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2016-08-24T01:21:55Z gabriel_laddel: has anyone worked with rucksack recently? I know it is partially incomplete, but I can't get it to work at all?
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2016-08-24T01:25:09Z gabriel_laddel: Hrm. Tests pass. Must be something I'm doing then.
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2016-08-24T01:39:06Z warweasle: Does anyone remember the number of entries where alists are faster than hash-tables?
2016-08-24T01:39:25Z warweasle: Is it more than 100?
2016-08-24T01:39:40Z Bike: it varies by system and use case
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2016-08-24T01:43:02Z warweasle: Bike: Ok, I'll fudge it and use hash tables. Thanks.
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2016-08-24T02:49:01Z kang00: What's lisp?
2016-08-24T02:49:35Z Bike: a programming language, as you can see from the topic
2016-08-24T02:50:07Z kang00: which is most similar?
2016-08-24T02:50:27Z Bike: What?
2016-08-24T02:50:29Z kang00: Python ruby c java or something else
2016-08-24T02:50:52Z kang00: Lisp~?
2016-08-24T02:51:22Z kang00: Lisp equivalent language?
2016-08-24T02:51:25Z kang00: Bike
2016-08-24T02:51:43Z Bike: it's hard to say which is "most similar" just in general, they're all pretty different systems
2016-08-24T02:52:18Z warweasle: I'm tempted to say Forth
2016-08-24T02:52:37Z warweasle: kang00: But that's just because the "macros" are almost as powerful as lisp's.
2016-08-24T02:52:46Z Bike: and i was going to say ruby, so we can see that there are problems with any answer
2016-08-24T02:53:13Z warweasle: kang00: Although, technically, every Turing complete language is equivalent.
2016-08-24T02:53:35Z warweasle: Technically correct: The *best* kind of correct.
2016-08-24T02:54:06Z cromachina: there is a lisp deep down in every language, even your soul
2016-08-24T02:54:14Z Bike: only if you assume that what someone actually needs to know is whether it matches the computational ability of magic the gathering
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2016-08-24T03:00:34Z VitoVan: kang00: when we ask "what's the equivalent language?", we should be more specific, equivalent in which aspect?
2016-08-24T03:00:56Z VitoVan: kang00: if it is all aspects equivalent, then it's a Lisp.
2016-08-24T03:02:12Z kang00: If some one has written a program in lisp language and Then converted it in Windows exe file
2016-08-24T03:02:28Z kang00: And I am on Windows system
2016-08-24T03:02:54Z kang00: When I use that exe file; do I need to download lisp software?
2016-08-24T03:03:08Z kang00: Or it can work without lisp
2016-08-24T03:03:08Z kang00: ?
2016-08-24T03:03:08Z cromachina: depends on the implementation
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2016-08-24T03:04:31Z kang00: Is same applicable for any language?
2016-08-24T03:05:11Z cromachina: sure, with varying degrees of effort
2016-08-24T03:05:13Z kang00: What is  implementation?
2016-08-24T03:05:14Z kang00: How many types of impl.?
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2016-08-24T03:05:55Z cromachina: common lisp is a specification, so an implementation of common lisp is a program that executes that specification
2016-08-24T03:06:11Z cromachina: sbcl, ccl, ecl, clisp, lispworks, for example
2016-08-24T03:06:12Z VitoVan: kang00: check this site, http://www.cliki.net/
2016-08-24T03:07:40Z kang00: cromachina
2016-08-24T03:07:40Z kang00: Are you from India or China?
2016-08-24T03:07:49Z cromachina: america
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2016-08-24T03:24:44Z loke__: cromachina: North or South america?
2016-08-24T03:25:04Z cromachina: north, united states
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2016-08-24T04:12:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-08-24T04:24:23Z jackdaniel: o/
2016-08-24T04:24:37Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2016-08-24T04:25:50Z jackdaniel: we're finally in a train :-)
2016-08-24T04:26:03Z beach: Congratulations!
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2016-08-24T04:26:19Z jackdaniel: thanks, that was exhausting two days
2016-08-24T04:26:36Z beach: I can imagine.
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2016-08-24T04:48:26Z kang00: Hi cromachina
2016-08-24T04:48:31Z kang00: I was disconnected
2016-08-24T04:49:32Z kang00: Which type of   implementations?
2016-08-24T04:49:41Z Bike: beach: i think my changes are mostly coherent enough for a pull request, but i don't know where to put transforms
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2016-08-24T04:50:25Z kang00: Do you remember about our past discussion Bike
2016-08-24T04:51:06Z Bike: what, like an hour ago? yes
2016-08-24T04:51:08Z beach: Bike: What kind of transforms?
2016-08-24T04:52:02Z Bike: the arc pruning on the HIR
2016-08-24T04:52:23Z Bike: right now i just have them in a file in the cleavir-type-inference package, because i was experimenting
2016-08-24T04:52:32Z beach: Oh, just leave it in the type-inference directory for now.
2016-08-24T04:53:39Z Bike: alright. should i load them as part of the asdf system?
2016-08-24T04:53:46Z beach: Sure.
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2016-08-24T04:56:32Z kang00: Bike yes 1 hour  before
2016-08-24T04:56:56Z kang00: Croma was telling me abt impl.
2016-08-24T04:57:05Z kang00: Do you know which type of it?
2016-08-24T04:57:21Z Bike: i don't know what you mean.
2016-08-24T04:57:34Z kang00: Do you have log?
2016-08-24T04:57:42Z Bike: yes.
2016-08-24T04:57:43Z kang00: If you can go thru it
2016-08-24T04:57:57Z kang00: Cromachin had sent some Message to me
2016-08-24T04:58:11Z Bike: yes, i read them and i still don't know what "Do you know which type of it?" means.
2016-08-24T04:58:22Z H4ns: kang00: can you just try to rephrase your question?
2016-08-24T04:58:36Z kang00: Can you explain explain me what he was trying to explain MN fee?
2016-08-24T04:58:41Z kang00: Me
2016-08-24T04:59:38Z Bike: uh... well, an "implementation" is an implementation of the common lisp standard. they have differences but they're all common lisp.
2016-08-24T04:59:43Z kang00: H4ns I guess context is inside 1 hour chat before;so it is hard to explain me the whole story.
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2016-08-24T05:01:08Z Bike: oh, neat, there's a merge conflict but it's against my own other pull request. i'm great at this
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2016-08-24T05:01:53Z beach: Heh!
2016-08-24T05:02:17Z kang00: So is there any implementation which can work without installing lisp? Bike
2016-08-24T05:02:54Z Bike: There are implementations that dump executables that don't require the entire lisp implementation to run, if that's what you mean.
2016-08-24T05:04:07Z kang00: Hmm
2016-08-24T05:04:07Z kang00: I think you are close to my query
2016-08-24T05:05:57Z beach: kang00: Every implementation of every non-trivial programming needs some kind of runtime.
2016-08-24T05:06:14Z beach: kang00: Some languages require more of the runtime than others.
2016-08-24T05:07:02Z beach: kang00: C requires the C library for things like I/O.  A more sophisticated language such as Common Lisp also requires memory management (i.e., garbage collection) and other support.
2016-08-24T05:07:22Z beach: kang00: Whether anything has to be installed or not depends on your operating system.
2016-08-24T05:07:50Z beach: kang00: As it turns out, most operating systems come with the C library already installed, but not with a Common Lisp runtime.
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2016-08-24T05:11:41Z kang00: Sorry bad network
2016-08-24T05:12:05Z beach: kang00: Do I need to repeat something?
2016-08-24T05:12:09Z kang00: I guess I can't understand properly yet as I am not coder. Beach
2016-08-24T05:12:30Z kang00: Hence there are new terms for me
2016-08-24T05:12:42Z kang00: So I prefer more layman s language
2016-08-24T05:12:48Z kang00: Or with an example
2016-08-24T05:13:28Z beach: If you are not a coder, none of this stuff should be an issue for you.
2016-08-24T05:13:53Z kang00: It is important for me to understand
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2016-08-24T05:16:55Z beach: kang00: Maybe if you ask more specific questions, then.  It is hard to guess what your existing knowledge is.
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2016-08-24T05:29:58Z Bike: aaaaand there we go, request'd.
2016-08-24T05:30:33Z Bike: +728-213, i am probably not going to be able to do that during school
2016-08-24T05:33:50Z beach: I got the pull request but it has conflicts.
2016-08-24T05:34:06Z beach: Since I am not so good with Git, it makes me a bit nervous.
2016-08-24T05:34:42Z Bike: yeah. like i said, it's one file, in the ast-to-source system. i think you just need to open up the file, look for the <<<< HEAD looking thing, and edit it to coherency.
2016-08-24T05:35:14Z beach: OK, hold on...
2016-08-24T05:37:03Z Bike: I'm not good with git either. This is the first time I've seriously used branches.
2016-08-24T05:37:25Z beach: I have no conflict in the AST-to-source system.
2016-08-24T05:37:26Z beach: :(
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2016-08-24T05:37:43Z haom: hello
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2016-08-24T05:37:58Z beach: Hello haom.
2016-08-24T05:38:17Z Bike: ok, let me see if i can fix it on my end...
2016-08-24T05:38:26Z haom: is there a way to make vector-push-extend enforce the arrays element-type, like it does for strings?
2016-08-24T05:38:45Z Bike: you mean, err if new-element doesn't fit?
2016-08-24T05:38:51Z haom: yes
2016-08-24T05:39:09Z beach: Bike: If you fail, I can just try to follow the instructions given by GitHub and hope for the best.
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2016-08-24T05:40:55Z beach: haom: I am pretty sure that it will be enforced, at least the actual array element type.
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2016-08-24T05:43:50Z Bike: OK, it says you can merge now.
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2016-08-24T05:44:17Z Bike: i think the history will look a bit dumb, but it should work
2016-08-24T05:44:57Z beach: YAY!
2016-08-24T05:45:01Z beach: Thanks!!!!!
2016-08-24T05:45:23Z Bike: good learning experience
2016-08-24T05:45:24Z haom: beach: try (defparameter a (make-array 0 :element-type 'integer :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t)), and then (vector-push-extend #\A a), it simply pushes the char to the integer-array.
2016-08-24T05:45:37Z Bike: the actual element type of the array is probably T
2016-08-24T05:45:45Z Bike: check (upgraded-array-element-type 'integer)
2016-08-24T05:45:48Z beach: haom: What Bike says.
2016-08-24T05:46:06Z Bike: integers are arbitrary length, so there's not much point in keeping them unboxed or anything
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2016-08-24T05:47:54Z haom: beach, this was just an example, it doesnt work with defclass-defined types too.
2016-08-24T05:48:06Z Bike: same problem
2016-08-24T05:48:22Z Bike: array types are more about the storage format than type checking
2016-08-24T05:48:24Z beach: haom: It will only work if the actual element type of the array is something other than T.
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2016-08-24T05:49:02Z haom: so how could i make the actual element of my array of only my given type?
2016-08-24T05:49:35Z pillton: Encapsulation.
2016-08-24T05:50:05Z beach: haom: You can do that only for types for which your implementation has a special representation of the array, such as BIT or perhaps (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8).
2016-08-24T05:50:09Z Bike: you can't, at least not in such a way that the behavior you want will occur transparently
2016-08-24T05:50:56Z beach: haom: Both INTEGER and subclasses of STANDARD-OBJECT will upgrade to actual array element type T.
2016-08-24T05:52:19Z haom: my defclass-defined type obviously also upgrades to t, i just wanted vector-push-extend to signal an error on a wrong object type.
2016-08-24T05:52:25Z beach: haom: The implementation is not required by the Common Lisp HyperSpec to keep the expressed array element type around nor to check for it.
2016-08-24T05:52:34Z haom: okay.
2016-08-24T05:52:44Z haom: thats what i wanted to know.
2016-08-24T05:52:57Z haom: at least sbcl doesnt do it.
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2016-08-24T05:53:17Z beach: I would be surprised if any major implementation did.
2016-08-24T05:53:28Z haom: ok
2016-08-24T05:53:49Z Bike: you could store the class with the array for a check, which i figure is what pillton meant, and use a function that checks the type before doing the regular vector push extend
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2016-08-24T15:55:51Z phoe: I watched myself some SICP today. Was surprisingly good.
2016-08-24T15:56:22Z phoe: Although (((((foo))))) is not the notation I'm used to.
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2016-08-24T16:04:45Z malice`: phoe: why surprisingly?
2016-08-24T16:04:52Z malice`: phoe: SICP has a good reputation
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2016-08-24T16:05:07Z beach: phoe: Yes, it's good.  Just not universally useful as an introduction.
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2016-08-24T16:22:25Z phoe: malice`: beach: I know its reputation and I know that it's good.
2016-08-24T16:22:30Z phoe: I just didn't expect it to be this *delicious*.
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2016-08-24T16:23:30Z beach: It is one of those things that will give you a lot of insight, provided you already have a great deal of it.
2016-08-24T16:24:35Z audrow: Hey, I'm looking for a linear algebra library for Common Lisp for an optimization task. Any thoughts? I'm between GSLL and LLA.
2016-08-24T16:25:00Z warweasle: audrow: Is it for graphics?
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2016-08-24T16:26:06Z audrow: No, it's for solving rigid body motion dynamics
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2016-08-24T16:28:23Z audrow: warweasle: It's for trying to find lowest energy way a rigid body can move, assuming it will move in the lowest energy way. It requires simple linear algebra: inversion, multiplication, LU decomposition, etc. However, for large matricies.
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2016-08-24T16:34:40Z pierpa: there exist a port to CL of all of numerical recipes. I don't remember the name of the package though.
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2016-08-24T16:38:19Z pipping: audrow: (this might be obvious but I've never dealt with problems such as yours myself) are the matrices sparse?
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2016-08-24T16:39:10Z pierpa: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/util/lang/lisp/code/math/numrecip/numrecip.cl
2016-08-24T16:40:13Z audrow: pipping: yes, they are often sparse
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2016-08-24T16:42:14Z audrow: pierpa: That seems useful. It seems to have a lot of the functionality that I am looking for. Do you know how it compares to GSLL or LLA?
2016-08-24T16:42:18Z pipping: audrow: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/femlisp.git/tree/src/matlisp might be worth a look
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2016-08-24T16:46:41Z audrow: pierpa and pipping: Is there a reason to favor libraries available on QuickLisp over source files such as those in links?
2016-08-24T16:48:03Z pipping: audrow: I meant to give you a glimpse of what features you could expect there. In the end I did expect you to (ql:quickload "femlisp") if you like what you see.
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2016-08-24T16:54:17Z pierpa: audrow: sorry, no, I don't know
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2016-08-24T16:59:03Z audrow: pipping: I see. Femlisp seems good. I think femlisp, LLA, and GSLL meet my requirements. Do you have any idea how to compare the performance of various libraries, short of trying them all?
2016-08-24T17:00:55Z akkad: femlisp library...
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2016-08-24T17:02:23Z audrow: pierpa: No worries. Thanks for suggesting the source file. It looks good. I'll consider it as an option. I feel a growing choice paralysis.
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2016-08-24T17:35:25Z pipping: akkad: ?
2016-08-24T17:36:40Z pipping: audrow: Fear not. I think your options are rather limited in this case actually ;)
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2016-08-24T17:47:10Z pipping: audrow: I find it difficult to judge in how healthy a state femlisp is, unfortunately.
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2016-08-24T17:51:10Z pipping: audrow: the log will immediately reveal that there's only one author. and while there are plenty of commits from 2016, there's none from 2011-2013, even though the project has been around for much longer. the author works at a university and even though he cannot call himself a professor (and thus probably has no funding for a working group), there appears to be a phd student (just guessing here) from the same
2016-08-24T17:51:12Z pipping: uni working on it, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--gqVzhLYoI
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2016-08-24T17:54:31Z audrow: pipping: Ah, looking at the log is a good way to check health. I'm a little disconcerted that it is just a possible professor and phd student. I'm going to start investigating my options a bit deeper. Thank you for your help!
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2016-08-24T17:56:59Z pipping: audrow: I might be doing the project injustice. maybe the phd student is really a postdoc. and maybe they're spending all their energy on this. The aims in the video are very ambituous for just two people, I find
2016-08-24T17:57:38Z raydeejay: and maybe it doesn't really matter... two people good at it are usually better than twenty not so good at it
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2016-08-24T18:09:43Z blub: does anyone know why let and destructuring-bind are separate in common lisp ?
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2016-08-24T18:10:25Z blub: in maclisp, let served for both, so it seems strange to me that they separated them
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2016-08-24T18:17:26Z phoe: blub: METABANG-BIND "fixes" this.
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2016-08-24T18:18:27Z pipping: let+ (https://github.com/tpapp/let-plus) does, too
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2016-08-24T18:19:18Z oGMo: let-plus is neat, though .. i never actually seem to use it
2016-08-24T18:19:22Z beach: blub: It might have to do with the multiple heritage of Common Lisp.  They tried to be compatible with other dialects as well.
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2016-08-24T18:34:36Z pierpa: everyone has their own macros to unify let*, multiple-values, destructuring...
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2016-08-24T18:50:57Z rpg: Is there any way to claw your way back from the *load-truename* for a FASL to the pathname of the source file?
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2016-08-24T19:12:21Z pipping: rpg: oh, hi!
2016-08-24T19:12:35Z rpg: pipping: HI!
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2016-08-24T19:20:56Z rpg: pipping: You'
2016-08-24T19:21:10Z rpg: ll see all these years later, I have stubbed my toe on a new issue.
2016-08-24T19:22:33Z pipping: I saw your email. Looks pretty bad :/
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2016-08-24T19:23:15Z rpg: it never occurred to me that ASDF's output translations would break use of *load-truename*, although it should have.
2016-08-24T19:23:55Z rpg: I think I could make ASDF expose source information by binding YA dynamic variable for the user's benefit, but it's unfortunate
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2016-08-24T19:26:07Z akkad: controlling the dino with cl. nice
2016-08-24T19:27:08Z Xach: i like that article
2016-08-24T19:27:12Z Xach: using clx is a good hack
2016-08-24T19:30:20Z pipping: rpg: the good news is: even if you had thought of it, that wouldn't have helped, though.
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2016-08-24T19:36:21Z rumbler31: I didn't even know that chrome thing existed
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2016-08-24T19:36:35Z rumbler31: cool to see it can actually be done, now I have no more excuses lol
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2016-08-24T19:37:08Z Xach: I didn't know about it until a month or two ago when my son showed me
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2016-08-24T19:37:24Z rumbler31: Xach: did you figure out your issue re. run-program?
2016-08-24T19:37:55Z Xach: rumbler31: I am holding my nose and using PROGRA~2 paths
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2016-08-24T19:38:19Z rpg: Xach: what was the issue?
2016-08-24T19:38:34Z Xach: rpg: errors from run-program when using pathnames with spaces
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2016-08-24T19:38:51Z Xach: tried many variations of quoting, cmd.exe indirection, but never got it working.
2016-08-24T19:39:00Z rpg: Xach: I have been having these, too. Windows, right?
2016-08-24T19:39:04Z Xach: yes
2016-08-24T19:39:35Z rumbler31: when I get back to my windows machine I'll play around with it some more
2016-08-24T19:40:22Z rpg: I don't think it's entirely ASDF -- Jens and I were trying to get the bash scripts for asdf building to go on Windows, and banged ourselves on pathnames with spaces there, too.
2016-08-24T19:40:52Z rpg: cygwin wasn't able to deal with those names, either!
2016-08-24T19:40:58Z akkad: windows supported?
2016-08-24T19:41:12Z rpg: akkad: ??
2016-08-24T19:41:24Z Xach: I'm happy to use CCL:RUN-PROGRAM directly but no luck.
2016-08-24T19:41:25Z akkad: on ql? last time I asked about it, I got "don't use windows" from X
2016-08-24T19:41:42Z Xach: akkad: Quicklisp works fine on Windows.
2016-08-24T19:41:55Z rpg: akkad: ASDF is supported on Windows, but we have troubles maintaining and testing.
2016-08-24T19:42:09Z Xach: The major problem I have is a mismatch between Windows, Emacs, and Lisp when it comes to the home directory.
2016-08-24T19:42:16Z akkad: Xach you are pro windows now? ;p
2016-08-24T19:42:28Z rumbler31: yes Xach I've fought with that too
2016-08-24T19:42:59Z Xach: akkad: I have worked to make Quicklisp work on Windows since the beginning. Some of the design is in reaction to asdf-install's "you're SOL if you don't have unix programs" implementation
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2016-08-24T19:45:31Z akkad: yeah i was using cygwin emacs32 and everything but slime would work properly.
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2016-08-24T19:46:10Z Xach: I haven't tried using cygwin.
2016-08-24T19:52:10Z rpg: For ASDF we have been stuck using cygwin, because of the fact that our build infra is make and bash
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2016-08-24T19:53:01Z rumbler31: apparently ms now has ported bash to some versions of windows.  I haven't played with it at all, but did you hear, and have you tried it?
2016-08-24T19:53:21Z rpg: translating to cmd.exe or powershell seems unappealing, and Fare's translation to CL didn't work for me.
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2016-08-24T20:00:02Z rumbler31: ah, its windows 10 only
2016-08-24T20:00:03Z pipping: rumbler31: that's windows >=10 and disabled by default though, right?
2016-08-24T20:00:35Z rumbler31: ahh, windows 10 64bit only, and yes you have to go in and enable it
2016-08-24T20:00:54Z rumbler31: which downloads it from the windows store
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2016-08-24T20:04:13Z rumbler31: if it works, its at least one way to test on windows
2016-08-24T20:04:24Z Grue`: I wonder why ASDF looks for config files in c:/Users/<username>/AppData/Local/config/common-lisp on Windows, it's almost impossible to guess
2016-08-24T20:06:54Z pipping: Grue`: If you write it as %localappdata%/config/common-lisp it seems less arbitrary and incomprehensible. It is app data and it's local. Leaves only the 'config' to argue about ;)
2016-08-24T20:06:54Z Grue`: it's even a somewhat recent change, ~/.config/common-lisp/ used to work from Emacs in earlier 3.0s
2016-08-24T20:07:06Z rpg: Grue`: this is because it's trying to parallel XDG which is .... a linux-only thing and maps poorly
2016-08-24T20:07:27Z rpg: Grue`: catch me later -- I have to go AFK for a while.
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2016-08-24T20:08:55Z Grue`: pipping: its the lack of dot before config that mostly bothers me
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2016-08-24T21:59:46Z ggt: hi lisp alians
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2016-08-24T22:06:50Z knobo:  
2016-08-24T22:08:25Z doesthiswork:   
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2016-08-24T22:09:49Z pjb: Grue`: as long as you define $XDG_CONFIG_HOME,  you can put your configurations wherever you want, including a dotless directory ;-)
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2016-08-24T22:10:40Z pjb: Grue`: https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-0.6.html
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