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2016-08-20T03:22:39Z indoor_jellyfish: Is McCLIM the most well-funded common lisp project?
2016-08-20T03:23:01Z akkad: yes.
2016-08-20T03:23:19Z indoor_jellyfish: heh heh heh
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2016-08-20T03:24:12Z Bike: well, clasp has dod grants or whatever, who knows.
2016-08-20T03:25:27Z akkad: clasp is a project to watch
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2016-08-20T03:25:52Z indoor_jellyfish: I looked into it - meh
2016-08-20T03:25:59Z indoor_jellyfish: why on earth would I want C++ in my life?
2016-08-20T03:26:24Z indoor_jellyfish: I mean, yeah, I get it 'libraries' for molecule generation via functional group placement, but wtf
2016-08-20T03:26:29Z Bike: thanks for your take, i guess.
2016-08-20T03:26:32Z indoor_jellyfish: I'd rather just re-write everything
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2016-08-20T04:06:17Z jasom: akkad: I don't run obsd if that's why you mentioned me
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2016-08-20T04:24:54Z akkad: jasom: sorry, thought you were the openbsd dev
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2016-08-20T04:55:39Z drmeister: Hey Bike - I'm working on the clang discovery issue.  Shinmera and I wrote code to discover the clang compiler but it wasn't taking into account externals-clasp.   I've added the code to do that.   We wrote it previously in a few glorious days when Clasp worked with a standard release of clang.
2016-08-20T04:55:54Z drmeister: I'm testing it tonight - I should have it working tomorrow.
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2016-08-20T04:58:01Z Bike: ok, cool.
2016-08-20T04:58:23Z Bike: i tried running make devshell and copying out the environment so i could set everything in a shell script and just use that, but it didn't work for whatever reason.
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2016-08-20T05:11:51Z drmeister: I think it needed the externals-clasp executable directory <externals-clasp>/build/release/bin in the PATH
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2016-08-20T05:12:04Z drmeister: But the changes I made shouldn't require even that.
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2016-08-20T05:17:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-08-20T05:17:23Z minion: beach, memo from Bike: reverse transfers might be nice, especially in unsafe code. failing that, less hostile instruction ordering. http://i.imgur.com/b42wAdT.png (Bonus problem: values types are weird, huh?)
2016-08-20T05:17:24Z minion: beach, memo from Bike: actually, the THE thing might be the root issue. THE can't work in general if it has to M->F first anyway. i don't understand ast-to-hir enough to do anything, though.
2016-08-20T05:18:44Z beach: Bike: I don't think THE has been tested very much.
2016-08-20T05:19:11Z Bike: heh, i noticed!
2016-08-20T05:19:22Z Bike: but it's nice for, say, knowing that error calls never return
2016-08-20T05:19:56Z beach: As in (the nil (error...))?
2016-08-20T05:20:26Z Bike: yeah. if i can cut off that pathway then, say, (car x) (cdr x) should be able to elide at least one of the typeqs immediately
2016-08-20T05:21:11Z beach: Sure, yes.
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2016-08-20T05:31:59Z Bike: so is there some way i can have the-instructions take a values-location as input?
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2016-08-20T05:33:20Z beach: I don't think so at the moment.
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2016-08-20T05:45:30Z Bike: hm. unfortunate. well, at least it's at the point of simple type propagation working, from typeq.
2016-08-20T05:45:52Z beach: Great!
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2016-08-20T06:06:59Z shrdlu68: I'me getting invalid "cross-device link" trying to (rename #P"/tmp/foo" #P"/home/bar")
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2016-08-20T06:08:31Z H4ns: shrdlu68: that is because rename(2) can only rename files, not copy them.
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2016-08-20T06:10:10Z shrdlu68: H4ns: The lisp primitive `rename`.
2016-08-20T06:10:23Z H4ns: shrdlu68: if you want to move a file to a different file system, cl-fad:copy-file and delete-file may help
2016-08-20T06:10:33Z H4ns: shrdlu68: there is no "lisp primitive `rename`"
2016-08-20T06:10:34Z Bike: it doesn't have one. there's cl:rename-file
2016-08-20T06:10:35Z shrdlu68: I did try (rename #P"/tmp/foo"  #P"/home/bar"
2016-08-20T06:11:01Z shrdlu68: Bike: Yeah, rename-file. Sleep deprivation :)
2016-08-20T06:11:39Z H4ns: shrdlu68: same problem, same solution.
2016-08-20T06:12:16Z H4ns: shrdlu68: renaming a file is conceptioally different from relocating it in the file system tree, at least from the understanding of file systems in common lisp.
2016-08-20T06:12:33Z shrdlu68: (rename-file #P"/home/foo" #P"/home/bar") works...
2016-08-20T06:12:50Z H4ns: shrdlu68: right, because just the name of the file changes, not the directory.
2016-08-20T06:13:18Z shrdlu68: "rename-file modifies the file system in such a way that the file indicated by filespec is renamed to defaulted-new-name."
2016-08-20T06:13:42Z Bike: that doesn't mean it can change directory
2016-08-20T06:13:46Z H4ns: shrdlu68: right.  (pathname-name "/tmp/foo") => "foo"
2016-08-20T06:14:28Z H4ns: shrdlu68: the spec is not more explicit because back in the day, nobody would ever think that someone could consider the directory to be part of the name of a file.
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2016-08-20T06:16:45Z shrdlu68: H4ns: (rename-file #P"/home/automaton/foo" #P"/home/automaton/bar/baz")
2016-08-20T06:17:01Z H4ns: shrdlu68: and even if you'd manage to get the problem "fixed" in your implemnetation, it is very likely that other implementations expose the same behavior, so i'd suggest that you rather consider rename to only reliably work on the file name and use copy+delete.
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2016-08-20T06:17:39Z H4ns: shrdlu68: you can stop posting examples where rename works across directories.  it is purely incidential to how unix works.
2016-08-20T06:18:40Z H4ns: shrdlu68: i understand that what you observe is undesireable and i agree that the spec is not explicit enough, yet that is how things are and what you see is not a bug that can be fixed.
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2016-08-20T06:20:56Z shrdlu68: H4ns: Is there a way to move files as fast as the OS does it (`mv`) in lisp?
2016-08-20T06:21:09Z shrdlu68: Without calling a shell, that is.
2016-08-20T06:22:49Z H4ns: shrdlu68: "as fast" no, because mv is implemented in c and does the "copy-file and rename" operation for you.  but as i wrote, you can use cl-fad:copy-file and cl:rename-file.
2016-08-20T06:24:45Z H4ns: shrdlu68: https://opensource.apple.com/source/file_cmds/file_cmds-242/mv/mv.c
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2016-08-20T09:08:52Z PosterdatiMobile: hi
2016-08-20T09:09:39Z PosterdatiMobile: aeth: so at least slime 2.18 + emacs 24.5 + openbsd 5.9 for i386 works, but at create-repl I have to do C-g an C-c
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2016-08-20T09:25:38Z Harag:  http://paste.lisp.org/+6XRV
2016-08-20T09:26:05Z Harag: Should the order of code matter?
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2016-08-20T09:46:16Z edgar-rft: Harag: Writing *eish* with "earmuff" asterisks doesn't make *eish* a dynamically-bound "special" variable. Only DEFVAR, DEFPARAMETER, or DEFCONSTANT create such variables. If you want *eish* to be treatened as a special variable *before* the DEFVAR you need to DECLARE it as SPECIAL. See the annotation at <http://paste.lisp.org/display/323707#1> how this works.
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2016-08-20T09:48:17Z Harag: will look into that thanx, but why would changing the order of the code work?
2016-08-20T09:48:27Z PosterdatiMobile: jrx: sbcl from binary packages?
2016-08-20T09:50:31Z edgar-rft: Harag: because DEVAR implicitely (invisibly) declares *eish* as SPECIAL.
2016-08-20T09:51:13Z Harag: so the order of the code matters
2016-08-20T09:51:41Z edgar-rft: Harag: without the (declare (special *eish*)) the (let ((*eish* ...)) ...) creates a lexical variable *eish*, not a dynamically-bound special variable if there had been no (defvar *eish*) or (defparameter *eish*) before.
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2016-08-20T09:52:26Z edgar-rft: Harag: The order of declaration matters (what in this case is the order of code).
2016-08-20T09:52:44Z Harag: edgar-rft: thanx
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2016-08-20T16:19:43Z mishoo: anyone know how to mitigate a SBCL compilation note like this?
2016-08-20T16:19:44Z mishoo: ; note: Allocating a value-cell at runtime for checking possibly out of extent exit via
2016-08-20T16:19:44Z mishoo: ; (RETURN-FROM DRAW-BY-MATERIAL? NIL). Use GO/RETURN-FROM with SAFETY 0, or
2016-08-20T16:19:44Z mishoo: ; declare the exit function DYNAMIC-EXTENT to avoid.
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2016-08-20T16:27:11Z cromachina: it says what you could do right there
2016-08-20T16:27:48Z jackdaniel: can the displaced array have different element type then the original one?
2016-08-20T16:29:29Z cromachina: nope
2016-08-20T16:29:48Z cromachina: you have to specify the same element type, unless it's t
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2016-08-20T16:30:18Z cromachina: wait did i miss something
2016-08-20T16:32:14Z jackdaniel: "the consequences are undefined if the actual array element type of displaced-to is not type equivalent to the actual array element type of the array being created"
2016-08-20T16:32:17Z jackdaniel: shame
2016-08-20T16:32:20Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2016-08-20T16:37:31Z cromachina: if you are doing C style casts with machine width types, perhaps a foreign array would be more suitable?
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2016-08-20T18:47:21Z nalik:  /help
2016-08-20T18:47:32Z nalik: #lisp
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2016-08-20T19:04:41Z pjb: nalik: we can help, if you ask a question.
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2016-08-20T19:44:28Z jason_m: I have two .asd files in the same directory under quicklisp/local-projects. ql can find one of them, but not the other. I get a System "foo" not found error. Outside of eyeballing the asd file, I'm not sure how to further troubleshoot this.
2016-08-20T19:45:14Z XachX_: jason_m: you did register local projects?
2016-08-20T19:46:48Z jason_m: XachX_: I did not, but I see the function now.
2016-08-20T19:50:20Z jason_m: That did the trick, thanks XachX_.
2016-08-20T19:51:17Z jason_m: Typically I just drop a project into local-projects and it all "just works".  When should one run register-local-projects?
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2016-08-20T20:14:10Z sjl: is there a function built-in or in alexandria/quickutils that does something like (mapcar (lambda (args) (apply function args)) list) ?
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2016-08-20T20:14:26Z sjl: like mapcar, but instead of (funcall fn args) it does (apply fn args)?
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2016-08-20T20:19:40Z Th30n: sjl: Afaik no, but this sounds a bit like a variant on alexandria:mappend function
2016-08-20T20:21:16Z sjl: hmm
2016-08-20T20:21:26Z sjl: yeah that's not quite what I need
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2016-08-20T20:22:29Z sjl: actually (mapcar (curry #'apply function) list) is a more succinct description
2016-08-20T20:22:41Z sjl: maybe I'll just use that
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2016-08-20T20:24:09Z Th30n: Haskell Curry ftw :)
2016-08-20T20:24:41Z sjl: (not-actually-curry #'apply function)
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2016-08-20T20:26:12Z sjl: (schonfinkel ...)
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2016-08-20T21:12:56Z shrdlu68 notes CL code is positively easier to read
2016-08-20T21:15:50Z raydeejay: you can write pretty messed up CL if you put your mind to it
2016-08-20T21:17:07Z warweasle: Macros are the ICBMs of obfuscation.
2016-08-20T21:17:19Z shrdlu68: Of course, but I just realized I was reading whole source files without any distress.
2016-08-20T21:18:04Z shrdlu68: It could be that it's just well-written code but...
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2016-08-20T21:31:07Z knobo: Funny how people saying bad things about lisp hurt my fealings.
2016-08-20T21:31:33Z knobo: I did not know, because I've never heard anyone say anything bad about lisp before..
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2016-08-20T21:32:03Z raydeejay: here's my personal advice: ignore it
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2016-08-20T21:41:30Z takitus: warweasle: Thanks, that is going in my fortune file
2016-08-20T21:45:17Z alphor: wiki says Frege used it before schonfinkel
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2016-08-20T21:45:52Z alphor: and as we all know, wikipedia is undisputable fact. it says so, right on the homepage.
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2016-08-20T22:31:59Z knobo: (apply #'make-instance (list 'class-name :key value)) should work...
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2016-08-20T22:36:43Z knobo: looks like a problem with some literals.
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2016-08-20T22:49:09Z sharkteeth: possible dumb question: I'm learning about arrays and vectors right now, and i've yet to see any good reason to use them over good old lists. Am I missing something? Speed? Particular uses for one type (sequence/array/vector or list) over another?
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2016-08-20T22:52:28Z rumbler31: if a list is an abstraction over cons cells, i imagine that an array *can* be treated as an abstraction over sequential memory locations if you provide enough type information and compilation settings
2016-08-20T22:52:38Z rumbler31: and probably is
2016-08-20T22:53:12Z rme: sharkteeth: Lists are linked lists.  So, access to an arbitrry element is not constant-time.  In arrays, it is.
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2016-08-20T22:53:52Z rme: Also, arrays can be specialized for particular types (e.g., (unsigned-byte 8), complex, whatever).
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2016-08-20T22:54:24Z sharkteeth: by constant-time i assume you mean that an element in the list is guaranteed to be in the same space in memory over its life?
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2016-08-20T22:55:23Z rumbler31: maybe not the same place, but by the time your code goes to access a particular place, it will always be the same offset from whatever base
2016-08-20T22:55:24Z sharkteeth: does that even matter since lisp variables are passed by value and not reference (again, pardon the ignorance)
2016-08-20T22:55:36Z raydeejay: I would have read that he means O(1)
2016-08-20T22:55:44Z sharkteeth: i guess i'm not understanding the importance/impact
2016-08-20T22:56:05Z rumbler31: well with a linked list, how do you get to any particular element
2016-08-20T22:56:10Z rme: No, I mean (aref a i) will take the same amount of time no matter what i is.  (nth n some-list) has to chase pointers from the head of the list all the way to the n-th element.  O(1) vs. O(n) in other words, if that makes sense to you.
2016-08-20T22:56:55Z rme: If you're just traversing the whole list, no big deal.  But lists are a bad data structure when you need random access to the elements.
2016-08-20T22:56:56Z sharkteeth: ah ok
2016-08-20T22:57:08Z sharkteeth: that makes sense
2016-08-20T22:58:58Z sharkteeth: thanks a bunch
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2016-08-20T23:02:09Z alphor: rme: what about just 3 or 4 elements? practical common lisp described property lists as a poor mans hash table. well how rich do I have to be to justify using a hash table (or an array, when i have indexes) instead?
2016-08-20T23:03:36Z alphor: there's (albeit very little I'm sure) computational overhead for using a hash table for everything, and there's definitely more memory requirements
2016-08-20T23:03:43Z sjl: alphor: probably depends on the implementation and how its hash tables are implemented
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2016-08-20T23:05:44Z alphor: but is using a linked list for 3 or 4 elements okay?
2016-08-20T23:06:14Z raydeejay: well, it's the cost of following 3 references, more or less
2016-08-20T23:08:08Z alphor: I guess it's too situational to have a concrete answer, especially if I ask about adding elements.
2016-08-20T23:08:23Z raydeejay: if you definitely need random access a lot, you're probably better off with an array, if you definitely need to traverse the whole collection you're probably better off with a linked list, in general, for most languages
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2016-08-20T23:10:52Z alphor: okay, that clarifies it. thanks .
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2016-08-20T23:33:06Z rme: alphor: alists/plist vs. a hash table is a somewhat different question.  You'd have to measure to be sure, but I'd expect a plist/alist to be faster than a hash table for small lists.
2016-08-20T23:33:48Z raydeejay: rme: I guess that alphor has the same question I ask myself whenever I come across similar words
2016-08-20T23:33:56Z rme: :-)
2016-08-20T23:34:02Z raydeejay: how small is small, and when does it become big?
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2016-08-20T23:34:36Z dvxd: I wonder how inefficient it would be to implement plists as rb-trees.
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