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2016-08-12T00:06:15Z jaykru: anyone know why (type-of -) returns CONS
2016-08-12T00:06:24Z jaykru: found this on accident but now I'm very curious
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2016-08-12T00:09:05Z Bike: clhs -
2016-08-12T00:09:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a__.htm
2016-08-12T00:09:13Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v__.htm checkit
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2016-08-12T00:10:23Z Bike: i guess it's too magical to find out on your own. (cdr -) => (-), (car (cdr -)) => (CDR -)
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2016-08-12T00:11:45Z jaykru: oh wow that's weird
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2016-08-12T00:12:00Z mejja: Maybe (type-of #'-)is what you want
2016-08-12T00:12:10Z jaykru: didn't really think to touch it with a function
2016-08-12T00:12:41Z Bike: it's related to the +, /, * variables.
2016-08-12T00:12:47Z Bike: * in particular is really useful.
2016-08-12T00:13:05Z jaykru: mejja: it was actually a typo that led me to finding it
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2016-08-12T02:52:20Z akkad: which sql package is currently considered most used?
2016-08-12T02:53:14Z loke: akkad: Unfortunately, nothing really generic
2016-08-12T02:53:29Z loke: People use stuff like Postmodern
2016-08-12T02:53:48Z akkad: right. I am currently. guess I can fix the issue I currently have with auth
2016-08-12T02:54:00Z loke: auth of what?
2016-08-12T02:54:56Z akkad: issue on allegro returning auth error.
2016-08-12T02:55:11Z loke: akkad: With Postmodern? What auth moethod are you using?
2016-08-12T02:55:44Z akkad: yes, postmodern. and password auth is failing. but only on allegro. the same code works fine on sbcl/lw/ccl
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2016-08-12T02:56:08Z loke: OK
2016-08-12T02:56:17Z loke: I implemented the GSSAPI authentication in Postmodern.
2016-08-12T02:56:32Z akkad: ok. would a backtrace help?
2016-08-12T02:57:32Z loke: akkad: If it's for password auth, not really. I'd have to research as much as you do.
2016-08-12T02:57:39Z loke: But, what is the error you're getting?
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2016-08-12T02:59:29Z akkad: Database error 28P01: password authentication failed for user "metis"
2016-08-12T02:59:29Z akkad:  
2016-08-12T02:59:59Z akkad: yet. digging in I see all the values are proper. something else is wrong. just digging
2016-08-12T03:00:05Z loke: 28P01 is "invalid password"
2016-08-12T03:00:13Z akkad: yes
2016-08-12T03:00:34Z akkad: however. this code, and all those values are valid and work on the other
2016-08-12T03:00:37Z loke: Using Kerberos authentication is much more awesomer :-)
2016-08-12T03:01:22Z akkad: yeah... I've done enough krb work with asn1 in wiresharlk
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2016-08-12T03:03:39Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/b2614c4e3ec4190bf7006fd4ee5eb1d6 is most expanded. will have to review it later to compare. the values appeared the same as those that worked however.
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2016-08-12T03:06:04Z loke: akkad: Has this ever worked before?
2016-08-12T03:06:18Z loke: I'm refamiliarising myself with the protocol implementation in postmodern
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2016-08-12T04:08:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-08-12T04:12:58Z nalik89: morning!
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2016-08-12T04:24:46Z loke: Hello beachzor
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2016-08-12T05:17:35Z beach: Maybe I should spend less time coding and more time explaining what I think should be done and why.  It might be more productive for me to pay someone (as I now do with jackdaniel) to do most of the coding for me.
2016-08-12T05:21:22Z pierpa: GASP! you are on the road of becoming a suit!
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2016-08-12T05:22:29Z beach: Hmm.
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2016-08-12T05:24:01Z beach: I guess I don't care so much about labels; only about getting things done.
2016-08-12T05:27:11Z pierpa: Just kidding. Yes, delegating things accomplishes more.
2016-08-12T05:27:59Z jackdaniel: beach: how is your book btw?
2016-08-12T05:28:08Z beach: Which one? :)
2016-08-12T05:28:17Z beach: I have about 10 books going.
2016-08-12T05:29:33Z beach: Related to Common Lisp: intro Common Lisp programming, advanced Common Lisp programming, CLOS programming, Common Lisp for language implementers, Common Lisp MOP programming.
2016-08-12T05:29:43Z beach: That's 5.
2016-08-12T05:30:09Z jackdaniel: let's say how is the most complete one ;)
2016-08-12T05:30:41Z beach: Ah, that would be "Concrete and Abstract Data Types."  It as been 95% done for a few years now.
2016-08-12T05:30:56Z pierpa: any "Future of CL" book in the work?
2016-08-12T05:31:03Z beach: Nope.
2016-08-12T05:31:27Z pierpa: damn
2016-08-12T05:31:56Z jackdaniel: beach: do you expect to finish it anytime soon?
2016-08-12T05:32:04Z beach: pierpa: So there is a niche for you.
2016-08-12T05:32:20Z jackdaniel: btw, ECL has Haiku port
2016-08-12T05:32:38Z beach: jackdaniel: I am not working on it actively right now.  It would take a solid month of full-time work I think.
2016-08-12T05:32:40Z pierpa: :)
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2016-08-12T05:40:24Z jackdaniel: beach: I would put the 5 books you've mentioned (or 4 of them) under the same title: "Common Lisp programming" and make them volumes with subtitles "Intro", "Adanced techniques", "Common Lisp Object System", "Meta-object protocol", and eventually "Language implementer techniques"
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2016-08-12T05:40:53Z jackdaniel: it'd look marvelous on the bookshelf (and hopefully will be a very good read :)
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2016-08-12T05:47:10Z beach: That's an idea.  I'll think about it.
2016-08-12T05:47:21Z beach: Since I am using self publishing, I can do what I want.
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2016-08-12T07:52:59Z flip214: beach: in case you want/need a reviewer, I'm good at finding typos.
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2016-08-12T07:55:31Z beach: flip214: Oh, thanks!  That's a nice offer.  I may take you up on that.
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2016-08-12T08:09:05Z dim: I did find the intro to CL in PAIP quite good and to the point, to be fair
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2016-08-12T08:12:53Z beach: Norvig is a good writer.  I can't remember reading that intro, though.
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2016-08-12T08:15:42Z jdz: i think i'm also good at spotting typos
2016-08-12T08:15:54Z dim: you might have skipped it, as it's prominently written you don't need to read it if you already know how to use CL (IIRC)
2016-08-12T08:16:08Z beach: dim: I think that is what happened, yes.
2016-08-12T08:16:17Z jdz: also, good morning!
2016-08-12T08:16:25Z beach: Hello jdz.
2016-08-12T08:16:53Z dim: in the context of writing a comparable intro, I think you should read that one, I have a very good memory of it
2016-08-12T08:17:17Z dim: sorry I mean I found it very good (ah, translations)
2016-08-12T08:18:08Z beach: Sounds like a good idea.
2016-08-12T08:18:21Z dim: Part I, Introduction to Common Lisp, goes on for 100 pages
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2016-08-12T08:23:22Z des_consolado: Hey any slime users? I've got a couple of questions about this mode and the REPL mode: 1) I've been using slime-eval-last-expression-in-repl, this seems to eval the expression before the cursor in the REPL in the adjacent window which is cool, I can't find a function to eval all of the code in the buffer in the REPL though, I guess it would be slime-eval-buffer-in-repl or slime-eval-region-in-repl if
2016-08-12T08:23:28Z des_consolado: we used mark but this doesn't exist I don't think?
2016-08-12T08:23:59Z des_consolado: 2) In REPL mode are there some functions for sending some of the history to the buffer with the file open or something? What's the workflow for when you're REPLing but then you want to take some of the history and save it in a file?
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2016-08-12T08:24:22Z loke: des_consolado: If you have an entire source file and you'd like to compile and load it, use C-c C-k
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2016-08-12T08:25:43Z des_consolado: Ah yeah that does the trick
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2016-08-12T08:26:47Z des_consolado: And what about grabbing parts of the REPL history across to the other buffer with the file open?
2016-08-12T08:27:33Z dim: des_consolado: C-c C-l is what I use to send a whole buffer
2016-08-12T08:27:48Z jdz: des_consolado: You can do whatever you do in Emacs to copy text around in Emacs.
2016-08-12T08:27:49Z dim: C-c C-k will leave .fasl files around
2016-08-12T08:28:35Z dim: the workflow I use is to edit files directly and rely on C-M-x to evaluate pieces of code, then test them in the REPL
2016-08-12T08:28:47Z jdz: I have a (setq slime-compile-file-options '(:fasl-directory "/tmp/slime-fasls/")) in my slime config.
2016-08-12T08:28:50Z dim: I seldom write anything in the REPL that I would want to have in the source files
2016-08-12T08:29:16Z dim: jdz: does that prevent cache invalidation problems?
2016-08-12T08:29:48Z jdz: dim: not sure what you mean -- that's mainly for C-c C-k.
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2016-08-12T08:31:34Z dim: it happened to me in the past that SBCL or the underlying CL would sometimes load an older fasl file rather than the code I've been editing
2016-08-12T08:31:50Z dim: anyway, I rely on C-c C-l nowadays
2016-08-12T08:32:00Z dim: (actually C-M-x mainly)
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2016-08-12T08:34:12Z jdz: The only way to load an older fasl seems to be to introduce an error in the file so that a fasl file is not actually produced (i.e., the old one not being overwritten)
2016-08-12T08:34:37Z jdz: But at least for me slime asks if I want to load the file that had errors when compiling...
2016-08-12T08:34:52Z dim: I might remember wrong from my early days too
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2016-08-12T09:15:59Z [6502]: yo! ... something a little heretic: I find docstrings and (declare ...) making things complex when manipulating code, isn't the clojure idea of attaching meta-information directly to symbols/forms better that CL solution?
2016-08-12T09:17:16Z beach: [6502]: I don't know what Clojure does, but I much prefer to use (SETF DOCUMENTATION) instead of putting docstrings with the code.
2016-08-12T09:18:48Z [6502]: beach: IIRC clojure just has a reader macros that allow attaching metainformation during the read phase, and the parsed form remains "clean"
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2016-08-12T09:19:54Z [6502]: beach: something along the idea of (lambda (x[ignorable]) 42)
2016-08-12T09:21:28Z [6502]: beach: parsed form becomes (lambda (x) 42) but the "ignorable" metainformation is attached to that instance of the symbol x
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2016-08-12T09:27:23Z [6502]: beach: clojure syntax would be (lambda (^:ignorable x) 42)
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2016-08-12T09:30:23Z Grue``: what about other instances of x in the same package?
2016-08-12T09:30:48Z beach: [6502]: For your idea to work, you would have to decide how the resulting S-expression looks.
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2016-08-12T09:32:21Z beach: ... unless you want to abandon homoiconicity.
2016-08-12T09:38:16Z [6502]: beach: IIUC clojure expands to (lambda ((with-meta x {:ignorable true})) 42)
2016-08-12T09:38:38Z [6502]: not much easier tohandle than (declare ...) after all
2016-08-12T09:40:30Z [6502]: {} is map literal in clojure
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2016-08-12T09:43:46Z [6502]: declare seems so "un-lispy" :-(
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2016-08-12T09:47:50Z Grue``: how about adding new & keywords to defun, for example (defun foo (x &declare (ignorable x) &documentation "does foo") ..)
2016-08-12T09:47:54Z jdz: [6502]: on the other hand since the declarations are optional it's easy to manage them when they're separate; also for type annotations one can annotate multiple variables with one declaration.
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2016-08-12T09:48:55Z jdz: Also easier to turn the declarations on and off by commenting them out.
2016-08-12T09:49:18Z jdz: Common Lisp has never been about ease of implementation.
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2016-08-12T09:50:25Z jdz: (Strong claims from somebody not even knowing about the existence of CL when it was being standardised.)
2016-08-12T09:51:45Z jackdaniel: jdz: no worries, I've learned about CL around 2011 :-)
2016-08-12T09:52:31Z [6502]: jdz: may be indeed there's no solution both regular and nice for humans to use ... when manipulating code however docstrings and declare are really annoying
2016-08-12T09:52:55Z [6502]: jdz: you may indeed even need to split a (declare ...) in multiple forms
2016-08-12T09:53:15Z |3b|: declare has the (possibly not actually useful) advantage of being able to have multiple scoped declarations apply to a specific variable
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2016-08-12T09:54:11Z |3b|: (defun foo (x) (declare (number x)) ... (locally (declare (fixnum x)) ...) ...)
2016-08-12T09:54:30Z dim: beach: I can't get to understand the advantage of (setf documentation), I really like to have short docstrings available right when I read the code, I still see them as specific comments
2016-08-12T09:54:40Z [6502]: going to eat something... thanks you all for remember me that everything is ugly when seen from close enough :-D
2016-08-12T09:54:43Z |3b|: actually, i guess i might use that feature if i didn't use an implementation with type propagation :)
2016-08-12T09:55:05Z beach: dim: They are not comments.  They are meant for the USER and not for the maintainer.
2016-08-12T09:55:14Z beach: dim: So they are noise to the maintainer.
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2016-08-12T09:56:54Z Grue``: what if I'm both the user and maintainer
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2016-08-12T09:58:10Z dim: beach: I will have to think hard about that one, I like in CL the lack of distinction in between the user and the maintainer in the tooling (M-. makes no such distinction and I've been fixing local copies of libs that way before)
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2016-08-12T10:42:32Z jackdaniel: (1+ *)
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2016-08-12T10:53:17Z knobo: How do I convert iolib.os/pathname to lisp pathname?
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2016-08-12T10:54:52Z drmeister: knobo: Without knowing anything about iolib.os - you can always convert to a string and then back to a pathname.
2016-08-12T10:55:33Z knobo: I'll try that.
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2016-08-12T10:57:58Z knobo: works fine.
2016-08-12T10:59:36Z knobo: looks like iolib.os:list-directory  is the only way to read directories theese days.
2016-08-12T11:00:18Z knobo: with all the different encoding systems that exists.
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2016-08-12T11:11:17Z fe[nl]ix: too bad that I can't subclass cl:pathname
2016-08-12T11:11:49Z fe[nl]ix: so I could have iolib.os:pathname implement both interfaces
2016-08-12T11:12:48Z fe[nl]ix: knobo: can you open a bug requesting to add two functions for converting between the two formats ?
2016-08-12T11:13:01Z fe[nl]ix: otherwise I'll forget
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2016-08-12T12:31:55Z fe[nl]ix: knobo: thanks
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2016-08-12T12:57:12Z jackdaniel: McCLIM has started a fundraiser: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/posts/Crowdfunding-McCLIM-maintenance-and-development.html
2016-08-12T12:57:20Z jack_rip_vim: anyone know the screen package?
2016-08-12T12:57:51Z jack_rip_vim: is that for gui?
2016-08-12T12:57:59Z jackdaniel: yes
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2016-08-12T12:59:31Z jack_rip_vim: i dont know why that package didnt work. by the way, i use linux system, i dont know if that is the problem.
2016-08-12T13:00:01Z jack_rip_vim: just because i didnt use unix?
2016-08-12T13:00:17Z jackdaniel: if you mean screen as a GNU program, maybe you could try tmux? many people prefere it over screen
2016-08-12T13:01:05Z jack_rip_vim: screen package on common lisp
2016-08-12T13:01:28Z jackdaniel: ah, sorry, my bad (never used it)
2016-08-12T13:01:41Z jack_rip_vim: i dont know why that didnt work
2016-08-12T13:02:42Z jack_rip_vim: hmm
2016-08-12T13:04:22Z pierpa: is McClim a completely separate effort from Franz free Clim?
2016-08-12T13:04:29Z jdz: yes.
2016-08-12T13:04:35Z pierpa: that's a pity
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2016-08-12T13:06:32Z jack_rip_vim: i think screen package cant work on my computer
2016-08-12T13:07:59Z jack_rip_vim: or i just havent figure out how it work
2016-08-12T13:08:29Z beach: pierpa: We started working on McCLIM in 2000 or so and Mikemac started even before that.  It is not until recently that Franz released their CLIM.
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2016-08-12T13:09:09Z jack_rip_vim: hello beach
2016-08-12T13:09:21Z beach: pierpa: Also, Franz CLIM is very much tied to Allegro.
2016-08-12T13:10:14Z pierpa: yes
2016-08-12T13:10:25Z beach: Hello jack_rip_vim.
2016-08-12T13:10:51Z pierpa: but someone, I don't remember who recently has started working on Franz Clim. He could work on McClim instead...
2016-08-12T13:11:00Z jack_rip_vim: :)
2016-08-12T13:11:19Z jack_rip_vim: clim?
2016-08-12T13:11:29Z jackdaniel: pierpa: that would be cool :)
2016-08-12T13:11:33Z beach: Common Lisp Interface Manager.
2016-08-12T13:11:42Z jack_rip_vim: ok
2016-08-12T13:11:53Z pierpa: Craig Lanning. Does he hang around here?
2016-08-12T13:12:09Z beach: jack_rip_vim: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html
2016-08-12T13:12:14Z jackdaniel: pierpa: someone worked on both codebases and concluded, that merging some modules would be non-trivial and probably not worth it
2016-08-12T13:12:27Z jackdaniel: because the implementations are totally different
2016-08-12T13:12:36Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-08-12T13:12:37Z jack_rip_vim: i am not
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2016-08-12T13:13:08Z jack_rip_vim: @_@
2016-08-12T13:13:40Z jack_rip_vim: i will look at it
2016-08-12T13:16:16Z jack_rip_vim: it looks nice
2016-08-12T13:16:31Z jack_rip_vim: i will try clim
2016-08-12T13:17:01Z jackdaniel: jack_rip_vim: if you have any questions hit #clim :)
2016-08-12T13:17:08Z jack_rip_vim: ok
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2016-08-12T14:40:19Z MrMc: Do I need extra steps when working with quicklisp and sbcl on windows
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2016-08-12T14:41:07Z jackdaniel: MrMc: quicklisp works fine on windows with sbcl, some libraries howerver may have problems
2016-08-12T14:41:28Z jackdaniel: for instatnce if you want cl+ssl you may want to provide libssl.dll for your system
2016-08-12T14:41:33Z MrMc: I am working in the REPL typing (quicklisp:quickload :hunchentoot) and this fails
2016-08-12T14:41:44Z jackdaniel: yes, hunchentoot depends by default on cl+ssl
2016-08-12T14:42:10Z jackdaniel: MrMc: try (push :hunchentoot-no-ssl *features*)
2016-08-12T14:42:18Z jackdaniel: and after that load hunchentoot with quicklisp
2016-08-12T14:42:38Z jackdaniel: keep in mind it won't have ssl support
2016-08-12T14:43:06Z MrMc: I have installed cl+ssl
2016-08-12T14:43:21Z jackdaniel: cl+ssl depends on libssl
2016-08-12T14:43:23Z Xach: cl+ssl does nothing without the proper *.dll or *.so or *.dylib installed
2016-08-12T14:43:32Z Xach: and that is something quicklisp does not do
2016-08-12T14:44:21Z MrMc: I have installed win32 libssl
2016-08-12T14:44:50Z MrMc: Everything works fine with slime
2016-08-12T14:47:31Z MrMc: The exact error I am getting is: ebugger invoked on a SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-PACKAGE-ERROR in thread
2016-08-12T14:47:32Z MrMc: #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {100297C913}>:
2016-08-12T14:47:32Z MrMc:   Package QUICKLISP does not exist.
2016-08-12T14:48:10Z jackdaniel: did you load quicklisp/setup.lisp at start?
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2016-08-12T14:50:04Z MrMc: it is in sbclrc
2016-08-12T14:50:58Z jackdaniel: does your sbcl find sbclrc? I don't know how windows resolves pathnames? is the path in sbclrc correct?
2016-08-12T14:51:52Z jackdaniel: for instance emacs (at least cygwin's one)  gives you somewhat different fs layout (relative to cygwin) than cmd console (for instance)
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2016-08-12T15:02:18Z MrMc: jackdaniel: I have tried to start sbcl pointing to sbclrc with --sysinit
2016-08-12T15:02:31Z MrMc: that did not work either
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2016-08-12T15:23:37Z jackdaniel: that's why I have "Patience, average response time = 11h" on #ecl as first part of the topic :p
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2016-08-12T16:09:35Z phoe: I want to discuss BT's WITH-LOCK-HELD.
2016-08-12T16:10:21Z phoe: Its current lambda list is (with-lock-held (place) &body body)
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2016-08-12T16:10:43Z phoe: Why the additional parens around PLACE?
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2016-08-12T16:11:14Z phoe: Only one place goes there. There's no list possible there.
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2016-08-12T16:13:12Z jackdaniel: didn't you think that we like parens? ;)
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2016-08-12T16:15:25Z DeadTrickster: I think sb-thread:with-mutex's lambda list is (mutex &key) <- no unnecessary parens
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2016-08-12T16:16:23Z jackdaniel: (mutex &key wait-p timeout)
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2016-08-12T16:19:52Z phoe: Ayup.
2016-08-12T16:20:24Z phoe: I'm considering making a backwards-compatible change to BT that will strip these parens away.
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2016-08-12T16:21:24Z jackdaniel: phoe: what for?
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2016-08-12T16:22:10Z jackdaniel: ecl has (mp:with-lock (lock-form &rest options) &body body) too
2016-08-12T16:25:48Z phoe: jackdaniel: aesthetics
2016-08-12T16:25:59Z phoe: (with-lock ((lock instance)) ...) looks confusing
2016-08-12T16:26:07Z phoe: with-lock-held*
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2016-08-12T16:26:28Z phoe: if there's a list instead of a single argument, someone might think that other things go in there, too
2016-08-12T16:26:30Z dim: Xach: I've heard it's not hard to compile SBCL statically against libssl, is that something buildapp could include?
2016-08-12T16:26:35Z phoe: but actually it's just a single PLACE in there
2016-08-12T16:27:03Z XachX_: dim: possibly!
2016-08-12T16:27:20Z jackdaniel: bordaux-threads tires to be similar to apis provided by implementations, and this particular construct fits well in this philosophy. Also it will confuse people
2016-08-12T16:28:11Z jdz: (with-lock-held (lock instance) ...) might seem like in the body of the macro the lock variable is bound to a lock that is the value of instance variable.
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2016-08-12T16:29:00Z Grue``: actually it looks more like it introduces two variables, lock and instance, to be used within &body
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2016-08-12T16:30:06Z Grue``: come to think of it, it's not possible to change this backwards compatibly
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2016-08-12T16:30:26Z Grue``: because if lock is a function then (with-lock-held (lock) ...) is ambiguous
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2016-08-12T16:34:26Z phoe: sigh
2016-08-12T16:34:27Z phoe: oh well.
2016-08-12T16:34:31Z phoe: I have another problem - http://paste.lisp.org/display/322928
2016-08-12T16:34:32Z |3b| frequently puts single with-foo foos in parens in case there might be extra arguments later
2016-08-12T16:35:08Z phoe: OH wai.
2016-08-12T16:35:09Z phoe: t.
2016-08-12T16:35:09Z fourier: good to see McClim fundraising, but what about quicklisp ? It was promised in April. it could use some care for sure
2016-08-12T16:35:20Z phoe: I don't have that problem. I forgot to compile ACCEPTOR class.
2016-08-12T16:35:30Z XachX_: fourier: working on it
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2016-08-12T16:36:02Z beach: Someone just put in $505 for funding McCLIM.  Totally amazing!
2016-08-12T16:36:16Z phoe: We saw it with mmos.
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2016-08-12T16:36:18Z beach: We secured one month of maintenance in a matter of hours.
2016-08-12T16:36:22Z phoe: It's absolutely rad.
2016-08-12T16:36:26Z Grue``: wow, you could almost buy a lispworks with that
2016-08-12T16:36:26Z dim: XachX_: of course I know nothing about how to make static ssl build happen... and I would like to extend the feature to other libs too
2016-08-12T16:37:07Z phoe: Grue``: xD
2016-08-12T16:38:16Z fourier: XachX_: thanks.
2016-08-12T16:39:22Z Quadrescence: beach, always had a secret love for McCLIM ;)
2016-08-12T16:39:42Z Quadrescence: or CLIM in general, despite its out-of-this-worldness
2016-08-12T16:40:42Z fourier: have anyone tried LW's CLIM ? If it is so good why do they push for CAPI instead?
2016-08-12T16:41:23Z Quadrescence: I built a database editor some time ago in LW CLIM. CAPI is pushed/used because it has been made/tuned for all major OS's GUI toolkits
2016-08-12T16:41:49Z Quadrescence: and is augmented with LW's assorted extensions for things people generally want with GUI toolkits
2016-08-12T16:42:09Z Quadrescence: you don't have to learn a new paradigm of GUI programming more or less with CAPI
2016-08-12T16:42:35Z fe[nl]ix: dim: where did you hear that ?
2016-08-12T16:42:37Z fourier: Quadrescence: ahha this makes sense
2016-08-12T16:42:45Z jdz: Except nowadays nobody cares and all apps are now embedded WebKit based.
2016-08-12T16:43:06Z fe[nl]ix: "all" ?
2016-08-12T16:43:23Z pipping: I've just wanted to pad a string with periods. I ended up with this, which works perfectly well: (format t "~10,1,0,'.a~a~%" "foo" "bar"). The only thing that baffles me is that I had to use '. to refer to a period, or more generally 'a to refer to the character 'a in this directive. I never would've found that out myself, had it not been for the (format nil
2016-08-12T16:43:23Z pipping: "~12,'0d" 1000000) example in "practical common lisp". Are there other places where characters are referred to by 'a?
2016-08-12T16:43:28Z Quadrescence: fe[nl]ix, literally every app you use is webkit based, even top!
2016-08-12T16:44:44Z Bike: pipping: only in arguments to format strings
2016-08-12T16:44:53Z phoe: Quadrescence: even irssi!?!
2016-08-12T16:44:55Z Bike: to format string... operators, whatever they're called
2016-08-12T16:45:03Z phoe: oh snap, no doubt it eats up so much RAM
2016-08-12T16:45:16Z Quadrescence: phoe, sorry for breaking the bad news
2016-08-12T16:46:03Z pipping: Bike: okay, so it's a(nother) format idiosyncrasy.
2016-08-12T16:46:18Z jdz: Yes, I'm also annoyed I cannot turn off mouse support in htop... Why is there mouse support in htop in the first place?
2016-08-12T16:46:59Z Bike: pipping: usually you refer to a character with #\, but there's no reason format needs to do that
2016-08-12T16:48:22Z pipping: Bike: Right. But instead of ~10,1,0,'.a, the syntax could just as well be ~10,1,0,.a without the quote, no?
2016-08-12T16:48:55Z jdz: pipping: what if you want a comma?
2016-08-12T16:49:39Z pipping: that'd be fine, too, no? because the maximum number of arguments there is four. And to specify the character, you need to pass the three argument before that
2016-08-12T16:49:40Z fourier: Quadrescence: but generally what can one do with CLIM what is not possible in CAPI/other toolkit? What is the use of it?
2016-08-12T16:49:59Z phoe: Quadrescence: ;_;
2016-08-12T16:50:11Z pipping: But I guess you're right, just because perl would be able to parse it somehow, it's not automatically a good idea
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2016-08-12T16:54:27Z Bike: also, the character isn't always the last argument. d takes number, character, character, number.
2016-08-12T16:54:49Z dim: fe[nl]ix: was it you who has a document somewhere doing that (static build of SBCL with ssl included)?
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2016-08-12T17:05:33Z pipping: Bike: Okay. I'm convinced now.
2016-08-12T17:05:43Z fe[nl]ix: dim: there's a patch that we tried to publish but it breaks SBCL on Windows
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2016-08-12T17:08:03Z mordocai: https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/mcclim
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2016-08-12T17:08:09Z mordocai: ^^ check that out people
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2016-08-12T17:13:04Z fe[nl]ix: Quadrescence: you want mcclim to work that much ?
2016-08-12T17:15:51Z mordocai: fe[nl]ix: Is that who that is? Heh, I was just talking it.
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2016-08-12T17:16:36Z mordocai: talking about it*
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2016-08-12T17:22:18Z mordocai: jackdaniel: Didn't realize you were being paid for your mcclim work, that's pretty cool :)
2016-08-12T17:24:14Z jackdaniel: mordocai: yeah, I agree. I can cover my basic basic expenses thanks to work on McCLIM and SICL, and these are very cool projects to hack on
2016-08-12T17:24:17Z jackdaniel: and FOSS :)
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2016-08-12T17:30:44Z eschatologist: having a free, working, cross-platform, cross-Lisp implementation of CLIM is very useful
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2016-08-12T17:32:01Z JuanDaugherty: how far along is that?
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2016-08-12T17:33:26Z jasom: jackdaniel: how are your mcclim plans affected by Franz's release?
2016-08-12T17:33:38Z JuanDaugherty: (disregarding usability or other extraneous issues)
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2016-08-12T17:34:38Z eschatologist: well, I've at least run some CLIM demos against McCLIM on both sbcl and ccl on Linux and macOS
2016-08-12T17:34:42Z jackdaniel: JuanDaugherty: for now we are tied to CLX, but we've replaced a lot of bricks with the portability layers (like bordeaux-threads for multiprocessing, or trivial-gray-streams)
2016-08-12T17:34:57Z jackdaniel: and we've fixed some fundamental issues with mirroring
2016-08-12T17:35:16Z eschatologist: for me having reasonable backend support would be great, so a Mac-native backend could be built
2016-08-12T17:35:25Z eschatologist: and I'm sure the Linux folks would like a GTK+ native backend
2016-08-12T17:35:45Z JuanDaugherty: didn't clx always just work or did you mean the clx support for clim?
2016-08-12T17:35:46Z jackdaniel: jasom: we've analyzed how different the implementations are and got into the conclusion, that they differ too much, so nothing meaningful may be reused or shared
2016-08-12T17:36:28Z jackdaniel: basically CLIM has a thing called backends, and currently the main/reference backend is CLX one
2016-08-12T17:36:31Z JuanDaugherty: and yeah if it works in sbcl on linux most people would be happy I should think
2016-08-12T17:36:46Z JuanDaugherty: i c
2016-08-12T17:37:11Z jackdaniel: we had gtk backend, but it was broken beyond repair, we have also beagle backend (OSX native), but it doesn't work – it's broken but there is hope to repair it
2016-08-12T17:37:26Z dim: on Mac CCL already provides Cocoa support, it might be easiest to begin with that as a tentative new backend?
2016-08-12T17:37:48Z jackdaniel: dim: beagle backend depends on ccl's cocoa fwiw
2016-08-12T17:37:58Z dim: ahah, awesome
2016-08-12T17:38:13Z jackdaniel: from the long term goals we would like to implement a framebuffer backend, so the glue code for particular system will be kind of trivial (but no native look) – we think about something based on material design principles
2016-08-12T17:38:20Z jackdaniel: but it's not set in stone whatsoever
2016-08-12T17:38:57Z jasom: jackdaniel: are portable libraries like Qt or libui options for backends? (I don't know exactly what a backend needs to implement)
2016-08-12T17:39:00Z jackdaniel: and it would be awesome to write a sensible "backend writing guide", so someone could implement his own backend for McCLIM if he needs a native look
2016-08-12T17:39:03Z eschatologist: jackdaniel: using a non-native look and feel is a nonstarter for many users, I don't use a Mac to use "material design"
2016-08-12T17:39:18Z eschatologist: having backends that use actual native controls is important
2016-08-12T17:39:22Z dim: do you know of Jupyter, btw? there's a CL backend for it, you can see it in action (but that's a static snapshot) at https://github.com/fredokun/cl-jupyter/blob/master/about-cl-jupyter.ipynb --- I'm wondering if a Jupyter+Slime application would be a killer app for McCLIM
2016-08-12T17:39:26Z jackdaniel: jasom: there was gtkairo backend as already stated
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2016-08-12T17:40:02Z jackdaniel: eschatologist: I'm aware of that, I mean – we need a solid reference backend, which won't be tied to anything particular like clx
2016-08-12T17:40:22Z jackdaniel: then we may build in parallel other backends – this goal doesn't make backends obsolete
2016-08-12T17:40:35Z eschatologist: jackdaniel: ah, OK - as long as it's a reference backend, and not "we don't need backends, all we need is a canvas to do all our own drawing"
2016-08-12T17:40:51Z jackdaniel: dim: I've heard about it, sounds cool
2016-08-12T17:41:10Z jackdaniel: eschatologist: right, I share that point of view
2016-08-12T17:41:21Z eschatologist: jackdaniel: yay :)
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2016-08-12T17:41:42Z dim: a colleague of mine uses the python version of it, and I'm quite jealous each time I see him having that very fine tool; and OTOH the CL version of the tool doesn't support interactive debugging
2016-08-12T17:41:57Z dim: hence the feeling that there's a place for a McCLIM app there in the middle ;-)
2016-08-12T17:42:00Z jasom: Of course there is no such thing as a native linux backend sadly; just native Qt/Gtk/Kde/Gnome backends
2016-08-12T17:42:22Z jackdaniel: yeah
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2016-08-12T17:42:39Z jackdaniel: btw, material design (not as Android implementation, but as a specification provided by google) is really cool
2016-08-12T17:42:41Z jasom: Tk's default look on linux was Motif up until 2010, so linux devs associated "Tk" with "ugly"
2016-08-12T17:42:42Z jackdaniel: worth reading
2016-08-12T17:42:48Z fourier: dim: cool. looks like implementing something like Mathematica's notebooks in python
2016-08-12T17:42:56Z jackdaniel: dim: heh
2016-08-12T17:43:29Z jackdaniel: I'll have to eventually check the jupyter out (you are the third person mentioning it to me, not necessarily in McCLIM context)
2016-08-12T17:43:46Z isoraqathedh: Python notebooks are already a thing, right?
2016-08-12T17:44:02Z dim: Jupyter is an implementation of python notebooks, yes
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2016-08-12T17:52:49Z jasom: https://phab.jasom.org/diffusion/GL/ is an early alpha of my geany plugin for lisp.  It requires sbcl, emacs, and the headers for building a geany plugin.
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2016-08-12T17:54:47Z jackdaniel: jasom: what is your twitter handle?
2016-08-12T17:54:54Z jasom: jackdaniel: @aidenn0 I think?
2016-08-12T17:54:59Z jasom doesn't use twitter much
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2016-08-12T17:55:24Z jasom: jackdaniel: oh, btw I started this before seeing your lightning talk (just saw that a week ago) and saw you mentioned something like this as a need.
2016-08-12T17:55:53Z jackdaniel: heh :)
2016-08-12T17:55:55Z jasom: yup, @Aidenn0
2016-08-12T17:56:22Z jasom: wow, I've sent 115 tweets; thats' more than I would have thought.
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2016-08-12T18:14:34Z Xach: so confusing
2016-08-12T18:14:52Z Xach: like a project named X defining a system named Y that creates a package named Z
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2016-08-12T18:25:11Z phoe: Pft, I dislike the fact you can't DEFUN TYPE despite there being no #'CL:TYPE
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2016-08-12T18:25:31Z phoe: and even worse, you can't DEFUN TYPE-OF because there *is* a #'CL:TYPE-OF
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2016-08-12T18:26:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: (shadow type) (defun type)
2016-08-12T18:29:42Z jasom: phoe: there are very good reasons for this
2016-08-12T18:29:58Z phoe: jasom: I know, and what fiddlerwoaroof suggests might break more stuff that I want it to break
2016-08-12T18:30:06Z jasom: phoe: (flet ((type ...)) (some-macro-that-calls-a-function-named-type ...))
2016-08-12T18:30:21Z phoe: jasom: I know
2016-08-12T18:30:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: you just have to remember to refer to cl:type as cl:type
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2016-08-12T18:30:43Z Grue``: not being able to use t as a variable name is worse
2016-08-12T18:30:45Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't have a large enough internal RAM for it
2016-08-12T18:32:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: would that break anything?  Wouldn't the function definition be lexically scoped to the inside of the flet?
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2016-08-12T18:33:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess it might break macros
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2016-08-12T18:34:24Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: exactly
2016-08-12T18:34:53Z jasom: CL packages and Scheme's hygienic macros are both solutions to the same problem
2016-08-12T18:35:39Z jasom: the problem is much bigger in scheme due to the single namespace for functions and variable
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2016-08-12T18:44:07Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: there was a flamewar on c.l.l that 50 or 60 posts in had a good discussion between a schemer and a lisper on the differences between scheme and lisp macros.  Someday I'll pull out all the crap and leave just the good parts.
2016-08-12T18:45:02Z jasom: It was started when Ron Garret (then Erran Gat) asked why some people think that scheme is not a lisp.  The inevitability of a flamewar with that topic is obvious :)
2016-08-12T18:45:49Z phoe: jasom: wait, what makes you think scheme is a lisp?
2016-08-12T18:45:53Z phoe ducks
2016-08-12T18:46:02Z jasom: KMP says it isn't :)
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2016-08-12T18:49:21Z dim: you can use t as a variable name just fine if you don't :use :cl in your package...
2016-08-12T18:49:40Z jasom: here's the thread: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/Bj8Hx6mZEYI
2016-08-12T18:49:49Z dim: for some fun about t as a variable name: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/297
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2016-08-12T18:49:50Z jasom: anyone know if it's possible to download a thread from google groups?
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2016-08-12T18:51:12Z dim: can you extract the Message-ID?
2016-08-12T18:51:31Z dim: yeah, Message-ID: <gat-1203021200230001@eglaptop.jpl.nasa.gov>
2016-08-12T18:52:11Z dim: mmm, seems I don't have it locally in my NNTP setup
2016-08-12T18:52:22Z Xach: so old
2016-08-12T18:52:44Z Xach: jasom: the comp.lang.lisp archive mailbox might be an easier start
2016-08-12T18:52:49Z dim: http://xach.com/naggum/articles/3225146489372030@naggum.net.txt
2016-08-12T18:52:50Z Xach: I have a copy if you need it.
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2016-08-12T18:58:58Z pierpa: what is "mirroring", in this context?
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2016-08-12T19:07:37Z jackdaniel: pierpa: mirror is a term to call "native" backend windows (or objects, or widgets)
2016-08-12T19:07:54Z jackdaniel: native for this backend, not for Common Lisp
2016-08-12T19:08:05Z jackdaniel: so it's something like a foreign-object in CFFI
2016-08-12T19:08:41Z pierpa: ok. thank you.
2016-08-12T19:11:53Z jasom: rereading this thread reminds me of how much I enjoy reading pretty much anything written by KMP
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2016-08-12T19:13:08Z phoe: How should I write a basic BT thread that waits for a boolean to turn true? I'd like to avoid using #'SLEEP manually.
2016-08-12T19:13:35Z jasom: phoe: don't turn the boolean true, instead signal all waiters
2016-08-12T19:13:41Z jasom: I think BT has condition variables?
2016-08-12T19:13:44Z phoe: jasom: I don't think I can.
2016-08-12T19:14:03Z phoe: The boolean I want comes from a socket having input.
2016-08-12T19:14:20Z phoe: Oh wait.
2016-08-12T19:14:27Z jasom: phoe: recv
2016-08-12T19:14:27Z phoe: I can just use WAIT-FOR-INPUT.
2016-08-12T19:14:36Z jasom: right
2016-08-12T19:14:49Z phoe: I'll grab that.
2016-08-12T19:15:01Z jasom: basic-binary-ipc also has a portable polling interface for sockets
2016-08-12T19:15:20Z phoe: It'll return me a socket. I'll need to find a connection object that matches this socket, but that's doable.
2016-08-12T19:15:26Z jasom: cl-async comes with its own event loop (don't know if you can use it at a lower level)
2016-08-12T19:17:54Z jasom: phoe: in any event, I can highly recommend basic-binary-ipc if you ever need to wait on any one of N sockets rather than just one socket.  I've heard good things about cl-async but haven't used it personally as I'm a control freak with a serious case of NIH who writes his own event loops.
2016-08-12T19:19:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
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2016-08-12T19:19:33Z jasom: actually it's mainly just that I write buggy software and if I have good introspection into the event loop I can fix my bugs faster :)
2016-08-12T19:19:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have similar feelings about cl-async solutions. Plus, doesn't that mean realying on libuv?
2016-08-12T19:19:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/real/rel/
2016-08-12T19:20:35Z jasom: pillton is an insane master for writing basic-binary-ipc using just cffi; it's the right way IMO, but I wasn't going to shave that many yaks.
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2016-08-12T19:40:02Z prole: Hie, I'm using the conkeror web browser right know. I wanted to know if there is other web browser project around emacs or common lisp in active dev
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2016-08-12T19:40:38Z prole: Do some peopl here use eww in their every day workflow?
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2016-08-12T19:41:02Z jasom: there is lispkit; I don't use it though
2016-08-12T19:41:14Z antoszka: prole: AFAIK there are no *usable* active projects going on.
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2016-08-12T19:41:25Z prole: :(
2016-08-12T19:41:38Z PuercoPop: there are two lispkits actually! (same goal, same name)
2016-08-12T19:42:05Z antoszka: Aren't both a little abandoned/underdeveloped?
2016-08-12T19:42:16Z PuercoPop: yes
2016-08-12T19:42:19Z antoszka: Either way, I'd just recommend qutebrowser.
2016-08-12T19:42:31Z antoszka: You can't have everything :)
2016-08-12T19:43:27Z prole: I'll stay with conkeror. Vim based browse is a nightmare for me. If there is not 5 pages of 5-keys-in-a-row command, i'm not interested :)
2016-08-12T19:43:35Z antoszka: Huh, okay.
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2016-08-12T19:59:39Z aeth: the problem with web browsers is... the standards were raised around 2008 or so
2016-08-12T19:59:50Z aeth: It's probably quite hard to write a new one compared to 10 years ago
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2016-08-12T20:22:03Z jasom: aeth: without reusing a layout engine at least, and probably a javascript engine as well.
2016-08-12T20:22:29Z jasom: aeth: there is a fairly good implementation of javascript in lisp, but it is blown away by the newer crazy optimized JITs
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2016-08-12T20:22:43Z jasom: aeth: and it completely lacks a DOM of course
2016-08-12T20:23:26Z phoe: jasom: what is it?
2016-08-12T20:24:34Z jasom: http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/cl-javascript/
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2016-08-12T20:24:45Z jasom: It targets what is now an old version of ECMA script though
2016-08-12T20:25:36Z jasom: It is usable for unit-testing parenscript functions if you avoid newer features
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2016-08-12T20:34:08Z aeth: jasom: right, the newer JS engines, HTML 5, etc., all started around 2008
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2016-08-12T20:34:41Z aeth: although they're probably soon reaching a point where a new layout engine might make sense because there's not as much of a moving target anymore
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2016-08-12T20:36:13Z aeth: It would still be a massive effort with about 0% chance of profiting or being the fastest/best
2016-08-12T20:36:19Z phoe: The ECMAScript standard sounds like a pretty sane document.
2016-08-12T20:36:24Z phoe: http://www.ecma-international.org/ecma-262/6.0/ECMA-262.pdf
2016-08-12T20:36:38Z phoe: About 50% of CLtL2, volume-wise.
2016-08-12T20:37:26Z aeth: Implementing a Lua in CL would probably make more sense. A small language designed for embedding and it has its niche fans, but not as much resources and competition as JS.
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2016-08-12T20:38:34Z aeth: A new web browser and JS engine, though, would have about 0 traction for almost a decade, probably. Who wants a slower, half-complete web browser that doesn't have a good UI?
2016-08-12T20:39:09Z aeth: Also, no extensions (especially an adblocker)
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2016-08-12T20:42:43Z jasom: aeth: I assume you're familiar with servo?
2016-08-12T20:42:58Z jasom: aeth: luaJIT is crazy fast
2016-08-12T20:42:58Z aeth: a bit
2016-08-12T20:43:34Z jasom: in any event, this is why something like lispkit makes more sense than a from-the-ground-up layout engine in lisp
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2016-08-12T21:17:21Z dim: phoe: you can use an lparallel.queue object to pass events to worker threads too
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2016-08-12T21:20:36Z jasom: dim: the question still comes as to waekup a thread on that event without polling (though phoe figured it out in this case)
2016-08-12T21:21:00Z dim: a current web browser needs also good media support, images and video formats and all (webm might be enough to start with?)
2016-08-12T21:21:22Z dim: jasom: there's the receive-result api in lparallel for that
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2016-08-12T21:48:39Z jasom: dim: I think you are misunderstanding the original question
2016-08-12T21:49:13Z jasom: dim: the original question was how to monitor a change in a value without spin-waiting.
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2016-08-12T21:51:55Z jasom: and the answer of course is "don't do that, but change it so that when the value is changed, the actor that changes it signals those interested in it"
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2016-08-12T21:57:45Z dim: ah yeah, ok, so my answer covers one of the ways to signal that change, but only if interested parties are going to inquire about it (pop from the queue)
2016-08-12T21:58:01Z dim: so I guess I entirely missed the point on that one
2016-08-12T21:58:02Z dim: sorry
2016-08-12T21:58:44Z jasom: dim: no worries, we did eventually move on to ways of distributing that event (not currently needed by phoe), and lparallel is one that wasn't mentioned.
2016-08-12T21:59:30Z dim: I really like lparallel, I've been using it a lot in similar ways I've been using Erlang a long time ago (message passing basically)
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2016-08-12T21:59:50Z jasom: I like anything that encourages message passing over other synchronization primitives
2016-08-12T22:01:26Z jasom: The very first system I worked on was kind of a cooperative-multitasking system inspired by smalltalk.  Each thread ran a state machine that serviced a queue, and method calls involved sending messages to the queues.
2016-08-12T22:01:41Z jasom: s/worked on/worked on professionally/
2016-08-12T22:02:21Z jasom: the queuees were bounded, so filling a queue would ensure you yielded.
2016-08-12T22:03:06Z jasom: in order to get results back, you would pass a result object as the last parameter and pend on that.
2016-08-12T22:03:29Z dim: I do that in pgloader with lparallel to ensure only one thread (named the monitor) is writing out the logs (so without mixing up multi-lines output and things)
2016-08-12T22:03:59Z dim: log-message sends the message to a queue, any parallel worker can do that, a only the monitor reads from the queue
2016-08-12T22:04:03Z jasom: so threads typically were not-runnable and blocked on one of: receive from empty queue, send to full queue, or wait on result object.
2016-08-12T22:04:08Z dim: I guess it really is the classic use case
2016-08-12T22:04:14Z jasom: yeah
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2016-08-12T22:19:23Z knobo: Is GPL a good license for lisp libraries?
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2016-08-12T22:20:21Z knobo: Should be LLGPL.
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2016-08-12T22:21:22Z knobo: hmmm.  I forked a library, and made some improvments.
2016-08-12T22:21:43Z knobo: But can I build lisp images with it, if it is GPL?
2016-08-12T22:22:20Z dxtr: Are there any good (and/or well-used) programs written in lisp? It's so I can look at source code :)
2016-08-12T22:23:08Z knobo: dxtr: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3029375/looking-for-good-lisp-code-to-read
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2016-08-12T22:30:12Z jasom: knobo: the most commonly used lisp library is MIT/X11, which are compatible with GPL libraries
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2016-08-12T22:30:58Z jasom: knobo: Nobody has ever bothered to take anyone to court over lisp libraries that are under GPL, and the GPL was designed with C in mind, so there is some ambiguity in the GPL with regard to image based systems.
2016-08-12T22:31:25Z jasom: s/library/licens in my first thing "most commonly used lisp LICENSE is MIT/X11"
2016-08-12T22:31:38Z knobo: jasom: can I save-lisp-and-die with a GPL lisp library?
2016-08-12T22:31:45Z jasom: knobo: yes
2016-08-12T22:32:01Z jasom: knobo: the resulting binary will be subject to the restrictions of the GPL code in it
2016-08-12T22:32:11Z jasom: i.e. no sending it around without source
2016-08-12T22:32:48Z jasom: The “System Libraries” of an executable work include anything, other than the work as a whole, that (a) is included in the normal form of packaging a Major Component, but which is not part of that Major Component, and (b) serves only to enable use of the work with that Major Component, or to implement a Standard Interface for which an implementation is available to the public in source code form. A “Major
2016-08-12T22:32:50Z knobo: Source is on github/bitbucket anyway...
2016-08-12T22:32:50Z jasom: Component”, in this context, means a major essential component (kernel, window system, and so on) of the specific operating system (if any) on which the executable work runs, or a compiler used to produce the work, or an object code interpreter used to run it.
2016-08-12T22:33:14Z jasom: so anything that is part of the lisp core runtime is exempted under that
2016-08-12T22:33:45Z jasom: just like you can link GPL stuff with the MSVC runtime
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2016-08-12T22:35:05Z knobo: ok. good night....
2016-08-12T22:35:41Z jasom: disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, just my understanding of the licenses involved
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2016-08-12T23:14:55Z Polyphony: I'm trying to write a macro that takes a symbol FOO and returns another symbol surrounded in something.  For instance: (foo 'bar) => *BAR*
2016-08-12T23:15:23Z Polyphony: it seems so simple but I guess I'm missing something :(
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2016-08-12T23:16:14Z Bike: no, that's a non-obvious thing to do.
2016-08-12T23:16:45Z Bike: you need to take the SYMBOL-NAME, produce the new name by string manipulation, and then FIND-SYMBOL or INTERN it.
2016-08-12T23:16:59Z Bike: i'm not sure why you would want this macro, though.
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2016-08-12T23:17:19Z dwchandler: ^ This is something I like about you people
2016-08-12T23:17:31Z dwchandler: :)
2016-08-12T23:17:37Z Polyphony: hehe
2016-08-12T23:17:42Z Bike: my dashing good looks and polished gears?
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2016-08-12T23:18:18Z dwchandler: Even questionable questions get an answer
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2016-08-12T23:22:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: (defmacro specialize (sym) (intern (concatenate 'string "*" (symbol-name sym) "*"))))
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2016-08-12T23:23:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, that should probably be a defun
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2016-08-12T23:29:23Z Polyphony: I actually got that far, I was having trouble finding info on how to use the newly "interned" symbol.  The whole idea is to pass it through DEFVAR.  See here: http://paste.lisp.org/+6X77
2016-08-12T23:29:58Z Bike: `(defvar ,(intern ...) nil)
2016-08-12T23:30:18Z Bike: why bother, though?
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2016-08-12T23:40:08Z Polyphony: I don't remember what the original idea was, just fiddling around with macros and was wondering if it was possible I guess.
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2016-08-12T23:42:03Z Bike: it is. it's just usually easier and clearer to have the user write out the symbol.
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2016-08-12T23:42:44Z Bike: there are subtle things. like as you have it now, if you did (in-package :foo) (make-tree bar:tree) it would expand to (defvar *foo::tree* ...) which might be unexpected.
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2016-08-12T23:46:29Z Polyphony: heh, yeah I guess it's pretty strange
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2016-08-12T23:48:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Bike: doesn't symbol-name just return the name without the package part?
2016-08-12T23:48:12Z Bike: yes
2016-08-12T23:49:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, you meant (defvar foo::*tree*)?
2016-08-12T23:49:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: That confused me
2016-08-12T23:49:16Z Bike: er. yes.