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2016-08-11T01:12:29Z holycow: .... uh
2016-08-11T01:13:13Z holycow: i just installed sbcl on this: https://nextthing.co/pages/pocketchip
2016-08-11T01:13:17Z holycow: yay arm sbcl!
2016-08-11T01:13:19Z holycow: jeesus
2016-08-11T01:13:35Z akkad: how much ram?
2016-08-11T01:13:47Z holycow: lets see
2016-08-11T01:14:04Z John[Lisbeth]: how about that quantum lisp tho?
2016-08-11T01:14:36Z holycow: looks like 500mb
2016-08-11T01:14:41Z holycow: let me check if its right
2016-08-11T01:15:05Z holycow: 512mb ram
2016-08-11T01:15:12Z holycow: comes with debian preinstalled
2016-08-11T01:15:21Z holycow: i thought, just for giggles, what if sbcl installed
2016-08-11T01:15:29Z holycow: and voila, in the debian repos was the arm port
2016-08-11T01:16:29Z VitoVan: How does it feel?
2016-08-11T01:16:57Z holycow: slow for any multitasking stuff, its a single core cpu
2016-08-11T01:17:04Z holycow: but it runs smallish apps just fine
2016-08-11T01:17:14Z holycow: no 3d acceleration, mali gpu is proprietary
2016-08-11T01:17:21Z holycow: so games have to be raster and stuff
2016-08-11T01:18:11Z holycow: .... aaaand now we have emacs, slime and quicklisp installed
2016-08-11T01:18:27Z holycow: i never ever thought i would see the day this would be possible on an arm cpu
2016-08-11T01:20:48Z akkad: holycow: how many cpus?
2016-08-11T01:20:56Z holycow: 1 cpu @ 1 core
2016-08-11T01:20:59Z VitoVan: holycow: You can use it to make a cup of coffee now~
2016-08-11T01:21:01Z akkad: "openssl speed aes" yield much?
2016-08-11T01:21:12Z holycow: VitoVan: slime is taking a long time to start :)
2016-08-11T01:21:29Z holycow: akkad: starting up slime now to see how long it takes
2016-08-11T01:21:30Z holycow: heh
2016-08-11T01:21:38Z holycow: slooooooow to start.  i'll try that after
2016-08-11T01:22:19Z holycow: oh its polling, not sure what that means
2016-08-11T01:22:22Z holycow: lets try the aes test
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2016-08-11T01:22:44Z axion: holycow: I ran sbcl on a raspberry pi (arm) about 5 years ago. It's been possible for a long while
2016-08-11T01:22:51Z axion: or sorry, CCL
2016-08-11T01:23:00Z holycow: really?
2016-08-11T01:23:07Z holycow: that is sweet.  i had no idea.
2016-08-11T01:23:11Z axion: CCL had an arm port a lot sooner
2016-08-11T01:23:52Z holycow: i'm an idiot obviously
2016-08-11T01:25:55Z holycow: each of the tests comes back with: cbc's in 3.00s
2016-08-11T01:26:31Z holycow: approx
2016-08-11T01:26:52Z holycow: 2.88, 2.92, etc
2016-08-11T01:27:22Z akkad: wait til it's done
2016-08-11T01:28:05Z holycow: ah, you are looking for the size in bytes.  which is interesting to you... aes-256 cbc?
2016-08-11T01:28:12Z akkad: aes-256 cbc     101743.62k   109617.39k   111283.29k   112121.17k   112577.19k
2016-08-11T01:28:31Z akkad: holycow it's a benchmark. that runs each key size for 3secs
2016-08-11T01:28:47Z holycow: got it sec let me irc on and copy/pasta
2016-08-11T01:28:56Z akkad: thnks
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2016-08-11T01:32:28Z holycow: aes-256 cbc 28368.59k  31318.81k  32569.60k  32852.87k
2016-08-11T01:32:43Z holycow: nothing great really
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2016-08-11T01:34:12Z holycow-chip: and irc works too
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2016-08-11T01:36:04Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm trying to understand this function: http://www.hastebin.com/rapedekewu.lisp
2016-08-11T01:36:13Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't know what let does or why it is in double parens
2016-08-11T01:36:56Z Bike: gentle didn't tell you about let?
2016-08-11T01:37:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I was wearing some virtual reality goggles maybe I missed something
2016-08-11T01:37:21Z John[Lisbeth]: I've used let in haskell but I forgot what it does
2016-08-11T01:37:55Z Bike: what does virtual reality have to do with anything
2016-08-11T01:38:04Z akkad: holycow: not bad. but arm being arm and mmu being so far away.
2016-08-11T01:38:06Z John[Lisbeth]: it was really hard to see
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2016-08-11T01:38:38Z Bike: ok, so don't do that.
2016-08-11T01:38:48Z holycow: akkad: *nod*
2016-08-11T01:38:53Z John[Lisbeth]: I stopped after it gave me a migraine
2016-08-11T01:39:40Z John[Lisbeth]: oops I figured it out nevermind
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2016-08-11T01:39:50Z Bike: you should read gentle while not wearing solid glasses, but LET lets you bind names. in haskell you'd write something like "let x = 4 in x+x", which means that in the expression "x+x" x is understood to be four. in lisp you'd write that as (let ((x 4)) (+ x x))
2016-08-11T01:41:00Z John[Lisbeth]: in haskell I used let like how you use defun in lisp
2016-08-11T01:41:03Z John[Lisbeth]: I remember now
2016-08-11T01:41:07Z John[Lisbeth]: but I understand let in lisp now
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2016-08-11T01:49:08Z holycow: ah, slime crashes, something about sbcl-no-threads.  probably makes sense
2016-08-11T01:50:01Z Bike: i think there's a setting for slime to work with no threads
2016-08-11T01:50:23Z holycow: googling, thx for tip
2016-08-11T01:50:40Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Communication-style.html#Communication-style there you go
2016-08-11T01:51:02Z Bike: though it also says it should notice there are no threads and fix it
2016-08-11T01:51:10Z holycow: huh
2016-08-11T01:51:14Z holycow: wow, bookmarked
2016-08-11T01:51:18Z holycow: lets try
2016-08-11T01:53:38Z akkad: rebuild with fancy
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2016-08-11T02:06:11Z holycow: duly noted akkad ... added to the todo
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2016-08-11T02:26:58Z kiwix: i have a fresh installation of emacs on mac os x. is quicklisp the way to go for installing slime now ?
2016-08-11T02:27:34Z kiwix: (i have cl and sbcl installed already)
2016-08-11T02:27:37Z XachX_: kiwix: i prefer it. But you can use melpa too.
2016-08-11T02:28:36Z kiwix: indeed ont the github repo they share a link to melpa for the installatin process
2016-08-11T02:29:04Z kiwix: but i am pretty new on lisp dev.. what is the difference or the real benefit of melpa ?
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2016-08-11T03:42:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-08-11T03:46:07Z loke: Hello beach!
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2016-08-11T06:14:55Z bizarrefish: Hi all
2016-08-11T06:15:04Z beach: Hello bizarrefish.
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2016-08-11T06:15:40Z bizarrefish: I've been reading about implementing interpreters with the free monad, and found myself wanting to serialize the result of a bind
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2016-08-11T06:16:29Z bizarrefish: (I was working in scala, reading mostly haskell stuff).
2016-08-11T06:16:50Z bizarrefish: Is this the point of lisp? Or specifically, homoiconicity as a core feature?
2016-08-11T06:17:45Z Bike: reading and writing back code easily is pretty nice, yeah, but homoiconicity doesn't technically imply serializability i guess
2016-08-11T06:17:46Z beach: Most people would say that homoiconicity is a core feature of Lisp, but there is not general agreement about what "Lisp" or "A Lisp" means.
2016-08-11T06:18:26Z beach: bizarrefish: We avoid problems like that by making this channel Common Lisp specific.
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2016-08-11T06:22:02Z bizarrefish: beach: I guess I am talking about common lisp, then :)
2016-08-11T06:22:11Z bizarrefish: It is those people that I am familiar with
2016-08-11T06:23:40Z bizarrefish: I guess another way of looking at it is that homoiconicity allows you to serialize a system state which doesn't actually have any serialization (by serializing code that generates it).
2016-08-11T06:24:12Z bizarrefish: Though this can all be achieved with a non-homoiconic eval a' la javascript
2016-08-11T06:24:45Z bizarrefish: Homoiconicity specifically may be more about macros
2016-08-11T06:26:03Z beach: I don't see how homoiconicity makes serialization of system state possible, and I don't see how homoiconicity is more about macros than about other code.
2016-08-11T06:26:42Z beach: It just specifies how programs are defined in terms of the data types available in the language.
2016-08-11T06:26:46Z Bike: well, if all you're doing with code is executing it, having just eval is fine. if you want to let the user define their own functions on code it's cruel to leave them with strings, is all
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2016-08-11T06:47:37Z beach: I am reading about the New Jersey Machine-Code Toolkit https://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/toolkit/base/refman.ps
2016-08-11T06:48:07Z beach: It would be nice to have something like that written in Common Lisp, and it would be *SO* much easier to write it in Common Lisp.
2016-08-11T06:50:05Z Bike: i know there's a couple of ad hoc ones, eg https://github.com/kingcons/cl-6502/blob/master/src/opcodes.lisp
2016-08-11T06:50:18Z Bike: well, not ad hoc, but less systematic and general.
2016-08-11T06:51:08Z beach: I see, yes.
2016-08-11T06:52:00Z beach: The New Jersey Machine-Code Toolkit seems to be more meta level than the code of that link.
2016-08-11T06:52:09Z Bike: i think llvm has some systematicy things in http://llvm.org/docs/TableGen/
2016-08-11T06:53:04Z Bike: http://llvm.org/docs/doxygen/html/classllvm_1_1TargetInstrInfo.html haha, that looks pretty goddamn complicated
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2016-08-11T06:54:12Z beach: Wow!
2016-08-11T06:54:52Z Bike: "convertToThreeAddress: This method must be implemented by targets that set the M_CONVERTIBLE_TO_3_ADDR flag." docstrings never change
2016-08-11T06:55:21Z beach: Nice one.
2016-08-11T06:55:24Z Bike: «Return true if it's profitable to predicate instructions with accumulated instruction latency of "NumCycles" of the specified basic block, where the probability of the instructions being executed is given by Probability, and Confidence is a measure of our confidence that it will be properly predicted.» geez.
2016-08-11T06:55:48Z Bike: i mean, i can see why a compiler would need that, obviously, and it's basically part of the architecture...
2016-08-11T06:57:21Z beach: If I understand things correctly, the New Jersey Machine-Code Toolkit does not address such issues; only issues of encoding and decoding instructions.
2016-08-11T06:58:54Z Bike: oh. well, i guess that's a good start.
2016-08-11T06:59:02Z Bike: https://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/gentileset-abstract.html looks like the author has kinda ran with it.
2016-08-11T06:59:43Z Bike: ah, they use C--.
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2016-08-11T07:03:11Z beach: If we are going to make progress, I think it is important to define reasonable-sized chunks that can be worked on independently.
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2016-08-11T07:04:10Z Bike: sure
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2016-08-11T07:07:26Z Bike: well, this doesn't look complicated to do, even in the much uglier html version. wish they had a manual for the html too, but i guess it was 1995.
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2016-08-11T07:07:45Z beach: "this"?
2016-08-11T07:07:59Z Bike: SLED
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2016-08-11T07:15:16Z beach: Perhaps I should add these projects to this page: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
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2016-08-11T07:18:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: "Library for checking the grammar of text in natural languages" weird, I was working on tagging text with parts of speech the other day
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2016-08-11T07:25:23Z beach: Great!
2016-08-11T07:27:58Z beach: As a prerequisite for that, it would be nice to have a database of words, where each word has a list of possible roles.  For example "flies" would have "verb in third person singular form" and "noun in plural form", etc.
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2016-08-11T07:30:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: beach: databases like that already exist, I'm using one for this
2016-08-11T07:30:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: let me find it
2016-08-11T07:30:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: http://icon.shef.ac.uk/Moby/mpos.html
2016-08-11T07:31:06Z beach: I meant, "to have such a database in Common Lisp"
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2016-08-11T07:31:45Z beach: ... as a set of class instances with defined protocols on them.
2016-08-11T07:32:23Z Petit_Dejeuner: What would the protocols look like for something like that?
2016-08-11T07:32:43Z beach: If I knew, I would already have written it.  Let's see...
2016-08-11T07:32:54Z beach: class WORD, to begin with.
2016-08-11T07:33:14Z beach: class CATEGORY or something similar.
2016-08-11T07:33:38Z beach: categories would be things like noun, verb, perhaps finer.
2016-08-11T07:34:30Z beach: An instance of VERB might have operations for the person and singular/plural.
2016-08-11T07:34:49Z beach: A word would have an operation returning a set of categories.
2016-08-11T07:34:53Z beach: Stuff like that.
2016-08-11T07:35:18Z beach: Without such a protocol, we are going to write parsers, specific protocols, etc. for each application.
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2016-08-11T07:52:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm wondering if I should use a parser or not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorial_grammar
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2016-08-11T08:00:36Z beach: When I mentioned "parsers", I meant parsing the syntax of the external form of the database into an in-memory database in the form of a collection of Common Lisp objects.
2016-08-11T08:01:05Z beach: I think you are talking about the phrases that you want to analyze.
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2016-08-11T08:05:31Z beach: For analyzing natural language, I would be inclined to use an Earley parser augmented with the object-oriented concept of inheritance and in which state transitions can be determined by arbitrary code if necessary.
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2016-08-11T08:07:52Z beach: It is the most flexible parser technology I know of, and it can use ambiguous grammars.  The result can encode all possible parse trees for a given phrase.
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2016-08-11T08:09:15Z Petit_Dejeuner: "When I mentioned "parsers", I meant parsing the syntax of the external form of the database into an in-memory database in the form of a collection of Common Lisp objects." That's already done, but it's just a hash table mapping words to lists of possible parts of speech right now.
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2016-08-11T08:10:32Z beach: Sure, I imagine it is already done, FOR YOUR PARTICULAR APPLICATION.  I am trying to save collective time here by defining a protocol so that a single such parser could be used for all applications that need this database.
2016-08-11T08:10:39Z Bike: natural language with a CFG?
2016-08-11T08:11:10Z Bike: offtopic, i know, sorry.
2016-08-11T08:11:43Z beach: Bike: That won't work.  But it could be the first step in a more complex analysis.
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2016-08-11T08:12:47Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Ignore me.  Do what you need to do.  For some reason, this discussion is depressing me.  I should do something else, like go to the store and buy groceries.
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2016-08-11T08:13:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: beach: I'm just having a little trouble following where the interface is and what's being reused.
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2016-08-11T08:13:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: This is mainly just me screwing around because I have some NLP experience and I was wondering how much of NLTK I could recreate in Common Lisp in an afternoon.
2016-08-11T08:14:14Z Bike: the CL representations of parts of speech, i think
2016-08-11T08:14:16Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, I think I am not expressing myself very well, despite having had ample practice with similar discussions.  That's what's so depressing I guess.
2016-08-11T08:14:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: Well, it is 4AM here.
2016-08-11T08:14:37Z Bike: presumably you don't just have ("run" -> "VERB", "ran" -> "VERB", ...)
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2016-08-11T08:15:57Z jackdaniel: there is cl-nlp for parsing the big datasets btw
2016-08-11T08:16:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: No, but it's close. (gethash "lisp" *word-legend*) => (:NOUN :VERB-USU-PARTICIPLE)
2016-08-11T08:16:14Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/vseloved/cl-nlp
2016-08-11T08:16:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: NIH
2016-08-11T08:16:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: Oh well, might as well read it.
2016-08-11T08:17:07Z jackdaniel: it contains many very useful tools or working with that
2016-08-11T08:18:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'll look at it later. Need to go to bed now.
2016-08-11T08:18:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: nn
2016-08-11T08:18:36Z jackdaniel: s/or/for/ s/that/nlp data/
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2016-08-11T09:25:02Z John[Lisbeth]: are values created by let and let* mutable?
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2016-08-11T09:26:48Z malice`: John[Lisbeth]: are you asking if you can change the value of the variable created with let(*)?
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2016-08-11T09:26:54Z John[Lisbeth]: yes
2016-08-11T09:27:01Z malice`: Did you try to do this in your REPL?
2016-08-11T09:27:16Z John[Lisbeth]: No. Would I use setf to do it?
2016-08-11T09:27:23Z malice`: Yep.
2016-08-11T09:27:27Z John[Lisbeth]: ty
2016-08-11T09:27:33Z malice`: np
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2016-08-11T09:34:45Z jdz: clhs binding
2016-08-11T09:34:45Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for binding.
2016-08-11T09:35:30Z jdz: anyway, LET (and of course LET*) creates bindings
2016-08-11T09:35:51Z jdz: those binding can indeed be changed by SETF (and SETQ)
2016-08-11T09:35:57Z jdz: bindings even
2016-08-11T09:36:36Z jdz: but that is not changing the values of those bindings (the value of a variable is what the variable is bound to)
2016-08-11T09:37:04Z Grue`: the mutability of values is not affected by where they are created. for example arrays are always mutable, while numbers or symbols are immutable
2016-08-11T09:37:47Z jdz: yes, and that is orthogonal to what variables those values are bound to
2016-08-11T09:38:04Z jdz: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_b.htm
2016-08-11T09:38:23Z jdz: even better: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_b.htm#binding
2016-08-11T09:39:47Z jdz: It is an important concept to grasp, especially when learning of parameter passing semantics.
2016-08-11T09:40:37Z jdz: LAMBDA binds variables to values the same way as LET does
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2016-08-11T09:41:25Z malice`: ^
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2016-08-11T10:52:08Z knobo`: Xach: Would it be possible to add a feature to quicklisp that made it download the latest/beta version of a library from the source instead of the official version. Something like (ql:quicklisp "some-lib" :beta t)
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2016-08-11T12:11:25Z |3b|: Grue`: values created by the reader while reading source code are (or at least should be treated as) immutable
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2016-08-11T13:03:06Z MrMc: Is there a common lisp web client that can use private key certificates?
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2016-08-11T13:05:58Z jackdaniel: MrMc: your best shot will be drakma, but I don't know whenever it does
2016-08-11T13:07:27Z fourier: ^ according to doc drakma support it: http://www.weitz.de/drakma/#arg-certificate
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2016-08-11T13:07:56Z Xach: knobo: what kind of source?
2016-08-11T13:08:08Z Xach: knobo: yes, it is theoretically possible
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2016-08-11T13:10:49Z Xach: knobo: not especially likely, though. "someone" could compile a dist that is quicklisp, but updated hourly/daily/weekly, and people could selectively use that in preference to quicklisp's default dist.
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2016-08-11T13:11:03Z Xach: that wouldn't require any changes to quicklisp itself
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2016-08-11T13:18:48Z MrMc: fourier: Thanks for that pointer will give it a try
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2016-08-11T13:59:42Z des_consolado: Hey sorry real noob question here but what happens when you compile some Lisp? What's it compiled into? It's implementation dependent, I guess? So take sbcl on Linux, what then? It's compiled into UNIX system calls like C stuff, or just assembly stuff somehow, or what?
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2016-08-11T14:00:45Z jdz: Code is usually compiled to machine code, but the Common Lisp runtime used is needed to load and run it.
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2016-08-11T14:02:26Z jdz: For instance, if you evaluate (disassemble 'car) you'll see the code for Common Lisp function CAR.
2016-08-11T14:03:56Z des_consolado: Wow nice
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2016-08-11T14:25:25Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2016-08-11T14:26:10Z jackdaniel: o/
2016-08-11T14:26:46Z zonit: o/
2016-08-11T14:27:32Z beach: zonit: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your name/handle.
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2016-08-11T14:34:44Z zonit: @beach yes
2016-08-11T14:35:07Z zonit: :
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2016-08-11T14:35:35Z des_consolado: jackdaniel: you don't happen to be from Wales do you?
2016-08-11T14:35:42Z beach: zonit: Welcome!
2016-08-11T14:36:00Z zonit: beach
2016-08-11T14:36:02Z des_consolado: (I once met a dude around there and we talked about stuff and I'm pretty sure they said on IRC they were named something similar to your username)
2016-08-11T14:36:08Z zonit: Thank you
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2016-08-11T14:37:25Z jackdaniel: des_consolado: no, I'm from Poland :)
2016-08-11T14:38:02Z des_consolado: ah okay haha, oh well
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2016-08-11T14:41:03Z barbone: hi
2016-08-11T14:41:17Z beach: Hello barbone.
2016-08-11T14:41:24Z barbone: please I've got problem connecting via ssh tunnel to a swank server
2016-08-11T14:41:38Z barbone: channel 3: open failed: connect failed:
2016-08-11T14:41:41Z barbone: on the server
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2016-08-11T14:43:25Z barbone: I opened a tunnel on the client with: ssh -L 4005:localhost:4005 user@server
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2016-08-11T14:44:10Z fade: open the tunnel with -vv to see what's happening.
2016-08-11T14:44:59Z fade is now known as Fade
2016-08-11T14:45:41Z barbone: Fade: I did
2016-08-11T14:45:45Z barbone: channel 3: open failed: connect failed:
2016-08-11T14:46:03Z Fade: sounds like the tunnel did not open.
2016-08-11T14:46:33Z barbone: debug2: channel 3: zombie
2016-08-11T14:47:35Z Fade: are you sure swank is started on the server side?
2016-08-11T14:47:41Z barbone: yes
2016-08-11T14:47:51Z Fade: is it listening on the port you think?
2016-08-11T14:47:53Z barbone: lsof shows it
2016-08-11T14:48:09Z barbone: ;; Swank started at port: 4005.
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2016-08-11T14:48:46Z barbone: (swank:create-server :port port :dont-close t)
2016-08-11T14:48:51Z barbone: port = 4005
2016-08-11T14:49:08Z jdz: also, is it listening on 127.0.0.1 or 0.0.0.0?
2016-08-11T14:49:21Z barbone: ?
2016-08-11T14:49:25Z barbone: jdz how?
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2016-08-11T14:50:09Z Fade: netstat
2016-08-11T14:50:44Z jdz: there's swank:*loopback-interface*
2016-08-11T14:51:11Z barbone: netstat | grep 4005
2016-08-11T14:51:13Z barbone: nothing
2016-08-11T14:51:13Z jdz: you should bind it/set to "127.0.0.1"
2016-08-11T14:51:34Z jdz: oh, i mean !
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2016-08-11T14:51:39Z jdz: "0.0.0.0"
2016-08-11T14:52:08Z jdz: although not sure, maybe with SSH tunnels it does not matter
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2016-08-11T14:52:32Z jdz: but if it's set to 127.0.0.1 it will only accept connections from localhost
2016-08-11T14:53:08Z Fade: the connection would appear to come from localhost.
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2016-08-11T14:53:47Z barbone: Cannot find the external symbol *LOOPBACK-INTERFACE* in #<"SWANK" package>..
2016-08-11T14:53:48Z jdz: Right.
2016-08-11T14:54:16Z jdz: Hmm, maybe it's no longer there... I was looking at 6 years old code.
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2016-08-11T15:03:37Z barbone: :(
2016-08-11T15:04:11Z jdz: barbone: have you tried connecting using netcat?
2016-08-11T15:04:15Z jdz: or telnet
2016-08-11T15:04:18Z barbone: yes
2016-08-11T15:04:22Z barbone: conection refused
2016-08-11T15:04:34Z jdz: also on the remote host?
2016-08-11T15:04:47Z barbone: on the server
2016-08-11T15:04:49Z jdz: i mean when SSHd on remote host and trying to connect locally?
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2016-08-11T15:05:00Z barbone: ?
2016-08-11T15:05:13Z jdz: i mean -- without the tunnel
2016-08-11T15:05:28Z barbone: yes 4005 is forbidden
2016-08-11T15:06:05Z barbone: connection refused
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2016-08-11T15:06:32Z jdz: so it appears that the swank server is not actually started properly.
2016-08-11T15:07:08Z barbone: on the remote machine I can connect on 4005
2016-08-11T15:07:14Z jdz: :/
2016-08-11T15:07:25Z jdz: how are you connecting?
2016-08-11T15:07:33Z barbone: if I launch a local emacs
2016-08-11T15:07:43Z barbone: it can connect to the local swank
2016-08-11T15:07:52Z barbone: M-x slime-connect
2016-08-11T15:07:55Z barbone: 127.0.0.1
2016-08-11T15:07:56Z barbone: 4005
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2016-08-11T15:15:59Z jdz: barbone: as a last resort, can you try ssh -L 4005:127.0.0.1:4005 ?
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2016-08-11T15:16:36Z jdz: or even ssh -L *:4005:127.0.0.1:4005
2016-08-11T15:16:38Z barbone: jdz: it works
2016-08-11T15:16:48Z jdz: yay!
2016-08-11T15:17:10Z barbone: ssh -L 4005:localhost:4005 angel@ci20
2016-08-11T15:17:25Z barbone: but now if I connect from a remote slime, it fails
2016-08-11T15:17:45Z jdz: because you're already connected?
2016-08-11T15:17:52Z barbone: no
2016-08-11T15:18:20Z barbone: ssh -L 4005:localhost:4005 angel@ci20 <- tunnel
2016-08-11T15:18:35Z barbone: now I connect from a remote slime using slime-connect
2016-08-11T15:18:58Z jdz: what do you mean by "from a remote slime"?
2016-08-11T15:19:45Z barbone: the slime from which I started the tunnel
2016-08-11T15:20:07Z barbone: connection broken by remote peer
2016-08-11T15:20:28Z barbone: on the server: channel 3: open failed: connect failed:
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2016-08-11T15:22:39Z jdz: why are you creating the tunnel from slime?
2016-08-11T15:22:48Z jdz: how do you even do it?
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2016-08-11T15:24:45Z barbone: solved
2016-08-11T15:25:00Z barbone: because I need to develop programs on an SBC
2016-08-11T15:25:48Z barbone: this SBC is slow compared to a PC, so I'd like to use emacs on a real PC
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2016-08-11T15:28:54Z jdz: OK, good to hear you've got it all up and running!
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2016-08-11T15:50:53Z barbone: jdz: thanks!
2016-08-11T15:51:10Z barbone: jdz: the problem was that I had to use 127.0.0.1 not localhost
2016-08-11T15:51:38Z barbone: either for the tunnel and slime-connectù
2016-08-11T15:51:39Z barbone: either for the tunnel and slime-connect
2016-08-11T15:52:28Z jdz: it might have something to do with /etc/hosts file -- maybe the IPv6 entry is before IPv4 one?
2016-08-11T15:54:52Z knobo: Xach: ok. I was thinking about making it easier to beta test next version of libraries.
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2016-08-11T15:55:16Z knobo: Xach: But I don't realy know how quicklisp works. I have only used it.
2016-08-11T15:55:28Z XachX_: knobo: it would be good to make that easy
2016-08-11T15:56:29Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: To this: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html page, I added this: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/english-word-class-library.html suggested project.
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2016-08-11T15:56:49Z knobo: So that could be done by maintain a custom dist, then?
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2016-08-11T15:58:16Z knobo: Where does alexandria:iota get's it name from?
2016-08-11T15:59:05Z jdz: I've overheard the discussion about it the other day here, and APL was mentioned.
2016-08-11T15:59:05Z knobo: the ninth letter of the Greek alphabet, probably.
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2016-08-11T16:06:23Z fourier: knobo: it is from APL programming language
2016-08-11T16:06:45Z knobo: pity that min and max does not accept 0 arguments. (min) => nil. or maybe not... I just a thought. since (+) => 0
2016-08-11T16:06:47Z fourier: knobo: in APL iota (
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2016-08-11T16:07:20Z fourier: knobo: in APL iota (⍳) used to generate lists of numbers
2016-08-11T16:07:36Z fourier: knobo: you can read more here: http://tryapl.org/
2016-08-11T16:08:12Z knobo: So, I can learn APL by coding lisp. Killing two birds with one stone.
2016-08-11T16:08:31Z fourier: heh APL is completely completely different beast
2016-08-11T16:08:33Z knobo: Except that one of the birds is already dead....
2016-08-11T16:08:41Z Grue`: (min) should be -infinity
2016-08-11T16:08:45Z knobo: fourier: I know.
2016-08-11T16:08:59Z knobo just beeing silly
2016-08-11T16:09:04Z fourier: apl is not dead, Dyalog APL is pretty active
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2016-08-11T16:09:31Z knobo: fourier: I saw a video about one guy winning a programming contest by using APL.
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2016-08-11T16:09:45Z akkad: when you print a var and get "#1#" what is that representing?
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2016-08-11T16:09:56Z knobo: I was quite inspired by that.
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2016-08-11T16:11:28Z fourier: knobo: they have own contests as well: http://dyalog.com/student-competition.htm . J language however is seems to be more popular - it is more advanced in some aspects of the core language and don't need special keyboard layout
2016-08-11T16:11:32Z Grue`: akkad: it's representing the object that was denoted by #1= previously
2016-08-11T16:11:33Z knobo: (reduce 'min nil) => nil
2016-08-11T16:11:39Z knobo: I'd like that.
2016-08-11T16:13:06Z akkad: Grue`: k. allegro dislike postmodern.
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2016-08-11T16:14:52Z Grue`: (let ((x (cons nil nil))) (setf (cdr x) x)) => #1=(NIL . #1#)
2016-08-11T16:15:23Z Grue`: (if *print-circle* is t otherwise it will hang)
2016-08-11T16:16:26Z Grue`: knobo: try (reduce 'min nil :initial-value nil)
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2016-08-11T16:16:58Z Grue`: nvm, it doesn't work for non-nil lists
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2016-08-11T16:20:36Z Grue`: (defun min-nil (list) (reduce 'min list :initial-value (car list)))
2016-08-11T16:21:11Z Grue`: such elegance ;_;
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2016-08-11T16:32:13Z knobo: (when list (reduce 'min list))
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2016-08-11T16:32:45Z jdz: I'd use (and list (reduce 'min list))
2016-08-11T16:33:54Z knobo: jdz: when you write that on one line it's ok. But using when indents better in emacs.
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2016-08-11T16:35:25Z knobo: Maybe I'd use when on the one line version also, as I like the nice colors in my emacs.
2016-08-11T16:35:26Z jdz: That's still debatable.
2016-08-11T16:35:56Z knobo: I was critisezed by one guy that my emacs looked like a christmas tree
2016-08-11T16:36:00Z beach: Those examples violate the style guide by Norvig and Pitman, page 13 of the LUV slides.  And I agree with them.
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2016-08-11T16:36:38Z jdz: beach: is there a link?
2016-08-11T16:36:49Z knobo: (so did his tie)....
2016-08-11T16:37:02Z jdz: beach: oh, nvm, first google hit...
2016-08-11T16:37:02Z beach: norvig.com/luv-slides.psby P Norvig - ‎1993 - ‎Cited by
2016-08-11T16:38:10Z beach: I would use (unless (null list) (reduce 'min list)) if that is the effect that is wanted.
2016-08-11T16:38:36Z jdz: I could adopt those conventions.
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2016-08-11T16:39:26Z knobo: Most spesific conditionsl: when. And just for booleans
2016-08-11T16:39:35Z beach: The example (WHEN LIST ...) violates the expectation that the first argument to WHEN is a Boolean.
2016-08-11T16:39:57Z knobo: right.
2016-08-11T16:40:31Z knobo: But it says in the doc there. and is for boolean. Not when.
2016-08-11T16:41:15Z beach: Right.  I am generalizing.  They don't list all possible cases.
2016-08-11T16:41:42Z sjl: or (when (consp list) ...) if your brain short-circuits on reading "unless" like mine does
2016-08-11T16:41:57Z beach: Oh, and (WHEN LIST ...) also violates the expectation that it should not be used as a general form, just as a "statement".
2016-08-11T16:42:10Z beach: ... i.e., a form that is evaluated for effect only.
2016-08-11T16:42:21Z jasom: Is there any way to have ASDF provide two diffferent fasl cache directories for the same implementation version?
2016-08-11T16:42:44Z jasom: My specific use-case is to have two configurations of sbcl, one of which forces the compiler optimization policy to be friendly for debugging
2016-08-11T16:43:25Z jasom: right now, my best solution is to build sbcl twice with a different version string, and then in my .sbclrc check the version string and set the compiler policy accordingly
2016-08-11T16:43:58Z jasom: so then I get a .cache/common-lisp/sbcl-3.3.6-debug-linux-x64 directory
2016-08-11T16:44:12Z beach: ... and so does my (UNLESS ...).  So the "correct" version here is (if (null list) nil (reduce ...)).
2016-08-11T16:44:57Z knobo: then I don't like the style guide...
2016-08-11T16:45:03Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
2016-08-11T16:45:54Z beach: I am off to fix dinner.
2016-08-11T16:46:35Z jasom: beach: oh, I had a question for you about SICL (answer after dinner if you like), can I pull parts of it into any lisp-bootstrapped implementation, or do I need to adopt SICL's idiosyncracies (e.g. global environments)
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2016-08-11T16:51:44Z knobo: what about LOCNW, then?
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2016-08-11T16:56:57Z fourier: is quickdocs somehow connected to hyperdoc?
2016-08-11T16:57:01Z Xach: fourier: no
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2016-08-11T16:58:05Z knobo: or, ot's wrong to say that I don't like the style guide. not just that part.
2016-08-11T16:58:07Z fourier: Xach: hm too bad. would be great to have an access from IDE to some package's API in an uniform way. both of them seems to provide own ways..
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2016-08-11T17:08:34Z Xach: It would be nice to have uniform documentation of good quality
2016-08-11T17:09:09Z akkad: odd all the dbd/postgres stuff fails on authentication with allegro
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2016-08-11T17:25:02Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: oi, do you have any short-term plans for CLX?
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2016-08-11T17:40:02Z fourier: hm, found what Clozure CL doesn't seem to correctly work with compound type specifier for slot
2016-08-11T17:40:31Z fourier: if I set the slot type as (or stream nil) it complains: http://paste.lisp.org/+6X2R
2016-08-11T17:40:46Z fourier: this code works fine in both SBCL and LW. Strange
2016-08-11T17:40:55Z Bike: (or stream nil) is stream
2016-08-11T17:40:58Z Bike: you meant (or stream null)
2016-08-11T17:41:24Z Bike: nil is the bottom type with no members. sbcl and lw only work because they're less scrupulous about checking, evidently.
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2016-08-11T17:43:14Z fourier: Bike: thanks, didn't know that.
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2016-08-11T17:47:42Z knobo: What's going on here: (or (mapcan 'listp '((1))) (or (mapcan 'listp '((1) 1))
2016-08-11T17:48:08Z knobo: what does (or (mapcan 'listp list)) do?
2016-08-11T17:49:26Z beach: It concatenates the individual lists that result from applying #'listp to the elements of the list.
2016-08-11T17:50:37Z akkad: fourier: #<stream-test @ #x10002a92082> works on allegro
2016-08-11T17:50:38Z akkad:  
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2016-08-11T17:51:39Z beach: clhs mapcan
2016-08-11T17:51:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm
2016-08-11T17:51:40Z Bike: i have no idea why that mapcan isn't erroring
2016-08-11T17:51:47Z beach: Yeah, it should.
2016-08-11T17:51:49Z beach: I think.
2016-08-11T17:52:35Z knobo: if the last element is not a list I get nil, if the last element is a list, I get t.
2016-08-11T17:52:36Z Bike: i mean, the first one is fine since there's only one element
2016-08-11T17:52:55Z Bike: but (mapcan 'listp '((1) 1)) "works" here, somehow
2016-08-11T17:53:11Z Bike: though i get T, not NIL
2016-08-11T17:53:39Z Bike: on ccl i get nil. okay, cool.
2016-08-11T17:53:41Z knobo: (or (mapcan 'listp '(nil 3))) != (or (mapcan 'listp '(3 nil)))
2016-08-11T17:53:42Z beach: (mapcan 'identity '(t)) => t
2016-08-11T17:53:45Z beach: Hmm.
2016-08-11T17:54:10Z beach: (mapcan 'identity '(a a)) => a
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2016-08-11T17:54:28Z beach: Is NCONC not working as I would expect?
2016-08-11T17:54:35Z Bike: i mean, it says pretty clearly that (mapcan foo bar) = (apply #'nconc (mapcar foo bar)), which does fail
2016-08-11T17:54:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks for setting that up beach. Maybe I'll have time to work on this later today.
2016-08-11T17:55:10Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Oh, I don't expect you to work on it.  But if you do, I would be delighted of course.
2016-08-11T17:55:35Z knobo: beach, Bike: in sbcl?
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2016-08-11T17:55:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: I probably won't.
2016-08-11T17:55:52Z phoe_: beach: I mailed them about it.
2016-08-11T17:55:53Z beach: knobo: Yeah.  I think we have discovered a problem.
2016-08-11T17:55:57Z phoe_: I once raised a mapcan issue.
2016-08-11T17:56:01Z Bike: knobo: on sbcl '((1) 1) => T, on ccl => NIL
2016-08-11T17:56:05Z beach: phoe_: Ah, OK.
2016-08-11T17:56:29Z phoe_: And they responded to me https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1577127
2016-08-11T17:56:36Z phoe_: tl;dr - yes, we know, and we won't fix it.
2016-08-11T17:56:53Z Bike: that's a pessimistic interpretation
2016-08-11T17:57:00Z phoe_: Also, calling mapcan a function that does *not* produce lists is a contract violation.
2016-08-11T17:57:08Z phoe_: with a function*
2016-08-11T17:57:26Z beach: phoe_: In Common Lisp, errors are not "thrown".  They are "signaled".
2016-08-11T17:57:36Z phoe_: beach: yes, thank you.
2016-08-11T17:57:42Z beach: phoe_: THROW is doing something different altogether.
2016-08-11T17:57:44Z Bike: i mean, he's right though, that second call is actually okay and returns 1
2016-08-11T17:58:10Z beach goes to spend time with his (admittedly small) family.
2016-08-11T17:58:15Z phoe_: See you!
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2016-08-11T17:58:36Z phoe_: Bike: it is, where you actually treat NIL as empty lists.
2016-08-11T17:58:52Z Bike: what else would you treat it as
2016-08-11T17:58:57Z phoe_: A boolean.
2016-08-11T17:59:04Z Bike: ...okay
2016-08-11T17:59:09Z Bike: i don't understand your point.
2016-08-11T17:59:43Z phoe_: I need to think on it a bit more, too.
2016-08-11T18:00:07Z Bike: mapcan is defined as apply #'nconc (mapcar ...). that sometimes doesn't return a list.
2016-08-11T18:00:17Z Bike: therefore things are annoying and dumb.
2016-08-11T18:00:18Z fourier: phoe_: just tried and got an error in LW
2016-08-11T18:00:38Z fourier: phoe_: Error: 1 (of type FIXNUM) is not of type LIST.
2016-08-11T18:00:55Z phoe_: fourier: try the same on SBCL.
2016-08-11T18:01:00Z phoe_: I think ECL doesn't err out either.
2016-08-11T18:01:06Z fourier: phoe_: SBCL returns 5
2016-08-11T18:01:18Z phoe_: yup
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2016-08-11T18:05:58Z knobo: But isn't (mapcan 'function-that-does-not-return-a-list list) wrong, and should signal an error.
2016-08-11T18:06:13Z Bike: it's not technically wrong
2016-08-11T18:06:19Z dlowe: A lot of things simply generate "undefined behavior"
2016-08-11T18:06:28Z Bike: there are some cases where it it is defined
2016-08-11T18:06:48Z dlowe: unless it explicitly says it should signal an error, then an implementation is free to do whatever.
2016-08-11T18:10:37Z PuercoPop: should we read the type error when not a list as only applying to its arguments or is mapcan excluded because the return value is named concanatenated-result instead of list?
2016-08-11T18:10:50Z Bike: that means the argument
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2016-08-11T18:11:02Z Bike: but it should signal an error, morally speaking
2016-08-11T18:12:10Z Bike: ah, extra good, sbcl does different things in compiled and interpreted code.
2016-08-11T18:12:51Z Bike: (mapcan 'listp '((1) 1)) => T, (funcall (compile nil '(lambda (x) (mapcan 'listp x))) '((1) 1)) => NIL
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2016-08-11T18:18:00Z PuercoPop: Bike: isn't the first snippet still compiled unless sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* is set to :interpret? (I got the same results either way though)
2016-08-11T18:18:31Z Bike: no, the repl does simple function calls itself
2016-08-11T18:19:31Z Bike: or rather eval does
2016-08-11T18:21:10Z PuercoPop: but eval calls compile with the default *evaluator-mode*
2016-08-11T18:21:55Z Bike: eval calls eval-in-lexenv, which checks evaluator-mode, and if it's compile, calls simple-eval-in-lexenv
2016-08-11T18:22:44Z Bike: which for anything complicated calls %simple-eval, which indeed calls compile
2016-08-11T18:24:26Z PuercoPop: You are right, I'm browsing the code now, thanks
2016-08-11T18:25:00Z Bike: it would be a bit silly to invoke the compiler on (+ 2 2), you know?
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2016-08-11T18:29:08Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: rather nothing particular, but I'm tempted to make it more portable across implementations (I'd love to get rid of ECL's bundled CLX module)
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2016-08-11T18:29:50Z Bike: anyway, so there's a source transform on mapcan (so that the calls can be transformed), but its strategy is slightly different so it gets different but also wrong results, pretty nice
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2016-08-11T18:32:56Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: one thing that would be nice is to have a issues what extensions are missing or what is missing in extensions. Mark some low hanging fruits in case people are interested in contributing
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2016-08-11T18:33:44Z PuercoPop: (there is a texinfo issue in the manual with @xref{:some-keyword}. Texinfo doesn't allow : inside of xrefs, it breaks in the info manual but not in the html manual
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2016-08-11T18:34:20Z PuercoPop: would you object if I open some issues and then ask you to add some tags?
2016-08-11T18:34:49Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: not at all (just include the requrested tag in the issue)
2016-08-11T18:34:57Z jackdaniel: tell me when you're done and I'll do it one by one
2016-08-11T18:35:47Z PuercoPop: ok, I'll do it next week then
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2016-08-11T20:07:04Z barbone: hi
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2016-08-11T20:15:58Z phoe_: Hey
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2016-08-11T20:49:10Z fourier: phoe: are you phoe_krk ? just to be sure
2016-08-11T20:49:40Z phoe: fourier: yes
2016-08-11T20:49:48Z phoe: I grabbed that nick because it was free
2016-08-11T20:50:10Z phoe: and also since phoe is my "main" one and krk is just a shorthand for Cracow, Kraków in Polsh
2016-08-11T20:50:13Z phoe: Polish
2016-08-11T20:50:44Z fourier: phoe: ok thanks ;)
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2016-08-11T20:59:26Z phoe: fourier: np :D
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2016-08-11T22:23:57Z drmeister: Hi lispers - does anyone know where errors like this come from?
2016-08-11T22:24:00Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/PBwtU1ui/
2016-08-11T22:24:34Z drmeister: I've wiped out the cache using:   rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/
2016-08-11T22:25:33Z drmeister: Or this:
2016-08-11T22:25:34Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/o5Ewyn0v/
2016-08-11T22:25:49Z drmeister: Am I not allowed to wipe out the cache?
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2016-08-11T22:43:19Z drmeister: I reinstalled sbcl and the problem went away.
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2016-08-11T22:52:19Z jasom: I've wiped out the cache before
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2016-08-11T22:52:49Z jasom: I don't know if I've done it without restarting sbcl though.
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2016-08-11T22:56:56Z drmeister: I was restarting sbcl over and over again
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2016-08-11T23:15:13Z jasom: no clue then
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