2016-08-06T00:01:01Z SlashLife: You can disagree with other peoples rules, then their guides aren't (necessarily) wrong, but inapplicaple. Or you agree to an extent, then you can deem them slightly/somewhat/kind of/mostly correct, or you can fully agree with them and deem them absolutely correct.
2016-08-06T00:01:36Z SlashLife: But that correctness is relative to your personal opinion, not to some objective ruleset.
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2016-08-06T00:03:46Z akkad: and the compiler
2016-08-06T00:05:24Z bitch is now known as THOT
2016-08-06T00:06:20Z THOT is now known as bitch
2016-08-06T00:09:03Z jasom: SlashLife: there are some styles that produce fewer defects than other styles, so in that case there is correct (or at least "better").  Most of the time the data does not exist to make such an argument though
2016-08-06T00:09:28Z jasom: SlashLife: just because it's hard to measure something doesn't mean that there isn't some objective measure.
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2016-08-06T00:15:22Z b3atr: clhs join
2016-08-06T00:15:22Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for join.
2016-08-06T00:16:23Z b3atr: is there a function similar to python join? (it must :D)
2016-08-06T00:16:33Z b3atr: jasom: ^
2016-08-06T00:16:42Z Bike: don't think so
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2016-08-06T00:18:27Z pierpa: what does python's join do?
2016-08-06T00:18:45Z Bike: '-'.join("ab", "cd", "ef") => "ab-cd-ef"
2016-08-06T00:18:57Z b3atr: yeah
2016-08-06T00:18:58Z akkad: format
2016-08-06T00:19:30Z pierpa: but everyone has that function in their personal lib, no?
2016-08-06T00:19:39Z Bike: i've never used it
2016-08-06T00:19:50Z Bike: (reduce (lambda (x y) (concatenate 'string x "-" y)) strings) works
2016-08-06T00:20:29Z pierpa: but it's inefficient
2016-08-06T00:20:30Z Bike: or (format nil "~{~a~^-~}" strings) as mentioned
2016-08-06T00:20:32Z jasom: b3atr: (format nil "~{~A~^SEPARATOR~}" ...)
2016-08-06T00:20:34Z b3atr: ok, thanks for all your help and patience.
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2016-08-06T00:21:11Z hetman`: b3atr: http://paste.debian.net/787150
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2016-08-06T00:21:29Z lol-icon: I have two lists of lists. What's the recommended way to compare the outer lists by value (equal), but the inner ones by object identity (eq)?
2016-08-06T00:21:45Z b3atr: I have to go to sleep now but I'll continue the requests tomorrow.
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2016-08-06T00:22:00Z pierpa: good night
2016-08-06T00:22:08Z jasom: b3atr: format is what people usually use for join
2016-08-06T00:22:12Z Bike: lol-icon: so you want this to be true if the lists are of the same length and the pairs of elements are eq?
2016-08-06T00:22:18Z b3atr: jasom: cheers
2016-08-06T00:22:24Z lol-icon: Bike: Yep, pretty much.
2016-08-06T00:22:24Z jasom: b3atr: good night
2016-08-06T00:22:32Z Bike: er, no, list of lists
2016-08-06T00:22:34Z b3atr: thanks
2016-08-06T00:22:58Z jasom: lol-icon: you could do a loop or a map/reduce
2016-08-06T00:23:07Z jasom: the loop could short-circuit which is faster
2016-08-06T00:23:27Z lol-icon: Ah, thanks!
2016-08-06T00:23:39Z jasom: something like: (reduce (lambda (x y) (and x y)) (map #'eq list-a list-b))
2016-08-06T00:24:08Z jasom: or even easier (every #'identity (map #'eq list-a list-b))
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2016-08-06T00:24:40Z jasom: or even better (every (lambda (x y) (eq x y)) list-a list-b) ; I forgot about every
2016-08-06T00:25:08Z jasom: but you need to check for length being equal for any of those
2016-08-06T00:25:27Z cromachina: and replace the lambda with #'eq
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2016-08-06T00:25:35Z jasom: cromachina: right
2016-08-06T00:25:43Z |3b| wonders if tree-equal would fit that problem statement
2016-08-06T00:26:05Z jasom: |3b|: no because it is considered not-a-leaf if it's a cons
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2016-08-06T00:27:19Z jasom: a loop would let you test for equality and length at the same time with a single traversal
2016-08-06T00:27:23Z jasom: but it's more code
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2016-08-06T00:29:10Z lol-icon: It seems kinda error prone, to be frank. Would it be equally acceptable to wrap the inner lists in objects, or would this not be idiomatic Lisp?
2016-08-06T00:29:53Z Bike: that would be overkill
2016-08-06T00:30:05Z jasom: lol-icon: it depends on what you are doing, of course.
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2016-08-06T00:30:40Z jasom: if your data has a relatively fixed structure, then using something other than a list is usually a good idea
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2016-08-06T03:33:19Z jack_rip_vim: https://github.com/JackRipVim/LispStuff
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2016-08-06T03:59:55Z akkad: when you get an exception in slime, how can you easily jump to the offending line of code?
2016-08-06T04:00:34Z |3b|: move cursor to one of the frames in backtrace and hit v
2016-08-06T04:00:53Z akkad: nice thanks
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2016-08-06T04:01:28Z |3b|: might not go to exact line depending on debug settings, but you can sometimes recompile the function with C-u C-c C-c and restart the frame in the debugger
2016-08-06T04:02:18Z |3b|: (restarting frames isn't magic though, it won't take streams back in time or undo any other global side effects made by the function already)
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2016-08-06T04:03:19Z akkad: let is lexically scoped by default? or is there a lexical-let?
2016-08-06T04:04:14Z |3b|: let is lexical unless there is a SPECIAL declaration, or a global PROCLAIM/DECLAIM (as for example made by DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER)
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2016-08-06T04:04:31Z akkad: k thanks
2016-08-06T04:04:33Z |3b|: same with any other bindings
2016-08-06T04:04:48Z |3b|: (well, variable bindings)
2016-08-06T04:04:49Z akkad: elisp confusion
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2016-08-06T05:43:58Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/04887a57afda1526e1e133cedc5695a7 other than style are there any obvious causes for performance concerns?
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2016-08-06T05:51:20Z akkad: = might be too expensive
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2016-08-06T07:42:47Z leupold: Hey guys, I'm having trouble setting up a Lisp environment on Ubuntu. so far it seems to involve a lot of yak shaving. Can someone direct me to a good tutorial on getting started with Lisp in Ubuntu?
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2016-08-06T07:48:30Z lexicall: I recommend spacemacs if you want emacs
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2016-08-06T07:48:55Z Grue`: I don't, vanilla emacs ftw!
2016-08-06T07:49:09Z Grue`: has nothing to do with setting up lisp though
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2016-08-06T07:49:40Z lexicall: well i found there is a lisp layer in spacemacs. so perhaps starting with it requires less stuggle
2016-08-06T07:49:44Z lexicall: struggle
2016-08-06T07:52:03Z leupold: Okay, thanks, I'll check it out
2016-08-06T07:52:04Z Grue`: leupold: go to sbcl.org, download Linux binary for AMD64. installing should be trivial (running install.sh)
2016-08-06T07:52:35Z Grue`: leupold: then go to quicklisp.org and follow the instructions
2016-08-06T07:53:04Z leupold: Grue: Thanks - yes, I've got sbcl installed - it's following the instructions at quicklisp that I've been finding problematic
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2016-08-06T07:54:19Z lexicall: have anybody succeed in embedding ECL? I use a cl_object, say, x, to receive the return value of a lisp func. I know it is a list but i don't know how to traverse it. I want to go through that list and printf each of its element. Is there any simple method to achieve this?
2016-08-06T07:54:20Z Grue`: well, you might want to expand on that in case Xach (the author of quicklisp) would want to clarify the instructions
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2016-08-06T07:56:11Z leupold: After I execute the third instruction in the list (gpg --verify quicklisp.lisp.asc quicklisp.lisp) I get the error: gpg: can't open 'quicklisp.lisp.asc' /n gpg verify signatures failed: file open error
2016-08-06T07:56:44Z leupold: Is this related to the fact that when i use curl it just prints the files to the terminal - it doesn't seem to actually download them
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2016-08-06T07:58:00Z lexicall: i guess the transmission error is rare and you needn't verify it
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2016-08-06T07:58:38Z Grue`: did you actually download quicklisp.lisp.asc?
2016-08-06T07:58:49Z Grue`: try wget
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2016-08-06T07:59:15Z leupold: How could I verify whether I downloaded it or not?
2016-08-06T08:00:08Z Grue`: ls quicklisp.lisp.asc
2016-08-06T08:01:17Z leupold: ls: cannot access 'xxx' : No such file or directory
2016-08-06T08:01:21Z leupold: I'll try using wget
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2016-08-06T08:05:12Z leupold: Okay, new error: "gpg: Can't check signature: public key not found"
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2016-08-06T08:06:42Z Grue`: you probably need to install quicklisp's key somehow (https://beta.quicklisp.org/release-key.txt)
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2016-08-06T08:07:25Z Grue`: just skip this stuff for now...
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2016-08-06T08:13:07Z leupold: Okay, I skipped all that stuff and followed the other commands
2016-08-06T08:13:41Z leupold: now when I try to load slime in emacs using "M-x slime" I get the error: [No match]
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2016-08-06T08:15:19Z Grue`: leupold: you need to put some stuff in your .emacs file to load slime
2016-08-06T08:15:29Z Grue`: (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el"))
2016-08-06T08:15:30Z Grue`:   (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")
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2016-08-06T08:16:17Z leupold: Okay, thanks - is there a straightforward way to open and edit my .emacs file? I'm not very familiar with command line text editor interfaces etc.
2016-08-06T08:16:56Z Grue`: C-x C-f ~/.emacs
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2016-08-06T08:17:16Z Grue`: you can also run a graphical Emacs, it even has a menu...
2016-08-06T08:19:01Z leupold: Would you recommend learning to use the command line emacs instead?
2016-08-06T08:19:42Z leupold: And thank you for all the help - I can now see the CL-USER> prompt :)
2016-08-06T08:20:04Z Grue`: there's not much difference between them, but I'm using GUI, it just looks better
2016-08-06T08:20:17Z Grue`: also it can even display images and stuff
2016-08-06T08:20:59Z leupold: good to know
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2016-08-06T08:21:09Z leupold: is the tutorial the best way to get started with emacs?
2016-08-06T08:22:08Z Grue`: there's a built-in tutorial when you press C-h t
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2016-08-06T08:22:38Z haom: hello
2016-08-06T08:23:20Z haom: is there a way to tell quicklisp to load explicitely from local-projects, and to load explicitely from the quicklisp repository?
2016-08-06T08:23:43Z haom: I have a case that I once loaded from the repo, and now it wont load my local-projects directory.
2016-08-06T08:23:43Z Grue`: afaik it always loads from local-projects first
2016-08-06T08:25:40Z haom: thats what I thought too, but now it doesnt any more and i'm looking for a reason.
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2016-08-06T11:08:59Z programisto: got a form (do-a b c); #(do-a b c) seems to comment it out as expected but unsure that's what's happening and how to even search for something like "#" ?
2016-08-06T11:10:13Z pierpa: #(do-a b c)  is a literal vector
2016-08-06T11:10:32Z programisto: pierpa: thanks
2016-08-06T11:10:55Z programisto: pierpal is that roughly like a "list" in python?
2016-08-06T11:11:10Z pierpa: nedankinde
2016-08-06T11:11:18Z pierpa: no idea
2016-08-06T11:11:29Z programisto: cool
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2016-08-06T11:12:01Z pierpa: is roughly like a literal vector in any other programming language though
2016-08-06T11:12:13Z programisto: heh
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2016-08-06T11:19:45Z phoe: programisto: it's not commenting it out!
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2016-08-06T11:20:11Z phoe: #( is a vector notation. Which means, a one-dimensional array.
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2016-08-06T11:22:56Z programisto: gotcha
2016-08-06T11:24:06Z phoe: (do-a b c) is a list. Do you know what single-linked lists work like in general?
2016-08-06T11:24:13Z phoe: s/what/how/
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2016-08-06T11:26:30Z programisto: phoe: yeah, read through pcl, have an understanding
2016-08-06T11:27:08Z programisto: just used to python and clojure where single-linked lists are less important
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2016-08-06T11:28:59Z phoe: programisto: welcome to Lisp, where everything is a single-linked list!*
2016-08-06T11:29:07Z phoe: *unless it's an atom
2016-08-06T11:29:20Z phoe: **unless it's a nil, which is both
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2016-08-06T11:30:41Z programisto: ;; :)
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2016-08-06T12:56:03Z dim: building an alist (named including), this form looks... ugly: (or (assoc schema-name including :test #'string=) (progn (push (cons schema-name nil) including) (assoc schema-name including :test #'string=)))
2016-08-06T12:56:16Z dim: is there an usual way to avoid the double assoc call here?
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2016-08-06T13:18:42Z phoe: dim: show me a bigger codepiece
2016-08-06T13:18:52Z phoe: I'll try to help with minimizing it
2016-08-06T13:19:04Z pjb: dim: (pushnew (cons k v) alist :key 'car :test 'eql)
2016-08-06T13:19:24Z phoe: oh! so it looks like this.
2016-08-06T13:19:25Z pjb: dim: well, (pushnew (cons k v) alist :key 'car :test 'string=) in your case.
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2016-08-06T13:21:55Z dim: and does it return the new alist entry or the new alist?
2016-08-06T13:22:11Z pjb: new-place-value
2016-08-06T13:22:15Z pjb: the new alist
2016-08-06T13:22:20Z dim: I think it returns the new alist, right? I'm doing an extra assoc so as to return the new alist *entry*
2016-08-06T13:22:50Z dim: so that I can then push things there
2016-08-06T13:23:10Z pjb: That said, I have an aget and (setf aget) that might be better, since pushnew won't change the old value, if that's what you want to do.
2016-08-06T13:23:16Z pjb: (alexandria too, IIRC).
2016-08-06T13:23:45Z dim: well my current solution works, I just find it ugly to have to call assoc twice
2016-08-06T13:23:50Z dim: maybe I should just stop caring
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2016-08-06T13:24:19Z pjb: to avoid it, you would have to write a custom function.
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2016-08-06T13:24:35Z pjb: So it all depends on the length of your alist.
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2016-08-06T13:26:40Z dim: generally short enough that I didn't care to use an hash-table instead, it's used to model schema and tables from a database
2016-08-06T13:31:08Z pierpa: you could also use ACONS to make it slightly pretier
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2016-08-06T15:12:45Z Grue`: dim: doesn't the second assoc alswa
2016-08-06T15:13:10Z Grue`: ys return (cons schema-name nil) ?
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2016-08-06T15:14:21Z Grue`: because you just pushed it into alist
2016-08-06T15:15:25Z leupold: When I run this code: pastebin.com/93pGgyeQ I get the error "The function COMMON-LISP-USER::F is undefined." - can anyone tell me what's wrong with the code and how to fix it?
2016-08-06T15:16:04Z programisto: http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#regex-replace
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2016-08-06T15:16:48Z dim: Grue`: good thinking thanks
2016-08-06T15:17:28Z programisto: reading that, should this work ?   (cl-ppcre:regex-replace "(?i)/(?i)" var :replacement #'replacement)
2016-08-06T15:17:30Z dim: I want to be one level up tho
2016-08-06T15:17:43Z programisto: with (defun replacement (&key match register-1 register-2)
2016-08-06T15:17:55Z programisto: seem to be missing something basic...
2016-08-06T15:18:13Z pierpa: (funcall (lambda (f) (funcall f '(b c)))
2016-08-06T15:18:13Z pierpa:                 (lambda (x) (cons 'a x)))
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2016-08-06T15:20:01Z pierpa: the first funcall is not necessary, actually. The second one it is.
2016-08-06T15:21:51Z programisto: actually :simple-calls 2 is suppoed to work for the above replacement, but still get "odd number of *KEY arguments" wit
2016-08-06T15:22:08Z programisto: :simple-calls t*
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2016-08-06T15:23:22Z pierpa: programisto: that function has 3 required arguments
2016-08-06T15:24:05Z pierpa: which in your case are "a-funny-string" var :replacement
2016-08-06T15:24:19Z pierpa: and then there's a dangling one
2016-08-06T15:24:55Z programisto: ah
2016-08-06T15:25:49Z programisto: ok
2016-08-06T15:26:11Z programisto: had those as required arguments, got the "odd numbe of *key arguements) which led me to trying funny things with &key
2016-08-06T15:26:41Z pierpa: the keys consists of the single last argument. 1 is odd hence the complaint :)
2016-08-06T15:28:16Z programisto: good to know. thanks
2016-08-06T15:28:46Z programisto: i really really enjoy writing common lisp
2016-08-06T15:28:53Z programisto: have read complaints about it for years
2016-08-06T15:29:02Z programisto: but it makes me a lot happier than a lot of other languages
2016-08-06T15:29:42Z pierpa: kinda like home sweet home
2016-08-06T15:29:47Z programisto: heh yeah
2016-08-06T15:30:03Z pjb: programisto: here's why you can't trust popularity when choosing programming languages.
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2016-08-06T15:33:56Z Grue`: leupold: you need (funcall f '(b c))
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2016-08-06T15:35:08Z Grue`: leupold: in Common Lisp there's separate namespaces for variables and functions. so function calls like (foo bar) expect foo to be a function name
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2016-08-06T15:49:11Z phoe: leupold: that's why you can have a variable called FOO and a function called FOO.
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2016-08-06T15:58:31Z lol-icon: Are the slots of an object always completely determined by its class, or is it possible to add “ad-hoc slots” as in, say, Python?
2016-08-06T15:59:07Z cromachina: depends on the underlying format that you choose
2016-08-06T15:59:39Z lol-icon: Ah. What's the default format?
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2016-08-06T16:00:40Z cromachina: hmm maybe im thinking of structs
2016-08-06T16:00:48Z lol-icon: Oh.
2016-08-06T16:01:08Z cromachina: one of those you could choose the representation, like a list or vector
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2016-08-06T16:06:18Z cromachina: perhaps instead choose an object system that fits that style, like a prototypical system
2016-08-06T16:06:21Z cromachina: http://www.cliki.net/Sheeple
2016-08-06T16:07:14Z cromachina: or maybe extensions to clos
2016-08-06T16:07:16Z lol-icon: Actually, I just wanted to know how CLOS works, rather than change it. :-p
2016-08-06T16:07:20Z cromachina: http://www.cliki.net/language%20extension
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2016-08-06T16:08:44Z loke_`: Hello DeadTrickster
2016-08-06T16:08:48Z loke_`: What's up?
2016-08-06T16:09:02Z DeadTrickster: loke_`, hey, I'm melting
2016-08-06T16:09:10Z DeadTrickster: too hot to stay alive
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2016-08-06T16:12:35Z loke_`: DeadTrickster: How hot is it?
2016-08-06T16:12:52Z Grue`: lol-icon: it's possible to add slots at runtime. not like in Python, but it's possible
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2016-08-06T16:13:00Z loke_`: Hot weather is nice.
2016-08-06T16:14:25Z DeadTrickster: loke_`, like 35C
2016-08-06T16:14:59Z loke_`: DeadTrickster: That's not too bad.
2016-08-06T16:15:28Z loke_`: It's fairly normal in Singapore.
2016-08-06T16:15:35Z loke_`: (add to that close to 100% humidity)
2016-08-06T16:16:43Z loke_`: djdjdj
2016-08-06T16:17:35Z DeadTrickster: ugh
2016-08-06T16:19:10Z loke_`: DeadTrickster: Where are you at?
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2016-08-06T16:20:15Z lol-icon: Grue`: I understand that it's possible to change the class of an object at runtime, and that this changes the object's slots to conform to the layout of the new class. Are you talking about this?
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2016-08-06T16:20:23Z DeadTrickster: loke_`, Russia, near Moscow
2016-08-06T16:20:52Z loke_`: DeadTrickster: Hmm, you never told me that before, did you?
2016-08-06T16:21:13Z loke_` used to spend lots of time in Moscow. But I haven't been there in more than a decade
2016-08-06T16:21:20Z DeadTrickster: loke_`, I even sent you pictures of my town )
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2016-08-06T16:21:28Z loke_`: Ah yes, now I remember.
2016-08-06T16:21:53Z DeadTrickster: loke_`, speaking of Singapore, I heard it's like Asian Silicon Valley, tons of start-ups and stuff
2016-08-06T16:24:28Z loke_`: DeadTrickster: Well... Hard to say.
2016-08-06T16:24:36Z loke_`: DeadTrickster: Depends on what you mean, I guess.
2016-08-06T16:25:10Z loke_`: But if you want to have a company in SE Asia, Singapore is your best bet. In partciular, the legal system and government is stable enough that you'll have few surprises. And there is very little corruption.
2016-08-06T16:25:25Z loke_`: And the government is very startup-friendly.
2016-08-06T16:26:27Z DeadTrickster: loke_`, well it's more like I'm looking for a nice job )
2016-08-06T16:26:37Z loke_`: DeadTrickster: What kind of job?
2016-08-06T16:27:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: ...citizenship is only a million dollars, right?
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2016-08-06T16:27:36Z loke_`: Petit_Dejeuner: You get citizenship after a few years of permanent residency, if you want.
2016-08-06T16:28:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: Sounds a lot cheaper.
2016-08-06T16:28:22Z loke_`: Yes :-)
2016-08-06T16:29:05Z loke_`: There is indeed a special visa (which can lead to citizenship if you want) which involves you investing a certain amount of money in local business.
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2016-08-06T16:29:22Z loke_`: It's very difficult to get that one though. It's very tightly controlled.
2016-08-06T16:29:35Z loke_`: Getting a normal work permit is easier.
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2016-08-06T16:31:45Z DeadTrickster: loke_`,  preferably Erlang/Elixir, Lisp server-side
2016-08-06T16:33:08Z loke_`: DeadTrickster: I have an acquantance who's working on Scala. I believe they'r ehiring.
2016-08-06T16:33:14Z loke_`: Banking industry
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2016-08-06T16:42:45Z dim: can I just (delete item list) or should I always (setf list (delete item list))?
2016-08-06T16:42:53Z loke_`: dim: Yes
2016-08-06T16:43:03Z DeadTrickster: loke_`, not sure I have enough experience with Scala (
2016-08-06T16:44:29Z dim: hehe, thx loke_`
2016-08-06T16:45:00Z pjb: dim: the later.
2016-08-06T16:45:24Z pjb: dim: think about deleting the first element of the list, or the last remaining element.
2016-08-06T16:45:38Z axion: keep in mind that consequences are undefined modifying a literal list
2016-08-06T16:47:14Z loke_`: Another way to think about it is that DELETE is to REMOVE what NCONC is to APPEND. An optimisation. They should be used exactly the same, with the only difference that the former modifies the data in-place
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2016-08-06T16:47:40Z loke_`: In fact, I should be saying _may_modify_
2016-08-06T16:47:54Z loke_`: A legal implementation of of DELETE would simply call REMOVE
2016-08-06T16:48:28Z dim: pjb: yes, thx
2016-08-06T16:50:39Z cromachina: dim: alexandria and rutils provide macros for that as well
2016-08-06T16:50:42Z cromachina: deletef for example
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2016-08-06T17:00:08Z phoe: deletef <3
2016-08-06T17:00:33Z phoe: finally a counter-macro for pushnew
2016-08-06T17:01:51Z phoe: loke_`: isn't it okay to say that the usable result for DELETE, NCONC and so on is only in its return value?
2016-08-06T17:02:19Z phoe: Like - the arguments provided to them become undefined after the function call?
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2016-08-06T17:03:35Z phoe: Bbl.
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2016-08-06T17:05:18Z pipping: jackdaniel: I'm starting to get an idea why process-status doesn't work the way it should anywhere.
2016-08-06T17:05:37Z pipping: jackdaniel: waitpid() is just terrible
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2016-08-06T17:17:19Z jackdaniel: well, then it fits nicely into ecl's unixsys.d file ;-)
2016-08-06T17:19:14Z pipping: jackdaniel: well. The good news is: waitid() (note the missing p) from POSIX.1-2008 which you'll at least get on Linux is considerably less insane
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2016-08-06T17:21:49Z jackdaniel: I'm also concerned with the {Net,Open,Free,Dragon}BSD, but if there is now way to fix it with waitpid we'll have to ifdef it for the Linux platform
2016-08-06T17:22:30Z jackdaniel: s/now/no/
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2016-08-06T17:22:59Z jackdaniel: if you could post this information on the gitlab under the issue you created it would be great
2016-08-06T17:23:13Z jackdaniel: I'll ask bsd people about the support for waitid
2016-08-06T17:23:38Z pipping: jackdaniel: So the basic issue is: process-status (which is the interface that's sort of agreed upon in the list world, apparently) is supposed to report what the current status of a process is. waitid and waitpid only register changes. So if a process goes to sleep and you use wait*id twice, you'll get "went to sleep" the first time and "no changes" the
2016-08-06T17:23:38Z pipping: second time. So ECL will have to do the book keeping. If "no changes" is returned then one can just hand out the old status
2016-08-06T17:25:26Z pipping: jackdaniel: waitid is nicer in two ways: (1) It allows you to ask for the change "a process woke up" (so SIGCONT), too. waitpid simply won't register such a change. and (2) it special-cases the case "exited". So you can just ask a process that's exited repeatedly and it will not just tell you "not changes" but "exited".
2016-08-06T17:26:06Z pipping: jackdaniel: I've coded up an example to figure out how these things work. I'll clean it up a bit and then paste it somewhere.
2016-08-06T17:26:21Z joshe: waitid doesn't appear to be implemented on openbsd, fwiw
2016-08-06T17:26:26Z oleo: 4 out of 125 total tests failed: SEM-SIGNAL-N-PROCESSES, SEM-SIGNAL-ONLY-N-PROCESSES,
2016-08-06T17:26:26Z oleo:    SEM-INTERRUPTED-RESIGNALS, MBOX-1-TO-N-BLOCKING.
2016-08-06T17:26:26Z oleo: 1 unexpected failures: MBOX-1-TO-N-BLOCKING.
2016-08-06T17:26:54Z jackdaniel: yes, mbox fails sometimes too, noticed it lately while working on tests
2016-08-06T17:27:07Z jackdaniel: (by lately I mean yesterday, nice coincidence)
2016-08-06T17:27:15Z jackdaniel: joshe: thanks for the info
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2016-08-06T17:27:47Z pipping: joshe: bummer. Apple has it in sys/wait.h and that says "Copyright (c) 2000 Apple Computer, Inc" at the top. So either Apple didn't update that or OpenBSD is 16 years behind :P
2016-08-06T17:28:25Z jackdaniel: bsd's tend to add features if there is at least a moderate demand for them from what I've witnessed
2016-08-06T17:28:43Z joshe: the former, I would guess
2016-08-06T17:28:55Z pipping resists the temptation to change his nick to moderate-demand
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2016-08-06T17:29:03Z jackdaniel: heheh
2016-08-06T17:29:42Z joshe: yes, nobody is going to spend their free time implementing the latest mess of a standard unless it actually ends up being used ;)
2016-08-06T17:30:13Z jackdaniel: I'll be back tomorrow, I have to go now
2016-08-06T17:30:21Z jackdaniel: pipping: thanks for investigating that
2016-08-06T17:30:32Z jackdaniel will read the logs
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2016-08-06T17:36:39Z pipping: xnu-517.9.5 didn't have waitid but xnu-792 does. that was in 2006, with the switch to intel.
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2016-08-06T17:38:18Z pipping: jackdaniel: freebsd has waitid: http://fxr.watson.org/fxr/source/sys/wait.h
2016-08-06T17:38:28Z pipping: jackdaniel: netbsd has waitid: https://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-current/src/sys/sys/wait.h
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2016-08-06T17:43:52Z pipping: only barely, though. freebsd added it in 2012 ( https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd/commits/af3e10e5a78d3af8cef6088748978c6c612757f0/lib/libc/gen/waitid.c ), netbsd added it this april! ( https://github.com/IIJ-NetBSD/netbsd-src/commits/6c3b5e349818d4fe31b6d5560bb13027024c0f65/lib/libc/gen/waitid.c )
2016-08-06T17:45:42Z oleo: wth, 2006 they declared it, 2012 they implemented it
2016-08-06T17:47:18Z oleo: or did i get something wrong ?
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2016-08-06T18:02:34Z pipping: oleo: who do you mean by "them"?
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2016-08-06T18:05:17Z pipping: jackdaniel: good news: HP-UX has waitid. Kidding, that's not the good news. The good news is: The WNOWAIT flag of waitid means: You're no longer given changes in status but actual statuses. Wow. That might not sound like much but after what waitpid gives you that's like a dream come true.
2016-08-06T18:05:52Z pipping: jackdaniel: which means with waitid you don't need to do any bookkeeping whatsoever.
2016-08-06T18:13:49Z pipping:  jackdaniel here's the code: https://gist.github.com/pipping/5c00e0fd4e60a9c34174060551425511 -- You can select between waitpid, waitid, and waitid with WNOWAIT through #define print_status. the third of those gives me this output, which seems rather reasonable: http://dpaste.com/093E1PG
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2016-08-06T18:18:38Z pipping: jackdaniel: (it might be a bit counter-intuitive that the child is reported as running after SIGSTOP was sent but the parent process is just too fast for the child to handle that signal. Hence the sleep(1). After that (or actually a lot less than 1s), the child is properly reported as stopped.
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2016-08-06T19:03:33Z akkad: anyone still use netbsd?
2016-08-06T19:07:28Z eschatologist: Some people still use it, yes.
2016-08-06T19:07:56Z eschatologist: For example, it lets my SPARCstation 20 run a relatively modern OS that's also largely binary-compatible with Solaris.
2016-08-06T19:08:09Z akkad: most secure os too
2016-08-06T19:08:15Z eschatologist: And there are plenty of people who use it on x86.
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2016-08-06T19:10:45Z phoe: akkad: I had the pleasure of coorganizing pkgsrcCon 2016 in Cracow.
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2016-08-06T19:11:05Z phoe: There's a lot of movement in the NetBSD world, just like with all other Unices and Unixlikes.
2016-08-06T19:12:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: akkad: why the most secure?
2016-08-06T19:12:26Z phoe: But I think this is most likely a #lispcafe discussion.~
2016-08-06T19:12:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: okay :(
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2016-08-06T19:15:42Z akkad: on sparc32? security through minority
2016-08-06T19:16:12Z akkad: pkgsrc on non-netbsd systems thought right phoe?
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2016-08-06T19:19:59Z phoe: akkad: non-netbsd?
2016-08-06T19:20:01Z phoe: no, why?
2016-08-06T19:20:17Z phoe: all of them, including netbsd.
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2016-08-06T21:14:50Z pipping: jackdaniel: mirbsd (derived from openbsd, so not surprising) doesn't have waitid btw: https://www.mirbsd.org/cvs.cgi/src/sys/sys/wait.h?rev=1.1.1.1 and surprisingly dragonflybsd which you mentioned earlier (derived from freebsd i believe) doesn't either: http://gitweb.dragonflybsd.org/dragonfly.git/blob/HEAD:/sys/sys/wait.h
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2016-08-06T21:25:35Z akkad: trig?
2016-08-06T21:25:39Z akkad: bitrig?
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2016-08-06T21:28:16Z pipping: fine, I'll bite. no waitid on bitrig ( https://github.com/bitrig/bitrig/blob/master/sys/sys/wait.h ) - an OS which I had never even heard of until just now :P
2016-08-06T21:28:42Z dim: it's supposed to be the new OpenBSD IIRC
2016-08-06T21:30:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: Why would someone make a new one?
2016-08-06T21:32:37Z pipping: "Bitrig wants to foster an open source community with the goal of creating an operating system that is free and fun to work on." -- https://github.com/bitrig/bitrig/wiki/Faq
2016-08-06T21:32:50Z pipping: So people didn't get along once more, I'd say
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2016-08-06T21:34:13Z pipping: Actually, no. Further down (same page) it says "We want to be less restrictive with the codebase when it comes to experimenting with features."
2016-08-06T21:36:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: "Target actively developing hardware only. Legacy platforms are fun to hack on however we are trying to go along with new trends."
2016-08-06T21:36:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: "Use social networks to disseminate information and news."
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2016-08-06T21:36:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: I think they might have trouble finding volunteers.
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2016-08-06T21:40:29Z akkad: theo free openbsd
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2016-08-06T21:40:44Z akkad: theo kicks a lot of people out
2016-08-06T21:41:00Z akkad: and so those people can go to netbsd, which they openly accept, or fork like bitrig
2016-08-06T21:41:28Z akkad: hard to be fanatical about an OS and then be kicked out
2016-08-06T21:41:35Z akkad: for one bad look at theo
2016-08-06T21:41:50Z akkad: it's pretty much what he accused us of doing when we kicked him out of netbsd
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2016-08-06T21:52:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: "kicked him out" What does that even mean? You stop reading his patches?
2016-08-06T21:53:27Z moore33: Take away his commit privs.
2016-08-06T21:53:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: So he can't directly change the code?
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2016-08-06T21:53:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: Most people can't, right?
2016-08-06T21:53:58Z akkad: oops that was for #lispcafe
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2016-08-06T22:04:19Z pipping: I was wondering (for anyone familiar with clozure cl): Is there an s-expression that gives me the result of #$CONSTANT?
2016-08-06T22:05:29Z pipping: Because I cannot use #$CONSTANT directly in portable code -- even if I put it after #+ccl other implementations still need to be able to parse that.
2016-08-06T22:06:29Z pipping: I ended up with (read-from-string "#$CONSTANT") but I was hoping for something cleaner.
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2016-08-06T22:07:07Z pipping: ccl::load-os-constant would do but it's private :(
2016-08-06T22:10:25Z phoe: #$ seems to be a reader macro that's not defined in standard CL.
2016-08-06T22:10:28Z phoe: #ccl might help you.
2016-08-06T22:10:35Z Bike: that is what they said, yes
2016-08-06T22:10:57Z Bike: you might want to just use load-os-constant, ccl seems to export a lot less than it should and sometimes the manual even tacitly recommends using such things
2016-08-06T22:10:57Z pipping: Oh. Didn't know they had a separate channel.
2016-08-06T22:11:27Z phoe: They do.
2016-08-06T22:11:28Z pipping: Bike: I had that impression with ccl already. Thanks for confirming that :)
2016-08-06T22:11:30Z arbv: #$ - as far as i know - is a special macro to use C-constants in CL.
2016-08-06T22:11:45Z pipping: yes it is
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