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2016-07-31T02:18:38Z aries_liuxueyang: Hello
2016-07-31T02:19:08Z cromachina: salutations
2016-07-31T02:20:13Z aries_liuxueyang: in the function: (remove-if-not #'some-fun some-list), what if the SOME-FUN requires more than one arguments.
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2016-07-31T02:21:01Z cromachina: use a lambda to fill in the blanks
2016-07-31T02:21:01Z Bike: then it ain't gonna work
2016-07-31T02:21:23Z cromachina: (remove-if-not (lambda (thing) (some-fun thing other-argument)) some-list)
2016-07-31T02:22:00Z aries_liuxueyang: cromachina: oh, good idea. thank you so much. ;-)
2016-07-31T02:22:05Z cromachina: no problemo
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2016-07-31T02:29:09Z Polyphony: it might be an awful idea, but how could I go about writing a macro that expands to an "n" number of "(f (f (f ...)))" calls?  I'm having trouble finding a recursive solution :/
2016-07-31T02:30:27Z cromachina: dont make the macro recursive
2016-07-31T02:30:35Z cromachina: make a recursive helper function instead
2016-07-31T02:30:42Z cromachina: that emits the code for the macro
2016-07-31T02:30:57Z Bike: (defmacro deep (n op form) (if (zerop n) form `(,op (deep ,(1- n) ,op ,form)))), then (deep 5 1+ -5)
2016-07-31T02:31:05Z Bike: or a helper function, i mean, whatever floats ur boat.
2016-07-31T02:31:21Z cromachina: well you could do that ^
2016-07-31T02:31:34Z cromachina: but weirdness in recursive macros can bite you in the rear
2016-07-31T02:33:37Z cromachina: alternatively you can use reduce, since that's what it looks like you are trying to make
2016-07-31T02:34:01Z cromachina: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_reduce.htm
2016-07-31T02:34:02Z Polyphony: hmm...
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2016-07-31T02:34:46Z Bike: fpower is only vaguely like reduce
2016-07-31T02:35:21Z cromachina: ah right, the other argument
2016-07-31T02:36:31Z Bike: i mean, it is like (reduce #'funcall (make-list n op) :initial-value form :from-end t).
2016-07-31T02:36:34Z Bike: but don't do that.
2016-07-31T02:39:59Z Polyphony: hehe I'm just messing with the mandlebrot set and I got stuck finding an elegant way to pass the output of "z^2 + c" into the args for the next call
2016-07-31T02:40:17Z Polyphony: I feel like there's an obvious recursive solution but it's escaping me
2016-07-31T02:42:34Z cromachina: the imperative solution says z = z^2 + c, until dist(z) > threshold or iterations > limit.
2016-07-31T02:42:51Z Bike: i'd just do something like (loop repeat max for i for z = whatever then (+ (* z z) c) while (< (abs z) threshold) finally (return i))?
2016-07-31T02:42:52Z cromachina: converting it to a recursive solution would have each argument be what you are updating
2016-07-31T02:43:20Z Bike: er, for z = c
2016-07-31T02:43:30Z Bike: i guess i starts at one then. whatever.
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2016-07-31T02:44:27Z Bike: for i from 1. bam
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2016-07-31T02:48:42Z pillton: Any ideas on how to make asdf load a component if a slime contrib is loaded?
2016-07-31T02:50:34Z cromachina: assuming the system is in your asdf search path, (asdf:load-system :system-name)
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2016-07-31T03:08:13Z didi: pillton: Component or system? If you mean system, type at the REPL , load-system RET system-name RET
2016-07-31T03:08:28Z Bike: i think pillton means a trigger
2016-07-31T03:08:42Z Bike: so that, when a slime contrib is loaded, something else is loaded as well
2016-07-31T03:08:49Z didi: oic
2016-07-31T03:08:49Z Bike: or maybe the other way, a conditional dependency
2016-07-31T03:10:27Z pillton: This is as close as I can get. http://paste.lisp.org/display/321746
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2016-07-31T03:11:10Z pillton: You can't use :depends-on ((:require :swank-indentation)) as the keyword gets converted to a string.
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2016-07-31T03:17:20Z pillton: Oh, before I forget. ~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el calls slime-setup which can cause some trouble if you set slime-contribs in your .emacs.
2016-07-31T03:17:44Z pillton: Perhaps this should be mentioned somewhere.
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2016-07-31T03:25:28Z pillton: Bike: Are you interested in adding enclose to introspect-environment?
2016-07-31T03:25:52Z Bike: i could, but honestly, i'm surprised to hear you actually used the thing
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2016-07-31T03:31:29Z pillton: I have a macro which dispatches according to its own namespace. You need ENCLOSE if you want to introduce a new binding with lexical scope into this namespace. e.g. With macrolet, you have to compile the macro function body before inserting it in to the lexical environment.
2016-07-31T03:32:16Z Bike: any chance i can see what that looks like?
2016-07-31T03:34:02Z pillton: Here is a snippet: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321749
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2016-07-31T03:35:39Z Bike: uh, wow.
2016-07-31T03:37:03Z pillton: I'm pretty sure enclose is really (coerce (macroexpand-all lambda-form env) 'function).
2016-07-31T03:37:10Z Bike: that reminds me, i was going to kill parse-compiler-macro since it's bullshit...
2016-07-31T03:37:37Z Bike: enclose also does declarations and stuff.
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2016-07-31T03:38:28Z pillton: I'll have to re-read enclose.
2016-07-31T03:38:34Z pillton: Don't remove parse-compiler-macro. I use it.
2016-07-31T03:39:05Z pillton: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/blob/master/src/common.lisp#L4
2016-07-31T03:39:19Z Bike: enclose is macro stuff only. so, same as what affects macrolet bodies and is in environment parameters.
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2016-07-31T03:39:34Z Bike: i'm glad you find it useful, but https://github.com/Bike/introspect-environment/blob/master/sbcl.lisp#L43 is seriously terrible.
2016-07-31T03:39:46Z Bike: i have a full on lambda list parser that could replace it, but that's another library
2016-07-31T03:40:20Z pillton: I remember you having trouble with SBCL.
2016-07-31T03:40:37Z pillton: I don't mind another library.
2016-07-31T03:40:42Z Bike: the function i'm using is, reasonably, internal
2016-07-31T03:42:09Z pillton: All these functions should be public in my opinion.
2016-07-31T03:43:09Z Bike: part of it is i'm not totally sure about parse-macro... like, why on earth does it take an environment?
2016-07-31T03:44:07Z pillton: I wondered that today actually.
2016-07-31T03:50:07Z pillton: Send an email to the pro list.
2016-07-31T03:50:35Z Bike: the what now
2016-07-31T03:51:33Z Bike: looks like the all-important http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1253 hasn't been fixed, so i guess i don't feel so bad about reimplementing something the implementation already does
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2016-07-31T04:01:19Z pillton: Ah ok. Enclose has to handle type declarations on bindings introduced by symbol-macrolet.
2016-07-31T04:01:31Z pillton: Good catch.
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2016-07-31T04:02:53Z pillton: I'm going to have a break.
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2016-07-31T04:07:20Z jack_rip_vim: does can control wifi?
2016-07-31T04:07:39Z jack_rip_vim: does lisp control wifi?
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2016-07-31T04:08:30Z Bike: do you mean... you want to control your computer's wi-fi connections from lisp?
2016-07-31T04:08:40Z |3b|: the CL standard doesn't mention wifi, but most lisp implementations can talk to C libraries or system APIs, so if any language can, lisp probably can as well
2016-07-31T04:08:54Z jack_rip_vim: yes
2016-07-31T04:09:00Z |3b|: you can also run arbitrary programs if you can control your wifi from comman line
2016-07-31T04:09:05Z |3b|: *command line
2016-07-31T04:09:10Z jack_rip_vim: ok
2016-07-31T04:09:33Z jack_rip_vim: i am thinking if lisp has that packages.
2016-07-31T04:10:37Z jack_rip_vim: guess none
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2016-07-31T04:30:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: Does no one in here use the type system for safety? The second answer to this surprises me. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/28908249/difference-between-array-vector-types-in-common-lisp
2016-07-31T04:33:04Z Bike: that's kind of pessimistic, but they're not the only person to think that
2016-07-31T04:37:50Z cromachina: you can certainly add types to your functions to get asserts at compile time, if your compiler can infer the types of the arguments to your function..
2016-07-31T04:38:27Z cromachina: it wont be hindley milner level, if that's what you are looking for...
2016-07-31T04:39:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: There's runtime checks too, isn't there?
2016-07-31T04:39:51Z cromachina: try this in sbcl, for example: (defun test () (+ "asdf"))
2016-07-31T04:40:00Z cromachina: there are
2016-07-31T04:42:28Z cromachina: they can be turned off if you set the safety low enough for your function
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2016-07-31T05:03:06Z |3b|: Petit_Dejeuner: depends on whether you care about portability or not, since using type declarations for type safety isn't portable
2016-07-31T05:03:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: well that's just perfect
2016-07-31T05:03:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: oh well
2016-07-31T05:03:59Z |3b|: compilers might just assume your declarations are true even on high safety, and even worse, skip checks it would have made because you already told it what the type is
2016-07-31T05:04:08Z |3b|: use check-type if you want to check the type :p
2016-07-31T05:05:04Z |3b|: sbcl will still skip those if it knows at compile time (including if you told it with low safety), and it will get most of the performance benefit of a type declaration, since it knows if CHECK-TYPE returns, the value is of that type
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2016-07-31T05:06:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: "check-type" okay, I can live with this
2016-07-31T05:06:58Z |3b|: storing any value of the wrong type in a variable with a declared type has undefined consequences
2016-07-31T05:07:25Z |3b|: some implementations define it to be an error under some conditions, but as far as i know, not all implementations do
2016-07-31T05:07:45Z |3b| mostly uses sbcl, so not sure which
2016-07-31T05:08:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: it's probably going to be a pain adding type-checks to slots
2016-07-31T05:08:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: :(
2016-07-31T05:09:20Z |3b|: (and in case what i said above about skipping check-type wasn't clear, it doesn't skip check-type in general at low safety, only if you already told it was that type with a declare)
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2016-07-31T05:19:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-07-31T05:25:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: morning
2016-07-31T05:25:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: Does anyone know if this function already exists? Trying to coerce directly to a string doesn't work.
2016-07-31T05:25:36Z Bike: this function?
2016-07-31T05:26:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: http://pastie.org/private/crcuknt9jqdlwxh8bys0xw
2016-07-31T05:26:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: my mistake
2016-07-31T05:26:47Z Bike: no, i do not think that function exists. i would just do (map 'string #'code-char array) though.
2016-07-31T05:27:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: thanks, that helps
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2016-07-31T07:00:41Z mr_yogurt: Are format control strings supposed to be write-only a la regexes or am I just doing it wrong?
2016-07-31T07:02:34Z beach: mr_yogurt: They are often write-only, yes.
2016-07-31T07:03:34Z mr_yogurt: I was afraid there might be a proper way to write them that I wasn't privy to.
2016-07-31T07:03:46Z beach: None that I am aware of.
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2016-07-31T08:19:51Z H4ns: it is a problem of all very succinct languages that they tend to fail expressing complex things well.
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2016-07-31T08:25:50Z beach: Interesting observation!  Certainly, APL falls into that category.
2016-07-31T08:26:55Z Bike: pshaw, ↑1 ⍵∨.∧3 4=+/,¯1 0 1∘.⊖¯1 0 1∘.⌽⊂⍵ is perfectly complex
2016-07-31T08:27:38Z ecraven: Bike: after looking at apl for a few weeks recently, this isn't as cryptic as it used to be.. even if I have no idea what it does :)
2016-07-31T08:27:45Z ecraven: at least I kind of know how to parse it
2016-07-31T08:28:09Z H4ns: ecraven: that's the same with regular expressions and format strings.  "fail" is very relative to the experience and skill of the reader.
2016-07-31T08:28:25Z H4ns: but then, that can be said about any language, not only the very succint ones.
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2016-07-31T08:40:45Z pillton: Going back three hours or so. Just note that check-type has a store-value restart. The compiler has to accommodate the input from the store-value restart which can generate strange warnings when the speed optimization is enabled.
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2016-07-31T14:50:52Z Th30n: Anyone using 32bit CCL on 64bit Windows 7? I have a strange type check bug when settings some slots on a structure. For example, (defstruct a (val 0d0 :type double-float)) (make-a) (incf (a-val *) 2) does not work.
2016-07-31T14:51:10Z Th30n: s/settings/setting
2016-07-31T14:51:27Z Th30n: 64bit version works as expected
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2016-07-31T15:06:36Z aries_liuxueyang: hello
2016-07-31T15:07:17Z beach: Hello aries_liuxueyang.
2016-07-31T15:07:48Z jack_rip_vim: hi beach
2016-07-31T15:07:50Z aries_liuxueyang: `(loop (print (eval (read))))` I evaluate this in slime in emacs, how to get out of the loop, any shortcut?
2016-07-31T15:08:26Z beach: C-c C-c usually works.
2016-07-31T15:08:37Z beach: jack_rip_vim: Hey.
2016-07-31T15:08:40Z aries_liuxueyang: I tried C-c C-b it can get out of it. but it shows an error: Interrupt from Emacs
2016-07-31T15:08:59Z beach: Then q
2016-07-31T15:09:05Z aries_liuxueyang: C-c C-c shows the same error.
2016-07-31T15:09:13Z aries_liuxueyang: Yeah, it can.
2016-07-31T15:09:31Z aries_liuxueyang: Any normal way to get out of the without error?
2016-07-31T15:09:40Z aries_liuxueyang: Or it's impossible?
2016-07-31T15:09:42Z beach: q
2016-07-31T15:10:18Z aries_liuxueyang: I know in the debug window press q to quit that.
2016-07-31T15:10:38Z aries_liuxueyang: I mean get out of the repl without error.
2016-07-31T15:10:48Z jack_rip_vim: (quit)?
2016-07-31T15:10:48Z beach: Oh.
2016-07-31T15:11:27Z aries_liuxueyang: jack_rip_vim:  yeah... ;-) thanks.
2016-07-31T15:11:34Z cromachina: you could wrap the whole thing to catch the interrupt error and then just return normally
2016-07-31T15:11:38Z jack_rip_vim: hmm
2016-07-31T15:12:14Z aries_liuxueyang: cromachina:  okay.
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2016-07-31T17:01:00Z phoe: I have a question about special vars.
2016-07-31T17:01:15Z phoe: (let ((*x* 3)) (foo))
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2016-07-31T17:01:31Z phoe: Where (defun foo () *x*) (defvar *x* 5)
2016-07-31T17:02:28Z phoe: The specialness of a variable is dropped somewhere across my code. I just need to find out where and how.
2016-07-31T17:02:53Z varjag: it's dropped when you shadow it with let
2016-07-31T17:02:59Z ggole: The first *x* is a different (lexical) variable
2016-07-31T17:03:11Z phoe: Oh no, wait wait.
2016-07-31T17:03:13Z phoe: I know where I screw up.
2016-07-31T17:03:21Z phoe: And that's not special variables.
2016-07-31T17:03:22Z ggole: The defvar needs to come first, basically.
2016-07-31T17:03:40Z ggole: Then the two *x*s will refer to the same dynamically bound variable.
2016-07-31T17:03:41Z dim: beware of threads too
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2016-07-31T17:12:19Z phoe: I actually admire Lisp
2016-07-31T17:12:24Z phoe: I think more than I code
2016-07-31T17:12:39Z phoe: where by coding I mean writing actual sexps
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2016-07-31T17:20:33Z phoe: and the fact I can actually work from both sides, as in, write my program and extend my language, and finally just make these two directions converge
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2016-07-31T17:47:15Z phoe: This is the ugliest Lisp I've ever done
2016-07-31T17:47:16Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321803
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2016-07-31T17:58:23Z cromachina: are you trying to do variable amounts of dynamic binding?
2016-07-31T17:58:33Z cromachina: i wonder if this would help http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/s_progv.htm
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2016-07-31T18:04:08Z phoe: cromachina: PROGV. I haven't used it a single time.
2016-07-31T18:04:13Z phoe: Perhaps it's about time.
2016-07-31T18:04:55Z phoe: ...ooooh
2016-07-31T18:05:05Z phoe: this is going to simplify these macros so freaking much
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2016-07-31T18:10:03Z Bike: why the eval when
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2016-07-31T18:11:39Z phoe: Bike: might go with symbol-value, correct
2016-07-31T18:12:31Z phoe: oh!
2016-07-31T18:12:39Z phoe: you didn't mean EVAL, you meant EVAL-WHEN
2016-07-31T18:13:16Z phoe: that's because later in the code I do http://paste.lisp.org/display/321803#1
2016-07-31T18:13:18Z Grue`: phoe: http://readevalprint.tumblr.com/post/145348323128/all-you-need-is-progv ;)
2016-07-31T18:13:24Z phoe: Grue`: :D
2016-07-31T18:13:40Z phoe: Bike: this ensures that inside (with-clean-config ...) there are two things
2016-07-31T18:13:58Z phoe: 1) all defconfig'd variables have newly initialized initial values
2016-07-31T18:14:20Z phoe: 2) you can call WITH-CLEAN-CONFIG inside WITH-CLEAN-CONFIG and get the same result every time
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2016-07-31T18:15:28Z Bike: #1 sounds like you want defparameter
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2016-07-31T18:16:51Z phoe: Bike: no
2016-07-31T18:16:54Z phoe: you don't want to lose the previous
2016-07-31T18:18:08Z phoe: this is essentially a jail for the defconfig'd dynamic variables
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2016-07-31T18:18:41Z Bike: what does "newly initialized initial values" mean, then...?
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2016-07-31T18:18:50Z phoe: (defconfig *x* (make-hash-table))
2016-07-31T18:19:00Z phoe: you can put elements inside that hash-table
2016-07-31T18:19:09Z Bike: i mean, nothing in defconfig actually uses the value of any of the variables, you could have it outside the eval-when with no change
2016-07-31T18:19:19Z phoe: and then (with-clean-config ...)
2016-07-31T18:19:38Z phoe: everything inside the WITH-CLEAN-CONFIG that accesses *x* does not access the old hash-table
2016-07-31T18:19:45Z phoe: it accesses a new one
2016-07-31T18:20:06Z phoe: basically you (let ((*x* (make-hash-table))) ...)
2016-07-31T18:20:27Z phoe: except that you also can call WITH-CLEAN-CONFIG recursively, getting a "clean" environment each single time
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2016-07-31T18:24:23Z Grue`: it looks way more complicated than it should be
2016-07-31T18:24:30Z Bike: okay, but i wasn't asking what this does, i'm asking why it's in an eval when.
2016-07-31T18:24:58Z Bike: i don't think you ever need to put a defmacro at top level in an eval-when all like that.
2016-07-31T18:25:08Z Grue`: even without PROGV you just need to expand the macro to a LET that binds dynamic variables to their initial values
2016-07-31T18:25:36Z Grue`: yeah, eval-when seems useless too
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2016-07-31T18:26:13Z Bike: you want an eval when around the defvars if you want the values available at compile time, which you only need if you use with-clean-config later in the file.
2016-07-31T18:26:30Z phoe: Bike: I do, for 1AM testing.
2016-07-31T18:27:02Z Grue`: (the only advantage of PROGV is that you don't need to recompile existing instances of macro every time you add a new defconfig)
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2016-07-31T18:28:28Z Bike: ok, but you should still take out the defmacros, it's confusing.
2016-07-31T18:30:05Z Bike: and i know you were rewriting to use progv but with-clean-config is pretty weird. you don't need config-vars to be ignorable, either
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2016-07-31T18:30:35Z phoe: Well. Hum.
2016-07-31T18:30:40Z phoe: I'll think on it more.
2016-07-31T18:31:31Z Grue`: it's best to not have mutable global vars in the first place...
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2016-07-31T18:35:41Z phoe: Grue`: which is why I want them special
2016-07-31T18:36:06Z phoe: my idea is, I go (with-clean-config (set-global-vars) ...)
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2016-07-31T18:38:21Z Bike: what is this "reconstruct config vars" thing? I thought config vars was a list of _unevaluated_ bindings
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2016-07-31T18:39:41Z phoe: Bike: ...
2016-07-31T18:39:44Z phoe <- silly
2016-07-31T18:39:47Z phoe: you are right
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2016-07-31T18:39:54Z phoe: there's no need to reconstruct it at all
2016-07-31T18:40:16Z phoe: welp
2016-07-31T18:40:25Z phoe: this macro needs much more love
2016-07-31T18:40:35Z Bike: actually, do you even want to rebind it
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2016-07-31T18:41:36Z phoe: ...
2016-07-31T18:41:38Z phoe: wait
2016-07-31T18:41:48Z phoe: I think I don't.
2016-07-31T18:42:16Z phoe: As long as I say that no DEFCONFIG can happen inside WITH-CLEAN-CONFIG.
2016-07-31T18:42:30Z Bike: defconfig seemed top level to me.
2016-07-31T18:42:34Z phoe: To me as well.
2016-07-31T18:42:59Z phoe: So that doesn't need to be rebound.
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2016-07-31T18:58:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: How would I add type checking to slots in CLOS objects?
2016-07-31T18:59:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: I know there's a type parameter, but I'm not sure if that's portable/safe.
2016-07-31T18:59:28Z H4ns: if you want to enforce it, you'll need to use the mop and a custom metaclass
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2016-07-31T19:14:57Z Bike: where do you want type checks? i mean, you can define methods on the writers and such pretty easy
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2016-07-31T19:37:10Z pjb: Having variables in the compilation environment often doesn't help much, because of the difficulty in having the values bound to those variables transfered to the run-time environment: essentially, you would need to recompute their value both in the compilation environment and in the run-time environment.  (cf. the constraints on defconstant for example).
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2016-07-31T19:39:03Z dfigrish: hi hi
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2016-07-31T20:05:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: H4ns: Seems like overkill to me. I probably shouldn't do that much.
2016-07-31T20:05:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: when make-instance is called and when a slot is mutated
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2016-07-31T20:06:09Z Bike: there's a lot of ways to mutate slots though
2016-07-31T20:06:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: Well, what I'm working with is read-only anyway.
2016-07-31T20:06:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: Just make-instance is probably enough.
2016-07-31T20:06:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: (read-only as in you can only change slots with something like with-slots)
2016-07-31T20:07:24Z Bike: i don't... see how that means read-only, but whatever
2016-07-31T20:08:09Z Bike: you can do something like define a couple :before methods that do the appropriate check-types
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2016-07-31T20:09:15Z Bike: mm, or maybe it would be :after so that the store-value works right.
2016-07-31T20:09:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: I think of slots as private variables in another language. Directly changing slots without an accessor is something I'd only expect methods to do.
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2016-07-31T20:10:01Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'll give it a try.
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2016-07-31T20:20:43Z ecraven: does slime support nested presentations? as in '(1 2 3) with the whole list as a presentation, but each number as a presentation as well
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2016-07-31T20:52:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: Does a lot of code just access slots directly? (I'm kind of hoping for an argument against always going through an accessor so I don't have to write accessors for every slot I want other code to reach.)
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2016-07-31T20:59:56Z Bike: by directly, you mean slot-value?
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2016-07-31T21:00:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yes.
2016-07-31T21:00:45Z JustinHitla: what is newlisp ? http://www.newlisp.org
2016-07-31T21:01:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: Not Common Lisp.
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2016-07-31T21:01:16Z Bike: it's reasonably common
2016-07-31T21:01:23Z Bike: i mean, you can still insert type checks on it
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2016-07-31T21:02:27Z Bike: it's not necessarily more direct than an accessor, too
2016-07-31T21:02:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: JustinHitla: The documentation covers it pretty well. The main difference is that variables are dynamic instead of static.
2016-07-31T21:02:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: Or at least the most noticeable differnece.
2016-07-31T21:03:47Z JustinHitla: so someonme forked lisp ?
2016-07-31T21:03:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: I was just worried about exposing implementation details.
2016-07-31T21:04:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: JustinHitla: There's a bajillion dialects of lisp.
2016-07-31T21:04:19Z Bike: what implementation details?
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2016-07-31T21:04:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: https://clojure.org/ http://shenlanguage.org/
2016-07-31T21:04:36Z Bike: oh, you mean the slot names of your classes
2016-07-31T21:04:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: The order and name of the slots in my class.
2016-07-31T21:04:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: names*
2016-07-31T21:04:53Z Bike: order doesn't matter, but yeah, slot names is a bit weird
2016-07-31T21:05:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: JustinHitla: This channel is specifically for Common Lisp.
2016-07-31T21:05:14Z Bike: if you don't export those symbols then other people using slot-value is kind of break it you buy it territory
2016-07-31T21:05:30Z Bike: (same with accessors, of course)
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2016-07-31T21:07:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: What do you mean by export symbols? Does slot-values require a symbol in the same package as the class, like the class name in make-instance?
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2016-07-31T21:08:41Z Bike: the name of a slot is a symbol, obviously
2016-07-31T21:08:48Z Bike: that symbol is probably in one of your packages
2016-07-31T21:09:16Z Bike: if you don't export it, the slot name, and thus accessing the slot through slot-value, is not an external interface you want people to use
2016-07-31T21:09:40Z Bike: i have no idea what you mean by that make-instance comparison
2016-07-31T21:09:47Z Bike: classes don't have packages
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2016-07-31T21:12:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: sometimes I have to write (make-instance 'package:class ...) instead of (make-instance 'class ...)
2016-07-31T21:12:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: That's what I'm referring to.
2016-07-31T21:13:07Z Bike: that's because the class name, which is what you're passing to make-instance, is a symbol, and symbols have packages
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2016-07-31T21:13:15Z Bike: so yes, it's like that with slot-value as well
2016-07-31T21:13:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks for explaining.
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2016-07-31T21:29:39Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: classes are not in package. This is a meaningless notion (that of classes "being in" packages).
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2016-07-31T21:30:55Z pjb: Bike: not all symbols have a home package.
2016-07-31T21:32:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: pjb: a symbol contains a package and a class can be accessed with a symbol?
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2016-07-31T21:34:08Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: symbols don't contain package. Again, meaningless notions.  What did you fill you brains with???
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2016-07-31T21:35:11Z Bike: symbols have a slot for a package. sometimes it's empty. classes usually have names, which are symbols.
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2016-07-31T21:46:54Z dfigrish: good night
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2016-07-31T22:10:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: pjb: Do symbols not have a slot indicating the package they belong to?
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2016-07-31T22:48:03Z phoe: clhs symbo
2016-07-31T22:48:03Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for symbo.
2016-07-31T22:48:06Z phoe: clhs symbol
2016-07-31T22:48:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_symbol.htm
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2016-07-31T22:48:54Z phoe: Petit_Dejeuner: they do:
2016-07-31T22:49:08Z phoe: "The object in this cell is called the home package of the symbol."
2016-07-31T22:49:53Z phoe: But again - "belong to" is ambiguous.
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2016-07-31T23:13:11Z axtract: Hey guys, I'm working through Paul Graham's intro paper on Lisp and I've found an example that doesn't seem to be working right - would you mind taking a look? pastebin.com/Urj7rBav
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2016-07-31T23:15:18Z drdo: axtract: What did you expect to happen?
2016-07-31T23:17:23Z drdo: axtract: Notice that the argument to the outermost call isn't a function, since it's quoted
2016-07-31T23:18:12Z drdo: And in common lisp, there are separate namespaces for variables and functions, so the f in (f '(b c)) is not, in fact, refering to the parameter
2016-07-31T23:18:20Z Bike: expected (a b c), presumably
2016-07-31T23:18:53Z drdo: I suspect what you want to write is ((lambda (f) (funcall f '(b c))) (lambda (x) (cons 'a x)))
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2016-07-31T23:39:19Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: symbol-package can be implemented otherwise that as a slot.  It would be quite wasteful to implement it as a slot, given that it would mean a pointer to a package for each symbol.  Since symbols that have a home package are already referenced by their home packages, we could just search the packages to find out the home package of a given symbol.
2016-07-31T23:40:02Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: there are also other ways, for example, symbols could be allocated/copied into a memory area specific to its home package, so determining the home package would just involve some bit manipulation on the symbol address.
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