2016-07-28T00:00:43Z jasom: SIGFPE is set to stop, so the divide-by-zero is specific to my use from lisp
2016-07-28T00:00:56Z jasom: I would love to know where it's happening in the foreign code
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2016-07-28T00:07:22Z jasom: okay, what other than SIGFPE can signal a divide-by-zero?  I attached with gdb and got the divide-by-zero printout
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2016-07-28T00:09:20Z jasom: hmm definitely a SIGFPE from strace
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2016-07-28T00:14:07Z jasom: well I found the function that is doing the divide-by-zero: gtk_rounded_box_apply_border_radius
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2016-07-28T00:19:40Z jasom: and I managed to get a backtrace: (break) before the offending foreign call, attach with gdb, setup signal handlers appropriately (passthrough USR1 and SEGV, halt on SIGFPE)
2016-07-28T00:20:23Z pillton: I was going to suggest a (with-gdb-attached ) macro.
2016-07-28T00:20:39Z pillton: Implementation left as an exercise.
2016-07-28T00:21:21Z jasom: hah
2016-07-28T00:21:29Z jasom: you had me excited for 16 seconds
2016-07-28T00:22:09Z pillton: I feel for you. Debugging foreign code and implementing a GUI.
2016-07-28T00:22:16Z pillton: Life doesn't seem so bad now.
2016-07-28T00:23:31Z pillton: Do you have a blog? I always forget how to use gdb for situations like that.
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2016-07-28T00:26:50Z Bike: have the macro break and spawn xterm running gdb -ex 'attach (sb-posix:getpid)'? why, it's so easy
2016-07-28T00:27:41Z jasom: I don't have a blog
2016-07-28T00:28:20Z jasom: and apparently it does want divide to not trap.  I did a set-floating-point-modes and all works
2016-07-28T00:28:37Z pillton: Bike: Well, filtering out the signals emitted by the lisp implementation helps too.
2016-07-28T00:28:41Z jasom: is there a better way?
2016-07-28T00:28:52Z pillton: On SBCL?
2016-07-28T00:29:08Z Bike: i think the floating point modes is all you got. sucks, since it's sb-int
2016-07-28T00:29:24Z jasom: there's no trivial-fp-traps I assume :P
2016-07-28T00:29:44Z pillton: sb-int:with-float-traps-masked may be better.
2016-07-28T00:29:54Z jasom: thanks
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2016-07-28T00:32:00Z pillton: From what I remember, some implementations don't copy the traps when starting new threads.
2016-07-28T00:32:39Z jasom: all the UI code should run in a single thread, so I'm not too worried
2016-07-28T00:33:05Z pillton: Which means sb-int:with-float-traps-masked is a better pattern to use in general than set-floating-point-modes.
2016-07-28T00:33:33Z pillton: Sure. I only mentioned it to make you aware of it.
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2016-07-28T00:35:22Z jasom: with-foo is almost always a better pattern than set-foo
2016-07-28T00:35:41Z pillton: Ok. Preaching to the converted.
2016-07-28T00:36:15Z pillton charts a course for the next town.
2016-07-28T00:36:30Z jasom: the only time with-foo shouldn't be used is when you have a good reason for foo to happen for an extent not matching the dynamic extent of any part of your code.
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2016-07-28T00:41:01Z rumbler3_: is there any benefit/is it even possible to declare clos slots as having certain types, w.r.t. gc?
2016-07-28T00:41:19Z rumbler3_: *gc/optimization
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2016-07-28T00:41:49Z pillton: I don't think there is an implementation which uses that information.
2016-07-28T00:42:50Z bullets: ,q
2016-07-28T00:42:53Z bullets: sorry
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2016-07-28T00:44:13Z Bike: they use the information for type checks and such
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2016-07-28T00:44:52Z Bike: i don't know about changing the memory layout of instances
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2016-07-28T01:01:28Z jasom: okay, nested backticks are hard
2016-07-28T01:02:07Z Bike: i just use functions for the second level, personally
2016-07-28T01:02:07Z pillton: backquotes?
2016-07-28T01:02:25Z jasom: Bike: yeah, that makes sense
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2016-07-28T01:19:27Z pillton: You can kind of see what is happening when you think of `(hello ,a `(there ,,b)) as (backquote (hello (comma a) (backquote (there (comma (comma b)))))).
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2016-07-28T01:56:51Z jasom: right, but (let ((y 'z)) ``(,,y) expands to (,z) rather than (z) right?
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2016-07-28T02:48:56Z pillton: Strictly speaking, it evaluates to `(,z).
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2016-07-28T03:30:37Z didi: Is the order of arguments to the function :test of `find' defined?
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2016-07-28T03:32:59Z Bike: i think the item is first, but don't rely on it
2016-07-28T03:33:12Z didi: Awww.
2016-07-28T03:33:18Z didi: Bike: Thank you.
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2016-07-28T03:48:01Z pillton: clhs 17.2.1
2016-07-28T03:48:01Z specbot: Satisfying a Two-Argument Test: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm
2016-07-28T03:48:15Z pillton: "A :test argument, if supplied to F, is a designator for a function of two arguments, O and Zi."
2016-07-28T03:49:21Z pillton: O is the object to find in the sequence and Zi is the result of applying the key function to an object in the sequence.
2016-07-28T03:50:38Z pillton: It doesn't explicitly say the order, but they are ordered in the sentence.
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2016-07-28T03:58:58Z didi: One thing I've noticed is the order of arguments of REDUCE's function change based on :from-end.
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2016-07-28T03:59:35Z didi: IIRC
2016-07-28T04:00:08Z pillton: Yeah. It is defined in the standard too.
2016-07-28T04:00:21Z didi: Cool.
2016-07-28T04:04:45Z pillton: Out of curiosity, what were you using (reduce ... :from-end t) for?
2016-07-28T04:05:05Z didi: pillton: I can't remember now. It's been a while.
2016-07-28T04:05:41Z didi: I was surprised, that is why I remember. :-)
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2016-07-28T04:16:13Z akkad: is there a way to do multiple assignment on a split-sequence call/
2016-07-28T04:16:14Z akkad: ?
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2016-07-28T04:18:44Z Bike: what do you mean multiple assignment?
2016-07-28T04:20:34Z cromachina: destructuring-bind?
2016-07-28T04:24:49Z cromachina: http://paste.lisp.org/display/321540
2016-07-28T04:26:06Z cromachina: and throw a &rest in to match anything else
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2016-07-28T04:43:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-07-28T05:30:41Z akkad: xb
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2016-07-28T06:10:03Z akkad: (multiple-value-bind (a b c) (split-sequence:split-sequence #\Space "o my god") (format t "a:~A b:~A c:~A~%" a b c)) ;; how does one get the assignment to work?
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2016-07-28T06:10:46Z akkad: oic. it does not actually assign from list
2016-07-28T06:11:04Z Zhivago: Perhaps you want a destructuring-bind ?
2016-07-28T06:11:15Z akkad: thanks.
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2016-07-28T06:14:29Z otwieracz: Is there anybody really using silmv?
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2016-07-28T06:17:49Z otwieracz: && how do you deal with lack of mod-. (go to definition)
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2016-07-28T06:23:39Z flip214: otwieracz: I use ctags (and then Ctrl-]), and I do use slime via ",df" (definition find)
2016-07-28T06:23:59Z otwieracz: oh
2016-07-28T06:24:01Z otwieracz: there's ,df?!
2016-07-28T06:24:14Z flip214: perhaps you've got an old version
2016-07-28T06:24:55Z otwieracz: kovisoft's is the most recent one?
2016-07-28T06:24:56Z flip214: I'm using https://bitbucket.org/kovisoft/slimv via mercurial
2016-07-28T06:25:18Z flip214: but this feature is at least one year old, so it should even be in vim.org released versions
2016-07-28T06:25:32Z flip214: ",df" is only available if you have the "long" keybindings...
2016-07-28T06:25:53Z flip214: else it's ",g" (for "goto", I guess)
2016-07-28T06:26:04Z flip214: call s:MenuMap( 'Slim&v.De&bugging.&Find-Definition\.\.\.',     g:slimv_leader.'g',  g:slimv_leader.'df',  ':call SlimvFindDefinitions()<CR>' )
2016-07-28T06:26:10Z otwieracz: ,d is eval-defun
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2016-07-28T06:26:31Z flip214: otwieracz: you're using the short keybindings. Use ,g then
2016-07-28T06:26:49Z otwieracz: Hmm.
2016-07-28T06:26:57Z otwieracz: It asks for package and then nothing happens.
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2016-07-28T06:28:22Z flip214: slimv also has a menu (if you're running gvim; for console see ":help console-menus" ;)
2016-07-28T06:28:58Z otwieracz: And in menu I don't see anything about finding definition in menu
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2016-07-28T06:29:32Z otwieracz: otwieracz@odyssey ~/.vim/bundle/slimv $ git log | head
2016-07-28T06:29:32Z otwieracz: commit 1de8da9681c91b71871912b42a7c6053617cadad
2016-07-28T06:29:32Z otwieracz: Author: kovisoft@gmail.com <kovisoft@gmail.com>
2016-07-28T06:29:32Z otwieracz: Date:   Sat Jun 11 11:48:04 2016 +0200
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2016-07-28T06:34:05Z flip214: what repository is that, upstream?
2016-07-28T06:34:22Z flip214: the main one is a mercurial on https://bitbucket.org/kovisoft/slimv
2016-07-28T06:34:57Z flip214: date:        Sat Jun 11 11:48:04 2016 +0200
2016-07-28T06:34:59Z flip214: date:        Sat Jun 11 11:48:04 2016 +0200
2016-07-28T06:35:05Z flip214: seems to be the same data, though
2016-07-28T06:35:32Z otwieracz: https://github.com/kovisoft/slimv.git
2016-07-28T06:35:50Z flip214: menu "slimv", "debugging", "find-definition"
2016-07-28T06:36:16Z otwieracz: nope
2016-07-28T06:36:20Z flip214: but doesn't ",g" simply work for you?
2016-07-28T06:36:34Z flip214: otwieracz: do you have *any* menu?
2016-07-28T06:36:49Z otwieracz: yes, sure.
2016-07-28T06:36:52Z otwieracz: let me show you
2016-07-28T06:37:36Z flip214: otwieracz: ah, I just saw that ",g" is used twice... a second time for set-package!
2016-07-28T06:37:48Z flip214: ftplugin/slimv.vim around line 3700 you can change that.
2016-07-28T06:38:06Z otwieracz: oh
2016-07-28T06:38:22Z otwieracz: however, I do not have this in menu
2016-07-28T06:41:26Z otwieracz: https://i.imgur.com/9seumht.png
2016-07-28T06:41:48Z otwieracz: (SlimvFind autocomplete is not helpful, also)
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2016-07-28T06:42:35Z otwieracz: And my ftplugin/slimv.vim is 3580 lines long…
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2016-07-28T06:43:09Z otwieracz: Just like this in bitbucket.
2016-07-28T06:43:28Z akkad: if you have an alist with keys being (:foo-bar . 12) would you (assoc ':foo-bar myalist)?
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2016-07-28T06:44:13Z otwieracz: https://bitbucket.org/kovisoft/slimv/src/8a21fb67e6cdf1ff8a8640232ce439df328d2dbd/ftplugin/slimv.vim?at=default - there's no Find-Definition!
2016-07-28T06:44:30Z otwieracz: flip214: where did you get your slimv from! Speak! ;-)
2016-07-28T06:47:11Z otwieracz: flip214: otwieracz@odyssey ~/.vim/bundle/slimv $ grep -iRn SlimvFindDefinition .
2016-07-28T06:47:12Z otwieracz: otwieracz@odyssey ~/.vim/bundle/slimv $
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2016-07-28T06:56:25Z flip214: yeah, I've got a few local modifications....
2016-07-28T06:56:37Z otwieracz: So that's huge local modifications… :)
2016-07-28T06:57:05Z otwieracz: Maybe you consider creating pull request, or something?
2016-07-28T06:57:09Z otwieracz: Or diff at least? :)
2016-07-28T06:57:26Z flip214:  slimv.vim |  187 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++----
2016-07-28T06:57:26Z flip214:  swank.py  |   83 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++-
2016-07-28T06:57:26Z flip214:  2 files changed, 258 insertions(+), 12 deletions(-)
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2016-07-28T06:57:56Z flip214: search for MenuMap in your slimv.vim, please.
2016-07-28T06:58:15Z flip214: in fact, that's ~40 lines above the end of the file
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2016-07-28T06:59:17Z otwieracz: I see menu map. But like I told you, there's noting about find-definition
2016-07-28T06:59:32Z flip214: otwieracz: please send me your email address (private chat), I'll send you the patches....
2016-07-28T06:59:41Z flip214: the whole git dance is too much ATM
2016-07-28T06:59:46Z otwieracz: :)
2016-07-28T07:00:05Z otwieracz: But maybe I can help you quickly with git.
2016-07-28T07:00:24Z otwieracz: I think this will be <5 minutes.
2016-07-28T07:01:46Z flip214: I was sure that I sent the find-def changes to Tamas already.
2016-07-28T07:03:37Z flip214: I'd suggest to use the long-keybindings
2016-07-28T07:06:06Z otwieracz: How to use them?
2016-07-28T07:06:12Z otwieracz: slimv is lacking documentation :)
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2016-07-28T07:21:30Z flip214: it is?
2016-07-28T07:21:44Z flip214: $ wc -l doc/*
2016-07-28T07:21:45Z flip214:    458 doc/paredit.txt
2016-07-28T07:21:45Z flip214:   2150 doc/slimv.txt
2016-07-28T07:23:21Z otwieracz: OK, online.
2016-07-28T07:23:33Z otwieracz: I am not really into vim documentation system. But still learning.
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2016-07-28T08:05:01Z knobo1: what kind of practical problems could cl-unification solve.
2016-07-28T08:05:18Z knobo1: And are there any web page I could read to learn about it.
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2016-07-28T08:44:18Z hhdave: pjb: do you know if there was ever a CLIM 2 implementation for MCL? (I know you aren’t here at the moment, but hoped you might notice). Alternatively, is the CLIM 1 code for MCL available for download anywhere?
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2016-07-28T09:08:47Z knobo: shouldn't cl-who print (:div :foo t) as <div foo> </div> when html-mode is :html5?
2016-07-28T09:09:07Z knobo: Would be much easier to do angular stuff that way.
2016-07-28T09:10:54Z knobo: It only does that for sgml mode now.
2016-07-28T09:14:24Z loke is writing docker config files. Ouch.
2016-07-28T09:14:36Z loke: It's somewhat interesting technology though
2016-07-28T09:15:21Z knobo: https://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/syntax.html#syntax-attr-empty
2016-07-28T09:17:31Z knobo: Someone already found thiss out... https://github.com/edicl/cl-who/pull/18
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2016-07-28T13:54:36Z aesirCabal: Is there a way to filter a sequence, like mapcan but for sequnces?? i've tried map 'string but sometimes i want to emit nothing and get nil is not a character. Any suggestions?
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2016-07-28T13:56:35Z ggole: remove-if?
2016-07-28T13:56:39Z eudoxia: remove-if
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2016-07-28T13:57:57Z aesirCabal: Thanks
2016-07-28T13:59:34Z Anselmp is now known as Anselmo
2016-07-28T13:59:42Z fe[nl]ix: ... remove-if
2016-07-28T13:59:49Z fe[nl]ix: a cappella
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2016-07-28T14:03:22Z jackdaniel: (abbrv #'remove-if-not #'filter)
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2016-07-28T14:31:52Z flip214: otwieracz: pushed slimv on github
2016-07-28T14:31:53Z hjudt: how does lisp garbage collection work? if i create an object with make-instance on the top-level without assigning the object to any variable, how long will it exist? will it be garbage collected?
2016-07-28T14:32:18Z otwieracz: flip214: cool!
2016-07-28T14:32:22Z flip214: or not
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2016-07-28T14:32:48Z jackdaniel: hjudt: if it's not referenced anywhere it will be garbage collected
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2016-07-28T14:34:28Z varjag: if it's in the repl it's bound to history until it vanishes
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2016-07-28T14:34:53Z varjag: clhs ***
2016-07-28T14:34:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v__stst_.htm
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2016-07-28T14:35:52Z hjudt: very interesting, thanks!
2016-07-28T14:35:53Z jackdaniel: also someone may for some reason I can't foresee put the object somewhere from a specialized shared-initialize method
2016-07-28T14:36:13Z warweasle: Hello.
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2016-07-28T14:36:38Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Is my patch for ecl ok? I'm not sure I did it right.
2016-07-28T14:36:39Z jackdaniel: warweasle: thanks for the patch, I'll run tests tomorrow to check if it doesn't cause random blurps on something
2016-07-28T14:36:55Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Or course it will. I wrote it!
2016-07-28T14:36:55Z jackdaniel: it seems OK (I saw it, but haven't run tests yet)
2016-07-28T14:37:03Z jackdaniel: heheh
2016-07-28T14:37:17Z jackdaniel: once again thanks for time you devoted to this
2016-07-28T14:37:59Z jackdaniel: I think that --with-cxx builds need some more love from my side
2016-07-28T14:38:28Z jackdaniel: (I rarely work on these whatsoever, but there is a very promising proposal regarding the contrib library for c++ unique features in ecl)
2016-07-28T14:39:07Z jackdaniel: namely this: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/195
2016-07-28T14:39:28Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I think it will be very useful in bringing C++ libraries into lisp.
2016-07-28T14:39:58Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Although, I wish I knew how to link the ecl binary with a static library.
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2016-07-28T14:40:17Z jackdaniel: warweasle: you don't link the executable, you link the library
2016-07-28T14:40:23Z jackdaniel: you may build ecl as a static or shared library
2016-07-28T14:40:33Z jackdaniel: /usr/bin/ecl is just a shared library client
2016-07-28T14:40:41Z jackdaniel: /usr/lib/libecl.so
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2016-07-28T14:41:17Z warweasle: jackdaniel: That's right. I should be about to rebuild the client with shared libraries, correct?
2016-07-28T14:41:41Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if I understand
2016-07-28T14:42:01Z jackdaniel: you may link libecl with your application
2016-07-28T14:42:01Z warweasle: jackdaniel: In my own project, I want to use the client code and use it as a base.
2016-07-28T14:42:17Z jackdaniel: also you may build executable with ecl linked with any library from the system
2016-07-28T14:42:20Z warweasle: jackdaniel: The ecl binary with main() and all that.
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2016-07-28T14:44:32Z jackdaniel: I'm still not sure what you want to do. You want to embed ECL in C++ application or rather use C++ library in Common Lisp?
2016-07-28T14:44:53Z jackdaniel: in ECL°
2016-07-28T14:45:59Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I want to use init.d's C output to build my own binary. Which I can link what whatever libraries I want.
2016-07-28T14:46:39Z warweasle: jackdaniel: So it's as common to the ecl binary as possible.
2016-07-28T14:47:17Z warweasle: jackdaniel: But I might not understand ecl enough to make that decision. Which is why I'm asking.
2016-07-28T14:47:21Z jackdaniel: OK, so you want to build /usr/bin/warweasles-ecl which will be linked with libecl and your libraries
2016-07-28T14:47:28Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Yes.
2016-07-28T14:47:29Z warweasle: :)
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2016-07-28T14:48:29Z jackdaniel: OK, it's fairly easy, if you could write a feature request on gitlab to document that I'll be happy to make a small writeup next week – will that be OK with you?
2016-07-28T14:50:00Z jackdaniel: in essence you need to provide correct c::*user-ld-flags* and call asdf:make-build with correct options
2016-07-28T14:50:03Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Oh, that would be great. Another question, if you don't mind, are C++ objects treated as pointers in ecl's ffi?
2016-07-28T14:50:22Z jackdaniel: I don't know, I would have to check that
2016-07-28T14:50:52Z jackdaniel: as I said, I didn't work much with ECL compiled with a C++ compiler (nor with it's ffi)
2016-07-28T14:50:55Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I can look in the code. But I thought you might know offhand.
2016-07-28T14:51:16Z jackdaniel: I suspect, that in case of C++ dynamic FFI won't work, only the static FFI
2016-07-28T14:51:28Z warweasle: ?
2016-07-28T14:51:43Z jackdaniel: ECL has two FFI solutions: one is dynamic, with libffi
2016-07-28T14:51:55Z jackdaniel: but libffi is all about C ABI afaik
2016-07-28T14:52:23Z jackdaniel: the second one is a static FFI – compiler inlines calls to the C++ functions and g++ resolves the calls
2016-07-28T14:52:30Z jackdaniel: (or other c++ compiler)
2016-07-28T14:52:44Z jackdaniel: there is also a third FFI option with dlopen, but that's not relevant here
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2016-07-28T14:55:04Z warweasle: What ABI expand to?
2016-07-28T14:55:19Z jackdaniel: application binary interface
2016-07-28T14:55:51Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Oh, that's the difference between compiling ffi functions and interpreting them.
2016-07-28T14:55:56Z jackdaniel: yes
2016-07-28T14:56:27Z jackdaniel: sffi is faster, but dffi may be used in bytecode (without compilation with ecl's lisp->c/c++ compiler)
2016-07-28T14:56:44Z jackdaniel: and dffi is rather less error-prone (with respect to (void*) casts etc
2016-07-28T14:56:49Z jackdaniel: )
2016-07-28T14:56:55Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Ok, that's not an issue for me. I want to build it into the executable.
2016-07-28T14:57:08Z jackdaniel: yes, just saying
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2016-07-28T15:16:11Z impaktor: Out of curiosity, is there anything lacking or remaining for the C++ merge request for ECL?
2016-07-28T15:16:25Z impaktor: jackdaniel: ^
2016-07-28T15:17:17Z jackdaniel: impaktor: C++ merge request?
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2016-07-28T15:17:45Z impaktor: Ah, that wasn't it? Sorry, not familiar with gitlab.
2016-07-28T15:17:49Z jackdaniel: if you mean the mentioned feature request, it's just a proposal for now (without any code written)
2016-07-28T15:17:59Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/220
2016-07-28T15:18:35Z impaktor: I was thinking of https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/195
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2016-07-28T15:19:06Z jackdaniel: Juraj as far as I understand creates something like that for a closed source project and wanted to develop something similar to donate to the project
2016-07-28T15:19:13Z jackdaniel: yes, I pasted a wrong URL, I meant that one
2016-07-28T15:19:33Z jackdaniel: he apparently didn't have time to write it, or still waits for some free time to do it
2016-07-28T15:19:55Z impaktor: OK. Also, I thought the "bump" was done by the original author, now I see it wasn't. So, OK.
2016-07-28T15:20:03Z jackdaniel: heh
2016-07-28T15:20:22Z jackdaniel: s/Juraj/Denis/
2016-07-28T15:20:52Z impaktor: By the way, stupid question, as I know nothing about ECL, but if one embeds ECL in a C/C++ project, does changes lisp files require a recompilation?
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2016-07-28T15:21:33Z jackdaniel: if you have ECL in C/C++ project you still have access to the CL compiler, so you don't have to recompile the whole project
2016-07-28T15:21:46Z impaktor: Yeah, that's what I hoped/thought.
2016-07-28T15:21:58Z impaktor: Looks very interesting. I hope to develop the skill to get to use it some day.
2016-07-28T15:22:08Z jackdaniel: but, you may do even cooler things – you may actually recompile C function in the running application
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2016-07-28T15:22:33Z impaktor: How would that work?
2016-07-28T15:22:44Z jackdaniel: the only drawback of such approach is that such C function has to be passed as a pointer to your app
2016-07-28T15:22:49Z jackdaniel: well, dlopen and friends
2016-07-28T15:22:56Z impaktor: OK.
2016-07-28T15:23:02Z jackdaniel: you may load any *.o file to your application
2016-07-28T15:23:22Z impaktor: The devs on my project took the Lua route, before they left.
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2016-07-28T15:23:51Z jackdaniel: ECL compiler uses C compiler, so you may essentially compile C inlined code with ECL compiler and load it
2016-07-28T15:23:53Z impaktor: So, the game uses lua scripts. I'd rather use lisp Guile/ECL.
2016-07-28T15:24:27Z jackdaniel: I've heard good things about lua
2016-07-28T15:24:34Z impaktor: By the way, am I then right in assuming ECL is the CL counterpart of Guile?
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2016-07-28T15:25:02Z jackdaniel: in the sense of being an extension language for C/C++? yes, I think you may say that
2016-07-28T15:25:17Z impaktor: jackdaniel: yeah, I don't hate lua or anything (Lua mode in emacs is not so good though), but I'd rather play with lisp, because that's what I'd like to learn.
2016-07-28T15:25:30Z impaktor: Yes. Ok. Thanks.
2016-07-28T15:25:41Z jackdaniel: other good things are that ECL is a shared library and may for instance work as an Android app
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2016-07-28T15:25:52Z jackdaniel: thanks to JNI
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2016-07-28T15:26:44Z jackdaniel: and is reasonably good implementation (not as fast as SBCL or CCL though) by its own means (you doesn't have to embed it)
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2016-07-28T15:30:03Z impaktor: I'm impressed by how long history it has, without being abandoned, or stagnated.
2016-07-28T15:30:20Z impaktor: ...when looking at commit history graph.
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2016-07-28T15:31:34Z jackdaniel: it origins from 1984's Kyoto Common Lisp
2016-07-28T15:31:40Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/pr01s03.html
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2016-07-28T15:39:08Z impaktor: Interesting.
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2016-07-28T15:47:09Z warweasle wants test out using ECL to incrementally build up C/C++ programs. Then convert them to pure C/C++ when done.
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2016-07-28T15:49:48Z pierpa: Anyone tried Eclipse CL?  How good it is?
2016-07-28T15:49:48Z jackdaniel: given enough time I'll write a full tutorial on that eventually, but not anytime soon
2016-07-28T15:50:15Z jackdaniel: pierpa: Eclipse CL afaik is obsolete/abandonware, but I may be wrong of course
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2016-07-28T15:50:54Z pierpa: the source is on github
2016-07-28T15:51:54Z jackdaniel: that doesn't stay in contradiction with what I've said :)
2016-07-28T15:52:16Z pierpa: I didn't mean to negate what you've said! :)
2016-07-28T15:52:28Z jackdaniel: heh
2016-07-28T15:52:51Z jackdaniel: there is also Corman CL recently published (thanks to Xach's efforts)
2016-07-28T15:53:03Z Xach: there's another one, too -- was it chestnut lisp?
2016-07-28T15:53:11Z pierpa: yes, I know a bit about Corman CL
2016-07-28T15:53:11Z Xach: oh, right. sorry. eclipse.
2016-07-28T15:53:13Z Xach is behind
2016-07-28T15:53:33Z pierpa: has Chestnut been open sourced?
2016-07-28T15:55:01Z Xach: I think there is or was an effort to that effect
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2016-07-28T15:55:16Z pierpa: from 1996: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/eclipse$20common$20lisp/comp.lang.lisp/HPTArQ8GFpY/lDoNX2z0QTEJ
2016-07-28T15:56:26Z Xach: I will try to get an update for 2016.
2016-07-28T15:56:51Z impaktor: Is ECL not fully ANSI compliant?
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2016-07-28T15:57:25Z impaktor: Reading on the wiki, it indicates there's work to be done towards that.
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2016-07-28T15:59:03Z jackdaniel: impaktor: it is ANSI compliant +/- a few corner-cases
2016-07-28T15:59:10Z Xach: I don't think any implementation is fully ansi compliant. It's all a matter of degrees. ECL was until recently a bit more behind than some.
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2016-07-28T16:00:12Z Xach: (the spec has more precise language about what compliance means)
2016-07-28T16:00:43Z jackdaniel: impaktor: in other words it's hard to find things which aren't ANSI compliant, and if you find one please fill the bug and improve the ansi-tests project
2016-07-28T16:01:13Z jasom: Also there are bugs in the spec
2016-07-28T16:01:36Z jackdaniel: jasom: interesting, do you have something specific in mind?
2016-07-28T16:02:13Z Xach: prog2 is the easiest for me to remember
2016-07-28T16:02:18Z Xach: but the proposed, etc page on cliki is good too
2016-07-28T16:02:22Z jasom: jackdaniel: cliki has a page with a few, plus I think I may have found another one
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2016-07-28T16:05:17Z jasom: The one I think I found is "Also, if a type Tx is a subtype of another type Ty, then the upgraded array element type of Tx must be a subtype of the upgraded array element type of Ty. Two disjoint types can be upgraded to the same type." where it should be "recognizable subtype" otherwise it's provably not possible to implement correctly
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2016-07-28T16:09:02Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2016-07-28T16:40:04Z akkad: ((:foo . 1) (:bar . 2)) is an alist?
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2016-07-28T16:41:17Z jdz: sure is
2016-07-28T16:42:31Z jasom: it's probably an alist
2016-07-28T16:42:42Z jdz: ((:foo) (:bar)) is also an alist
2016-07-28T16:43:03Z jasom: any list in which every element is a cons could be an alist
2016-07-28T16:43:13Z jasom: nil is also an alist
2016-07-28T16:43:30Z jackdaniel: nil isn't a cons
2016-07-28T16:43:31Z jdz: well, for most purposes a list with empty lists is also an alist
2016-07-28T16:43:43Z jackdaniel: ah, nvm
2016-07-28T16:43:44Z jackdaniel: read it wrong
2016-07-28T16:43:44Z jasom: jackdaniel: nil is a list in which all zero elements are a cons
2016-07-28T16:43:47Z jackdaniel: yes
2016-07-28T16:45:20Z akkad: having a hell of a time trying to find/match/assoc :foo from that example
2016-07-28T16:46:01Z jasom: (assoc :foo '((:foo . 1) (:bar . 2))) should return '(:foo . 1), right?
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2016-07-28T16:52:35Z Baggers: evening folks, is there a reason to favor something like trivial-dump-core over asdf/bundle?
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2016-07-28T16:54:45Z jasom: Baggers: those do very different things; perhaps you are thinking of asdf:image-op ?
2016-07-28T16:55:25Z jasom: Baggers: main issue with ASDF's stuff right now is that it's not possible for the user to specify where the image should go.  There's talk on the mailing list about how to fix that.
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2016-07-28T16:57:57Z Baggers: jasom: interesting, sorry your right, I was grepping for image-op and saw #'dump-image & the rest. Was suprised
2016-07-28T16:58:40Z jasom: uiop has something similar to trivial-dump-core as well
2016-07-28T16:58:41Z Baggers: sorry I mean suprised trivial-dump-core existed when this looked rather thorough
2016-07-28T16:58:42Z jasom: that's what I use
2016-07-28T16:58:47Z Baggers: cool
2016-07-28T16:58:55Z jasom: I bet trivial-dump-core predates ASDF's stuff, but I could be wrong
2016-07-28T16:58:56Z Baggers: ah yeah, see that now
2016-07-28T16:59:36Z Baggers: cool, I am very ignorant about asdf, it's probably the thing in lisp I use most and understand least
2016-07-28T16:59:43Z Baggers: I need to get reading it seems :)
2016-07-28T16:59:53Z jasom: fare did a decent amount of writing about it.
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2016-07-28T17:01:36Z jasom: I need to talk with him more; he said something to the effect of xcvb being an evolutionary dead-end in passing and I'm now wondering what he meant by that.  There were a lot of really useful things in xcvb, and only some of them made it to asdf.  (Strict enforcement of dependencies, which was something I liked about xcvb can't be brought into asdf without breaking pretty much every system in the wild)
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2016-07-28T17:04:08Z dlowe: He means that he thought xcvb was better and not enough people agreed with him enough to switch
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2016-07-28T17:04:47Z akkad: jasom: yeap.
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2016-07-28T17:07:24Z Baggers: im going to start reading "ASDF 3, or Why Lisp is Now an Acceptable Scripting Language". Do you recommend any other particular texts on asdf?
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2016-07-28T17:16:17Z jasom: http://fare.livejournal.com/tag/asdf
2016-07-28T17:18:34Z Baggers: well that's just sensible :)
2016-07-28T17:18:36Z Baggers: thanks
2016-07-28T17:20:20Z rszeno: Baggers your "why lisp ..." is from here: http://fare.tunes.org/files/asdf3/asdf3-2014.html ?
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2016-07-28T17:21:52Z Baggers: yup
2016-07-28T17:22:03Z rszeno ok, :)
2016-07-28T17:23:27Z jackdaniel: 25.806976 – root of all evil
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2016-07-28T17:28:50Z jasom: actually I think there's some stuff about asdf in here too: http://common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/doc/ilc09-xcvb-paper.pdf
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2016-07-28T17:32:22Z Baggers: nice, tonight's going to be fun
2016-07-28T17:33:28Z akkad: (defvar mylist '((:key-string . bar))) (defvar foo "key-string")  (assoc foo mylist) ;; nothing. I need to dereference foo and convert to symbol. Is there a single command for this? or is it a combination of intern/format?
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2016-07-28T17:34:11Z Xach: akkad: there are many options. intern plus string-upcase would be typical.
2016-07-28T17:34:43Z akkad: Xach: thanks
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2016-07-28T17:39:54Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/47ee52833f7a6bbfcd75d320b639a314 not sure I'm not doing this right.
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2016-07-28T17:41:30Z Xach: akkad: you must intern in the package named KEYWORD.
2016-07-28T17:42:10Z akkad: k. will rtfm that
2016-07-28T17:42:37Z akkad: ahh
2016-07-28T17:43:04Z akkad: perfect
2016-07-28T17:44:44Z jasom: akkad: alexandria has a make-keyword function as a shortcut for that
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2016-07-28T17:45:00Z jasom: akkad: you still need to do the formatting though
2016-07-28T17:45:15Z jasom: akkad: I have a format-keyword in one of my projects for doing this
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2016-07-28T17:50:05Z akkad: oic. will check it out. thanks
2016-07-28T17:51:10Z jasom: Baggers: I particularly like the quote from Fare from a while ago: "If someone cares about the future of ASDF, I recommend they should address the upgradability bug, which will itself unlock a big hurdle on the way of further evolution of ASDF...Personally, I'd rather work on XCVB, and invite people interested in build systems to work on it instead of ASDF."
2016-07-28T17:52:23Z jasom: I think he wrote that days before taking over maintenance of asdf
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2016-07-28T17:54:46Z Xach: and turned it into a kind of xcvb
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2016-07-28T17:55:32Z jasom: Xach: well that article specifically listed issues he had with asdf that were not intrinsic to its implementation.  Everything but the deterministic parallel builds basically.
2016-07-28T17:56:11Z Baggers: jasom: Im just reading through uiop and feeling like a muppet for the amount of effort I replicated in various projects
2016-07-28T17:56:49Z jasom: Baggers: indeed; though uiop is intentionally not complete in terms of providing OS integration.  I think the rule is that anything not used by asdf can't go in there.
2016-07-28T17:57:08Z jackdaniel: I think UIOP goes way beyond ASDF requirements
2016-07-28T17:57:21Z jasom: however it is really nice that all the fiddly OS stuff that asdf had to solve got split out into it's own generally useful thing.
2016-07-28T17:57:23Z jackdaniel: but I wrote about that some time ago
2016-07-28T17:59:28Z dlowe: free idea: history of lisp on cliki. One page per year, cross-linked.
2016-07-28T17:59:55Z dlowe: Ideal for a wiki because there's so many points of view and possible contributors
2016-07-28T18:01:48Z jackdaniel: sounds like a worthwhile effort
2016-07-28T18:01:59Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't be able to contribute though, I don't know about lisp history much sadly
2016-07-28T18:02:09Z pierpa: I will do 1678
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2016-07-28T18:17:25Z jasom: someone did a phenomenal writeup about the standardization process (KMP?)
2016-07-28T18:18:27Z Baggers: jasom: yeah that was great, there was a video interview with mccarthy that adds the color of his experiences to the story which was great
2016-07-28T18:18:55Z jasom: also someone did a talk about why a new ISO standard doesn't make sense
2016-07-28T18:19:25Z jasom: Seibel
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2016-07-28T18:19:58Z Xach: i liked the seibel talk very much
2016-07-28T18:20:23Z Baggers: cool, totally agree with the premise but would like to hear his reasons <gets googling>
2016-07-28T18:20:39Z jasom: Baggers: https://soundcloud.com/zach-beane/peter-seibel-common-lisp
2016-07-28T18:21:00Z Baggers: and you're faster than google, thanks
2016-07-28T18:22:37Z jasom: IIRC the TL;DL is  basically "A standard is expensive and without vendor-buy-in is just an empty piece of paper"
2016-07-28T18:23:21Z jasom: or more broadly: "A standard is a means to an end, and a new standard wouldn't achieve the ends that those who are asking for one desire"
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2016-07-28T18:25:41Z Xach: with good historical context
2016-07-28T18:25:41Z jasom: today I just discovered https://github.com/fare/reader-interception
2016-07-28T18:26:01Z Xach: the first standard's goal was "keep the federal money hose flowing"
2016-07-28T18:26:45Z warweasle: Xach: I can has free money?
2016-07-28T18:26:49Z phoe: I have an idea.
2016-07-28T18:27:00Z Xach: warweasle: first, build a time machine
2016-07-28T18:27:27Z jackdaniel: so, basically we need continuations? :)
2016-07-28T18:27:32Z phoe: Is it feasible to write a sort of client-side scripting language that the client will send to the server - and then compiled in runtime into usual functions/closures?
2016-07-28T18:27:57Z Bike: sent to the server, where it is executed?
2016-07-28T18:28:07Z phoe: Yes yes.
2016-07-28T18:28:11Z jackdaniel: sounds insecure
2016-07-28T18:28:19Z jasom: phoe: yes it's feasible, but it's very hard to make that secure in the presence of untrusted clients
2016-07-28T18:28:43Z phoe: jackdaniel: the sort of scripting language in the sort of "if player A steps on tile B then emit string C and transport player A to tile D".
2016-07-28T18:28:53Z jasom: or rather there is a tradeoff between power of the scripting language and the ease of making it secure
2016-07-28T18:29:12Z warweasle thinks we need a lisp-like javascript which is secure and does nothing without plugging in new functionality.
2016-07-28T18:29:13Z phoe: Nothing that allows constructing functions or the like; more like what Javascript was in the early days.
2016-07-28T18:29:19Z phoe: warweasle: highfive!
2016-07-28T18:29:35Z Bike: but that's not much like javascript, if it's server executed
2016-07-28T18:29:45Z warweasle: Bike: Like node.js?
2016-07-28T18:29:46Z jackdaniel: warweasle: we have parenscript for servers, jscl for the client side and ECL for chromium (builds for NaCL and pNaCL)
2016-07-28T18:30:06Z jasom: warweasle: code running on node.js is not secure
2016-07-28T18:30:07Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Salt?
2016-07-28T18:30:12Z jackdaniel: Salt?
2016-07-28T18:30:17Z warweasle: NaCL
2016-07-28T18:30:24Z jasom: NaCL not NaCl
2016-07-28T18:30:24Z phoe: Bike: well, yes. But basically - I want the client to be able to write the logic for their "game worlds" that will be sent to the server and executed there.
2016-07-28T18:30:30Z jackdaniel: http://www.chromium.org/nativeclient
2016-07-28T18:30:33Z jackdaniel: nacl ↑
2016-07-28T18:30:35Z phoe: But I want to compile these scripts into proper Lisp code.
2016-07-28T18:30:38Z warweasle: phoe: Best to make a DSL
2016-07-28T18:30:47Z phoe: warweasle: yes, that's what I've been thinking of
2016-07-28T18:30:54Z Bike: i used an "MMORPG maker" thing like that once.
2016-07-28T18:30:54Z warweasle: phoe: Although there is a "secure read" library
2016-07-28T18:30:56Z phoe: I want to make it lispy because of the ease of using sexprs
2016-07-28T18:30:58Z phoe: warweasle: !!!!!!!!
2016-07-28T18:31:00Z phoe: Where!?!
2016-07-28T18:31:05Z phoe: I spent so much time writing my own one!
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2016-07-28T18:31:25Z warweasle: https://github.com/mabragor/cl-secure-read
2016-07-28T18:31:26Z jasom: https://github.com/mabragor/cl-secure-read/ <-- don't know if it works or not
2016-07-28T18:31:34Z warweasle: I WIN!
2016-07-28T18:31:52Z warweasle has no idea how to use it...
2016-07-28T18:32:09Z phoe: warweasle: ogod
2016-07-28T18:32:12Z phoe: that's the thing
2016-07-28T18:32:12Z phoe: <3
2016-07-28T18:32:20Z jasom: any interning reader, or reader that can create bignums or maps is inherently open to DoS
2016-07-28T18:32:38Z warweasle: phoe: But the easy way is to make a chroot jail and communicate through a pipe.
2016-07-28T18:33:03Z phoe: warweasle: that's the tough way.
2016-07-28T18:33:08Z warweasle: ?
2016-07-28T18:33:12Z jasom: chroot jails aren't sufficient for certain kinds of security
2016-07-28T18:33:21Z jackdaniel: jasom: you can preprocess the input (ie limit it to 1k characters, or 100k, depending on needs)
2016-07-28T18:33:25Z phoe: I'd rather create a Lisp function that is safe against three areas:
2016-07-28T18:33:29Z phoe: 1) internbombing
2016-07-28T18:33:31Z phoe: 2) #.
2016-07-28T18:33:39Z phoe: 3) excessive input size
2016-07-28T18:33:45Z phoe: s/function/reader/
2016-07-28T18:33:50Z warweasle fires all the interns.
2016-07-28T18:34:07Z phoe: And I think I created a reader that is secure against the first two.
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2016-07-28T18:42:54Z akkad: what is the most performant way to append to a large list?
2016-07-28T18:44:20Z jackdaniel: akkad: bookkeeping the last cons and (setf (cdr my-last-cons) my-list)
2016-07-28T18:44:21Z pierpa: APPEND
2016-07-28T18:44:23Z jackdaniel: but it's destructive
2016-07-28T18:45:16Z akkad: ok I have a class queue which may work
2016-07-28T18:45:36Z phoe: akkad: to the front, or to the back? :P
2016-07-28T18:45:45Z phoe: I guess to the back, at which what jackdaniel said.
2016-07-28T18:45:53Z akkad: back
2016-07-28T18:46:41Z phoe: akkad: if you want a ready solution, (QL:QUICKLOAD :JPL-QUEUES).
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2016-07-28T18:46:51Z phoe: Grab an UNBOUNDED-FIFO-QUEUE from there.
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2016-07-28T18:50:04Z phoe: Wrap it in a SYNCHRONIZED-QUEUE for thread safety.
2016-07-28T18:50:22Z phoe: But if you want to append something to the front of the list, well, um.
2016-07-28T18:50:32Z phoe: There's a much easier built-in solution for that~
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2016-07-28T18:52:45Z akkad: phoe: thanks
2016-07-28T18:53:11Z phoe: akkad: no problem~ If you end up having other issues, we're here to help.
2016-07-28T18:56:51Z Baggers: last question for now. I may have missed it whilst reading through uiop but is there a semi reliable way to get the path of the binary when running a saved core (through save-lisp-and-die). This is so I can find media files relative to that binary
2016-07-28T18:57:25Z jasom: Baggers: I think one of the uiop argument thingys gives you argv[0] which works everywhere but on the mac I think
2016-07-28T18:57:38Z jasom: and it works on a mac if you aren't in an application bundle
2016-07-28T18:57:55Z Baggers: oh nice, I was worried about windows support for that
2016-07-28T18:57:57Z Baggers: good to hear
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2016-07-28T18:59:07Z jasom: If I know it's on windows I'm lazy and just use the CWD, as when you double-click on an executable it runs in the directory of the executable unless you specify otherwise in a pif (or whatever they call those these days)
2016-07-28T19:00:04Z Baggers: thanks, that's something I can definitely test when it comes to it
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2016-07-28T19:00:30Z jasom: e.g. when distributing ltk I just drop a tclkit in the same directory as the lisp image
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2016-07-28T19:03:27Z Baggers: right I best head off, thanks for all the help
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2016-07-28T19:47:15Z jasom: hmm does clx not have an equivalent to XDestroyImage?
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2016-07-28T19:55:15Z jasom: nevermind, XImage doesn't seem to use any server-side memory
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2016-07-28T20:11:29Z lucar: Hi
2016-07-28T20:11:48Z lucar: I need some help suggestion on a good lisp implementation for windows
2016-07-28T20:12:03Z lucar: I have tried both clozure cl , sbcl and clisp
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2016-07-28T20:12:21Z Xach: lucar: clozure cl and sbcl are pretty good. if you have money to spend, lispworks and allegro cl are also good options.
2016-07-28T20:12:22Z lucar: and while I have configured successfully slime
2016-07-28T20:12:45Z lucar: I have not been able to fully debug and recompile code
2016-07-28T20:13:12Z lucar: as explained http://malisper.me/2015/07/07/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/
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2016-07-28T20:13:39Z lucar: while I haven't had any issue on a macbook
2016-07-28T20:13:47Z Xach: lucar: what happens when you try?
2016-07-28T20:14:07Z lucar: after recompilation
2016-07-28T20:14:29Z lucar: I am not able to step properly trought the stack traces
2016-07-28T20:14:40Z lucar: the one that is working the best is clisp
2016-07-28T20:14:54Z Xach: lucar: what happens when you try?
2016-07-28T20:15:18Z lucar: but the stacktraces of my source code get mixed with plenty of symbols from the clisp implementation itself apparently
2016-07-28T20:15:51Z lucar: Xach have you read?
2016-07-28T20:16:00Z sweater quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-07-28T20:16:20Z Xach: lucar: read what?
2016-07-28T20:16:39Z lucar: that I am not able to step trough the stack frames
2016-07-28T20:16:44Z lucar: after recompilation
2016-07-28T20:16:49Z Xach: lucar: yes. can you tell me what happens when you try to do that?
2016-07-28T20:17:09Z lucar: I see the stack frames but I cannot "step"
2016-07-28T20:17:28Z lucar: the 's' command does not work
2016-07-28T20:17:35Z Xach: lucar: oh. i don't think that works anywhere.
2016-07-28T20:17:43Z lucar: yes
2016-07-28T20:17:44Z lucar: exactly
2016-07-28T20:17:45Z pierpa: SBCL on windows is not good
2016-07-28T20:17:58Z lucar: but this works correctly on a macbook
2016-07-28T20:18:08Z lucar: on windows
2016-07-28T20:18:22Z lucar: it seems that it doesn't work anywhere
2016-07-28T20:18:31Z lucar: while it works on a macosx
2016-07-28T20:18:31Z Xach: lucar: oh, ok. sorry, i don't know. i use sbcl but have not tried to use stepping.
2016-07-28T20:18:39Z Xach: I had the impression that it did not work on any OS.
2016-07-28T20:18:51Z lucar: and how do you debug without stepping?
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2016-07-28T20:19:25Z Xach: lucar: breaking, inspecting, tracing, printing
2016-07-28T20:19:29Z Xach: thinking
2016-07-28T20:19:47Z lucar: that's terrible
2016-07-28T20:19:51Z lucar: stepping is so handy
2016-07-28T20:19:53Z lucar: I mean
2016-07-28T20:20:03Z lucar: coming from other languages I give this for granted
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2016-07-28T20:20:45Z dlowe: breaking and inspecting gets you 90% there, really.
2016-07-28T20:21:11Z dlowe: and the inspection facilities available are super nice
2016-07-28T20:21:44Z dlowe: I had to give up stepping entirely once I started working with big data anyway :/
2016-07-28T20:22:16Z lucar: ok
2016-07-28T20:22:38Z lucar: so nobody here uses "stepping" as a debugging tool?
2016-07-28T20:24:00Z oGMo: i don't think i usually have issues that stepping even solves, it's usually easier to see where the data is off overall or study logs etc
2016-07-28T20:24:33Z oGMo: stepping is available though in most implementations though isn't it?
2016-07-28T20:24:36Z jasom: lucar: I keep forgetting that stepping exists.  It may work better if you compile on maximum debug
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2016-07-28T20:25:01Z dlowe: I bet stepping works fine in Lispworks for Windows
2016-07-28T20:25:10Z jasom: to recompile a file on maximum debug from slime: C-u C-c C-k
2016-07-28T20:25:10Z lucar: jasom obviously I compiled with (declaim (optimize (debug 3)))
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2016-07-28T20:25:39Z lucar: my point is that in my brief experience stepping doesn't work on any major open source lisp implementation on windows
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2016-07-28T20:25:56Z lucar: while it works correctly on macosx at least, haven't tried linux
2016-07-28T20:26:03Z oGMo: even CCL? weird
2016-07-28T20:26:09Z lucar: yes
2016-07-28T20:26:11Z lucar: even CCL
2016-07-28T20:26:20Z jasom: weird that ccl is different on windows than *nix for stepping
2016-07-28T20:26:20Z lucar: but I might be wrong
2016-07-28T20:26:34Z lucar: I am an experienced programmer but a newcomer to lisp
2016-07-28T20:27:04Z jasom: I don't remember the last time I debugged a lisp program on windows
2016-07-28T20:27:12Z lucar: eh...
2016-07-28T20:27:20Z jasom: I think I've done it twice in the past 10 years or so?
2016-07-28T20:27:32Z lucar: I apologize but I have to use windows at work
2016-07-28T20:27:37Z jasom: naturally
2016-07-28T20:27:53Z lucar: and wanted to see if I could introduce lisp as an additional tool for some small utilities
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2016-07-28T20:29:13Z lucar: jasom for what are you using lisp?
2016-07-28T20:29:37Z lucar: dlowe I haven't tried any commercial Lisp distro
2016-07-28T20:29:40Z jasom: lucar: mostly personal projects.  I wrote a utility in it for work and they had me rewrite it in python.  I still prototype in lisp
2016-07-28T20:30:38Z lucar: that's what attracted me to lisp
2016-07-28T20:30:50Z jasom: and at work I have a windows machine but do most of my work in linux
2016-07-28T20:31:04Z lucar: I had to experiment quite a bit and I was interested by the possibility to quickly "iterate"
2016-07-28T20:31:13Z lucar: uhmm...
2016-07-28T20:31:25Z lucar: in the end I developed my stuff on my macbook at home...
2016-07-28T20:31:35Z lucar: I see a pattern here..
2016-07-28T20:31:53Z jasom: a lot of my coworkers have macs, but I don't see the attraction for non-laptops
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2016-07-28T20:32:35Z jasom: my main workstation is linux, the windows machine is for doing testing and validation on windows, as well as reproducing customer issues that are windows-specific
2016-07-28T20:33:11Z lucar: our product is built on .NET
2016-07-28T20:33:16Z lucar: that says it all
2016-07-28T20:33:43Z jasom: oh, I should see if I still have the screenshot of an emacs session running foil with tab-completion of .net objects
2016-07-28T20:34:06Z lucar: never used emacs for .NET projects
2016-07-28T20:34:12Z jasom: I actually got gtksharp working in that faster than I've ever gotten a gui working in lisp from scratch
2016-07-28T20:34:15Z rszeno: .net is also ported on linux
2016-07-28T20:34:33Z lucar: .NET core
2016-07-28T20:34:36Z lucar: not .NEY
2016-07-28T20:34:39Z lucar: .NET
2016-07-28T20:34:43Z lucar: there are some differences
2016-07-28T20:34:57Z lucar: that require code refactorings in the best case
2016-07-28T20:35:02Z lucar: and some changes in the worst
2016-07-28T20:35:03Z lucar: also
2016-07-28T20:35:20Z lucar: classical .NET has some history
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2016-07-28T20:35:26Z lucar: take a product that is used by customer
2016-07-28T20:35:53Z lucar: and port it on a derived new framework on a new platform
2016-07-28T20:35:55Z lucar: ?
2016-07-28T20:36:02Z lucar: something that will be definetely be done
2016-07-28T20:36:17Z lucar: but only when .NET core will further mature
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2016-07-28T20:37:37Z rszeno i don't care about .net, :)
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2016-07-28T20:40:46Z lucar: is there anybody here that works as a core developer of some lisp implementation?
2016-07-28T20:41:07Z jasom: lucar: sbcl devs sometimes hang out here; you can also try #sbcl.
2016-07-28T20:41:13Z jasom: jackdaniel: is maintainer of ecl I think
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2016-07-28T20:43:19Z rszeno: probably on #maxima there you can meet the developer for gcl
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2016-07-28T20:49:29Z rszeno: except lush, which is hard to say that is lisp or something else, you have some directions, :)
2016-07-28T20:51:16Z jasom: lucar: http://i.imgur.com/Oceo8lZ.png
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2016-07-28T20:53:06Z jasom: and http://i.imgur.com/47ZvtrG.png
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2016-07-28T20:55:24Z rszeno void is capitslised?
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2016-07-28T20:56:34Z jasom: rszeno: yeah that is weird
2016-07-28T20:57:48Z rszeno: if doesn't create problems, is ok
2016-07-28T20:58:42Z jasom: one limitation of foil is that it upcases all method names for ease of use in lisp.  GtkSharp had a method named "New" which obviously caused conflicts.
2016-07-28T20:58:44Z rszeno: actualy can run sed on output
2016-07-28T21:02:26Z jasom: It also led me to discover that sbcl uses a lot of space with very large toplevel forms.  The default wrapper generator generates a single form per package and gtk generated a 23MB file; it took 16 hours to compile that file; I modified it to generate multiple top-level forms and compilation finishes in minutes now.
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2016-07-28T21:04:50Z rszeno: that's good. :)
2016-07-28T21:05:25Z jasom: but this is what Rich Hickey did before he decided to write clojure
2016-07-28T21:08:13Z jasom: I ported it from LW specific garbage code to tg: https://github.com/jasom/foil
2016-07-28T21:12:23Z jackdaniel: lucar: as jasom mentioned, I work on ECL
2016-07-28T21:13:52Z jackdaniel goes sleep, query me I'll respond tomorrow :) o/
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2016-07-28T21:19:21Z burtons: Xach: is there a way to get a package description from quicklisp using the package name?
2016-07-28T21:19:42Z burtons: Xach: or any other way really, I'm just curious if descriptions are included in the ql database
2016-07-28T21:22:08Z rszeno: jasom, maybe changing ~A to ~a in a single place can fix the capitalistion. The problem is to find the place
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2016-07-28T21:31:19Z Xach: burtons: not included. i want to add it. in the meantime, quickdocs.org would be good.
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2016-07-28T21:31:51Z burtons: ok, thanks, couldn't find anything in the docs so i thought i would ask
2016-07-28T21:32:18Z burtons: i'm creating a bit of a wrapper around ql i'm calling clpm, based on npm
2016-07-28T21:32:37Z Xach: burtons: ok
2016-07-28T21:32:38Z burtons: just playing around, but having descriptions for searching would be nice
2016-07-28T21:33:01Z Xach: burtons: i agree. i would like to include a db of a short description soon. along with provenance info. not done yet though.
2016-07-28T21:33:33Z devon: Can anyone suggest a portable way to run a program so that lisp can both read-char and read-byte from the output?
2016-07-28T21:35:23Z burtons: does ASDF search for .asdf files in the 'current' directory? if not, how do we add the current directory to the search path?
2016-07-28T21:35:27Z lucar: sorry iI have been away
2016-07-28T21:35:32Z lucar: what are those two images?
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2016-07-28T21:42:21Z pjb: rszeno: format specifiers are case insensitive.
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2016-07-28T21:44:37Z rszeno: possible you are right but with ~a i get lower cases of what i print, some old sbcl interpreter
2016-07-28T21:45:24Z rszeno: it could be a bug in sbcl?
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2016-07-28T21:46:39Z rszeno: i have no idea what clojure will do, was a suggestion only
2016-07-28T21:46:39Z pjb: probably.
2016-07-28T21:47:18Z pjb: To get lower case, you would use ~(~A~)  to get upper case, ~:@(~A~)
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2016-07-28T21:49:19Z rszeno: i usualy use ~s and format  the argument before. Anyway jason can be interested in your solution
2016-07-28T21:53:40Z rszeno format is very powerfull in  lisp but is a lot to learn( comparing for ex. with c printf ), :)
2016-07-28T21:54:35Z rszeno: a lot of (, {, [ ...:)
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2016-07-28T21:58:15Z rszeno I'm fighting with LFE right now, Robert Virding blog
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2016-07-28T22:04:10Z jasom: devon: I just looked into it.  Every open-source implementation I tried except CCL starts with a bivalent stdin/stdout
2016-07-28T22:04:51Z jasom: devon: I considered writing a library that would make a bivalent stream from an fdstream on ccl and use the existing stream otherwise
2016-07-28T22:05:51Z jasom: devon: oh, clisp as well
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2016-07-28T22:14:23Z rszeno: jasom, i just checked, *terminal-io* is bidirectional
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2016-07-28T22:15:10Z jasom: cmucl, sbcl, ecl are already bivalent clisp and ecl are not
2016-07-28T22:15:24Z jasom: those are all I have installed
2016-07-28T22:15:48Z rszeno: aha,
2016-07-28T22:17:42Z rszeno implementation-dependent
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2016-07-28T22:28:45Z rszeno: jasom, see pjb sugestion, relative to lowercase, the ~( and ~) format case
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2016-07-28T22:29:28Z jasom: rszeno: I'm well aware of how format works.  I'm just uninterested in having mixed-case symbols just because one person thought having an identifier named "New" in a language where "new" is a reserved word was a good idea.
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2016-07-28T22:31:11Z rszeno: ok, :)
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2016-07-28T22:54:43Z devon: jasom: so many libraries, so few neurons.  I used flexi-streams to amend the CCL binary stream from external-program.
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