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2016-06-18T00:22:05Z jasom: so I'm trying to decide if I should rewrite a series of shell scripts in lisp; it is really a pain to have lisp treat a stream as a bunch of bytes, some of which might be ascii.  Is there anything better than flexi-streams for this?  In the past I've fallen back on just specifying a 1-to-1 mapping of char-code and bytes which is confusing to read but much more concise than bivalent streams.
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2016-06-18T00:30:47Z pierpa: uh?
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2016-06-18T00:41:13Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: what do you want to do ?
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2016-06-18T00:48:01Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: I have data; it is encoded in some unknown superset of ascii.  I want to e.g. escape certain ascii values with backslashes.
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2016-06-18T00:51:34Z fe[nl]ix: so ?
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2016-06-18T00:52:33Z fe[nl]ix: you can read bytes
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2016-06-18T03:42:24Z akkad: for unique lists, a hash is the way to go?
2016-06-18T03:43:03Z PuercoPop: akad you mean collections with no duplicates?
2016-06-18T03:43:08Z akkad: yes
2016-06-18T03:43:11Z Quadrescence: what does that mean
2016-06-18T03:43:14Z Quadrescence: way to go for what
2016-06-18T03:43:27Z PuercoPop: akkad: yeah, there is https://github.com/samebchase/hash-set
2016-06-18T03:43:28Z akkad: a collection without dupes
2016-06-18T03:43:38Z akkad: k
2016-06-18T03:43:45Z Quadrescence: what do you want to do with this list
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2016-06-18T03:43:52Z PuercoPop: btw Quadrescence there was a bug in your implementation of this
2016-06-18T03:44:04Z PuercoPop: he meant list as collection of probably
2016-06-18T03:44:04Z akkad: keep it free of dupes
2016-06-18T03:44:19Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, my implementation of what
2016-06-18T03:44:48Z PuercoPop: Quadrescence: of map-set
2016-06-18T03:44:59Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, can it be fixed
2016-06-18T03:45:35Z Quadrescence: i see, i wish bitbucket notified me of issues
2016-06-18T03:45:39Z Quadrescence: maybe there's a setting
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2016-06-18T03:48:02Z PuercoPop: there may be a setting but bitbuckets UI is such a mess I wouldn't be able to find it ^_^
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2016-06-18T03:48:45Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, i see the bug, it was a dumb bug
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2016-06-18T03:58:20Z akkad: universal (length) would be amazing.
2016-06-18T04:00:05Z Zhivago: Why do you care if there are dupes?
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2016-06-18T04:01:31Z akkad: why should any datastructure ever want to prevent dupes. or acid databases with unique constraints.
2016-06-18T04:02:10Z akkad: Zhivago: can you clarify?
2016-06-18T04:02:39Z Zhivago: You're asking me to clarify why you care if there are dupes?
2016-06-18T04:02:54Z akkad: why do you care if I care if there are dupes?
2016-06-18T04:03:07Z Zhivago: In order to have a less stupid conversation.
2016-06-18T04:03:11Z akkad: why do sets exist?
2016-06-18T04:03:29Z Zhivago: Although I suspect that's not going to be possible ...
2016-06-18T04:03:41Z akkad: yeah, deconstructionist conversations rarely are
2016-06-18T04:03:57Z akkad: "I need a unique list" "no you dont" "uh.. ok"
2016-06-18T04:04:20Z Zhivago: Well, you do seem to have a remarkable reading comprehension disorder.
2016-06-18T04:04:26Z Zhivago: Try re-reading the question.
2016-06-18T04:04:39Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, thanks, the issue was that the last element wasn't correctly handled
2016-06-18T04:04:48Z akkad: <Zhivago> Why do you care if there are dupes?  <Akkad> because then it would not be a unique list.
2016-06-18T04:04:50Z Quadrescence: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/map-set/commits/7b4b545b68b8309ce2bc1354357dc97e29533c65
2016-06-18T04:05:20Z akkad: "why?" is not an answer to "how?"
2016-06-18T04:05:44Z Zhivago: A tautology isn't an answer as to why ...
2016-06-18T04:08:52Z akkad: PuercoPop: Quadrescence thanks for the help
2016-06-18T04:09:33Z PuercoPop: Quadrescence: np, sorry I didn't delve into it but I found samebchase library already working
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2016-06-18T04:14:39Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, i only wrote this library in response to an interview question back in 2012-2013
2016-06-18T04:14:44Z Quadrescence: "library"
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2016-06-18T04:16:54Z akkad: ahh sets work.
2016-06-18T04:17:45Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, you are a real trooper in the lisp community
2016-06-18T04:17:58Z Ober: ^^
2016-06-18T04:18:09Z Ober: is there a donation place ?:P
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2016-06-18T04:42:48Z Ober: akkad: zhivago was just asking why you expect a unique list to not have dupes. no need to be rude.
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2016-06-18T04:46:58Z Zhivago: No. I wasn't asking that -- I was asking why not having dupes is important to him in this case.
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2016-06-18T04:48:13Z Ober: Zhivago: english is hard
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2016-06-18T04:48:39Z Zhivago: For many people that is true.
2016-06-18T04:49:20Z Ober: it was pretty clear he needed a unique structure. not sure why it matters why.
2016-06-18T04:49:24Z Ober: she
2016-06-18T04:50:35Z Quadrescence: Zhivago is an american treasure
2016-06-18T04:51:07Z Quadrescence: he's usually right but you only realize 2-5 years down the line
2016-06-18T04:51:50Z Zhivago: Ober: It almost always matters why in order to be able to make a reasonable choice.
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2016-06-18T04:52:32Z Zhivago: I remmeber one person who was upset that it was so complicated to delete something from his database.
2016-06-18T04:52:49Z Zhivago: He didn't realize that deletion from the database was completely irrelevant to the problem.
2016-06-18T04:52:58Z Zhivago: He just needed it excluded from the results.
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2016-06-18T04:53:34Z Zhivago: Generally people who have problems have them because they have the wrong questions.
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2016-06-18T10:01:24Z therik: ..morning
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2016-06-18T10:04:45Z therik: how do I check if dynamic var is defined?
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2016-06-18T10:06:25Z _death: by "defined" do you mean "bound"?
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2016-06-18T10:07:31Z therik: ah wait, I can just use defvar
2016-06-18T10:07:37Z therik: and not care if it's bound
2016-06-18T10:07:41Z therik: _death, yes, bound
2016-06-18T10:07:59Z _death: clhs boundp
2016-06-18T10:08:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_boundp.htm
2016-06-18T10:08:33Z therik: it's much easier to find now that you told me it's called binding :)
2016-06-18T10:08:55Z therik: thanks
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2016-06-18T11:37:02Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: docbook2x produces some trash I'm afraid. But pandoc (also suggested thanks to my mini-rant) is more promising (though produced file doesn't compile with makeinfo due to some problems with node names)
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2016-06-18T11:38:25Z therik: I need to do three things: convert alist to plist, get one key-value pair from that and remove the key-value pair from the final plist... is there something for this use case or do I need to write my own?
2016-06-18T11:39:16Z therik: if I do alexandria:alist-plist, that's O(n), then extract from plist is O(n) and remve from plist is also O(n), but it's possible to do with single pass
2016-06-18T11:39:44Z therik: i can write it myself, just asking if there's something so I don't reinvent the wheel..
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2016-06-18T11:42:07Z jackdaniel: I doubt there is somewhere such function – it's trivial and not used often enough to write it down in a library (I suppose)
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2016-06-18T11:55:27Z _death: therik: since by your own analysis every operation is O(n), chaining them will also be O(n)
2016-06-18T11:57:08Z therik: _death, O(n) / 3... which is like O(n) but 3x faster :-)
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2016-06-18T11:59:37Z therik: actually, remove-from-alist would be enough, I know that the element I want is on first spot most of the time
2016-06-18T12:00:18Z _death: therik: my point is that you're microoptimizing.. if you claim that jumbling the operations into one will result in something that's 3x faster I'd like to see the benchmarks
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2016-06-18T12:05:29Z therik: _death, you're right... alist-plist it is then...
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2016-06-18T12:17:32Z scymtym: depending on how the plist is used, you can in some cases do O(1) "removal" with (list* :KEY nil PLIST) or (list* :KEY :removed PLIST)
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2016-06-18T13:31:29Z Grue`: therik: if your plists and alists are so long that they're O(n) instead of O(1) (that is, can get arbitrarily long), you're better off using hash tables
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2016-06-18T13:33:45Z therik: Grue`, I think I was just optimizing too much...
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2016-06-18T13:46:12Z Zhivago: Although hash-tables can also be pretty bad. :)
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2016-06-18T14:07:17Z dim: well write a proper set of access functions so that you can switch from alist to plist to hash tables to anything else (red black trees, whatever) later
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2016-06-18T14:46:41Z Velveeta_Chef: What's a good starting point for learning Common-Lisp, I don't have any programming experience.
2016-06-18T14:46:50Z alchemizt: ouch
2016-06-18T14:47:25Z alchemizt: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2016-06-18T14:48:07Z alchemizt: https://github.com/roswell/roswell <-- if you're on linux, this should make getting a lisp environment setup easier
2016-06-18T14:49:44Z alchemizt: http://lisp-lang.org/learn/
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2016-06-18T14:52:09Z Velveeta_Chef: yeah I'm on Linux, and I've been getting used to emacs
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2016-06-18T15:04:36Z holycow: uh, roswell?
2016-06-18T15:04:37Z holycow: for linux?
2016-06-18T15:04:39Z holycow: seriously?
2016-06-18T15:04:49Z holycow: i had no idea package managers were so difficult touse
2016-06-18T15:05:21Z holycow: what am i not understanding about roswell?  what problem does it solve?
2016-06-18T15:06:44Z holycow: well, the authors are much smarter than i.  that is probably th eissue right there.
2016-06-18T15:06:48Z holycow: i'll shush now.
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2016-06-18T16:32:43Z PuercoPop: scymtym: is wip-walk-forms-new-marco-stuff a second attempt at the work on wip-walk-forms-structures?
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2016-06-18T16:51:19Z anannie: Hey everyone, I'm starting the book; Practical Common Lisp over here. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html
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2016-06-18T16:52:48Z anannie: And I'd like to pick a REPL + Lisp implementation that I can use to implement most stuff from SICP (with very little adaptation) and play around with building web apps. What should I pick? I'm using OSX el capitan
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2016-06-18T16:54:32Z Oladon: anannie: SICP uses Scheme, which is different from Common Lisp
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2016-06-18T16:55:22Z anannie: Oladon: Yes... Is there any lisp that I can use that is similar in nature? Because most scheme implementations I've found don't work well on my machine and/or don't have support for building web apps?
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2016-06-18T16:56:58Z PuercoPop: anannie: if you want to work through the SICP racket has a sicp language mode that works
2016-06-18T16:57:18Z PuercoPop: (but that this channel is about Common Lisp only)
2016-06-18T16:57:18Z Oladon: anannie: There's no "hybrid" between Scheme and Common Lisp. I'd recommend learning both.
2016-06-18T16:57:28Z anannie: PuercoPop: I wanted to Practical Common Lisp first though...
2016-06-18T16:57:36Z Oladon: anannie: Then start with Common Lisp
2016-06-18T16:57:52Z anannie: Oladon: Ah I see. How are the two different? (not sure if I'll appreciate the subtleties, but I'd still like to understand)
2016-06-18T16:57:53Z Oladon: They're very similar; it's not like you'll have to learn two completely different languages
2016-06-18T16:58:02Z PuercoPop: ah, then the best is to start with Emacs + SBCL
2016-06-18T16:58:34Z PuercoPop: if you want to work in the bare REPL (not recommended) clisp the best
2016-06-18T16:58:58Z PuercoPop: (Emacs + Slime + SBCL)
2016-06-18T16:59:00Z Oladon: anannie: Scheme is a Lisp-1, while Common Lisp is a Lisp-2; you can look up the differences between those two :)
2016-06-18T16:59:12Z Oladon: PuercoPop: Or SBCL + rlwrap, which is what I use these days :P
2016-06-18T16:59:18Z anannie: Oladon: Will I get the differences between the two?
2016-06-18T17:00:08Z Oladon: anannie: You'll find results for them with those search terms, yes. If you're asking whether or not you'll understand them, that I can't say, but probably :)
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2016-06-18T17:00:20Z Oladon: anannie: I assume you've programmed before?
2016-06-18T17:00:24Z PuercoPop: Oladon: sbcl + rlwrap doesn't have tab-completion for example
2016-06-18T17:00:40Z Oladon: PuercoPop: True. Tab completion is for Java developers ;)
2016-06-18T17:00:57Z Oladon: (I jest)
2016-06-18T17:00:59Z anannie: Oladon: I have. Nothing elaborate and long though. Just written scripts and tiny control loops for robots.
2016-06-18T17:01:09Z Oladon: anannie: What language(s) have you used before?
2016-06-18T17:01:20Z anannie: Oladon: C, lua, python, and ruby
2016-06-18T17:01:38Z Oladon: Ah :)
2016-06-18T17:01:39Z PuercoPop: Oladon: it is also for people who don't want to type the whole of  multiple-value-bind
2016-06-18T17:01:50Z Oladon: PuercoPop: Indeed. Or destructuring-bind
2016-06-18T17:01:54Z anannie: Oladon: I've even done ASM :)
2016-06-18T17:02:22Z Oladon: anannie: Okay. You should be fine learning two dialects of Lisp, then :)
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2016-06-18T17:04:02Z anannie: Oladon, PuercoPop: anything other than emacs, btw?
2016-06-18T17:04:26Z Oladon: Emacs is highly recommended
2016-06-18T17:04:28Z scymtym: PuercoPop: just saw your message. i have to run now. will talk to you later
2016-06-18T17:04:48Z Oladon: (I've got to run)
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2016-06-18T17:06:54Z anannie: Oladon: I know, but I feel that it gets in the way of learning and that it's a project on its own.
2016-06-18T17:07:07Z anannie: Oladon: Is there something simple that I can use?
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2016-06-18T17:12:12Z therik: guys, I want to have a condition so I can type (error 'my-cond "foo"), and then the my-cond object should have slot :text with value "Error with value: \"foo\""... yet I can't seem to get it right, those conditions are not firing up initialize-instance and I can't seem to find a way to define it in slot initform..
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2016-06-18T17:16:12Z PuercoPop: anannie: I recommended clisp for bare-repl already. jasom recently published a geanie plugin but you still have to run emacs from the looks of it, https://phab.jasom.org/diffusion/GL/browse/master/
2016-06-18T17:16:43Z PuercoPop: also if you are using OS X ccl has its own port of hemlock
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2016-06-18T17:48:53Z phoe_krk: I'm following beach's advice of separating my internal protocol (a bunch of DEFGENERICs) from implementation (DEFCLASSes/DEFMETHODs) and I ended up noticing that the actual protocol becomes pretty tiny and concise. And both thinking on it and writing it down shows what I actually want from my program.
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2016-06-18T18:28:01Z phoe_krk: What library should I be utilizing for handling unixtimes?
2016-06-18T18:29:53Z Grue`: therik: you can't do (error 'my-cond "foo"), try (error 'my-cond :text "foo") instead
2016-06-18T18:30:06Z Grue`: (error "something") is a special case
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2016-06-18T18:31:15Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: local-time?
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2016-06-18T19:15:40Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: yesssss. Thank you.
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2016-06-18T19:27:14Z knobo: therik: (define-condition foo (error) ((foo :initform "foobar" :initarg :foo :reader foo)))
2016-06-18T19:29:42Z knobo: (error 'foo :foo :snafu)
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2016-06-18T20:06:06Z scymtym: PuercoPop: i made the -new-macro-stuff branch to adapt the code to changes in the areas of lambda-list parsing and macroexpansion that had taken place in SBCL at the time
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2016-06-18T20:23:12Z dim: (let ((a​bc 12) (ab​c 53)) (values a​bc ab​c))
2016-06-18T20:23:32Z dim: having some fun with unicode and U+200B (ZERO WIDTH SPACE)
2016-06-18T20:23:56Z dim: (let ((a​bc 12) (ab​c 53)) (values a​bc ab​c)) returns 12 and 53
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2016-06-18T20:49:48Z knobo: how and for what do I use &environment
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2016-06-18T21:17:10Z luis: knobo: macroexpansion. The environment will hold info about macrolets.
2016-06-18T21:17:39Z luis: also, constantp.
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2016-06-18T21:47:48Z therik: wow, when I'm awake for too long, all those parentheses look kind of trippy
2016-06-18T21:49:50Z pierpa: what parenthesis
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2016-06-18T21:52:06Z therik: pierpa: :)
2016-06-18T21:52:39Z pierpa: ;)
2016-06-18T21:53:25Z pjb: http://tinyurl.com/lisp-parentheses
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2016-06-18T22:40:11Z Velveeta_Chef: Practical Common Lisp is a good book, but Chapter 3 is like drinking from a firehose
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2016-06-18T22:49:34Z fourier`: Velveeta_Chef: good thing about CL is what there are more than 1 book available
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2016-06-18T22:59:20Z Velveeta_Chef: I have Common Lisp a gentle introduction coming
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2016-06-18T22:59:39Z Velveeta_Chef: sometimes it's nice to have the dead tree version
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2016-06-18T23:02:17Z pjb: You could ask also a dead dynosaure version.
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