2016-06-13T00:00:16Z didi: Shouldn't (loop for fn in (loop for x in '(a b) collect (lambda () x)) collect (funcall fn)) eval to (a b) instead of (b b)? 2016-06-13T00:01:59Z Bike: no, the closures use the same binding in your case. the inner loop is like (let (x) (list (progn (setf x 'a) (lambda () x)) (progn (setf x 'b) (lambda () x)))). 2016-06-13T00:02:17Z didi: Bike: oic 2016-06-13T00:02:42Z wccoder joined #lisp 2016-06-13T00:03:06Z didi: Sneaky bug in my program. 2016-06-13T00:04:02Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T00:05:19Z didi: Interestingly (for me), (loop for fn in (mapcar (lambda (x) (lambda () x)) '(a b)) collect (funcall fn)) evals to (a b). 2016-06-13T00:07:00Z wccoder quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-06-13T00:08:27Z Bike: right, because then it's a new binding each time. 2016-06-13T00:08:55Z pmc joined #lisp 2016-06-13T00:11:56Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2016-06-13T00:11:56Z Zhivago quit (Changing host) 2016-06-13T00:11:56Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2016-06-13T00:14:21Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-06-13T00:15:30Z pmc: This is from The Little Schemer: http:/paste.lisp.org/+6TJI Why doesn't this code run when I try: ((length0 nil) #'eternity) ? I get (length0 nil) is not a function name. 2016-06-13T00:16:22Z Bike: because lisp is not scheme, and in lisp that's invalid syntax. you'd do (funcall (length0 nil) #'eternity). 2016-06-13T00:16:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-13T00:16:36Z pmc: cool, thanks 2016-06-13T00:16:52Z Bike: which means you need (funcall length (cdr l)) in the body, also 2016-06-13T00:18:07Z pmc: alright, I'll try that. 2016-06-13T00:18:22Z didi: I am still shocked by this LOOP behavior, but I took the opportunity to optimize my function. Thank you, Bike. 2016-06-13T00:18:27Z Bike: this means your call is invalid, of course. maybe you meant (funcall (length0 #'eternity) nil) 2016-06-13T00:18:48Z pmc: Indeed, I did. Nice catch 2016-06-13T00:19:13Z Bike: didi: it's a subtle thing. people ask about it all the time. i forget if it's defined to do this or not (dolist has it undefined) 2016-06-13T00:19:44Z didi: Bike: Oh really? Good to know. I never thought about it. :-) 2016-06-13T00:21:36Z peey quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-06-13T00:22:56Z helio quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T00:23:12Z helio joined #lisp 2016-06-13T00:23:43Z helio quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T00:24:42Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-06-13T00:25:46Z TruePika: hm, interesting question 2016-06-13T00:26:07Z TruePika: say I have a function A which depends on B, which in turn depends on A 2016-06-13T00:26:27Z Bike: "depends on" meaning "calls or has as a value"? 2016-06-13T00:26:40Z TruePika: calls 2016-06-13T00:26:44Z Bike: okay. 2016-06-13T00:27:07Z TruePika: I'm wondering what the proper solution is to then suppress the SBCL style-warning that occurs 2016-06-13T00:27:42Z Bike: if they're compiled together (e.g., in the same file) there is no warning. 2016-06-13T00:28:06Z TruePika: same compiliation unit, to be more specific for that? 2016-06-13T00:28:11Z Bike: yeah 2016-06-13T00:28:33Z TruePika: not that I've been messing with CUs, but I'm at least aware of them :) 2016-06-13T00:29:45Z unbalancedparen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-13T00:29:45Z TruePika: (load "foo.lisp") doesn't put the entire file into the same CU, AFAIK, though 2016-06-13T00:30:08Z Bike: it doesn't put them in any, since then you're not compiling the file, you're just reading and evaluating one form at a time. 2016-06-13T00:30:33Z TruePika: ah, and then the warning makes sense, when you consider it that way 2016-06-13T00:30:40Z Bike: of course, on sbcl evaluation will almost certainly compile the form, so you might as well just compile file 2016-06-13T00:31:02Z TruePika: (I knew it did the implicit function compile, and I know it does evaluation, but I never thought about the specifics) 2016-06-13T00:31:32Z TruePika: now to see if Limp has a bind in place for compile-and-load (if I remember the name correctly) 2016-06-13T00:31:37Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-13T00:32:34Z TruePika: yeah, cl or cf, where I have being backslash 2016-06-13T00:32:57Z TruePika: The former is compile-and-load, the latter is compile-file 2016-06-13T00:33:11Z TruePika: I normally just \lf which does LOAD 2016-06-13T00:34:06Z TruePika: I really should hardcopy this key list at some point, and memorize it, since it has some useful stuff I can never remember 2016-06-13T00:34:33Z TruePika: wait, THIS HAS HYPERSPEC ACCESS?! 2016-06-13T00:34:34Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2016-06-13T00:35:07Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-06-13T00:35:12Z TruePika: like I said, I don't know a huge amount about Limp 2016-06-13T00:36:13Z TruePika: and I don't see the hyperspec commands actually do anything :( 2016-06-13T00:36:21Z helio joined #lisp 2016-06-13T00:36:24Z Bike: you might have to have a local copy or something. 2016-06-13T00:36:43Z TruePika: possibly, but I'd expect an error message TBH 2016-06-13T00:36:52Z Bike: reasonable. 2016-06-13T00:38:03Z TruePika: yeah, just found the function def for LimpBridge_hyperspec 2016-06-13T00:38:11Z TruePika: it invokes...lol 2016-06-13T00:38:13Z TruePika: Perl 2016-06-13T00:38:20Z TruePika: not what I'd have expected 2016-06-13T00:38:30Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-13T00:38:55Z TruePika: a /bin/limp-hyperspec.pl which I don't appear to have 2016-06-13T00:39:09Z TruePika: anywhere at all, in fact 2016-06-13T00:39:28Z TruePika: not in the Limp archive I have 2016-06-13T00:39:43Z keltvek quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T00:40:07Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-06-13T00:41:24Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-06-13T00:42:13Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-06-13T00:45:49Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-13T00:50:29Z didi: Uh, a Lisp IDE for VIM. Cool. 2016-06-13T00:51:33Z isoraqathedh: Slinv? 2016-06-13T00:51:36Z isoraqathedh: s/n/m/ 2016-06-13T00:51:52Z didi: Limp. 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2016-06-13T13:57:58Z shifty: thank you. reading away. 2016-06-13T13:58:53Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:00:27Z shim joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:00:42Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-06-13T14:02:52Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-06-13T14:02:55Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:04:15Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:06:13Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-06-13T14:07:41Z wccoder joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:12:16Z wccoder quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-06-13T14:14:02Z drake12 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T14:14:38Z papachan: morning 2016-06-13T14:14:54Z jackdaniel: hey 2016-06-13T14:15:06Z TMA: ` 2016-06-13T14:19:32Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-13T14:20:35Z wgslayer quit (Quit: wgslayer) 2016-06-13T14:21:16Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-06-13T14:23:50Z peey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-13T14:25:42Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:26:56Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:27:47Z lxpz 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Almost, compute-applicable-methods-using-classes 2016-06-13T14:36:27Z jackdaniel: I've tried it before, but my invocation was wrong apparently 2016-06-13T14:36:30Z jackdaniel: thanks 2016-06-13T14:37:01Z jdz: glad to be of no help! 2016-06-13T14:37:34Z jackdaniel: heheh ^_^ 2016-06-13T14:37:58Z jackdaniel: thanks for you attention, time and will to help, to be more precise :) 2016-06-13T14:41:58Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-13T14:42:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-13T14:43:21Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:43:34Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:47:24Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:47:37Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:48:11Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-06-13T14:48:11Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:51:41Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:52:23Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:52:23Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-06-13T14:52:23Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-06-13T14:53:24Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-06-13T14:53:57Z allezbluez quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-13T14:59:28Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-13T15:01:42Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:02:33Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T15:04:02Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:06:04Z wormer23 joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:07:25Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T15:15:25Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:15:34Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-13T15:15:58Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:20:01Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:25:02Z przl joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:25:53Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:26:51Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:26:57Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:26:57Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2016-06-13T15:26:58Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:27:41Z nell joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:29:55Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:31:06Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-06-13T15:31:34Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-13T15:35:51Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:36:03Z allezbluez joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:40:21Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:42:40Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:44:21Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:44:33Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-13T15:45:26Z nell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T15:49:05Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:50:03Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:54:37Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-06-13T15:57:38Z allezbluez quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T15:57:52Z jasom: css-lite is mediocre 2016-06-13T15:58:24Z jasom: unlike cl-who, it provides no mechanism for inserting arbitrary CL code in the middle of your CS 2016-06-13T15:58:34Z allezbluez joined #lisp 2016-06-13T15:59:59Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:00:44Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:01:35Z jasom: part of the issue is that CSS doesn't naturally nest the way SGML based languages do, so the sexpr->css mapping is a lot less natural than the sexpr->html mapping 2016-06-13T16:05:21Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:07:30Z p_l: maybe that's the issue - doing a mapping instead of compiler? :) 2016-06-13T16:09:25Z Grue`: CSS doesn't nest, but LESS does ;) 2016-06-13T16:09:53Z jasom: p_l: a compiler is a mapping from source to output. 2016-06-13T16:10:10Z zdm joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:10:22Z zdm quit (Client Quit) 2016-06-13T16:10:42Z zdm joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:10:50Z p_l: jasom: technically (best kind of) correct - in this case, though, I've been thinking of mapping of S-expr to CSS without changing semantics vs. one that does use different semantics and thus can support nested code 2016-06-13T16:11:08Z jasom: p_l: both css-lite and lass do this 2016-06-13T16:11:20Z jasom: p_l: which were the two suggestions for shifty 2016-06-13T16:19:04Z robot quit (Quit: I guess that's how it's post to be.) 2016-06-13T16:21:22Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:21:28Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:21:36Z papachan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T16:25:08Z _paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-13T16:25:11Z paul0 joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:25:15Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:28:45Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:31:50Z peey joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:32:36Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:34:38Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-06-13T16:35:34Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:36:50Z peey: Hey folks, I made a macro for infix binary operations in lisp 2016-06-13T16:37:10Z peey: Would anyone like to see and give me suggestions? https://gist.github.com/peey/e9506663f7ed27eaac0cd7f3e5352bf2 http://i.imgur.com/Z1EhFjD.png 2016-06-13T16:37:54Z peey: I think it's better than the ways currently listed on cliki http://cliki.net/infix 2016-06-13T16:38:12Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:38:19Z shim quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:38:42Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:39:28Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:39:35Z phoe_krk: peey: turn it into a QL package and send it to Xach so he can Quicklisp it. 2016-06-13T16:40:18Z phoe_krk: optionally, make it expandable, so people can add more operators and/or alter their priority. 2016-06-13T16:40:38Z peey: Yeah but I haven't set up error handling etc yet. Wanted to know if it looks like it'll be an improvement on existing projects 2016-06-13T16:40:47Z phoe_krk: this might become a good base for a reader for infix-based programming languages. 2016-06-13T16:41:16Z peey: You think? : ) 2016-06-13T16:41:46Z phoe_krk: peey: no idea. it's said that everything was already written in lisp ten times and it's so easy to write it the eleventh time that we get the xkcd standards syndrome here all the time. 2016-06-13T16:41:50Z phoe_krk: peey: I think. 2016-06-13T16:42:00Z peey: :D 2016-06-13T16:42:07Z phoe_krk: obligatory xkcd link https://xkcd.com/927/ 2016-06-13T16:42:16Z HeyFlash quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:42:32Z shka joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:42:40Z peey: I'll search more on quicklisp about competing packages. I only checked out cliki 2016-06-13T16:42:46Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:43:23Z phoe_krk: peey: please do. 2016-06-13T16:43:36Z peey: If anyone's interested in the subject of infix operations and could offer insight into what my code does better/worse than other solutions, please do check it and ping me! 2016-06-13T16:44:44Z phoe_krk: And if there's no feasible de-facto standard for it, create your own and fill the blank. 2016-06-13T16:45:31Z peey: It's not a reader macro. Regular macro. Brackets are treated as lisp forms so very easy to reason about. You can just ($ ($ 1 + 2 + (max 3 4)) / 9), where $ is what I named the macro. 2016-06-13T16:45:35Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-13T16:46:01Z phoe_krk: And if there's a feasible de-facto standard for it, poke your nose into it, check how it works and use your insight and the codebase of both projects to improve the state of art. 2016-06-13T16:46:13Z phoe_krk: peey: I noticed. Sounds rather cool. 2016-06-13T16:46:30Z peey: That's why I shared! Alright. Will check quicklisp now :) 2016-06-13T16:46:37Z vaitel_ joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:46:47Z phoe_krk: peey: oh. Common Lisp division operators. 2016-06-13T16:47:08Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-06-13T16:47:08Z peey: What about them? 2016-06-13T16:47:57Z reepca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T16:48:00Z phoe_krk: /, floor, ceiling, truncate, round. 2016-06-13T16:48:11Z phoe_krk: There are many ways to divide numbers in Common Lisp. 2016-06-13T16:48:12Z reepca joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:48:37Z phoe_krk: You might want to include them where you include the / division. 2016-06-13T16:48:45Z phoe_krk: Like - at the same priority. 2016-06-13T16:49:15Z peey: I don't get it. Floor, ceiling are functions of one variable. How can you use them for divison? 2016-06-13T16:49:27Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:49:33Z vaitel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:49:37Z allezbluez quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:49:38Z phoe_krk: clhs floor 2016-06-13T16:49:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm 2016-06-13T16:50:00Z phoe_krk: Common Lisp has these covered.~ 2016-06-13T16:50:06Z dlowe: they are not functions of one variable 2016-06-13T16:50:20Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T16:50:38Z peey: Also, are symbols of external packages mutable? I was counting on people resetting the *operator-precedence-alist* symbol as a way of personalizing the operator precedence 2016-06-13T16:50:57Z Xach: peey: it is common to rebind those kinds of special variables 2016-06-13T16:51:04Z Xach: peey: and set them 2016-06-13T16:51:36Z phoe_krk: peey: can I add my own operator in there by just adding it to the alist? 2016-06-13T16:51:55Z phoe_krk: Like, by pushing (foo . 999) in there ? 2016-06-13T16:52:01Z peey: Yes you can 2016-06-13T16:52:06Z phoe_krk: Yay! 2016-06-13T16:52:07Z peey: You just mutate the alist 2016-06-13T16:52:12Z phoe_krk: Then it's the proper way.. 2016-06-13T16:52:41Z dlowe is now known as all 2016-06-13T16:52:49Z all is now known as dlowe 2016-06-13T16:52:57Z peey: I didn't know floor could take an optional divisior! Will add those to the operator list then 2016-06-13T16:54:02Z arbv quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.1) 2016-06-13T16:54:17Z peey: What the macro will do is just turn (1 foo 2) to (foo 1 2) wherever it sees it, according to precedence ofc. 2016-06-13T16:55:07Z djinni` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-13T16:55:17Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-13T16:55:22Z mrcom_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-06-13T16:55:37Z phoe_krk: Which is what infix operators should do. 2016-06-13T16:57:58Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T16:58:20Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:58:31Z Grue`: honestly "($ ($ 1 + 2 + (max 3 4)) / 9)" looks worse to me than any of the alternatives of writing this formula 2016-06-13T16:59:36Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-06-13T16:59:42Z peey: Yeah, the additional $ looks weird for grouping 2016-06-13T17:00:08Z peey: But what it does is when it encounters a paranthesis it does not treat it as a grouping, but as a lisp form 2016-06-13T17:00:21Z przl joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:00:48Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T17:00:54Z didi joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:01:39Z peey: So you can have anything in there. If you choose to use a ($ ...) expression that just means you can enter another infixed expression in those brackets. 2016-06-13T17:01:53Z Grue`: the macro could check if inner expression starts with something that's not a function and treat it as infix sub-sxpression 2016-06-13T17:02:21Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:02:29Z peey: True, that's an option 2016-06-13T17:02:48Z d4ryus is now known as Guest79135 2016-06-13T17:02:48Z Guest79135 quit (Killed (leguin.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-06-13T17:02:49Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:03:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:03:01Z peey: I'll try it and see if it gives any troubles! thanks 2016-06-13T17:04:20Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:07:33Z rm34D` joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:09:04Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-13T17:10:00Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-13T17:10:28Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:10:40Z rm34D quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-06-13T17:11:12Z lpgl joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:13:41Z wormer23 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-06-13T17:15:08Z nell joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:17:31Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:19:04Z unbalancedparen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-13T17:20:11Z przl joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:23:27Z lpgl quit (Quit: bye.) 2016-06-13T17:23:36Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:25:41Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:27:40Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-13T17:28:07Z bullets: hi 2016-06-13T17:29:02Z DougCL joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:30:24Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:32:33Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-13T17:33:32Z knicklux joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:33:58Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:34:31Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:36:06Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-06-13T17:38:42Z wgslayer quit (Quit: wgslayer) 2016-06-13T17:38:53Z DougCL quit 2016-06-13T17:38:56Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T17:39:01Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T17:39:44Z vaitel__ joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:40:22Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:40:57Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:41:59Z vaitel__ is now known as vaitel 2016-06-13T17:42:33Z vaitel_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-13T17:44:13Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-06-13T17:46:00Z adhoc joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:49:00Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-13T17:49:14Z wgslayer quit (Quit: wgslayer) 2016-06-13T17:51:14Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:53:10Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-06-13T17:56:42Z DavidGuru quit (Client Quit) 2016-06-13T17:58:19Z djinni` joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:00:12Z JuanDaugherty: yello bullets 2016-06-13T18:03:00Z strykerkkd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-13T18:03:51Z unbalancedparen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-06-13T18:05:07Z peey: Is there a way to check if a list is a valid lisp form? 2016-06-13T18:05:47Z DrCode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T18:05:53Z Xach: peey: I can't think of a concise definition of "valid" for that situation. Did you have a particular definition in mind? 2016-06-13T18:06:02Z Xach: peey: Like, you can pass it to eval and it won't error, or something? 2016-06-13T18:06:07Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T18:06:26Z peey: for example '(1 2 3) clearly isn't, 1 isn't allowed as a variable name of a function or macro, but '(max 1 2) is 2016-06-13T18:06:40Z Zotan joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:06:50Z whartung quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T18:06:52Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-06-13T18:06:58Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:07:03Z Xach: peey: is (qrxmlq 1 2) valid by that definition? 2016-06-13T18:07:08Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:07:13Z peey: Nope 2016-06-13T18:07:20Z peey: Is checking if (quote (first given-list)) is macro or a function sufficient? 2016-06-13T18:08:01Z Xach: peey: special operator would be required, too. but you'd also want to make sure it's a proper list. 2016-06-13T18:08:16Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:08:33Z peey: That can be done by listp I guess 2016-06-13T18:08:47Z whartung joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:09:20Z wccoder joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:09:46Z Xach: peey: No. 2016-06-13T18:09:53Z Xach: If object is a cons, listp does not check whether object is a proper list; it returns true for any kind of list. 2016-06-13T18:10:09Z Xach: list-length checks, though. 2016-06-13T18:10:18Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-06-13T18:10:38Z peey: Alright. How would I check for special operators though? 2016-06-13T18:11:04Z bullets: special-operator-p 2016-06-13T18:11:07Z peey: For macro there is macro-function, for functions a functionp 2016-06-13T18:11:29Z peey: That's what I was looking for. Thanks bullets 2016-06-13T18:11:32Z bullets: and (eq 'lambda ... ) because lambda is not a special operator 2016-06-13T18:11:36Z adhoc joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:12:48Z bullets: funny subtleties of the language, lambda is... read syntax? 2016-06-13T18:12:58Z bullets: (is it guys?) 2016-06-13T18:13:09Z peey: functions, macros, special operators, lambda, have we covered all bases yet? 2016-06-13T18:13:26Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:13:39Z pjb: peey: (defun possibly-a-valid-form-p (object) (or (atom object) (and (atom (car object)) (or (fboundp (car object)) (macro-function (car object)) (special-operator-p (car object)))) (and (eq 'lambda (caar object)) (listp (cadar object))))) 2016-06-13T18:13:45Z wccoder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-13T18:14:32Z peey: Where is that from? 2016-06-13T18:14:33Z pjb: peey: you would want to actually macroexpand macros and check the expanded form, to check the function argument forms, and to special case each special operator, including the lambda expression. 2016-06-13T18:14:40Z pjb: peey: from my brains. 2016-06-13T18:14:43Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:14:51Z pjb: peey: I'm a *programmer*. 2016-06-13T18:15:06Z peey: Gotcha. Thought you were quoting a library. 2016-06-13T18:15:18Z Xach: lambda is a macro. 2016-06-13T18:15:40Z pjb: Xach: I mean ((lambda (x) …) arg) 2016-06-13T18:15:55Z peey: I thought http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm#macro-function would suffice for checking if the first element is a macro? 2016-06-13T18:16:23Z phoe_krk: If you're doing this sort of mental exercise, I say, you're doing something wrong on a lower level. 2016-06-13T18:16:32Z pjb: but a lisp form can be an atom, a function call, a special form, or a macro form. 2016-06-13T18:16:38Z phoe_krk: What do you need "valid lisp forms" for? 2016-06-13T18:16:49Z TMA: bullets: lambda is a macro (defmacro lambda (&whole whole lambda-list &body forms) `#',whole) ;; additionally (lambda args body) is a valid list that you can put into a function position 2016-06-13T18:16:57Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:17:05Z phoe_krk: Also - if the reader doesn't choke on it, then I say that it's a valid Lisp form. 2016-06-13T18:17:12Z pjb: Valid lisp form would be a form that would not signal a program-error when evaluated. 2016-06-13T18:17:18Z DrCode joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:17:28Z cmos joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:17:42Z phoe_krk: Are we writing a demievaluator? 2016-06-13T18:17:44Z wildlander quit (Client Quit) 2016-06-13T18:18:32Z phoe_krk: Because this will need to take all sorts of macros and symbol-macros into account. 2016-06-13T18:18:34Z peey: phoe_krk: I'm trying to see if I could implement it so that my infix macro could tell if the list (4 + 5) in ($ (4 + 5) / 9) should be treated as lisp form to be evaluated or grouping 2016-06-13T18:19:07Z phoe_krk: peey: I say, check cars of each list. If the symbol is on the list of allowed operators, feel free to destructure it into infix; otherwise, don't touch it., 2016-06-13T18:19:28Z phoe_krk: I don't think you want to actually chew on the whole evaluation scheme of Common Lisp (pun intended). 2016-06-13T18:19:42Z phoe_krk: wait wait. 2016-06-13T18:19:44Z phoe_krk: You're not doing cars. 2016-06-13T18:19:48Z Grue`: the set of allowed cars is infinite 2016-06-13T18:20:00Z phoe_krk: You're doing elements in the middle. 2016-06-13T18:20:05Z peey: I won't. I just asked so I might discover if lisp had a magical form-p that I was unaware of. 2016-06-13T18:20:31Z bullets: damn I always thought lambda was a primitive 2016-06-13T18:20:32Z pjb: peey: check again my possibly-a-valid-form-p. 2016-06-13T18:20:45Z bullets: so... what really happens to the lambdas? 2016-06-13T18:20:50Z phoe_krk: clhs lambda 2016-06-13T18:20:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm 2016-06-13T18:20:58Z phoe_krk: lambda is a macro *and* a symbol. 2016-06-13T18:20:59Z pjb: peey: the toplevel test is (or (atom x) (consp x)) This is identical to T: (defun formp (x) t) 2016-06-13T18:21:02Z peey: pjb: will run it against different forms. Even though I don't understand it 2016-06-13T18:21:03Z phoe_krk: and the macro actually expands to a symbol. 2016-06-13T18:21:05Z pjb: peey: you can pass any lisp obejct to EVAL. 2016-06-13T18:21:34Z bullets: phoe_krk: to a symbol? 2016-06-13T18:21:40Z phoe_krk: dlkfldskf 2016-06-13T18:21:42Z bullets: I'm very much confus now 2016-06-13T18:21:43Z phoe_krk: A form containing a symbol. 2016-06-13T18:22:03Z pjb: bullets: there are two cases: (CL:FUNCTION (CL:LAMBDA (…) …)) where CL:FUNCTION is the special operator, and CL:LAMBDA is a symbol, and ((CL:LAMBDA (…) …) …) where CL:LAMBDA is a symbol. 2016-06-13T18:22:24Z pjb: the first is a special form, and the second is an anonymous function call. 2016-06-13T18:22:27Z bullets: oh I think I get it now 2016-06-13T18:22:36Z peey: pjb: gives error The value 2 is not of type (OR CONS SYMBOL) when I try (possibly-a-valid-form-p '(2 + 3)) 2016-06-13T18:22:43Z bullets: yes I'd read that (lambda ...) expands to #'(lambda ..) 2016-06-13T18:22:45Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T18:22:52Z pjb: peey: I wrote atom, not symbolp 2016-06-13T18:22:55Z bullets: so actually the #' is what creates the function? 2016-06-13T18:23:08Z pjb: peey: are you using Common Lisp? We're discussing Common Lisp here. 2016-06-13T18:23:16Z peey: Yep. common lisp. sbcl 2016-06-13T18:23:48Z peey: pjb: I used this definition : (defun possibly-a-valid-form-p (object) (or (atom object) (and (atom (car object)) (or (fboundp (car object)) (macro-function (car object)) (special-operator-p (car object)))) (and (eq 'lambda (caar object)) (listp (cadar object))))) 2016-06-13T18:23:58Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:24:04Z pjb: bullets: well, CL:FUNCTION, (CL:COERCE x 'CL:FUNCTION) CL:COMPILE, and CL:EVAL can create functions. 2016-06-13T18:24:46Z pjb: peey: Then I was wrong,t he second ATOM must be SYMBOLP: (and (SYMBOLP (car object)) 2016-06-13T18:25:05Z bullets: pjb thanks, I learned something today 2016-06-13T18:25:11Z bullets: time to slack off the rest of the day 2016-06-13T18:27:28Z peey: pjb: so it becomes (defun possibly-a-valid-form-p (object) (or (atom object) (and (symbolp (car object)) (or (fboundp (car object)) (macro-function (car object)) (special-operator-p (car object)))) (and (eq 'lambda (caar object)) (listp (cadar object))))) ? 2016-06-13T18:28:53Z pjb: yes. 2016-06-13T18:28:55Z Bike: probably you'd want to check consp first in the second part of that... 2016-06-13T18:29:18Z pjb: Bike: that's not necessary: atom and consp are complementary. 2016-06-13T18:29:38Z Bike: oh. wait, yes, my mistake 2016-06-13T18:29:42Z pjb: This is why there's no atom in scheme. 2016-06-13T18:29:47Z peey: Gives an error The value 2 is not of type LIST. when I try (possibly-a-valid-form-p '(2 + 3)) 2016-06-13T18:30:25Z Xach: peey: that's because you try CAAR without testing LISTP. 2016-06-13T18:30:39Z pjb: peey: then consp should be tested in (and (consp (car object)) (eq 'lambda (caar object)) (listp (cadar object))) 2016-06-13T18:31:06Z peey: What would be the final expression? 2016-06-13T18:31:10Z pjb: (defun possibly-a-valid-form-p (object) (or (atom object) (and (symbolp (car object)) (or (fboundp (car object)) (macro-function (car object)) (special-operator-p (car object)))) (and (consp (car object)) (eq 'lambda (caar object)) (listp (cadar object))))) 2016-06-13T18:31:57Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:32:26Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-13T18:32:56Z peey: That works. Unsure why. 2016-06-13T18:33:05Z Grue`: clhs symbol-function 2016-06-13T18:33:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_1.htm 2016-06-13T18:33:11Z Grue`: peey: you can use this instead 2016-06-13T18:33:17Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-06-13T18:33:32Z Grue`: it actually returns non-nil value for special operators and macros 2016-06-13T18:33:38Z Grue`: at least in sbcl 2016-06-13T18:33:49Z paul0 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2016-06-13T18:33:50Z pjb: peey: indent it nicely, then read the clhs chapter 3 (notably section 3.1). 2016-06-13T18:34:03Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-06-13T18:34:49Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:34:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:35:13Z Grue`: so basically there are two cases: it's a symbol and symbol-function is not nil, and it's a list and its car is lanbda 2016-06-13T18:35:23Z Grue`: *lambda 2016-06-13T18:36:13Z adhoc joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:36:19Z Grue`: though it might not work in case of flet or macrolet 2016-06-13T18:36:30Z gingerale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T18:36:41Z reepca` joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:37:02Z phoe_krk: Grue`: for lexical stuff, you need a codewalker. 2016-06-13T18:37:26Z peey: What is the shortcoming of just testing (or (functionp (first form)) (macro-function (first form)) (special-operator-p (first form)) provided that form is a list and not a cons? 2016-06-13T18:37:44Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:37:56Z phoe_krk: a list and not a cons? 2016-06-13T18:38:07Z phoe_krk: therefore... 2016-06-13T18:38:09Z phoe_krk: it must be a NIL! 2016-06-13T18:38:12Z phoe_krk: which is trivial. 2016-06-13T18:38:54Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:39:04Z phoe_krk: (LISTP X) means, (OR (CONSP X) (NULL X)). 2016-06-13T18:39:07Z Grue`: oh wait, it doesn't return nil if it's not a function, it throws an error 2016-06-13T18:39:11Z peey: I meant that it doesn't have a dot so it could be a valid form 2016-06-13T18:39:14Z Bike: assuming you got that backwards, it doesn't detect lambda forms. not that those are very common, but ((lambda (...) ...) ...) is a valid form. 2016-06-13T18:39:25Z Grue`: also a function name can be (setf foo) 2016-06-13T18:39:33Z phoe_krk: Bike: unmatched parens 2016-06-13T18:39:39Z Bike: work it out. 2016-06-13T18:39:59Z Grue`: too many corner cases 2016-06-13T18:40:01Z Bike: well, of course it also doesn't work because (functionp 'car) is nil. 2016-06-13T18:40:13Z peey: (functionp '(setf nth)) returns nil. Interesting 2016-06-13T18:40:31Z Bike: which is why pjb used fboundp. 2016-06-13T18:40:54Z reepca quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-06-13T18:40:57Z zdm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T18:41:15Z peey: I'll study pjb's function and chapter 3 of clhs as he suggested, then 2016-06-13T18:41:42Z Grue`: fboundp also doesn't work with flet 2016-06-13T18:42:14Z zdm joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:43:11Z p_l: people who make linked lists deceptively similar to CONS cells then introduce a badly-visible tail optimization should be hanged 2016-06-13T18:43:19Z Bike: if i was you, i'd just have an "escape" symbol for your infixing. something like ($ (4 + (¥ (funcall #'thunk)) + 5)). 2016-06-13T18:44:26Z peey: I do that already. You "escape" whatever you want infixed and any other list is treated as a lisp form. 2016-06-13T18:45:14Z Bike: i mean the ¥. since it sounds like you want to allow forms inside the infixed form to be non-infixed. 2016-06-13T18:45:27Z Grue`: another option is to expand (foo bar baz) into (handler-case (foo bar baz) (error (blah) )) 2016-06-13T18:46:11Z Bike: i.e., you said you want this "so that my infix macro could tell if the list (4 + 5) in ($ (4 + 5) / 9) should be treated as a lisp form"; this rule is "if it starts with ¥ use the value as a lisp form, otherwise it's still infix" 2016-06-13T18:46:32Z peey: Grue` A function name can be setf foo, but you can't use that in a form, can you? you'll do (setf (.....)) but setf is detected by macro-function 2016-06-13T18:46:50Z peey: can be (setf foo)* 2016-06-13T18:46:52Z Bike: you cannot do ((setf foo) ...), no 2016-06-13T18:47:30Z peey: Yep. So that's no worries for (defun form-p (form) (or (functionp (first form)) (macro-function (first form)) (special-operator-p (first form)))) 2016-06-13T18:48:05Z Bike: functionp is still wrong and that still doesn't allow lambda forms 2016-06-13T18:49:15Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:49:15Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-06-13T18:49:17Z Bike: functionp is "is this object a function". macro-function and special-operator-p are (for your purposes) "does this object name a macro/special operator" 2016-06-13T18:49:56Z Grue`: I didn't know you can't do ((setf foo)...) [never tried that]. (funcall #'(setf foo) ...) works though 2016-06-13T18:50:00Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:50:00Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-06-13T18:50:31Z nzambe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-13T18:51:34Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:51:44Z peey: Is funcall a special operator? 2016-06-13T18:52:08Z Bike: no, it is a function. 2016-06-13T18:52:23Z Bike: names a function, i guess i should say 2016-06-13T18:52:27Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:53:39Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:54:14Z lambdamonad joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:56:20Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-13T18:58:35Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-06-13T18:59:20Z bullets quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-06-13T18:59:58Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-13T19:01:08Z peey: pjb: In your funtion, the last of the 3 or'd expression checks for a valid lambda form, correct? And the first one should really be converted to an if condition, right? 2016-06-13T19:01:43Z adhoc joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:03:10Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T19:06:44Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:09:01Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:09:05Z peey: Oh. atoms are considered forms. so compound form without it. Thanks pjb, I finally understood your function! 2016-06-13T19:09:45Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-06-13T19:12:03Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T19:12:06Z cvoxel joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:12:23Z emaczen: How do you use &env in macros do get the lexically scoped bindings? 2016-06-13T19:12:39Z emaczen: to get& 2016-06-13T19:12:41Z emaczen: to get* 2016-06-13T19:13:16Z Bike: you can't 2016-06-13T19:13:35Z emaczen: What do you use &env for then? 2016-06-13T19:13:53Z Bike: stuff that's available at macroexpansion time. macro-function usually. 2016-06-13T19:14:02Z Bike: clhs macro-function 2016-06-13T19:14:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm 2016-06-13T19:14:04Z Bike: has an example 2016-06-13T19:16:22Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-06-13T19:20:35Z paule32 joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:21:06Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:23:00Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-13T19:23:04Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-13T19:25:16Z adhoc joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:27:10Z emaczen: Bike: My issue is that I am either evaluating all elements of a list argument or none -- how do I selectively pick which elements to quote? 2016-06-13T19:28:10Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-06-13T19:28:18Z emaczen: conditionally might be a better word 2016-06-13T19:30:39Z emaczen: I could write a read-macro to write commas in front of certain list elements, but that seems messy 2016-06-13T19:32:15Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-13T19:32:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-13T19:35:37Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-06-13T19:35:39Z setheus joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:36:28Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:37:13Z pjb: emaczen: you should gather the list of CL functions taking an environment parameter, it's interesting. Of course, macroexpand is first, but it's not alone. Notably, find-class (you can have lexical classes!) 2016-06-13T19:38:24Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:38:47Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T19:39:44Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:40:05Z dmiles: xcl might be the easiest lisp to embed into a C++ app 2016-06-13T19:40:07Z jasom: and get-setf-expansion of course 2016-06-13T19:41:04Z jasom: I had forgotten about xcl 2016-06-13T19:42:00Z barbone joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:42:48Z dmiles: yeah.. though it might need some catchup to ABCL 2016-06-13T19:42:51Z warweasle quit (Quit: home) 2016-06-13T19:43:10Z dmiles: since ABCL got a few improvments since they forked 2016-06-13T19:43:22Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-06-13T19:43:22Z wgslayer quit (Quit: wgslayer) 2016-06-13T19:43:54Z dmiles: (ABCL and XCL was created from the same codebase) 2016-06-13T19:43:56Z jasom: does xcl have an interpreter-only mode for archs other than x86? 2016-06-13T19:43:57Z pjb: If by chance somebody has worked with clicc, and found this bug, while compiling the runtime (with ask-runtime): "Error: A call to CONS should have at most 2 arguments." It's due to the fact that (eq (cdr (get-operator-def 'list*)) (cdr (get-operator-def 'cons))) ; Where is LIST* entered in the global environment? I cannot find that. :-( 2016-06-13T19:44:33Z dmiles: xcl did for a while work in interpred only mode 2016-06-13T19:44:55Z jasom: because if so, it might be portable to emscripten since it uses C++ exceptions for stack unwinding 2016-06-13T19:45:10Z dmiles: it would be yes 2016-06-13T19:45:10Z jasom: and the bdwgc for garbage collection 2016-06-13T19:45:45Z dmiles: sometimes people in here think i must be crazy to think an interpred CL is a good idea 2016-06-13T19:45:48Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-13T19:46:01Z dmiles: but i think you are giving good examples why we want it 2016-06-13T19:46:05Z emaczen: pjb: How exactly does find-class use the environment argument? 2016-06-13T19:46:18Z dmiles: (to jasom) 2016-06-13T19:46:38Z jasom: dmiles: even sbcl has put work into improving its interpreter for cases where compilation overhead would be greater than eval overhead 2016-06-13T19:47:22Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:47:29Z dmiles: jasom: yeah.. btw both XCL and ABCL used to run all the testing in modes that the entire system library was interpred instead of compiled 2016-06-13T19:47:46Z adhoc joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:48:14Z dmiles: so tests had to be passed with interpreted library with comnpiled test code well had a 4 part test matrix 2016-06-13T19:48:27Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T19:48:59Z dmiles: interp OR compiled library + interp OR library testcode 2016-06-13T19:49:07Z jasom: dmiles: I did find a completely interpreted CL implemented in C, but it was too buggy to port and I didn't have time to fix it. 2016-06-13T19:49:13Z pjb: emaczen: it finds the class name in the specified environment. The question is how can you bind a class name locally? 2016-06-13T19:49:18Z dmiles: i been whining for 10 years that i want ABCL to continue that matrix :P 2016-06-13T19:49:44Z dmiles: (to easye) 2016-06-13T19:50:04Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/eclipse-lisp <-- there is some of my work, fwiw 2016-06-13T19:50:31Z emaczen: pjb: I'm not even sure what an environment variable looks like. I don't recall a (current-environment) function. 2016-06-13T19:50:33Z jasom: it doesn't help that emscripten is hideously strict when it comes to function prototypes matching function calls. 2016-06-13T19:50:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:50:46Z jasom: emaczen: environments are 100% opaque in CL 2016-06-13T19:50:46Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-06-13T19:51:20Z emaczen: opaque? I've heard the term but that's it. 2016-06-13T19:51:21Z jasom: emaczen: all you can do is pass the one you got on to something else. You usually get the environment in a macro function (I don't recall if there are other ways to get it) 2016-06-13T19:51:51Z emaczen: So macros implicitly have access to their environments? 2016-06-13T19:51:53Z jasom: emaczen: opaque literally means "cant see through it" and in this case it's figurative to mean that nothing about the internals is specified 2016-06-13T19:52:04Z dmiles: jasom there are a few ways to smoopth out that strictness 2016-06-13T19:52:05Z jasom: emaczen: with the &env parameter 2016-06-13T19:52:43Z jasom: emaczen: this is important if e.g. you want to get a setf expansion, which might be different in the lexical environment at runtime than the macroexpand time environment 2016-06-13T19:53:08Z jasom: dmiles: I applied a lot of them and got pretty far (I also fixed all the code so that all functions were prototyped) 2016-06-13T19:53:41Z emaczen: jasom: Okay, thanks for the info 2016-06-13T19:54:00Z dmiles: jasom: awesome 2016-06-13T19:55:51Z jasom: emaczen: a good example of how you might use it is if you are implementing a DSL and want to be able to expand CL macros in your code; you pass the environment you got into macroexpand. 2016-06-13T19:56:14Z wgslayer quit (Quit: wgslayer) 2016-06-13T19:56:43Z dmiles: jasom: have you been working on making it pass the cl-ansi? 2016-06-13T19:57:02Z stepnem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T19:57:06Z jasom: dmiles: hah, I was hoping to get a REPL. Never got that far. 2016-06-13T19:58:00Z jasom: ran into an issue I spent 20 hours on with zero progress; I didn't have time to dissect the C code to understand all of it, and I couldn't tell if it was a problem with the C code or emscripten due to that. Also javascript debug tools are painful on large codebases. 2016-06-13T19:59:14Z cebreidian quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-13T20:00:07Z dmiles: hrm i guess it will be a descision whether to use EclipseCL or XCL... for me i want to embed one of them in SWI/YAP-Prolog 2016-06-13T20:00:54Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-13T20:03:09Z Bike: emaczen: i'm not sure i understand w hat environments have to do with your q uoting problem. 2016-06-13T20:03:40Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:04:38Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:08:01Z emaczen: Bike: one sc 2016-06-13T20:08:03Z emaczen: one second 2016-06-13T20:08:13Z jasom: dmiles: I will be surprised if XCL is more buggy than EclipseCL 2016-06-13T20:08:30Z didi left #lisp 2016-06-13T20:09:32Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:09:57Z Neet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-13T20:11:15Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-06-13T20:11:21Z emaczen: Bike: I'm going to make a paste... 2016-06-13T20:11:26Z Neet joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:11:27Z Bike: ok. 2016-06-13T20:12:22Z adhoc joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:13:20Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-13T20:15:13Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:15:34Z emaczen: Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/+6TLB 2016-06-13T20:15:42Z emaczen: Bike: Let me know if you have questions 2016-06-13T20:17:27Z coyo joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:17:27Z coyo quit (Changing host) 2016-06-13T20:17:27Z coyo joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:17:29Z Bike: okay, so, select is defined so that the select form expands into something like (progn ... (where '(:= :organization :name)) ...)? 2016-06-13T20:17:46Z Bike: maybe where has other arguments, i don't know, not important. 2016-06-13T20:18:06Z emaczen: Yes, except name is not a keyword 2016-06-13T20:18:13Z Bike: er, typo, yes. 2016-06-13T20:18:42Z grimsley joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:18:52Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-06-13T20:19:05Z Bike: and you need the where function to "evaluate" that in some way, and you wanted that way to include "name" being evaluated as a regular lisp form in the surrounding environment, so you thought you'd pass in the environment. yeah, i see what you want, lemme think... 2016-06-13T20:20:08Z Bike: what i'd usually want to do is just pass WHERE the result of a regular form. Like, in this case I'd want the expansion to look like (where (list := :organization name)), which would do what you want. 2016-06-13T20:20:30Z Bike: Is the format of things you can pass to WHERE simple enough that just doing (list ,@where) is reasonable? 2016-06-13T20:21:36Z emaczen: Bike: No, it can only be evaluated by the where method 2016-06-13T20:21:54Z emaczen: elements in the 'where' list that is. 2016-06-13T20:22:24Z Bike: I mean, := and :organization are lisp constants. 2016-06-13T20:22:58Z Bike: So (list := :organization name) evaluates to (:= :organization "some name") and that's what WHERE sees, which is what you want. 2016-06-13T20:23:02Z emaczen: Bike: I'll add another example to the paste. 2016-06-13T20:23:38Z emaczen: Bike: This case seems to work fine, but others won't 2016-06-13T20:23:51Z Bike: so the format is more complicated. 2016-06-13T20:24:19Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-06-13T20:25:41Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:26:07Z emaczen: Bike: I just added a different format 2016-06-13T20:26:19Z peey: Could if be implemented as a macro without having to use special operators? (if cond thenbody elsebody) -> (or (and cond thenbody) elsebody) 2016-06-13T20:26:54Z emaczen: Bike: andp is a functional equivalent of the and macro 2016-06-13T20:27:00Z emaczen: not-equal is (not (equal)) 2016-06-13T20:27:21Z Bike: peey: yeah, but OR and AND are probably defined in terms of if. 2016-06-13T20:27:55Z peey: Oh. Makes sense. 2016-06-13T20:29:04Z emaczen: Bike: ammount should be a keyword -- oops 2016-06-13T20:29:08Z emaczen: Let me say one more thing 2016-06-13T20:29:21Z Bike: well, the point is that it's a whole nestable DSL, i get that. 2016-06-13T20:30:03Z strykerkkd joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:30:05Z emaczen: Bike: the keywords in the where clauses (where it makes sense) are column-names of a table, so the where method gets the values of these column-names for each row. 2016-06-13T20:30:18Z emaczen: So I can't do (list ,@where) 2016-06-13T20:30:57Z Bike: it wouldn't work even for a simpler thing like (andp (not-equal :category name)), so sure. 2016-06-13T20:31:05Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T20:32:27Z Bike: anyway. There is no way for you to pass an 'environment' containing the binding for name. Your implementation likely has no such object at any time (adding it kind of plays hell with really basic optimizations - can't put much of anything on the control stack, and so on) 2016-06-13T20:33:07Z emaczen: Bike: any solutions? 2016-06-13T20:33:21Z Grue`: seems like common lisp expressions and sql expressions are mixed up too much in this dsl and I can't even tell which is which 2016-06-13T20:33:58Z Grue`: like, in postmodern, sql expressions always start with a keyword so you know it's not a real lisp function 2016-06-13T20:34:11Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-13T20:34:11Z Bike: how you usually do this is like i was trying to suggest, you expand in such a way that 'name' or whatever is just normally evaluated. but in your case that's quite complicated to do 2016-06-13T20:35:24Z Bike: it's probably still possible, you just need a more involved helper function depending on the features of the DSL 2016-06-13T20:35:50Z adhoc joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:37:11Z paul0 joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:38:30Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T20:38:56Z emaczen: Bike: any starting points? I've been thinking about this for awhile... I was thinking about looking at each symbol in the 'where' tree and placing a comma there or not placing a comma there -- make sense? 2016-06-13T20:39:07Z Bike: is it yes, that's basically what i mean. 2016-06-13T20:39:10Z emaczen: The criteria could be determined with DSL syntax I guess 2016-06-13T20:41:10Z Bike: Like, say your DSL grammar is that a form is either a constant, a symbol, or (function-name form*). then you would have something like (defun escape (dsl-form) (typecase dsl-form (symbol dsl-form) (cons (list* 'list (list 'quote (first dsl-form)) (mapcar #'escape (rest dsl-form)))) (t dsl-form)) 2016-06-13T20:41:26Z unrahul joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:43:05Z Bike: then (escape '(:= :organization :name)) => (list ':= :organization name), (escape '(andp (not-equal :category category))) => (list 'andp (list 'not-equal :category category)) 2016-06-13T20:43:19Z Bike: i.e., a form that evaluates normally into something you can pass on. 2016-06-13T20:45:35Z Bike: make sense? 2016-06-13T20:48:51Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-13T20:48:54Z emaczen: Bike: Yes, I should be able to figure this out and hopefully not run into other issues 2016-06-13T20:49:26Z vaitel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-13T20:51:59Z peey: Is readme.txt used by the quicklisp system? If not, can I have a readme.md instead so documentation looks nicer on github homepage? 2016-06-13T20:52:16Z Xach: peey: Some form of readme is fine. .txt is not required. 2016-06-13T20:52:27Z peey: Thanks! 2016-06-13T20:53:35Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-13T20:54:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:55:16Z adhoc joined #lisp 2016-06-13T20:57:00Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-13T20:59:58Z peey: Using defpackage, what happens if names of two packages that I want to depend on are same? If there isn't a way to solve this conflict, what's the naming convention for packages so that package names may not conflict? 2016-06-13T21:00:21Z peey: resolve* this conflict 2016-06-13T21:00:37Z phoe_krk: peey: is this a practical or theoretical question? 2016-06-13T21:00:38Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-06-13T21:00:44Z peey: Practical 2016-06-13T21:00:48Z phoe_krk: give me the examples 2016-06-13T21:01:40Z peey: I want to know if I should name my package :infix or :peey-infix in case there may already be an :infix that the person using my lib is using 2016-06-13T21:01:51Z peey: They wish to use both, let's assume. 2016-06-13T21:03:10Z phoe_krk: I'm not too competent with package name conflicts, but the general rule is: 2016-06-13T21:03:19Z phoe_krk: Lisp will perceive both as one package, called INFIX. 2016-06-13T21:03:32Z Bike: er, what. 2016-06-13T21:03:44Z peey: That I know 2016-06-13T21:03:51Z phoe_krk: When you go (in-package :infix) in one file and (in-package :infix) in the other, Lisp won't be able to tell the difference. 2016-06-13T21:03:57Z _death: clhs rename-package 2016-06-13T21:03:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rn_pkg.htm 2016-06-13T21:04:05Z peey: Is there a resolution strategy the user could use? 2016-06-13T21:04:26Z phoe_krk: Ayup - this one above. Although it's destructive, it's the only one that's feasible in case of such a naming conflict. 2016-06-13T21:04:36Z cmos quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-06-13T21:04:42Z Xach: peey: the user can avoid trying to use such poorly named projects. 2016-06-13T21:04:54Z Bike: peey: the package name thing is a real problem. some people use long identifiers with their names in them, you can do (ql:system-apropos "com.") to see some. 2016-06-13T21:05:05Z peey: So what's the convention? 2016-06-13T21:05:22Z phoe_krk: Reverse domain notation, as Bike suggested above. 2016-06-13T21:05:26Z Xach: peey: Give it a more creative name. 2016-06-13T21:05:30Z phoe_krk: Unique names. 2016-06-13T21:05:36Z Xach: reverse domain notation is something i dislike very much. 2016-06-13T21:05:44Z Grue`: the worst part that packages can have nicknames and they are usually short and the chance of them clashing increases exponentially 2016-06-13T21:06:08Z phoe_krk: Lisp doesn't have portable package nicknames. Which is a sad thing. 2016-06-13T21:06:21Z attila_lendvai: giving short nicknames to your CL packages is a very anti-social behavior 2016-06-13T21:06:48Z Grue`: their entire point is to be short though 2016-06-13T21:06:49Z phoe_krk: And Lisp probably won't have them unless two things happen. A) A person or a group of people from various implementations decide to implement them all at once, and B) a miracle happens anyway. 2016-06-13T21:07:07Z aeth: Just call the package foo-bar-baz and make sure you have foobarbaz.com registered. Not perfect, of course. And more expensive. It's preferable to reverse domain notation though imo. 2016-06-13T21:07:23Z aeth: Try to target for a memorable 10 or so letter .com domain that's two words paired. 2016-06-13T21:07:42Z phoe_krk: tenletters.com 2016-06-13T21:07:56Z peey: The reverse domain notation, do people generally own those domain names? Are they expected to resolve to a working website? e.g. com.mywebsite.lisp-packagename , I own mywebsite.com but don't have a lisp.mywebsite.com set up 2016-06-13T21:08:10Z aeth: phoe_krk: right, the only issue is that the package is ten-letters and the domain is tenletters 2016-06-13T21:08:16Z Xach: peey: no. 2016-06-13T21:08:20Z aeth: because hyphens in domains don't really work well and lack of hyphens in packages work even less 2016-06-13T21:08:26Z Xach: peey: you should own the domain but that's just a way to get a unique prefix. 2016-06-13T21:08:50Z peey: Alright thanks! 2016-06-13T21:08:53Z Xach: Reverse domain package names are, fortunately, rare in Common Lisp. 2016-06-13T21:09:19Z Xach: It is nicer to use a unique name through other prefixing (boring) or creativity (whee!) 2016-06-13T21:09:24Z peey: They are rare? So they are not the convention? 2016-06-13T21:09:52Z aeth: It's almost always .com and not e.g. .ninja (would you even recognize ninja.example.infix as a reverse domain?) so why bother with the com. part? 2016-06-13T21:10:03Z _death: usually I don't care much for long boring package names, as I use :import-from 2016-06-13T21:10:16Z Bike: there's certainly more packages not using reverse domain than using them 2016-06-13T21:11:04Z peey: Also, does quicklisp require that all packages on quicklisp have unique names? 2016-06-13T21:11:22Z phoe_krk: I think it needs to. 2016-06-13T21:11:34Z XachX_: peey: no 2016-06-13T21:11:48Z phoe_krk: XachX_: hum? How does it tell them apart then? 2016-06-13T21:11:52Z XachX_: peey: project and system names, yes. But not systems. 2016-06-13T21:11:53Z peey: Is this the same person replying? 2016-06-13T21:11:58Z phoe_krk: Oh - wait. 2016-06-13T21:12:09Z XachX_: peey: it is me. 2016-06-13T21:12:12Z phoe_krk: Right. It doesn't care about individual systems. 2016-06-13T21:13:06Z peey: So the :name in defsystem is required to be unique? 2016-06-13T21:13:11Z XachX_: Bordeaux threads and binary types both define a bt nickname. Which is bad but not detected and rejected by quicklisp. 2016-06-13T21:13:14Z XachX_: peey: yes. 2016-06-13T21:13:38Z peey: Is there any convention for that? or just creative long unique names? 2016-06-13T21:13:41Z aeth: If you're going to use a two letter nickname use one that's unlikely to have a collision 2016-06-13T21:13:55Z aeth: Or that won't be an issue if there is. e.g. gl in cl-opengl 2016-06-13T21:14:25Z _death: nicknames can be defined by users ("application developers") 2016-06-13T21:14:44Z Grue`: people really underutilize numbers in package names. for example I have a library called 0forms 2016-06-13T21:15:04Z peey: I'm glad it isn't called forms1 2016-06-13T21:15:15Z Grue`: generic name, but there's nothing else called 0forms 2016-06-13T21:15:28Z aeth: Grue`: the problem is, do I look for fiveam or 5am? etc 2016-06-13T21:15:32Z Grue`: most languages don't even allow names that start with numbers 2016-06-13T21:15:38Z aeth: there's a 1am and a fiveam... confusing 2016-06-13T21:16:08Z Bike: i assumed 1am was intended as a "reduced" 5am. 2016-06-13T21:16:13Z Grue`: fiveam and 5am should be nicknames 2016-06-13T21:16:17Z cvoxel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T21:16:37Z aeth: Grue`: you need to know the true name to get it from quicklisp, though, afaik 2016-06-13T21:16:39Z peey: Xach, XachX_: is there a naming convention to avoid conflicts on system names in quicklisp or should I just try for more unique names? 2016-06-13T21:17:07Z aeth: what's more confusing, though, is when the package doesn't even match with the system name 2016-06-13T21:17:12Z XachX_: peey: there is no convention. Creativity helps with uniqueness. 2016-06-13T21:17:20Z mejja joined #lisp 2016-06-13T21:17:24Z peey: Alright, thanks! 2016-06-13T21:17:34Z aeth: peey: imo, pair two words together and google to see if it's unique 2016-06-13T21:17:53Z aeth: alternatively, used one unique name as a sort of pseudo-brand... foobar-infix 2016-06-13T21:18:37Z peey: I'll just be more descriptive. :so-you-want-to-use-infix-expressions? 2016-06-13T21:19:00Z Grue`: also most lisps support unicode these days, you can even have an emoji package name.... 2016-06-13T21:19:09Z aeth: There's Bordeaux-Threads so pick another French city 2016-06-13T21:19:14Z aeth: peey: how about nice-infix 2016-06-13T21:19:21Z peey: How fascinating! 2016-06-13T21:20:34Z phoe_krk: Cities? Huh. Pick *proper* names! 2016-06-13T21:20:48Z phoe_krk: Name your package :|Corporate Programming Package, v. 3.0 alpha| 2016-06-13T21:20:55Z phoe_krk: Which is a valid package name. 2016-06-13T21:21:33Z p_l: This is Common Lisp, so proper would be a 6 upper case letter pseudo acronym... 2016-06-13T21:21:36Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: 'Enterprise Standard Package v 1.2.3 | patch 35' 2016-06-13T21:21:45Z phoe_krk: (I think I'd actually get shot if I tried to push that to quicklisp) 2016-06-13T21:22:03Z aeth: phoe_krk: right, just like my descriptive variable name idea I brought up last month iirc. (defparameter |Use the most descriptive variable name.| "Use the most descriptive variable name") 2016-06-13T21:22:08Z aeth: oh oops 2016-06-13T21:22:11Z phoe_krk: xD 2016-06-13T21:22:19Z aeth: It should be |*Use the most descriptive variable name.*| 2016-06-13T21:22:43Z peey: There are exactly 7 unique domains on ql which use reverse-domain for their package names 2016-06-13T21:22:45Z phoe_krk: p_l: Common Lisp Infix Notation Universal Package. 2016-06-13T21:22:48Z phoe_krk: CLINUP~! 2016-06-13T21:22:59Z |3b|: aeth: conflicts of the GL: package in cl-opengl were one of the motivations for my package-local-nicknames :/ 2016-06-13T21:23:30Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: You'll get shocked. Xach has hidden an algorithm in QL that will overload your usb ports and zap you through your docked phone. 2016-06-13T21:23:43Z aeth: |3b|: does cl-vulkan use the vk vulkan prefix as a nickname? 2016-06-13T21:23:48Z phoe_krk: jsgrant: I don't dock my phone 2016-06-13T21:23:58Z phoe_krk: I guess I'm safe. 2016-06-13T21:24:03Z jsgrant: pnoe_krk: "anymore". 2016-06-13T21:24:07Z |3b|: aeth: probably 2016-06-13T21:24:45Z gas2serra joined #lisp 2016-06-13T21:25:38Z phoe_krk: night, #parens 2016-06-13T21:25:53Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: Goodnight, sweet krk. 2016-06-13T21:25:57Z peey: good night! 2016-06-13T21:27:12Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-06-13T21:29:16Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-06-13T21:29:32Z cmos joined #lisp 2016-06-13T21:30:10Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T21:31:38Z dmiles: jasom: XCL when i last tried it wasnt buggy it just had more some failures i wanted to get arround fixing 2016-06-13T21:32:35Z jsgrant: "Goodnight, sweet lisp." would have been a lot better. 2016-06-13T21:35:00Z phoe_krk: (sleep (* 60 60 8)) 2016-06-13T21:36:11Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-06-13T21:36:24Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-06-13T21:36:28Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-06-13T21:39:09Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-06-13T21:39:38Z antonv joined #lisp 2016-06-13T21:40:34Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-13T21:43:36Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-06-13T21:45:12Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-13T21:45:52Z paul0 joined #lisp 2016-06-13T21:46:14Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-06-13T21:49:25Z mac_ified quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-13T21:49:51Z gas2serra_ joined #lisp 2016-06-13T21:50:04Z gas2serra quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-13T21:50:07Z gas2serra_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-06-13T21:50:41Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-13T21:52:44Z grimsley quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-13T21:55:25Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-13T21:56:21Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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