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2016-06-11T04:53:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-06-11T04:53:19Z jsgrant: beach: o/
2016-06-11T04:56:18Z beach: phoe_krk: In modular code, some slots have an :INITARG, some have an :INITFORM, some have both, some have none, some have a :READER, some have an :ACCESSOR, some have a :READER and a :WRITER with different names.  The variation is such that it is not justified to generate all those things automatically.
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2016-06-11T04:56:26Z pecan: Darn euros forgetting the world revolves around America. You meann *good evening everyone*
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2016-06-11T04:57:08Z beach: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
2016-06-11T04:57:25Z beach: "The idea behind establishing this convention was to eliminate noise generated almost every time someone comes in and greets using some form of day-time based greeting, and then channel members on the other side of the globe start pointing out that it's different time of the day for them."
2016-06-11T04:58:01Z pecan: Heh
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2016-06-11T05:04:58Z beach: I think I have a plan for making progress on Second Climacs.  I have been stuck with writing a sophisticated output-recording history class for McCLIM which (for some reason) I don't particularly want to finish.  I am going to write a very simple such class instead so that I can make progress on more important things like the commands and keyboard shortcuts.
2016-06-11T05:04:59Z beach: The very simple class might very well be useful anyway.  The plan is to have a different output-recording history for different "major modes".  The Common Lisp "major mode", for instance, will have a history that is generated incrementally from the result of the incremental parser.
2016-06-11T05:05:18Z jsgrant: pecan: I often will respond to a "good morning" with a good ol' American, "Good evening."
2016-06-11T05:06:04Z beach: Or "hello <handle>" will do just fine.
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2016-06-11T05:07:25Z jsgrant: beach: Yeah, but then I don't get to thrust myself upon individuals with such obnoxsury ferocity.
2016-06-11T05:07:47Z Bike: sup dawg
2016-06-11T05:08:15Z beach: jsgrant: There is that, yes.
2016-06-11T05:10:50Z jsgrant has had barely any freetime the past two to three months, but its shaping up that he'll actually have a bit of time towards the end of this one to actually mess with second-climacs.
2016-06-11T05:11:16Z beach: YAY!
2016-06-11T05:12:28Z jsgrant is fixing to have a overly verbose and rambled blog up at somepoint in the not-so distant future as well regarding mostly CL tech.
2016-06-11T05:13:45Z jsgrant: Wanted to for awhile; But, just have been swamped with adjusting to a radically different scheduled... out of near seemingly "nowhere". Things are seeming to settle now though. :^)
2016-06-11T05:14:13Z beach: Concratulations!
2016-06-11T05:14:15Z beach: er
2016-06-11T05:14:20Z beach: Congratulations!
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2016-06-11T05:16:13Z jsgrant: beach: More-like congratulations towards my now (just celebrated a birthday on the 8th) 99 y/o grandfather who is in much better spirits than prior to the abrupt life-shift.
2016-06-11T05:16:51Z beach: Impressive.
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2016-06-11T05:18:04Z beach: jsgrant: Second Climacs does not yet exist.  It has no GUI yet.  Though it uses Cluffer which exists and has been thoroughly tested.  Also, it has not Common Lisp "major mode" yet.  But maybe by the end of the month it will have some more substance.
2016-06-11T05:18:04Z jsgrant: switch*
2016-06-11T05:18:06Z jsgrant: Eh, shift works.
2016-06-11T05:18:06Z jsgrant: But yeah, things seemingly are going a good bit better. :^)
2016-06-11T05:18:28Z jsgrant: He's a "freak of nature" in the best possible way/sense.
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2016-06-11T05:19:22Z jsgrant: beach: Is cluffer to a point where one could start fudging up some trivial textual-based modes/programs (or still very early days)?
2016-06-11T05:20:00Z beach: Cluffer is basically finished.  It is thoroughly tested and documented.
2016-06-11T05:21:04Z jsgrant 's first non-trivial CL codebase he plans to browse through is McClim in the relative short-term -- so just that will probably keep me busy for a bit. Cluffer is definitely up there two. And second-climacs seems like a fortunate semi-sideeffect of the latter (but will be excited to play about when it gets closer to where it needs to be).
2016-06-11T05:21:14Z beach: A few months ago, I decided I have more projects than I can finish in my remaining life expectancy, so I decided to break out some code from some of them and put that code in libraries that can exist independently.  Cluffer is one result.
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2016-06-11T05:21:59Z beach: Oh, another pair of eyes on McCLIM would be great.
2016-06-11T05:22:08Z jsgrant: beach: From the little I've seen, it seems like a really attractive result. :^)
2016-06-11T05:22:16Z beach: Thanks!
2016-06-11T05:23:42Z jsgrant is attempting to work up a gameplan for the next few months ... probably edging towards the end of the year.
2016-06-11T05:24:11Z jsgrant: But a lot of beachware certainly reigns much interest.
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2016-06-11T05:24:43Z beach: I will be happy to assist you with that.
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2016-06-11T05:26:01Z beach: Can I assume that you know that I am hiring jackdaniel 25% for the next year or so to work on McCLIM and that he will be paid by other sources also 25% to work on Cleavir?
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2016-06-11T05:27:44Z jsgrant: beach: Nope, had no idea. Assume I've been pretty much gone for three months, regarding anything relevantly new.
2016-06-11T05:27:51Z beach: He only wants to work 50% on stuff like this, because he wants to spend the remaining 50% creating his company.
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2016-06-11T05:33:31Z jsgrant: beach: Oh, very neat to hear. Is he using such tech in his startup/company, or just a side-job?
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2016-06-11T05:34:36Z beach: I haven't checked the details, but I am assuming that he wants to base his company on Common Lisp technology, and in particular on ECL, since he is the maintainer now.  You should check with him.  He is an early-ish riser so he will probably be here soon.
2016-06-11T05:35:24Z pecan: Neat. ECL is a pretty great piece of software.
2016-06-11T05:36:18Z beach: I think it is a great idea, especially since the cost of living in Poland is significantly less than in the rest of the western world, so he can be competitive that way, at least initially.
2016-06-11T05:36:34Z jsgrant: I got more-or-less an hour or-so till bedtime.
2016-06-11T05:37:42Z beach: jsgrant: He is awake! :)
2016-06-11T05:38:34Z jackdaniel: hey o/
2016-06-11T05:38:36Z jackdaniel: good morning :)
2016-06-11T05:38:44Z jackdaniel: let me read the backlog ;)
2016-06-11T05:38:48Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2016-06-11T05:40:39Z jackdaniel: ah, right, I can confirm all these ;)
2016-06-11T05:41:01Z beach: pecan: I would like to see more shared code between Common Lisp implementations.  That would require more code to be in Common Lisp and less in C or C++.  For that to work, many implementations need a better compiler.  That is where Cleavir comes in.
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2016-06-11T05:49:30Z beach: jsgrant: And I am planning to try to crow-fund at least part of the 25% of jackdaniel's time that he works on McCLIM.  A quick poll on mcclim-devel suggest that I can easily get at least a fourth of the cost covered that way.  Even small contributions such as 10€ per month are significant.
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2016-06-11T05:54:56Z beach is guessing that jsgrant fell asleep.
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2016-06-11T06:03:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I really like a lot of things about clim-listener, especially the inline graphics and the various prompts that pop up
2016-06-11T06:04:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I have a couple frustrations: I can't figure out how to choose from the list of completions without using the mouse
2016-06-11T06:04:25Z jackdaniel: if you want to call McCLIM commands, start with the comma
2016-06-11T06:05:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I can't figure out how to make it catch conditions inside the listener rather than in the REPL I use to start the listener.
2016-06-11T06:05:11Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I like the listener very much as well.  But it can definitely use some work.
2016-06-11T06:05:18Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: that sounds like a good feature request, or as a very fine side project to implement :)
2016-06-11T06:05:20Z beach: It has great potential.
2016-06-11T06:05:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2016-06-11T06:05:42Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: regarding conditions, use Debugger module
2016-06-11T06:05:44Z jackdaniel: it's in the apps
2016-06-11T06:06:01Z jackdaniel: it will be like: (let ((*debugger-hook* /something/)) (clim-listener:run-listener))
2016-06-11T06:06:19Z jackdaniel: debugger doesn't support keyboard shortcuts like slime yet, but it can be definetely implemented
2016-06-11T06:06:39Z jackdaniel: and it's also a full-featured inspector powered by clouseau (which uses swank I think)
2016-06-11T06:07:08Z beach: I don't think Clouseau uses swank.
2016-06-11T06:07:44Z jackdaniel: OK, I had to mix it with something else :)
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2016-06-11T06:07:49Z beach: At least it didn't when I wrote it.
2016-06-11T06:08:19Z jackdaniel: it doesn't, just checked
2016-06-11T06:08:33Z jackdaniel: it's clim-debugger what uses swank
2016-06-11T06:08:40Z jackdaniel: that's the reason of my confusion I suppose
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2016-06-11T06:09:20Z jackdaniel: for backtrace and with-debugging-environment
2016-06-11T06:09:45Z jackdaniel: (let ((*debugger-hook* #'clim-debugger:debugger)) (clim-listener:run-listener :new-process t)) ; <-
2016-06-11T06:09:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: lHmm, the debugger doesn't seem to be available on quicklisp?
2016-06-11T06:10:09Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: try clim-debugger
2016-06-11T06:10:22Z jackdaniel: it's shipped with mcclim, but you need to have a recent version of McCLIM
2016-06-11T06:10:28Z jackdaniel: previously it didn't have a system definition
2016-06-11T06:10:33Z jackdaniel: just a floating file with code
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2016-06-11T06:17:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, the debugger works and looks nice
2016-06-11T06:17:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: (after cloning the git repository)
2016-06-11T06:19:09Z beach: Great!
2016-06-11T06:20:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Another little thing is that *standard-output* seems to interfere with the prompt:
2016-06-11T06:20:36Z beach: In the listener?
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2016-06-11T06:24:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah: http://postimg.org/image/i3kpv766z/
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2016-06-11T06:28:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure how to best handle that case, though: hunchentoot is running in a separate thread and printing to the same place as the repl
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2016-06-11T06:39:02Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: I've hacked similar thing yesterday by defining (defparameter *xxx* *standard-input*) in slime repl
2016-06-11T06:39:29Z jackdaniel: and calling (let ((*standard-input* clim-user::*xxx*)) (my-function)) in mcclim
2016-06-11T06:39:58Z jackdaniel: starndard-output ° not input
2016-06-11T06:41:16Z jsgrant: beach: Had to sneak downstiars and take a doodie, sorry.
2016-06-11T06:41:49Z jsgrant: Then I got busy reading on the pot. :^U
2016-06-11T06:42:09Z jsgrant just checked the time and seen it's almost already been an hour ... oops.
2016-06-11T06:42:47Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: you are trying to muffle *standard-output* right? If so wouldn't (make-broadcast-stream) in the let suffice?
2016-06-11T06:42:58Z PuercoPop: (you/the goal is
2016-06-11T06:43:25Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: I did want to see the output for that particular goal
2016-06-11T06:43:35Z jackdaniel: I was fighting with the bug with pane size recalculation
2016-06-11T06:43:46Z jackdaniel: and printing in said panes was pain
2016-06-11T06:44:06Z jackdaniel: so jsut redirected it to my emacs buffer
2016-06-11T06:44:19Z jackdaniel: s/jsut/just/
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2016-06-11T06:45:09Z jsgrant: Yeah, crowdfunding is probably a pretty good way to go to at least supplement some of the cost barring any chance of sponsors. And seeing Franz looks pretty invested in their implementation of clim, don't see that likely on this front.
2016-06-11T06:46:59Z beach: I think McCLIM is a better implementation than Franz CLIM.  McCLIM has problems but they can be fixed with a modest investment.  Getting Franz CLIM to work on other implementations would be much more difficult.
2016-06-11T06:47:44Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: apropos, this is a nifty trick for redirecting a stream somewhere else http://web.archive.org/web/20140711171745/http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1991
2016-06-11T06:48:51Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: sounds nice, maybe I'll try to use it in EclAndroid (output redirection there is a one big hack for now :)
2016-06-11T06:49:25Z jsgrant: beach: Well I argree, but aren't there likely reason for this? Including possible implementation lock-in?
2016-06-11T06:49:30Z jackdaniel: jsgrant: regarding my company, I'm still looking for a scalable business model. For now it's consultancy (www.turtleware.eu), but I want to create something (I had a product idea, but lately I've learned that something like this exists on the market). I'm also considering starting training seminars or something of this kind
2016-06-11T06:50:04Z slyrus: beach: does gsharp still work?
2016-06-11T06:50:07Z jackdaniel: jsgrant: they wouldn't opensource it if they didn't like to make it accessible for other implementations
2016-06-11T06:50:29Z beach: slyrus: I haven't tried it recently, but nothing has changed so I think it ought to work.
2016-06-11T06:50:42Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: Logo looks familiar, might have passed through the site before actually. :^)
2016-06-11T06:50:49Z slyrus: Ok. One of these days I want to check it out.
2016-06-11T06:51:13Z jackdaniel: :-)
2016-06-11T06:51:30Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: Not necessarily, but I get that line of argumentation.
2016-06-11T06:52:54Z jackdaniel: jsgrant: so you plan to work on McCLIM a bit soon? :)
2016-06-11T06:53:42Z jackdaniel: btw, there is #clim channel fyi
2016-06-11T06:55:11Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: Write a edsl and related infrastructure for recipes, that will make it trivial to for automated restaurant-focused bots?
2016-06-11T06:55:37Z jsgrant: to replace meatsacks for automated*
2016-06-11T06:56:21Z jackdaniel: heh :) for now I'm pretty happy I can work on the software which matters for the community
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2016-06-11T06:57:43Z jsgrant lives in the "silicon valley of the 'midwest'" as if that wasn't self-ingrandized. So he's always loosely thinking of potiental startup ideas -- even though he's dubious he'd ever have a go at one.
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2016-06-11T06:59:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: slyrus: I just ran it a half hour ago
2016-06-11T06:59:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: note input and playback seemed to work
2016-06-11T07:00:09Z jsgrant: Okay, going to likely lurk for another half-hour or so; Then heading to bed.
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2016-06-11T07:03:08Z jackdaniel: jsgrant: I'm not much into startups (given how I understand core values behind startup idea)
2016-06-11T07:03:44Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: As-in, startup as the goal to sell eventually?
2016-06-11T07:04:47Z jackdaniel: yes, I want to build something I'll be proud of, what will serve well to the community and allow me to live from it and keep developing
2016-06-11T07:05:27Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: Well is this the difference between startup and small company, or startup and freelance?
2016-06-11T07:06:10Z jackdaniel: I want to create a small company :)
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2016-06-11T07:06:54Z jackdaniel: well, I'm creating a small company°, not only "want to"
2016-06-11T07:06:58Z jsgrant: So that main difference being the investor obligation + assumed intent to sell at somepoint then?
2016-06-11T07:08:13Z jackdaniel: I think it's more about a motivation. I believe that startup founders strive to get rich. Imo it's not bad to be rich, but it's not an objective for me
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2016-06-11T07:08:49Z jackdaniel: I'm probably very naive, but it's fine ;-)
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2016-06-11T07:09:29Z jsgrant: Unrelated, but Stumpwm is beating the averages of power consumption on this low-tier hp box. It's been over 2:30 hours for about an hour. :^)
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2016-06-11T07:12:32Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: As I get older and start to care more and more about a living wage, I'm trying to get myself more invested into a stack that would get me a codemonkey position -- it's rough. And I think most of drudgery is from my expectation of programming to be a fun and expressive thing and not just a means to an end; That will, probably more than anything push me into the same or similar boat a few years down the line.
2016-06-11T07:12:54Z jsgrant: When fully engulfed into
2016-06-11T07:13:00Z jsgrant: "the industry".
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2016-06-11T07:15:00Z jackdaniel: that was a hard sentence to process for me (given my poor english :P)
2016-06-11T07:15:27Z jackdaniel: I'm not saying it's bad, it's just not my thing :)
2016-06-11T07:16:14Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: Yeah, sorry -- overly verbose on a good day ... droning when sleepy.
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2016-06-11T07:19:06Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: Nah, sometimes I wish I wasn't so idealistically driven and could/would be happy with being one of the uber-pragmatic. Allows me to get much more deeply intellectually invested than I would likely otherwise, so it probably just about equals out. :^P
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2016-06-11T07:26:07Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: this is a really nice blog you pointed me to
2016-06-11T07:29:55Z jsgrant: Okay, enough ramble; Bedtime people. o/
2016-06-11T07:30:07Z jsgrant is plugging in and going afk.
2016-06-11T07:30:39Z jackdaniel: goodnight
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2016-06-11T08:04:48Z jackdaniel: is http://quickutil.org/'s maintainance state something temporary or it's that way for a longer period of time?
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2016-06-11T08:17:21Z beach: You had better ask Quadrescence.
2016-06-11T08:18:33Z jackdaniel: Quadrescence: ↑ :-)
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2016-06-11T08:40:39Z mrrtrump: yep
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2016-06-11T09:43:54Z phoe_krk: beach: Hey!
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2016-06-11T09:44:08Z phoe_krk: I did notice that when I began writing the thing I just began writing.
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2016-06-11T09:44:54Z phoe_krk: I have a PASSWORD class that I actually want to give absolutely no accessors for. I have a separate API to access and set it instead because I need to use Ironclad a lot.
2016-06-11T09:45:23Z beach: Well, it is usually a good idea to use accessors anyway, rather than SLOT-VALUE.
2016-06-11T09:45:34Z beach: That way you can create what we call an "internal protocol".
2016-06-11T09:45:43Z beach: You don't export the names of the accessors then.
2016-06-11T09:46:02Z phoe_krk: beach: I don't want to produce new functions. It might encourage programmers to actually depend on them when they extend my stuff.
2016-06-11T09:46:19Z phoe_krk: I have three slots, HASH, DIGEST and SALT in my password. None of these are actually meant for the user.
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2016-06-11T09:46:27Z beach: How is it better that they depend on the existence of the slots?
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2016-06-11T09:47:02Z phoe_krk: When a user tries to type in a function name and e.g. utilizes autocomplete, he doesn't see any function name on the list.
2016-06-11T09:47:07Z phoe_krk: One possibility for abuse less.
2016-06-11T09:47:29Z beach: If you don't export the names, then there is no problem.
2016-06-11T09:48:12Z beach: In good, modular, object-oriented design, you always start by designing a protocol, i.e. a set of generic functions.  Only later do you decide what functionality should be provided in the form of slots, and what functionality should be computed.
2016-06-11T09:48:31Z phoe_krk: Hmm.
2016-06-11T09:48:37Z beach: Slots are an implementation detail that you don't want to decide right away.
2016-06-11T09:48:58Z beach: That way, you can change the decision later, depending on factors such as performance.
2016-06-11T09:49:04Z phoe_krk: I actually started with slots that later ended up being modified by generics anyway.
2016-06-11T09:49:20Z phoe_krk: And now it's generics that are the most important when I wrote them as the second.
2016-06-11T09:50:16Z beach: You should never start with the slots.  A protocol is a generalization of what is called an "interface" in less general languages, and that is what is important.
2016-06-11T09:50:54Z phoe_krk: Hm.
2016-06-11T09:50:56Z phoe_krk: I see.
2016-06-11T09:51:10Z phoe_krk: I'll rethink the rest of the application that I have - brb.
2016-06-11T09:52:09Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/318068 <- this is the code that I have now.
2016-06-11T09:52:52Z phoe_krk: The DEFCLASS and DEFGENERICs are in the API file, DEFMETHODs are in the IMPL file.
2016-06-11T09:53:24Z phoe_krk: Oh yeah, that global variable is set to "".
2016-06-11T09:53:47Z beach: Oh, and it is not very good Common Lisp style to use set- and get- prefixes.
2016-06-11T09:56:44Z beach: Furthermore, I can very well imagine implementations on which SLOT-VALUE and (SETF SLOT-VALUE) would be slower than an accessor.
2016-06-11T09:56:45Z phoe_krk: I might be heavily Java-influenced on that one. I should use writers with SETF, correct?
2016-06-11T09:57:16Z beach: That would be much better.
2016-06-11T09:57:26Z phoe_krk: But then, again - if I go in this direction, I will want to modularize this *even* more.
2016-06-11T09:57:58Z phoe_krk: And actually, huh, maybe go with one module/package per two files or something.
2016-06-11T09:58:01Z beach: You then need to have a different name for the slots than for the setters.
2016-06-11T09:58:17Z phoe_krk: DEFCLASS* suggests SLOT-NAME-OF accessors.
2016-06-11T09:58:28Z phoe_krk: So, HASH slot, HASH-OF accessor.
2016-06-11T09:58:37Z beach: That is one possibility.
2016-06-11T09:58:56Z beach: But then again, it is not a good idea to generate the accessors automatically.
2016-06-11T09:59:14Z beach: The other possibility is to do what I do, prefix the slot name with %.
2016-06-11T09:59:35Z beach: The % character has a traditional meaning of "internal" or "danger, don't use".
2016-06-11T09:59:57Z beach: Which is exactly what one wants to communicate to someone using slot names directly.
2016-06-11T10:00:19Z phoe_krk: Hmm.
2016-06-11T10:00:24Z phoe_krk: Slot name with %.
2016-06-11T10:00:46Z phoe_krk: You mean, (defclass foo () (%bar %baz))?
2016-06-11T10:01:06Z beach: (defclass password () ((%hash ... :accessor hash)...))  something like that.
2016-06-11T10:01:14Z phoe_krk: I see.
2016-06-11T10:01:41Z beach: Someone trying to use slot-value would then have to type package::%hash.
2016-06-11T10:01:48Z phoe_krk: Which is scary enough.
2016-06-11T10:01:51Z beach: and :: and % both indicate "don't do it".
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2016-06-11T10:03:01Z phoe_krk: I see.
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2016-06-11T10:04:25Z phoe_krk: Huh.
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2016-06-11T10:04:36Z phoe_krk: That sounds like a good idea, actually.
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2016-06-11T10:05:45Z phoe_krk: Even considering what I've already done, which is basically a series of DEFCLASSes with slots.
2016-06-11T10:06:31Z phoe_krk: I can go one step further and turn these definitions of slots into DWIM-style generics.
2016-06-11T10:06:35Z phoe_krk: And later go with that.
2016-06-11T10:06:54Z beach: What are DWIM-style generics?
2016-06-11T10:07:19Z phoe_krk: Uhh. Do What I Mean.
2016-06-11T10:07:34Z phoe_krk: Just a term that appeared in my head.
2016-06-11T10:07:41Z beach: I know what DWIM stands for.  I just don't know what DWIM-style generics are.
2016-06-11T10:08:19Z beach: So when you use SLOT-VALUE you basically commit to having a slot and you make it impossible to have any other action when you access the slot.  With accessors, you can later add auxiliary methods, or change the implementation completely to using a calculation rather than a slot.
2016-06-11T10:08:24Z phoe_krk: Actually, it turned out to be another variant of the get/set stuff I already use.
2016-06-11T10:08:40Z phoe_krk: Which is not good.
2016-06-11T10:08:47Z phoe_krk: I mean - not good in Lisp.
2016-06-11T10:09:15Z beach: Why do your methods return T?
2016-06-11T10:09:55Z phoe_krk: Inside password stuff, I don't want to return anything - not a hash, not a digest, not a salt.
2016-06-11T10:10:07Z beach: Then use (VALUES) instead.
2016-06-11T10:10:17Z phoe_krk: Oh! Thanks.
2016-06-11T10:10:24Z beach: Returning T tells the maintainer of your code that someone is relying on that value when the method is called.
2016-06-11T10:10:46Z phoe_krk: I see.
2016-06-11T10:10:50Z Grue`: I think returning nil is also reasonable
2016-06-11T10:11:18Z beach: It is definitely better than T, yes.
2016-06-11T10:11:24Z phoe_krk: I see.
2016-06-11T10:13:29Z beach: Lunch.  I'll be back later.
2016-06-11T10:13:35Z phoe_krk: Okay!
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2016-06-11T10:32:11Z beach: You might want to abstract out the four binding lines of your LET* to a function.  There is some substantial duplication there.
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2016-06-11T10:34:18Z beach: (defun hex-hash (password) (let* ((string ...) (octets ...) (hash ...)) (ironclad:byte-array...)))
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2016-06-11T10:41:24Z phoe_krk: To a function. Right.
2016-06-11T10:41:51Z beach: Yes, like my model above.
2016-06-11T10:41:58Z phoe_krk: Mhm!
2016-06-11T10:44:18Z _death: phoe: instead of cooking up your own key derivation function, why not use pbkdf2 or bcrypt
2016-06-11T10:44:49Z phoe_krk: _death: as usual, because I had no idea these libraries exist
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2016-06-11T10:45:36Z _death: well ironclad already has a scrypt-kdf
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2016-06-11T10:47:28Z _death: phoe: see http://method-combination.net/lisp/ironclad/ "Key derivation functions"
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2016-06-11T10:49:20Z _death: for random number generation you can use my srandom if you're running linux.. https://github.com/death/srandom
2016-06-11T10:49:44Z reepca: wow, you got that name on github. Nice!
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2016-06-11T10:50:24Z _death: although ironclad also has a make-random-salt function, I guess
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2016-06-11T10:50:47Z _death: reepca: ;)
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2016-06-11T11:12:15Z _death: it appears ironclad does not attempt to avoid timing attacks..
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2016-06-11T11:15:20Z phoe_krk: _death: I'm no good when it comes to cryptography. Maybe you could try fixing it?
2016-06-11T11:15:49Z _death: that'd require significant effort
2016-06-11T11:16:05Z Arathnim: _death: You found password-dependent branches in a cipher? Which one?
2016-06-11T11:16:08Z phoe_krk: Would a simple and naive (sleep (random 0.1)) help?
2016-06-11T11:16:21Z _death: phoe: no
2016-06-11T11:16:31Z phoe_krk: where the 0.1 is arbitrary and sort of huge.
2016-06-11T11:16:51Z _death: Arathnim: there are many places.. like I said, it does not attempt to avoid them at all
2016-06-11T11:16:57Z phoe_krk: But again, I don't know anything about crypto.
2016-06-11T11:18:03Z phoe_krk: Other than the only way of getting good at it is 10% of spotting where a possible attack might happen and 90% of spotting where actual attacks have happened or are happening now.
2016-06-11T11:21:37Z _death: phoe: in any case, using its scrypt implementation is much much better than that ad hoc code ;)
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2016-06-11T11:25:17Z _death: phoe: if you want to get a good clue about how crypto can fail you should do the challenges at www.cryptopals.com ... they were very educational and a lot of fun
2016-06-11T11:25:27Z phoe_krk: Okay - I'll do it soon.
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2016-06-11T11:34:21Z Arathnim: _death: I'm on the third set, using CL. How far did you get?
2016-06-11T11:35:17Z _death: Arathnim: I paused at challenge 53 (set 7).. did them using Go
2016-06-11T11:35:58Z _death: almost a year ago
2016-06-11T11:38:04Z Arathnim: Doing those challenges taught me a lot about crypto, more than any book. I can't wait to finish the remaining sets.
2016-06-11T11:38:28Z _death: implementing the Bleichenbacher attack was the hardest
2016-06-11T11:42:01Z Arathnim: End of the RSA set? Yeah, it looks difficult. The new set, abstract algebra, seems even harder.
2016-06-11T11:43:14Z _death: the new set doesn't seem to have the actual challenges yet.. anyway I do them progressively, so still have to solve 53+ ;)
2016-06-11T11:44:23Z Arathnim: You have to mail in for them, just like in the original crypto challenges
2016-06-11T11:44:59Z _death: seems so
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2016-06-11T12:42:32Z phoe_krk: Actually.
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2016-06-11T12:43:08Z phoe_krk: How good would it be to basically make the password class write-only, with the only exception being a predicate PASSWORD-MATCHES-P?
2016-06-11T12:43:41Z beach: That's a good solution.
2016-06-11T12:43:42Z phoe_krk: That takes a password instance and a string?
2016-06-11T12:43:57Z phoe_krk: Hum. And it simplifies things a real lot, too.
2016-06-11T12:44:15Z phoe_krk: I could actually internalize four of these functions and put them in the password constructor.
2016-06-11T12:44:29Z phoe_krk: So the only one remaining is the predicate.
2016-06-11T12:44:46Z phoe_krk: And, like _death said, utilize IRONCLAD fully.
2016-06-11T12:47:11Z phoe_krk: Should I make a custom constructing function, say, MAKE-PASSWORD, or instead rely on bare MAKE-INSTANCE?
2016-06-11T12:47:29Z phoe_krk: Because the second appeals more to me.
2016-06-11T12:48:15Z beach: There is no consensus in that respect.
2016-06-11T12:48:25Z reepca: isn't there a way to make make-instance do what you define?
2016-06-11T12:49:16Z beach: Sonja Keene recommends using custom constructor functions.
2016-06-11T12:49:28Z reepca: Why not make both work?
2016-06-11T12:50:15Z phoe_krk: reepca: there is!
2016-06-11T12:50:24Z phoe_krk: INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER.
2016-06-11T12:51:09Z phoe_krk: And I think I'll actually go with a custom MAKE-PASSWORD function which will actually wrap around MAKE-INSTANCE that will then call INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER.
2016-06-11T12:51:15Z phoe_krk: So both will work, like reepca said.
2016-06-11T12:51:47Z beach: phoe_krk: You can't call INITIALIZE-INSTANCE yourself.
2016-06-11T12:52:15Z phoe_krk: beach: I know! MAKE-INSTANCE will call it on its own.
2016-06-11T12:52:26Z beach: Right.  Just wanted to make sure you know.
2016-06-11T12:52:28Z phoe_krk: I know.
2016-06-11T12:52:36Z phoe_krk: It gets called automatically.
2016-06-11T12:52:45Z phoe_krk: Practical Common Lisp taught me that one.
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2016-06-11T12:57:59Z phoe_krk: ...I just typed (MAKE-INSTANCE 'CLASS) into Lisp.
2016-06-11T12:58:03Z phoe_krk: I didn't know what I expected.
2016-06-11T12:58:16Z beach: Heh!
2016-06-11T12:58:19Z reepca: I feel compelled to try it now
2016-06-11T12:58:29Z reepca: ... wow. it worked.
2016-06-11T12:58:38Z phoe_krk: Well.
2016-06-11T12:58:40Z phoe_krk: It made an instance.
2016-06-11T12:58:42Z phoe_krk: Of a class.
2016-06-11T12:58:58Z beach: Yes, an instance of the class named CLASS.
2016-06-11T12:59:07Z beach: clhs class
2016-06-11T12:59:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_class.htm
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2016-06-11T12:59:49Z reepca: at the top it says it's a "system class", but in the description it refers to it as a type
2016-06-11T13:00:33Z reepca: some day I'll fully comprehend the difference.
2016-06-11T13:00:49Z phoe_krk: reepca: all classes are types as far as I understand it.
2016-06-11T13:00:58Z phoe_krk: Which includes system classes.
2016-06-11T13:01:18Z reepca: so classes are a subset of types?
2016-06-11T13:02:37Z phoe_krk: There are various kinds of classes, actually.
2016-06-11T13:03:05Z phoe_krk: But, I think, uh, sort of?
2016-06-11T13:03:37Z beach: reepca: Yes, every class defines a corresponding type.
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2016-06-11T13:05:43Z phoe_krk: clhs null
2016-06-11T13:05:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_null.htm
2016-06-11T13:06:10Z phoe_krk: Right, type NIL has no corresponding class. (As expected.)
2016-06-11T13:06:28Z beach: clhs 4.3.7
2016-06-11T13:06:28Z specbot: Integrating Types and Classes: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_cg.htm
2016-06-11T13:06:40Z beach: reepca: ↑
2016-06-11T13:06:48Z phoe_krk: beach: do you remember all the CLHS numbers?
2016-06-11T13:06:52Z beach: Every class that has a proper name has a corresponding type with the same name.
2016-06-11T13:07:23Z beach: phoe_krk: Me, remembering something?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
2016-06-11T13:07:49Z phoe_krk: clhs integrating types and classes
2016-06-11T13:08:00Z phoe_krk: specbot could learn to do this, perhaps...
2016-06-11T13:12:43Z phoe_krk: beach: should I prefix the acccessors with % as well? Like, %SALT-OF ?
2016-06-11T13:13:00Z phoe_krk: I want this one to be very internal.
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2016-06-11T13:19:18Z beach: No need.  Just don't export the name.
2016-06-11T13:21:08Z phoe_krk: Okay.
2016-06-11T13:21:29Z phoe_krk: How should I construct the PASSWORD class to be able to pass an additional parameter to MAKE-INSTANCE?
2016-06-11T13:21:44Z phoe_krk: Like - I want to pass a parameter without declaring a new slot for it.
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2016-06-11T13:22:35Z beach: You add a keyword argument to the :AFTER method of INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
2016-06-11T13:22:45Z phoe_krk: Right! There.
2016-06-11T13:22:46Z phoe_krk: Thanks!
2016-06-11T13:22:58Z beach: Sure.  It's my job. :)
2016-06-11T13:23:04Z phoe_krk: :P
2016-06-11T13:25:02Z phoe_krk: Can I specialize on the key?
2016-06-11T13:25:10Z beach: Nope!
2016-06-11T13:25:13Z phoe_krk: !
2016-06-11T13:25:14Z phoe_krk: Okay.
2016-06-11T13:26:13Z beach: But you can call another generic function, passing it the instance and the value of the keyword argument, and that other generic function can specialize on it.
2016-06-11T13:27:40Z jackdaniel: there is also filtered-functions library
2016-06-11T13:27:46Z phoe_krk: Ayup. But all I need to do here is a simple type-check.
2016-06-11T13:27:48Z jackdaniel: which let's you to specialize on the key
2016-06-11T13:28:06Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/pcostanza/filtered-functions
2016-06-11T13:28:10Z beach: jackdaniel: But still not the key of INITIALIZE-INSTANCE I presume.
2016-06-11T13:28:42Z beach suspects that jackdaniel didn't read the conversation very carefully.
2016-06-11T13:28:52Z jackdaniel: indeed, you got me :-P
2016-06-11T13:28:56Z jackdaniel: I'm out of context
2016-06-11T13:33:09Z phoe_krk: beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/318080
2016-06-11T13:33:27Z phoe_krk: What do you think about it?
2016-06-11T13:33:57Z phoe_krk: ...I wonder whether there's a multiple-value-setf floating around somewhere.
2016-06-11T13:34:18Z jackdaniel: (setf (values a b c) (values 1 2 3)) should work I think
2016-06-11T13:34:42Z beach: OK, so now you have unnecessary double protection.  the reason for the % convention was so that you could have the "same" name of the accessors, i.e. key and salt.
2016-06-11T13:34:57Z phoe_krk: Works.
2016-06-11T13:34:57Z jackdaniel: or in your context: (setf (values key salt) (%derive-key passphrase))
2016-06-11T13:35:40Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: WOW. Now that's a very big shortcut.
2016-06-11T13:35:41Z beach: phoe_krk: And there is no reason to have % prefix on derive-key.
2016-06-11T13:36:35Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: you may define similar *magic* with defsetf by yourself
2016-06-11T13:36:36Z beach: If you are going to use accessor names with -of prefix, you do not need to prefix the slot names.
2016-06-11T13:36:48Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: thanks!
2016-06-11T13:37:10Z jackdaniel: sure
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2016-06-11T13:37:30Z phoe_krk: beach: I like having the % symbol as something that marks a symbol as internal.
2016-06-11T13:37:51Z phoe_krk: I don't want anyone from outside to poke their nose at the %DERIVE-KEY function or stumble upon it by chance.
2016-06-11T13:37:55Z Grue`: the fact that it's unexported pretty much means that, isn't it?
2016-06-11T13:38:00Z beach: phoe_krk: That's not the accepted style.
2016-06-11T13:38:30Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: you may wrap things in (with-unique-symbols (derive-key) your-forms)
2016-06-11T13:38:32Z phoe_krk: beach: sigh. The moment I'm inside the package, I will end up having one hell of non-%-prefixed functions if I go this way.
2016-06-11T13:38:34Z beach: phoe_krk: With that convention, you would have to prefix all the local variables too.
2016-06-11T13:38:43Z jackdaniel: then it will be practically impossible to call it from outside ^_^
2016-06-11T13:39:04Z beach: phoe_krk: So, what is the problem with that?
2016-06-11T13:39:10Z Grue`: define this function inside a flet then nobody could call it
2016-06-11T13:39:28Z phoe_krk: When I'm going e.g. autocomplete, I don't want to have an out-of-context DERIVE-KEY pop out at me when I'm writing GUI for example.
2016-06-11T13:39:47Z phoe_krk: When I type D[TAB].
2016-06-11T13:39:52Z beach: phoe_krk: You shouldn't have that package as the current one when you write a GUI.
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2016-06-11T13:40:09Z jackdaniel: with-unique-names °
2016-06-11T13:40:11Z phoe_krk: So I should be doing many smaller packages.
2016-06-11T13:40:20Z Grue`: actually I've seen several libraries that use % or even %% to prefix some fucntions
2016-06-11T13:40:35Z beach: phoe_krk: The "model" and the GUI should definitely be in separate packages.
2016-06-11T13:40:57Z phoe_krk: beach: right, wrong example. But I think you get what I mean.
2016-06-11T13:40:59Z jackdaniel: Grue`: %xxx means "dangerous", "internal", "prone to change", "keep out of it", "unportable", "fast variant"
2016-06-11T13:41:21Z beach: phoe_krk: I typically make a separate package for each protocol.
2016-06-11T13:41:42Z phoe_krk: Humm.
2016-06-11T13:41:46Z phoe_krk: So, a lot of packages it is.
2016-06-11T13:42:08Z beach can now see how phoe_krk might take this suggestion to its extreme as well.
2016-06-11T13:44:17Z phoe_krk: Oh come on. :P
2016-06-11T13:45:16Z Grue`: with stuff like :use-reexport it's now a bit easier to have tons of packages than it used to be
2016-06-11T13:45:22Z beach: phoe_krk: Here is another possibility...
2016-06-11T13:45:30Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/318068#1 <- beach
2016-06-11T13:45:33Z phoe_krk: Hm?
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2016-06-11T13:46:18Z beach: phoe_krk: Define one package that contains only the symbols of the protocol(s).  Define an "implementation" package for all the rest.
2016-06-11T13:46:35Z phoe_krk: Hmmmm.
2016-06-11T13:46:43Z phoe_krk: This sounds very tempting.
2016-06-11T13:46:53Z phoe_krk: My project's skeleton is already built like that.
2016-06-11T13:46:54Z beach: Common Lisp itself does it that way.
2016-06-11T13:47:01Z beach: So does CLIM.
2016-06-11T13:47:28Z phoe_krk: beach: Is it viable for me to contain more than the symbols? I'd actually put DEFCLASSes and DEFGENERICs in there.
2016-06-11T13:47:41Z phoe_krk: s/contain/insert/
2016-06-11T13:48:04Z beach: With this technique, there is no code file that has an IN-PACKAGE with the protocol package in it.
2016-06-11T13:48:18Z phoe_krk: Or is that *still* implementation-dependent?
2016-06-11T13:48:57Z beach: The implementation package typically :USEes the protocol package.
2016-06-11T13:49:12Z phoe_krk: I have one more problem, namely - I have my code split into API and IMPL parts.
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2016-06-11T13:49:24Z phoe_krk: API contains only DEFCLASS and DEFGENERIC calls.
2016-06-11T13:49:28Z phoe_krk: While IMPL has everything else.
2016-06-11T13:49:43Z beach: Again, with that technique, the API package contains no code (so to speak).
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2016-06-11T13:49:54Z phoe_krk: This way I can first load all the API, and then all the IMPL files, and there are no problems with names not being available.
2016-06-11T13:50:22Z beach: You can have two implementation files, both using the same implementation package.
2016-06-11T13:50:38Z phoe_krk: Okay.
2016-06-11T13:50:45Z beach: There is no rule that there must be a one-to-one correspondence between packages and files.
2016-06-11T13:51:00Z phoe_krk: I know.
2016-06-11T13:51:29Z phoe_krk: I'll need to expand ASD-generator to take care of that.
2016-06-11T13:51:44Z jackdaniel: Grue`: use-reexport? where did you find this?
2016-06-11T13:52:01Z phoe_krk: To make a package MAINPROJECT/FOO for files /API/FOO.LISP and /IMPL/FOO.LISP
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2016-06-11T13:54:48Z jackdaniel: ah, it's something in uiop
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2016-06-11T14:01:31Z Grue`: yep
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2016-06-11T15:14:20Z axion: What is the easiest way to get the parent directory as a string of a file given a pathname, such as #P"/foo/bar/baz/file.txt" => "baz" ?
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2016-06-11T15:16:22Z jackdaniel: axion: (car (last (pathname-directory #P"/foo/bar/file.xxx")))
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2016-06-11T15:16:47Z axion: Thanks
2016-06-11T15:17:13Z jackdaniel: yw
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2016-06-11T15:39:20Z phoe_krk: "After making these adjustments, please rebase and squash the commits."
2016-06-11T15:39:48Z phoe_krk: wtf is this arcane debauchery that I am supposed to do correctly
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2016-06-11T15:41:24Z jackdaniel: rebasing on top of the last commits of the master branch of the repository you want to merge to, so history is more sequential
2016-06-11T15:41:33Z jackdaniel: and squash to avoid unnecesary noise in the commits log
2016-06-11T15:41:41Z jackdaniel: so each commit is an atomic change
2016-06-11T15:41:46Z phoe_krk: yes, I know.
2016-06-11T15:41:53Z jackdaniel: it simplifies for instance bisection of bugs
2016-06-11T15:41:57Z jackdaniel: (less steps)
2016-06-11T15:42:01Z phoe_krk: I know all the wonderful theory.
2016-06-11T15:42:05Z fe[nl]ix: phoe_krk: if you don't know how to I can do it
2016-06-11T15:42:08Z jackdaniel: it's practice
2016-06-11T15:42:09Z phoe_krk: I don't know the commands to execute it.
2016-06-11T15:42:15Z fe[nl]ix: it's not a problem
2016-06-11T15:42:20Z jackdaniel: git rebase -i HEAD~10
2016-06-11T15:42:21Z phoe_krk: fe[nl]ix: I want to know how to do it, so I can do it myself in the future.
2016-06-11T15:42:36Z fe[nl]ix: do you use emacs ?
2016-06-11T15:42:38Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: export EDITOR=emacs
2016-06-11T15:42:50Z jackdaniel: git rebase -i HEAD~10 ; and you'll have some tips on the buffer
2016-06-11T15:43:09Z fe[nl]ix: rebasing from magit is very convenient
2016-06-11T15:43:29Z jackdaniel: yes, but rebasing with magit makes me confused till today :)
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2016-06-11T15:50:37Z phoe_krk: ...HEAD detached from origin/master
2016-06-11T15:50:44Z phoe_krk: where the hell did I just push into
2016-06-11T15:50:55Z phoe_krk: this thing is as scary as it is wonderful
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2016-06-11T15:55:54Z phoe_krk: this thing is giving me very heavy headaches
2016-06-11T15:56:28Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/phoe-krk/bordeaux-threads/commits/master shows that I have 13 commits in there, but HEAD~13 sends me flying even higher
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2016-06-11T16:13:47Z phoe_krk: oh wow, fe[nl]ix I think I did it
2016-06-11T16:14:22Z engblom: ecl -q -norc -eval '(progn (format t "Hello World!~%") (quit))'  1.47s user 0.07s system 94% cpu 1.632 total
2016-06-11T16:15:28Z engblom: If I put the same (format t "Hello World!~%") as the only statement in a project made with quickproject, compile with asdf:make-build and getting a standalone binary, which I even strip. The same task takes almost 8 seconds
2016-06-11T16:15:33Z engblom: Why?
2016-06-11T16:16:04Z engblom: That is a about 7 seconds difference
2016-06-11T16:17:20Z jackdaniel: no idea. Maybe your project creates a package and some other things around, or some other things happen
2016-06-11T16:18:23Z engblom: I have both quicklisp and quickproject in my .eclrc. Is there a chance they get included?
2016-06-11T16:18:23Z jackdaniel: or maybe there is a bug in ECL creating executables which leads to inefficiency
2016-06-11T16:19:02Z jackdaniel: maybe? put some (error "bah") in your .eclrc and try running the executable
2016-06-11T16:19:24Z engblom: I mean, if it compiles it into the executable?
2016-06-11T16:19:50Z jackdaniel: ah, no, I think it's not the case when you compile a system
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2016-06-11T16:20:45Z engblom: I renamed my .eclrc
2016-06-11T16:20:46Z engblom: ./hello  7.67s user 0.15s system 92% cpu 8.486 total
2016-06-11T16:21:52Z engblom: Hmm. That means that currently ecl is not good for creating standalone shell utilities.
2016-06-11T16:22:23Z jackdaniel: regarding shell utilities you may be interested in using cl-launch
2016-06-11T16:23:38Z engblom: Thanks, I will look at it!
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2016-06-11T16:29:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: engblom: I've also found Didier Verna's CLON very useful for command line utilities.
2016-06-11T16:30:08Z engblom: cl-launch seem to not buld on netbsd...
2016-06-11T16:31:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php
2016-06-11T16:34:16Z fiddlerwoaroof has been wondering how difficult it would be to get a lisp running on the rumpkernel
2016-06-11T16:34:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://rumpkernel.org
2016-06-11T16:35:00Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: you may talk with ryoshu (he's on freenode) – he worked with rumpkernel
2016-06-11T16:38:12Z Amaan: fiddlerwoaroof: Ooh, that looks interesting
2016-06-11T16:38:25Z Amaan: (I'd never heard of Rump Kernels before)
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2016-06-11T16:39:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Amaan: I was playing with NetBSD on my Raspberry Pi and I bumped into that
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2016-06-11T16:40:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also MirageOS (in Ocaml) and HaLVM (in Haskell) that are somewhat similar projects
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2016-06-11T16:41:49Z Amaan: If only I'd found the time to look into OCaml or Haskell yet
2016-06-11T16:43:28Z engblom: Amaan: I have written some projects in Haskell. It is a really nice language but cabal is bad. Cabal will fetch down the libraries and you often get dependency problems
2016-06-11T16:43:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: engblom: stack seems to fetch that
2016-06-11T16:43:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/fetch/fix
2016-06-11T16:43:51Z Amaan: Yeah?
2016-06-11T16:44:03Z Amaan: From all that I've heard, Haskell is "impractical"
2016-06-11T16:44:11Z Amaan: Which is kind of annoying because they never explain why
2016-06-11T16:44:29Z Amaan: Guess I should go read the Wikipedia page and understand for myself
2016-06-11T16:44:34Z Bike: people like over reductive stereotypes
2016-06-11T16:44:43Z engblom: Amaan: The impractical thing might have been because of the cabal issue. I have not looked at Haskell for some years
2016-06-11T16:45:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Haskell is "impractical" because most programmers haven't learned how to think like a Haskeller.
2016-06-11T16:46:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: You don't just have to learn a new syntax, you have to also learn a new way of thinking about the code
2016-06-11T16:46:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/the code/programming
2016-06-11T16:46:24Z phoe_krk: ^
2016-06-11T16:46:29Z engblom: Haskell force you to do functional programming. I remember when I first begun with it. The most simple problems took a day to solve because I had to think in a different way than earlier.
2016-06-11T16:46:43Z phoe_krk: which is a painful but good thing
2016-06-11T16:46:46Z Amaan: That sounds great
2016-06-11T16:46:49Z engblom: Absoultely
2016-06-11T16:46:55Z phoe_krk: broadening one's horizons is frustrating but also enlightening.
2016-06-11T16:46:57Z Amaan: Even if only as an exercise
2016-06-11T16:47:02Z phoe_krk: look, I just squashed some commits with git.
2016-06-11T16:47:12Z phoe_krk: despite me wanting to squash git instead a few moments ago.
2016-06-11T16:47:18Z Amaan adds Haskell to my never-ending list of things to check out
2016-06-11T16:47:28Z Amaan: lol
2016-06-11T16:47:28Z phoe_krk: git checkout haskell
2016-06-11T16:47:31Z phoe_krk: wait, no
2016-06-11T16:47:33Z phoe_krk: no no no no no
2016-06-11T16:47:36Z phoe_krk afks for food
2016-06-11T16:47:37Z engblom: I really recommend http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ for an easy to read introduction to Haskell.
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2016-06-11T16:48:00Z Amaan: Neat, thanks
2016-06-11T16:48:13Z Amaan: I've got to finish gigamonkey's Lisp book first, though :P
2016-06-11T16:48:20Z Amaan: One mind-bending language at a time
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2016-06-11T16:48:47Z Amaan: Lisp macros are still blowing my mind :D
2016-06-11T16:48:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, back to figuring out Hunchentoot
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2016-06-11T16:49:18Z phoe_krk: Just watch out what you do with Haskell, one day I spelled maenads instead of monads and ended up with a bunch of mad women yelling something about Bacchus and wine.
2016-06-11T16:50:00Z Amaan: Hahahaha
2016-06-11T16:50:26Z Amaan will be stealing that joke
2016-06-11T16:51:31Z engblom: Some time ago I read a joke about Microsoft. It was something about that their products will always suck, unless they begin to make vacum cleaners
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2016-06-11T17:21:26Z pjb: phoe_krk: passed some complexity, it's easier to just start a new repository.
2016-06-11T17:21:59Z pjb: Archeologists can always try to fetch the old one, if they're interested by history.
2016-06-11T17:23:21Z pjb: phoe_krk: already, checkout is a mutator. So it can't work with haskell.
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2016-06-11T17:25:55Z phoe_krk: pjb: oh God please no.
2016-06-11T17:26:04Z phoe_krk: Don't tell the haskellers to invite a non-mutational variant of Git.
2016-06-11T17:26:22Z p_l: phoe_krk: ... have you used Darcs?
2016-06-11T17:26:26Z p_l: it was very haskellish :>
2016-06-11T17:26:42Z pjb: phoe_krk: they can write their tool however they want, as long as it doesn't mutate my hard disk I'm ready to use them.
2016-06-11T17:26:55Z phoe_krk: oh no.
2016-06-11T17:26:57Z phoe_krk: it already happened.
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2016-06-11T17:31:42Z John[Lisbeth]: is there a function that produces all possible inputs to another function over time?
2016-06-11T17:31:56Z John[Lisbeth]: or rather introduces that function to all possible inputs
2016-06-11T17:33:31Z Bike: that could mean so many things
2016-06-11T17:34:13Z John[Lisbeth]: Another way to ask it is a function that produces  a series of bits that contain all possible combinations of bits within the series
2016-06-11T17:34:22Z John[Lisbeth]: sort of like pi
2016-06-11T17:34:31Z Bike: no that... doesn't help...
2016-06-11T17:34:55Z p_l: if you have known closed range of inputs, it's plain old combinatorics
2016-06-11T17:34:55Z Bike: "produce a series that contains all the bits in that series" is just recursive
2016-06-11T17:35:36Z John[Lisbeth]: Oh sorry that contains all the possible combinations of bits that are possible to exist
2016-06-11T17:36:21Z Bike: uh, well just count 0, 1, 2... and that oughta cover it.
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2016-06-11T17:36:58Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: you have to keep in mind, that at the lavel of language value isn't composed of bits
2016-06-11T17:37:11Z jackdaniel: it has it's type, value, references
2016-06-11T17:37:25Z jackdaniel: number of things which are abstraction over bits
2016-06-11T17:37:38Z John[Lisbeth]: I am assuming infinite ram in this scenario
2016-06-11T17:37:45Z John[Lisbeth]: if that helps explain the context
2016-06-11T17:38:02Z Bike: it does not
2016-06-11T17:38:05Z p_l: John[Lisbeth]: you're looking for all possible combinations of input, right?
2016-06-11T17:38:42Z John[Lisbeth]: that's one way to solve it yes
2016-06-11T17:38:51Z John[Lisbeth]: I am contemplating a supertask
2016-06-11T17:39:00Z John[Lisbeth]: one which can not be completed
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2016-06-11T17:39:49Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: it's not possible to generate all possible inputs, because this set is infinite
2016-06-11T17:40:01Z John[Lisbeth]: One possible ai would be an ai who's goal is to check all the different possible outputs coresponding to all the different possible inputs to all possible functions
2016-06-11T17:40:22Z Bike: you're going to run into uncomputability theorems pretty quick.
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2016-06-11T17:40:42Z John[Lisbeth]: it's a supertask
2016-06-11T17:40:49Z John[Lisbeth]: it can not be completed unless we break the speed of light
2016-06-11T17:41:12Z Bike: Look, can you phrase this in lisp terms, maybe?
2016-06-11T17:41:33Z jackdaniel: it sounds like a nonsense to me, but I probably don't "get it"
2016-06-11T17:41:45Z John[Lisbeth]: well imagine if my personal common lisp setup was designed for lazy evaluation
2016-06-11T17:42:03Z John[Lisbeth]: I may not be able to compute something like what I said above, but I can start to compute it and begin to watch what the output is
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2016-06-11T17:42:15Z Bike: Yes, I get that. But what are you actually doing?
2016-06-11T17:42:48Z John[Lisbeth]: finding a mathematical function that computes all possible information
2016-06-11T17:42:56Z Bike: That doesn't mean anything.
2016-06-11T17:43:13Z John[Lisbeth]: that literally means "anything"
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2016-06-11T17:43:37Z Bike: I mean that you are putting words together in an order such that the overall sentence is meaningless.
2016-06-11T17:43:39Z p_l: and nothing
2016-06-11T17:43:54Z John[Lisbeth]: if you had infinite ram and lazy evaluation you could begin running it
2016-06-11T17:44:03Z Bike: Running /what/ oh my god
2016-06-11T17:44:07Z John[Lisbeth]: the function
2016-06-11T17:44:13Z Bike: if you just want all possible bit patterns, then again, just count 0, 1, 2, ...
2016-06-11T17:44:14Z p_l: laplace function^Wdaemon?
2016-06-11T17:44:15Z Bike: that covers it!
2016-06-11T17:44:24Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: you have to really read what is information
2016-06-11T17:44:25Z Bike: won't do you any good, but there you are
2016-06-11T17:44:45Z p_l: btw, I recall snap4 having an arithmetic bug, anyone can give me some details about it?
2016-06-11T17:44:47Z jackdaniel: generating "all possible information" is just generating all infinite bit patterns and it has absolutely no meaning
2016-06-11T17:44:56Z jackdaniel: interpretation gives meaning to the information
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2016-06-11T17:45:54Z Bike: i'm guessing snap4 doesn't mean this stroller
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2016-06-11T17:48:26Z p_l: Bike: snap4 is technically "snapshot 4" of a port of VLM2 code from Alpha to ANSI C
2016-06-11T17:48:39Z Bike: how obscure
2016-06-11T17:49:20Z p_l: well known if you tried running OpenGenera on PC ;)
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2016-06-11T17:49:52Z p_l: that reminds me that I need to get a copy of Tru64 install CD, had some emulator somewhere that ran well enough to run VMS cluster
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2016-06-11T18:02:36Z Quadrescence: jackdaniel, quickutil hasn't really been maintained. There hasn't been much interest. I would be happy for someone to take over the project/maintenance completely
2016-06-11T18:03:51Z jackdaniel: Quadrescence: oh, that's a shame. I've recently learned about it – very nice idea :)
2016-06-11T18:04:05Z jackdaniel: planned to use it to back mcclims all utils.lisp files
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2016-06-11T18:04:56Z jackdaniel: (I'm sorry, I won't be able to pick any more projects right now, I'm literally full)
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2016-06-11T18:11:39Z p_l: anyone has a nice RPC (portable outside Lisp) implementation?
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2016-06-11T18:43:20Z sumosudo: would anybody know how to fix this little problem ? http://pasteboard.co/1BPp1BJu.png
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2016-06-11T18:48:28Z Bike: yeah, you just need to upgrade asdf.
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2016-06-11T18:57:35Z sumosudo: asdf is 3.1.3 and all packages are upgraded.. base is also up too date
2016-06-11T18:58:09Z Bike: os-cond was added in 3.1.5
2016-06-11T18:58:27Z Bike: like stassats said, cffi depends on this pretty new asdf macro
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2016-06-11T19:02:49Z axion: Anyone know where Shinmera has been?
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2016-06-11T19:21:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: He seems to be online in #clasp
2016-06-11T19:24:48Z axion: ah yes I see, he just hasn't been here since March according to my logs
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2016-06-11T21:21:03Z loke: Hello Lisp
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2016-06-11T21:24:27Z SpikeMaster: hello lisp
2016-06-11T21:24:36Z loke: Hello Spike
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2016-06-11T21:46:25Z phoe_krk: Is there any ASDF tutorial on complicated package definitions? I mean, defining submodules and so on.
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2016-06-11T21:47:05Z mrrtrump: whats to great about lisp anywya?
2016-06-11T21:49:08Z phoe_krk: mrrtrump: it's a way to make programming great again
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2016-06-11T21:53:03Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: rebasing is super easy (and fast) from magit just go up to the commit you want to modify and then press r i. One caveat is that it is better to stash all your changes before starting the rebase, if there any conflicts while rebasing you are in a 'detached head state' You can resolve the merge conflicts and C-c c (or git rebase --continue from cli) or if you want to abort everything run git rebase --abort a
2016-06-11T21:53:03Z PuercoPop: nd everything is undone.
2016-06-11T21:53:36Z mrrtrump: lol
2016-06-11T21:53:38Z mrrtrump: AWESOME
2016-06-11T21:53:53Z mrrtrump: java is the welfare state of the computing world
2016-06-11T21:56:33Z phoe_krk: mrrtrump: java is the clinton of the computing world
2016-06-11T21:56:41Z phoe_krk: Lisp is the way to make computing great again
2016-06-11T21:56:48Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: I'll have to learn magit.
2016-06-11T21:56:53Z mrrtrump: true
2016-06-11T21:57:11Z mrrtrump: lisp and freebsd can make computing great, again
2016-06-11T21:57:22Z loke: phoe_krk: as in "gets the jobs done, but you're wishing you were using X instead"? (X = Lisp)
2016-06-11T21:57:43Z phoe_krk: loke: ayup
2016-06-11T21:57:48Z mrrtrump: wow
2016-06-11T21:57:52Z mrrtrump: Im getting inspired
2016-06-11T21:57:58Z loke moved the servers to Freebsd. I've had it with systemd.
2016-06-11T21:58:00Z Grue`: to squash all commits since commit "foo", do "git reset foo" and then commit everything again
2016-06-11T21:58:04Z mrrtrump: me2
2016-06-11T21:58:13Z mrrtrump: fark the germn nutjob who ushed systemd
2016-06-11T21:58:19Z mrrtrump: linux should not become solaris
2016-06-11T21:58:25Z mrrtrump: it should be more like plan9
2016-06-11T21:58:37Z loke: mrrtrump: Actually, Solaris is a hellofalot better than systemd.
2016-06-11T21:58:43Z phoe_krk: mrrtrump: let's move to #lispcafe with the OS discussion
2016-06-11T21:58:48Z loke: I mean Solaris/SMF
2016-06-11T21:58:52Z phoe_krk: loke: ^
2016-06-11T21:58:53Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: once you have a good handle on the git CLI you'll see that Magit maps to it pretty much 1-1 with the Emacs customary keybindings (ej k to unstage something etc). The only think I would advise to against from the CLI is to use git commit -m "<foo>". It encourages one lines as commit messages
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2016-06-11T21:58:58Z Grue`: why is everyone responding to an obvious troll?
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2016-06-11T21:59:19Z PuercoPop: Grue`: not only obvious but recurring
2016-06-11T21:59:29Z loke: Grue`: Why not? If it's entertaining?
2016-06-11T21:59:30Z phoe_krk: Grue`: even obvious trolls end up unwinding into worthwhile discussions sometimes
2016-06-11T21:59:43Z mrrtrump: I never troll
2016-06-11T21:59:46Z Grue`: non-lisp related discussions
2016-06-11T21:59:48Z mrrtrump: Im a geinus
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2016-06-11T21:59:53Z mrrtrump: megagenisu in fact
2016-06-11T22:00:10Z loke: Every once in a while i need to get the latest systemd annoyance off my chest, and using replying to a troll is a good way to do it.
2016-06-11T22:02:39Z mrrtrump: I use ublock for that
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2016-06-11T22:07:51Z DeadTrickster: systemd is a strange beast
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2016-06-11T22:08:27Z DeadTrickster: looks like lisp-style design everything in one place, isn't ?
2016-06-11T22:08:42Z DeadTrickster: like unix vs mit
2016-06-11T22:09:13Z p_l: no it's not
2016-06-11T22:09:30Z p_l: it's an unholy abomination that has little to do with Lisp
2016-06-11T22:09:34Z p_l: or MIT
2016-06-11T22:09:40Z p_l: (or PCLSR)
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2016-06-11T22:10:54Z p_l actually got poorer $50 due to systemd...
2016-06-11T22:11:13Z DeadTrickster: ouch
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2016-06-11T22:21:50Z phoe_krk: Anyway - are there any tutorials for more complicated ASD files, about modularity/subpackages in particular?
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2016-06-11T22:28:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Out of curiosity, has anyone managed to get a lisp running on NetBSD/arm?
2016-06-11T22:29:23Z jackdaniel: yes, engblom
2016-06-11T22:29:31Z jackdaniel: he runs ECL
2016-06-11T22:30:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: For arm?
2016-06-11T22:30:37Z jackdaniel: yes
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2016-06-11T22:30:50Z jackdaniel: raspberry pi afair
2016-06-11T22:31:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'll need to try again sometime, I kept running into problems building lisp for netbsd
2016-06-11T22:31:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: on a raspberry pi
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2016-06-11T22:56:16Z ejbs: ... (declare (integer i)) (mod i 10) gives the following derived function type in SBCL: (FUNCTION (INTEGER) (VALUES (INTEGER -9 19) &OPTIONAL))
2016-06-11T22:56:23Z ejbs: Surely that's not correct?
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2016-06-11T23:01:12Z ejbs: Well, technically it is correct. It just could be "more" correct
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2016-06-11T23:01:46Z mrrtrump: werc.cat-v.org now why are lisp web site makers better than that?
2016-06-11T23:02:02Z drmeister: Is it a shortcoming of CL that it doesn't have nested package names?
2016-06-11T23:02:23Z jackdaniel: drmeister: hierarchicacl package names are implemented in some lisps
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2016-06-11T23:02:38Z jackdaniel: allegro introduced it and ecl also has such thing
2016-06-11T23:02:50Z drmeister: Ok
2016-06-11T23:03:21Z drmeister: Is there any value to them?
2016-06-11T23:04:14Z jackdaniel: I think they were implemented because some users valued them
2016-06-11T23:04:29Z jackdaniel: in ecl feature is called :RELATIVE-PACKAGE-NAMES
2016-06-11T23:06:50Z ejbs: drmeister: It helps with package name pollution. You could give every version of your package a new subpackage to avoid name collisions when two libraries depend on different versions of your package
2016-06-11T23:07:00Z mrrtrump: hmmm
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