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2016-06-07T01:54:17Z pillton: mop ensure-class
2016-06-07T01:54:17Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ensure-class.html
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2016-06-07T02:05:19Z pillton: "The :direct-default-initargs argument is a list of canonicalized default initialization arguments."
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2016-06-07T02:05:36Z pillton: Is there no definition of "canonicalized default initialization arguments"?
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2016-06-07T02:08:52Z pillton thinks so since SBCL and CMUCL order the elements differently.
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2016-06-07T02:10:43Z Bike: cmucl puts the initfunction first or something?
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2016-06-07T02:55:40Z pillton: Bike: Yeah.
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2016-06-07T03:12:53Z Roybattius: anybody taken a look at stanza http://lbstanza.org/index.html ...looks like a worthy successor to Dylan :)
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2016-06-07T03:36:42Z akkad: how does one blast/remove any context of a package to reload it?
2016-06-07T03:37:02Z pillton: clhs delete-package
2016-06-07T03:37:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_del_pk.htm
2016-06-07T03:37:09Z Bike: a system can execute arbitrary code, so you can't un-execute it, in general
2016-06-07T03:37:24Z Bike: but deleting packages often goes a long way, yeah
2016-06-07T03:37:59Z akkad: well (ql:quickload :my-package)(my-package:test) => what I want, if I repeat this, I get different results. trying to get the determinism without a full repl restart
2016-06-07T03:38:12Z pillton: That can't be done.
2016-06-07T03:38:23Z akkad: k
2016-06-07T03:38:42Z akkad: even if all state is within my package?
2016-06-07T03:39:17Z akkad: thanks. saved me a lot of wasted time trying to make it work
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2016-06-07T03:40:11Z Roybattius: I was just wondering what a CL implementation of the same philosophy as something like React would look like
2016-06-07T03:40:54Z akkad: you mean no gc?
2016-06-07T03:41:07Z pillton: akkad: Loading something once and then reloading it may produce different results.
2016-06-07T03:42:18Z pillton: akkad: An implementation with first class environments would be required to solve that problem.
2016-06-07T03:42:19Z akkad: Roybattius: https://github.com/wolfgangj/bone-lisp/ maybe?
2016-06-07T03:43:05Z akkad: pillton: yeah it makes sense. more reason to stick to delivery/cat *.lisp|sbcl
2016-06-07T03:43:42Z pillton: There is (asdf:compile-system "blah" :force t).
2016-06-07T03:44:19Z pillton: ...after you restarted your implementation.
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2016-06-07T03:44:57Z akkad: k thanks
2016-06-07T03:45:11Z Roybattius: meant the front-end view library by Facebook.  https://facebook.github.io/react/
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2016-06-07T03:48:34Z Roybattius: I don't know much about CL these days, but remember the hot-reloading (that React does) which is an awesome development envrionment, and CL's condition system
2016-06-07T03:49:11Z pillton: akkad: I often wonder about these issues associated with the global environment.
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2016-06-07T04:28:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-06-07T04:29:01Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-06-07T04:30:16Z SumoSudo: (defun coffee (strength nil 10) (inbibe :coffee (brew strength)))
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2016-06-07T04:31:00Z beach: You can't use NIL or 10 as parameters.
2016-06-07T04:31:14Z SumoSudo: thats how early it is.
2016-06-07T04:32:01Z SumoSudo: how would one set default params when no parameter is passed to the function?
2016-06-07T04:32:19Z Bike: it has to be an optional or key parameter
2016-06-07T04:32:29Z beach: (defun bla (&optional (param1 nil) (param2 10)) ...
2016-06-07T04:33:26Z SumoSudo: (defun coffee (&optional (strength 10)) (inbibe :coffee (brew strength)))
2016-06-07T04:33:28Z SumoSudo: cool
2016-06-07T04:33:33Z SumoSudo: it works
2016-06-07T04:33:40Z SumoSudo: the coffee is great
2016-06-07T04:39:58Z beach: It was.  Finished it.
2016-06-07T04:40:15Z beach: Anyway, it looks like it may be possible for jackdaniel to work on Cleavir.
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2016-06-07T04:41:31Z beach: I have been looking for an "apprentice" for that kind of stuff since I have limited (but not necessarily very short) remaining life expectancy and I also have more projects than I can finish in that period of time.
2016-06-07T04:44:48Z pillton: That is great.
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2016-06-07T04:46:43Z beach: Yes, I am very pleased with that possibility.
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2016-06-07T06:24:41Z engblom: Rather than spending the time on learning LISP, I have had to work with 3D modelling because of thight schedule. I am normally working with openscad (you create modells by writing small programs). Now I wonder if there is any similar product with LISP, so I could have a chance to play with LISP while actually getting my work done
2016-06-07T06:26:28Z engblom: I know autocad got something with Lisp, but it is not a for free product
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2016-06-07T06:28:16Z jackdaniel: engblom: check out "gendl"
2016-06-07T06:28:21Z jackdaniel: gendl.com I suppose
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2016-06-07T06:32:44Z engblom: jackdaniel: Thanks, will check it up
2016-06-07T06:39:26Z engblom: jackdaniel: Sadly, it looks like gendl needs smlib for creating STL-files. Smlib appears to be a commercial product
2016-06-07T06:40:11Z engblom: STL-files are needed for 3D-printing
2016-06-07T06:40:19Z jackdaniel: engblom: I don't know much about 3d etc, just pointed you to product I know that exists :)
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2016-06-07T07:07:15Z flip214: since net.telent.date says its deprecated, what should I use for date/time string parsing?
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2016-06-07T07:11:06Z Bike: local-time?
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2016-06-07T09:28:35Z zhangss: what?
2016-06-07T09:30:44Z igam: how?
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2016-06-07T09:33:35Z papachan: morning
2016-06-07T09:38:01Z reepca`: night
2016-06-07T09:38:50Z Munksgaard: g'day
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2016-06-07T09:41:48Z papachan: reepca`: are you in japan?
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2016-06-07T09:48:33Z papachan: how i can get the absolute path from where the project is located? i am loading it when slime start but it dont find the file inside my project.
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2016-06-07T09:51:23Z jackdaniel: papachan: (asdf:system-definition-pathname 'system-name)
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2016-06-07T09:52:25Z reepca`: papachan: nah, I'm just going to sleep at 5:00 in the morning. The summer is a great time to be a student :~)
2016-06-07T09:53:24Z papachan: reepca`: :)
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2016-06-07T09:55:46Z papachan: jackdaniel: ah nice
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2016-06-07T09:57:30Z jackdaniel: papachan: if I want to know something about the system I type in slime '(asdf:[TAB]' and search the function names for something what may help
2016-06-07T09:57:44Z jackdaniel: if not, I dig deeper :)
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2016-06-07T10:08:36Z papachan: slime autocomplete said: we recommend to use asdf:system-source-file instead
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2016-06-07T10:14:45Z jackdaniel: it does say such things? o_O
2016-06-07T10:15:01Z jackdaniel: never saw it, but I have a stock slime, nothing tweaked, enabled whatsoever
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2016-06-07T10:26:39Z papachan: nice. i used cl-fad and it work cool
2016-06-07T10:26:50Z papachan: jackdaniel: look
2016-06-07T10:29:00Z papachan: https://dl2.pushbulletusercontent.com/i9nA3XTXlGochFlxiFUXJXuBdD8dy1Y0/Selection_623.png
2016-06-07T10:30:10Z arbv: papachan: What colour scheme do you use?
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2016-06-07T10:32:14Z papachan: arbv: i use this one : https://github.com/NicolasPetton/zerodark-theme
2016-06-07T10:32:53Z jackdaniel: this looks weird given my emacs experience, I have a separate buffer (which is ugly, I'd love to have such tooltip:)
2016-06-07T10:33:38Z papachan: ah the tooltip
2016-06-07T10:34:00Z papachan: its the autocomplete thing i think
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2016-06-07T10:34:42Z arbv: papachan: Thank you! Looks nice.
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2016-06-07T10:35:12Z jackdaniel: yeah, and I have autocompletion in a separate buffer :) but I'm sure it may be easily tweaked if someone really wants to
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2016-06-07T12:47:41Z get_drunk: are there any good alternatives to quicklisp?
2016-06-07T12:48:21Z Xach: get_drunk: I haven't heard about any that are very actively maintained. clbuild (maybe called clbuild2 now?) might be useful.
2016-06-07T12:48:22Z jackdaniel: get_drunk: nope, it's the only maintained and working package manager
2016-06-07T12:48:49Z jackdaniel: oh, you have an expert attention, so I'll keep quiet :)
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2016-06-07T12:49:35Z get_drunk: bummer
2016-06-07T12:49:36Z Grue``: bring back asdf-install! (said no one ever)
2016-06-07T12:49:49Z get_drunk: yeah, I mean anything but ql would be nice
2016-06-07T12:50:13Z get_drunk: I want to port some racket projects to CL, but giving up PLaneT support hurts
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2016-06-07T12:50:43Z jackdaniel: get_drunk: is there something particularily broken with ql or you just don't like it?
2016-06-07T12:50:57Z White_Flame: or what does racket's manager do that ql is missing?
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2016-06-07T12:51:54Z Xach: Probably many many things
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2016-06-07T12:52:01Z get_drunk: ^
2016-06-07T12:52:15Z Xach: Quicklisp is better than what was before, but not complete by a long shot.
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2016-06-07T12:52:55Z White_Flame: get_drunk: I, and presumably many others here, aren't familiar with the racket ecosystem, so "not good enough" isn't really descriptive
2016-06-07T12:53:14Z White_Flame: but yeah, quicklisp is relatively young, though it works to automate the CL cases
2016-06-07T12:53:22Z get_drunk: I dont want my build to have to trust quicklisp.org
2016-06-07T12:53:28Z Xach: it is old enough to start kindergarten
2016-06-07T12:53:46Z Xach: get_drunk: what would you prefer to trust?
2016-06-07T12:53:49Z jackdaniel: get_drunk: quicklisp provides bundles, so you don't have to
2016-06-07T12:53:51Z jackdaniel: only for prototyping
2016-06-07T12:53:52Z get_drunk: I trust PLaneT an order of magnitude more than I trust zach, for all his hard work
2016-06-07T12:53:59Z Xach: Fair enough
2016-06-07T12:54:10Z Xach: The short answer is there is nothing better available for CL right now.
2016-06-07T12:54:20Z Xach: And I don't think anyone is working on it, but maybe they're doing it in secrecy.
2016-06-07T12:54:30Z get_drunk: I mean dont get me wrong, I like CL a lot, but planet has years and years of reputable operation
2016-06-07T12:54:35Z H4ns: let alone something that would be "more trustworthy", whatever that is.
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2016-06-07T12:54:37Z get_drunk: and zach is just some guy, not in a derogatory sense
2016-06-07T12:54:40Z White_Flame: so it's not really a feature thing?
2016-06-07T12:54:54Z get_drunk: I dont use any of the advanced planet features
2016-06-07T12:54:57Z get_drunk: but other people do
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2016-06-07T12:55:07Z get_drunk: my projects arent complicated in that sense
2016-06-07T12:55:22Z White_Flame: hmm, first search hit: "This page is for legacy support of PLaneT, Racket's deprecated, old package system. All new work should use the new Racket package system instead."
2016-06-07T12:55:47Z jackdaniel: get_drunk: you may create a bundle and verify the sources, or put all of it in asdf's central registry and you don't need package manager at all.
2016-06-07T12:55:48Z H4ns: get_drunk: you can stop right here.  when you're looking for something other than ql, but more trustworthy, then you won't find anything.
2016-06-07T12:56:35Z get_drunk: the new planet is just a new interface
2016-06-07T12:56:38Z jackdaniel: also fwiw quicklisp supports 3rd party distributions, but it's not documented (cl21 distributes itself that way I think)
2016-06-07T12:56:58Z jackdaniel: s/distributions/repositories/
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2016-06-07T12:58:07Z get_drunk: what sort of local support does quicklisp have? what if I just gathered my dependencies by hand, to be sure that the checksums are ok, would that work?
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2016-06-07T12:58:43Z Xach: get_drunk: you wouldn't need quicklisp at all, at that point - you could use ASDF to load what you have fetched by hand.
2016-06-07T12:58:43Z jackdaniel: get_drunk: if you put all dependencies in the local-projects/ directory you are fine, but you don't need quicklisp at all if you want to download dependencies manually
2016-06-07T12:58:53Z Xach high-fives jackdaniel 
2016-06-07T12:58:55Z get_drunk: ok
2016-06-07T12:59:00Z jackdaniel high-fives Xach :)
2016-06-07T12:59:13Z get_drunk: so asdf does not have anything to do with actually fetching dependencies then, just organizing them?
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2016-06-07T12:59:23Z jackdaniel: get_drunk: yeah, it's CL's make
2016-06-07T12:59:28Z get_drunk: ah
2016-06-07T12:59:29Z get_drunk: ok
2016-06-07T12:59:42Z jackdaniel: make on steroids, but you know what I mean
2016-06-07T12:59:43Z get_drunk: sorry im not real familiar with CL stuff, so im sure I seem pretty dumb rn
2016-06-07T13:00:01Z jackdaniel: not at all
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2016-06-07T13:00:29Z jackdaniel: you just seem unfamiliar with this stuff
2016-06-07T13:00:48Z Xach: Yeah, ASDF does the work of planning how to load a system and executing the plan. Quicklisp is responsible for fetching missing prerequisite systems and making them available to load.
2016-06-07T13:00:56Z Xach: And some other stuff.
2016-06-07T13:01:35Z White_Flame: and QL calls ASDF for you
2016-06-07T13:01:56Z jackdaniel: get_drunk: to boost your work and to avoid using quicklisp at the very and you may consider using bundles (https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html)
2016-06-07T13:02:06Z jackdaniel: s/very and/very end/
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2016-06-07T13:03:27Z Xach: Hmm, is there a way to get a file's mode in CCL?
2016-06-07T13:04:14Z get_drunk: ultimately, im going to just have a series of git servers that I'll be fetching from, verifying the checksum, and then using asdf to actually build everything so that it can run
2016-06-07T13:04:18Z Xach: ccl::copy-file-attributes looks like it uses :: and % and %% things. Wondering if there's a supported, external function for it.
2016-06-07T13:04:31Z get_drunk: I can crap most of that out with some perl, and then asdf seems to do what I need
2016-06-07T13:04:40Z H4ns: Xach: #_stat?
2016-06-07T13:05:07Z Xach: ;;; On Linux, "stat" & friends are implemented in terms of deeper,
2016-06-07T13:05:07Z Xach: ;;; darker things that need to know what version of the stat buffer
2016-06-07T13:05:07Z Xach: ;;; they're talking about.
2016-06-07T13:05:22Z H4ns: *shiver*
2016-06-07T13:05:22Z Xach: from ccl/level-1/linux-files.lisp
2016-06-07T13:05:55Z Xach: I think I may punt to calling chmod --reference instead
2016-06-07T13:06:02Z White_Flame: get_drunk: so is your use case to combine stuff hosted through QL with stuff you need to get straight from github?
2016-06-07T13:06:14Z White_Flame: erm, through git, not github
2016-06-07T13:06:22Z get_drunk: yes
2016-06-07T13:06:32Z White_Flame: ok, those are independent
2016-06-07T13:06:35Z get_drunk: but I would like to make sure that things arent mitm'd in the mean time
2016-06-07T13:07:03Z White_Flame: well, downloading code is just a 1-time process
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2016-06-07T13:07:37Z White_Flame: what's the trusted non-mitm source for all the other packages you'll be getting not from your already-known git servers?
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2016-06-07T13:07:44Z White_Flame: regardless of if it's through ql or other means?
2016-06-07T13:07:59Z get_drunk: I can check the sums manually for libraries I need
2016-06-07T13:08:07Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: the current stat() and struct stat on Linux are at version 3, but the kernel keeps compatibility with the previous two ABI versions
2016-06-07T13:08:14Z get_drunk: and then I can check the sum of what I get from our git servers with people onsite
2016-06-07T13:08:28Z get_drunk: and then thats it, basically
2016-06-07T13:08:47Z White_Flame: get_drunk: most of the QL packages are backed by a github project, if you trust their https
2016-06-07T13:09:18Z dim: and QL compute then checks sums too
2016-06-07T13:09:20Z White_Flame: however, the specific version in QL is (somewhat) verified to build against everything else in QL.  the current master on github might be off a bit
2016-06-07T13:09:42Z fe[nl]ix: on Linux, the compatibility boundary is the syscall layer, everywhere else(BSDs, OSX, Win32) it's libc/win32.dll
2016-06-07T13:09:47Z get_drunk: but the QL sums are in the same repository as the libraries themselves, no?
2016-06-07T13:10:31Z dim: get_drunk: have a look at http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp/2016-05-31/releases.txt
2016-06-07T13:10:40Z Xach: Quicklisp is not secure enough.
2016-06-07T13:10:44Z Xach: It doesn't check the sums.
2016-06-07T13:10:54Z get_drunk: I didnt know if it did or not
2016-06-07T13:11:09Z get_drunk: how often does that releases.txt happen?
2016-06-07T13:11:10Z White_Flame: with any system, if the source of sums can be compromised along with the payloads, sums don't mean much
2016-06-07T13:11:12Z dim: Xach: oh? I do check in ql-to-deb...
2016-06-07T13:11:16Z Xach: dim: excellent
2016-06-07T13:11:39Z Xach: get_drunk: once published, a releases.txt is not changed
2016-06-07T13:11:43Z get_drunk: if that was put out every month, with the sums for every library, than I would only ever be a month behind if I used quicklisp for everything and then checked the sums by hand
2016-06-07T13:11:47Z Xach: get_drunk: a monthly updated file points to the latest releases.txt
2016-06-07T13:11:50Z White_Flame: and if somebody's mitm'ing your payload stream, chances are they're mitm'ing your checksum stream as well
2016-06-07T13:11:54Z get_drunk: i gotcha, so its monthly
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2016-06-07T13:12:07Z get_drunk: thats the thing
2016-06-07T13:12:08Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/blob/master/src/ql.lisp#L113 if you're interested Xach
2016-06-07T13:12:21Z Xach: White_Flame: the goal is to have the checksum data signed by a release key.
2016-06-07T13:12:31Z Xach: White_Flame: then verify all downloads agains the checksum.
2016-06-07T13:12:49Z get_drunk: that'd be rad
2016-06-07T13:12:52Z Xach: and also have an easy upgrade to https post-install.
2016-06-07T13:13:06Z Xach: If the fundraiser this summer is successful, that's what I hope to work on next.
2016-06-07T13:14:44Z get_drunk: ipfs would fix all this
2016-06-07T13:15:28Z Xach: I will use it at the earliest possible convenience
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2016-06-07T13:16:11Z get_drunk: not what I meant, but yeah it'd be sort of neat
2016-06-07T13:16:50Z get_drunk: I meant sot of in general that persistent, immutable, distributed storage would make dependency management way simpler
2016-06-07T13:17:18Z get_drunk: just pick a version and fetch and check against everyone who also stores it
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2016-06-07T13:18:19Z Xach: for what it's worth, quicklisp software archives are immutable.
2016-06-07T13:18:30Z Xach: the metadata that points to a particular set is immutable.
2016-06-07T13:18:49Z Xach: only a "subscription" metadata file is updated periodically to point to the metadata for the most recent set.
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2016-06-07T13:20:45Z get_drunk: which is great, but meaningless if there is only one source
2016-06-07T13:21:19Z get_drunk: i think...?
2016-06-07T13:21:25Z get_drunk: when you say metadata, what do u mean
2016-06-07T13:21:55Z Xach: The immutability is mostly so you can go back to, say, a working development environment for a project that is a few years old and needs work.
2016-06-07T13:22:15Z Xach: The metadata is the checksums, file sizes, provided system lists, required system lists.
2016-06-07T13:22:45Z Xach: This is yet another design in reaction to the old ways, which kept you permanently on a bleeding edge.
2016-06-07T13:24:53Z get_drunk: I see, like how rake lets you specify gem versions, you could use old versions known to work until new ones are trusted?
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2016-06-07T13:25:19Z Xach: Sort of.
2016-06-07T13:25:58Z H4ns: only that it is more like "i need a version that works with all the other stuff that i used back then" rather than "i need a version that i \"trust\""
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2016-06-07T13:26:41Z Xach: qlot is a project (not mine) that adds a layer on top of that, so you can start working on a project, then extract enough info about its dependencies to reproduce them exactly on some other person's system, even if they involve non-QL stuff.
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2016-06-07T13:30:15Z get_drunk: oh
2016-06-07T13:30:17Z get_drunk: that is neat
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2016-06-07T13:43:33Z dim: well you can bundle what you have too
2016-06-07T13:43:52Z dim: next pgloader release is going to include a bundle to ease packagers lifes
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2016-06-07T13:48:09Z get_drunk: but all of the sums are from the same source as the bundles
2016-06-07T13:48:26Z get_drunk: if a sum is wrong, then the whole bundle is probably ruined
2016-06-07T13:48:51Z get_drunk: however, if there were other people hosting the releases.txt each month that could be checked against
2016-06-07T13:49:23Z get_drunk: then it'd be possible to have some idea whether or not a fetch was compromised
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2016-06-07T13:54:08Z warweasle: XachX_: Thanks for the plug.
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2016-06-07T13:55:22Z Xach: warweasle: no problem. i was browsing my subscriptions and was struck by all the recent nice lisp videos.
2016-06-07T13:55:52Z Xach wants a cut of the massive YT revenue though
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2016-06-07T13:56:47Z warweasle flips Xach a quarter...100% of all gross profit.
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2016-06-07T13:58:29Z get_drunk: its insane that youtube actually makes people rich
2016-06-07T13:59:25Z warweasle: get_drunk: If I can only get a few thousand followers I can live the dream too.
2016-06-07T14:00:45Z get_drunk: we need to get you a proper microphone
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2016-06-07T14:05:37Z igam: get_drunk: if each man gave me $0.1, I'd be rich too. I'd have $350 millions.
2016-06-07T14:06:18Z get_drunk: shit I forgot to mail youtube my check for$ 0.1
2016-06-07T14:06:26Z warweasle: get_drunk: I just got a new headset...but my last video didn't record the sound.
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2016-06-07T14:07:28Z get_drunk: ah
2016-06-07T14:07:35Z get_drunk: yeah the scratchy audio makes it painful
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2016-06-07T14:08:57Z warweasle: get_drunk: I wanted to stream my gamejam but, there were issues and I had to drop out.
2016-06-07T14:09:12Z get_drunk: there is always next time
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2016-06-07T14:09:26Z get_drunk: making a good game is more important than people watching you make a game
2016-06-07T14:10:02Z warweasle: I want to keep working on it. I really like the idea and I want to play it. Pinball meets tron/captain america.
2016-06-07T14:15:32Z get_drunk: I am making a game with lua+love2d lately. its a lot of fun. games seem so easy to develop from the outside looking in, but there's a lot going on that I hadn't thought of
2016-06-07T14:15:39Z get_drunk: lot of fun, though
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2016-06-07T14:21:45Z warweasle: get_drunk: I don't just tell people I make videogames, they think I'm immature. I tell them I make art, music for my games.
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2016-06-07T14:22:12Z get_drunk: who cares what they think though
2016-06-07T14:22:24Z get_drunk: if you are a game developer, than thats what you do
2016-06-07T14:22:48Z hjudt: PuercoPop: i've played around with your suggestion, spinneret. while it does pretty-print code nicely, it has problems with closing tags. e.g try this: (with-html (:table (:tr (:th "Header"))))
2016-06-07T14:23:30Z hjudt: cl-markup does this nicely
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2016-06-07T14:30:01Z igam: warweasle: Look like an idiot in the eyes of a fool is gourmet delight. (Georges COURTELINE)
2016-06-07T14:31:23Z warweasle: igam: depends if I'm trying to get laid by the "fool".
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2016-06-07T14:34:20Z warweasle: igam: Not that that is working either.
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2016-06-07T14:39:46Z Grue``: hjudt: lol, I have never heard of this spinneret lib, it's hilariously buggy
2016-06-07T14:39:52Z Grue``: newer is not always better
2016-06-07T14:40:34Z flip214: Grue``: that goes without saying, in a channel dedicated to a >50 yr old programming language.... ;)
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2016-06-07T15:32:49Z edgar-rft is >50 year old, too, but that doesn't help either :-(
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2016-06-07T15:43:59Z moore33: edgar-rft: Welcome to the over-50 Lispers club!
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2016-06-07T16:05:36Z edgar-rft: moore33: thank you for making me feel like my own grandpa :-)
2016-06-07T16:06:29Z moore33: You're only as old as the programming language you use.
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2016-06-07T16:11:06Z jackdaniel: hey, I'm younger than my language!
2016-06-07T16:13:14Z jasom: ah, this is one place I can still feel young.  I think I'm down to under 10 active MLB players that are older than me.
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2016-06-07T16:15:07Z igam: Some day, we should do a contest, write a program in LISP 1.5 :-)  Perhaps next ELS.
2016-06-07T16:15:41Z igam: And to feel the epoch, with this as UI: http://www.masswerk.at/google60/
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2016-06-07T16:36:28Z warweasle: Is there a library for making Finite State Machines?
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2016-06-07T16:48:00Z igam: warweasle: several.
2016-06-07T16:48:47Z igam: warweasle: for example com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dfa
2016-06-07T16:50:21Z warweasle: igam: Any in quicklisp?
2016-06-07T16:50:57Z warweasle: igam: I just found hu.dwim.util/finite-state-machine
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2016-06-07T16:53:25Z igam: warweasle: cesarum is in quicklisp.
2016-06-07T16:53:33Z igam: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum)
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2016-06-07T17:06:53Z jasom: anybody know if you can set the include paths for ecl's ffi:clines?
2016-06-07T17:08:06Z jackdaniel: jasom: yes
2016-06-07T17:08:31Z jackdaniel: clines is designed specifically to put as a toplevel form, like #include <xxx>
2016-06-07T17:08:33Z loke: How do I redraw a table after updating the underlying data in CLIM?
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2016-06-07T17:08:52Z akkad: (slime-eval '(format t "hi") :cl-user) ;; is this the right path to run cl code from emacs?
2016-06-07T17:09:14Z jackdaniel: jasom: all clines statements regardless where located in the source code are  put at the top of a corresponding C file
2016-06-07T17:09:57Z jasom: jackdaniel: no I mean like pass extra -I to the compiler
2016-06-07T17:10:18Z jackdaniel: ah, no, you need to use a dynamic variable which compiler uses
2016-06-07T17:10:21Z jackdaniel: wait a sec
2016-06-07T17:11:18Z jackdaniel: compiler:*user-cc-flags* and compiler:*user-ld-flags*
2016-06-07T17:11:47Z jasom: thanks, if I bind those around the asdf:make-build I should be good to go?
2016-06-07T17:11:53Z jackdaniel: yeah
2016-06-07T17:12:04Z jackdaniel: it's a string I think, but not 100% sure
2016-06-07T17:12:15Z jackdaniel: yeah, a string
2016-06-07T17:12:28Z jasom: not a list of strings?
2016-06-07T17:12:43Z jackdaniel: loke: did you try clim:redisplay ?
2016-06-07T17:12:47Z jasom: the ld-flags are no problems since aasdf:make-build takes those
2016-06-07T17:12:55Z jackdaniel: jasom: hm, maybe a list
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2016-06-07T17:13:36Z loke: jackdaniel: Nope. :-)
2016-06-07T17:13:42Z loke: I didn't know about it
2016-06-07T17:14:12Z jackdaniel: jasom: it's a string (checking on sourcecode)
2016-06-07T17:14:14Z loke: jackdaniel: Is CLIM thread-safe? I need to issue a redsiaply after a thread has finished loading some data.
2016-06-07T17:14:29Z jackdaniel: loke: no idea ;) but it uses threads
2016-06-07T17:15:06Z jackdaniel: jasom: but this may change in a future
2016-06-07T17:15:37Z jackdaniel: but the change will be probably a backward compatible (so it will accept additionally a list)
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2016-06-07T17:16:59Z loke: jackdaniel: What do I pass to CLIM;REDISPLAY? I only have a frame, but it accepts two parageters, a RECORD and a STREAM.
2016-06-07T17:18:02Z jackdaniel: loke: I'm sorry, but I don't know that
2016-06-07T17:18:08Z jackdaniel: I was just aware, that such function exists
2016-06-07T17:19:15Z jackdaniel: there is also redisplay-frame-pane which takes a frame (application-frame object) and a pane to update
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2016-06-07T17:21:37Z PuercoPop: hjudt: that is not a problem with closing tags, spinneret targets html5. In html5 some end tags may be omitted, td is one of those tags. Same with <p>, try for ex (with-html (:p "One") (:p "two")).
2016-06-07T17:23:00Z PuercoPop: hjudt: if you want it to close all tags you have set *end-tag-optional* to an empty list
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2016-06-07T17:24:15Z PuercoPop: (scratch my last suggestion)
2016-06-07T17:24:34Z loke: sjhdsjdhsdkjhsakjdh
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2016-06-07T17:31:30Z Grue``: huh, I never heard that tags like thead are optional to close. it's almost like not closing your parentheses ;)
2016-06-07T17:31:42Z PuercoPop: Ok, modifying the *end-tag-optional* works if you redefine all tags (spinneret::define-all-tags). But it doesn't seem like a good decision to not close tags, especially as when they can be omitted is context sensitive and not properly checked by spinneret
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2016-06-07T17:34:31Z PuercoPop: Grue``: yeah, I'm not a fan of the decision, especially if thead end tag may be omitted if the next tag is a tbody or a tfoot. If I was writting html by hand I would just close the tag instead of keeping track of the conditions when I may not do it.
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2016-06-07T18:09:35Z cmos: is there any builtin shortcut for (let ((foo (if foo foo bar))))? i.e., i'm looking to define foo as bar if and only if foo is currently nil
2016-06-07T18:09:50Z cmos: builtin / standard
2016-06-07T18:10:25Z Xach: cmos: (let ((foo (or foo bar))) ...)
2016-06-07T18:10:42Z blub: (unless foo (setf foo bar))
2016-06-07T18:12:16Z cmos: blub, is setfing a variable that may not yet exist well-defined?
2016-06-07T18:12:33Z cmos: Xach, thanks, you're right that that's a cleaner option…it would be nice to only have to write foo once, though
2016-06-07T18:12:37Z Xach: cmos: if you're testing foo for nil, it has to already exist.
2016-06-07T18:12:44Z blub: reading a variable that isn't defined yet is an error too
2016-06-07T18:12:49Z cmos: ah, true
2016-06-07T18:13:07Z dlowe: cmos: you could put (or foo bar) in the place you are using "foo" at
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2016-06-07T18:13:19Z dlowe: instead of creating a new binding for foo
2016-06-07T18:13:36Z cmos: it's being used in multiple places after the binding, unfortunately
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2016-06-07T18:13:54Z blub: what is the context ?
2016-06-07T18:13:58Z cmos: in my case, foo is an optional parameter, so i suppose setfing it would work
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2016-06-07T18:14:13Z blub: wanting (let ((foo (or foo bar)))) seems like a code smell to me
2016-06-07T18:14:23Z blub: you can give a default value to an optional parameter
2016-06-07T18:14:35Z cmos: can the default value depend on previous parameters?
2016-06-07T18:14:43Z Bike: yes, actually.
2016-06-07T18:14:48Z cmos: ah, that's really good to know
2016-06-07T18:14:50Z cmos: that solves it, then
2016-06-07T18:14:52Z Bike: they're bound left to right.
2016-06-07T18:15:45Z cmos is still pretty new at all this
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2016-06-07T18:19:51Z Xach: welcome! we will help!
2016-06-07T18:20:55Z Amaan is new too and loves Xach's book
2016-06-07T18:21:12Z Xach: Thank you! I'm afraid I have not written any books, though.
2016-06-07T18:21:31Z Xach: ...yet!
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2016-06-07T18:23:02Z Amaan: Well, that's embarrassing :p
2016-06-07T18:23:20Z jackdaniel hears a rustle of #lisp's interest whenever Xach plans a book
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2016-06-07T18:24:07Z Amaan: Xach: I thought you were Peter Seibel. Don't remember why I got that notion anymore
2016-06-07T18:24:29Z Xach: My irc quote is on the cover of practical common lisp.
2016-06-07T18:24:39Z dlowe: Amaan: Peter Seibel is gigamonkey
2016-06-07T18:25:25Z Amaan: Ah, that would make sense!
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2016-06-07T18:43:33Z cmos: it's true that it is a very sexy book
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2016-06-07T18:45:34Z Amaan: Haha, indeed
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2016-06-07T19:57:43Z trinque: what's the right way of reading as much data as is available out of a stream?
2016-06-07T19:57:53Z trinque: I cobbled something together with read-char-no-hang, but I need binary data
2016-06-07T19:59:34Z jackdaniel: maybe read-byte chained with listen?
2016-06-07T19:59:57Z trinque: that hangs, right?
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2016-06-07T20:00:04Z trinque: looks like clisp has a read-byte-lookahead
2016-06-07T20:00:11Z trinque: which will let you know if there's a byte to be read
2016-06-07T20:00:32Z jackdaniel: do you use slime?
2016-06-07T20:00:36Z trinque: ah listen
2016-06-07T20:00:40Z trinque: looks like it does this
2016-06-07T20:00:42Z trinque: I do use slime
2016-06-07T20:01:43Z jackdaniel: it has some interfaces for polling streams I think
2016-06-07T20:02:04Z jackdaniel: but if you're fine with listen and read-byte than nvm
2016-06-07T20:02:16Z trinque: seems like it will work; I'll give it a go
2016-06-07T20:02:19Z trinque: thanks!
2016-06-07T20:02:31Z jackdaniel: sure
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2016-06-07T20:05:27Z jackdaniel: s/than/then/
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2016-06-07T20:50:26Z loke: jackdaniel: I think I haven't understood yet the ideas behind CLIM...
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2016-06-07T21:22:38Z whatahw: hello folks!
2016-06-07T21:24:13Z loke: Hello
2016-06-07T21:25:58Z whatahw: I'm relatively new to dynamic languages, because I write in C, but now I'm thinking about productivity boost in my everyday tasks. So, I'm thinking about using JavaScript or Lisp. What is more productive for a programmer?
2016-06-07T21:26:40Z loke: whatahw: That depends on what you want to do.
2016-06-07T21:27:05Z loke: There is very little overlap in use-cases for JS and Lisp. JS is generally a browser language, and it does its job pretty well there.
2016-06-07T21:27:17Z loke: (some people try to use JS on the server, but those people are insane)
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2016-06-07T21:27:59Z loke: Lisp is multi-paradigm, so it does a good job replacing anything from C to Ruby.
2016-06-07T21:29:43Z jasom: trinque: if you're reading a lot of data, read-sequence and listen is a better bet.  I don't know if it's defined, but most implementations will behave nicely if there is less data ready than the length of the sequence you provide.
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2016-06-07T21:30:09Z trinque: jasom: yeah, I naively did read-byte in a loop. I'm sure that wont be ideal
2016-06-07T21:30:35Z jasom: oh, I'm wrong.  the spec requires it to only return short in end of file conditions :(
2016-06-07T21:30:48Z jasom: trinque: are these sockets?
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2016-06-07T21:30:56Z loke: trinque: Depending on the type of stream, it may be fine. Some streams are buffered, in which case it's not too bad.
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2016-06-07T21:31:12Z jasom: loke: right, just function-call overhead for buffered streams
2016-06-07T21:31:22Z trinque: yep sockets
2016-06-07T21:31:38Z trinque: where the stream stays connected for a long time, no :eof til the thing gets shut down
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2016-06-07T21:31:43Z whatahw_: oops
2016-06-07T21:31:50Z whatahw_: something goes wrong
2016-06-07T21:31:52Z jasom: trinque: consider using something like this instead: https://github.com/markcox80/basic-binary-ipc
2016-06-07T21:31:55Z whatahw_: loke: I need to write a tools for myself, for example, a tool for managing the database, or a tool for data analyse
2016-06-07T21:32:22Z loke: whatahw: That depends on what you intend to do. There are plenty of database access libraries for CL, of course.
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2016-06-07T21:32:37Z loke: There are thousands of libraries directly loaable via Quicklisp.
2016-06-07T21:32:58Z whatahw_: loke: I bother about productivity. There are tons of libs for Node.js
2016-06-07T21:33:20Z loke: whatahw_: Yeah. Like trim-left.
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2016-06-07T21:33:49Z jasom: trinque: just make the socket with basic-binary-ipc then use read-from-stream to get whatever data is available
2016-06-07T21:34:02Z pecan: whatahw_: The only real problem with that is that you're using Node.js.
2016-06-07T21:34:14Z whatahw_: loke: so, you point is that many libs for Node.js are stupid right?
2016-06-07T21:34:21Z whatahw_: pecan: why?
2016-06-07T21:35:13Z loke: whatahw_: Well, kind of. Yes. You have tens of thousands of libraries. 0% of which are stupid. Vs. Lisp where you might have 2000 libraries, but only 20% of them are stupid
2016-06-07T21:35:25Z loke: I mean 90%, not 0% :-)
2016-06-07T21:35:38Z jasom: 90% of libraries in pretty much any language are crap
2016-06-07T21:35:44Z loke: For node.js, it's probably closer to 95% though, in my experience.
2016-06-07T21:36:02Z jasom: I don't think lisp escapes this, but you do have less crap to wade through.
2016-06-07T21:36:15Z pecan: jasom: Imo it's much less than 90% for most languages.
2016-06-07T21:36:45Z loke: jasom: Of course there are plenty of useless Lisp libraries.
2016-06-07T21:36:51Z pecan: Or at least not nearly as dramatic as in JS
2016-06-07T21:36:53Z jasom: pecan: if you have a curated source of libraries, it is well below 90%, but there's still all the libraries *not* in your curated source
2016-06-07T21:37:20Z pecan: CPAN is almost as big as npm but with a lot less shit (closer to 50%)
2016-06-07T21:37:34Z loke: jasom: I was referring to QL (curated) vs. NPM (free-for-all).
2016-06-07T21:37:53Z whatahw_: pecan: why using Node.js is a problem?
2016-06-07T21:38:15Z loke: whatahw_: One problem is that Javascript is a pretty bad programming language
2016-06-07T21:38:30Z pecan: 1) Javascript 2) miserable ecosystem 3) can't deploy native executables 4) less productive 5) not as portable 6) npm
2016-06-07T21:38:59Z whatahw_: pecan: are you sure about less productivity?
2016-06-07T21:39:27Z pecan: If you want to debate that, I'm afraid I can't help you.
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2016-06-07T21:39:56Z jasom: even JS developers agree it's pretty bad, which is why the next standard changes so much.
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2016-06-07T21:40:23Z whatahw_: but, folks, as far as I know, some well-known lispers switched to Js, for example, the author of Postmodern...
2016-06-07T21:40:37Z pecan: "switched" for some value of "switched" other than the conventional meaning.
2016-06-07T21:40:38Z whatahw_: I'm not a troll, I just want to decide for myself.
2016-06-07T21:40:48Z pecan: he uses both. lots of people use both.
2016-06-07T21:40:58Z pecan: for one thing, if you want to run in the browser you have rather limited options.
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2016-06-07T21:41:27Z loke: I kinda liked this article, that mirrors my experience quite a bit:
2016-06-07T21:41:28Z loke: http://lisperator.net/blog/why-lisp/
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2016-06-07T21:45:04Z whatahw_: okay. I have a lots of libraries in C and C++, and I want to use it from dynamic language. For is better suitable for it - Lisp of Node.js?
2016-06-07T21:45:31Z pecan: cffi is really nice, I _think_ Node has something like that but I'm not sure.
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2016-06-07T21:45:54Z pecan: there's a tool to generate cffi bindings from C headers, so common lisp is probably considerably easier than node to use C from
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2016-06-07T21:49:56Z whatahw_: okay. how well Lisp is suitable for tools runnable from the shell scripts or Emacs?
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2016-06-07T21:50:30Z loke: whatahw_: Works fine, but it's not designed to be used that way.
2016-06-07T21:50:49Z loke: whatahw_: With Lisp, you generally have a long-running session where everything runs. You don't normally exit it.
2016-06-07T21:50:53Z pecan: loke: Huh? Common Lisp is rather good for command-line tools.
2016-06-07T21:51:25Z pecan: the whole "work-in-the-image" thing is nice for Smalltalkers who are slightly out of touch with reality.
2016-06-07T21:51:39Z H4ns: aha
2016-06-07T21:51:46Z loke: pecan: Well, I do mostly web development now, and working in the image is the way it's done.
2016-06-07T21:52:07Z pecan: loke: Ah, for servers and long-running processes that makes sense.
2016-06-07T21:52:09Z Grue`: but I very rarely restart my image, in reality
2016-06-07T21:52:12Z whatahw_: for example, I want to write a tool to which I can pass some input text (usually, from Emacs buffer for asynchronous processing).
2016-06-07T21:52:14Z loke: I rarely restart/reload the code, and being able to develop the pplication in the actual webserver is pretty neat.
2016-06-07T21:52:18Z Grue`: even when developing
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2016-06-07T21:52:57Z pecan: Grue`: Wouldn't that be _especially_ when developing? That's... kind of the point. Develop in the image, compile to native executable when you're done.
2016-06-07T21:53:14Z loke: whatahw_: Well, I wrote a tool for Emacs to help deal with Outlook-style email threads. The bulk of the processing is performed in an external program, started as a normal executable, written in Common Lisp. WOrks fine.
2016-06-07T21:53:37Z Grue`: well, sometimes I mess something up and it's easier to restart
2016-06-07T21:53:51Z loke: Here's the code, for anyone interested:
2016-06-07T21:53:52Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/gnus-outlook-style
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2016-06-07T21:59:54Z loke: Hello DeadTrickster
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2016-06-07T22:04:11Z whatahw_: loke: I've checked you tool, thanks. Could you tell me please, how much time you spend to write it? And how much time you spend for learning Common Lisp to write such a tool?
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2016-06-07T22:05:08Z loke: whatahw_: Not really comparable. I've been programming for ages. I played around with Lisp in the 90's, but didn't really get back into it until... hmm... not that long before I wrote that toold.
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2016-06-07T22:08:55Z whatahw_: what is better suitable for big data analyze - Lisp or Js or R?
2016-06-07T22:09:04Z grouzen: loke: yeah, I also took a look on it and I think it's pretty good written
2016-06-07T22:09:29Z loke: My largest Lisp project is this one:
2016-06-07T22:09:29Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato
2016-06-07T22:09:31Z jasom: loke: oh, you're the guy on HN who was talking about his slack-like service written in CL?
2016-06-07T22:09:40Z loke: jasom: Yes, that's me.
2016-06-07T22:09:46Z DeadTrickster_: loke, alright dear gray beard can you help me with emacs?
2016-06-07T22:09:49Z loke: And that's the link right there. ^^^
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2016-06-07T22:11:07Z loke: DeadTricksterWhat can I do you for?
2016-06-07T22:11:46Z DeadTrickster_: so the question (asked hopelessly on #emacs) is can buffer modified state depend on actual content not on undo ring
2016-06-07T22:11:59Z DeadTrickster_: like aba -> aa -> aba (still indicated as modified)
2016-06-07T22:12:34Z loke: DeadTrickster: I'm not entirely sure, but I think that buffer-modified is simply a flag thta can be set/unset
2016-06-07T22:12:51Z grouzen: guys, do you know any xml-schema related libraries for CL?
2016-06-07T22:13:01Z DeadTrickster_: that's totally right. and somehow undo ring manages to do just that
2016-06-07T22:13:07Z loke: In order to achieve what you want, you'd need to compare the buffer content with a reference on every modification.
2016-06-07T22:13:20Z DeadTrickster_: yeah, probably file itself
2016-06-07T22:13:26Z loke: DeadTricksterIt does that because the undo ring knows at what point it's reached the "original state"
2016-06-07T22:13:50Z jasom: DeadTrickster_: it's O(1) to see if you're in the same state as before by doing undo, it's O(N) for doing it otherwise
2016-06-07T22:13:55Z DeadTrickster_: so the maybe buffer local var will do the trick
2016-06-07T22:14:07Z DeadTrickster_: but yeah jasom is right
2016-06-07T22:14:14Z DeadTrickster_: what if file like 5 mb
2016-06-07T22:14:30Z jasom: well how long does sha-1 take on 5mb?
2016-06-07T22:14:42Z DeadTrickster_: sounds tasty. probably not so long
2016-06-07T22:15:06Z jasom: but you'd need to do it for every single edit
2016-06-07T22:15:06Z loke: DeadTrickster: You can just look at the code for undo, it'snot that compliacated.
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2016-06-07T22:15:45Z loke: If I were to implement that, I'd probably segment the buffer in parts, and then hash each part, keeping those hashes in a buffer-local variable.
2016-06-07T22:15:48Z DeadTrickster_: yeah, you know what I mean guys? Like I KNOW files is the same but it's still modified and can't be closed
2016-06-07T22:16:16Z loke: Then, when a change is made, I'll just compute the hash for that section (I could track the sections using overlays) to see if it's returned to the original state.
2016-06-07T22:16:17Z jasom: loke: then you just need to rehash the segment around the point; not a bad idea.
2016-06-07T22:16:30Z loke: Exactly.
2016-06-07T22:16:33Z jasom: loke: you can also skip calculating it if you alredy know there is a segment that is different
2016-06-07T22:16:39Z jasom: (other than the one being edited)
2016-06-07T22:16:41Z DeadTrickster_: and maintain segments on line additions/deletions
2016-06-07T22:16:41Z loke: jasom: Yes.
2016-06-07T22:17:31Z DeadTrickster_: I'll try with dumb full hash first
2016-06-07T22:17:34Z loke: You could probbaly use that idea to build something even more elaborate; tracking which lines have changed and display a marker to that effect in the gutter.
2016-06-07T22:17:41Z DeadTrickster_: 99% of my files are under 1kb
2016-06-07T22:17:58Z DeadTrickster_: loke, I believe I saw something like that already
2016-06-07T22:18:05Z DeadTrickster_: like highlight changes mode
2016-06-07T22:18:28Z loke: Probbaly. My idea can't possibly be the first one.
2016-06-07T22:18:31Z DeadTrickster_: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TrackChanges
2016-06-07T22:19:11Z DeadTrickster_: https://github.com/dgutov/diff-hl
2016-06-07T22:19:15Z DeadTrickster_: wow
2016-06-07T22:20:15Z DeadTrickster_: how these called? fringes?
2016-06-07T22:20:36Z loke: DeadTrickster: Yes, I think so. I call them gutter, but that name comes from IDEA, I think.
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2016-06-07T22:22:00Z lambdamonad:  /leave
2016-06-07T22:22:12Z jasom: vim calls them "signs"
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2016-06-07T22:24:02Z DeadTrickster_: I'm relatively young (still, I hope) and using emacs only for 10 years but emacs never stops amazing me. like you know it's still an editor
2016-06-07T22:24:23Z DeadTrickster_: probably
2016-06-07T22:24:26Z DeadTrickster_: :-)
2016-06-07T22:24:54Z DeadTrickster_: holy cow 10 years, ugh
2016-06-07T22:25:19Z jasom: I've been using some form of vi for 25 years now.  And now I feel old.
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2016-06-07T22:26:52Z DeadTrickster_: well while you are definitely older then me I must say technology looked way more one in the old good days
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2016-06-07T22:27:02Z DeadTrickster_: now only screen size differs
2016-06-07T22:27:23Z DeadTrickster_: s/one/fun
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2016-06-07T22:32:24Z loke has used emacs for over 25 years, so I'm still a noob.
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2016-06-07T22:36:26Z DeadTrickster_: yeah someone need to write AI asap
2016-06-07T22:36:37Z DeadTrickster_: esp for TL;DRing emacswiki
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2016-06-07T22:38:28Z loke: OK, I'm going to sleep now. I'm in Europe time because of vacations
2016-06-07T22:38:49Z DeadTrickster_: loke, quick question?
2016-06-07T22:39:18Z DeadTrickster_: loke, how you end up in Singapore?
2016-06-07T22:39:28Z loke: DeadTricksterWell, I got a job :-)
2016-06-07T22:39:36Z DeadTrickster_: lucky you
2016-06-07T22:39:38Z loke: Also, my wife is from there.
2016-06-07T22:39:44Z DeadTrickster_: double win
2016-06-07T22:39:51Z DeadTrickster_: bastard, sleep well )
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2016-06-07T22:41:10Z whatahw_: thanks all
2016-06-07T22:41:14Z whatahw_: goodbye
2016-06-07T22:41:45Z loke: DeadTrickster: I'm told Google is opening a development centre in Singapore, so you might want to apply there if you want to move.
2016-06-07T22:42:19Z loke: DeadTrickster: Also, we're always looking for good people, although I'm afaraid I can't offer any pure development roles.
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2016-06-07T23:00:21Z DeadTrickster_: loke, I'm good) so if you have something please do let me know
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