2016-05-31T00:00:10Z dreamaddict_: ok so before I start the project I could go in and manually add to package.lisp and then re-quickload
2016-05-31T00:00:12Z dreamaddict_: and it will be good to go
2016-05-31T00:00:21Z Bike: sure.
2016-05-31T00:00:47Z dreamaddict_: (unless I try to compile code in there first without these things being resolved, in which case I will get that strange shadowing error signal because of reader name-clash things)
2016-05-31T00:00:49Z Bike: as far as i remember, quickproject doesn't load a project as soon as it makes it, so that you can do this sort of thing.
2016-05-31T00:00:56Z dreamaddict_: ok nice
2016-05-31T00:01:08Z dreamaddict_: that is what I am trying to learn here, is how it is supposed to be used
2016-05-31T00:01:15Z Bike: redefining packages is also kind of hairy so it would be good to get it right the first time.
2016-05-31T00:01:19Z dreamaddict_: right
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2016-05-31T00:08:13Z wccoder: hey there - i was wondering if anyone had any recommendations on books for writing DSLs and compilers (from some DSL -> lisp) in CL?
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2016-05-31T00:10:27Z dreamaddict_: ok now I put (:export ...) into the options of (defpackage) in package.lisp, just after (:use ...)
2016-05-31T00:10:40Z dreamaddict_: saved, restarted slime, quickloaded...yet the symbols are not exported
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2016-05-31T00:12:16Z dreamaddict_: it works with :: notation...it's just not exporting...
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2016-05-31T00:29:31Z Bike: Can I see the defpackage form, and what you're doing?
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2016-05-31T02:21:13Z drmeister: Is there a way to get sbcl to not print its startup message?
2016-05-31T02:21:44Z drmeister: --noinform
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2016-05-31T03:01:47Z pillton: The should add it to the help string.
2016-05-31T03:01:58Z pillton: They* should
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2016-05-31T03:08:45Z sigjuice: it is in the man page
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2016-05-31T05:08:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-05-31T05:08:05Z minion: beach, memo from jasom: I have been unable to get SICL Loop to build on sbcl; first I got a package lock violation on the CL package because the defpackage didn't shadow loop, and then I got a "The value SICL-LOOP::TEMP-VAR is not of type LIST" in utilities.lisp
2016-05-31T05:09:32Z beach: jasom: Currently, in order to use SICL LOOP, you need first-class global environments to avoid the package lock.  The other problem puzzles me, because I have run the very extensive tests several times.  If there is a problem, I need to add a test case for it.
2016-05-31T05:12:40Z jasom: beach: To reproduce I just loaded it with asdf in ccl
2016-05-31T05:13:27Z beach: I see.  I have not tried it on CCL.
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2016-05-31T05:14:34Z jasom: beach: so I load it on sbcl?
2016-05-31T05:14:53Z beach: You will still get the package lock violation if you do.
2016-05-31T05:15:15Z beach: When I load it, I have first-class global environments working, so I don't have that problem.
2016-05-31T05:15:15Z jasom: so how do I actually use sicl loop from a host lisp?
2016-05-31T05:16:31Z beach: I'm not sure what to tell you.  If you want to replace the native LOOP implementation, you just ignore the package lock I guess.
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2016-05-31T05:17:04Z beach: If not, and if you don't have first-class global environments, you need to replace the file that contains the definition of the macro by one that has a different package name.
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2016-05-31T05:17:23Z Bike: so uh... how do you get first class global environments.
2016-05-31T05:17:38Z jasom: beach: can I just add loop to the list of symbols to shadow?
2016-05-31T05:17:53Z beach: I suppose that would be possible.
2016-05-31T05:18:03Z beach: I haven't tried it.
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2016-05-31T05:20:01Z beach: Bike: I am not sure it can be done independently of the rest of SICL.  When I do it, I go to the Boot subdirectory and create an instance of the BOOT class.
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2016-05-31T05:21:05Z Bike: But that's not a dependency of loop, or anything?
2016-05-31T05:21:25Z beach: Right.
2016-05-31T05:22:23Z zRecursi`: CCL builds the newest SBCL error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/317133
2016-05-31T05:23:03Z jasom: both ccl and sbcl give the same not of type LIST error
2016-05-31T05:23:51Z beach: That's very strange, given the tests.
2016-05-31T05:24:06Z beach: I'll definitely look into that.
2016-05-31T05:24:36Z zRecursi`: `make.sh --prefix=c:/z/sbcl/ --xc-host="c:/z/sbcl/bin/sbcl.exe --core c:/z/sbcl/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core --noinform --no-userinit"` ever succeeded before.
2016-05-31T05:25:27Z Bike: well, zRecursi`, it just looks like some filename parsing error.
2016-05-31T05:25:46Z Bike: just as well since "C:/z/" isn't how windows paths work, or wasn't last time i used windows
2016-05-31T05:25:47Z zRecursi`: oh
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2016-05-31T05:26:20Z zRecursi`: Bike: you mean it should be "c:\z\" ?
2016-05-31T05:26:29Z Bike: no
2016-05-31T05:27:24Z Bike: well, i don't know. but that's what the error says. it's probably not an interesting error.
2016-05-31T05:27:53Z zRecursi`: yeah
2016-05-31T05:29:28Z jasom: beach: out of curiousity, how do you currently bootstrap SICL?  I would have assumed that it would involve loading some of these in something other than SICL?
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2016-05-31T05:31:25Z beach: jasom: The way I do it is by creating an instance of the class BOOT.  It then loads the code for first-class global environments and for the compiler.  Then, loading any SICL code involves running the compiler, translating the code to HIR, then back to Common Lisp for compilation and execution on the host Common Lisp implementation.
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2016-05-31T05:31:48Z jasom: oh, interesting
2016-05-31T05:32:13Z beach: The resulting native code is executed in a SICL first-class global environment.
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2016-05-31T05:32:58Z jasom: so you have a Common Lisp backend?
2016-05-31T05:33:26Z beach: Yes.
2016-05-31T05:34:48Z beach: If you do (asdf:load-system :sicl-boot) and then (make-instance 'sicl-boot::boot) you can see some of the stuff that is going on.
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2016-05-31T05:36:19Z jasom: but SICL is supposed to work without first class global environments?
2016-05-31T05:36:31Z jasom: or rather the modules in it?
2016-05-31T05:36:31Z beach: No.
2016-05-31T05:36:43Z beach: That's an important part of SICL.
2016-05-31T05:37:32Z beach: All SICL system code assumes the existence of first-class global environments.
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2016-05-31T05:41:01Z jasom: Okay.  I didn't pick up on that from your ELS talk; it sounded like so long as you had all of common lisp, Loop should be usable
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2016-05-31T05:41:53Z jasom was hoping to use it to add LOOP to jscl
2016-05-31T05:42:36Z beach: SICL LOOP requires CLOS and LOOP.
2016-05-31T05:42:53Z jasom: jscl is written in common lisp
2016-05-31T05:43:10Z beach: But I hear it is incomplete.
2016-05-31T05:43:34Z jasom: I suppose I'd need to add CLOS to have loop working at runtime.
2016-05-31T05:44:00Z beach: Yes.  The expansion of SICL LOOP requires CLOS.
2016-05-31T05:47:21Z beach: I am sorry that I can't be of more help. :(
2016-05-31T05:48:15Z jasom: no worries
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2016-05-31T05:50:01Z jasom: definitions like this is why bootstrapping is confusing: https://github.com/davazp/jscl/blob/master/src/list.lisp#L38
2016-05-31T05:50:50Z Bike: eh, that's practically normal.
2016-05-31T05:51:06Z beach: Right, I don't do it that way in SICL, though.
2016-05-31T05:51:33Z Bike: no interpreter stubs for compiler intrinsics?
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2016-05-31T05:53:16Z beach: I basically do (cond ((null x) nil) ((consp x) (cons-car x)) (t (error...)))
2016-05-31T05:53:46Z beach: CONS-CAR is a primitive that generates a specific HIR instruction.
2016-05-31T05:53:57Z Bike: an intrinsic.
2016-05-31T05:54:09Z beach: I guess so, yes.
2016-05-31T05:54:38Z Bike: so it's not that much different, you just don't have it right on the CL level. so you don't need to worry about throwing #'cons-car around.
2016-05-31T05:56:09Z beach: Right, it's not that much different.
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2016-05-31T06:16:17Z jackdaniel: good morning o/
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2016-05-31T06:17:14Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2016-05-31T06:39:54Z pillton: beach: How do you insert cons-cdr in to the compilation environment?
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2016-05-31T06:40:24Z pillton: Actually, just the runtime environment.
2016-05-31T06:41:18Z Bike: the compiler knows what it is and generates IR from that, he said. it doesn't have to be an actual function, even.
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2016-05-31T07:42:44Z Neurostorm: How do i get started with ASDF. I have a small program and would like to use this dns library https://github.com/fjames86/dragons , how do i install this library and its dependencies, and how do i include it in my own program?
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2016-05-31T07:44:56Z Cymew: First thing would be to check if it's available via quicklisp
2016-05-31T07:45:46Z Neurostorm: It's not.
2016-05-31T07:45:58Z Cymew: No, it doesn't looks like it.
2016-05-31T07:46:57Z Cymew: Then I'd probably clone it and try to load it via quicklisp locally
2016-05-31T07:47:01Z Bike: well, basically you want to grab the files and put them in a folder asdf knows about. if you have quicklisp, an easy place is quicklisp/local-projects/.
2016-05-31T07:48:38Z Cymew: Loading it as a local-project will have the benefit of integrating nicely with most other code you probably want to use.
2016-05-31T07:48:59Z Neurostorm: I have to handle the dependencies myself?
2016-05-31T07:49:03Z Bike: nah
2016-05-31T07:49:19Z Bike: you have your system be visible to asdf, probably in a similar way, and put in an .asd file that has all the dependencies
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2016-05-31T07:49:27Z Bike: and then just load it and it'll figure things out
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2016-05-31T07:49:39Z Cymew: If you want to go vanilla ASDF, read up on this: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF
2016-05-31T07:49:54Z Cymew: Then it will sort it all out. I'd use quicklisp, though.
2016-05-31T07:50:40Z Neurostorm: Ok, yes quicklisp it is, and then manually download libraries not in quicklisp. Thanks.
2016-05-31T07:50:50Z Cymew: np
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2016-05-31T07:51:24Z Bike: i think just quickloading your library will download any dependencies, just not that one.
2016-05-31T07:51:41Z Cymew: I think it will.
2016-05-31T07:52:01Z Cymew: Someone should be Xach a medal or something.
2016-05-31T07:52:10Z Cymew: s/be/give/
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2016-05-31T07:59:57Z dreamaddict: does anyone know lucerne very well?
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2016-05-31T08:01:58Z dreamaddict: as in, what a middleware is
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2016-05-31T08:22:53Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, ping
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2016-05-31T08:27:45Z vydd: hey guys, thank you so much for posting ELS videos!
2016-05-31T08:31:30Z HeyFlash: vydd: I second that.
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2016-05-31T08:41:37Z jackdaniel: groovy2shoes: pong
2016-05-31T08:42:00Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, I want to assist you in your efforts
2016-05-31T08:42:09Z groovy2shoes: McCLIM, ECL, whatever
2016-05-31T08:42:17Z groovy2shoes: is there something I can be tasked with?
2016-05-31T08:42:24Z jackdaniel: wow! sounds great
2016-05-31T08:42:28Z jackdaniel: plenty! :P
2016-05-31T08:43:50Z jackdaniel: regarding McCLIM, what I havent tackled yet and it's pretty orthogonal to what I do now is fixing the documentation building, regarding ECL, here are tasks for 16.1.3 release milestone https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/milestones/7
2016-05-31T08:44:32Z jackdaniel: if you have any problems let me know, I'm pretty accustomed to ecl codebase. Regarding McCLIM doc, these are both tex and texinfo sources
2016-05-31T08:45:01Z jackdaniel: it would be optimal, if it builds with the recent texinfo (not 4.13a), and some instructions or a straighforward makefile
2016-05-31T08:46:00Z jackdaniel: (don't update the documentation per se yet, because changes are pending)
2016-05-31T08:46:03Z groovy2shoes: okie dokie :)
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2016-05-31T08:46:33Z jackdaniel: you made my day :-)
2016-05-31T08:46:58Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, btw, I'm stoked you're in GitLab... a few months ago I imported all my GitHub projects on GitLab, but since none of my friends are on it, I've been kinda doing things in both places :/
2016-05-31T08:47:16Z jackdaniel: I'm on gitlab and github
2016-05-31T08:47:31Z groovy2shoes: I much prefer GitLab but I haven't been able to leave GitHub entirely simply due to the network effects
2016-05-31T08:47:49Z jackdaniel: ECL is on GitLab, but McCLIM is on GitHub
2016-05-31T08:47:58Z jackdaniel: yeah, I like gitlab more as well – it's more project-centric
2016-05-31T08:48:11Z jackdaniel: github is more person-centric so to speak
2016-05-31T08:48:50Z jackdaniel: groovy2shoes: here is my McCLIM remote branch: https://github.com/dkochmanski/McCLIM , while the main repository is https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM
2016-05-31T08:49:23Z jackdaniel: when you'll pick what you want to work on let me know, so we won't do the same thing twice
2016-05-31T08:49:47Z groovy2shoes: I'll start with the docs
2016-05-31T08:50:06Z jackdaniel: cool :)
2016-05-31T08:50:07Z groovy2shoes: should I work on your remote branch or on the main repo?
2016-05-31T08:50:14Z DeadTrickster: gitlab is so slow imo
2016-05-31T08:50:28Z jackdaniel: I'd say on my remote branch, but if you want to make PR directly to Robert I think he'll be OK with it
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2016-05-31T08:53:27Z groovy2shoes: alrighty
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2016-05-31T08:53:58Z groovy2shoes: DeadTrickster, it is a little slower than github, but it's getting better all the time, and frankly I never used it for its speed ;)
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2016-05-31T08:54:27Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, after I get the docs building properly, I want to work on whatever is preventing ECL from bootstrapping SBCL
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2016-05-31T08:55:09Z groovy2shoes: and then after that...  no particular preference at this time ;)
2016-05-31T08:56:33Z jackdaniel: groovy2shoes: OK, but these may be tough to figure out what is wrong – https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/237 I think this is it atm
2016-05-31T08:57:28Z jackdaniel: when you'll start to work on it let me know, I'll write a short introduction to the C/C++ compiler module
2016-05-31T08:57:59Z groovy2shoes: if you insist... or you can leave me to figure it out ;)
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2016-05-31T08:58:38Z jackdaniel: well, it was meant to be really short, like – it's in the src/cmp directory :D
2016-05-31T08:58:51Z groovy2shoes: lol okay :D
2016-05-31T08:59:20Z jackdaniel: joking, but OK, if you want to work it out sure, I don't know cmp well so I might provide you with the wrong assumptions I have
2016-05-31T08:59:20Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, you can also rest assured that I have a hardcopy of the ANSI standard
2016-05-31T08:59:29Z groovy2shoes: and also the hyperspec
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2016-05-31T08:59:35Z jackdaniel: heh
2016-05-31T08:59:40Z groovy2shoes: and also the postscript files of the final public draft
2016-05-31T08:59:44Z jackdaniel: either way if you have questions let me know
2016-05-31T08:59:49Z groovy2shoes: and also Kent Pitman on Twitter ;)
2016-05-31T09:00:26Z jackdaniel: well, it's obvious what's wrong, but why it's wrong in a compiler it's a different question :p
2016-05-31T09:00:52Z jackdaniel: I've spend like a whole week to spot a bug with not carrying the environment between nested closures once
2016-05-31T09:03:09Z jackdaniel: for clim dev I've just registered a channel #clim (someone suggested it lately that it'd be a good idea)
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2016-05-31T09:15:03Z Neurostorm: I trying to load a library from a local quicklisp folder using (ql:quickload :dragons). Anyone known what this error means and how to get a stack trace showing the location of the error: debugger invoked on a SB-KERNEL::UNDEFINED-ALIEN-FUNCTION-ERROR in thread
2016-05-31T09:15:04Z Neurostorm: #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {100293F5D3}>:
2016-05-31T09:15:05Z Neurostorm:   The alien function "__res_ninit" is undefined.
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2016-05-31T09:30:09Z scymtym:  Neurostorm: it probably means that the dragons system tries to load and use a "foreign" (written in C) library and fails at some point. the reason could be that the library cannot be loaded at all or that the version of the library on your system does not contain the __res_ninit function.
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2016-05-31T09:53:43Z dreamaddict: does anyone know how to work lucerne?
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2016-05-31T10:12:27Z dreamaddict: is mcclim any good
2016-05-31T10:12:48Z dreamaddict: their promotional materials look well put together, whatever that means
2016-05-31T10:13:08Z groovy2shoes: it's good, and getting better all the time :)
2016-05-31T10:13:20Z groovy2shoes: soon, it will be the best
2016-05-31T10:14:31Z moore33: It's very different from anything else out there.
2016-05-31T10:19:39Z engblom: I wish someone would have been making a dwm/xmonad clone in lisp...
2016-05-31T10:20:37Z Munksgaard: engblom: There is StumpVM, a tiling window manager written in common lisp
2016-05-31T10:20:39Z groovy2shoes: engblom, are you familiar with StumpWM?
2016-05-31T10:20:45Z jackdaniel: ↑ :)
2016-05-31T10:20:54Z engblom: StumpWM is not dynamic, like dwm and xmonad
2016-05-31T10:21:06Z groovy2shoes: I haven't used it, so I dunno
2016-05-31T10:21:08Z engblom: If I open one window more, I need to manually rearrange
2016-05-31T10:21:24Z groovy2shoes: but I actually was planning to write "r7wm", a dwm-like wm in R7RS scheme :D
2016-05-31T10:21:26Z Munksgaard: I'm pretty sure that's solvable by configuration
2016-05-31T10:21:29Z engblom: stumpwm is about the same as ratpoison (another wm)
2016-05-31T10:21:59Z groovy2shoes: but I have better plans now...  to write a window manager in Evelin :p
2016-05-31T10:22:12Z engblom: What is Evelin?
2016-05-31T10:22:46Z dreamaddict: it's another language that nerds made up to amuse themselves
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2016-05-31T10:26:25Z groovy2shoes: dreamaddict, yup!
2016-05-31T10:26:43Z groovy2shoes: engblom, it's a new Lisp dialect I'm working on
2016-05-31T10:26:43Z engblom is currently using xmonad
2016-05-31T10:27:05Z groovy2shoes is currently using awesome on the laptop and dwm at work on the server
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2016-05-31T10:29:10Z dreamaddict: I don't get coding anymore
2016-05-31T10:29:30Z dreamaddict: the amount of work to manage the code doesn't seem to balance out the benefits from anything
2016-05-31T10:29:45Z dreamaddict: it's a big fat shell game to keep people from losing their minds on this stupid rock
2016-05-31T10:30:30Z dreamaddict: either that or one of Google's experiments goes rampant in about 5 years, and then we find out what things are
2016-05-31T10:30:52Z Munksgaard: That's grim, man
2016-05-31T10:33:12Z dreamaddict: seriously though
2016-05-31T10:33:37Z dreamaddict: the effort I've put into finding solutions for my problems hasn't paid for a single one of them
2016-05-31T10:33:51Z dreamaddict: and 90% of the solutions are for problems that aren't real, like infomercials
2016-05-31T10:34:18Z dreamaddict: and any of the smart solutions, most people don't use, because there's no solution to make people smarter, only to give them more options...which don't fix anything
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2016-05-31T10:35:05Z Zhivago: On the other hand, you can make people less stupi.
2016-05-31T10:35:12Z dreamaddict: you can't
2016-05-31T10:35:18Z dreamaddict: you can only provide more knowledge
2016-05-31T10:35:48Z Zhivago: No. You can provide skills that reduce stupid behavior.
2016-05-31T10:36:55Z dreamaddict: I guess so
2016-05-31T10:37:26Z dreamaddict: my perfectly functioning blank web server doesn't work, because I am too stupid to figure out how to talk to it.
2016-05-31T10:37:51Z Zhivago: Well, time to acquire some of those skills ...
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2016-05-31T10:38:00Z dreamaddict: right
2016-05-31T10:38:19Z dreamaddict: that's where I was
2016-05-31T10:38:34Z dreamaddict: does anyone know how to use lucerne
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2016-05-31T12:01:44Z pavelpenev: minion: memo for dreamaddict: Haven't written anything in lucerne, but I've read the source and played around with it a bit, what's your question?
2016-05-31T12:01:44Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dreamaddict when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-05-31T13:00:28Z francogrex: Hi I am trying to "overload"/replace a core function http://paste.lisp.org/display/317158 using sbcl. obviously I am not doing it right
2016-05-31T13:01:04Z francogrex: how can I have it right and also inhibit warnings in sbcl... I must use the same name read-line.
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2016-05-31T13:15:44Z igam: francogrex: you could specify an external format that convert crlf to newline?
2016-05-31T13:15:56Z igam: francogrex: don't do that, use without-cr:read-line instead.
2016-05-31T13:16:59Z igam: francogrex: if you want to redefine a CL function, you will have to disable the package lock first, and you will have to save the old function. eg (defvar *old-read-line* (function cl:read-line)) (sb-something:without-package-lock ("CL") (defun read-line (…) (… (funcall *old-read-line* …))))
2016-05-31T13:19:12Z francogrex: ok?
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2016-05-31T13:22:16Z papachan: morning
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2016-05-31T13:27:40Z rjmacready: hey guys
2016-05-31T13:27:57Z warweasle: papachan, rjmacready: Yo
2016-05-31T13:28:12Z rjmacready: anyone tried to build this https://github.com/franzinc/clim2 with a lisp other than allegro?
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2016-05-31T13:28:22Z warweasle is the cool guy. You can tell because I say "yo" instead of "hi".
2016-05-31T13:28:41Z rjmacready: :)
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2016-05-31T13:30:13Z jackdaniel: rjmacready: afaik it's not possible without porting it to either acl-compat or making it portable
2016-05-31T13:31:14Z rjmacready: ah
2016-05-31T13:31:21Z rjmacready: so it's not yet ported to acl-compat?
2016-05-31T13:31:30Z jackdaniel: not that I'm afraid of
2016-05-31T13:31:48Z jackdaniel: if you are interested in clim, there is #clim channel
2016-05-31T13:31:56Z p_l: AFAIK the bigger issue might be porting it to CFFI
2016-05-31T13:31:59Z moore33: That would be quite a project.
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2016-05-31T13:32:16Z moore33: Someone with a lot of time on their hands will surely do it.
2016-05-31T13:32:29Z p_l: that CLIM implementation contains a lot of FFI hooks to both WinAPI, Motif and Xlib
2016-05-31T13:32:45Z rjmacready: jackdaniel: oh nice, thx
2016-05-31T13:32:55Z jackdaniel: sure :)
2016-05-31T13:33:14Z warweasle: Have I missed the last quicklisp update?
2016-05-31T13:33:32Z XachX_: No
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2016-05-31T13:34:33Z warweasle: XachX_: Thanks. I've been AWOL and need to get some updates ready.
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2016-05-31T13:57:20Z Cymew: p_l: Thanks for the hind about working around Generas oddities. I managed to get it up finally. Now I'm thoroughly confused about the system, but for that there's lots of documentation. :)
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2016-05-31T13:57:29Z Cymew: s/hind/hints/
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2016-05-31T14:02:08Z p_l: Cymew: good to hear that :)
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2016-05-31T14:49:48Z _z: is there a faster way to look up documentation on the clhs besides using a browser? When im coding it seriously breaks my flow and train of thought to have to switch contexts
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2016-05-31T14:53:43Z Xach: _z: you can view it within emacs if you like.
2016-05-31T14:54:01Z Xach: _z: the "clhs" project in quicklisp prints info about how to set it up, i think.
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2016-05-31T14:54:56Z _z: Xach: I'll look into it, thanks
2016-05-31T14:56:09Z warweasle: Is there a list of descriptions for quicklisp packages?
2016-05-31T14:56:18Z Xach: warweasle: quickdocs.org is a good resource
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2016-05-31T14:58:05Z warweasle: Xach: Ok, I figured out how to list all packages.
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2016-05-31T15:01:00Z _z: Xach: Hm, so with "clhs" on ql, I can browse a local copy of clhs but it simply opens it up in a browser.
2016-05-31T15:01:05Z _z: But, thanks anyway
2016-05-31T15:01:13Z _z: I suppose I could set it to open up in eww.
2016-05-31T15:01:17Z Xach: _z: You can use the browser built into emacs.
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2016-05-31T15:01:29Z _z: Yes
2016-05-31T15:01:32Z Xach: I thought that was part of the clhs instructions, but if it's not, sorry. I don't think it's too hard to set up.
2016-05-31T15:02:09Z _z: Xach: It is, in the readme file.
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2016-05-31T15:06:29Z Xach: yay
2016-05-31T15:07:07Z _z: I suppose (setq browse-url-browser-function 'eww-browse-url) works.
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2016-05-31T15:13:20Z PuercoPop: also you can set the browser on a per domain basis so only clhs links open on eww
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2016-05-31T15:33:40Z CompanionCube: did anyone else get a random PM from TheCreepyPickle
2016-05-31T15:34:02Z papachan: who is he?
2016-05-31T15:34:17Z CompanionCube: hell if i know.
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2016-05-31T15:36:18Z optikalmouse: well he is a creepy pickle
2016-05-31T15:36:34Z dwchandler: THE creepy pickle
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2016-05-31T15:37:21Z optikalmouse: I wish I had macros in javascript, I'm stuck trying to jury rig a form validation lib that uses mixins...mixins which have caused method name collisions many times
2016-05-31T15:37:59Z optikalmouse: making a DSL with just plain JS is brutal
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2016-05-31T15:46:38Z engblom: CompanionCube: I also got PM from him, but I just ignored the PM
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2016-05-31T15:52:11Z francogrex: see this is an idea http://paste.lisp.org/display/317165 I want to create a macro
2016-05-31T15:52:56Z francogrex: do be able to do many things with the rea-line from a file, for example loop over lines and collect, or print the lines or et etc...
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2016-05-31T15:53:55Z francogrex: is it possible top combine this all into one macro so that (read-file "file" do-something-with-the-lines)?
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2016-05-31T15:54:56Z jasom: optikalmouse: have you considered parenscript?
2016-05-31T15:55:14Z optikalmouse: jasom: unfortunately can't, it's an ember.js app and it's got multiple coders on it
2016-05-31T15:55:18Z jasom: ah
2016-05-31T15:56:15Z optikalmouse: I'm basically trying to turn a DSL for form validation into something that uses the existing lowlevel/crap API validation library we're using and hooks into the standard Ember objects/classes
2016-05-31T15:56:22Z jasom: does your mixin library at least warn on method name collisions?
2016-05-31T15:56:28Z optikalmouse: jasom: I wish
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2016-05-31T15:56:52Z unbalancedparen: hey do you know any lisp with a hindley milner type system?
2016-05-31T15:56:57Z optikalmouse: it's really naive, it just overrides. and there's no nice after/before hooks either, it's very awkward. they basically took the idea of mixins from ruby
2016-05-31T15:56:59Z unbalancedparen: something like shen but with a bigger community?
2016-05-31T15:57:28Z jasom: unbalancedparen: I think shen has the largest community of such a language
2016-05-31T15:57:38Z unbalancedparen: jasom: :(
2016-05-31T15:57:49Z unbalancedparen: do you know any other typed lisp?
2016-05-31T15:57:53Z jasom: There's a thin sexpr frontent on top of haskell
2016-05-31T15:59:50Z dwchandler: unbalancedparen: from 13 years ago... http://comp.lang.lisp.narkive.com/j7g0mMMN/hindley-milner-in-common-lisp
2016-05-31T16:00:11Z jasom: unbalancedparen: oh typed racket, how could I forget?
2016-05-31T16:00:20Z dwchandler: Featuring Erann Gat and Peter Seibel
2016-05-31T16:00:25Z jasom: I think it supports algebraic data types,  but not sure if it's HM
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2016-05-31T16:01:44Z PuercoPop: optikalmouse: have you seen sweet.js? it is basically macros for JS as a preprocessor (like Sass). Although not the same language
2016-05-31T16:02:22Z optikalmouse: PuercoPop: I have, I'd love to use it but I'm not sure how to integrate it or if the cow-orkers will have a fit that there's macros in their JS
2016-05-31T16:03:14Z jasom: though in this case the simplest solution would be to use a better mixin library...
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2016-05-31T16:05:36Z optikalmouse: well that's what we get with a framework, it wants to do everything for you
2016-05-31T16:06:31Z optikalmouse: I wanted to do a simpler library for form validation, but we already have code using the existing library. so a meta lib makes sense, especially if we want to move away from this particular framework in the future and use something proper?
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2016-05-31T16:08:21Z PuercoPop: optikalmouse: this is off topic but basically whatever you use for JS preprocessing: grunt, gulp, webpack, etc.
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2016-05-31T16:22:35Z jasom: Having macros is quite nice; I finally got fed up with react's insane magic around state changes and switched to mithril.  It took 4 hours (and some of that was fixing two small bugs I discovered when making the change)
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2016-05-31T16:23:52Z jasom: that was a win, since I had already spent more than 4 hours trying to figure out how react was serializing a state change in my application.
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2016-05-31T16:25:48Z jasom: at some point, ease of debugability trumps features
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2016-05-31T16:48:38Z wccoder: hey there - i was wondering if anyone had any recommendations on books for writing DSLs and compilers (from some DSL -> lisp) in CL? or is it best that i look at code that does it and go from there?
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2016-05-31T16:52:02Z optikalmouse: the mcclim page is great: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/excite.html
2016-05-31T16:52:13Z optikalmouse: "Enjoy the rare experience of encountering one's first non-retarded example of something (in this case, gui programming) for the first time."
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2016-05-31T16:52:26Z optikalmouse: "McCLIM, the stuff that really boring dreams are made of."
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2016-05-31T16:59:33Z jackdaniel: optikalmouse: thanks! :-)
2016-05-31T16:59:36Z jackdaniel: there is #clim channel
2016-05-31T16:59:55Z jackdaniel: if you're interested in dev hangout or QA
2016-05-31T17:00:01Z trinitr0n: N
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2016-05-31T17:00:30Z optikalmouse: neato
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2016-05-31T17:44:19Z Xach: jackdaniel: "non-retarded" is unnecessarily offensive.
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2016-05-31T17:46:43Z Xach is so happy at how quickly quicklisp uploads with his new internet connection
2016-05-31T17:48:05Z akkad: the proper term for undelayed is 'sans retard'
2016-05-31T17:49:43Z warweasle: Xach: Do you have a date for the next ql update? I want to move stuff to the lispgames repo but I have to get a vote or something. And lisp cats are hard to herd.
2016-05-31T17:49:56Z Xach: warweasle: today. in progress, even.
2016-05-31T17:50:36Z warweasle: Xach: Gack!
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2016-05-31T18:00:58Z warweasle: Xach: Ok, clinch is updated but I'm the new squirl maintainer. Can you switch from zkat to bradwbeer?
2016-05-31T18:01:15Z Xach: warweasle: I'd be happy to in a bit. Can you make an issue for it so I don't forget?
2016-05-31T18:01:24Z warweasle: Xach: Sure.
2016-05-31T18:01:29Z zkat: ^ A+ on this on my part. Thanks, warweasle and Xach!
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2016-05-31T18:03:54Z phoe_krk: Xach: is TRIVIAL-LEFT-PAD on Quicklisp?
2016-05-31T18:04:00Z Xach: phoe_krk: no
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2016-05-31T18:04:38Z warweasle: zkat: Yes, soon my plan to take over Squirl will be complete...and with it...THE WORLD! BWA HAHAHA!!!!
2016-05-31T18:05:33Z Xach added some code to githappy last week so he can update github issue labels from the repl
2016-05-31T18:06:07Z warweasle: Xach: Cool. Does it help your workflow much?
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2016-05-31T18:06:47Z Xach: warweasle: cuts down on swapping between browser and repl quite a bit.
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2016-05-31T18:07:07Z Xach: I need to do a bit more so it presents the issue text in the repl so I can avoid the browser entirely. That wouldn't take much.
2016-05-31T18:09:00Z warweasle: Xach: There should be a tutorial on making workflows with emacs. But considering how much trouble I have with small emacs functions, it might not be worth it. Building workflows was one of my reasons for qix. God rest its soul.
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2016-05-31T18:10:15Z Xach: I like the idea of repl as "workbench"
2016-05-31T18:10:25Z Xach: I haven't really integrated it with anything special emacs can do
2016-05-31T18:11:28Z warweasle: Xach: I agree with the workbench idea. I agree so much I've built clinch just for that.
2016-05-31T18:12:04Z warweasle: Xach: Although I should separate it into two projects so you can remove slime/swank when you are done.
2016-05-31T18:12:20Z Xach: I want to fiddle with clinch.
2016-05-31T18:12:50Z Xach: I really want to be able to do off-the-cuff visualization without roundtripping through the filesystem. Is that something clinch might do for me?
2016-05-31T18:12:56Z warweasle: Xach: Me too! :) Seriously, I've been busy lately but things are calming down.
2016-05-31T18:14:16Z warweasle: Xach: There are a lot of different ways to do that. You can use clinch/cairo2 to make real time 2D charts. You can use opengl 3D to make them too.
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2016-05-31T18:14:51Z Xach: What's the scoop on foreign library installation?
2016-05-31T18:14:53Z warweasle: Xach: You can even take the 2D charts and use cairo2 and put them into a pdf or png.
2016-05-31T18:15:05Z warweasle: Xach: With clinch?
2016-05-31T18:15:05Z Xach: I already have tools for that. I use cl-pdf and vecto.
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2016-05-31T18:15:22Z Xach: warweasle: yes. I use macos on the desktop. is it a PITA to get the libraries?
2016-05-31T18:16:40Z warweasle: Xach: No, you only need what you use. So opengl and cairo. libAssimp if you want to load 3D meshes. libFreeimage if you import non-png images.
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2016-05-31T18:18:25Z warweasle: Xach: Most are the Gnome libraries. I want to switch to libPixbuf eventually, for that reason.
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2016-05-31T18:26:46Z gabriel_laddel: Xach: "I really want to be able to do off-the-cuff visualization without through the filesystem"
2016-05-31T18:26:47Z gabriel_laddel: ummmm
2016-05-31T18:27:11Z gabriel_laddel: see these screenshots?
2016-05-31T18:27:12Z gabriel_laddel: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/excite.html
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2016-05-31T18:32:27Z warweasle: gabriel_laddel: I've never wrapped my head around clim.
2016-05-31T18:32:37Z gabriel_laddel: warweasle: how so?
2016-05-31T18:33:29Z gabriel_laddel: It couldn't be simpler: it gives you (2d) geometry, then some basic means with which to abstract it
2016-05-31T18:36:15Z warweasle: gabriel_laddel: I'm not really sure why not. But I only found the mcclim manual and I don't seem to follow it. I'm sure it's really slick, but if I can't use it...well, I won't use it.
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2016-05-31T18:36:37Z gabriel_laddel: warweasle: did you load the listener?
2016-05-31T18:36:43Z gabriel_laddel: and play around with that?
2016-05-31T18:36:49Z jackdaniel: Xach: yeah, you are probably right. I'll replace it with some other quote if I find it
2016-05-31T18:37:00Z jackdaniel: s/if/when/
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2016-05-31T18:37:36Z jackdaniel: Xach: btw, are you going to add McCLIM rss feed to the Planet Lisp?
2016-05-31T18:37:51Z warweasle: gabriel_laddel: No. Was I supposed to?
2016-05-31T18:38:02Z gabriel_laddel: warweasle: you should.
2016-05-31T18:38:06Z gabriel_laddel: warweasle: it is really cool
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2016-05-31T18:38:57Z gabriel_laddel: Not to mention useful. CLIM comes with graph formatting capabilities, which andy hefner integrated into the listener
2016-05-31T18:39:22Z gabriel_laddel: this means you can call (CLIM-LISTENER:COM-SHOW-CLASS-SUBCLASSES 'climi::sheet) at the listener
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2016-05-31T18:39:42Z jackdaniel: gabriel_laddel: is there a chance you could write a tutorial for the listener? :3
2016-05-31T18:39:43Z gabriel_laddel: and you'll get a class inheritance diagram
2016-05-31T18:39:53Z gabriel_laddel: jackdaniel: already have
2016-05-31T18:40:06Z jackdaniel: oh, really? I didn't know about that
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2016-05-31T18:40:13Z gabriel_laddel: it is part of masamune
2016-05-31T18:40:23Z gabriel_laddel: which includes a lot of stuff that isn't posted anywhere
2016-05-31T18:40:37Z gabriel_laddel: (for example, i assembled a minimal USB rescuecd today)
2016-05-31T18:40:39Z gabriel_laddel: (in lisp)
2016-05-31T18:40:54Z jackdaniel: sounds cool
2016-05-31T18:40:58Z groovy2shoes: sweet! :)
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2016-05-31T18:41:04Z gabriel_laddel: anyways, when masamune replicates correctly, all of this will be posted
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2016-05-31T18:41:19Z warweasle: gabriel_laddel: I'll look it up again when I have some time.
2016-05-31T18:41:48Z gabriel_laddel: well, for the record, all you do is:
2016-05-31T18:41:53Z gabriel_laddel: (ql:quickload 'clim-listener)
2016-05-31T18:42:09Z gabriel_laddel: (clim-listener::run-listener)
2016-05-31T18:42:13Z gabriel_laddel: then in that REPL
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2016-05-31T18:42:21Z warweasle: gabriel_laddel: lol, I'm on a text terminal right now.
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2016-05-31T18:42:42Z gabriel_laddel: warweasle: ?
2016-05-31T18:42:53Z gabriel_laddel: in the listener repl: (clim-listener::com-show-class-subclasses 'climi::sheet)
2016-05-31T18:43:09Z warweasle: gabriel_laddel: It's a long story. Short form: Firewall.
2016-05-31T18:43:19Z gabriel_laddel: ic
2016-05-31T18:44:00Z gabriel_laddel: in any case, that is the minimal amount of code to get the "oh my god, this is awesome" reaction out of people re mcclim (at least, in my experience).
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2016-05-31T18:44:55Z groovy2shoes: :)
2016-05-31T18:45:25Z warweasle: I would really like to learn it...in case I can use those ideas in 3Dmacs
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2016-05-31T18:48:06Z Xach: jackdaniel: i will try to add it soon
2016-05-31T18:48:29Z jackdaniel: OK, just thought you might forgot. No rush.
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2016-05-31T19:17:37Z otjura: is there such a thing as double? I can (declare (float x y)) but double-float craps
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2016-05-31T19:20:54Z jackdaniel: otjura: long-float
2016-05-31T19:21:19Z Xach: otjura: (declare (type <type> <variables>)) should certainly work
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2016-05-31T19:21:38Z vydd: isn't double-float standard? :|
2016-05-31T19:21:53Z Xach: otjura: whether (declare (<type> <variables>)) works depends on something I don't have in mind at the moment
2016-05-31T19:22:17Z Xach: vydd: yes
2016-05-31T19:22:26Z Xach: otjura: in what way does it crap?
2016-05-31T19:22:51Z otjura: I tried this where I apparently have to declare what float means in whole file and it's not cool https://stackoverflow.com/questions/21353376/how-to-use-double-float
2016-05-31T19:23:10Z otjura: Xach: simply writing double-float there instead of float doesn't work
2016-05-31T19:23:24Z Xach: otjura: you can use double floats by using the suffix d0 on your floats.
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2016-05-31T19:23:49Z Xach: otjura: what float you get without the suffix depends on *read-default-float-format*
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2016-05-31T19:24:44Z Xach: otjura: declarations are promises to the system. they do not change values.
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2016-05-31T19:25:46Z Xach: I see now that that question is really old. Maybe it isn't the best context for your trouble. What are you trying to accomplish with the declaration?
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2016-05-31T19:31:04Z otjura: accomplish? simply tell the compiler and reader of code what type of input function works with
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2016-05-31T19:32:56Z Xach: otjura: is there a reason to be that specific?
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2016-05-31T19:36:47Z otjura: yes
2016-05-31T19:36:58Z Xach: otjura: what do you mean by "craps"?
2016-05-31T19:37:08Z otjura: it doesn't work as expected
2016-05-31T19:37:39Z Xach: otjura: what does the code look like? what did you expect? what happened instead?
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2016-05-31T19:40:53Z Xach: paste.lisp.org can help share
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2016-05-31T20:55:39Z jasom: (declare (type double-float x y)) will promise to the compiler that x and y are double floatds
2016-05-31T20:55:49Z jasom: it's still up to you to make sure they are double floats
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2016-05-31T21:08:05Z otjura: jasom: yeah. the problem being I need to put d0 (like 7.2435d0) on input like Xach mentioned
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2016-05-31T21:08:44Z otjura: what I'm trying to accomplish here is direct conversion of java program which requires using doubles into common lisp
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2016-05-31T21:10:36Z otjura: and I'm a bit at loss in producing certain equivalent to double x in signature. essentially I'm trying to make this typed with implicit type conversions.
2016-05-31T21:10:48Z Bike: well, in your stack overflow question it sort of looked like you expected the declaration to make the program include coercions. so uh be aware that it doesn't. you wouldn't want them anyway, not like java would have them
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2016-05-31T21:11:22Z Bike: you can declare things double float. you just need to make sure the values are then actually double float, like by using 3.0d0 instead of 3.0, which is not double float of course.
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2016-05-31T21:13:01Z otjura: I hate dumb things like that, similar to how java requires floats look like 7.2f
2016-05-31T21:13:29Z Bike: well there has to be some way to distinguish single and double values.
2016-05-31T21:13:38Z Bike: and like xach mentioned you can change read-default-float-format.
2016-05-31T21:13:42Z otjura: it's a decimal number, not algebra, silly programming language
2016-05-31T21:13:56Z Bike: what?
2016-05-31T21:14:12Z Bike: what's algebra have to do with anything?
2016-05-31T21:14:17Z otjura: it was a joke
2016-05-31T21:14:25Z Bike: oh. over my head then
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2016-05-31T21:21:22Z jasom: it's not a decimal number, it's a decimal number with a type
2016-05-31T21:22:27Z jasom: 7.2s0 and 7.2d0 are two very different things
2016-05-31T21:22:50Z jasom: and neither one is precisely equal to 72/10
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2016-05-31T21:27:06Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: but you can rationalize 7.2d0
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2016-05-31T21:30:40Z Bike: one eighth, plus one sixteenth, plus one one hundred twenty eighth, plus
2016-05-31T21:33:56Z jasom: right, they are all numbers that round to 7.2
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2016-05-31T23:08:11Z akkad hunts for a project that executes cl code from emacs in an external lisp process.
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2016-05-31T23:14:43Z jasom: akkad: you mean like slime?
2016-05-31T23:15:34Z akkad: jasom: yeah. ideally looking for something that uses slime features. redoing some elisp into cl and still want to use emacs as the interface.
2016-05-31T23:15:46Z akkad: slack.el is too much for emacs to not hang constantly
2016-05-31T23:15:53Z akkad: no threads et
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