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2016-05-27T00:14:23Z jasom: dreamaddict is gone, but if you call the function by name rather than a function object, you can change your application without having to restart the server at all
2016-05-27T00:14:35Z jasom: just recompile the defun
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2016-05-27T03:20:39Z dreamaddict: For some reason, I am having problems with making my own defpackages...here is some boilerplate that doesn't work: http://paste.lisp.org/display/316881
2016-05-27T03:20:49Z pillton: Does someone here know of any material which discusses the differences between the generic function and vtable approaches to dynamic polymorphism?
2016-05-27T03:21:38Z dreamaddict: that was auto-generated by Lucerne, and the file won't compile because it says "Component songs-slider not found."
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2016-05-27T03:23:48Z dreamaddict: http://paste.lisp.org/display/316882
2016-05-27T03:24:11Z dreamaddict: that won't compile because itself isn't found...I don't know...
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2016-05-27T03:31:53Z |3b|: dreamaddict: i'm guessing it is the (Asdf:system-relative-pathname :songs-slider ...) part that is failing rather than the package stuff
2016-05-27T03:32:06Z dreamaddict: apparently
2016-05-27T03:32:28Z |3b|: for that to work, asdf needs to know how to find a system named songs-slider, which needs a .asd file somewhere asdf knows about
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2016-05-27T03:33:40Z dreamaddict: there is one in the project directory, one level rootwise
2016-05-27T03:34:11Z dreamaddict: I suppose I assumed that the packaging in the default make-project would be mostly taken care of...
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2016-05-27T03:35:35Z |3b|: is the project directory somewhere asdf knows (or has been configured) to look?
2016-05-27T03:36:15Z dreamaddict: I don't know...I made this project with (lucerne.skeleton:make-project)
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2016-05-27T03:37:20Z dreamaddict: this page: http://eudoxia.me/lucerne/docs/starting-a-project.html implied that the new project could run right out of the box.
2016-05-27T03:37:25Z dreamaddict: to me, at least
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2016-05-27T03:38:47Z |3b|: yeah, that seems to be missing the step where it tells asdf to look for things in ~/code/
2016-05-27T03:39:05Z dreamaddict: fantastic
2016-05-27T03:39:18Z dreamaddict: then I guess I put that sucker in myself
2016-05-27T03:40:10Z dreamaddict: although that package definition part is as much as anyone on the Internet recommends
2016-05-27T03:41:07Z |3b|: ?
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2016-05-27T03:42:36Z dreamaddict: so...that will compile, if the .asd file is in the same directory as the source file?
2016-05-27T03:43:01Z |3b|: no, if the .asd file is somewhere asdf knows to look for it
2016-05-27T03:43:45Z |3b|: how are you loading the code?
2016-05-27T03:43:53Z dreamaddict: C-c C-k in SLIME
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2016-05-27T03:44:14Z dreamaddict: that probably isn't right
2016-05-27T03:44:33Z |3b|: nah, probably would work if asdf was configured
2016-05-27T03:44:50Z dreamaddict: ok then hmmm
2016-05-27T03:45:04Z |3b|: (of if you didn't use asdf to find the files, but that has its own complications)
2016-05-27T03:46:05Z dreamaddict: (I used quicklisp)
2016-05-27T03:46:21Z dreamaddict: the page implied that I could quickload my project after making it...?
2016-05-27T03:46:39Z |3b|: yeah, assuming asdf can find your .asd file :p
2016-05-27T03:46:45Z |3b|: (ql just uses asdf to load things)
2016-05-27T03:46:58Z dreamaddict: yes, and usually ql does a good enough job that this crap never happens
2016-05-27T03:47:10Z dreamaddict: what gives, ql?
2016-05-27T03:47:38Z |3b|: well, if you want ql to solve it for you, move your code under local-projects in your quicklisp dir :)
2016-05-27T03:47:50Z |3b|: or possibly put a link to your project dir there
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2016-05-27T03:49:09Z dreamaddict: yeah, there is a mechanism for that
2016-05-27T03:49:13Z |3b|: what OS are you using, and where is your project dir currently?
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2016-05-27T03:49:50Z dreamaddict: Ubuntu, I just made /lisp at ~, and then put stuff in there.  I am not using any particular directory, or know that I had to
2016-05-27T03:50:03Z dreamaddict: ~/lisp/songs-slider
2016-05-27T03:50:46Z dreamaddict: s/know/knew
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2016-05-27T03:52:09Z |3b|: ok, if you create ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf
2016-05-27T03:53:12Z |3b|: and in that put (:source-registry (:directory (:home "lisp")) :inherit-configuration)
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2016-05-27T03:55:28Z dreamaddict: I did that
2016-05-27T03:55:37Z |3b|: and then try (asdf:initialize-source-registry) in slime and try C-c C-k on that file again
2016-05-27T03:56:35Z dreamaddict: now it says, "The name "LUCERNE" does not designate any package."
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2016-05-27T03:57:16Z |3b|: ok, sounds like progress, try (ql:quickload :songs-slider)
2016-05-27T03:57:16Z dreamaddict: (asdf:initialize-source-registry) returned "; No value"
2016-05-27T03:57:41Z |3b|: sounds like you didn't have lucerne loaded in that image yet
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2016-05-27T03:58:42Z dreamaddict: ok I went and quickloaded lucerne in the REPL, now it just says "Component "songs-slider" not found"
2016-05-27T03:58:45Z dreamaddict: like it did before
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2016-05-27T04:01:48Z |3b|: hmm
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2016-05-27T04:03:13Z jasom: dreamaddict: try compiling your .asd file (C-c C-k) that will tell asdf about it.  If it works then, then it's because asdf isn't finding the .asd file.  If it still fails, it's something else
2016-05-27T04:03:27Z |3b|: try :tree in place of :directory in that config file
2016-05-27T04:03:44Z |3b|: is C-c C-k expected to work on .asd files these days?
2016-05-27T04:03:46Z jasom: oh, that's probably the problem
2016-05-27T04:03:51Z jasom: |3b|: I don't know; it used to work just fine
2016-05-27T04:04:11Z |3b| thought asdf wanted some specific config when it loaded the .asd files these days, but hasn't tried in a while
2016-05-27T04:05:09Z dreamaddict: I should add that when I start slime, it asks for confirmation because there is a version difference between slime and swank (slime is newer)
2016-05-27T04:05:16Z dreamaddict: no idea if that means anything either...
2016-05-27T04:05:33Z jasom: dreamaddict: that's not good either, but probably isn't causing this particular issue
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2016-05-27T04:06:10Z jasom: slime/swank isn't so much a client/server as a single program, parts of which are written in elisp and parts of which are written in common lisp.  Mixing versions of the two halfs is not supported.
2016-05-27T04:06:16Z reepca: hey oGMo, in conspack are the semantics of references maintained after decoding? That is, if I decode an object and later decode a reference to it, would they be eq?
2016-05-27T04:06:23Z jasom: dreamaddict: quicklisp has an easy way to setup slime (quicklisp-slime-helper)
2016-05-27T04:06:24Z dreamaddict: Error while trying to load definition for system songs-slider from pathname /home/tristan/lisp/songs-slider/songs-slider.asd:    Component :ASDF-LINGUIST not found, required by NIL
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2016-05-27T04:07:03Z Zhivago: reepca: I hope not, as that would imply an expensive interning mechanism.
2016-05-27T04:07:15Z dreamaddict: how do I invoke that, jasom?
2016-05-27T04:07:31Z jasom: dreamaddict: quickload asdf-linguist first, then try compiling the .asd again
2016-05-27T04:07:51Z reepca: yeah, it wouldn't make sense, but just in case it was the case, it would make my life as I currently envision it a lot easier.
2016-05-27T04:08:06Z Zhivago: Why do you want to preserve object identity over serialization?
2016-05-27T04:08:30Z |3b| thinks it would make sense, would allow you to serialize circular structures if nothing else, and potentially save space
2016-05-27T04:08:41Z |3b|: could see it being optional though
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2016-05-27T04:08:46Z Zhivago: You don't need that in order to serialize circular structures.
2016-05-27T04:09:15Z reepca: because I want the guy on the other end to be able to do CLOS-style checking
2016-05-27T04:09:17Z dreamaddict: got it
2016-05-27T04:09:19Z jasom: |3b|: you can serialize circular structures; the question was about preserving it across multiple serialization calls
2016-05-27T04:09:24Z dreamaddict: I installed quicklisp-slime-helper
2016-05-27T04:09:28Z dreamaddict: it compiles now
2016-05-27T04:09:43Z |3b| read it as EQ objects are still EQ after serialization, not that ther are eq to the original if it still exists in the image
2016-05-27T04:10:07Z reepca: and being able to use the EQL specializer would be very useful for my purposes
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2016-05-27T04:10:12Z reepca: sounds like something I'll have to implement on top of conspack then
2016-05-27T04:10:22Z |3b|: ah, if they are in separate files that isn't what i assumed... i wouldn't expect that either
2016-05-27T04:10:26Z jasom: reepca: using eql for something other than symbols is a code-smell anyway
2016-05-27T04:10:28Z Zhivago: Well, the guy needs to have some interning support :)
2016-05-27T04:10:55Z jasom: reepca: in fact it might not work just due to the value not being eql at compile load time
2016-05-27T04:10:59Z Zhivago: But remember that EQL is not EQ -- what kind of objects are you doing?
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2016-05-27T04:11:41Z dreamaddict: wow that helper is seriously...helpful...all of the package BS I've been dealing with is fixed apparently
2016-05-27T04:12:11Z jasom: dreamaddict: it's more likely just that you did a quickload of asdf-linguist perhaps?  ASDF can't find things in quicklisp that haven't been downloaded yet.
2016-05-27T04:12:50Z reepca: I was thinking that I'd be sending CLOS objects, though I guess on second thought I've probably mdae some assumptions and should do some more reading. I always miss something on the first read-through of CLHS pages...
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2016-05-27T04:13:18Z dreamaddict: yeah it looks like it was the linguist
2016-05-27T04:13:57Z reepca: jasom: may I ask why that is?
2016-05-27T04:14:27Z Zhivago: Why are you using EQL dispatch?
2016-05-27T04:16:29Z reepca: Because I thought it would be a useful way to specify which objects an action can be performed on without having to tell the other guy about a bunch of classes every time I want to specify a single object on which an action can be performed
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2016-05-27T04:17:13Z |3b|: are you creating methods at runtime?
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2016-05-27T04:17:34Z reepca: as far as the other guy is aware, yes.
2016-05-27T04:18:16Z |3b|: (and them somehow figuring out when to remove them when an object would have been GCd if it didn't have a reference in the GF dispatch)
2016-05-27T04:18:30Z dreamaddict: strange...the file will compile now that linguist is loaded, and I can quickload :songs-slider now...BUT I can't refer to anything inside of the package with (songs-slider:[...])
2016-05-27T04:18:38Z dreamaddict: it says the package does not exist
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2016-05-27T04:19:00Z |3b|: songs-slider:app should be available
2016-05-27T04:19:51Z reepca: slightly unrelated question - why does CLOS use EQL instead of EQ?
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2016-05-27T04:20:19Z |3b|: dispatch on numbers/characters?
2016-05-27T04:20:47Z reepca: okay
2016-05-27T04:21:13Z |3b|: or just because the default comparison operator is EQL
2016-05-27T04:21:42Z Zhivago: reecpa: EQL is the identity comparator.
2016-05-27T04:21:58Z Zhivago: reecpa: EQ is a specialised form of EQL.
2016-05-27T04:22:25Z reepca: so wait, does EQ not always compare identities?
2016-05-27T04:22:54Z reepca: or rather, does it fail at comparing any identities?
2016-05-27T04:23:03Z Zhivago: Numbers and characters, for example.
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2016-05-27T04:23:55Z White_Flame: reepca: the identity of #C(0 1) would be the concept of i, not the pointer to the structure holding the real/imaginary parts
2016-05-27T04:24:06Z dreamaddict: it works now
2016-05-27T04:24:13Z dreamaddict: I don't know why
2016-05-27T04:25:56Z reepca: the latter is what I always thought of "identity" as meaning. I thought of it as being equivalent to compare-by-reference. Am I wrong about that?
2016-05-27T04:26:18Z White_Flame: that would be true for object identity
2016-05-27T04:26:23Z White_Flame: eq would test object identity
2016-05-27T04:26:26Z White_Flame: eql is a more semantic identity
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2016-05-27T04:27:24Z White_Flame: although (eql 0 0.0) -> nil, but the semantics of identity are defined in the spec
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2016-05-27T04:27:38Z reepca: alright I'll look that up
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2016-05-27T04:28:13Z White_Flame: (or at least, the semantics of eq vs eql. But the rationale around eql is that numbers' & characters' value are their identity)
2016-05-27T04:29:10Z akkad: jackdaniel: had to remove ecl and abcl as it skews the charts too much. http://zeniv.linux.org.uk/~ober/clb/
2016-05-27T04:29:19Z loke: White_Flame: That makes sense, since integers are exact. 5 means _exactly_ 5, while 5.0 means 5±(upls/2)
2016-05-27T04:29:22Z loke: ulps
2016-05-27T04:29:33Z White_Flame: reepca: if you use increasing numbers for identifiers, eq would magically start breaking once you got larger than fixnums, etc
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2016-05-27T04:30:27Z dreamaddict: ok every time I restart emacs and try to load this project, something else strange happens
2016-05-27T04:30:31Z dreamaddict: what is the deal with the packages
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2016-05-27T04:33:36Z reepca: White_Flame: okay, that makes sense. Thanks. I still don't understand why using an eql specializer for anything other than a symbol is considered bad, though. Could someone explain it or point me to an explanation?
2016-05-27T04:38:40Z Zhivago: Using an EQL specializer for anything that isn't appropriate for EQL is considered bad.
2016-05-27T04:39:35Z Zhivago: (for obvious reasons)
2016-05-27T04:40:02Z White_Flame: Zhivago: it would seem to me that EQL is appropriate per situation, not per type
2016-05-27T04:42:08Z reepca: If I write a method that specializes using EQL on an object that I have previously created using, say, make-instance, that method will only be applicable to that object, right?
2016-05-27T04:42:17Z Bike: yeah.
2016-05-27T04:42:18Z Zhivago: Certainly.
2016-05-27T04:43:48Z reepca: Okay, that's what I'm trying to do. The problem is that I'm trying to do it over the internet in a way that the other guy can check by himself whether a method is applicable to a certain object(s). And for that I need to have a way of communicating object identity.
2016-05-27T04:45:06Z reepca: Which is why I was wondering about how decoding references in conspack worked. Anyway, thanks for your explanations.
2016-05-27T04:45:28Z Bike: once you have multiple images the situation gets even more confusing. there's all this stuff about "similarity".
2016-05-27T04:45:54Z Zhivago: Then you have the issue of equal under future mutation.
2016-05-27T04:46:53Z Bike: you might want to rearchitect something rather than have eql-specialized methods that have to be that kind of network-introspectable. especially since you're using p ython or something?
2016-05-27T04:47:31Z reepca: brother is using python to write the client, which I guess means I'm using python.
2016-05-27T04:50:03Z reepca: The issue is that I need to let the client know which actions it can take and which objects they are applicable to, and I figured that using the type system for that would be fitting. The problem is that I don't want to have to create a new type every time I have just one object I want an action to be applicable to, for example.
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2016-05-27T05:09:18Z jackdaniel: akkad: is it automatically generated?
2016-05-27T05:09:28Z jackdaniel: I'd love to incorporate it to cl-bench/report package
2016-05-27T05:10:04Z jackdaniel: akkad: you have ecl on the charts, what do you mean?
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2016-05-27T05:28:58Z loke: jackdaniel: I have been unable to reliably reproduce the problem.
2016-05-27T05:29:55Z jackdaniel: loke: OK, then if you could just put info how to obtain and build potato with info about the error condition etc  on the  issues page I'd be great
2016-05-27T05:30:13Z jackdaniel: thanks for trying
2016-05-27T05:30:47Z loke: jackdaniel: Just closing the repository (including the submodules) and running tools/build_binary.sh should do the trick
2016-05-27T05:30:55Z loke: Oh wait. :-)
2016-05-27T05:30:57Z loke: that uses SBCL
2016-05-27T05:31:38Z jackdaniel: loke: yeah, but please add the repo address etc to the bugreport
2016-05-27T05:31:39Z loke: You need to add the dependencies in the "vendor" directory to ASDF and then load the system "potato"
2016-05-27T05:31:42Z loke: OK
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2016-05-27T05:31:56Z jackdaniel: because my memory is trash sometimes :)
2016-05-27T05:33:15Z jackdaniel: zRecursive: ECL was able to build maxima for years
2016-05-27T05:33:52Z jackdaniel: answering your question from #ecl
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2016-05-27T05:34:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-05-27T05:34:24Z jackdaniel: beach: hi
2016-05-27T05:34:24Z Cymew: morning
2016-05-27T05:35:14Z jackdaniel: beach: I've removed after some investigation also the opengl backend, and brokem clim-ffi (only this backend used it and I found no reference to clim-ffi, so it was some leftover with no spec)
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2016-05-27T05:35:36Z beach: Good!
2016-05-27T05:35:45Z jackdaniel: s/brokem/broken/
2016-05-27T05:41:34Z phoe_krk: Hey!
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2016-05-27T05:44:37Z loke: jackdaniel: Complete enough?
2016-05-27T05:44:38Z loke: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/250
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2016-05-27T05:46:01Z jackdaniel: loke: looks great, thanks :)
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2016-05-27T05:46:15Z loke: I'm including the error message in the report as well.
2016-05-27T05:46:53Z jackdaniel: excellent :)
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2016-05-27T05:47:23Z jackdaniel: regarding *great* bug reports I was like "wow!" impressed with this one: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/248 I'm going to check this today
2016-05-27T05:48:44Z jackdaniel: the most impressive is the case study linked in it
2016-05-27T05:49:26Z loke: jackdaniel: Yeah, that's a good one. :-)
2016-05-27T05:50:29Z loke: jackdaniel: How do ECL imlpement the nonlocal exits by conditions? Does it use longjmp()?
2016-05-27T05:52:03Z Bike: that's a pretty crazy facility.
2016-05-27T05:52:26Z jackdaniel: loke: yes, frame mechanism relies on the C stack and on the setjmp/longjmp
2016-05-27T05:53:01Z jackdaniel: but ecl has nice internal abstraction over it
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2016-05-27T05:59:05Z beach: jackdaniel: Did you see the screen shot I sent you?
2016-05-27T05:59:25Z beach: Does it look good enough to put on the web page?
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2016-05-27T06:00:52Z jackdaniel: beach: yeah, looks very nice :)
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2016-05-27T06:01:15Z jackdaniel: I can push it right now if you want, but I want to update a few things in one batch
2016-05-27T06:01:32Z beach: No rush.
2016-05-27T06:01:45Z beach: Take your time.
2016-05-27T06:01:53Z jackdaniel: and regarding the clx and truetype, I think we may do a system clim-clx/pretty , which will depend on clim-clx and use truetype and pixie look
2016-05-27T06:02:12Z jackdaniel: without chaning the  clim-clx name
2016-05-27T06:02:17Z beach: That sounds good.
2016-05-27T06:03:34Z jackdaniel: right now I'm catching on with ECL bugs though. I have some more commits with directory rearranging, but I havent tested it yet so no pull request so far
2016-05-27T06:03:37Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/dkochmanski/McCLIM for a reference
2016-05-27T06:04:29Z jackdaniel: "catching up"? I think it's a correct phrase
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2016-05-27T06:18:23Z beach: Sure.  Like I said, there is no rush.
2016-05-27T06:18:48Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2016-05-27T07:21:36Z phoe_work: Is there an SBCL 1.3.5 non-MSI package for Windows?
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2016-05-27T08:23:04Z Cymew: Is there no way to dismantle a msi package to get at what's inside?
2016-05-27T08:23:48Z Cymew: Isn't it like a self deflating zip with an autorun hook, or something?
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2016-05-27T08:24:10Z Cymew is guessing wildly, as he knows nothing about windows
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2016-05-27T08:31:16Z flip214: Cymew: no, there are tools.
2016-05-27T08:31:27Z flip214: an MSI is mostly an access database.... lots of tables.
2016-05-27T08:31:54Z Cymew: I see.
2016-05-27T08:32:06Z flip214: but simply extracting the files might not help much - registry entries, scripts, macros, etc. might create needed data as well.
2016-05-27T08:32:32Z phoe_work: ^
2016-05-27T08:32:35Z flip214: in case of SBCL, that shouldn't be *that* integrated into windows (like pure-windows software), simply fetching the files might actually work, I guess.
2016-05-27T08:33:00Z flip214: http://thebackroomtech.com/2007/08/23/howto-extract-files-from-a-msi-file-using-the-windows-command-line/
2016-05-27T08:33:43Z flip214: 10 years ago there's only a handful of files in an MSI - CAB files, that would need to be extracted on their own again...
2016-05-27T08:34:04Z flip214: if you have a VM, make a snapshot, install in there, fetch the files, and restore to the snapshot. much easier.
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2016-05-27T08:47:06Z z0d: anyone else getting "Symbol's function definition is void: seq position" when starting ibuffer-mode? Emacs trunk on Ubuntu
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2016-05-27T08:47:12Z z0d: oops, wrong window
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2016-05-27T09:31:02Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for beach: we have to rethink making pixie and truetype the default – it's slow. I think about creating some benchmarks to measure it and about adding back the freetype font backend to compare it if it's any better
2016-05-27T09:31:02Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-05-27T09:39:24Z moore33: jackdaniel: Do you have any thoughts about moving away from CLX in McClim? I don't know how familiar you are with the code yet.
2016-05-27T09:42:39Z jackdaniel: moore33: I'm pretty familiar with the system hierarchy etc., but I don't know system per-se very well yet
2016-05-27T09:43:08Z jackdaniel: I think that after cleanup we should fix the backend issue and provide a well defined documentation what backend has to provide
2016-05-27T09:44:04Z jackdaniel: by backend-issue I mean the issue mentioned by beach with mirroring-sheet
2016-05-27T09:44:26Z jackdaniel: moore33: do you have any insights with this?
2016-05-27T09:45:27Z jackdaniel: I'll be back ~20m, I'll read the backlog if you'll write something
2016-05-27T09:45:30Z moore33: jackdaniel: To be honest, I was never very clear on the role of sheets, panes, etc :) I do know the presentation type system well, having written a large part of it.
2016-05-27T09:45:39Z moore33: see ya
2016-05-27T09:45:57Z jackdaniel: yeah, I saw you a lot in the sourcecode ;)
2016-05-27T09:46:22Z moore33: jackdaniel: My main CLIM interest is in Climatis + OpenGL, but any sharing between McClim and Climatis would be good for both.
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2016-05-27T09:47:21Z jackdaniel: how different is climatics from clim 2.2? will it be possible to evolve mcclim to support it's spec?
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2016-05-27T09:47:47Z jackdaniel: afk :)
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2016-05-27T10:09:57Z jackdaniel: moore33: back
2016-05-27T10:10:15Z jackdaniel: moore33: to rephrase, how incompatible is clim 3.0 from clim 2.2?
2016-05-27T10:11:35Z moore33: jackdaniel: It's a bit hard to say, because at the moment Climatis is just low-level rendering + output records. beach has put a lot of energy into high-quality font rendering and better spatial searching algorithms.
2016-05-27T10:12:07Z moore33: Put another way, beach has done all the work and I just flame about what I want to do differently from classic CLIM :)
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2016-05-27T10:12:57Z moore33: I would really like to do away with immediate mode graphics in clim3, that is graphic commands that don't create output records.
2016-05-27T10:14:01Z moore33: I had also thought about simplifying presentation types a lot, but that's not really necessary; in the name of forward progress, it might be better to just port the McClim presentation types, command processor, etc. to Climatis.
2016-05-27T10:15:34Z jackdaniel: well, that's beyond my understanding of CLIM yet
2016-05-27T10:16:14Z moore33: jackdaniel: It's cool that you are working on it.
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2016-05-27T10:18:28Z jackdaniel: it's a consultancy work – beach decided to fund some work on it. But it's a cool system to work on, also it's just great to work with Common Lisp FOSS exclusively
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2016-05-27T10:21:56Z moore33: jackdaniel: Yes, that's what beach told me.
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2016-05-27T10:24:23Z jdz: oh, now i'm getting envious!
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2016-05-27T10:27:38Z jackdaniel: either I believe I've managed to clean the code hierarchy
2016-05-27T10:27:55Z jackdaniel: and add systems, fix deps etc
2016-05-27T10:28:03Z jackdaniel: I plan to make a blog post about it soon
2016-05-27T10:28:10Z moore33: Cool.
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2016-05-27T10:29:34Z moore33: back after lunch
2016-05-27T10:29:35Z jackdaniel: and after rolling the release to plug in-house modules like clim-mop with proper portability layers
2016-05-27T10:29:47Z jackdaniel: see you o/ bon apetit
2016-05-27T10:29:56Z moore33: Yeah, closer-mop is probably a better bet these days.
2016-05-27T10:30:03Z moore33: Do you have McClim working on ECL?
2016-05-27T10:30:09Z jackdaniel: yes I have :-)
2016-05-27T10:30:15Z moore33: That's great.
2016-05-27T10:30:24Z jackdaniel: yes, but ECL has to be built with it's own clx
2016-05-27T10:30:37Z moore33: That's fine by me :)
2016-05-27T10:30:59Z moore33: Is that a clx that actually makes calls to C?
2016-05-27T10:31:05Z jackdaniel: I have a plan to fix also other baroque systems in my spare time. CLX would benefit from similar curation
2016-05-27T10:31:16Z jackdaniel: so acl-compat
2016-05-27T10:31:52Z jackdaniel: no, ecl's clx is just a fork
2016-05-27T10:32:05Z jackdaniel: upstream clx assumed recursive locks while it wasn't default on ecl
2016-05-27T10:32:18Z moore33: I did all my early McClim work on OpenMCL; I should load it up in CCL Arm and make sure that it works.
2016-05-27T10:32:22Z jackdaniel: and it kept breaking with each release on ECL, so the previous ECL maintainer decided to fork it and fix once for all
2016-05-27T10:32:32Z stilda: Hi. Does anybody know math oriented project on Common Lisp that I could possibly join? (Something related to Machine Learning, AI, NLP)
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2016-05-27T10:35:06Z jackdaniel: moore33: ccl on x86-64 works fine
2016-05-27T10:35:16Z jackdaniel: mcclim on ccl/x86-64 I mean
2016-05-27T10:36:10Z schjetne: stilda: Maxima is the first that comes to mind
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2016-05-27T10:36:43Z schjetne: gabriel_laddel was talking about that yesterday
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2016-05-27T10:38:41Z schjetne: Otherwise I think most of the NLP and AI stuff in Common Lisp is still proprietary
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2016-05-27T10:40:26Z jackdaniel: stilda: there is cl-nlp, I've used it once – nice project
2016-05-27T10:41:51Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for beach: scratch that, now everything seems to work fast even with a pretty theme. Maybe it was something on my side
2016-05-27T10:41:51Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-05-27T10:43:57Z jdz: there's also stuff that Gábor Melis is into
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2016-05-27T10:44:08Z jdz: http://quotenil.com
2016-05-27T10:44:38Z jdz: https://github.com/melisgl
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2016-05-27T10:51:12Z stilda: Maxima seems to be settled now. I am more interested in maybe startup, open research, or something that potentially lead to new product and money.
2016-05-27T10:52:05Z jackdaniel: stilda: http://turtleware.eu/static/misc/job-romania.txt
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2016-05-27T10:52:31Z jackdaniel: it requires relocation to Bucharest though
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2016-05-27T10:55:28Z jackdaniel: stilda: from what we've talked it's a bigdata AI application they're working on
2016-05-27T10:56:01Z jackdaniel: to summarize the events and make reports and prognosis, sounds definetely interesting
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2016-05-27T10:56:48Z jackdaniel: also ravenpack have an open position – http://www.ravenpack.com/company/careers/ – also AI
2016-05-27T10:56:50Z JuanDaugherty: absurd if it didn't entail equity, which like as not it doesn't
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2016-05-27T10:57:45Z JuanDaugherty: in the standard context though I would be considered to have a distorted, outre perspective
2016-05-27T10:58:04Z JuanDaugherty: and coulda been Tirana or something igess
2016-05-27T10:58:24Z jackdaniel: I'm just a messenger :)
2016-05-27T10:58:36Z JuanDaugherty: yes I know
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2016-05-27T10:59:06Z JuanDaugherty: hopefully you'd get a fee so that at least it was rational self interest
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2016-05-27T11:11:08Z stilda: Thank you, these are relevant projects. I am not ready to join them. I am far from being a good lisper and want to master it in my free time. Is there any kind of library related to math/algorithms/data structures/etc that would be nice to have?
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2016-05-27T11:13:12Z HeyFlash: stilda: I always wished for a boost:geometry equivalent for cl.
2016-05-27T11:14:00Z HeyFlash: But I'm sure there are hundreds of other things that would be "nice to have". ;-)
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2016-05-27T11:29:35Z stilda: HeyFlash: do you think it should be written in lisp or is it ok to have a binding to c/c++ library?
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2016-05-27T12:12:40Z phoe_work: stilda: there's a difference between a binding to a boost:geometry and a CL equivalent of boost:geometry for CL.
2016-05-27T12:13:12Z phoe_work: The first is obviously not written in CL if it requires bindings; the other suggests it's written in CL if it's the CL equivalent of something.
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2016-05-27T12:53:10Z reepca: oGMo: When reference tracking is enabled in conspack, are all decoded objects that are decoded from the same reference EQ?
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2016-05-27T13:38:02Z oGMo: reepca: they ought to be, i think, are you running into a case otherwise?
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2016-05-27T15:39:34Z Pritilender: hi there! Can someone suggest me a good environment for profiling Lisp code on Windows?
2016-05-27T15:40:25Z prion_: >Windows
2016-05-27T15:40:46Z Pritilender: I've tried Daniel Kochmanski metering combined with GNU CLisp, but I now want to see in depth calling and stuff.
2016-05-27T15:40:59Z prion_: Install emacs, sbcl and slime. Done.
2016-05-27T15:41:05Z prion_: And please, uninstall Windows.
2016-05-27T15:42:00Z Pritilender: Well if I can get Visual Studio on Linux (not through Wine or VirtualBox), I'd gladly uninstall Windows...
2016-05-27T15:42:58Z prion_: Ye, the rope is tight...
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2016-05-27T15:44:30Z prion_: Just try out the emacs text editor.
2016-05-27T15:44:39Z jackdaniel: prion_: could you send me an email with info what exactly do you want? (or preferably fill an issue if you have common-lisp.net account)
2016-05-27T15:44:58Z jackdaniel: Pritilender: ↑ that was meant to reach you
2016-05-27T15:45:00Z prion_: jackdaniel: wrong guy L)
2016-05-27T15:45:32Z jackdaniel: Pritilender: I'm on a run, please send be mail with details – it's on the metering readme file
2016-05-27T15:45:38Z Pritilender: ok, I will
2016-05-27T15:45:41Z jackdaniel: thanks!
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2016-05-27T15:46:39Z jackdaniel: Pritilender: I'd also love the feedback about what did you find good or annoying in metering
2016-05-27T15:47:10Z Pritilender: OK :) I'm writting it now :)
2016-05-27T15:47:27Z jackdaniel: great, I'll read it probably tomorrow
2016-05-27T15:47:34Z jackdaniel: see you :)
2016-05-27T15:47:38Z prion_: not transcending the monstruous power of Emacs...
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2016-05-27T15:55:15Z akkad: jackdaniel: I did regenerate with ecl and others after posting. yes it's automatically generated
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2016-05-27T15:55:30Z akkad: mostly
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2016-05-27T16:45:56Z engblom: Why is https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/files/release/ecl-16.1.2.tgz missing?
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2016-05-27T17:13:27Z ym: What is analogue to Xlib's XSync function in clx?
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2016-05-27T17:22:27Z akkad: engblom: odd
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2016-05-27T17:47:52Z jasom: phoe_krk: I have a script that installs sbcl from the command line without setting any registry settings if you're interested
2016-05-27T17:49:04Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/lispstick-automate/blob/master/sbcl.sh <-- $1 is the path to the .msi file and $2 is the path you want to install it to
2016-05-27T17:49:50Z jasom: phoe_krk: it's designed to run under *nix, but you can adapt it to run under cmd or powershell pretty easy I imagine
2016-05-27T17:50:44Z jasom: Or just download and extract https://github.com/jasom/lispstick-automate/releases/download/0.1/lispstick-sbcl-1.3.5-emacs-24.4.zip which includes the latest sbcl, emacs and quicklisp
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2016-05-27T17:53:19Z jasom: jackdaniel: if you ever get the backend API documented let me know; I've wanted to try my hand at a mcclim backend, but I couldn't make heads nor tails of which was clx specific and which was general
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2016-05-27T18:02:34Z akkad: jackdaniel: the deflate benchmark shows different results than one would expect having used chipz/salza2 on the different implementations. sbcl is really fast, and everything else including commercial ones are an order of magnitude slower. but this is not reflected in the deflate benchmark
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2016-05-27T18:54:16Z phoe_krk: jasom: nah, I solved my problem
2016-05-27T18:54:24Z phoe_krk: (...by installing CCL)
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2016-05-27T19:09:59Z engblom: jackdaniel: I made a new quick test of compiling ecl. The build process ends like this: https://dpaste.de/FujK
2016-05-27T19:10:18Z engblom: If you think it is a bug and not a mistake from my side, I will later make a bug report
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2016-05-27T19:27:15Z Nikesh: Are there any LISP languages that target Node.js ? I.e. that transpile to JS?
2016-05-27T19:27:47Z aeth: https://github.com/jashkenas/coffeescript/wiki/List-of-languages-that-compile-to-JS#lisp-scheme
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2016-05-27T19:28:32Z aeth: It's probably one of the most common.
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2016-05-27T19:31:06Z bullets: anyone here has used lisp for system administration tasks?
2016-05-27T19:31:38Z bullets: or network administration?
2016-05-27T19:31:39Z Nikesh: aeth: Thanks!
2016-05-27T19:32:00Z aeth: Nikesh: the only annyoing thing about that list is that it doesn't have a separate section for Common Lisp
2016-05-27T19:32:17Z aeth: I think the main Common Lisp in JS is Parenscript, though. There might be one other, but I can't remember it right now.
2016-05-27T19:32:31Z PuercoPop: Any ideas what am I missing in order to extend generic the generic function? http://paste.lisp.org/display/316924
2016-05-27T19:32:32Z aeth: bullets: https://github.com/fare/cl-scripting
2016-05-27T19:33:23Z PuercoPop: Nikesh: there is jscl but it is far for complete and there is parenscript. There is cl-javascript if what you want is to use js libraries + lisp code
2016-05-27T19:33:36Z PuercoPop: cl-javascript compiles JS to CL
2016-05-27T19:33:40Z schjetne: THere's also http://davazp.net/jscl/jscl.html
2016-05-27T19:33:48Z schjetne: Not sure how complete it is
2016-05-27T19:34:17Z schjetne: I didn't know about it until I saw it mentioned in phoe_krk's ELS write-up
2016-05-27T19:34:27Z bullets: aeth: tyvm that's what I was looking for
2016-05-27T19:34:38Z bullets: that kind of stuff
2016-05-27T19:34:44Z aeth: There's also a few more
2016-05-27T19:35:54Z aeth: To invoke from the shell: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/xcvb/cl-launch
2016-05-27T19:36:24Z rpg: bullets: scripting with (portable) CL is a nightmare, because CL doesn't have a full-fledged filesystem interface.
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2016-05-27T19:37:21Z aeth: This is a better link for cl-launch. http://cliki.net/cl-launch
2016-05-27T19:37:37Z bullets: I usually just use sbcl
2016-05-27T19:37:50Z bullets: I'm fairly aware that there's a need for implementation-dependant stuff
2016-05-27T19:38:38Z rpg: bullets: then you are probably ok.
2016-05-27T19:39:07Z aeth: If you're not already aware of UIOP: https://github.com/fare/asdf/tree/master/uiop
2016-05-27T19:39:17Z rpg: aeth: UIOP is not enough.
2016-05-27T19:39:32Z aeth: It helps a lot, though
2016-05-27T19:39:39Z rpg: E.g., even with UIOP, you cannot determine if a filename refers to a directory
2016-05-27T19:40:31Z rpg: ... because that isn't something you can do with ANSI CL or with the sort of least-common denominator among the lisp implementations that UIOP covers.
2016-05-27T19:41:12Z aeth: Then choose a smaller subset, e.g. just SBCL, CCL, and ECL.
2016-05-27T19:41:19Z rpg: I think with ACL or SBCL (and probably others) you could do better. Otherwise you probably need CFFI to poke at the POSIX API
2016-05-27T19:41:45Z bullets: portability a big issue
2016-05-27T19:41:55Z bullets: I personally like sbcl because it has sb-posix
2016-05-27T19:42:01Z PuercoPop: rpg: even though I agree that uiop is not enough, there is uiop:directory-exists-p
2016-05-27T19:42:04Z rpg: I'm a booster for people who want to look at this, but TBH, I cannot imagine a future in which this would be better than using perl or something like it.
2016-05-27T19:42:10Z bullets: which I haven't used but I like the idea of directly interacting with the OS
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2016-05-27T19:43:09Z rpg: PuercoPop: That doesn't really deal with the problem -- it relies on directory-pathname-p that just guesses based on the shape of the pathname
2016-05-27T19:43:35Z aeth: rpg: I think Perl is mostly used these days because it's everywhere. The same with bash.
2016-05-27T19:43:59Z aeth: And if you want to be *really* portable, you have to use sh
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2016-05-27T19:44:37Z PuercoPop: rpg: it also uses probe-file*
2016-05-27T19:44:55Z rpg: aeth: I don't agree. There are good reasons for them to be used -- perl has a really extensive OS interface, much better than CL + UIOP, and it's highly optimized for tasks like "pump a bunch of strings from a unix pipe through a regexp"
2016-05-27T19:44:55Z PuercoPop: which should test if the directory exists
2016-05-27T19:45:06Z bullets: ... so common lisp is not good for system administration, as a general rule?
2016-05-27T19:45:37Z rpg: PuercoPop: That just tells you if a file is there -- if the implementation doesn't put the fields in the pathname object in the right way (and it's easy to get cases where it doesn't), CL cannot tell whether something is a directory or not.
2016-05-27T19:45:56Z rpg: I've been maintaining ASDF long enough to have seen this happen over and over.
2016-05-27T19:46:20Z rpg: You really need to be able to ask the OS if something is a directory or not, and CL cannot do that (portably).
2016-05-27T19:46:31Z rpg: That's just one example.
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2016-05-27T19:48:10Z PuercoPop: rpg: I see that in allegro it uses probe-directory, would it be a good fix to use each implementation's way? ej in sbcl use sb-posix:stat-mode?
2016-05-27T19:49:29Z PuercoPop: (I agree with the not portably part, and that uiop is not enough, but I see of no reason why it couldn't be fix as a cross-implementation 'portabilty' layer. Although Python is already 'good enough' most of the times)
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2016-05-27T19:50:13Z emaczen: What is the current state of CLIM?
2016-05-27T19:50:40Z emaczen: what graphical backends/environments will it support?
2016-05-27T19:51:25Z rpg: PuercoPop: I think it's probably a good choice to either pick a single implementation, or if you want portability, use CFFI, instead of driving yourself crazy chasing all the different implementations' APIs.
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2016-05-27T19:54:48Z PuercoPop: I was referring as a way improving uiop's directory-exists-p. But otherwise yeah, it is less of a hassle.
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2016-05-27T19:59:20Z rpg: PuercoPop: Oh, I was thinking of bullets question about using CL for system scripting.
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2016-05-27T20:02:22Z akkad: "scripting" that compiles to native binaries
2016-05-27T20:03:14Z rpg: PuercoPop: Yes, we try to use the implementations' specific stuff in ASDF/UIOP, but I kind of hate it.  It's a ton of work and whack-a-mole. I'd be a lot happier if we could get all the implementations to implement UIOP:pathname-directory-p and use that...
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2016-05-27T20:07:04Z PuercoPop: rpg: don't all implementations just merge asdf and update from time to time? You prefer uiop to more like a 'cdr'/PEP then?
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2016-05-27T20:08:13Z rpg: Yes, they do.  But what I mean is instead of us having to guess what the implementation provides that we can cobble together into, e.g., PATHNAME-DIRECTORY-P -- and some implementations simply don't seem to support that -- have them tell *us* what to do.  They are, after all, the ones who know.
2016-05-27T20:08:22Z rpg: sorry have to dash now.... appointment....
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2016-05-27T20:25:18Z engblom: akkad: Yes, on netbsd on rpi2
2016-05-27T20:26:56Z akkad: yeah I promised to get you something, but my arm buildbox is still down
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2016-05-27T21:50:17Z sebboh: I don't seem to be finding any CL implementations for plan9 (or derivatives).  Yet, when I read about the design and history of that OS, I figured there'd be plenty of overlap between the set of people that like plan9 and the set of people that like CL.  What am I missing?
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2016-05-27T21:51:40Z prxq: sebboh: I don't remember being closer to a kilometer to a machine running plan9 ever. And I'm just being conservative.
2016-05-27T21:52:34Z prxq: a CL implementation is a large task, and plan9 very, very niche.
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2016-05-27T21:53:45Z sebboh: Funny story, I watched a weird guy boot it up on his PPC mac back in ... probably 1997?  I had no interest, because I was more worried (at the time, being a child) about the video games that would only work if he booted back into .. OS9 I guess.  8?
2016-05-27T21:54:59Z sebboh: prxq, I'd posit that some CL implementations have less users than there are plan9 users, but sure, I get what you're saying.
2016-05-27T21:55:10Z rpg[Away]: I thought plan9 was basically dead.  Somebody took it off and developed some kind of follow-on, and I'm blanking on the name of that OS.
2016-05-27T21:56:12Z sebboh: there are plan9 (and forks) related stories on the top of news aggregator sites for the past couple days.
2016-05-27T21:56:38Z rpg[Away]: oh yes, "Inferno," that's it.
2016-05-27T21:56:46Z otwieracz: Sad story, plan9 :(
2016-05-27T21:57:00Z rpg[Away]: But I looked at inferno and it was all weird.... like you were supposed to run it in user space.
2016-05-27T21:57:00Z otwieracz: A lot of awesome ideas.
2016-05-27T21:57:27Z otwieracz: At the time I was looking into it last time, 9front was most „up to date”
2016-05-27T21:57:37Z sebboh: Inferno is dead, near as I can tell.  Yeah, I didn't like Inferno.  Well should I provide a link now? to non-dead plan9 descendants?
2016-05-27T21:57:38Z otwieracz: And had best hardware support.
2016-05-27T21:57:46Z otwieracz: If we can talk about „plan9” and „hardware support”
2016-05-27T21:58:55Z sebboh: otwieracz: yeah 9front is what I found earlier today. Booted it up in virtualbox.  The window manager-alike and xterm-alike work fine, but I don't know any commands.
2016-05-27T21:59:34Z otwieracz: Both 9wm and acme are completely awesome.
2016-05-27T21:59:55Z prxq: from my forages into embedded programming, I bet "none" is way more more popular than plan9
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2016-05-27T22:00:52Z sebboh: After reading about the per-process namespaces, and the "everything is a file, unlike unix, where everything is a file or a socket or some ioctl crap, no really, everything is a file here", I immediately thought "well this is where I should host my CL apps".  And then, bam, blackhole.  I am unaware of a CL implementation for plan9 (or deriv).
2016-05-27T22:01:24Z fnodeuser: sebboh: create one
2016-05-27T22:01:34Z akkad: emacs tends to get ported faster than CL's
2016-05-27T22:01:36Z phoe_krk: sebboh: is there a plan9 C compiler?
2016-05-27T22:01:46Z prxq: sebboh: you really think plan9 is where you should host your CL apps?
2016-05-27T22:01:46Z phoe_krk: if there is, ECL and/or CLISP
2016-05-27T22:01:56Z sebboh: Guys, I'm asking, not telling.
2016-05-27T22:01:56Z prxq: m(
2016-05-27T22:02:20Z prxq: sebboh: that's ok :)
2016-05-27T22:02:28Z phoe_krk: plan9 sounds unixlike enough for ECL to be considered portable to it
2016-05-27T22:02:46Z phoe_krk: try grabbing a compiler on a plan9 instance and giving some of its sources a try
2016-05-27T22:03:03Z sebboh: phoe_krk: ok, so I should try to build ECL on ... this plan9 instance? /me points
2016-05-27T22:03:19Z otwieracz: Fotget about plan9
2016-05-27T22:03:26Z otwieracz: Do not waste human resources.
2016-05-27T22:03:50Z phoe_krk: sebboh: first step - get a working plan9.
2016-05-27T22:04:01Z phoe_krk: second step - get it a working C compiler.
2016-05-27T22:04:10Z phoe_krk: third step - build the basic toolchain.
2016-05-27T22:04:14Z phoe_krk: fourth step - try compiling ECL.
2016-05-27T22:04:21Z phoe_krk: if you want to do it this way, I think it's the way.
2016-05-27T22:04:23Z otwieracz: Try *rewriting* ECL.
2016-05-27T22:04:31Z otwieracz: Into plan9-way.
2016-05-27T22:04:47Z otwieracz: (for example „Runes” instead of strings for utf-8)
2016-05-27T22:04:58Z otwieracz: (and other plan9-C specifics)
2016-05-27T22:05:03Z sebboh: let's start with hello world.  Bear in mind that none of this is going anywhere if I can't ssh into the thing.  Hold on.
2016-05-27T22:05:11Z phoe_krk: now that's some salty stuff, otwieracz
2016-05-27T22:05:15Z phoe_krk afk
2016-05-27T22:05:20Z vydd: didn't plan9 have a C compiler?
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2016-05-27T22:05:24Z otwieracz: It does.
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2016-05-27T22:05:35Z otwieracz: But it's only as a w „workaround”
2016-05-27T22:05:35Z phoe_krk: sebboh: I have to run, memo me what you have
2016-05-27T22:05:36Z prxq: sebboh: or, to summarize, there's tons of things that are probably more satisfying. OTOH, it's a hobby, so......... :)
2016-05-27T22:06:04Z otwieracz: OH WELL there's even no git so you'll not clone repository.
2016-05-27T22:06:05Z aeth: I can easily write a CL REPL for any platform that only implements the simpliest hello world. "Hello world." ; "Hello world."
2016-05-27T22:06:08Z vydd: I had it installed on a box many years ago, but didn't have the right network card
2016-05-27T22:06:39Z otwieracz: I had it in two-machine setup.
2016-05-27T22:06:46Z otwieracz: „cpu” is awesome idea.
2016-05-27T22:06:57Z otwieracz: But well.
2016-05-27T22:07:02Z akkad: cl on dos is real
2016-05-27T22:07:16Z otwieracz: doc has far more users than plan9.
2016-05-27T22:07:57Z vydd: implementing scheme would probably be a better idea, for getting one's feet wet
2016-05-27T22:08:11Z sebboh: Human: tell the bot to tell phoe_krk Here is a link to the plan9 that runs in virtualbox trivially. http://fqa.9front.org (p.s. I have no idea why it is written in that style, and I hesitate to forward such a thing, but hell, it's clearly an OS...)
2016-05-27T22:08:25Z Bike: well hopefully you'd be porting an existing lisp implementation, not writing one from scratch
2016-05-27T22:08:38Z aeth: otwieracz: DOS has quite a few users, especially if you count e.g. running old games in DOSBox (some Steam games do this!)
2016-05-27T22:09:07Z aeth: Even after the last company migrates off of DOS, DOSBox emulating will keep DOS alive.
2016-05-27T22:09:16Z otwieracz: IMO in comparison to plan9 DOS is *widely* used.
2016-05-27T22:09:28Z otwieracz: Even for Souyz training :)
2016-05-27T22:09:33Z prxq: sebboh: that looks... encouraging :)
2016-05-27T22:09:50Z fnodeuser: Bike: it has to be from scratch
2016-05-27T22:10:04Z akkad: then scheme :P
2016-05-27T22:10:11Z akkad: and LiSP to read
2016-05-27T22:10:19Z Bike: what, no cross compilers allowed?
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2016-05-27T22:10:32Z fnodeuser: in assembly x86_64
2016-05-27T22:10:35Z sebboh: don't it?  Aside from the nagging fear that the whole thing is an elaborate hoax made to give me hope for a cool new OS then dash said hope. ;P
2016-05-27T22:11:00Z otwieracz: Stop wasting resurces, really.
2016-05-27T22:11:15Z otwieracz: There's no point.
2016-05-27T22:11:34Z sebboh: well lemme at least see if I can ssh into it. ;P hold on
2016-05-27T22:11:36Z aeth: Afaik, there's no reason to do a new CL 100% from scratch now that SICL exists.
2016-05-27T22:11:45Z prxq: otwieracz: well, he can learn a lot from the endeavor
2016-05-27T22:11:45Z sebboh: wtf is sicl?
2016-05-27T22:11:51Z aeth: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2016-05-27T22:11:55Z aeth: Iirc, Clasp borrows from it
2016-05-27T22:12:05Z aeth: And probably others
2016-05-27T22:12:09Z prxq: and a plan9 implementation of CL sounds - quixotic
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2016-05-27T22:13:19Z aeth: prxq: CL running on its own microkernel to be used in the cloud would probably get more users than CL on plan 9.
2016-05-27T22:13:51Z fnodeuser: otwieracz: she will become a better programmer by doing it from scratch in assembly
2016-05-27T22:14:19Z sebboh: fnodeuser: on an ATmega
2016-05-27T22:14:28Z fnodeuser: x86_64
2016-05-27T22:14:41Z prxq: that's some wicked assembly :)
2016-05-27T22:14:58Z aeth: fnodeuser: Idaelly, everyone would do everything from scratch, starting with assembly, and building up abstractions all the way to purely declarative languages for every task. It'd be much cleaner than the pile of legacy hacks people use.
2016-05-27T22:15:09Z aeth: Of course, people don't have 300 year lifespans, so this ideal can't happen.
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2016-05-27T22:15:45Z akkad: CL on grub
2016-05-27T22:15:57Z akkad: the new WASM as the ISA
2016-05-27T22:16:02Z fnodeuser: aeth: all the legacy stuff will not be a problem anymore in less than 30 years
2016-05-27T22:16:21Z aeth: Right, new legacy stuff will be the problem.
2016-05-27T22:16:38Z fnodeuser: no, strong AIs will take care things for us
2016-05-27T22:16:53Z fnodeuser: of things
2016-05-27T22:17:18Z rpg[Away]: Looks like SICL wouldn't be suitable for plan9, because it requires a pre-existing CL implementation.
2016-05-27T22:17:34Z aeth: fnodeuser: The last job to be automated away will be writing software... 30 years is an optimistic timeline imo.
2016-05-27T22:17:35Z akkad: remove plan 9 from the equation.
2016-05-27T22:17:39Z fnodeuser: you could still program but not as a profession anymore then
2016-05-27T22:17:52Z akkad: and use minix + ecl
2016-05-27T22:18:03Z akkad: as your preexisting microkernel with CL
2016-05-27T22:18:33Z fnodeuser: less than 30 years, AI research is accelerating and is being funded
2016-05-27T22:19:03Z sebboh: ok, remember how I kept saying something about sshing into the plan9 box?  That's not a thing.  The gui claims to go all the way down...  So you need a gui client, not a ssh client, to connect to the thing.
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2016-05-27T22:19:07Z fnodeuser: but a WWIII could stop progress
2016-05-27T22:19:20Z prxq: fnodeuser: it has been funded for fruitless decade after fruitless decade
2016-05-27T22:19:37Z prxq: like fusion reactors
2016-05-27T22:19:50Z fnodeuser: because they were misled
2016-05-27T22:19:54Z aeth: fnodeuser: modern AI progress depends on modern GPU progress... if GPUs hit into hardware limitations like CPUs have, then AI progress will slow down unless it moves to FPGAs or something
2016-05-27T22:19:56Z prxq: although I'm somewhat more optimistic on the latter
2016-05-27T22:20:21Z prxq: fnodeuser: and they are on the right path now?
2016-05-27T22:20:28Z fnodeuser: yes
2016-05-27T22:20:42Z sebboh: aeth what about uncle G's "TPU" chip?  (tensorflow as an ASIC)
2016-05-27T22:20:51Z prxq: fnodeuser: lol
2016-05-27T22:21:07Z fnodeuser: it is only a matter of time
2016-05-27T22:21:17Z prxq: millions of years
2016-05-27T22:21:20Z aeth: sebboh: I am not aware of that
2016-05-27T22:21:27Z fnodeuser: no, decades
2016-05-27T22:21:33Z prxq: lol
2016-05-27T22:22:08Z fnodeuser: it will be great
2016-05-27T22:22:12Z sebboh: btw did anybody notice that the connector for those TPUs is a PCIe? :)
2016-05-27T22:22:15Z aeth: sebboh: I almost said "FPGAs or ASICs" but I assumed FPGAs would be first
2016-05-27T22:23:24Z fnodeuser: prxq: basic research
2016-05-27T22:24:10Z sebboh: 30 years, pff.  This is happening now.  ...But global events never happen simultaneously around the whole globe, because, for one, speed of sound.. In this case it's speed of news.  Literally no one except a strong AI can 'read the whole paper' as it were, before the next edition comes out, and it's been like that for years.
2016-05-27T22:24:27Z fnodeuser: we have the internet now
2016-05-27T22:24:54Z fnodeuser: globalization will continue until it is completed
2016-05-27T22:25:05Z sebboh: I can't even keep up with what the best way to parse XML is, before somebody comes out with JSON.
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2016-05-27T22:25:59Z sebboh: That sentence came out wrong: I can't even keep up with what the best XML parser is, and now I'm supposed to know what the best JSON parser is, too.
2016-05-27T22:26:44Z aeth: JSON isn't some sort of linear progress over XML.
2016-05-27T22:26:59Z akkad: well json stream parsing is. :P
2016-05-27T22:27:00Z aeth: It does some things better, it does some things worse. XML's biggest flaw was/is its overly verbose syntax
2016-05-27T22:27:11Z prxq: fnodeuser: now now, that's pretty obvious trolling from your part
2016-05-27T22:27:20Z fnodeuser: no, it is the truth
2016-05-27T22:27:33Z fnodeuser: how do you except mankind to progress?
2016-05-27T22:28:06Z prxq: it would help if they stopped programming in C++, for example, and switch to CL
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2016-05-27T22:28:15Z akkad: Xach needs a bot to meter everyone on the scale of DS to Dilettante
2016-05-27T22:28:17Z aeth: Hardware has progressed. Software, not so much.
2016-05-27T22:28:19Z sebboh: My point is that new information comes out faster than I can learn it, and that's been the case for years.  p.s. the latest openssl for 9front is pre-heartbleed, whoops.
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2016-05-27T22:28:52Z aeth: The main area where I'm impressed with software vs. 10 years ago is how realistic computer graphics can look.
2016-05-27T22:28:56Z fnodeuser: that is because of lack of willingness, not because there has been no progress on the software side
2016-05-27T22:30:08Z aeth: Well, actually, it's because of mobile and laptops and using the web browser as the universal client. Developing for weaker computers (or in the case of the browser, a client that adds a ton of overhead) means a lot of progress kind of went backward.
2016-05-27T22:30:14Z fnodeuser: those CG algorithms have existed for decades, they just have more memory and processing power, and it will continue to get better
2016-05-27T22:30:57Z fnodeuser: the universal basic income is also relevant
2016-05-27T22:32:23Z aeth: Also, so many clients that developers develop for have tiny screens... If I had the money, I could buy a 4k desktop monitor today if I wanted to, and have it shipped to me tomorrow, but I wouldn't really have many things that took advantage of the extra pixels and quite a few things would probably look broken.
2016-05-27T22:33:17Z aeth: Everyone cares about the tiny laptop and tablet and phone screens, not the larger desktop screens. Quite a few websites look terrible in 1080p and that's been around for probably close to a decade now in monitors, if not longer.
2016-05-27T22:33:52Z sebboh: A couple of days ago I was in a donut shop playing rummy and I grabbed a scrap of paper to keep score and it was a page torn from an old users' manual for what appeared to be a CPM era spreadsheet application.  Observations: 1. Users were expected to be able to read (relatively) complex English sentences back in the day. and 2. The "apps" for those 8bit CPUs had more features than the apps for smartphones/tablets that are oozing into
2016-05-27T22:33:52Z sebboh: those niches today.
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2016-05-27T22:34:11Z fnodeuser: you could buy a mac with a retina display
2016-05-27T22:34:17Z rpg[Away] is now known as rpg
2016-05-27T22:34:53Z jasom: Probably visicalc sebboh
2016-05-27T22:35:10Z fnodeuser: the laziness and the caring about money only is the problem
2016-05-27T22:35:13Z sebboh: no, I would have recognized that name.
2016-05-27T22:35:15Z sebboh: brb
2016-05-27T22:35:42Z aeth: fnodeuser: The main focus of developer attention is on tiny screens running trivial apps, not either taking advantage of the new big desktop screens or the new desktop hardware capabilities. (Excluding some games, of course.)
2016-05-27T22:35:58Z fnodeuser: smartphones!
2016-05-27T22:36:12Z fnodeuser: let's make a game clone to pocket some money
2016-05-27T22:36:47Z akkad has a delivered full lispworks repl on android working. quicklisp too, mostly
2016-05-27T22:36:56Z fnodeuser: that will slow down eventually, people will learn and they won't tolerate that shit anymore
2016-05-27T22:37:15Z jasom: It also amazed me how fast the race-to-the-bottom for pricing was on mobile
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2016-05-27T22:37:54Z aeth: I have 16 GB of RAM, I could have easily gotten 32 GB instead... and plenty of people have more than that. I have an i7, which means I get 4 cores with hyper-threading, giving me 8 threads. Very few things use all 8 threads. Mostly playing videos and compiling C++. Only the latter actually uses 100% of all 8.
2016-05-27T22:38:07Z fnodeuser: aeth: they will be out of the market in a few years
2016-05-27T22:38:11Z aeth: The only piece of hardware I could buy that developers care about utilizing 100% of is a graphics card.
2016-05-27T22:38:22Z aeth: s/hardware/desktop hardware/
2016-05-27T22:38:33Z aeth: Servers and phones obviously are pushed constantly.
2016-05-27T22:38:38Z Bike: i hear you only use 10% of your brain, and that goes fine,
2016-05-27T22:38:49Z fnodeuser: that's false
2016-05-27T22:38:52Z reepca: oGMo: No, all my tests have been consistent with that, I just wanted to make sure it was supposed to be that way and I wasn't depending on anything implementation-dependent, as seems to be the case with EQ so often. Also, when reference-tracking is enabled, do *all* of the decoded objects get remembered (including stuff like integers), and do you have any suggestions on managing memory usage for communication of indefinite duration?
2016-05-27T22:39:06Z akkad: now to sell it on android store
2016-05-27T22:39:13Z rpg: Bike:  I've always wondered what people think the rest of the brain is doing when that happens? Powered down? Not getting oxygen?
2016-05-27T22:39:52Z phoe_krk: having weird thoughts
2016-05-27T22:39:57Z aeth: Bike: Evolution wouldn't permit the inefficiency of having an energy-expensive thing that is that underutilized. Of course, desktops are built rather than evolved and so they're inefficent like this :p
2016-05-27T22:40:03Z Bike: not firing, probably
2016-05-27T22:40:07Z fnodeuser: aeth: again, money is the reason, also the ease of distributing and selling the software has made the problem worse, even back then they sold shitty software, just less of it
2016-05-27T22:40:18Z Bike: in which case it's pretty true (oh no)
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2016-05-27T22:41:50Z reepca: I imagine it's a bit like people saying "did you know most computers only use under 1% of their address space?"
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2016-05-27T22:42:27Z fnodeuser: that does not mean that it is not 100% efficient to do so
2016-05-27T22:42:27Z aeth: fnodeuser: Terrible software has always been a major problem. In fact, people commonly blame a flood of terrible games as killing the game industry in the early 1980s. If only the same could happen to the mobile game industry today.
2016-05-27T22:42:40Z Bike: yeah. having more space means you can churn things up more. you don't have to be using the entire space at once, and if you were it would be less efficient in that you couldn't do any temporary allocations.
2016-05-27T22:42:48Z edgar-rft thinks the other 90% of the brain are used by Google Ads
2016-05-27T22:44:08Z fnodeuser: thousands of bad games for only tens and hundreds of good games, it takes time to find the good ones, but the good thing is, people do search for the good ones and spread the word about those games
2016-05-27T22:44:47Z aeth: They do? I haven't downloaded a mobile game in years. Maybe it's just an Android problem and all the good mobile games are on iOS.
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2016-05-27T22:45:18Z aeth: Mobile seems to be flooded with the worst of the games, basically games that were on Facebook 6-8 years ago, more like a gambling game than a video game.
2016-05-27T22:45:32Z dpg joined #lisp
2016-05-27T22:46:00Z aeth: And the few that are real games have gigantic banner ads, which are really annoying when the screen is tiny.
2016-05-27T22:46:03Z reepca: Does anyone else feel like "smartphones" tend to be more like appliances and less like computers? If I understand correctly, you can only run a pre-defined set of software that has been vendor-approved, right?
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2016-05-27T22:46:19Z fnodeuser: it's about good designs, but most programmers just use libraries, they never design and implement anything new themselves, they don't have the skills, the patience, or they just care about money
2016-05-27T22:46:46Z fnodeuser: aeth: edge by mobigame is a good mobile game that has been released for desktop computers also
2016-05-27T22:47:11Z aeth: fnodeuser: yes, that's the thing, the good mobile games are usually also on Steam, where I play them on a larger screen.
2016-05-27T22:47:26Z aeth: But this is just the game subset.
2016-05-27T22:47:31Z fnodeuser: yes
2016-05-27T22:47:34Z aeth: Mobile and browser general applications (excluding games) are worse.
2016-05-27T22:47:43Z aeth: They're rarely innovative imo.
2016-05-27T22:47:44Z Bike: reepca: an "app store" isn't that different from a linux distribution's repositories, and plenty of people "jailbreak" their phones to run arbitrary binaries.
2016-05-27T22:48:19Z sebboh: Anyway, look, pictures of machines with lots of PCIe slots! http://www.servethehome.com/avago-plx-future-pcie/ And here's pictures of the terminator's "learning computer" chip: https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/05/Google-supercharges-machine-learning-tasks-with-custom-chip.html (ok, actually, near as I can tell, the TPU is an optimzation of runtime performance, not train-time performance...)
2016-05-27T22:48:19Z fnodeuser: for example a lot of audio and video software is from chinese people for things that you can have for free
2016-05-27T22:48:46Z fnodeuser: and almost all those applications suck
2016-05-27T22:49:03Z aeth: Bike: Actually, the difference is that there's sandboxing, which does prevent certain kinds of applications (e.g. editors). Ubuntu has introduced a mobile-style sandboxed model in addition to its traditional repositories.
2016-05-27T22:49:24Z fnodeuser: quick money
2016-05-27T22:49:30Z aeth: Well, I mean, you can have sandboxed editors, they just can't easily edit everything. No universal editors like emacs.
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2016-05-27T22:50:06Z fnodeuser: aeth: how about the trend with 'cloud' services and 'social media' integration
2016-05-27T22:50:20Z reepca: Bike: but I haven't heard of a linux distribution that *only* allowed you to use software from their repositories, and I don't know if jailbreaking is widely possible, or if it's ever supported. Come to think of it, I don't know much about jailbreaking in general. I should look it up
2016-05-27T22:51:15Z aeth: fnodeuser: That's more about "monetization" than a good user experience. You usually can't monetize a good user experience these days.
2016-05-27T22:51:46Z aeth: fnodeuser: What I've noticed is that many things start nice at a loss, and then slowly introduce increasingly user-hostile behavior and add dark patterns under investor pressure.
2016-05-27T22:51:58Z sebboh: reepca: ya, you nailed it.  The next generation of "computer" users will have no idea what "general purpose" or "arbitrary" means.
2016-05-27T22:52:24Z fnodeuser: reepca: it's about having administrator/root rights/privileges/permissions
2016-05-27T22:52:37Z jbakid: does anyone know where i can find documentation for ECL? i’ve looked around everywhere. i’d like to write a tutorial
2016-05-27T22:52:39Z Bike: it's a managed system. "you can only run software signed/produced/something by an authority" isn't unique to phones or anything.
2016-05-27T22:52:55Z Bike: jbakid: this? https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/
2016-05-27T22:53:06Z sebboh: Bike, but it's unique to the 21st century.
2016-05-27T22:53:18Z jbakid: how have i not found this? i’ve looked forever and i’m a pretty good googler
2016-05-27T22:53:19Z Bike: it's really not. it just wasn't as mainstream.
2016-05-27T22:53:25Z fnodeuser: aeth: there are still people who refuse to release software that sucks and that's a good thing
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2016-05-27T22:54:30Z sebboh: If you don't want to have to pay each time you fire up an editor, you probably want libre software.  And if you want libre software, you probably want a libre OS, and libre hardware.  And that last one is what this is about: https://puri.sm/posts/petition-for-intel-to-release-an-me-less-cpu-design/
2016-05-27T22:54:32Z aeth: fnodeuser: For every one of those there's 10 OpenSSLs, and the latter tend to be more popular.
2016-05-27T22:54:43Z Bike: i think i'm still young enough that it's reasonable to allow this "kids these days" stuff to bug me
2016-05-27T22:54:45Z TMA: sebboh: it is not. being locked down and locked out is the default state for much of the known history
2016-05-27T22:55:31Z XachX_: akkad: de?
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2016-05-27T22:55:37Z XachX_: Ds rather
2016-05-27T22:56:40Z fnodeuser: aeth: things are changing, security and privacy are something that many people didn't take seriously, that is changing quickly as our lives depend more and more on computers
2016-05-27T22:56:54Z sebboh: TMA, what part of the PDP-11 were you locked out of?  What part of the c64 was I locked out of?  The PentiumPro was the first CPU that I know of which had microcode...
2016-05-27T22:57:11Z aeth: sebboh: Pressuring Intel will do nothing. Buy a RISC-V or something.
2016-05-27T22:57:19Z fnodeuser: stallman, eff, aclu, and others are doing what they can
2016-05-27T22:57:26Z aeth: Of course, lowrisc won't have any GPU so you can't use it as your general purpose computer...
2016-05-27T22:57:33Z sebboh: And I've never heard of the microcode on a PPro being used to check the sig on a boot loader. There were no sigs on boot loaders...
2016-05-27T22:58:43Z akkad: XachX_: "#lisp It is a magnet for dipshits and dilettantes"
2016-05-27T23:00:10Z fnodeuser: here is something that you can all buy to program on the go https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gpd-win-intel-z8550-win-10-os-game-console#/
2016-05-27T23:00:35Z fnodeuser: for completely open hardware we'll have to wait a bit longer
2016-05-27T23:00:59Z aeth: for completely open hardware: http://www.lowrisc.org/
2016-05-27T23:01:03Z aeth: but wow we've gone very far off topic
2016-05-27T23:01:06Z fnodeuser: or DIY
2016-05-27T23:01:39Z aeth: I think the topic was porting CL to Plan 9?
2016-05-27T23:01:51Z fnodeuser: yes, CL implementation written in x86_64 assembly
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2016-05-27T23:03:14Z jackdaniel: akkad: mind sharing the reporting code? also, I've asked you if you could test if mcclim (from quicklisp) loads fine from allegro on query – have you missed it by chance? regarding the deflate benchmark I think that chipz/salza has some implementation-specific code, but don't know
2016-05-27T23:03:26Z sebboh: aeth, pressuring intel is a way to have this conversation.  This one, here.  Before somebody did it, we weren't talking about this. :)  A non-computer person asked me to explain why I use computers so much if they make me so angry... I explained that I don't like her imagination being limited by her apps which are limited by her OS which is limited by her hardware which is flat-out, deliberately limited by a board room, somewhere
2016-05-27T23:03:26Z sebboh: (populated by people that put their pants on one leg at a time!).  And she said, "fuck you, dave!" and went on to explain that "it's everything", not just computers, that is suffering from that malaise.
2016-05-27T23:04:17Z fnodeuser: educate those people
2016-05-27T23:04:19Z sebboh: oh, we're on topic now?
2016-05-27T23:04:26Z sebboh wanders off
2016-05-27T23:04:26Z akkad: jackdaniel: sure, just limited to fbsd. :[
2016-05-27T23:04:27Z jackdaniel: engblom: please put the build log and the configure options with description of steps you did on the gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues , thanks
2016-05-27T23:04:36Z jackdaniel: akkad: not a problem if it has X
2016-05-27T23:04:46Z jackdaniel: I want to now if it a) loads, b) runs
2016-05-27T23:04:50Z akkad: jackdaniel: let me cleanup the code, as it's a bit of cl and ruby atm
2016-05-27T23:04:51Z jackdaniel: I'm off to bed now, thanks
2016-05-27T23:05:02Z jackdaniel: akkad: sure, no rush
2016-05-27T23:05:04Z jackdaniel: good night o/
2016-05-27T23:05:08Z fnodeuser: drink a jackdaniel's first
2016-05-27T23:05:24Z TMA: sebboh: IBM mainframes have had hidden features for decades; but yeah, computing was mostly an exception to that rule until recently -- I was just saying that locking down computing just brings computing on par with other things
2016-05-27T23:05:39Z jackdaniel: fnodeuser: I had my haineken today, so no whiskey ;)
2016-05-27T23:05:44Z fnodeuser: :P
2016-05-27T23:05:47Z sebboh: fnodeuser: my line must have got cut off (it didn't, it's 2016 and I'm using ERC); it was she that educated me.  Did you know that hardly anyone makes quality hairbrushes anymore?
2016-05-27T23:06:03Z Valheru quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-05-27T23:06:08Z fnodeuser: short hair is the best
2016-05-27T23:06:16Z sebboh: TMA, oh.  Yeah, I heard that elsewhere recently, see above.
2016-05-27T23:09:56Z sebboh: well, I was promised magic, and I've been studying, and inundated with stories about "nerds" (I literally used quote marks) who got their genies out of the bottles and went on to, oh, I dunno, build their own #$%E space ships and or AIs.  I'll be damned if my (shuffle 'personal 'assistant 'thinking) is going to ask me to deposit a quarter every five minutes, and I'll lose my mind if it plays an advert when I don't...
2016-05-27T23:10:45Z sebboh: We gotta get this table stable.
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2016-05-27T23:11:15Z fnodeuser: AGIs won't be slaves, they'll be friends of ours
2016-05-27T23:11:55Z sebboh: If you have a killswitch in your head, can you be my friend?
2016-05-27T23:12:09Z sebboh: I'm not saying I'd hold the button, but if the switch exists...
2016-05-27T23:12:52Z fnodeuser: think of it like a child, with the right nurture is will be a good mechanical person, or it could become an evil person with bad upbringing
2016-05-27T23:13:26Z fnodeuser: because if we base the design on the human brain it will have human qualities also
2016-05-27T23:13:46Z xristos: humans with good upbringing don't go rogue?
2016-05-27T23:14:01Z sebboh: Qualcomm SafeSwitch. Intel Management Engine. AMD Platform Security Processor.
2016-05-27T23:14:21Z fnodeuser: not if they have been raised and educated properly, and some become altruists also
2016-05-27T23:14:42Z xristos: fnodeuser: bullshit
2016-05-27T23:14:44Z aeth: fnodeuser: Iirc, CL died the first time because of overly optimistic AI promises like yours.
2016-05-27T23:14:49Z aeth: Please don't kill it again.
2016-05-27T23:15:10Z fnodeuser: it doesn't depend on how you were raised you can still be influenced by good
2016-05-27T23:15:26Z fnodeuser: only on how
2016-05-27T23:15:43Z fnodeuser: human nature isn't that simple
2016-05-27T23:15:50Z xristos: fnodeuser: humans with excellent upbringing can have strokes, psychotic breakdowns or other serious mental "glitches" and go totally sideways
2016-05-27T23:15:53Z fnodeuser: it's not black and white
2016-05-27T23:16:15Z fnodeuser: that becomes clear quickly if the brain is mafunctioning
2016-05-27T23:16:34Z fnodeuser: the brain, not the mind
2016-05-27T23:17:12Z xristos: psychosis is a mind thing
2016-05-27T23:17:40Z TMA: sebboh: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9XFnbFIMAEj8rF.jpg [P.K.Dick - Ubik]
2016-05-27T23:17:40Z fnodeuser: yes and it has a cause, it doesn't manifest spontaneously
2016-05-27T23:17:53Z xristos: i like how certain of everything you are ;p
2016-05-27T23:17:57Z fnodeuser: :)
2016-05-27T23:18:00Z xristos: in a domain where we're like apes
2016-05-27T23:18:09Z xristos: banging rocks together, trying to build a warpdrive
2016-05-27T23:18:15Z fnodeuser: we all begin knowing nothing
2016-05-27T23:18:22Z sebboh: fnodeuser: Yes.  There are good people.  Sorry, I forget some people don't know what you're telling me now. :)  Yeah, it's clear to everybody with a certain belief structure that humans are the sum of their parts and we're on the verge of (let's just call that 'now', in geological time!) getting good enough at putting parts together that we'll be able to make minds.  I totally get it.  I'm not complaining about our tech. I'm complaining
2016-05-27T23:18:22Z sebboh: about the various bosses, leaders, etc.  The odds were in their favor ENOUGH when they had pointier sticks, they don't NEED decades old CL AIs to help them maintain that edge... ;P
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2016-05-27T23:20:00Z sebboh: much less "warehouse scale computing".
2016-05-27T23:20:33Z fnodeuser: two things, universal basic income and http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm, these will help you imagine, and realize that a change is needed, everything gets better or we disappear
2016-05-27T23:20:49Z fnodeuser: these changes are coming
2016-05-27T23:21:46Z aeth: I'm kind of disturbed with all this focus on AGI safety now that we can get an AI to play Go. This is sort of like talking about self-driving-car safety in the 1940s or 1950s.
2016-05-27T23:22:19Z sebboh: aeth, it's not because of AlphaGo.  It's because of DeapDream.
2016-05-27T23:22:40Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeepDream
2016-05-27T23:22:42Z aeth: this?
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2016-05-27T23:22:56Z sebboh: yes
2016-05-27T23:23:04Z aeth: still not HAL
2016-05-27T23:23:19Z fnodeuser: those algorithms do not lead to self-awareness
2016-05-27T23:23:37Z fnodeuser: it's not an artificial mind
2016-05-27T23:23:38Z sebboh: aeth, do you notice anything weird about those images?
2016-05-27T23:23:46Z sebboh: fnodeuser: hold
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2016-05-27T23:24:00Z fnodeuser: press and hold :P
2016-05-27T23:24:48Z aeth: sebboh: Those are distorted images. I'd be more impressed by a computer making its own 3D world to some degree of realism, even though the latter is actually probably easier.
2016-05-27T23:24:49Z ChibaPet: Fear of AI is a bit silly.
2016-05-27T23:25:31Z akkad: fear of AI plugged into augment humans, that is scarry
2016-05-27T23:25:53Z aeth: Fear of Google, Facebook, Apple, and Microsoft not actually having our best interests in mind is perfectly rational.
2016-05-27T23:26:07Z ChibaPet: Eh. The idea is that intelligences must be nurtured, biological or machine.
2016-05-27T23:26:07Z aeth: And any big AI is coming from those four.
2016-05-27T23:26:12Z reepca: hehe, get it, 'cause augmenting surgery... scars... heh... sorry.
2016-05-27T23:26:14Z fnodeuser: we'll see how far biology can take us with genetic engineering also
2016-05-27T23:26:45Z ChibaPet: I want my kids to exceed me in every way. I don't fear what they will do if they are more capable than me.
2016-05-27T23:27:23Z sebboh: Many ordinary people immediately identify those images as 'trippy'.  Not like "those are done in the style of psychedellic art".  More like "wtf that's exactly the sort of images my own optic/neural hardware produced when I was tripping".  And FYI deepdream spread through the social webs waaaay more than alphago did.  So tons of people started to believe that "they" "figured out" how to put a human like thing in a box.  I know that's
2016-05-27T23:27:23Z sebboh: not the case.  Pretty sure that image matching network doesn't even have real loops in it. :)  BUT, that's where the sudden AI safety fear comes from , afaik.
2016-05-27T23:27:36Z aeth: I think that designing tools (in CL) to augment human intelligence rather than chasing after an AGI is a much better way to go. Computers do some things well, humans do some things well.
2016-05-27T23:27:53Z phoe_krk: "Practically every one of the top 40 records being played on every radio station in the United States is a communication to the children to take a trip, to drop out, to groove..."
2016-05-27T23:28:19Z ChibaPet: Just to get this out there, all (working) software augments human intelligence.
2016-05-27T23:28:24Z sebboh: phoe_krk: what's that from?
2016-05-27T23:28:29Z aeth: ChibaPet: right
2016-05-27T23:28:38Z fnodeuser: they are ignorant, that's why they are afraid
2016-05-27T23:28:41Z aeth: ChibaPet: well, when it's not actively misleading people, which happens a lot
2016-05-27T23:28:49Z ChibaPet: Right. All useful software.
2016-05-27T23:28:54Z sebboh: ChibaPet: I call that idea "the metalbaby"
2016-05-27T23:28:59Z aeth: (The digital advertising industry is a good example of something that exists solely to actively mislead people.)
2016-05-27T23:29:00Z fnodeuser: the same thing with 2012 maya, and the collider experiment
2016-05-27T23:29:16Z ChibaPet: sebboh: Seems a reasonable name.
2016-05-27T23:29:27Z fnodeuser: they believe nonsense and they are ignorant, the unknown is scary
2016-05-27T23:29:33Z phoe_krk: sebboh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c9U5GHJZFE and google the quote itself, it has a longer story.
2016-05-27T23:29:38Z sebboh: ChibaPet: the "you have to raise intelligence", not the "all software augments".  Though I agree with the latter too.
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2016-05-27T23:29:49Z aeth: ChibaPet: The Engelbart approach seems to have had more success than the HAL 9000 approach, even though the UIs are not as good as I think Engelbart fans would have hoped in the 1960s/1970s.
2016-05-27T23:29:50Z ChibaPet: aeth: Really, it's fair to say that the problem with the advertising industry is both the economic model that fosters it and the people who drive it.
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2016-05-27T23:30:47Z sebboh: well kids see you on the streets, I never get much of a chance to IRC on the weekends. :)
2016-05-27T23:31:16Z fnodeuser: aeth: both will happen
2016-05-27T23:31:26Z fnodeuser: sebboh: you are leaving?
2016-05-27T23:31:37Z sebboh: oh, un hold. sorry
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2016-05-27T23:32:10Z fnodeuser: press any key, i can't find the any key :P
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2016-05-27T23:55:55Z oGMo: reepca: iirc "trivial" objects like numbers _don't_ get remembered, so refs won't be generated for them; of course that's implementation-specific
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2016-05-27T23:57:24Z oGMo: reepca: you should only use/count-on refs working within a single decode .. in theory you could treat things as a neverending stream, but in reality it won't work thta way
2016-05-27T23:58:05Z oGMo: reepca: e.g., first you send #(ob1 ob2) then you send #(ob2 ob3), but the first encode didn't see the second encode and didn't tag/track ob2
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2016-05-27T23:59:26Z oGMo: reepca: mostly refs are for circularity and some efficiency per encode.. if you want to _continuously_ track a well-defined set of objects your code knows about, use "remote refs" and establish your own protocol for that
2016-05-27T23:59:34Z oGMo: that's what r-refs are for