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2016-05-26T17:11:33Z names: ccl-logbot gabriel_laddel d4ryus bullets mastokley beach araujo holly1 SamF dreamaddict bikeshedr harish DrCode schjetne frgo tax _sjs Bike yrk gingerale jsgrant_ nowhere_man rpg Karl_Dscc mishoo maucar krrrcks nzambe mathrick_ pepton dyelar kobain sz0 adolf_stalin happy-dude warweasle smokeink vlatkoB_ al-damiri eudoxia profess skbierm jerme |2701 LiamH rme JuanDaugherty unbalancedparen m0li Guest56272 scymtym sytse rgrau drdo rotty bogdanm papachan` devon
2016-05-26T17:11:33Z names: loke Nikotiini hlavaty kushal lnostdal sjl blub`` angavrilov kjeldahl MrWoohoo shka omilu PlasmaStar reepca payphone Wizek__ Cymew xmad gniourf sauvin eschatologist andrei-n s00pcan jbakid schoppenhauer Davidbrcz gko sepi` Patzy defaultxr edgar-rft ircbrowse lpaste ivan4th fe[nl]ix Blkt pavelpenev steelbird msb bigfondue Posterdati Bourne Blukunfando illusionmedic dilated_dinosaur sswords moredhel DGASAU watersoul karswell srcerer taij33n theBlackDragon
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2016-05-26T17:11:33Z names: vaporatorius danlentz pootler_ mjl ksool Khisanth ryan_vw resttime mhsjlw lancetw rvirding cantstanya bbz_ fluter jtz spacebat1 lieven axion shikhin heddwch l1x gendl gabot radioninja_work clop swflint brucem CompanionCube oGMo PuercoPop ramus_ Thulsadu1 des_consolado j0ni anunnaki_ cods WojciechK vlnx_ cyraxjoe djinni` vsync_ fitzsim` redline6561 DeadTrickster aeth tiago Xach snits hjudt_ papachan easye brkr josteink specbot engblom jn__ dim god arpunk
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2016-05-26T17:11:33Z names: angular_mike lispyone NhanH ggherdov Lord_of_Life gz__ daytime mordocai el-mikl aerique tessier_ ecraven getha danieli_ arrsim isoraqathedh flip214 kilimanjaro wyan XachX_ akkad neuri8- Cthulhux` ferada SHODAN Oladon pillton jackdaniel mj12` CEnnis91 johs niko oystewh mmos phoe_krk ssake Intensity micro` mach Grauwolf AdmiralBumbleBee taargus429496729 krypt dxtr cmbntr jself Fade __main__ hzp cross froggey Subfusc Zotan marsjaninzmarsa tsp1 eschulte_ ck_
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2016-05-26T17:13:25Z PuercoPop: btw what is the best way to start developing a new backend?
2016-05-26T17:13:46Z gabriel_laddel: PuercoPop: not to do it
2016-05-26T17:13:57Z gabriel_laddel: the idea of "backends" is fundamentally broken
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2016-05-26T17:14:10Z PuercoPop: I tried defining an empty system that doesn't load any backends and then running (clim-demo:demodemo) expecting errors about missing methods but it just hangs
2016-05-26T17:14:25Z beach: PuercoPop: You need to wait until I clean up the mess with mirrored sheets.
2016-05-26T17:14:38Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: check the package :clim-backend in package.lisp , but don't start building a backend, api will change soon probably
2016-05-26T17:14:43Z gabriel_laddel: PuercoPop: you need the CLX (native) backend..
2016-05-26T17:14:47Z beach: PuercoPop: There is a "null" backend that you may try.
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2016-05-26T17:14:55Z gabriel_laddel: PuercoPop: are you running on top of stumpwm?
2016-05-26T17:15:29Z PuercoPop: From reading ports and frame-managers gtk's gdk seems to be a good match and provides a similar api than X but also works on windows
2016-05-26T17:15:33Z schjetne: PuercoPop: what kind of backend did you have in mind?
2016-05-26T17:15:40Z PuercoPop: gabriel_laddel: no (I can run McClim just fine)
2016-05-26T17:15:50Z beach: PuercoPop: Currently, MIRRORED-SHEET is a superclass of BASIC-PANE or something like that.  This is completely wrong, because whether a sheet is mirrored or not should be up to the backend.
2016-05-26T17:15:53Z PuercoPop: schjetne: a gtk backend using cl-cffi-gtk
2016-05-26T17:15:53Z jackdaniel is afk
2016-05-26T17:16:00Z schjetne: ah
2016-05-26T17:16:05Z beach: PuercoPop: I need to fix that before you can write a different backend.
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2016-05-26T17:17:40Z beach: PuercoPop: The result of this design flaw is that it is possible to have only backends that allow nested native windows.
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2016-05-26T17:18:09Z PuercoPop: beach: is fixing mirrored-sheet high on your priorities?
2016-05-26T17:18:21Z beach: Fairly high, yes.
2016-05-26T17:18:42Z beach: I want to move the mirroring to the backend, then write a new CLX backend that uses a single top-level window.  This new backend can then be used as a model for others.
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2016-05-26T17:19:44Z beach: PuercoPop: Now, if you want to help me investigate how to more the mirroring out of the main code base to the backend, that would be wonderful.
2016-05-26T17:19:50Z beach: how to MOVE.
2016-05-26T17:20:10Z beach: But maybe you don't have time and/or knowledge enough for that.
2016-05-26T17:21:15Z beach: Needless to say, I tried the obvious, i.e., just remove MIRRORED-SHEET as a superclass.  It failed in some other, seemingly unrelated, way.
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2016-05-26T17:23:11Z PuercoPop: beach: I think it is more a on the knowledge side. I'll see if reading the code side to side with the spec helps. The idea is to move as much of the code that deals with mirrors to the backend right?
2016-05-26T17:23:32Z beach: Pretty much, yes.
2016-05-26T17:23:51Z beach: Only the root window (the GRAFT maybe) can be mirrored in all backends.
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2016-05-26T17:28:42Z schjetne: Speaking of toolkits, I picked up a book on Cocoa today, because I wanted to take a crack at Cocoa development with CCL after the subject came up at ELS
2016-05-26T17:29:03Z schjetne: I just hope I don't have to spend too much time learning Objective C before I can go back to Lisp
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2016-05-26T17:29:39Z beach: Aren't there Common Lisp bindings for Cocoa?
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2016-05-26T17:30:18Z schjetne: There are, but coming in with absolutely zero knowledge of Cocoa the CCL manual on the subject was a bit hard to follow
2016-05-26T17:30:28Z beach: Let me guess: Documentation assumes you already know Cocoa AND objective C.
2016-05-26T17:30:50Z schjetne: Not to mention that I'm not even used to doing plain CFFI stuff
2016-05-26T17:31:00Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2016-05-26T17:31:37Z Xach: I think it's geared toward someone who is very familiar with how to make apps already and wants to use CL instead of Objective C. It is not like Macintosh Common Lisp, where everything had an easy lispy abstraction.
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2016-05-26T17:32:13Z schjetne: Xach: did that ever run on OS X?
2016-05-26T17:32:16Z Xach: Perhaps "geared toward" is not the right phrase. But because of how it works, that is the kind of person who can work the fastest with it.
2016-05-26T17:32:23Z schjetne: Or was that the old Macintosh Toolbox?
2016-05-26T17:32:26Z Xach: schjetne: I don't think so.
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2016-05-26T17:33:21Z schjetne: It would be fun to dig up an old Mac and try it and see what it would have been like, had I started out with CL instead of HyperCard
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2016-05-26T17:37:23Z schjetne: Xach: Turns out it did run on Mac OS X: https://web.archive.org/web/20071011031230/http://digitool.com/
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2016-05-26T17:41:04Z schjetne: I'm going to see if I can download it, I'm curious to see what the IDE looks like.
2016-05-26T17:41:16Z schjetne: Just need to bring up the old PPC box
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2016-05-26T17:52:37Z pjb: schjetne: https://gitlab.com/patchwork/mclgui ; however it's still in progress. there are bugs… :-(
2016-05-26T17:53:04Z pjb: also the current "development" branch is refacto-views.
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2016-05-26T17:54:18Z schjetne: pjb: neat, thanks!
2016-05-26T17:55:00Z schjetne: It's mostly out of historical curiosity, I wouldn't be surprised if Toolbox support is long since gone from modern OS X
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2016-05-26T17:58:09Z fluxit: Hey all- So I've been trying to write something (as macro practice) which converts an unbound variable into a string, while preserving case.
2016-05-26T17:58:10Z fluxit: Something like: (test-macro non-symbol-Here) -> "non-symbol-Here" .
2016-05-26T17:58:33Z fluxit: So... after trying for hours I'm finally giving up- anyone know how to do it? (I'm beyond stuck)
2016-05-26T17:59:01Z eschatologist: OS X still supports many toolbox APIs in 32-bit.
2016-05-26T17:59:12Z pjb: schjetne: yes, it's gone (there are emulators, but mcl wouldn't work on them directly, debugging in order).  mclgui re-implements it on Cocoa.
2016-05-26T17:59:36Z schjetne: Ah, that's what it is
2016-05-26T17:59:44Z schjetne: I misunderstood
2016-05-26T18:00:08Z pjb: fluxit: (defmacro test-macro (symbol) (symbol-name symbol)) (test-macro hello-world) #| --> "HELLO-WORLD" |#
2016-05-26T18:00:09Z schjetne: Even better!
2016-05-26T18:00:45Z Xach: fluxit: the reader controls how the symbol is read, not the macro
2016-05-26T18:01:00Z Xach: fluxit: by default, it will upcase the symbol name as it is read.
2016-05-26T18:01:08Z pjb: fluxit: (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) (TEST-MACRO non-symbol-Here) #| --> "non-symbol-Here" |#  (SETF (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*) :UPCASE)
2016-05-26T18:01:25Z Xach: fluxit: you can force a specific symbol name by using escape characters, regardless of reader case settings
2016-05-26T18:01:36Z Xach: for example: (test-macro |non-symbol-Here|)
2016-05-26T18:01:44Z pjb: (test-macro |non-symbol-Here|) #| --> "non-symbol-Here" |#
2016-05-26T18:01:47Z fluxit: pjb: I've tried writing something similar but It just doesn't work
2016-05-26T18:02:04Z pjb: fluxit: notice that there's no backquote. Did you use a backquote?
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2016-05-26T18:02:58Z fluxit: Xach: I've tried making a macro that uses vertical-characters, but they don't allow you to unquote (as they get read as literals, and I'm not sure how to get past it)
2016-05-26T18:03:08Z fluxit: vertical-bar characters*
2016-05-26T18:03:22Z pjb: fluxit: what's wrong with symbol-name?
2016-05-26T18:03:27Z pjb: fluxit: (defmacro test-macro (symbol) (symbol-name symbol)) (test-macro hello-world) #| --> "HELLO-WORLD" |#
2016-05-26T18:03:29Z Xach: fluxit: the macro is too late. by that time the reader has already processed the symbol in the way it will be processed.
2016-05-26T18:03:44Z Xach: fluxit: there is quite literally nothing you can do by the time the code is given to the macro function.
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2016-05-26T18:04:22Z Xach: fluxit: it must be read with the vertical bars if you want to control result of the reader that way.
2016-05-26T18:04:28Z pjb: fluxit: see: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137262
2016-05-26T18:04:54Z fluxit: pjb: I want to preserve case, which symbol-name would do if preserve was set- but playing with the readtable-case doesn't seem to work inside a function/macro
2016-05-26T18:05:12Z pjb: then you want to use |thePipes|
2016-05-26T18:05:24Z Bike: inside the macro function is too late, the symbol has already been read.
2016-05-26T18:05:27Z pjb: and also |the pipes !|
2016-05-26T18:05:35Z Bike: the macro function receives the already-read symbol as an argument.
2016-05-26T18:05:41Z pjb: (test-macro |the Pipes !|)
2016-05-26T18:05:46Z pjb:  #| --> "the Pipes !" |#
2016-05-26T18:06:56Z pjb: fluxit: but with a reader macro you could write something like:  «non-symbol-Here» --> "non-symbol-Here"
2016-05-26T18:06:57Z fluxit: How would I go about making something which did: (fn unbound) -> | unbound | ?
2016-05-26T18:07:41Z Bike: there would be no way for fn to distinguish if the source text said "unbound" or "UNBOUND".
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2016-05-26T18:08:28Z pjb: fluxit: you would have to put a reader macro on #\( make it read the "fn" characters, then decide to read unbound as a string, otherwise implement the normal reader macro for #\( (you could call the previous #\( reader macro on a concatenated stream with ( and the read characters, followed by the current stream).
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2016-05-26T18:09:41Z pjb: (defmacro fn (symbol) `',(intern  (format nil " ~(~A~) " symbol))) #| --> fn |#  (fn unbound) #| --> | unbound | |#
2016-05-26T18:13:43Z fluxit: thanks pjb- your solution doesn't involve reader macros though, correct? (Is format doing what you previously described under the hood?)
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2016-05-26T18:14:26Z Bike: it just downcases the symbol name unconditionally.
2016-05-26T18:14:40Z Bike: so (fn UNbound) also --> | unbound |
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2016-05-26T18:16:43Z fluxit: (Oh :P Must have had :preserve set)
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2016-05-26T18:37:18Z papachan`: under CL there is (let  and (flet whats difference?
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2016-05-26T18:38:35Z catato: ahh it's a wonderful day
2016-05-26T18:40:11Z phoe_krk: papachan`: LET is for variables, FLET is for functions.
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2016-05-26T19:15:33Z phoe_krk: "Wcl used to be cross compiled when I first wrote it 26 years ago"
2016-05-26T19:15:45Z phoe_krk: this sounds scary, in a way... I didn't even exist 26 years ago
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2016-05-26T19:28:27Z ejbs: Anyone know what ECLs .rc file is called and where it's stored? In other words: I want to load Quicklisp on startup for ECL, where's the file where I put the code?
2016-05-26T19:28:46Z Xach: ejbs: one easy way to do that is (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") then (ql:add-to-init-file)
2016-05-26T19:28:56Z Xach: ejbs: it will print where the file is before doing any work
2016-05-26T19:29:11Z Xach can't remember offhand
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2016-05-26T19:29:55Z ejbs: Xach:  Ah, okay, thanks!
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2016-05-26T19:34:42Z jackdaniel: .eclrc
2016-05-26T19:34:54Z jackdaniel: but yeah, using add-to-init-file does a trick :)
2016-05-26T19:35:09Z ejbs: jackdaniel: the file didn't exist and I now realised that I could've just made it myself haha
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2016-05-26T19:41:54Z ejbs: I'm trying to find the def. of a deftype, M-. isn't of any help. You got any tricks for finding it?
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2016-05-26T19:42:49Z jackdaniel: definition of deftype in ecl? it's probably in src/lsp/pred.lsp
2016-05-26T19:43:12Z jackdaniel: M-. works here
2016-05-26T19:43:16Z ejbs: jackdaniel: Of A deftype. So someone has defined PATTERN-TYPE with deftype (I assume) and I try to find it
2016-05-26T19:43:21Z jackdaniel: you don't have sources on your system apparently
2016-05-26T19:43:31Z jackdaniel: its in src/lsp/predlib.lsp
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2016-05-26T19:44:08Z jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/316869 for reference
2016-05-26T19:44:09Z ejbs: So there's a (deftype pattern-type ...) somewhere in a system and I wanna find it
2016-05-26T19:44:24Z jackdaniel: ah, you want to find pattern-type definition
2016-05-26T19:44:27Z jackdaniel: not deftype definition
2016-05-26T19:44:28Z jackdaniel: sorry
2016-05-26T19:44:33Z ejbs: who-calls not implemented on ECL... Gonna continue with my detective work
2016-05-26T19:44:45Z ejbs: It's okay, I was unclear and youre just trying to help a stranger on IRC :)
2016-05-26T19:45:11Z jackdaniel: ejbs: I'm usually doing 'grep -rni "(deftype.*pattern-type" ~/quicklisp)"'
2016-05-26T19:45:23Z ejbs: jackdaniel: Smart! Use UNIX
2016-05-26T19:45:25Z jackdaniel: ejbs: I'm usually doing 'grep -rni "(deftype.*pattern-type" ~/quicklisp' °
2016-05-26T19:46:08Z jackdaniel: dumb approach is in some rare occasions smart approach (luckily to me)
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2016-05-26T20:09:39Z ejbs: So Lisp offers no standard way of extracting how a type is defined, right? Any SBCL wizards in here who knows how to extract info?
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2016-05-26T20:09:47Z ejbs: I found sb-kernel::specifier-type
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2016-05-26T20:12:12Z ejbs: Aah, screw it, gonna alter the definition of deftype to write to std-out when it's called
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2016-05-26T20:16:00Z Bike: "how a type is defined" meaning the original deftype form?
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2016-05-26T20:16:29Z ejbs: Bike: Yup, anyway that code was super hairy but I solved it
2016-05-26T20:17:19Z ejbs: (DEFTYPE TRIVIA.LEVEL2.IMPL::PATTERN-TYPE () 'FUNCTION) GOT IT
2016-05-26T20:17:21Z Bike: oh, well, good. i don't know if sbcl even saves the form for a type expansion function.
2016-05-26T20:17:38Z ejbs: Bike: It doesn't, it generates classoid objects and stuff
2016-05-26T20:18:09Z ejbs: but I uninstalled the system, re-defined deftype to save the stuff that gets passed into it into a local variable and recompiled it
2016-05-26T20:18:14Z ejbs: boom, got the typedefs
2016-05-26T20:18:23Z ejbs: what a goddamn hack
2016-05-26T20:18:29Z Bike: uh, glad that worked.
2016-05-26T20:19:02Z ejbs: thanks
2016-05-26T20:19:32Z Bike: in sbcl for a deftype like that with no parameters, DESCRIBE on the symbol would tell you, i th ink.
2016-05-26T20:19:46Z ejbs: I tried that, maybe I screwed up
2016-05-26T20:20:09Z ejbs: Oh shit it did haha, what a waste of time
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2016-05-26T20:25:19Z dreamaddict: I don't quite get why this isn't proper:  (defmacro standard-html-page ((&key symb &optional title) &body body)
2016-05-26T20:25:36Z dreamaddict: it won't compile because of a "misplaced &optional in lambda list"
2016-05-26T20:26:06Z ejbs: dreamaddict: Can't have optional keys, keys are already optional
2016-05-26T20:26:27Z dreamaddict: ok right right, so it is just (&key symb title)...?
2016-05-26T20:26:31Z ejbs: Yup
2016-05-26T20:26:40Z dreamaddict: ohhhh I see it
2016-05-26T20:26:44Z dreamaddict: thank you
2016-05-26T20:27:00Z ejbs: It aint no thang
2016-05-26T20:27:25Z dreamaddict: ever since I found out about Parenscript, I feel a lot better about having to deal with JavaScript
2016-05-26T20:27:37Z dreamaddict: it makes me nauseous, reading about JS libraries
2016-05-26T20:29:08Z ejbs: dreamaddict: Maybe you need glasses?
2016-05-26T20:29:40Z ejbs: Are you sure you are not in fact living on a massive boat and that you simply get motion sickness?
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2016-05-26T20:29:57Z dreamaddict: I'm on a spaceship, actually
2016-05-26T20:30:11Z ejbs: Oh, alright. A lispy one where we don't go off topic I hope!
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2016-05-26T20:31:39Z dreamaddict: yes...the point is, now that I know about Parenscript, I can totally use Lisp for my project instead of having to actually touch JS myself
2016-05-26T20:31:53Z dreamaddict: which is a great reason to learn more about Lisp...again...
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2016-05-26T20:32:31Z ejbs: dreamaddict: It's nice that you enjoy it :)
2016-05-26T20:32:33Z dreamaddict: question: is hunchentoot "outdated" now?  or is it still a solid (but primitive) option that is still good for a lot of things?  or is it just really good...
2016-05-26T20:32:45Z fluxit: pjb: So I've got the reader-macro to convert the unbound-var into a string, but I'm having trouble replacing the #\( reader macro with a new one. Could you (or anyone else) give me a nudge in the right right direction? Code is here: http://pastebin.com/raw/MpGgnqcD
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2016-05-26T20:33:04Z ejbs: dreamaddict: Use Clack!
2016-05-26T20:33:16Z dreamaddict: clack...?
2016-05-26T20:33:59Z Fare: Hi. I'm looking for a public to rehearse my new talk on Computing vs Computers, via Google Hangouts
2016-05-26T20:34:10Z ejbs: http://clacklisp.org/
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2016-05-26T20:36:34Z dreamaddict: so lucerne is built on top of clack...
2016-05-26T20:37:13Z aeth: I've heard about https://github.com/fukamachi/woo
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2016-05-26T20:41:42Z Fare: (contact me fahree@gmail.com for the latest version of my talk on Computing vs Computers)
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2016-05-26T20:43:38Z Xach: fluxit: this is a little like helping someone who is lost in the woods cut down all the trees before him instead of leading him back to a path
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2016-05-26T20:46:03Z Xach: fluxit: is there a larger goal in your project?
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2016-05-26T20:48:45Z fluxit: Nope- I just enjoy cutting trees (:
2016-05-26T20:48:46Z dreamaddict: how is Go significantly faster than Woo? (according to https://github.com/fukamachi/woo)
2016-05-26T20:49:27Z aeth: Because Google has more money than Fukamachi?
2016-05-26T20:49:48Z dreamaddict: is that what it boils down to? ....
2016-05-26T20:50:16Z aeth: No. You need to use the money competently on something that is optimizable.
2016-05-26T20:50:23Z dreamaddict: could Lisp itself perform as well as Go, if money were thrown at it?
2016-05-26T20:50:40Z aeth: As long as you avoid CLOS :-p
2016-05-26T20:50:47Z ejbs: dreamaddict: Lisp can perform as fast as C
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2016-05-26T20:50:52Z shka: dreamaddict: hunchentoot is a good tool, not so good server
2016-05-26T20:51:06Z aeth: You could probably optimize structs more, and a few other things.
2016-05-26T20:51:12Z dreamaddict: well I just found Lisp on the Web and was trying it out...it uses hunchentoot
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2016-05-26T20:51:38Z dreamaddict: and re: speed, I heard that CL-PPCRE was faster than C for awhile, until GCC caught up...?
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2016-05-26T20:51:45Z shka: dreamaddict: i would say that lisp performs really well here
2016-05-26T20:51:53Z prxq: dreamaddict: normally, people put hunchentoot behind a proxy like apache or pound or so. That way they get the best of both worlds.
2016-05-26T20:52:06Z shka: it is a lot faster than node.js
2016-05-26T20:52:12Z dreamaddict: yeah the woo chart showed it as twice as fast as node...I do not need it to be faster so much that I would use Go instead
2016-05-26T20:52:15Z shka: and the distance to go is not dramatic
2016-05-26T20:52:23Z dreamaddict: right right exactly
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2016-05-26T20:52:36Z aeth: notice this: https://github.com/fukamachi/woo/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=defclass https://github.com/fukamachi/woo/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=defmethod&type=Code
2016-05-26T20:52:40Z shka: it's not like woo becomes useless where go still rocks
2016-05-26T20:52:43Z aeth: fast Common Lisp generally avoids CLOS
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2016-05-26T20:52:53Z fluxit: Xach: probably should have pinged you: ^
2016-05-26T20:53:01Z aeth: Apparently this is a thing, though: https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function/
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2016-05-26T20:53:41Z aeth: So you could definitely make higher level Lisp considerably faster. At the moment you do sort of have to write in a different style for things that need to be very fast.
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2016-05-26T20:54:14Z dreamaddict: yes but Lisp *can* bend to that
2016-05-26T20:54:31Z dreamaddict: it is not incapable of being fast
2016-05-26T20:54:52Z shka: it is not like it matters in web dev though
2016-05-26T20:55:00Z shka: note that python is just slow as snail
2016-05-26T20:55:03Z shka: same for ruby
2016-05-26T20:55:06Z Bike: fluxit: it's just a very weird thing to do and might be kind of misleading about how you actually program in lisp
2016-05-26T20:55:09Z shka: does it matter in this cae?
2016-05-26T20:55:12Z shka: not really
2016-05-26T20:55:46Z dreamaddict: true
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2016-05-26T20:56:09Z shka: Fare: this talk will be uploaded somewhere, right?
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2016-05-26T20:56:36Z aeth: What Lisp could use more of is CPU cache friendly data structures. Besides GC (and you could have a real time GC or something), that's where high-performance C/C++ still has an argument afaik.
2016-05-26T20:56:59Z aeth: So e.g. an ugraded fixnum array in CL afaik is very cache-friendly to iterate over.
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2016-05-26T20:57:06Z shka: dreamaddict: web dev is mostly delimited by io, so just pick fast server and write your app
2016-05-26T20:57:33Z prxq: aeth: I've beaten pretty good numerical codes written in C using lisp and clos. The trick is to profile and fix the hot spots
2016-05-26T20:57:33Z shka: aeth: lisp kinda has cache friendly structures
2016-05-26T20:57:39Z dreamaddict: yeup that is what I have
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2016-05-26T20:57:46Z shka: those are called vectors
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2016-05-26T20:58:10Z aeth: shka: Afaik, the cache friendly structures are *just* flat, upgraded vectors, though...
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2016-05-26T20:58:37Z aeth: I'm not sure if any implementation messes with e.g. defstruct. Perhaps SBCL does.
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2016-05-26T20:59:08Z shka: well, it is what it is
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2016-05-26T20:59:30Z shka: there was a talk at els way back about using memory mapped files
2016-05-26T20:59:42Z shka: "Escape from heap" or something like that
2016-05-26T20:59:43Z aeth: I'm just thinking e.g. how do you represent multiple upgraded vectors of various types (e.g. bit, fixnum, single-float) and sizes in a cache friendly way?
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2016-05-26T20:59:58Z shka: aeth: you don't
2016-05-26T21:00:51Z fluxit: Bike: I want to cut trees fast enough that I won't need the path (forgive me, I've been working too long on this; starting to lose it)
2016-05-26T21:00:53Z shka: i dynamic typed language you will have to slap type tag onto it
2016-05-26T21:01:03Z shka: and then ensure that data has constant size
2016-05-26T21:01:09Z shka: (that is: pointer)
2016-05-26T21:01:19Z fluxit: I get it's not normal programming- but I've learned a ton doing it... and I'm dedicated at this point.
2016-05-26T21:01:25Z Bike: fluxit: what... is the metaphor here
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2016-05-26T21:01:35Z shka: but really, there is no point in trying to be faster than C++
2016-05-26T21:01:42Z Bike: because if you start programming by bizarre read macros instead of normal code you're just going to annoy anyone reading
2016-05-26T21:01:42Z fluxit: lol;    <Xach>	fluxit: this is a little like helping someone who is lost in the woods cut down all the trees before him instead of leading him back to a path
2016-05-26T21:01:45Z aeth: oh, sorry, I'm not clear enough, each vector is single-typed, but multiple upgraded vectors belong logically together
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2016-05-26T21:02:18Z Bike: i saw that, you've just extended it to places unknown
2016-05-26T21:02:20Z shka: aeth: hm? so slap type tag on whole vector?
2016-05-26T21:02:38Z shka: iirc that's what everyone is doing right now
2016-05-26T21:02:48Z prxq: shka: you can beat C++ code on features, making the performance issue irrelevant.
2016-05-26T21:02:55Z fluxit: Again... I don't actually intend to write things like this... It's just fun trying to make it work
2016-05-26T21:03:07Z shka: prxq: exactly
2016-05-26T21:03:19Z aeth: Anyway, you don't need to beat C++, you just need to be able to drop fast enough when you need it
2016-05-26T21:03:21Z Bike: well, good luck i guess
2016-05-26T21:03:28Z aeth: s/drop/drop to/
2016-05-26T21:03:50Z fluxit: (Well, being stuck isn't fun... the link again: http://pastebin.com/raw/MpGgnqcD , in case someone can help.. Going for a walk~)
2016-05-26T21:03:54Z shka: i mean, cl is rather pleasant to work with, and it is still a lot faster than other dynamic languages like python
2016-05-26T21:04:14Z shka: in fact it is fast enough for almost anything
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2016-05-26T21:04:42Z Bike: fluxit: what problem are you having exactly
2016-05-26T21:04:51Z aeth: shka: almost anything
2016-05-26T21:04:58Z Bike: fluxit: also, you should use read-delimited-list rather than sb-impl whatever
2016-05-26T21:05:06Z aeth: shka: a lot of us over in #lispgames are trying different approaches to pushing it to literally anything
2016-05-26T21:05:16Z shka: and in cases when you really, really, really need to squeze everything of your cpu, just write a bit in C
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2016-05-26T21:05:30Z shka: it should be fine
2016-05-26T21:06:16Z shka: aeth: well, i guess we agree
2016-05-26T21:07:03Z aeth: shka: well, ideally the stuff that absolutely needs to be the fastest is the stuff SDL takes care of.
2016-05-26T21:07:14Z aeth: Although maybe it'd be better to replace SDL2 with a smaller C lib with just the necessary features
2016-05-26T21:07:23Z aeth: (I leave this as an exercise to the reader.)
2016-05-26T21:07:32Z shka: i hope that clasp will help us with cooperating with C++
2016-05-26T21:07:40Z shka: and i will be cool at this point
2016-05-26T21:07:56Z shka: though, sometimes i really wish clos would be faster
2016-05-26T21:08:02Z aeth: afaik, clasp doesn't run CFFI yet so it can't run things like cl-opengl and cl-sdl2 yet
2016-05-26T21:08:19Z shka: yeah, yeah
2016-05-26T21:08:26Z aeth: Personally, I am only targeting sbcl, ccl, ecl, and clasp, though. When clasp can run cl-opengl and cl-sdl2.
2016-05-26T21:08:36Z shka: right
2016-05-26T21:08:47Z shka: anyway, good night folks
2016-05-26T21:08:55Z aeth: Well, I have to compile ccl at some point because Fedora doesn't have it. I have tested my game engine in ecl a bit, though.
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2016-05-26T21:09:42Z aeth: I don't think anyone running a CL game engine wouldn't be using one of the four that I just listed, though. At least in 2016.
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2016-05-26T21:12:45Z aeth: It'll be interesting benchmarking the different Lisps when I get far enough.
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2016-05-26T21:30:22Z dreamaddict: I am playing with the Clack examples...when I try to change my app in a file and recompile it, I get "Condition USOCKET:ADDRESS-IN-USE-ERROR was signalled."
2016-05-26T21:30:58Z dreamaddict: obviously I want clackup to "reboot" the server with a new app function, but I am not sure how to do that
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2016-05-26T21:44:24Z PuercoPop: dreamaddict: you have to save the value returned by clackup and call stop-server (or something) on it
2016-05-26T21:44:43Z dreamaddict: and if I didn't save that value...?  what then?
2016-05-26T21:44:54Z dreamaddict: you know, just dicking around with web servers
2016-05-26T21:45:27Z Bike: save it in the course of your dicking? just something like (setf *server* (whatever))
2016-05-26T21:45:46Z dreamaddict: right...from now on.
2016-05-26T21:45:53Z dreamaddict: how do I catch my wild server, who has no name?
2016-05-26T21:46:18Z PuercoPop: dreamaddict: are you running from SLIME?
2016-05-26T21:46:23Z dreamaddict: yes
2016-05-26T21:46:43Z PuercoPop: you have the value in the REPL, as presentation
2016-05-26T21:46:48Z dreamaddict: yes
2016-05-26T21:47:40Z PuercoPop: just scroll to when you called clackup and right click the value returned (should be red) and click something like copy to kill ring and then use that as the argument to (clack:stop
2016-05-26T21:48:03Z dreamaddict: found it
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2016-05-26T21:48:16Z dreamaddict: man I love SLIME
2016-05-26T21:48:44Z PuercoPop: yeah, presentations are cool
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2016-05-26T21:48:57Z dreamaddict: what exactly are presentations?
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2016-05-26T21:49:33Z PuercoPop: basically they use emacs text properties as metadata and keep a reference to the object
2016-05-26T21:49:49Z PuercoPop: so you can copy and paste the 'object' between buffers
2016-05-26T21:49:53Z PuercoPop: iirc
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2016-05-26T22:57:38Z pjb: fluxit: to process the concatenated stream, you can call the original reader macro. (funcall *orig-paren-reader*  (make-concatenated-stream s stream) #\( nil))
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2016-05-26T22:58:09Z pjb: with: (defparameter *orig-paren-reader* (let ((rt (copy-readtable nil)))  (get-macro-character #\( rt))))
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2016-05-26T23:54:48Z JuanDaugherty: join #haskell-blah,#haskell-offtopic,#haskell-llvm,#haskell-distributed,#ledger,#taskwarrior
2016-05-26T23:54:56Z JuanDaugherty: sorry
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