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2016-03-01T17:17:21Z DeadTrickster: s/can/can't 2016-03-01T17:17:22Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-03-01T17:17:58Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:18:07Z DeadTrickster: or maybe just use macroses... 2016-03-01T17:20:03Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:20:44Z phoe_krk is making a survey all around his university on how Lisp (as a language family) is generally perceived 2016-03-01T17:22:48Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:22:54Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:22:56Z beach joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:23:03Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2016-03-01T17:23:07Z Shinmera: Hello beach. 2016-03-01T17:23:08Z warweasle: beach: Helo 2016-03-01T17:23:35Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-03-01T17:24:17Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:25:13Z oleo: hello all 2016-03-01T17:25:24Z beach: Hello oleo. 2016-03-01T17:25:46Z oleo: heya beach :) 2016-03-01T17:25:51Z oleo: how goes man ? 2016-03-01T17:26:33Z beach: This afternoon, I finally made yet another attempt to understand the XRender protocol specification, and to map what I see there to what is provided by CLX. 2016-03-01T17:26:51Z beach: I am not quite done yet, but I think this time I'll make it. 2016-03-01T17:27:15Z jasom: great news, beach, I can switch my code over from the 2% of XRender I implemented hackishly :) 2016-03-01T17:27:46Z beach: jasom: What do you mean by you "implemented" it? 2016-03-01T17:27:49Z jasom: though it seems like nobody uses XRender these days, as they need OpenGL for all the fancy UI features 2016-03-01T17:28:04Z beach: Yes, I tend to agree. 2016-03-01T17:28:14Z vaitel joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:29:31Z TMM joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:29:50Z beach: ... and when moore33 shows me what he has done, I might do that instead, or in addition, depending on how the documentation looks. 2016-03-01T17:29:55Z jasom: nevermind, it was composite that I implemented 2% of 2016-03-01T17:29:59Z phoe_krk: hey beach 2016-03-01T17:30:11Z jasom: clx already had render-create-picture and render-fill-rectangle it looks like 2016-03-01T17:30:12Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-03-01T17:30:50Z moore33: Thought I saw my name pop up :) 2016-03-01T17:31:12Z jasom: beach: here's what I did, fwiw: http://paste.lisp.org/display/308640 2016-03-01T17:31:13Z beach: moore33: You did. 2016-03-01T17:31:42Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-03-01T17:32:01Z moore33: beach: The fact that I can now hack on the bus means more progress. However, I didn't get as much done during the vacation as I had hoped. 2016-03-01T17:32:07Z vaitel quit (Client Quit) 2016-03-01T17:32:50Z beach: moore33: Well, whenever you are ready for a demo, I am ready to view it. 2016-03-01T17:33:20Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-03-01T17:33:23Z moore33: beach: I do want to get textures working before we have a look. 2016-03-01T17:33:47Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-03-01T17:33:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:34:07Z beach: moore33: I still don't know OpenGL, so I don't know what textures are. The OpenGL terminology seems strange to me. 2016-03-01T17:34:18Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-03-01T17:34:20Z moore33: beach: pixmaps 2016-03-01T17:34:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:34:28Z beach: See what I mean? 2016-03-01T17:34:40Z vaitel joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:34:48Z moore33: beach: Hey, you seem to know everything else in computer science... 2016-03-01T17:34:51Z jasom: beach: a raster image that can be put on a polygon 2016-03-01T17:35:08Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:35:11Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:35:23Z moore33: Computer graphics is as worthy as obscure parsing algorithms ;) 2016-03-01T17:36:26Z jasom: beach: OpenGL then applies a bunch of transformations to it (the most basic being the projection of the polygon, but also shading, and shading can now run arbitrary programs which can run either in the virtual world coordinates, or on screen coordinates) 2016-03-01T17:36:28Z beach: I mean, a "shader" does not seem to be something that shades. 2016-03-01T17:36:42Z moore33: Hah! 2016-03-01T17:37:30Z jasom: beach: originally shaders were fixed-function units that could do maybe 3 different shading algorithms. Now they are programable and can do basically anything, but since they are at the same point in the pipeline they are still called shaders 2016-03-01T17:37:32Z Bicyclidine: yeah, that one used to confuse me too. 2016-03-01T17:37:46Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:38:05Z Bicyclidine: it's an expansion. maybe sort of like using "consing" to refer to memory allocation? :p 2016-03-01T17:38:07Z moore33: "shading" is an allusion to calculating the light intensity falling on a surface. 2016-03-01T17:38:24Z moore33: And the reflection therefrom. 2016-03-01T17:38:24Z beach: moore33: Ah, that's helpful. 2016-03-01T17:38:53Z warweasle: beach: Most of the terminology comes from OpenGL hating you. 2016-03-01T17:39:03Z moore33: Since this was all created with 3D scenes in mind. 2016-03-01T17:39:11Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:40:25Z jasom: also it's to make things look like they aren't made up of a small number of polygons by interpolating the light intensity (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouraud_shading and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phong_shading) 2016-03-01T17:41:39Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-03-01T17:42:11Z jasom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shader is actually a non-terrible intro too 2016-03-01T17:42:51Z warweasle: beach: Shadertoy.com will give you an idea of what you can do with ONLY 2 TRIANGLES. 2016-03-01T17:43:25Z beach: Thanks everyone. 2016-03-01T17:43:32Z jasom: in particular it's somewhat odd that a shader can now not only change colors, but z-ordering too 2016-03-01T17:43:40Z moore33: Someday spell checkers will recognize that "shader" is a word. 2016-03-01T17:44:05Z beach: It took me something like 10 years (not full time obviously, but trying from time to time) to get an OpenGL demo working on my computer. 2016-03-01T17:44:19Z moore33: beach: But you did run one the other day :) 2016-03-01T17:44:25Z beach: I did. 2016-03-01T17:44:28Z moore33: Written in Lisp too. 2016-03-01T17:44:30Z jasom: sadly my linear algebra is far to rusty for me to do any graphics work 2016-03-01T17:44:54Z Bicyclidine: opengl's design is all kinds of confusing. the first ed manual laid it out as a giant, really giant, state machine, everything's side effects, and then it just got worse from there 2016-03-01T17:45:01Z warweasle: I just got mesh imports working in clinch! 2016-03-01T17:45:11Z jasom: I also encountered this when reading a text book on nonlinear optics; every time there was a matrix operation I had to work it out on paper, which makes for slow reading 2016-03-01T17:45:50Z warweasle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sddv3d-w5p4 2016-03-01T17:46:04Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: I'm guessing that was mostly with hardware/driver vendors in mind or something. 2016-03-01T17:46:40Z moore33: Shinmera: Hardware from 25 years ago. 2016-03-01T17:47:25Z Bicyclidine: Shinmera: not from what i remember, actually. this was the spec for everyone, and it's described as an abstraction over hardware, of course. 2016-03-01T17:47:28Z beach: OK, very interesting stuff, but I need to go fix dinner for my (admittedly small) family. Thanks to everyone for the encouragement. 2016-03-01T17:47:30Z Guest59525 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-03-01T17:47:32Z beach left #lisp 2016-03-01T17:47:36Z asdfa joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:47:43Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: Oof. 2016-03-01T17:47:48Z asdfa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-03-01T17:48:00Z jasom: okay, I don't think he added the "admittedly small" until I told him I had 4 kids 2016-03-01T17:48:07Z Bicyclidine: haha. 2016-03-01T17:49:01Z porky11 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-03-01T17:49:33Z Bicyclidine: one time i mentioned to someone who works on shader compilers that opengl seemed like it was trying to have as much internal state as possible, and she was like, yep, now you get my nightmare 2016-03-01T17:51:18Z phoe_krk: internal state? 2016-03-01T17:51:32Z Bicyclidine: jah. have you ever used it? 2016-03-01T17:51:54Z phoe_krk: not yet, but I'm reading up now. 2016-03-01T17:52:29Z Bicyclidine: you never really call something with arguments, you make half a dozen calls to set up your arguments in the state somewhere, and then another call that actually does the whatever it is. 2016-03-01T17:52:33Z phoe_krk: basically you do things to mutate some sort of OpenGL instance, right? 2016-03-01T17:52:36Z phoe_krk: oh hell. 2016-03-01T17:52:40Z phoe_krk: isn't that, like. 2016-03-01T17:52:44Z phoe_krk: macroable? 2016-03-01T17:53:03Z phoe_krk: wrappable in functions? 2016-03-01T17:53:13Z Bicyclidine: somewhat. 2016-03-01T17:53:43Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: then it's not *as* horrific as it could be. 2016-03-01T17:54:09Z phoe_krk: though I imagine debugging this is as pleasant as browsing raw pages of your GPU memory. 2016-03-01T17:54:33Z moore33: phoe_krk: There are good tools for that now... 2016-03-01T17:54:44Z Bicyclidine: well, it's not just the difficulty of using it that's bad. it has some poor consequences, such as that using opengl from multiple threads is not a good thing to do. 2016-03-01T17:55:03Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: ouch, they're going to interfere unless you make huge critical sections. 2016-03-01T17:55:08Z paul0 joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:55:12Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-03-01T17:55:18Z phoe_krk: moore33: I assume there are, OpenGL is too widely used for such tools to not have popped into existence. 2016-03-01T17:56:13Z moore33: Also, no hardware-based system does "multithreaded" (at the API level) rendering that I know of; correct me if I'm wrong. 2016-03-01T17:56:24Z moore33 is an OpenGL apologist... 2016-03-01T17:56:56Z Bicyclidine: i think you're right, but i can imagine situations in which having different CPU threads sending things to the single queue would be nice. 2016-03-01T17:57:31Z Bicyclidine: but yeah, opengl has helper libraries, some of which are now old enough to be obsolete themselves. pretty good. 2016-03-01T17:57:33Z moore33: Bicyclidine: Yes, hence the interest in Vulkan and DirectX 12. 2016-03-01T17:57:35Z Shinmera: It would be nice, but it isn't allowed 2016-03-01T17:57:45Z Shinmera: Most things will just immediately segfault if you try to do it 2016-03-01T17:58:25Z moore33: later 2016-03-01T17:58:29Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-03-01T17:59:05Z attila_lendvai: does anyone know about any code out there that could help in writing an odt->epub converter in CL? (openoffice wirter document) e.g. a lib to open and parse ODT documents? 2016-03-01T18:00:08Z william3 joined #lisp 2016-03-01T18:00:29Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-03-01T18:00:48Z Bicyclidine: it's xml, right? 2016-03-01T18:01:11Z attila_lendvai: the base format is zipped xml 2016-03-01T18:02:04Z Bicyclidine: looks like a pretty massive standard to implement, though 2016-03-01T18:02:36Z nate_c joined #lisp 2016-03-01T18:03:03Z attila_lendvai: I don't want a full standard, just covering the sane parts, and having a flexible codebase that fails reasonably on unsupported stuff, and is easy to extend if someone needs support for something new 2016-03-01T18:05:09Z william3 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-03-01T18:07:41Z asdfa joined #lisp 2016-03-01T18:07:50Z asdfa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-03-01T18:19:11Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-03-01T18:20:32Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-03-01T18:25:57Z 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I turned the outer key values to assocs and I suddenly got an alist of disembodied property lists :D 2016-03-01T20:21:20Z Bicyclidine: it's not, like, apocalyptic or anything, but a plist of plists is getting a bit wack. 2016-03-01T20:24:47Z kenanb: Bicyclidine: it was for a bunch of data that is generated several times a seconds and thrown away, I didn't want to put them in a class structure for that reason. but I guess making them lists is just as inefficient in this case, maybe I should use structs for it? 2016-03-01T20:25:22Z kenanb: because nothing fancy about them, a plist of data structures each holding like 4 specific values 2016-03-01T20:25:42Z kenanb: or should I use vectors for the inner data structures 2016-03-01T20:25:46Z Bicyclidine: is it actually a bottleneck? 2016-03-01T20:27:41Z asdfa joined #lisp 2016-03-01T20:27:48Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-03-01T20:27:52Z asdfa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-03-01T20:28:12Z kenanb: I was expecting it to be so but so far the generation isn't even recognizable so I didn't even profile. I was thinking of changing the representation of inner structure not because it was a performance bottleneck, but because it is, as you said, getting a little wacky 2016-03-01T20:28:51Z Bicyclidine: http://oglaf.com/trapmaster/ 2016-03-01T20:29:08Z Bicyclidine: structs are nice, but if you don't look at the data yourself much and your accessors work, nested plists might not even suck 2016-03-01T20:29:27Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-03-01T20:31:34Z phoe_krk: that's why I prefer nested alists - but that's just personal taste 2016-03-01T20:31:45Z phoe_krk: they look better and actually form treelike structures for me 2016-03-01T20:32:35Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2016-03-01T20:34:15Z dlowe: I think when it gets that complicated, you had better modularize it and provide an API so you can change implementation details as needed. 2016-03-01T20:34:52Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-03-01T20:35:20Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-03-01T20:35:50Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2016-03-01T20:35:57Z kenanb: I normally do that but it wasn't that complicated so far. Though 2-3 levels of cars and cdrs don't shout their intention 6 months later when you first check back 2016-03-01T20:37:03Z kenanb: and as I said, the data is so constantly generated and thrown away, I started to feel like using lists in this case started to become wrong for multiple reasons 2016-03-01T20:37:41Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-03-01T20:37:55Z kenanb: though I don't know if vectors or structs are more suitable for such cases 2016-03-01T20:38:03Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-03-01T20:38:27Z kenanb: anyway, thank you folks 2016-03-01T20:38:59Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-03-01T20:39:09Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-03-01T20:40:44Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-03-01T20:41:38Z sz0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-03-01T20:42:14Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-03-01T20:44:59Z lisse joined #lisp 2016-03-01T20:45:41Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-03-01T20:47:03Z clog joined #lisp 2016-03-01T20:47:41Z asdfa joined #lisp 2016-03-01T20:47:52Z asdfa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-03-01T20:48:19Z dlowe: well, if the different slots of the vectors have different meanings, you should probably use a struct 2016-03-01T20:48:33Z dlowe: though you can define a struct with a vector backing and have both if you really want 2016-03-01T20:48:46Z raoulvdberge joined #lisp 2016-03-01T20:49:35Z kenanb: dlowe: yes, I actually do that somewhere else in the code for other specific reasons. :) Pretty slick trick. 2016-03-01T20:52:48Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-03-01T20:53:01Z kenanb: is there a way to declare "the type of this is a type" :D 2016-03-01T20:53:34Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-03-01T20:53:54Z kenanb: to declare something to be a type-specifier I mean 2016-03-01T20:54:29Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-03-01T20:54:39Z dlowe: a type specifier is just a list or symbol, I think 2016-03-01T20:54:41Z Shinmera: Types are not first class objects, no. 2016-03-01T20:54:55Z kenanb: "Type specifiers can be symbols, classes, or lists." they can also be classes 2016-03-01T20:54:58Z kenanb: ok 2016-03-01T20:55:03Z kenanb: I can work with that 2016-03-01T20:55:09Z dlowe: you could probably use a satisfies classifier with a predicate 2016-03-01T20:56:39Z kenanb: (or symbol list class) would be mostly enough of I guess? 2016-03-01T20:57:51Z Bicyclidine: unfortunately, the type system isn't really flexible enough that you can tell it what a plist is in a way the system can actually use. 2016-03-01T20:58:44Z kenanb: I mean I don't actually want to check if it really is a type. I am trying to declare things as much as I can as a habit, and I wondered if such type specifier exists when I just created a slot that will hold a type specifier 2016-03-01T20:59:21Z grublet2 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-03-01T20:59:25Z Bicyclidine: i've seen (or symbol list class) forthat sometimes. 2016-03-01T21:00:14Z Bicyclidine: er, cons, not list, i guess. sbcl has typep taking an (or symbol cons sb-kernel:instance) where the last includes classes. 2016-03-01T21:01:44Z kenanb: Bicyclidine: AFAIK it is also too hard/inefficient to be specific about lists in general since list itself is extremely flexible 2016-03-01T21:01:49Z kenanb: why cons instead of list? 2016-03-01T21:02:17Z Bicyclidine: it actually doesn't matter. i got it in my head that NIL (the only non-cons list) is not a type specificer, but it is, and part of symbol. 2016-03-01T21:02:42Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-03-01T21:05:53Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-03-01T21:06:30Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-03-01T21:07:41Z asdfa joined #lisp 2016-03-01T21:07:52Z asdfa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-03-01T21:08:24Z kenanb: thank you 2016-03-01T21:08:46Z ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 2016-03-01T21:10:36Z cgore joined #lisp 2016-03-01T21:10:54Z dlowe: types are one area of CL that I just find really unsatisfying 2016-03-01T21:11:25Z dlowe: I think the designers went up into the "sufficiently smart compiler" stratosphere and never came back down. 2016-03-01T21:11:48Z Shinmera: Were there any languages that explored typing seriously back then? 2016-03-01T21:12:04Z Shinmera: Haskell came mid nineties, if I remember correctly 2016-03-01T21:12:21Z H4ns: ml is much older, iirc 2016-03-01T21:12:33Z dlowe: ML is the first instance of parameterized types I know of 2016-03-01T21:13:04Z Bicyclidine: they're based on pretty different ideas. i mean they're both called "types" but the mathematical antecedents are opposite sides of the universe. 2016-03-01T21:13:05Z dlowe: CL has sorta-kinda parameterized types but doesn't really exercise them in a useful way 2016-03-01T21:13:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-03-01T21:14:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-03-01T21:14:33Z dlowe: I have solved this by completely ignoring types except when I need them for some optimization thing 2016-03-01T21:14:37Z dlowe: But that's kind of a shame. 2016-03-01T21:17:28Z varjagg joined #lisp 2016-03-01T21:18:59Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-03-01T21:19:36Z kenanb: I just sit down and declare them (plus documentation) for my class slots etc whenever I feel like I cannot write actual code. 2016-03-01T21:20:07Z Shinmera: I usually like to not constrain things unnecessarily 2016-03-01T21:21:39Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Multiple-value-bind variables don't seem to appear in the frame 2016-03-01T23:14:54Z hydan joined #lisp 2016-03-01T23:15:12Z erjag quit (Client Quit) 2016-03-01T23:18:52Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-03-01T23:21:27Z pillton: Have you recompiled with (declare (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3))) ? 2016-03-01T23:22:55Z cgore quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-03-01T23:23:08Z cgore joined #lisp 2016-03-01T23:23:23Z cgore left #lisp 2016-03-01T23:37:06Z redline6561 joined #lisp 2016-03-01T23:37:17Z sbryant joined #lisp 2016-03-01T23:37:17Z sshirokov joined #lisp 2016-03-01T23:37:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-03-01T23:38:32Z lisse joined #lisp 2016-03-01T23:39:52Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-03-01T23:46:11Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2016-03-01T23:48:44Z zbigniew joined #lisp 2016-03-01T23:51:18Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-03-01T23:52:15Z AJavaIdiot joined #lisp