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2016-02-26T01:06:53Z p_l: trinitr0n: hey, you mentioned fighting with low-level details of things like ESDI disk format, right? Have you looked at SYS:l-sys;nbs-disk.lisp ?
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2016-02-26T02:33:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: redraw
2016-02-26T02:34:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, what's the write way to use a restart like store-value?
2016-02-26T02:35:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Say I have a situation where I ask the user for some input, validate the input with the restart bound and signal some condition.
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2016-02-26T02:36:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm having difficulty figuring out the most idiomatic way to repeat the validation code.
2016-02-26T02:36:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: would it be something like (loop (restart-case ... ))?
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2016-02-26T02:40:03Z Bike: that's reasonable, yeah.
2016-02-26T02:41:46Z Bike: (loop (restart-case (return (validate-or-error value)) (store-value (v) (setf value v)))) I think.
2016-02-26T02:44:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) my first attempt involved a tagbody.
2016-02-26T02:45:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then, as I started asking here I realized that loop does what I want too.
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2016-02-26T02:52:27Z fewdea: let's pretend I like to make bad design choices. as an exercise, I want to create a generic object store in my db. one of my columns is 'attrib_type' which references common lisp data types such as integer, string, vector, etc. how would I go about pulling an attribute/value pair from the database and casting it as the correct type?
2016-02-26T02:53:28Z fewdea: (cast var value "type_str") as an example
2016-02-26T02:54:49Z fewdea: i see there is a coerce function, but it accepts, eg 'string as an argument. I want to provide "string" as the arg instead
2016-02-26T02:54:50Z Bike: Well, how are your values stored?
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2016-02-26T02:55:27Z fewdea: it seems everything will have to be stored as a string/text type in the db
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2016-02-26T02:56:14Z fewdea: so the attrib_name, attrib_type, and attrib_value would all be strings. but when building the clos object, I'd want them cast properly as defined by the attrib_type value
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2016-02-26T02:57:02Z Bike: okay, but i mean what kind of strings. what is the function from lisp objects to strings? and then the "cast" is gonna be just reversing that.
2016-02-26T02:58:14Z Bike: if you were using the lisp printer, for instance, the "cast" function would just be the reader, and it probably wouldn't need the type.
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2016-02-26T03:00:12Z fewdea: that seems reasonable, but I'm not sure I follow. what if I wanted to add two of my object slots together. they would have to be integers, yeah?
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2016-02-26T03:01:07Z Bike: you don't add slots, you add the integers they deserialize into.
2016-02-26T03:02:25Z fewdea: :/ i don't see what you mean
2016-02-26T03:03:34Z Bike: you have lisp objects in a lisp image. you want to put them in some kind of external database, so you "serialize", which means you make a slot in the database that corresponds to the lisp object. then later, you want an object again, so you "deserialize" and make a new object that corresponds to the slot in the db.
2016-02-26T03:04:23Z Bike: the database is a database and lisp is lisp. you can't add database entries together because that's not something you can do with database entries. but you can add the corresponding objects together, and maybe make a database entry for the sum if you like.
2016-02-26T03:04:27Z Bike: or am i totally misunderstanding.
2016-02-26T03:04:29Z fewdea: oh i get it. that makes sense, but I want more than just a data store, I wasn't clear about that. I would still like to be able to interact with the data, and thus not store in in an unreadable form
2016-02-26T03:05:11Z fewdea: select * from things where attrib_name = weight and attrib_value = "3"; sort of thing
2016-02-26T03:05:45Z fewdea: and then when I load the object, the attrib_value would be added to the slot as an integer and not a string as it's stored in the db
2016-02-26T03:06:24Z Bike: the slot of the lisp object?
2016-02-26T03:07:11Z fewdea: yeah. for instance, my db row looks like: name is "weight", value is "3", type is "integer", but all the column types are text
2016-02-26T03:07:34Z fewdea: and then when I retrieve the row into a clos object, slot name 'weight' is an integer
2016-02-26T03:07:58Z Bike: i don't see what about that is incompatible with what i said.
2016-02-26T03:08:17Z Bike: the deserializer sees the string "3" and makes a lisp integer.
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2016-02-26T03:08:43Z fewdea: is that a built in thing? i'm fairly new to lisp and don't know about the deserializer
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2016-02-26T03:08:59Z Bike: it's just an arbitrary relation, but you can use the one in lisp.
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2016-02-26T03:09:17Z Bike: you write code as text but it ends up as lisp objects. the thing that turns text into objects the evaluator works on is called the 'reader'.
2016-02-26T03:09:23Z Bike: for instance, try (read-from-string "3")
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2016-02-26T03:10:56Z fewdea: i'm sort of dumbfounded right now. how does it know it's an integer?
2016-02-26T03:11:20Z Bike: how do you know it's an integer? it's a three. what else would it be?
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2016-02-26T03:12:25Z fewdea: that's pretty nifty. (read-from-string "foo") returns a type-of symbol
2016-02-26T03:12:53Z fewdea: is that the standard way of turning strings into symbols?
2016-02-26T03:13:32Z Bike: it's the standard way of parsing lisp code
2016-02-26T03:14:07Z Bike: which includes symbols, but other things too. if you want to just do symbols you can use find-symbol and intern to make a symbol with such and such a name.
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2016-02-26T03:15:22Z fewdea: i was just reading about that before I asked in here. this is really interesting stuff and seems like it would make lisp incredibly extensible
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2016-02-26T03:15:44Z Bike: this is the same reader used for code. when you write "(defun add (x y) (+ x y))" in a text file, the lisp reader has to go through and make a list, with elements DEFUN, ADD, another list, another list, etc etc
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2016-02-26T03:16:10Z Bike: other programming languages do the same thing, of course, but lisp is nice enough to let you parse things yourself, since the code format is also a data format
2016-02-26T03:16:30Z Bike: let you parse things yourself -> "use the same parser as a function" might be a better phrasing
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2016-02-26T03:18:30Z fewdea: i feel like this is cheating, like using 'eval' or something haha
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2016-02-26T03:19:11Z kenanb: does ASDF [by default or with ":serial t"] guarantee that systems my system :DEPENDS-ON are going to be COMPILED and LOADED before my systems is started being compiled?
2016-02-26T03:19:40Z Bike: it's a bit like eval in that sometimes it's too extensible, which is why there are other functions like parse-integer and find-symbol to do more restrictted things
2016-02-26T03:19:45Z kenanb: if not, is there any way to make this 100% guaranteed in an idiomatic way
2016-02-26T03:19:49Z Bike: kenanb: by default yeah
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2016-02-26T03:22:57Z kenanb: Bike: I have a heisenbug kind of behaviour from ECL where it most of the times fails compiling my lib if I just ql:quickload, then it compiles allright if I use the verbose option to it, I checked and didn't see anything in verbose option to cause such thing, then I started suspecting asdf but to no success to locate the bug, because now it works :D
2016-02-26T03:22:58Z kenanb: dammit
2016-02-26T03:25:15Z kenanb: it errors saying "NIL is not a valid specializer.", because the reader of my slot is being defined as a method that specialize on NIL for some reason
2016-02-26T03:25:15Z Bike: i cannot imagine verbose causing that. how does it fail?
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2016-02-26T03:26:17Z Bike: no, i think that error means something else, though i still don't know how it would be nonrepeatable
2016-02-26T03:26:45Z Bike: well, is it the same error you get if you have (defmethod foo ((bar nil)) ...)?
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2016-02-26T03:27:16Z kenanb: I am actually pretty sure it is the reader causing that, because it goes away when I remove the reader keyword.
2016-02-26T03:27:59Z kenanb: no, the message is signalled by this: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/a26fdf69f23e6715258f050c04a7b724d9d071b8/src/clos/method.lsp#L408
2016-02-26T03:28:47Z Bike: so it actually says "NIL is not a valid specializer name", just to be exacting?
2016-02-26T03:28:49Z kenanb: the one that signals a similar message when you do that is this function: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/a26fdf69f23e6715258f050c04a7b724d9d071b8/src/clos/method.lsp#L299
2016-02-26T03:29:04Z kenanb: Bike: yep, exactly that message
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2016-02-26T03:30:33Z Bike: are you doing any mop business?
2016-02-26T03:30:43Z kenanb: Bike: too much of it
2016-02-26T03:33:08Z Bike: hard to figure anything without seeing what you're doing then, i'm afraid
2016-02-26T03:33:51Z kenanb: Bike: it is related to the mop business I am doing, that is for sure, but from what I can tell what I am doing is pretty legit, and works everywhere else, for everything else, and everything I do actually works if I evaluate the last bits of actually defining classes using the metaclass I defined
2016-02-26T03:34:18Z kenanb: I suspected it is related to finalizing inheritance, but it doesn't seem to be
2016-02-26T03:34:22Z kenanb: really weird
2016-02-26T03:34:51Z kenanb: and the thing is, the moment I try loading contextl first, then loading my system, the errors went away
2016-02-26T03:34:57Z kenanb: so so weird
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2016-02-26T03:37:06Z kenanb: Bike: the mop related code is pretty long and there is not yet a proper api to test stuff, I don't want anyone to hate me right now
2016-02-26T03:37:30Z Bike: usually i hate people more for, like, major financial fraud or something
2016-02-26T03:38:02Z kenanb: Bike: haha
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2016-02-26T03:40:02Z kenanb: still, I would really appreciate if you took a look after I bring it to a testable state, also currently the problem stopped occurring, so I started suspecting it was because of something that was cached, even though I always test after clear-system and ecl restarts
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2016-02-26T03:41:12Z Bike: k.
2016-02-26T03:41:21Z loke: Hello Bike
2016-02-26T03:41:27Z Bike: helloke
2016-02-26T03:41:44Z kenanb: I wasn't even expecting mop stuff to be this much reliable. So far this is more or less the only problem I got that isn't potentially caused by me.
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2016-02-26T03:42:06Z loke: You are golden! http://cdn.coresites.factorymedia.com/mpora_new/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/max_1_430000.jpg
2016-02-26T03:42:26Z loke: https://mpora.com/mountainbiking/7-insanely-expensive-mountain-bike-parts#5AUUYJzOu8RVSbUY.97
2016-02-26T03:42:29Z Bike: well, it's how normal clos works, so if mop's busted close is busted
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2016-02-26T03:42:47Z Bike: i hope that bike isn't actually made of gold
2016-02-26T03:42:55Z loke: It is actually made of gold
2016-02-26T03:42:55Z Bike: nope. good.
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2016-02-26T03:43:10Z loke: All right, not completely:
2016-02-26T03:43:12Z Bike: article seems like it's plated, so it's just dumb instead of useless
2016-02-26T03:43:18Z loke: "overlaid with pure gold, embellished with diamonds and sapphires and topped off with an alligator skin saddle"
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2016-02-26T03:46:25Z loke: The article is funny though. The title is "insanely expensive". Looking at the parts, they're not _that_ expensive. The wheels are only twice as expensivce as my wheels
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2016-02-26T04:24:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-26T04:25:30Z kenanb: morning beach!
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2016-02-26T04:33:00Z kenanb: beach: I am creating a metaclass for an application, the slots of instances of this metaclass have an optional :INTERACTIVE keyword, the idea is any slot that are marked as interactive will automatically be shown as editable fields in the gui representation of that class' instances.
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2016-02-26T04:34:03Z beach: kenanb: Hold on a sec, I am slow, so I need some explanation...
2016-02-26T04:34:23Z beach: kenanb: A metaclass is the class of a class, so the instances of the metaclass are classes.
2016-02-26T04:35:15Z theta888: In clisp or emacs lisp, is it possible to have a function with any number of optional params?
2016-02-26T04:35:37Z beach: theta888: CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp.
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2016-02-26T04:35:58Z theta888: yes, I know
2016-02-26T04:35:59Z kenanb: beach: yes, the metaclass lets the class slots to define :interactive keywords.
2016-02-26T04:36:33Z Bike: anyway, yes, that's &rest.
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2016-02-26T04:37:30Z theta888: Thanks Bike
2016-02-26T04:37:40Z kenanb: beach: I want to write clim presentations for those interactive slot descriptions in the future. for example if slot A is stated :INTERACTIVE :NUMBER, slot B is stated :INTERACTIVE :PATHNAME, when a class of this metaclass is defined, a presentation for this class will be automatically generated according to the slot presentation types
2016-02-26T04:38:25Z kenanb: when the instance is printed, only the slots that are marked as interactive will be shown, and they will be editable.
2016-02-26T04:38:41Z beach: kenanb: I think I get the general idea, but not the details of which instances of which class you want to show to the user, but go ahead.
2016-02-26T04:39:01Z beach: or, rather, "go on..."
2016-02-26T04:39:32Z kenanb: beach: now my question is, does this sound like I am writing something that will nicely complement CLIM, or am I working on something that is already available in CLIM
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2016-02-26T04:39:59Z beach: Sounds like the former to me.
2016-02-26T04:41:34Z kenanb: beach: so basically the INTERACTIVE keywords in the class slot description will help a proper CLIM presentation for the class to be defined automatically.
2016-02-26T04:41:51Z kenanb: beach: cool!
2016-02-26T04:42:14Z beach: Yes, I think I am slowly getting it.  It is still very early for me here, and I have not yet had my coffee, but I think I get the essence of it.
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2016-02-26T04:42:39Z kenanb: beach: it has been so long since I last write CLIM code, I don't remember if some of the concepts were actually doing even more than I can remember
2016-02-26T04:42:56Z kenanb: beach: I skimmed CLIM spec again but couldn't be sure
2016-02-26T04:43:42Z beach: The only thing it says about presentation types is that whenever you define a class, you also define a corresponding presentation, just like with Common Lisp itself.
2016-02-26T04:44:08Z beach: Then it has DEFINE-PRESENTATION-TYPE for more complicated cases.
2016-02-26T04:45:37Z beach: You would need some kind of mechanism that automatically defines presentation methods on PRESENT and ACCEPT specialized to instances of your new metaclass.
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2016-02-26T04:45:50Z beach: I don't know how to do that, but it ought to be possible.
2016-02-26T04:46:25Z beach: ... like using an :AFTER method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE specialized to your metaclass.
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2016-02-26T04:48:22Z beach: theta888: The phrase "any number of optional parameters" is a bit ambiguous.
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2016-02-26T04:48:48Z beach: theta888: As in, is each one of those optional parameters still individually named?
2016-02-26T04:49:19Z beach: theta888: Or do you mean that you have a single parameter name for any number of ARGUMENTS that you can then pass to your function?
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2016-02-26T04:50:03Z kenanb: beach: that was more or less what I was thinking of. Hopefully, this method will let me automatically create very nice presentations for CLIM listener interface of the application, and at the same time provide the same visual clues for other interfaces.
2016-02-26T04:50:09Z beach: theta888: Or to put it differently: Do you know the number of optional parameters by the time you define your function?
2016-02-26T04:50:46Z beach: kenanb: Yes, it sounds like it is worth trying.  If it doesn't work for some reason, we will know why.
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2016-02-26T04:55:20Z kenanb: beach: what is currently the most usable backend to pick for mcclim?
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2016-02-26T04:56:12Z beach: kenanb: I believe only the CLX backend really works.
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2016-02-26T04:58:50Z kenanb: beach: I see. Thank you very much, as always.
2016-02-26T04:59:01Z beach: Pleasure.
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2016-02-26T06:11:21Z beach: Only two days left to submit to ELS.  I encourage people to do it.
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2016-02-26T06:46:24Z jackdaniel: it's fun to read lisp notes written by developers at the day of my birth ^_^
2016-02-26T06:46:35Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2016-02-26T07:02:15Z loke: jackdaniel: Around 2005? :-)
2016-02-26T07:02:25Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, morning, how old are you?
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2016-02-26T07:03:28Z jackdaniel: loke: 1989-05-18 ;
2016-02-26T07:03:31Z jackdaniel: (-;
2016-02-26T07:04:23Z jackdaniel pokes the portable common lisp sources
2016-02-26T07:05:11Z loke: jackc-: Wow. You're a kid! :-)
2016-02-26T07:05:17Z DeadTrickster: lol
2016-02-26T07:05:33Z loke: jackdaniel was born around the year I started using Emacs.
2016-02-26T07:05:38Z jackdaniel: hmph, probably like every kid I have a different stand on that matter (that I'm not a kid!) ;-)
2016-02-26T07:05:46Z DeadTrickster: yeah everyone here seems to be younger than me
2016-02-26T07:05:47Z Shinmera: loke: You don't even want to know how old I am then
2016-02-26T07:06:11Z loke: Shinmera: I think you've told me once. You're like, hmm... 19 or something aren't you?
2016-02-26T07:06:22Z Shinmera: Not that young, no. 22 now.
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2016-02-26T07:06:36Z Shinmera: Or was it 23? I forget.
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2016-02-26T07:06:48Z Bike: just throw a plus or minus one on there
2016-02-26T07:06:48Z Shinmera: 23.
2016-02-26T07:07:11Z Shinmera: No, wait, 22 and 23 this year
2016-02-26T07:07:16Z Shinmera: ANYWAY.
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2016-02-26T07:07:28Z Shinmera: Good morning.
2016-02-26T07:07:43Z Bike: ohayo
2016-02-26T07:08:43Z Shinmera: I remember there being talk about some form of replacement for cliki back before I left for my winter break. I don't suppose anything further came of that?
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2016-02-26T07:26:31Z moore33: Youngsters...
2016-02-26T07:28:30Z jackdaniel: or Oldies, depending on the side you take ^_^
2016-02-26T07:28:49Z Bike: i prefer the term "whippersnapper"
2016-02-26T07:29:16Z moore33: jackdaniel: More like depending in whether you're young or old :)
2016-02-26T07:29:49Z jackdaniel: moore33: I mean: Oldie calls younger person "Youngster", while Youngster calls older person "Oldie"
2016-02-26T07:30:09Z moore33: Well, yes.
2016-02-26T07:30:25Z moore33: But I think I've identified my camp :)
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2016-02-26T07:36:23Z p_l: Shinmera: a replacement for cliki? That would be nice
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2016-02-26T07:59:33Z DeadTrickster: why just don't use mediawiki
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2016-02-26T08:51:17Z jackdaniel: why ASDF writes: "Warning: Lisp compilation failed while compiling …" if compilation yields only some style-warnings? (everything works fine despite that "failed" claim)
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2016-02-26T08:58:58Z jackdaniel: nvm, found it
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2016-02-26T09:27:11Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: I don't know if the wiki format is actually the best way to provide the things that need to be provided.
2016-02-26T09:28:07Z Shinmera: I've had some ideas for a sort of distributed wiki-like-but-not-quite system based on a git repository as backend, but I don't have anything concrete yet.
2016-02-26T09:28:23Z Shinmera: Suffice to say I'm busy with other things right now anyway
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2016-02-26T09:29:51Z pavelpenev: Shinmera: writing a federated wiki is on my bucket list, i'd like to hear more about this idea
2016-02-26T09:30:41Z Shinmera: pavelpenev: The primary idea is to use a repository as the backend, since it would take care of things like rollbacks, history, and "authority" for free.
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2016-02-26T09:32:19Z Shinmera: The upside is that it would allow people to work on it on their own and then just send a PR to make it public
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2016-02-26T09:32:28Z Shinmera: The downside is that it would require sending a PR to make it public
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2016-02-26T09:33:32Z DeadTrickster: PRs can be accepted automatically
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2016-02-26T09:33:54Z DeadTrickster: for example if author already has at least one merged PR
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2016-02-26T09:34:15Z Shinmera: Hmm. That might be a solution, yes.
2016-02-26T09:34:30Z DeadTrickster: even (simple) rule engine can be created
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2016-02-26T09:35:11Z DeadTrickster: with locked parts, and say 'you can automatically merged only your pages'
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2016-02-26T09:35:44Z Shinmera: An alternative approach would be that users can by default only push to a branch of their own name
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2016-02-26T09:36:17Z DeadTrickster: but this has to be merged to say master anyway isn't it?
2016-02-26T09:36:49Z Shinmera: Well the idea is that you can still access other branches through the web interface.
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2016-02-26T09:37:03Z Shinmera: Merging to master would just make it the "default page"
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2016-02-26T09:37:34Z DeadTrickster: sure
2016-02-26T09:38:00Z DeadTrickster: I wonder how many branches github can handle
2016-02-26T09:38:09Z DeadTrickster: lets spam it
2016-02-26T09:38:34Z pareidolia: I thought of http://imgur.com/BIB5lP3 this morning. Probably going to receive letters from lawyers :-S
2016-02-26T09:39:24Z DeadTrickster: the way I misread your nickname is frightening
2016-02-26T09:41:12Z pareidolia: ?
2016-02-26T09:42:11Z DeadTrickster: argh it will remain hidden in my sick brains
2016-02-26T09:42:32Z DeadTrickster: better tell us what this image for
2016-02-26T09:43:04Z pareidolia: A possible logo/totem
2016-02-26T09:43:33Z pareidolia: http://lisperati.com/logo.html never really did it for me
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2016-02-26T09:46:34Z Shinmera: I much prefer the lisp lizard logo. https://web.archive.org/web/20060209120657/http://www.normal-null.de/lisp_logo.html
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2016-02-26T09:49:45Z pareidolia: I prefer something more stylized
2016-02-26T09:50:11Z Shinmera: It's plenty stylised to me.
2016-02-26T09:50:24Z DeadTrickster: :-)
2016-02-26T09:51:24Z pareidolia: It calls to mind Java's Duke (*ducks*)
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2016-02-26T10:41:01Z pavelpenev: pareidolia: I've often claimed that Common Lisp's main disadvantage wrt clojure is the lack of a nice logo. That's probably why it never took off the same way. I'm serious about this. Pop culture works in weird ways.
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2016-02-26T10:42:06Z Shinmera: I think the lizard is a nice logo, but it's used very sparingly.
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2016-02-26T10:44:27Z ralt: pavelpenev: an alien isn't very good?
2016-02-26T10:45:33Z p_l: pavelpenev: have you encountered Lisp at university?
2016-02-26T10:45:33Z pavelpenev: ralt: I like it, but the appropriate sacrifice to the gods of marketing wasn't made
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2016-02-26T10:45:47Z p_l: because there's a lot of bad press that comes from people's education
2016-02-26T10:46:11Z Shinmera: p_l:  I've actually had two of my profs so far give a brief mention to CL at least.
2016-02-26T10:46:12Z pavelpenev: p_l: I scheme. And yes, I did know more scheme than my instructors :)
2016-02-26T10:46:38Z p_l: I once went through notes that would fit if we were still using MACLISP
2016-02-26T10:46:54Z p_l: or LISP 1.5
2016-02-26T10:47:04Z Shinmera: p_l: A friend of mine apparently had a class that used Scheme for AI or something, but he ended up hating it.
2016-02-26T10:47:15Z Shinmera: A sad tale of sadness.
2016-02-26T10:47:51Z pavelpenev: p_l: we had a presentation like that. After the first lecture they basically told us, the version of LISP we use is a bit different :)
2016-02-26T10:47:56Z p_l: pavelpenev: the biggest draw of clojure is that it's not called a lisp (or scheme). and the perception of library availability
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2016-02-26T10:50:38Z p_l: typical programmer is often very scared about libraries :D
2016-02-26T10:50:41Z pavelpenev: p_l: pretty sure it's a combination of Rich Hickeys presentation abilities and a perception that lisp is antiquated and needs a makeover.  A lot of people got hooked by his initial demo videos around 08/09, including myself :)
2016-02-26T10:51:17Z p_l: pavelpenev: partly that as well, but the "lisp is antiquated", "lisp is slow" etc. are pervasive myths even outside larger lisp community
2016-02-26T10:51:36Z Shinmera: And even inside the community :)
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2016-02-26T10:52:22Z moore33: My preception of Clozure, as someone who has never written a Clozure program, is that there genuinely good ideas there... plus obnoxious differences. It's interesting reading forum postings on e.g. Clozure's wacky syntax; these people did not get "the Lisp way." :)
2016-02-26T10:52:56Z pavelpenev: p_l: watch those demos again, notice how clojure is rationalized. 1) Lisp needs to be a bit more modern, so were getting rid of car/cdr ect. 2) Concurency.
2016-02-26T10:53:28Z p_l: pavelpenev: from pov of first timers, car/cdr etc. are indeed problematic
2016-02-26T10:53:34Z Shinmera: moore33: Clozure is a company that writes CCL.
2016-02-26T10:53:50Z jdz: p_l: can't the first timers use FIRST and REST?
2016-02-26T10:53:52Z moore33: Shinmera: Oh my goodness you are right!
2016-02-26T10:54:01Z moore33: s/Clozure/Clojure
2016-02-26T10:54:09Z p_l: jdz: yes, but they need to be told about them
2016-02-26T10:54:10Z pavelpenev: p_l: this was before quicklisp and other tools and libraries. These days clojure would probably not get made. You'd just write an STM and use FSET
2016-02-26T10:54:21Z p_l: hehe
2016-02-26T10:54:23Z moore33 has in fact written programs using "Clozure."
2016-02-26T10:54:43Z p_l: pavelpenev: I remember dabbling in clojure back in 2008
2016-02-26T10:54:48Z p_l: in defiance of my coursework
2016-02-26T10:55:12Z moore33: pavelpenev: Isn't part of the attraction that people can actually get their IT group to deploy Clojure apps?
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2016-02-26T10:55:53Z pavelpenev: moore33: I don't think there was ABCL back then, another problem with CL that no longer exists :)
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2016-02-26T10:56:07Z p_l: ABCL was there
2016-02-26T10:56:08Z pavelpenev: not to mention docker containers
2016-02-26T10:56:15Z moore33: pavelpenev: No, it existed.
2016-02-26T10:56:40Z pavelpenev: I didn't hear about it until at least 2009, so maybe it was just too early
2016-02-26T10:57:16Z loke got my copy of the Edi book yesterday
2016-02-26T10:57:17Z DeadTrickster: I still don't get why I want docker when I deploy signle sbcl binaries
2016-02-26T10:57:19Z pavelpenev: hm, now that I think about it, yes, maybe I heard about ABCL from clojure discussions about why ABCL doesn't cut it :)
2016-02-26T10:57:57Z loke: It's full of Quicklisp, and in one chapter he basically says that if you don't understand X (whatever it was), go read the relevant chapter in PCL first. I love that.
2016-02-26T10:59:44Z pavelpenev paraphrases badly: CL/Scheme weren't designed for the JVM, so we need a new language. 
2016-02-26T11:00:14Z pavelpenev: ultimately clojure was marketed perfectly and hit all the right buttons
2016-02-26T11:00:24Z Shinmera: loke: on the other hand some of the picks for libraries seem a bit peculiar
2016-02-26T11:00:38Z loke: Shinmera: SUch as? I haven't read it all yet
2016-02-26T11:01:38Z Shinmera: I haven't either, but he mentions Clip at one point which is probably one of my most obscure libraries (it does html templating)
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2016-02-26T11:02:30Z pavelpenev should probably use his non-existing design skills to make a new logo and bring CL to the masses
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2016-02-26T11:03:28Z Shinmera: I've heard others mention on twitter that they're a bit surprised about the differences in what they know and use vs. what's in the book.
2016-02-26T11:04:01Z pareidolia: pavelpenev: My design stems from the endled bickering and arguing about Lisp by outsiders who prefer arguing to experimentation
2016-02-26T11:04:02Z Shinmera: But either way, I should finally carve out some time to read it for good myself.
2016-02-26T11:04:08Z pareidolia: pavelpenev: So I say, just bloody do it
2016-02-26T11:04:32Z DeadTrickster: probably I'm broken but I also don't understand all this hype around Edi. Could some tell me about it?
2016-02-26T11:04:53Z DeadTrickster: I mean I'm much worse but when I look at some of his codes I want to cry
2016-02-26T11:05:07Z Shinmera: He wrote a lot of the basic libs in the ecosystem before QL exploded.
2016-02-26T11:05:18Z jackdaniel: who wrote a few very good libraries with the actual *documentation*
2016-02-26T11:05:23Z jackdaniel: and what Shinmera said
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2016-02-26T11:06:36Z DeadTrickster: personally I would like to read book by someone who say deployed sbcl to production and makes money
2016-02-26T11:06:46Z DeadTrickster: like real world boring stuff
2016-02-26T11:06:55Z DeadTrickster: how to make stable json api with oauth2
2016-02-26T11:07:20Z Shinmera: They're too busy making money. Writing books doesb't really pay and takes a lot of time.
2016-02-26T11:07:20Z ralt: I wrote some of that code, if you're interested
2016-02-26T11:07:25Z ralt: it's not really in production though
2016-02-26T11:07:48Z ralt: writing an oauth2 handler is fairly simple though
2016-02-26T11:07:56Z pavelpenev: DeadTrickster: working on that, might take a while to make money off of it though :)
2016-02-26T11:08:07Z Shinmera: DeadTrickstrr: One of my stalled projects is an oAuth provider. I should get back to that.
2016-02-26T11:08:23Z Shinmera: bloody touch keyboards
2016-02-26T11:08:56Z DeadTrickster: that's the problem, I feel like there a lot of bright minds but we(I) need hipsters
2016-02-26T11:09:15Z pavelpenev: DeadTrickster: I ain't a hipster, but I can play one on the internet http://fullstacklisp.com/
2016-02-26T11:10:17Z DeadTrickster: pavelpenev, I mean looks at #elixir-lang  it came from nowhere and now has lots more usable stuff than CL
2016-02-26T11:10:36Z DeadTrickster: take hex.pm their package manager
2016-02-26T11:10:44Z DeadTrickster: it even has downloads counter )
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2016-02-26T11:11:55Z pavelpenev: DeadTrickster: and a nice logo
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2016-02-26T11:12:21Z DeadTrickster: )
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2016-02-26T11:13:25Z DeadTrickster: a couple of years ago I used CL with .net soap services
2016-02-26T11:13:28Z DeadTrickster: that was fun
2016-02-26T11:13:37Z pavelpenev: DeadTrickster: also appears to have been made by a company. Presumably one that can afford to foster an ecosystem
2016-02-26T11:13:47Z Shinmera: SOAP and fun are contradictory
2016-02-26T11:14:01Z DeadTrickster: well I almost made it
2016-02-26T11:14:14Z DeadTrickster: then I just stole xml binders from zs3
2016-02-26T11:14:21Z DeadTrickster: and it still works
2016-02-26T11:14:38Z pavelpenev: If I start making lots of money I promise to reinvest some of it in the CL ecosystem
2016-02-26T11:14:54Z DeadTrickster: I doubt this helps
2016-02-26T11:15:31Z Shinmera: pavelpenev: Time is more valuable than money, so invest that instead
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2016-02-26T11:17:05Z pavelpenev: Shinmera: One persons time is limited. A big pile of cash can give you access to the time of many people.
2016-02-26T11:17:49Z DeadTrickster: but you have to manage them you have to have vision and others should agree with you
2016-02-26T11:17:57Z Shinmera: Sure, but that'll be a loooooot of money then.
2016-02-26T11:18:18Z DeadTrickster: every one has his own webframework isn't it?
2016-02-26T11:18:34Z Shinmera: Not quite, no.
2016-02-26T11:18:35Z pavelpenev: Shinmera: I said: If I start making lots of money..." :)
2016-02-26T11:18:45Z pavelpenev: DeadTrickster: currently hacking on my own
2016-02-26T11:18:50Z pareidolia: DeadTrickster: cf. Ted Nelson
2016-02-26T11:19:38Z DeadTrickster: wow he still alive
2016-02-26T11:20:07Z pareidolia: How much I would give to meet the man
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2016-02-26T12:04:01Z pareidolia: Does anyone know how to reformat a form (M-q) without wrapping long lines?
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2016-02-26T12:08:58Z dim: C-x f runs the command set-fill-column
2016-02-26T12:13:13Z Xach: DeadTrickster: it varies. depending on the repo config, i can pull from master, a branch, a tag, or find the latest release
2016-02-26T12:13:39Z igam: pareidolia: just set-fill-column to nil or very large.
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2016-02-26T12:16:52Z Xach: DeadTrickster: fyi, ia-hash-table references alexandria symbols but it's not listed in :depends-on
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2016-02-26T12:24:56Z DeadTrickster: Xach, thanks
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2016-02-26T12:29:25Z pareidolia: I'm playing around with 5AM
2016-02-26T12:29:38Z DeadTrickster: and split sequence too, woops
2016-02-26T12:29:45Z pareidolia: Is there a way to import non-exported symbols from the package under test to my test's package?
2016-02-26T12:29:49Z attila_lendvai: pareidolia: I suggest hu.dwim.stefil, or fiasco instead
2016-02-26T12:29:58Z pareidolia: Why?
2016-02-26T12:30:28Z fe[nl]ix: pareidolia: just put the test code in the tested package
2016-02-26T12:30:32Z attila_lendvai: pareidolia: they integrate much better with slime and the normal lisp work-flow. I wrote stefil, fiasco is a fork
2016-02-26T12:31:01Z attila_lendvai: an I used 5am before I got to work on stefil
2016-02-26T12:31:04Z splittist_: pareidolia: (:import-from #:your-package {symbols you want to import}) in your defpackage
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2016-02-26T12:31:37Z pareidolia: splittist_: That would solve my problem irrespective of test framework right?
2016-02-26T12:31:47Z splittist_: Yes.
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2016-02-26T12:32:54Z pareidolia: Great :) I'm going to screencast my forays in to CL testing to my friends (skeptics, lol)
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2016-02-26T12:34:23Z splittist: There's nothing like that first RUN! uncovering the off-by-one error that means you have to re-architect your entire project.
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2016-02-26T12:36:05Z pareidolia: attila_lendvai: I'm going to check out your suggestions, köszönöm szépen :)
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2016-02-26T12:49:34Z attila_lendvai: pareidolia: I'm not sure it is what you are looking for, but: http://hub.darcs.net/hu.dwim/hu.dwim.common/browse/source/common.lisp#51
2016-02-26T12:49:46Z attila_lendvai: pareidolia: szívesen! :)
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2016-02-26T12:50:32Z pareidolia: I'm getting all analysis paralysis over test frameworks now :P
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2016-02-26T13:02:57Z splittist: pareidolia: pick one. Then change your mind and write an automatic test-translator. Then generalise that to a test-translation framework. You'll avoid work for years!
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2016-02-26T13:14:14Z jackdaniel: https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/703206342702534657 voila :-)
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2016-02-26T13:17:31Z moore33: jackdaniel: Do you have any experience using Linux perf with ECL?
2016-02-26T13:17:54Z jackdaniel: moore33: no
2016-02-26T13:17:59Z jackdaniel: why?
2016-02-26T13:19:00Z moore33: jackdaniel: It's an incredibly useful tool for profiling C and C++ programs. Someday in my infinite spare time I'd like to write the glue that would make it useful for sbcl or ccl (if it hasn't been done already).
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2016-02-26T13:19:55Z Fare: pareidolia, just pick one at random
2016-02-26T13:20:40Z Fare: and/or look at a few systems you're familiar with, and copy/paste from one that has decent tests
2016-02-26T13:20:44Z moore33: jackdaniel: It might "just work" with ECL.
2016-02-26T13:20:49Z jackdaniel: moore33: thanks, I'll take the look at it :)
2016-02-26T13:20:53Z Fare: I personally like funcallable tests
2016-02-26T13:20:58Z Fare: so I went for stefil
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2016-02-26T13:21:13Z Fare: actually the hu.dwim variant
2016-02-26T13:22:51Z Fare: jackdaniel, in a way, asdf is a port of mk-defsystem to a modern CLOS world.
2016-02-26T13:23:46Z jackdaniel: I've added ASDF definition too btw
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2016-02-26T13:26:54Z Fare: thanks
2016-02-26T13:28:35Z Fare: and asdf2 is a port of asdf to portable cl, and asdf3 is a port of asdf2 to, uh, correct incremental builds?
2016-02-26T13:29:13Z Xach: Hmm, I can't figure out the problem with the WARNING in http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-02-25/failure-report/js.html#cl-js
2016-02-26T13:29:22Z jackdaniel: Fare: maybe you want to write small article for the next ECL Quarterly about ASDF's history? :-)
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2016-02-26T13:35:31Z splittist: Xach: #'string= as a :key?
2016-02-26T13:35:37Z attila_lendvai: Xach: that's two bugs I think: 1) it should be :test not :key, and the error message is flipped around
2016-02-26T13:35:47Z attila_lendvai: s/1)//
2016-02-26T13:36:00Z Xach: bless your eyes
2016-02-26T13:36:20Z splittist 's eyes begin to glow mysteriously...
2016-02-26T13:36:23Z Xach: ha
2016-02-26T13:36:28Z Xach: attila_lendvai: how is it flipped around?
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2016-02-26T13:37:24Z Fare: jackdaniel, I wrote all I knew in my asdf3 article.
2016-02-26T13:37:27Z attila_lendvai: Xach: sorry, that was a thinko. it's just the :key/:test bug, the warning text is fine
2016-02-26T13:37:30Z Fare: but it's not small
2016-02-26T13:38:04Z jackdaniel: http://fare.tunes.org/files/asdf3/asdf3-2014.html this? I'll read, thanks
2016-02-26T13:40:55Z Fare: yes
2016-02-26T13:41:53Z Fare: see also final insight in http://fare.livejournal.com/176185.html
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2016-02-26T13:44:17Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-02-25/failure-report/cl-mysql.html#cl-mysql is another bug caught by sbcl's new strictness
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2016-02-26T13:49:52Z pareidolia: Whoo, SBCL detects dead code (using fractions) where java (using floats) doesn't
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2016-02-26T13:50:00Z DeadTrickster:  fe[nl]ix I recently played with IOLib and cl+ssl https://github.com/cl-rabbit/cl-bunny/blob/ssl/src/transport/iolib-ssl-socket.lisp. async stuff is working, I also tested with iolib socket wrapped by cl+ssl stream. that works too. Can this be helpful to others somehow?
2016-02-26T13:51:33Z DeadTrickster: the main problem however is that read-fn and write-fn from dual-channel-fd-mixin only accept fds
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2016-02-26T13:58:13Z fe[nl]ix: DeadTrickster: blog about it
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2016-02-26T13:58:43Z Xach: https://github.com/hackinghat/cl-mysql/blob/master/mysql.lisp#L466 -- that should be :test 'string= :key 'car, right?
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2016-02-26T14:02:48Z splittist: Xach: I'm pretty sure that's right. Certainly that seems to be what 17.2.1 is saying in a needlessly complex way.
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2016-02-26T14:06:29Z DeadTrickster: can list of loaded system be somehow promoted to features? I want detect in my code if certain systems present but they do not alter *features*
2016-02-26T14:08:10Z jackdaniel: Fare: what would be the best way to issue a warning that it won't prevent ASDF from erroring on mkcl and sbcl? I mean this situation: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/dkochmanski/metering/blob/master/metering.cl#L132 in context of ASDF's http://paste.lisp.org/display/308283
2016-02-26T14:08:15Z attila_lendvai: DeadTrickster: that will lead to headaches. always record explicit dependencies... (fasl compiled with system loaded, and then loaded into an image without the system)
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2016-02-26T14:08:44Z jackdaniel: Fare: why it's a diffrent behavior for these two anyway?
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2016-02-26T14:09:47Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, here is what I'm trying to do: say we have 5 json parsing libs and I'm writing api client. I want to load json 'backend' depending on already loaded json parser
2016-02-26T14:10:16Z loke`: DeadTrickster: Why?
2016-02-26T14:10:49Z DeadTrickster: loke`, say I don't want to force user to load and depend on another lib
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2016-02-26T14:11:06Z loke`: DeadTrickster: Why is that a problem?
2016-02-26T14:11:33Z DeadTrickster: less code is better :-)
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2016-02-26T14:11:51Z loke`: But in this case, you'll end up with _more_ code.
2016-02-26T14:12:06Z DeadTrickster: esp when they both trying to be smart and use json package nickname for example
2016-02-26T14:12:14Z loke`: All that code to create a compatibilit library on top of the different JSON-parsers, inlcuding testing them for all their idiosyncracies.
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2016-02-26T14:12:29Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: There's https://github.com/Shinmera/deferred
2016-02-26T14:13:24Z DeadTrickster: loke`, yes I understand that
2016-02-26T14:13:45Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, close but I actually was thinking about asdf plugin probably
2016-02-26T14:13:51Z DeadTrickster: are you using it actually?
2016-02-26T14:14:10Z Shinmera: I've only had a need for this twice and wrote the lib after I've come across it.
2016-02-26T14:14:33Z Shinmera: (most notably Chrip and South maybe needing an HTTP server, so maybe having to load Hunchentoot as a fallback default)
2016-02-26T14:15:13Z Fare: jackdaniel, use style-warn ?
2016-02-26T14:16:11Z Fare: I believe there should be a style-warn in alexandria
2016-02-26T14:16:21Z Fare: I remember agonizing on whether to include it in uiop or not
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2016-02-26T14:17:27Z jackdaniel: but it's not a problem with styling, so I think that warning is a proper thing here
2016-02-26T14:17:38Z attila_lendvai: there's alexandria:simple-style-warning
2016-02-26T14:20:03Z jackdaniel: (I'll probably do exactly that, but it doesn't seem a proper approach to me)
2016-02-26T14:20:21Z smokeink: how to get rid of the eval ? any idiomatic way to get out of such situations? http://pastecode.ru/62b074/
2016-02-26T14:20:43Z Fare: I wouldn't print a warning at compile-time
2016-02-26T14:21:12Z Fare: but then again, I didn't pick this part of the behavior
2016-02-26T14:21:38Z Fare: that's one bad thing with cl: no one is responsible to fix the bugs in the spec
2016-02-26T14:21:54Z Xach: smokeink: is that postmodern?
2016-02-26T14:21:58Z smokeink: yes
2016-02-26T14:24:33Z Xach: smokeink: i use s-sql:sql-compile in situations like that
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2016-02-26T14:25:14Z Xach: s-sql is part of postmodern.
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2016-02-26T14:26:30Z jackdaniel: Fare: yeah, that's a good advice. I'll just print it on load/eval. Thanks
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2016-02-26T15:28:10Z oleo_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/308288#1
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2016-02-26T15:36:49Z smokeink: Xach:thanks for the tip
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2016-02-26T15:44:55Z jasom: DeadTrickster: usually the way to do it is to have separate .asd files for each backend: e.g. foo/cl-json foo/yason foo/jonathan
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2016-02-26T15:55:27Z DeadTrickster: jasom, I know I just wanted to do something like #+yason foo/cl-json #+jonathan foo/jonathan
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2016-02-26T17:50:45Z dwchandler writes a tutorial on cycling one's irc nick using common lisp... think it's be popular?
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2016-02-26T17:54:23Z jackdaniel: like hydan -> hydan` -> hydan -> hydan` ?
2016-02-26T17:54:32Z jackdaniel: people will love it ;)
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2016-02-26T17:55:51Z dwchandler: exactly like that ;)
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2016-02-26T18:42:02Z jasom: I have my client set to not show nick changes for someone who isn't speaking
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2016-02-26T21:06:28Z PuercoPop: pavelpenev: besides fedation, something along the lines of semantic mediawiki (or wikidata), where one can 'query' information on the wiki, seems like a good idea. Think along the lines, all the web pages of the cl-projects for example. Using templates as a way to input statements as well as presentations.
2016-02-26T21:07:07Z pavelpenev: PuercoPop: the web as it should have been :)
2016-02-26T21:08:42Z PuercoPop: pavelpenev: I'm still at the 'Futurama Fry' state regarding the semantic web
2016-02-26T21:10:13Z PuercoPop: one thing I'm wondering is, if it is better to store pages in the db, like wikipedia or just in a flat disc. The Table approach 'commits' some attributes as blessed
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2016-02-26T21:21:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: PuercoPop: you could just abstract "attribute" as a many-to-many relation.
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2016-02-26T21:28:28Z PuercoPop: true
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2016-02-26T22:02:00Z dreamaddict: so I'm trying to work with the OpenAL bindings, and the error handling only has one message for every error
2016-02-26T22:02:04Z hydan` is now known as hydan
2016-02-26T22:02:21Z dreamaddict: I'd like to try and change that somehow...what is the best "etiquette" for changing a package like that?
2016-02-26T22:03:17Z dreamaddict: I mean, I could just hack it up directly but then my source would be different than the actual package
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2016-02-26T22:04:06Z Bike: same as anything else, rewrite it and send back a pull request, or maybe fork, or maybe write your own thing on top but that's kind of a pain
2016-02-26T22:04:27Z dreamaddict: it doesn't look like putting my own thing on top is going to be easy
2016-02-26T22:04:31Z dreamaddict: that would end up being a pain in the ass
2016-02-26T22:04:55Z Bike: fork it is then. what do you mean by the one message thing?
2016-02-26T22:04:58Z Bike: fork/rewrite*
2016-02-26T22:05:02Z dreamaddict: so...probably just hack at it directly, and if it works (is just better overall) then go to his github and fork
2016-02-26T22:05:20Z dreamaddict: I mean, no matter what error actually happens it just has one generic error message "there was a problem loading <whatever>"
2016-02-26T22:05:40Z dreamaddict: OpenAL actually has many error conditions that it can report, and they are all just caught and reported with that one message
2016-02-26T22:05:44Z dreamaddict: I kind of need to know more :P
2016-02-26T22:05:47Z PuercoPop: dreamaddict: subclass the error-condition and signal the specific-error you want to?
2016-02-26T22:05:47Z Bike: improving that seems like something that would probably be incorporated
2016-02-26T22:05:51Z jasom: Improving error condition reporting is almost always a welcome contribution
2016-02-26T22:06:27Z dreamaddict: sounds like I'm just going to try and improve it and see what happens
2016-02-26T22:06:41Z dreamaddict: if the solution is good then I'll fork it on github
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2016-02-26T22:11:49Z dreamaddict: and quicklisp won't do anything weird...?  I use (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (ql:quickload '(whatever libs)))
2016-02-26T22:12:26Z jasom: dreamaddict: you can put it in local-projects, or anywhere else that ASDF will pickup.  The quicklisp distribution only gets pulled in if it's not found anywhere else
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2016-02-26T22:12:30Z Bike: you can put your fork in local-projects and it'll load it preferentially
2016-02-26T22:12:41Z dreamaddict: ahhhhh thank you Bike
2016-02-26T22:12:46Z dreamaddict: that's what I want
2016-02-26T22:12:49Z jasom appears to be stepping on Bike's lines
2016-02-26T22:12:49Z Bike: anyway, definitely send a pull request once you're done, so that the maintainer incorporates your changes and you don't need to worry about that kinda crap
2016-02-26T22:12:54Z dreamaddict: definitely
2016-02-26T22:13:10Z jasom: and then don't forget to delete your fork from local-projects once it's been upstreamed to quicklisp
2016-02-26T22:13:16Z dreamaddict: no that's totally perfect, that means that I can make a copy of the libs into local-projects and fuck it up to my hearts content
2016-02-26T22:13:23Z jasom: yup
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2016-02-26T22:13:29Z dreamaddict: and then delete it if I want and the old one will still work
2016-02-26T22:13:33Z dreamaddict: nice nice nice nice
2016-02-26T22:13:48Z jasom: but be careful, I did something similar for parenscript, and now I'm officially a contributor
2016-02-26T22:14:00Z dreamaddict: :)
2016-02-26T22:15:35Z dreamaddict: last thing I can think of...let's say that I actually make something work better (!!!)...how would I represent this on my own github so that I can add to my "portfolio"?
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2016-02-26T22:17:43Z jasom: dreamaddict: If you open a PR on github, it shows up as a "repository you've contributed to"
2016-02-26T22:18:07Z dreamaddict: PR?
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2016-02-26T22:18:53Z jasom: pull request
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2016-02-26T22:19:15Z dreamaddict: gotcha...the finer points of github, I still do not know
2016-02-26T22:19:56Z dreamaddict: and...would it look bad to a potential employer if my github were under this informal name (dreamaddict)?  I have heard that the best thing to do is use your real name for github accounts for this reason
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2016-02-26T22:20:13Z dreamaddict: (wasn't thinking about that when I made mine)
2016-02-26T22:20:25Z jasom: meh, if there aren't immaturre references to sex/drugs/&ct. you should be fine
2016-02-26T22:20:35Z jasom: and Github has a place to put your real name
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2016-02-26T22:20:43Z dreamaddict: awesome
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2016-02-26T22:22:05Z |3b|: also consider if you would really want to work somewhere it was a problem :)
2016-02-26T22:22:09Z dreamaddict: one of our friends who works at Google told me that it would be possible to land a coding job from nothing, with a portfolio showing enough substantial contributions to open/free software
2016-02-26T22:22:22Z dreamaddict: obviously I would not 3b :P but I don't even know if that's an option
2016-02-26T22:22:27Z jasom: land an interview, yes, a job, not so much
2016-02-26T22:22:48Z |3b|: helps if it is the right open/free software too
2016-02-26T22:22:50Z jasom: how to get a job is much more nebulous
2016-02-26T22:23:06Z dreamaddict: he said, whatever really interests you, just do enough good work on it and you will be recognized
2016-02-26T22:23:13Z dreamaddict: I liked how that sounded
2016-02-26T22:23:14Z jasom: it usually happens when your strengths are in the narrow area that the interviewer thinks is indicative of general skill
2016-02-26T22:23:32Z |3b| suspects that is sort of like the "just be yourself"
2016-02-26T22:23:35Z |3b|: advice
2016-02-26T22:23:40Z dreamaddict: right :P
2016-02-26T22:23:54Z jasom: I did get offered an interview from mozilla once from my work on rust
2016-02-26T22:24:38Z jasom: that's the only time anything's been offered in 10 years of work on open-source software
2016-02-26T22:24:51Z dreamaddict: but really, it seems to me that actually coding (not just typing words into the computer), which is adding order and functionality where it did not exist before, indicates the general skill no matter what the exact area
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2016-02-26T22:25:46Z Bike: a degree or whatever is for indicating more than (maybe "other than") skill, as far as i know
2016-02-26T22:26:06Z jasom: it's a combination of skill, plus actually doing the necessary things to get it up to the standard of the project.  I submitted a bug-fix for react, and I spent 10x as much time fitting all their contribution requirements as actually solving the problem I had
2016-02-26T22:26:19Z dreamaddict: yep that's coding
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2016-02-26T22:31:01Z jasom: well the intersection of people that can write software *and* dot-the-I's and cross-the-T's is what many places are looking for
2016-02-26T22:31:15Z jasom: And having a degree with a good GPA shows some of the latter
2016-02-26T22:31:32Z jasom: since getting good grades is mainly a function of making your instructors happy
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2016-02-26T23:43:33Z fiddlerwoaroof got a job in a language I had no prior experience in (PHP) on the basis of something I hacked together "just because"
2016-02-26T23:43:50Z dreamaddict: well fixing the error reporting was surprisingly easy
2016-02-26T23:44:15Z dreamaddict: next thing is a bit trickier...not sure how this works
2016-02-26T23:45:06Z dreamaddict: to create a waveform in ALUT you need to pass an enum value for what shape you want it...I'd like to make an assoc list that keeps track of them lisp style like (('triangle 2)('square 3)) or whatever they are
2016-02-26T23:45:15Z fiddlerwoaroof just discovered that C-y works in weechat.
2016-02-26T23:45:37Z dreamaddict: so that you can invoke the load-from waveform with (load-from-waveform 'triangle freq phase len) and you get a triangle of freq phase and len
2016-02-26T23:46:04Z dreamaddict: but...where would that assoc list go so that it only works inside of the lib and doesn't pollute anything else, yet all you'd have to pass to the function is the symbol?
2016-02-26T23:46:06Z |3b|: usually do that with defcenum
2016-02-26T23:46:23Z dreamaddict: ok I'll look into that
2016-02-26T23:46:28Z |3b|: (which is part of cffi)
2016-02-26T23:46:50Z dreamaddict: just those two things (error handling and this) will add a bit of nice polish to the openAL bindings
2016-02-26T23:47:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: dreamaddict: you might also consider adding restarts...
2016-02-26T23:47:31Z dreamaddict: restarts...?
2016-02-26T23:47:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs restart-case
2016-02-26T23:47:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rst_ca.htm
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2016-02-26T23:47:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html
2016-02-26T23:48:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, you can predefine certain recovery strategies near where the failure happens
2016-02-26T23:48:12Z dreamaddict: ok that will take more research for sure
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2016-02-26T23:48:25Z dreamaddict: error handling is one of my weak points (of many)
2016-02-26T23:48:27Z Bike: might be hard for a foreign library, though
2016-02-26T23:48:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: and let the user decide later on which path to take.
2016-02-26T23:48:56Z dreamaddict: this was just because I wanted to actually make something with openAL and know what I was doing :P and at least it works better than what was there without fucking anything else up
2016-02-26T23:49:01Z dreamaddict: I call that a win :P
2016-02-26T23:50:02Z dreamaddict: defcenum looks perfect
2016-02-26T23:51:35Z dreamaddict: with restarting, you mean being able to add something to the REPL error handler, so that in case of (for example) a bad filename, the user can opt to retry calling the function with a valid filename?
2016-02-26T23:51:50Z dreamaddict: possibly even matching in the directory for something that looks close to correct?
2016-02-26T23:52:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: dreamaddict: yes
2016-02-26T23:52:06Z Bike: yes, though they're also available without the repl
2016-02-26T23:52:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, you can also invoke the restart programatically with invoke-restart
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2016-02-26T23:52:43Z dreamaddict: adding error recovery tactics sounds awesome
2016-02-26T23:52:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most languages split exception handling into catching and handling
2016-02-26T23:53:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: oopos.
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2016-02-26T23:53:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: most languages split errors into places that signal an error and places that handle it.
2016-02-26T23:54:00Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: lisp does as well, but it doesn't throw away the context in which the error occured first
2016-02-26T23:54:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm clumsily saying what is said in PCL
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2016-02-26T23:55:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: About the two-part error handling vs. three-part handling
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