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2016-02-25T00:30:29Z fchurca: hi
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2016-02-25T00:34:16Z pillton: fchurca: G'day.
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2016-02-25T01:52:14Z myrkraverk: Is it possible to read data from drakma piecemeal?  As in, if I want to give a status feedback on a huge download, or display a partial image.
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2016-02-25T02:02:25Z pillton: From the documentation 3. -> 12. "Piecemeal assembly of request contents."
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2016-02-25T04:39:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-25T04:45:54Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-02-25T04:47:39Z fchurca: hi beach
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2016-02-25T04:52:25Z clintm: mornin' beach!
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2016-02-25T05:04:25Z beach: From looking at several recommendations (ACM, MLA, Chicago manual of style), it appears that it is not recommended to include URLs in bibliography entries for otherwise published material, and when a URL *is* included, it should be accompanied by the date of retrieval.
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2016-02-25T06:44:15Z lieven: beach: makes sense. urls have a tendency to bitrot fairly fast. Wikipedia is filled with links to stuff that can no longer be found.
2016-02-25T06:44:35Z beach: Right.  That's the reason.
2016-02-25T06:45:41Z beach: But this is IRC, so it had to be debated, questions, argued with, etc.
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2016-02-25T06:47:42Z beach: lieven: But maybe you missed the discussion from yesterday (UTC+1).
2016-02-25T06:48:39Z lieven: yes I did
2016-02-25T06:49:04Z beach: Lucky you.
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2016-02-25T06:52:26Z lieven: well, it's not as if any field is so pristine with respect to bibliography. "Personal Communication" or references to very obscure journals.
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2016-02-25T06:54:41Z beach: Sure.  Still, it makes sense to have general guidelines and reasons behind those guidelines.
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2016-02-25T07:10:55Z jackdaniel: the original assertion was stronger though
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2016-02-25T09:22:31Z sigjuice: can't quite tell if ubuntu 15.10 has a clozure cl package and what is it called. any suggestions?
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2016-02-25T09:24:51Z z0d: sigjuice: clc?
2016-02-25T09:25:00Z z0d: I mean, ccl
2016-02-25T09:26:22Z sigjuice: don't see ccl :/
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2016-02-25T09:30:11Z z0d: if you can't find it with 'apt-cache search clozure' I doubt it's in 15.10
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2016-02-25T09:33:13Z sigjuice: thanks z0d . I have just downloaded official binary tarball.
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2016-02-25T12:30:14Z varjag: do we have a builtin like (mapc #'fn (reverse somelist))?
2016-02-25T12:30:35Z varjag: i.e. applying fn in reverse but without actually consing up a new list
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2016-02-25T12:31:31Z phoe_krk: varjag: unless you want to traverse the list in O(n^2), I don't think so
2016-02-25T12:31:41Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: it's just 2n
2016-02-25T12:31:47Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: 2n?
2016-02-25T12:31:59Z jackdaniel: varjag: you may use reduce and :from-end t, but it's different then mapc
2016-02-25T12:32:04Z phoe_krk: what algorithm would it be?
2016-02-25T12:32:22Z varjag: the usual recurrent descent
2016-02-25T12:32:26Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: first I can think of is pushing elements on the stack and proessing them afterward
2016-02-25T12:32:30Z phoe_krk: oh! right.
2016-02-25T12:32:32Z phoe_krk: thanks.
2016-02-25T12:33:05Z varjag: jackdaniel: i do a small labels in place where i need it now
2016-02-25T12:33:12Z varjag: but it looks just as ugly and excessive
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2016-02-25T12:34:03Z jackdaniel: you may create your own mapc*
2016-02-25T12:34:14Z jackdaniel: with the key :from-end
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2016-02-25T12:37:16Z varjag: right
2016-02-25T12:37:18Z varjag: thanks
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2016-02-25T12:46:22Z igam: The other function that guarantees a processing from the end of the list are count, count-if and count-if-not. Since you said mapc, you don't mid the result, count might be better than reduce.
2016-02-25T12:46:48Z igam: Be careful that any other function having a :from-end parameter may actually process the elements in order, and just return the last result.
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2016-02-25T12:48:18Z igam: (defun always-true (f) (lambda (&rest args) (apply f args) t)) (count-if (always-true (function fn)) some-sequence :from-end t)
2016-02-25T12:49:27Z igam: varjag: you might also want to read Beach's paper about from-end processing.
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2016-02-25T12:55:48Z varjag: igam: quite correct, i care about the order of side effect only
2016-02-25T12:55:54Z varjag: thanks
2016-02-25T12:56:15Z varjag: what's the paper was that btw?
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2016-02-25T12:58:37Z Shinmera: It was at ELS'15
2016-02-25T12:59:16Z Shinmera: http://metamodular.com/reverse-order.pdf
2016-02-25T13:00:26Z varjag: thank you, couldn't quite google it out
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2016-02-25T13:45:07Z kenanb: wat? loading the library fails with normal quickload while the same library with quickload verbose works. heisenbug!
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2016-02-25T13:51:22Z clintm: na na na na watman
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2016-02-25T13:55:30Z DeadTrickster: is it possible to delete page on cliki? I messed up with title
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2016-02-25T14:08:55Z igam: DeadTrickster: you can blank it out and mark it for future deletion, IIRC.
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2016-02-25T14:09:33Z igam: DeadTrickster: just leave:  *(Delete this page)  in it.
2016-02-25T14:09:39Z DeadTrickster: ah ok thanks
2016-02-25T14:11:49Z otwieracz: How can I find, having name of the class, what classes do it inherit from?
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2016-02-25T14:13:07Z jackdaniel: otwieracz: class-precedence-list from mop
2016-02-25T14:13:13Z jackdaniel: or, direct-superclasses
2016-02-25T14:13:30Z jackdaniel: class-direct-superclasses °
2016-02-25T14:13:50Z otwieracz: Hm
2016-02-25T14:13:53Z otwieracz: I've never used MOP
2016-02-25T14:14:26Z igam: (ql:quickload :closer-mop) (c2mop:class-direct-superclasses (find-class 'base-char)) #| --> (#<built-in-class t>) |#
2016-02-25T14:14:45Z igam: Funny, I would have expected character… (in ccl)
2016-02-25T14:15:11Z DeadTrickster: another one cliki question: I have library just for http routes I think it goes to Web but I'm not sure to which subcategory
2016-02-25T14:15:15Z igam: (c2mop:class-precedence-list (find-class 'base-char)) #| --> (#<built-in-class character> #<built-in-class t>) |#
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2016-02-25T14:15:53Z igam: http routes, that's in server, no?
2016-02-25T14:16:28Z igam: You'd be the first in this category: http://cliki.net/Web%20server
2016-02-25T14:16:34Z igam: (No hunchentoot here???)
2016-02-25T14:16:42Z DeadTrickster: HTTP servers
2016-02-25T14:17:05Z DeadTrickster: I can't decide between HTTP servers and Web frameworks
2016-02-25T14:17:26Z igam: You may write two categories on a page, I think.
2016-02-25T14:17:31Z otwieracz: igam: thank you!
2016-02-25T14:18:13Z DeadTrickster: yeah I know just not sure where it actually fits better.
2016-02-25T14:18:33Z DeadTrickster: I think I'll go with to tags and someone will edit it that is not ok
2016-02-25T14:18:35Z jackdaniel: glad I could help ;-)
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2016-02-25T14:19:09Z DeadTrickster: if not ok
2016-02-25T14:19:11Z DeadTrickster: anyway
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2016-02-25T14:20:27Z DeadTrickster: funny cl-routes (another routes lib) is in "Dealing with URIs"
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2016-02-25T14:25:53Z DeadTrickster: here we go: http://www.cliki.net/http-routes feedback is welcome
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2016-02-25T14:33:56Z jackdaniel:  DeadTrickster is it a new library?
2016-02-25T14:35:07Z jackdaniel: there is no description what is it (ie code snipped - to what?, where is the main repository if it's a library?, what is #'define-routes)
2016-02-25T14:35:21Z jackdaniel: oh, OK, there is repository
2016-02-25T14:35:23Z jackdaniel: sorry
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2016-02-25T14:35:44Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, no problem thank you anyway
2016-02-25T14:35:53Z jackdaniel: I would put it at the beginning
2016-02-25T14:36:09Z jackdaniel: and "ASDF-install package (obsolete)" seems misleading
2016-02-25T14:36:21Z DeadTrickster: yeah I created three pages so far and yeah obsolete stuff bothers me
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2016-02-25T14:38:59Z DeadTrickster: two others: http://www.cliki.net/ia-hash-table http://www.cliki.net/Cl-BUNNY%20-%20RabbitMQ%20Client
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2016-02-25T14:40:01Z jackdaniel: would you mind if I change the page a little?
2016-02-25T14:40:19Z DeadTrickster: sure why not
2016-02-25T14:40:26Z DeadTrickster: it is a wiki afterall )
2016-02-25T14:41:18Z DeadTrickster: I also added github repo link to http-routes. Btw why there is no templates? Just one good template will be cool
2016-02-25T14:41:28Z jackdaniel: http://www.cliki.net/http-routes here
2016-02-25T14:42:26Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, yea I see. I tried this pattern but here http://www.cliki.net/URI http-routes appears twice then
2016-02-25T14:42:31Z DeadTrickster: so I removed it
2016-02-25T14:42:39Z DeadTrickster: but I think it is still better
2016-02-25T14:43:46Z jackdaniel: right
2016-02-25T14:46:37Z newcup: to nitpick: there's a typo both on the wiki page and in repo's readme.md: "capabale"
2016-02-25T14:47:08Z newcup: that's all I'm able to contribute right now :)
2016-02-25T14:48:46Z DeadTrickster: newcup, yeah English definitely on my native language and sometimes I just can't get spelling right
2016-02-25T14:48:48Z DeadTrickster: thanks
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2016-02-25T14:51:46Z newcup: DeadTrickster: you're welcome. looks good otherwise!
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2016-02-25T14:55:52Z DeadTrickster: and the last one - http://www.cliki.net/cl-events here I'm not sure should I copy the whole README? it's really big...
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2016-02-25T14:58:51Z newcup: DeadTrickster: it only works with sbcl?
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2016-02-25T15:00:17Z newcup: I mean http-routes
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2016-02-25T15:22:42Z lisp-noob: i've seen in a lot of cl code the use of #+sbcl (statement to be executed on sbcl only) #+ecl (same for ecl). I can guess what this does, but is there any documentation on it?
2016-02-25T15:23:44Z flip214: lisp-noob: 2.4.8.17 Sharpsign Plus
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2016-02-25T15:23:48Z flip214: clhs #+
2016-02-25T15:23:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
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2016-02-25T15:23:54Z flip214: lisp-noob: ^^
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2016-02-25T15:25:04Z antoszka: lisp-noob: In simple terms, it's a reader macro that allows execution of a certain form whenever a given symbol is present in *FEATURES*.
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2016-02-25T15:26:17Z ralt: aka (push :foo :features) #+foo(print "foo") #-foo(print "bar") will print "foo"
2016-02-25T15:26:27Z ralt: err, (push :foo *features*)
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2016-02-25T15:36:21Z lisp-noob: thanks flip214 and antoszka!
2016-02-25T15:36:51Z lisp-noob: i had no idea about the *features* global
2016-02-25T15:36:53Z antoszka: lisp-noob: np, feel free to join #clnoobs as well
2016-02-25T15:37:00Z lisp-noob: seems less magic now :)
2016-02-25T15:37:30Z antoszka: All is transparent in CL :)
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2016-02-25T15:39:55Z flip214: is there some newer LTK documentation than the one at http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/? scale lists :showvalue, but this doesn't work for me... "invalid initialization argument".
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2016-02-25T15:41:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: flip214: (describe 'ltk:some-function)
2016-02-25T15:41:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: or just (describe 'some-funct), if the package has been used.
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2016-02-25T15:42:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: You might also need to check the documentation for the underlying tk function.
2016-02-25T15:42:38Z jackdaniel: flip214: i've recently worked with ltk, it's pretty bad (the doc). You'll better work with source comments. Make sure youu check out the ltk-mw
2016-02-25T15:42:55Z jackdaniel: it has many very useful components
2016-02-25T15:43:14Z jackdaniel: it's boundled with ltk, but has different system definition
2016-02-25T15:43:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, qtools is nice, if you can switch toolkits.
2016-02-25T15:43:24Z jackdaniel: separate*
2016-02-25T15:43:52Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof: do you have a doc link for qtools for me handy?
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2016-02-25T15:44:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: flip214: http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/
2016-02-25T15:44:34Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks, looking
2016-02-25T15:45:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: In the past, I've had problems getting it working, but Shinmera was really helpful.
2016-02-25T15:45:19Z Shinmera: I try my best.
2016-02-25T15:45:54Z flip214: is there an example with a canvas, too?
2016-02-25T15:46:03Z Shinmera: Yes
2016-02-25T15:46:07Z flip214: drawing pixel by pixel via ltk is very slow anyway
2016-02-25T15:46:22Z Shinmera: That's gonna be slow no matter what
2016-02-25T15:46:27Z flip214: https://github.com/resttime/linem/blob/master/canvas.lisp   404
2016-02-25T15:46:35Z flip214: thanks, google
2016-02-25T15:47:44Z flip214: https://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/#id106003  ... Trivial currency conversion dialog link: 404. grrg.
2016-02-25T15:47:58Z Shinmera: flip214: Can you not read or something?
2016-02-25T15:48:06Z Shinmera: there's a link to examples on the documentation page you were linked
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2016-02-25T15:48:55Z flip214: Shinmera: I try to... I thought that a specific google query for "lisp qtools canvas" would be faster than digging myself.
2016-02-25T15:49:18Z Shinmera: google usually is pretty bad for lisp searches
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2016-02-25T15:50:18Z Shinmera: Either way, you'll want to look at the Qt QPainter docs and the Getting Started tutorial on the Qtools docs.
2016-02-25T15:50:37Z Shinmera: and perhaps the opengl example if you want to use GL
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2016-02-25T15:52:03Z flip214: Shinmera: thanks, looking.
2016-02-25T15:53:18Z Shinmera: Oh- also, look at the QImage docs if you absolutely need pixel by pixel manipulation
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2016-02-25T16:04:36Z Shinmera: flip214: Which system combination (lisp&os) are you working on?
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2016-02-25T16:43:23Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2016-02-25T16:50:32Z jasom: good evening beach
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2016-02-25T16:51:45Z jasom: flip214: the documentation for ltk is nearly 100% useless; the source + the tk 8.5 docs are what I use
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2016-02-25T16:52:38Z jasom: flip214: and yes if you're doing pixel-by-pixel drawing, ltk is the wrong choice
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2016-02-25T17:04:30Z DeadTrickster: newcup, as far as I remember sbcl specific code is relate to custom-test hashtables
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2016-02-25T17:07:51Z DeadTrickster: newcup, so it can be used with allegro, ccl, lispworks and probably others. but I'm using sbcl only, yes
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2016-02-25T17:10:01Z DeadTrickster: Xach_, when updating library from github you automatically trying to discover latest release?
2016-02-25T17:12:05Z akkad: is qtools the biggest package to build in quicklisp?
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2016-02-25T17:13:21Z Shinmera: Probably not
2016-02-25T17:14:15Z phoe_krk: minion: tell me about gentle
2016-02-25T17:14:15Z minion: phoe_krk: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2016-02-25T17:14:32Z newcup: DeadTrickster: yeah, that would be good to mention in the readme, I think
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2016-02-25T17:16:51Z newcup: DeadTrickster: (and then there's https://github.com/metawilm/cl-custom-hash-table, in quicklisp too, but not sure if it does what you require)
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2016-02-25T17:22:57Z akkad: clr is good too
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2016-02-25T17:32:28Z jasom: akkad: if you want a big package, I can send you my gtk-sharp bindings for foil
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2016-02-25T17:32:45Z jasom: It takes several minutes for sbcl to build
2016-02-25T17:33:51Z jasom: on lisp file is 23MB
2016-02-25T17:34:11Z Shinmera: Hm
2016-02-25T17:34:18Z Shinmera: Actually the Q+ system produces the biggest FASL I've seen
2016-02-25T17:34:26Z Shinmera: I think it was... 35mb?
2016-02-25T17:34:30Z Shinmera: something like that.
2016-02-25T17:34:31Z jasom: haha
2016-02-25T17:34:38Z jasom: I'm pretty sure I've got that beat
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2016-02-25T17:35:10Z jasom: 93MB
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2016-02-25T17:37:01Z jasom: I had to change how the code was generated, as originally foil made a single top-level form for each package, and a 23MB top-level form caused sbcl to barf
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2016-02-25T17:38:07Z jasom: I also had to change it to be case-sensitive, as somewhere in gtk there is a method named "New"
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2016-02-25T17:41:16Z Shinmera: I'm not sure what the biggest combination of smoke modules is that you can load at once (you can't load all of 'em), but just picking a few results in 13'564 forms and... well I'm still waiting for it to finish. https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/T1RNdw==
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2016-02-25T17:42:03Z trinitr0n: my entire Symbolics lisp machine can fit the genera world in 35mb
2016-02-25T17:42:26Z trinitr0n: SBCL's size is miserable
2016-02-25T17:42:28Z jasom: 72150 forms in just the gtk package
2016-02-25T17:42:33Z trinitr0n: other than that it does a good job though
2016-02-25T17:42:55Z jasom: trinitr0n: it's almost like sbcl has made time-space tradeoffs as RAM has gotten cheaper :)
2016-02-25T17:43:08Z trinitr0n: yes, I do realize this believe it or not
2016-02-25T17:43:15Z trinitr0n: still kind of hilarious
2016-02-25T17:43:36Z trinitr0n: it's just sofaking big
2016-02-25T17:43:39Z jasom: LISP1.5 had memory size measured by kilo-words
2016-02-25T17:43:56Z Shinmera: Ok, it's 78Mb.
2016-02-25T17:44:00Z igam: 32 Kw was the maximum size of memory back then.
2016-02-25T17:44:07Z igam: The modem buffers took 16 Kw.
2016-02-25T17:44:14Z trinitr0n: I have a 512 kiloword board in my 3640
2016-02-25T17:44:24Z trinitr0n: I upgraded it to a whopping 4 MEGAWORDS
2016-02-25T17:44:35Z jasom: igam: that's just core though right? drum had additional ram?
2016-02-25T17:44:44Z trinitr0n: where wordsize = 36 bits
2016-02-25T17:44:45Z jasom: for certain definitions of "ram"
2016-02-25T17:44:58Z igam: (* 32 1024 36) -> 1.1 Mbit =  (* 32 1024 36 1/8) --> 147,456 Octets!
2016-02-25T17:45:57Z jasom: (* 32 1024 36 1/6) => 196608 characters
2016-02-25T17:46:02Z trinitr0n: I found a Symbolics 3630 last week for $500
2016-02-25T17:46:05Z trinitr0n: so that was pretty rafd
2016-02-25T17:46:07Z trinitr0n: *rad
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2016-02-25T17:47:34Z jasom: someone was telling me that MIT managed to talk ARPA into funding a full address space of core on a PDP-10: 1 Mw
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2016-02-25T17:48:33Z antoszka: trinitr0n: did you buy it?
2016-02-25T17:48:40Z trinitr0n: of course I did
2016-02-25T17:48:42Z antoszka: cool
2016-02-25T17:48:49Z antoszka: wouldn't want that to go to waste :)
2016-02-25T17:48:55Z trinitr0n: never :)
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2016-02-25T17:49:35Z trinitr0n: I am trying to get the sources to S-Graphics and all that
2016-02-25T17:49:41Z trinitr0n: as well as schematics at the moment
2016-02-25T17:50:05Z trinitr0n: http://i.imgur.com/8vr7qVw.jpg
2016-02-25T17:50:15Z antoszka: wow
2016-02-25T17:50:20Z trinitr0n: if you guys like the old shit...
2016-02-25T17:50:21Z antoszka: is that your “study”?
2016-02-25T17:50:24Z trinitr0n: yeah
2016-02-25T17:50:29Z antoszka envious
2016-02-25T17:50:51Z DeadTrickster: hrrr
2016-02-25T17:51:04Z antoszka: What are the two machines (floor, tower cases) on the right?
2016-02-25T17:51:19Z trinitr0n: I actually have another 3640 and 3620 in the basement as well. Eventually all the machines will go down there and I'll run console cable upstairs from the console switch
2016-02-25T17:51:22Z trinitr0n: those are 3620s
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2016-02-25T17:51:31Z DeadTrickster: trinitr0n, how old are you?
2016-02-25T17:51:34Z trinitr0n: 25
2016-02-25T17:51:35Z antoszka: cool
2016-02-25T17:51:47Z DeadTrickster: yeah
2016-02-25T17:51:58Z jasom: trinitr0n: oh are you the guy trying to image the old symbolics machines?
2016-02-25T17:52:09Z antoszka: so much life ahead of you – and already fully stocked in lispms :)
2016-02-25T17:52:13Z trinitr0n: yeah, that's me. Pal dumpin' disk rippin'
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2016-02-25T17:55:05Z trinitr0n: I've got other machines too- A Xerox 1186 running interlisp Medley, PDP 11/40. PDP 8/e, 3B2 / Bell Labs BLiT
2016-02-25T17:55:27Z trinitr0n: but the SMBX stuff is just too special, and actually got me into Lisp as a language
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2016-02-25T17:56:08Z trinitr0n: Interlisp Medley is pretty hilarious to compare to the Symbolics... they're both contemporary but it stacks up miserably
2016-02-25T17:56:47Z Fare: trinitr0n, tell us more
2016-02-25T17:57:15Z Fare: actually, Medley is just actualization of the older Interlisp from the 1970s
2016-02-25T17:57:32Z Fare: whereas Symbolics was under active development in the 1980s
2016-02-25T17:57:55Z trinitr0n: Wellllll... There is quite a bit added- the GUI for one. But as an environment, it's so much dirtier, less full featured.
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2016-02-25T17:59:04Z trinitr0n: Fun thing about Medley is, an unclean shutdown totally trashes the environment, necessitating a reload. You are supposed to proactively back up your paging / world (they are the same on Medley) to protect against this
2016-02-25T17:59:25Z trinitr0n: there is no concept of an incremental / diff save for the worlds - you have to carve out a lot of space
2016-02-25T17:59:44Z trinitr0n: It's pretty much a piece of shit. not to mention it's not CL
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2016-02-25T18:00:15Z trinitr0n: when I did LISP day at :  has joined #lisp
2016-02-25T18:00:15Z trinitr0n: 17:50 < DeadTrickster> trinitr0n, how old are you?
2016-02-25T18:00:17Z trinitr0n: oops
2016-02-25T18:00:24Z mitzelflick: I read Paul Graham would fork a lisp interp for each client browser, negating need for sessions, and fake continuations with closures, anyone try this?
2016-02-25T18:00:27Z trinitr0n: facebook.com/peoplescomputermuseum
2016-02-25T18:00:31Z trinitr0n: I put them side by side
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2016-02-25T18:03:52Z jasom: mitzelflick: one thread per client scales poorly with modern workloads, one process per client even moreso
2016-02-25T18:05:42Z Fare: depends what a "modern workload" is, but yeah, it's not the most resource-efficient way.
2016-02-25T18:05:53Z Fare: is there an erlang implementation in CL yet?
2016-02-25T18:06:14Z jasom: heh, you need green threads for that, and there isn't really a good green threads library
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2016-02-25T18:06:36Z mitzelflick: hmm
2016-02-25T18:07:28Z jackdaniel: cmucl has green threads
2016-02-25T18:07:37Z jackdaniel is working on green threads for ECL
2016-02-25T18:08:38Z varjag: mitzelflick: graham used cl for his online shop editors only
2016-02-25T18:08:45Z varjag: they generated static content
2016-02-25T18:08:54Z varjag: so there was never truly large scale load
2016-02-25T18:09:15Z moore33: beach: Hey, I need to show you my Chromebook running ccl.
2016-02-25T18:09:23Z jasom: right, the number of viaweb users was very small compared to the number of viaweb customers, which was small relative to the number of people on the internet today
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2016-02-25T18:09:54Z jasom: s/viaweb customers/viaweb users' customers
2016-02-25T18:09:54Z Fare: well, I implemented green threads on top of arnesi's call/cc interpreter
2016-02-25T18:10:05Z jasom: Fare: was that you?
2016-02-25T18:10:09Z Fare: attila_lendvai has something like that, too
2016-02-25T18:10:10Z mitzelflick: is it fast?
2016-02-25T18:10:15Z Fare: no
2016-02-25T18:10:25Z mitzelflick: :(
2016-02-25T18:10:28Z Fare: attila_lendvai probably has something less slow.
2016-02-25T18:10:48Z jasom: really it would be best to modify an already multithreaded implementation to use green threads
2016-02-25T18:10:52Z mitzelflick: numbers
2016-02-25T18:10:57Z Fare: that said, only the control part of your code needs to be in /cc mode
2016-02-25T18:10:59Z mitzelflick: they are getting bigger
2016-02-25T18:11:08Z attila_lendvai: what I have is the same (arnesi call/cc based), but we made it serializable, and committed it into the db
2016-02-25T18:11:10Z Fare: heavy computations can stay in direct mode
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2016-02-25T18:11:33Z mitzelflick: There are all these lisp concurrency libs and async libs...
2016-02-25T18:11:34Z jasom: attila_lendvai: oh, that's fancy
2016-02-25T18:11:53Z mitzelflick: I am confused as to which help with speed and low resources
2016-02-25T18:11:54Z Fare: if you want a lisp with call/cc that's not slow, try Gambit Scheme or PLT Racket.
2016-02-25T18:11:58Z jasom: and I was thinking of the one based off of cl-cont call/cc
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2016-02-25T18:12:28Z jasom: mitzelflick: concurrency and parallelism are complicated
2016-02-25T18:12:33Z Fare: mine was called philip-jose
2016-02-25T18:12:43Z jasom: was it a farmer?
2016-02-25T18:12:46Z Fare: because it was used to farm a few tens of worker processes
2016-02-25T18:12:52Z jasom: got it
2016-02-25T18:12:57Z PuercoPop: jasom: https://github.com/thezerobit/green-threads
2016-02-25T18:12:57Z attila_lendvai: also note that call/cc is more expensive than just green threads. nikodemus was considering adding green threads to sbcl
2016-02-25T18:13:02Z PuercoPop: that one?
2016-02-25T18:13:05Z jasom: PuercoPop: yeah
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2016-02-25T18:14:23Z jasom: attila_lendvai: adding green-threads to sbcl is something I have often considered
2016-02-25T18:15:19Z Fare: also, pkhuong had a trick for implementing a native call/cc in sbcl.
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2016-02-25T18:15:37Z attila_lendvai: we could have used that in our web server... the inversion of control needs to be made automatically to multiplex the connections, otherwise the code gets *ugly*. was planning to use call/cc, even had a proof of concept, but ran out of steam
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2016-02-25T18:15:55Z PuercoPop: btw Fare, hbaker mentions that Lisp could benefit from something akin to ada library model. Any idea how that would look like?
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2016-02-25T18:20:43Z mitzelflick: http://gwan.com/benchmark#loan100
2016-02-25T18:20:44Z mitzelflick: woa
2016-02-25T18:20:56Z mitzelflick: maybe time to let lisp talk to g-wan
2016-02-25T18:21:11Z mitzelflick: farmer a great author
2016-02-25T18:21:27Z mitzelflick: Havn't read the 5th tires
2016-02-25T18:21:38Z mitzelflick: Tiers
2016-02-25T18:21:46Z jasom: something that's always bothered me about lisp is that a .fasl is esentially just a pretreated list of operations to perform, typically for their side-effects, rather than being declarative; this limits opportunities to really put the FASt in FASl
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2016-02-25T18:25:25Z mitzelflick: whats fasl
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2016-02-25T18:31:40Z kruhft: fasl = fast load, typically an 'object' file that's produced by the lisp compiler
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2016-02-25T18:34:29Z jackdaniel: hm, I have a question regarding top-level and the evaluation times: http://paste.lisp.org/display/308217
2016-02-25T18:34:33Z jackdaniel: (question in comment)
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2016-02-25T18:35:30Z jasom: do I want to know why you have an eval-when (compile)?
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2016-02-25T18:36:05Z jackdaniel: probably not, but basically it's some inlined c-code
2016-02-25T18:37:04Z jackdaniel: like, you know, (ffi:c-inline () () :object "ecl_make_unsigned_integer(GC_get…)) etc
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2016-02-25T18:40:54Z jasom: I don't know that what you are trying to do is possible, and it seems like a bad idea to have different behavior when the code is compiled versus not compiled
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2016-02-25T18:42:18Z jasom: jackdaniel: I think the real solution is to put them in separate files, then so long as the previous file has been loaded, you can check for fboundp inside an eval-when
2016-02-25T18:43:42Z jasom: alternatively you could put both the qwe and xyz inside an eval-when as well to ensure that they alre executed before you check fboundp
2016-02-25T18:44:17Z jackdaniel: thanks
2016-02-25T18:44:31Z jasom: An eval-when block with all of :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute are set is a strict superset of what the compiler guarantees will happen for toplevel forms
2016-02-25T18:44:39Z trinitr0n: last Lisp Machine spam of the day, if people are interested http://imgur.com/a/CBoVc
2016-02-25T18:45:05Z H4ns: awww
2016-02-25T18:45:19Z H4ns: and an onyx on the side.
2016-02-25T18:45:51Z jackdaniel: o, GCL maintainer wrote back
2016-02-25T18:45:53Z antoszka: this is the best spam ever
2016-02-25T18:46:01Z trinitr0n: Which was turned on, for heating purposes. (Side note, if anyone has Allegro CL for IRIX, PM me ASAP)
2016-02-25T18:46:50Z antoszka: was there ever a common lisp environment for SGI machines (like the onyx)?
2016-02-25T18:46:52Z moore33: trinitr0n: Yeah, does the Reality Engine work?
2016-02-25T18:47:04Z trinitr0n: moore33: All three RealityEngines work
2016-02-25T18:47:10Z trinitr0n: it's a 3-cardcage system
2016-02-25T18:47:24Z trinitr0n: triple-RE2
2016-02-25T18:47:37Z moore33: antoszka: I ported "Utah Common Lisp" to SGI back in the day :) I'm pretty sure Lucid had a Mips port too.
2016-02-25T18:47:43Z antoszka: Cool.
2016-02-25T18:47:45Z moore33: trinitr0n: Very nice.
2016-02-25T18:47:55Z antoszka: Was thinking about something more comprehensive along the lines of Genera.
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2016-02-25T18:48:06Z trinitr0n: It's supposed to require three phase to run all three pipes but I did some nasty elecrical work to run it on the split-phase 220v going to my house
2016-02-25T18:48:14Z flip214: Shinmera: amd64, linux, mostly. jasom: yeah, thanks.
2016-02-25T18:48:15Z trinitr0n: it has held up so far without fire or smoke :)
2016-02-25T18:48:36Z Shinmera: flip214: Ok, good. Qtools should work just fine then (I hope).
2016-02-25T18:49:18Z antoszka: trinitr0n: are you generating a (fake) three-phase power supply from standard 220v?
2016-02-25T18:49:45Z trinitr0n: antoszka: no, I've rewired the power distribution unit to feed the third supply from a seperate 110v circuit
2016-02-25T18:50:02Z trinitr0n: each of the 3 OLS supplies actually just takes 110v
2016-02-25T18:50:11Z antoszka: ok
2016-02-25T18:50:14Z beach: moore33: It shall have to wait until you get back, right?
2016-02-25T18:50:46Z moore33: beach: Well, yes, since I have it with me.
2016-02-25T18:50:55Z trinitr0n: the trick is, antoszka, they all feed the same 48v bus, so you must make sure they all come up if the third CC is connected, otherwise the system goes over-current and behaves quite sadly
2016-02-25T18:51:00Z moore33: beach: But we're coming back on Saturday.
2016-02-25T18:51:00Z trinitr0n: (can't be good for it)
2016-02-25T18:51:22Z trinitr0n: system draws about 5,800w total when powered up
2016-02-25T18:51:27Z antoszka: trinitr0n: right, I'll know who to bug when I finally get hold of one of those :)
2016-02-25T18:51:36Z trinitr0n: :D
2016-02-25T18:51:37Z beach: moore33: Almost any time is fine with me.  Not Sunday afternoon this week though, 'cause I think I'll have the usual guests.
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2016-02-25T18:52:02Z moore33: beach: Ok, I'll ping you sometime after that.
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2016-02-25T18:52:13Z beach: Sounds good!
2016-02-25T18:52:53Z beach: Time to go do something else.
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2016-02-25T18:58:32Z DeadTrickster: looks like this is it. I shall use another language because writing social logins is over the top right now
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2016-02-25T19:02:03Z DeadTrickster: I was hoping fukamachi will write something but he just writes one web framework after another
2016-02-25T19:02:11Z antoszka: lol
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2016-02-25T19:03:54Z flip214: hmmm... "The alien function "sw_find_class" is undefined." in (QT::SW_FIND_CLASS...) in (QTOOLS::ENSURE-QCLASS QWIDGET), from the example's (DEFINE-WIDGET MAIN-WINDOW (QWIDGET) ())
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2016-02-25T19:06:17Z flip214: ah, found the solution.
2016-02-25T19:06:24Z raoulvdberge: Can I ask questions here about Lisp language implementation?
2016-02-25T19:06:56Z aeth: If it's a generic Lisp, ##lisp might be more appropriate
2016-02-25T19:07:23Z raoulvdberge: Alright, thanks.
2016-02-25T19:07:29Z aeth: This is for Common Lisp
2016-02-25T19:07:34Z aeth: which means basically, following the Hyperspec
2016-02-25T19:07:50Z aeth: That's a lot of work if your question is that you want to make your own implementation.
2016-02-25T19:08:19Z aeth: If you don't know about the Hyperspec, this is it: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm
2016-02-25T19:08:37Z raoulvdberge: Yeah, I'm not planning to implement from an actual spec :p
2016-02-25T19:09:35Z raoulvdberge: But I guess I can ask this here too, since Clisp has it too. How is the quoting of macros handled? Is it possible?
2016-02-25T19:09:51Z Bicyclidine: What do you mean by "quoting of macros"?
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2016-02-25T19:10:12Z Bicyclidine: also, "clisp" is a particular implementation of common lisp, so it's not a good shortening
2016-02-25T19:11:25Z raoulvdberge: Calling a macro in list quotation syntax.
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2016-02-25T19:12:39Z Bicyclidine: I think you and I have different ideas of quotation. If you have '(foo bar baz) then that evaluates to a list of three elements, and any macro definitions or anything else are irrelevant.
2016-02-25T19:13:00Z moore33: raoulvdberge: In Common Lisp, like most others, the forms in a quoted list are never evaluated, not as function calls, macros, or anything else.
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2016-02-25T19:14:02Z jurov: hi, i'm trying ECL with ffi library,anyone knows how to pass include directories and C libraries to linker?
2016-02-25T19:14:25Z Bicyclidine: If you mean quasiquoting it doesn't really make sense there either, since evaluations there are regular evaluations and macro anything isn't particularly special
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2016-02-25T19:17:16Z flip214: Shinmera: sorry for bothering you, but "QApplication::exec: Must be called from the main thread" and "QObject: Cannot create children for a parent that is in a different thread." - how does/should that work with slime/swank?
2016-02-25T19:18:04Z jackdaniel: jurov: ld-flags here https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/re55.html
2016-02-25T19:18:34Z jackdaniel: jurov: also compiler:*USER-LD-FLAGS*
2016-02-25T19:18:44Z jackdaniel: and compiler:*USER-CC-FLAGS*
2016-02-25T19:19:07Z jackdaniel: jurov: but if you go for ffi, use cffi
2016-02-25T19:19:25Z jackdaniel: these flags are for compiling lisp sources with ecl
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2016-02-25T19:20:25Z jurov: jackdaniel: so there is no way to just pass these options to (compile-file) and (load)?
2016-02-25T19:21:08Z Bicyclidine: i would guess you bind them around the calls
2016-02-25T19:21:16Z jurov: i'm using (ffi:clines) and (ffi:c-inline) and it works spiffy, as long as no custom compiler options are needed
2016-02-25T19:21:36Z jurov: even for C++
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2016-02-25T19:22:00Z jurov: something I have sought long time.. but need to solve this somehow
2016-02-25T19:22:56Z jurov: well i'll look into throwing asdf into the mix then
2016-02-25T19:22:57Z jackdaniel: jurov: try (let ((compiler::*USER-LD-FLAGS* "your flags")) (compile-file bah)))
2016-02-25T19:23:23Z Shinmera: flip214: If you use what Qtools provides you with-- with-main-window it'll take care of properly initialising things for you
2016-02-25T19:23:39Z jackdaniel: the most generic (ECL specific) build option which ASDF uses is compiler:builder function
2016-02-25T19:24:09Z jackdaniel: scratch "generic"
2016-02-25T19:24:13Z jackdaniel: the most ECL specific
2016-02-25T19:24:24Z flip214: Shinmera: that's what the qt-helloworld example is using, still I get this message: QApplication::exec: Must be called from the main thread
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2016-02-25T19:25:09Z Shinmera: flip214: What exactly are you doing?
2016-02-25T19:25:20Z jackdaniel: jurov: if you'll solve your problem, please write on the mailing list about your experience, so I can include it in examples/ directory
2016-02-25T19:25:27Z Shinmera: flip214: Just running (ql:quickload :qtools-helloworld) (qtools-helloworld:main) works just dandy from slime.
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2016-02-25T19:25:59Z flip214: Shinmera: I've got the qt-helloworld.lisp file in my editor, and do eval-buffer (after loading the qt libs)
2016-02-25T19:26:02Z flip214: then I run (main)
2016-02-25T19:26:34Z jurov: jackdaniel: you mean the ecl list?
2016-02-25T19:26:44Z flip214: Shinmera: sorry, doesn't for me....
2016-02-25T19:27:14Z jackdaniel: jurov: yes
2016-02-25T19:27:19Z flip214: swank via vim uses a separate thread for the repl, perhaps that's the problem
2016-02-25T19:27:40Z Bicyclidine: so does slime
2016-02-25T19:27:44Z jackdaniel: I'd recommend using asdf and #'asdf:make-build
2016-02-25T19:27:50Z jackdaniel: though
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2016-02-25T19:28:20Z flip214: Shinmera: thank you for your help, I believe to know where to look now
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2016-02-25T19:29:31Z flip214: https://www.reddit.com/r/learnlisp/comments/3xr8zx/sbcl_working_with_commonqt_and_slime_environment/ has a (defmacro with-main-thread ...)
2016-02-25T19:29:49Z jurov: jackdaniel thanks, it worked
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2016-02-25T19:30:11Z jackdaniel: which one?
2016-02-25T19:30:15Z jackdaniel: (let …) or asdf?
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2016-02-25T19:30:20Z jurov: however i have used wxwidgets so prolly need to come up with  better example
2016-02-25T19:30:26Z jackdaniel: or builder
2016-02-25T19:31:17Z jurov: jackdaniel: (let ((compiler::*USER-CC-FLAGS* "....")(compiler::*USER-LD-FLAGS* "...")(compile-file "wxtest.lisp"))
2016-02-25T19:31:44Z jurov: and hen only (load "wxtest")
2016-02-25T19:32:08Z jackdaniel: OK, you don't have to prepare the example, I've noted it on my org file and will add it to the documentation examples
2016-02-25T19:32:23Z jurov: thank you very much!
2016-02-25T19:32:31Z jackdaniel:  sure thing :)
2016-02-25T19:32:39Z jackdaniel: glad I could help
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2016-02-25T19:36:09Z jurov: i want to add some scripting to a very gnarly c++ codebase and this is showing a light in the end of tunnel: https://chriskohlhepp.wordpress.com/embedding-lisp-in-cplusplus-a-recipe/
2016-02-25T19:36:15Z jurov: i much recommend
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2016-02-25T19:37:16Z jackdaniel: jurov: check also this proposal https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/195
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2016-02-25T19:39:42Z jackdaniel: it's not implemented yet, but sounds like a good idea
2016-02-25T19:43:20Z jurov: it depends on c++11? not sure it would fit here
2016-02-25T19:44:23Z jackdaniel: it's non-existant yet, so it depends on nothing :) but will probably depend on it. Idk, this is Denis M idea
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2016-02-25T20:04:51Z mitzelflick: I want to replace all the laptop servers san database java network etc with lisp on openbsd
2016-02-25T20:04:59Z mitzelflick: bam
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2016-02-25T20:10:08Z pjb: mitzelflick: understandable.
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2016-02-25T21:04:14Z prxq: what's the best way of setting *readtable*? I'm using oct, and I have to do (setf *readtable* oct::*oct-readtable*) before I can even compile my files.
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2016-02-25T21:04:55Z prxq: Any good way to do that from asdf? I tried having a file with (eval-when (<everything> (setf ...)) but it did not work.
2016-02-25T21:05:35Z prxq: Is there any way to tell asdf to fully compile and load a file before compiling the rest?
2016-02-25T21:05:38Z pjb: prxq: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (setf *readtable* oct::*oct-readtable*)) at the start of each file.
2016-02-25T21:05:47Z pjb: prxq: you may use a macro to abstract it.
2016-02-25T21:06:01Z pjb: prxq: I've heard about named-readtable, that might help, I don't know.
2016-02-25T21:06:27Z pjb: The key to your problem is: in EACH file.
2016-02-25T21:06:51Z pjb: load and compile-file are specified to do (let ((*package* *package*) (*readtable* *readtable*)) …)
2016-02-25T21:07:54Z pjb: prxq: the alternative is to mutate the *readtable* directly.  But it's rather untasty, and bound to give random results.
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2016-02-25T21:08:25Z prxq: mutate it directly is what I do. I want the readtable to be present in the repl anyway.
2016-02-25T21:10:08Z jackdaniel: prxq: there is very good library "named-readtables"
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2016-02-25T21:10:46Z jackdaniel: has similar api to syntax of defpackage, in-package etc
2016-02-25T21:11:18Z prxq: hm, I see.
2016-02-25T21:11:56Z prxq would prefer a way to just set the readtable globaly early on
2016-02-25T21:12:59Z jackdaniel: prxq: this package let's you doing: (in-readtable :my-readtable)
2016-02-25T21:13:15Z pjb: (setf *readtable* oct::*oct-readtable*) is no mutation.
2016-02-25T21:13:39Z pjb: (set-macro-character #\! 'exclaim nil *readtable*) is mutaiton.
2016-02-25T21:14:23Z prxq: i also load the infix package at some later point. And matlisp (which also messes with the readtables).
2016-02-25T21:14:29Z pjb: (setf (package-name *package*) "MY-OWN-PACKAGE-STEALING-*PACKAGE*") is mutation. (in-package "MY-OWN-PACKAGE-STEALING-*PACKAGE*") is no mutation.
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2016-02-25T21:15:45Z PuercoPop: prxq: matlisp uses named-readtables, so you can extend its readtable with your changes
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2016-02-25T21:16:47Z prxq: so i actually have to learn something new?
2016-02-25T21:16:51Z prxq: meh :-)
2016-02-25T21:17:01Z jackdaniel: I would expect excitement ;)
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2016-02-25T21:19:31Z jasom: prxq: eval-when at the top is the best way I think
2016-02-25T21:20:02Z pjb: the equivalent macro.
2016-02-25T21:20:29Z pjb: or rather, a system of composable macros.
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