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2015-12-28T02:47:12Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-12-28T02:47:23Z beach: p_l: Great!
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2015-12-28T03:33:33Z loke: Hello beachz0r
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2015-12-28T05:10:31Z beach: loke: I think I found the reason why you can't use Climacs.
2015-12-28T05:10:43Z loke: beach: What? Yay?
2015-12-28T05:10:54Z loke: Tell me
2015-12-28T05:11:17Z beach: Somehow, when I type C-x, it gets turned into a keyboard even equivalent to C-X (with a capital X).
2015-12-28T05:11:53Z beach: So when the keyboard event is compared to the gesture in the command table, they are not considered equal.
2015-12-28T05:12:22Z beach: This must be something that happens in certain X servers, and that has changed over time.
2015-12-28T05:12:38Z beach: s/keyboard even/keyboard event/
2015-12-28T05:12:55Z kazlock: Yesterday when we were talking about primep someone mentioned how to return a value from a loop
2015-12-28T05:13:02Z kazlock: how do you do that?
2015-12-28T05:13:28Z beach: kazlock: return <form>
2015-12-28T05:14:03Z beach: (loop for i from 0 when (> i 100) return i)
2015-12-28T05:15:31Z kazlock: beach: I have something like this - (loop repeat n (do-some-stuff) (<return this form at the end of the loop>))
2015-12-28T05:15:48Z kazlock: I'm trying to figure out how to do this
2015-12-28T05:16:01Z beach: After looping is done?
2015-12-28T05:16:25Z kazlock: beach: yes. I want the loop form to evaluate to <...>
2015-12-28T05:16:40Z beach: (loop repeat 10 do (print "hello") finally (return "bla"))
2015-12-28T05:17:14Z kazlock:  beach: tyvm
2015-12-28T05:17:48Z beach: kazlock: I suggest you define tyvm as a global abbrev in Emacs that turns it into "thank you very much".
2015-12-28T05:18:14Z kazlock: beach: you can have irc in emacs? I shouldn't be suprised
2015-12-28T05:18:31Z beach: Of course.  M-x erc-select<RET>
2015-12-28T05:18:52Z beach: That way you can have your abbrevs, your spell checker, your keyboard macros, etc.
2015-12-28T05:23:41Z kazlock: is there any reason this shouldn't work? (let ((a 1)) ((b 1)) (list a b))
2015-12-28T05:24:12Z beach: Only one list of bindings in a LET  (let ((a 1) (b 1)) (list a b))
2015-12-28T05:24:43Z kazlock: oooh I see now
2015-12-28T05:24:45Z beach: Your form says, bind a to 1, then evaluate the form ((b 1)) which is an invalid form in Common Lisp.
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2015-12-28T05:38:32Z kazlock: I'm very happy with this https://bpaste.net/show/e84e8026ae99
2015-12-28T05:40:13Z kazlock: no longer exponential
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2015-12-28T05:54:18Z |3b|: kazlock: in that case you could just put A after the loop to return A from the function
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2015-12-28T05:54:53Z |3b|: (doesn't really affect anything aside from amount of typing though)
2015-12-28T05:55:16Z beach: kazlock: Your indentation is wrong.
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2015-12-28T05:55:49Z kazlock: beach: what about it is wrong?
2015-12-28T05:55:54Z beach: kazlock: The line that starts with (loop should be aligned under the `e' in (let.
2015-12-28T05:56:07Z |3b| would say "confusing" rather than "wrong", but otherwise agrees
2015-12-28T05:56:33Z beach: If you just type C-i (or TAB) on the line with (loop..., Emacs/SLIME will fix it for you.
2015-12-28T05:56:34Z |3b| would also put a newline between the (a 0) and (b 1) in the let, and put the newline before DO instead of after in LOOP
2015-12-28T05:56:48Z beach: Indeed.
2015-12-28T05:57:03Z beach: `do' should be the start of a line.
2015-12-28T05:57:26Z beach: and it should be aligned as `repeat'.
2015-12-28T05:58:18Z kazlock: Oh that makes more sense, I see
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2015-12-28T06:02:02Z kazlock: fibv2 https://bpaste.net/show/c8cfa71a1c54
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2015-12-28T06:02:37Z kazlock: ty for helping me understand conventions and stuff
2015-12-28T06:02:42Z beach: The `do' and the `repeat' should be indented the same.
2015-12-28T06:02:59Z beach: And there should be no newline after `do'.
2015-12-28T06:03:14Z beach: Are you using Emacs and SLIM?
2015-12-28T06:03:20Z beach: SLIME
2015-12-28T06:04:00Z kazlock: beach: yes. That is how emacs tabbed it
2015-12-28T06:04:24Z beach: Then your SLIME indentation is not set up right.
2015-12-28T06:04:54Z kazlock: oh, dang
2015-12-28T06:05:08Z pjb: kazlock: and configure also an abbrev for ty -> thank you
2015-12-28T06:05:13Z beach: You need to do (slime-setup '(slime-fancy ... slime-indentation)) in your .emacs
2015-12-28T06:05:16Z beach: I have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-tramp slime-asdf slime-indentation))
2015-12-28T06:05:39Z |3b|: how i would format it: http://paste.lisp.org/+6INN
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2015-12-28T06:06:34Z |3b|: there is a bit of a convention to write argument names as ALL-CAPS in docstrings, though it isn't really obvious in that case
2015-12-28T06:07:39Z |3b|: both due to symbol names usually being all uppercase, and to make them stand out more
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2015-12-28T06:10:15Z kazlock: beach: Ty, i have slime-indentation and slime-fancy now. What does slime-fancy do?
2015-12-28T06:10:34Z beach: I don't remember.
2015-12-28T06:10:36Z kazlock: |3b| that makes sense, I will do that from now on
2015-12-28T06:10:59Z kazlock: |3b|: You always put let variables on their own line?
2015-12-28T06:11:10Z |3b|: slime-fancy loads a bunch of commonly used options, don't remember the specific ones
2015-12-28T06:11:13Z |3b|: yes
2015-12-28T06:11:30Z |3b|: easier to find them without reading the context that way
2015-12-28T06:11:50Z H4ns: if i need variables that are only used within a loop, i use a WITH clause rather than LET.
2015-12-28T06:12:21Z |3b| would have just used FOR for the whole logic of that loop
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2015-12-28T06:14:10Z kazlock: |3b|: how would you use FOR?
2015-12-28T06:14:45Z |3b|: hmm, maybe it actually would be more annoying than i thought
2015-12-28T06:15:19Z beach: It's tricky, yes.
2015-12-28T06:15:20Z |3b|: and i guess in reality i'd probably just go look up the formula rather than looping at all :p
2015-12-28T06:16:08Z kazlock: oh cool, I never knew there was a formula
2015-12-28T06:16:59Z H4ns: my point was that if one uses loop, one can as well use it completely rather than mixing it with "standard" lisp constructs as that is usually clearer.
2015-12-28T06:17:25Z beach: kazlock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number#Closed-form_expression
2015-12-28T06:17:32Z kazlock: H4ns: is WITH a loop construct?
2015-12-28T06:17:54Z Bicyclidine: imo http://fare.tunes.org/files/fun/fibonacci.lisp
2015-12-28T06:18:17Z beach: kazlock: It is a type of LOOP clause, yes.
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2015-12-28T06:18:46Z H4ns: kazlock: yes.  instead of using LET, you can use (LOOP WITH A = 0 WITH B = 1 ...)
2015-12-28T06:18:51Z Bicyclidine: though the advice on installing memoization stuff is out of date. such is life
2015-12-28T06:19:01Z H4ns: paste.lisp.org is broken?!
2015-12-28T06:19:56Z |3b|: H4ns: possibly for just some people? someone else mentioned that earlier, but works here
2015-12-28T06:19:57Z H4ns: kazlock: you will nee to use FINALLY (RETURN ...) in that case, though, because your variables are only in the scope of the loop.
2015-12-28T06:20:20Z H4ns: |3b|: i've just tried pulling up the paste from earlier and got something else
2015-12-28T06:20:45Z |3b|: ah, true... getting spam for that
2015-12-28T06:21:32Z kazlock: H4ns: Is it a personal preference whether to use caps for names?
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2015-12-28T06:22:06Z H4ns: kazlock: no, i use lower case in code, caps only when talking about things to distinguish lisp symbols from "prose"
2015-12-28T06:22:08Z |3b|: kazlock: similar to all caps in docstrings, we tend to use all caps for code in IRC chat, though type it normally in actual code
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2015-12-28T06:22:27Z kazlock: ah, i see
2015-12-28T06:24:15Z |3b|: H4ns: ah, it seems to always paste to the same number :/
2015-12-28T06:24:23Z |3b|: paste.lisp.org i mean
2015-12-28T06:24:28Z H4ns: /o\
2015-12-28T06:24:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: "<beach> kazlock: Your indentation is wrong." I'm using this wording from now on.
2015-12-28T06:25:27Z kazlock: H4ns: much better now http://paste.lisp.org/display/304115
2015-12-28T06:25:36Z |3b|: list of pastes seems to have disappeared too, though that could have been intentional, to get rid of links to spam
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2015-12-28T06:26:25Z H4ns: kazlock: looks like a pro LOOP to me :)
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2015-12-28T06:26:40Z kazlock: H4ns: its feels very satisfying
2015-12-28T06:28:32Z |3b|: kazlock: using FOR: (loop for a = 0 then b and b = 1 then (+ a b) repeat n finally (return a)) or something like that
2015-12-28T06:31:06Z |3b|: though i'm not sure being slightly shorter is worth the extra complexity of relying on AND
2015-12-28T06:31:43Z kazlock: Having support for "=" assignment doesn't make LOOP unlispy?
2015-12-28T06:31:46Z |3b|: (which is like FOR, but happens before the FOR update takes effect, so sees the old value of A)
2015-12-28T06:32:07Z |3b|: that is an argument that hasn't been resolved in decades, so probably never will :p
2015-12-28T06:32:12Z H4ns: kazlock: = is used only for initialization.
2015-12-28T06:32:30Z |3b|: CL doesn't object to imperative code though, if that's what you are asking
2015-12-28T06:32:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: Is there a way to remove a package?
2015-12-28T06:32:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: Without restarting my lisp?
2015-12-28T06:33:07Z Bicyclidine: delete-package?
2015-12-28T06:33:20Z kazlock: its almost as if you can use macros to write an entirely new language
2015-12-28T06:33:26Z |3b|: some people feel the lack of () makes LOOP "unlispy", others feel that LOOP is a great example of the "lispy"ness of using a macro to express a special purpose DSL
2015-12-28T06:33:36Z |3b|: not just "almost"
2015-12-28T06:33:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, that did it. Thanks.
2015-12-28T06:34:20Z |3b|: you the whole power of the turing-complete CL language available for implementing macros, so they can do anything any turing complete language can do, including implement any other turing complete language
2015-12-28T06:34:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: I just needed to go up a level in the hyperspec to see it. :/
2015-12-28T06:35:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: |3b|: ...without having to write a parser/compiler several times
2015-12-28T06:35:07Z |3b|: only limitation is that they happen after the text of the program is READ and converted to symbols,lists,etc so you are limited to the surface syntax of CL (but there are reader macros to configure that part too)
2015-12-28T06:36:03Z kazlock: |3b| ah Church's thesis
2015-12-28T06:36:09Z |3b|: right, that limitation is one of the things that makes CL macros much more convenient than C macros, or adding DSLs to other languages without similar extension facilities
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2015-12-28T07:37:02Z kazlock: I made an autocomplete directive in angular awhile back, it would've been way easier if I could've used lisp http://paste.lisp.org/display/304115
2015-12-28T07:37:50Z |3b|: kazlock: don't use paste.lisp.org for the moment, it seems to be broken :(
2015-12-28T07:39:18Z kazlock: |3b|: oh weird. https://bpaste.net/show/f9390db11b49
2015-12-28T07:41:36Z kazlock: wow that is an interesting paste my lisp.org link went to
2015-12-28T07:41:49Z kazlock: O_o
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2015-12-28T07:43:35Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-12-28T07:44:09Z kazlock: good morning kami. Or rather evening for me
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2015-12-28T07:54:11Z loke: kazlock: I've been using Clojurescript for browser-side programming. It's kind of nice
2015-12-28T07:54:18Z loke: Would be nicer if it was CL, of course.
2015-12-28T07:54:49Z loke: kazlock: You know about REMOVE-IF-NOT, right?
2015-12-28T07:55:14Z kazlock: loke: I read that remove-if-not is depracated on a stackoverflow post
2015-12-28T07:55:34Z loke: kazlock: Umm, the hyperspec made a mistake, and trust me, it wil;l never be removed.
2015-12-28T07:55:59Z kazlock: oh, awesome then
2015-12-28T07:55:59Z loke: It's not like a new spec is ever going to be made any way. And trust me again, if it was, they wouldn't remove REMOVE-IF-NOT
2015-12-28T07:56:42Z kazlock: (defun HYPERSPEC (REMOVE-IF-NOT 'REMOVE-IF-NOT))
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2015-12-28T09:39:34Z moore33: So... explicitly specify dependencies in the :components of an asdf declaration, or use :serial t and be done with it?
2015-12-28T09:39:43Z moore33: discuss :)
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2015-12-28T09:41:34Z oleo__: :serial t whilst developing and :components after the project is ripe ?
2015-12-28T09:41:52Z oleo__: i'd assume so.....
2015-12-28T09:42:29Z oleo__: quick and dirty vs. full-spec......
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2015-12-28T09:43:27Z moore33: I guess the ideal would be that most files would depend on only a few files... the package definition, certainly. Then there's the question of whether to put most (if not all) defgeneric forms for protocols in a couple of files, instead of scattering them all over the place.
2015-12-28T09:43:29Z z0d: I don't mind :serial t, when the project is simple
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2015-12-28T09:45:58Z dim: when the project is complex, you have subcomponents anyway, right?
2015-12-28T09:46:13Z dim: so you can manage :serial t in small and simple compoments, and then have inter-components dependencies
2015-12-28T09:46:38Z moore33: good point.
2015-12-28T09:46:39Z moore33: bbl
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2015-12-28T09:46:59Z dim: also, in complex project I've been trying to separate things in separate packages (from advice I got here), and it helps figuring out explicit dependencies too
2015-12-28T09:47:41Z dim: well it's quite intense to maintain (import/export the symbols in packages that need them) but it still looks like it's worth it
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2015-12-28T15:32:41Z kami: I'm writing a lib which uses cffi and wonder how to keep track of different versions of the bindings for different shared lib versions.
2015-12-28T15:33:00Z kami: Is there a recipe for dynamically loading the correct version of the bindings?
2015-12-28T15:33:41Z kami: My lib has constants for the major, minor, and patch version of the lib.
2015-12-28T15:33:54Z LiamH: kami: That should work
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2015-12-28T15:35:46Z LiamH: kami: Look at https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/antik/gsll/blob/master/init/interface.lisp#L131 for what I did with GSL.
2015-12-28T15:38:48Z kami: LiamH: I see. Thanks.
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2015-12-28T15:39:22Z harper: What is the best way to start learning lisp
2015-12-28T15:40:30Z synchromesh: harper: You could do worse than to start with Peter Siebel's book Practical Common Lisp (http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/), particularly if you already have a little programming experience.
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2015-12-28T15:45:11Z kami: LiamH: I just realised that the version numbers are just #defines in header files!
2015-12-28T15:45:41Z kami: And the lib doesn't contain any symbols which indicate the build version.
2015-12-28T15:46:10Z LiamH: kami: even easier then
2015-12-28T15:46:44Z kami: LiamH: why easier? I don't have a way of finding out the library version.
2015-12-28T15:47:13Z LiamH: cffi-grovel will pull that out for you
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2015-12-28T15:59:30Z kami: LiamH: ah. Thanks.
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2015-12-28T16:00:39Z kami: LiamH: the (include "..h") statements define all C functions which are defined in those header files?
2015-12-28T16:01:20Z kami: Or do you write additional defcfun statements for that?
2015-12-28T16:01:26Z LiamH: No, you still have to write your own defcfun I think.
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2015-12-28T16:05:21Z Lisper: Hello, anyone there?
2015-12-28T16:05:28Z kami: LiamH: so I probably have to use (constant (major-version "MAJOR_VERSION")) if that is the name of my #define
2015-12-28T16:05:42Z kami: Hello Lisper
2015-12-28T16:06:58Z mordocai: No one is here Lisper. We are just the ghosts of the irc network.
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2015-12-28T16:07:51Z Lisper: Kami, i need an excellent implementation for common lisp, free for commerical.
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2015-12-28T16:08:14Z synchromesh: Lisper: Which platform(s)?
2015-12-28T16:08:14Z mordocai: Lisper: sbcl, ccl
2015-12-28T16:08:38Z Lisper: Microsoft Windows
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2015-12-28T16:09:00Z Xach: Lisper: how do you measure excellence?
2015-12-28T16:09:11Z synchromesh: Lisper: That narrows it down... Clozure Common Lisp is probably your best bet.
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2015-12-28T16:10:38Z synchromesh: Lisper: Although if you're making money off it, I'd suggest considering paying for LispWorks Professional. That's what I did. It's a great product IMHO.
2015-12-28T16:11:33Z mordocai: Noooo support open source (says the fsf cloaked person)
2015-12-28T16:11:39Z Lisper: How much is the Price?
2015-12-28T16:11:43Z mordocai: free software* (stupid habit)
2015-12-28T16:12:02Z Lisper: Not the free edition
2015-12-28T16:12:16Z Lisper: i mean the personal edition
2015-12-28T16:13:02Z synchromesh: The prices are on their website. It's not cheap.
2015-12-28T16:14:26Z Lisper: Some LISP developers uses EMACS + SLIME, What are these?
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2015-12-28T16:15:08Z fsmunoz: Lisper: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
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2015-12-28T16:15:42Z fsmunoz: SLIME is the Lisp mode that is used with Emacs, https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/
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2015-12-28T16:16:19Z mordocai: SLIME is also awesome
2015-12-28T16:16:23Z Lisper: But EMACS is not Common LISP
2015-12-28T16:16:23Z mordocai: Don't forget that
2015-12-28T16:16:43Z H4ns: Lisper: why do you want to use lisp?
2015-12-28T16:16:54Z Xach: synchromesh: cheap is so relative, though.
2015-12-28T16:17:09Z fsmunoz: Lisper: indeed it isn't
2015-12-28T16:18:10Z LiamH: kami: Sounds good.
2015-12-28T16:18:27Z Lisper: I am a Common LISP programmer, not EMACS Lisp
2015-12-28T16:18:51Z H4ns: Lisper: what lisp do you use?
2015-12-28T16:19:34Z fsmunoz: Lisper: SLIME is for Common LISP, not for Emacs Lisp.
2015-12-28T16:19:48Z Lisper: H4ns: the common LISP dialect
2015-12-28T16:19:48Z fsmunoz: could interest someone here as well, http://abcl-bluemix.eu-gb.mybluemix.net/ - a simple "Hello World" using ABCL, running on Java on top of IBM's Bluemix (Cloud Froundry like PaaS infrastructure)
2015-12-28T16:20:07Z H4ns: Lisper: yes. what implementation do you use?
2015-12-28T16:21:01Z fsmunoz: An experiment more than anything, still interesting to me in terms of Java interop (and in tandem with Clojure which really nails it there).
2015-12-28T16:21:03Z Lisper: CCL
2015-12-28T16:21:14Z Lisper: H4ns: CCL
2015-12-28T16:21:34Z H4ns: Lisper: good, then you're all set with an excellent implementation that you can use commercially.
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2015-12-28T16:21:49Z mordocai: Lisper: AFAIK the majority of common lisp developers use Emacs + Slime for their work btw. not sure how well that works on windows, but I think it works fine.
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2015-12-28T16:23:30Z Lisper: H4ns, mordocai: what is EMACS + SLIME? and what is the different between EMACS and Common LISP Dialects?
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2015-12-28T16:23:52Z mordocai: Lisper: fsmunoz linked to emacs and slime above.
2015-12-28T16:23:53Z H4ns: Lisper: emacs is an editor, slime is an ide for common lisp based on emacs.
2015-12-28T16:24:02Z attila_lendvai: luis`: it'd be nice if you could take a look at this and give some feedback on what you're opposing in principle... https://github.com/attila-lendvai/cffi/commits/c2ffi
2015-12-28T16:24:15Z kogan: I just started using lisp does anyone know where the {} go
2015-12-28T16:24:25Z H4ns: Lisper: please use the links supplied to get an overview.  you're welcome to ask specific questions then.
2015-12-28T16:25:05Z synchromesh: Xach: Cheap is indeed relative, LW is spendy compared to the OSS alternatives but pretty affordable (for me) compared to ACL, and compared to the budget for the project (which had to run on Windows).
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2015-12-28T16:27:05Z kazlock: Does lisp have constant expressions?
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2015-12-28T16:27:48Z kazlock: Ex: a fibonacci function needs (isqrt 5) and I don't want to compute it every time
2015-12-28T16:28:25Z H4ns: kazlock: memoization can help with that.
2015-12-28T16:29:18Z kazlock: H4ns: that seems over the top for a single expression, no?
2015-12-28T16:29:41Z mordocai: kazlock: Pretty easy to do though http://malisper.me/2015/11/10/defmemo/
2015-12-28T16:29:49Z H4ns: kazlock: you can also use read-time evaluation in some cases, e.g. #.(isqrt 5)
2015-12-28T16:29:54Z reb``: kazlock: A good compiler will replace (isqrt 5) with 2.
2015-12-28T16:30:21Z Lisper: H4ns: Why C++ and JAVA are much more used for commerical software than Common LISP? Common LISP got OOP, Multi-Paradigms and all other stuffs to create any general purpose apps.
2015-12-28T16:30:38Z kazlock: Oh i mean sqrt by the way. Idk why I put isqrt
2015-12-28T16:31:05Z kazlock: cool this is a nice oppurtunity to learn about memoization in lisp
2015-12-28T16:31:08Z H4ns: kazlock: same idea for sqrt
2015-12-28T16:31:09Z kogan: C++ is the fastest language you can use
2015-12-28T16:31:24Z H4ns: kogan: your beliefs are off-topic :)
2015-12-28T16:31:50Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2015-12-28T16:32:19Z myrkraverk: Correction: machine language is the "fastest" language you can use.
2015-12-28T16:32:33Z Lisper: Kogan: What do you mean by 'Fastest'? Compiling?
2015-12-28T16:32:47Z kogan: you would be dead before you could debug the code
2015-12-28T16:34:06Z myrkraverk: kogan: C++ is not automatically faster than anything else, you have to have a specific use case with heavily tweaked programs for a fair benchmark.  With real-world data.
2015-12-28T16:34:54Z Lisper: Ok, let say C++ faster, but what else?
2015-12-28T16:35:01Z kogan: Java
2015-12-28T16:35:10Z H4ns: can you take that discussion elsewhere please?
2015-12-28T16:35:48Z mordocai: H4ns: The original question is pretty on topic IMO. "Why is Common Lisp not used more in the industry?"
2015-12-28T16:36:22Z Lisper: What? Topic IMO? where?
2015-12-28T16:36:50Z myrkraverk: mordocai: I guess for the same reason anything else isn't used more: lack of knowledge.
2015-12-28T16:36:58Z mordocai: Lisper: IMO = in my opinion.
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2015-12-28T16:39:10Z Lisper: Sorry H4ns but did you talk to me when you typed 'can you take that discussion elsewhere please?'
2015-12-28T16:40:34Z H4ns: Lisper: i was talking to anyone who wanted to continue discussing "c++ is fastests".  but anyway, you can also ignore me, i was just expressing my preference.
2015-12-28T16:42:30Z dwchandler: Lisper: discussion here should be directly related to common lisp. when side discussions get too far away then it's encouraged to discuss somewhere else
2015-12-28T16:43:22Z dwchandler: Oh, and hello everyone :)
2015-12-28T16:43:25Z myrkraverk: Several years ago, I was comparing some code in SBCL with the equivalent C++.  C++ was "faster" by one or two machine instructions.
2015-12-28T16:43:38Z prxq: Lisper: one reason it is not used more often is that a lot of people find the large number of parentheses gross.
2015-12-28T16:43:52Z prxq: as you can imagine, there is little one can do about that.
2015-12-28T16:43:57Z myrkraverk: I don't remember what the code was, though.  And depending on use-case, those two instructions might not be an issue.
2015-12-28T16:44:51Z Lisper: Dwchandler: what is the name of Common LISP IRC channel?
2015-12-28T16:45:15Z myrkraverk: prxq: there's that.  Yet.there( is.a->lot( of->code( that ), looks->like.this() );
2015-12-28T16:46:15Z dwchandler: Lisper: this is the common lisp channel. You are fine here, as long as we talk about CL :)
2015-12-28T16:46:22Z kogan: (for (i (span 1 10)))
2015-12-28T16:46:25Z prxq: myrkraverk: you are right, of course. And(code,where(stuff,ends(up(looking(like(this,anyway))))))).
2015-12-28T16:46:35Z H4ns: I think the main reason why C, C++, C# and Java are dominant is that when personal computing really took off in the 1990ies, C was the most viable higher-level language.  Many people considered C to be VERY ugly back then, but they got used to it eventually.
2015-12-28T16:46:43Z myrkraverk: I now have to have a vomit bag around, whenever I need to look at long lines in Java.
2015-12-28T16:47:12Z kogan: C become popular becuase of unix
2015-12-28T16:47:30Z H4ns: People who complain about the parentheses for more than a minute or two cannot be taken seriously as engineers.  Such people still have a say, though.  That is why we cannot have good things.
2015-12-28T16:47:31Z synchromesh: H4ns: We were much more constrained in terms of RAM, CPU etc. so garbage collection was too expensive.
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2015-12-28T16:47:36Z prxq: H4ns: right. also, C was the only thing in town back then for a lot of things, so lots of people did C.
2015-12-28T16:47:43Z myrkraverk: H4ns: and now most new programmers start with something of the C family, like Java or JavaScript.  So they learn the ugly bits as normal.
2015-12-28T16:47:46Z H4ns: synchromesh: Of course.  That is the "viable" part.
2015-12-28T16:47:48Z Lisper: Yes kogan, that is very right
2015-12-28T16:49:15Z fsmunoz: Well, without wanting to open that can of works, Clojure maintains the parens and is at least _relatively_ popular, so it's not just that I suppose.
2015-12-28T16:49:31Z myrkraverk: For the record, I have not come across a language I don't hate after doing a non-trivial project with it.
2015-12-28T16:49:59Z H4ns: myrkraverk: maybe you're not so much of a programmer after all? :)
2015-12-28T16:50:14Z Lisper: Farewell people
2015-12-28T16:50:25Z beach joined #lisp
2015-12-28T16:50:28Z fsmunoz: bye
2015-12-28T16:50:31Z Lisper left #lisp
2015-12-28T16:50:40Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-12-28T16:50:41Z myrkraverk: H4ns: I've never claimed to be a "programmer" - I'm just damn good at it.
2015-12-28T16:51:17Z synchromesh: Good evening beach!
2015-12-28T16:51:30Z kogan: java is very popular because of android
2015-12-28T16:51:41Z myrkraverk: It was popular before android.
2015-12-28T16:51:53Z prxq: quite
2015-12-28T16:51:57Z kogan: android made is soar
2015-12-28T16:52:11Z mordocai: A lot of clojure's success can be attributed to it being on the jvm as well I think.
2015-12-28T16:52:59Z prxq: mordocai: also, it has more syntax than cl. I think people like [playing litte $tricks <for some reason>] (not emulating any clojure here)
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2015-12-28T16:53:11Z beach: Is it OK if I say something about Common Lisp?
2015-12-28T16:53:18Z H4ns: beach: do
2015-12-28T16:53:25Z mordocai: The convo started as why is common lisp not used more :P
2015-12-28T16:53:29Z myrkraverk: On the other hand, since it's on the JVM, I'm not touching Clojure.
2015-12-28T16:53:49Z mordocai wonders if Lisper was just trying to stir the pot.
2015-12-28T16:54:03Z kogan: there's haskell
2015-12-28T16:54:19Z myrkraverk: Does haskell have anything like quicklisp?
2015-12-28T16:54:34Z prxq: who cares?
2015-12-28T16:54:39Z myrkraverk: That, and SBCL's --script is why I'm using CL.
2015-12-28T16:54:49Z H4ns: i think there is a whole dedicated channel full of competent people to answer that and other questions about haskell
2015-12-28T16:55:09Z myrkraverk: Point c;
2015-12-28T16:55:32Z XachX: myrkraverk: I think hackage is like quicklisp.
2015-12-28T16:55:32Z myrkraverk: There are haskell fanatics at $work, but so far I've not had reason enough to use it myself.
2015-12-28T16:55:33Z beach: I spent most of my day being confused because my tools were lying to me.  But eventually, I found out the reason why loke (and me) are having problems with ESA-based applications.  ESA is Emacs-Style Application and it is part of McCLIM.  As it turns out, the CLX backend of McCLIM doesn't handle remapped keyboards very well.
2015-12-28T16:55:46Z myrkraverk: XachX: that's nice.
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2015-12-28T16:56:39Z zaquest: myrkraverk, stack, cabal-install. XachX, hackage is a dumpster of packages, just a hosting afaik.
2015-12-28T16:56:48Z XachX: Ok
2015-12-28T16:56:49Z beach: I turn my caps lock into another control key, and as a result, any control key will create a key-press-event with an uppercase letter in the current CLX backend.
2015-12-28T16:57:42Z beach: I am not *quite* sure why this happens, but I suspect it has to do with gilberth's modifier cache in CLX ports.
2015-12-28T16:58:23Z fsmunoz: mordocai: this is likely OT here but in any event, and while I prefer CL, Clojure has some nice things apart from the JVM integration stuff - but the Java interop is indeed very well done. Partially this is why I am also using ABCL.
2015-12-28T16:58:26Z beach: So here is a question: Is it really worthwhile to try to minimize traffic between an X11 server and a client, if we are talking about doing so for events that occur at typing speed?
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2015-12-28T16:59:28Z beach: I am thinking of simplifying the CLX backend for McCLIM by ripping out this caching code and other things that make it more complicated than I think it needs to be.
2015-12-28T16:59:37Z H4ns: beach: an optimization that breaks functionality is just wrong.  i'd try without it and then optimize when there is an actual problem.
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2015-12-28T16:59:47Z mordocai: beach: Theoretically yes if you are connecting via x forwarding. For local use I would think no. Agree with H4ns though.
2015-12-28T17:00:19Z beach: H4ns: Yeah.  Better get it right first, and then, should performance be a problem, consider a correct solution.
2015-12-28T17:01:19Z beach: mordocai: What do you mean by "x forwarding"?  Sorry, networking is not one of my strong topics.
2015-12-28T17:01:41Z myrkraverk: beach: it's possible for a program to run on one computer, and display the X parts on another.
2015-12-28T17:01:49Z myrkraverk: I've done this over the atlantic ocean.
2015-12-28T17:01:51Z beach: I know that.
2015-12-28T17:02:01Z beach: Is that what "x forwarding" means?
2015-12-28T17:02:17Z myrkraverk: X forwarding is more likely referring to the feature of SSH.
2015-12-28T17:03:00Z mordocai: Yeah, which is how I usually do the above
2015-12-28T17:03:12Z beach: OK, anyway, even with a network connection in between the server and the client, I would think it would have to be a very slow network in order for such an optimization to make sense at typing speed.
2015-12-28T17:03:34Z beach: I haven't actually done the calculation, but my gut feeling tells me this.
2015-12-28T17:03:51Z H4ns: beach: kill it.  every single bug eliminated from mcclim is good for mankind.  really.
2015-12-28T17:04:02Z myrkraverk: beach: I guess.  And when the person doing X forwarding over an ocean complains, it's possible to reinstate the caching.
2015-12-28T17:04:09Z mordocai: beach: Yeah, either way i'm definitely with H4ns.
2015-12-28T17:04:29Z beach: Thanks everyone for reassuring me.
2015-12-28T17:04:44Z beach: Now I just need to figure out how to do it.
2015-12-28T17:04:45Z H4ns: sheesh, x forwarding.  don't people use vnc for such things nowadays?
2015-12-28T17:05:25Z beach: Even so, how big is an X event?  64 bytes or so?
2015-12-28T17:05:26Z myrkraverk: VNC also has different use-cases.
2015-12-28T17:05:31Z fsmunoz: I find X forwarding useless with most modern toolkits, redraws are painfully slow.
2015-12-28T17:05:39Z fsmunoz: Even in an intranet
2015-12-28T17:05:50Z beach: That is very unfortunate.
2015-12-28T17:06:14Z myrkraverk: Yeah.  It's been ten years since I habitually used clients on different machines, so I don't know how it is today.
2015-12-28T17:06:30Z mordocai: Yeah, last time I used x forwarding it was very slow but I was able to do what I needed.
2015-12-28T17:07:18Z beach: Anyway, 64 bytes at typing speed is at most around 3kbits/s.
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2015-12-28T17:07:46Z beach: So my gut feeling is that quite a few X messages can be sent per keystroke, even across the Atlantic.
2015-12-28T17:07:58Z myrkraverk: Yeah.
2015-12-28T17:08:32Z myrkraverk: It can be an issue in a 3rd world country, but anyone doing remote X is going to have to be patient there anyway.
2015-12-28T17:08:50Z beach: And they won't be using McCLIM anyway.
2015-12-28T17:08:59Z myrkraverk: Probably not.
2015-12-28T17:09:01Z H4ns: YET
2015-12-28T17:09:18Z beach: By the time they do, the network will be faster. :)
2015-12-28T17:09:24Z myrkraverk: Let's hope.
2015-12-28T17:09:45Z beach: OK, I'll try to figure out a way to rip that thing out and replace it with something simpler.
2015-12-28T17:10:05Z beach: I already did something similar for CLIM3/CLIMatis, so it shouldn't be too hard.
2015-12-28T17:10:42Z beach: The reason this took all day was that my tools were lying to me.
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2015-12-28T17:10:53Z mordocai: Sounds like tools
2015-12-28T17:10:54Z moore33: I tried to do some remote X work a couple of years ago. Emacs via X was not usable. Clim and remote slime was barely tolerable.
2015-12-28T17:10:55Z beach: I asked to trace a function, and no trace output showed up.
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2015-12-28T17:11:22Z beach: Many hours later, I noticed it was in *inferior-lisp*.
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2015-12-28T17:12:10Z beach: moore33: I haven't tried McCLIM, but I know that Emacs is not usable.
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2015-12-28T17:12:16Z beach: Very unfortunate as well.
2015-12-28T17:12:44Z moore33: This was real clim and McClim
2015-12-28T17:12:54Z beach: Both?
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2015-12-28T17:13:35Z moore33: Not at the same time :)
2015-12-28T17:13:55Z beach: Sure.  Both were "barely tolerable"?
2015-12-28T17:14:07Z moore33: Yes.
2015-12-28T17:14:09Z mordocai: beach: Btw did I hear you or someone else talking about work on climacs? If so, is the repo publically available? Looks like https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/climacs/climacs is dead.
2015-12-28T17:15:30Z beach: mordocai: At this point, it is probably best to wait for Second Climacs.  I am working on a better buffer representation, a much better Common Lisp parser, etc.
2015-12-28T17:16:15Z beach: mordocai: Originally, my idea was to use CLIM3/CLIMatis for the GUI, but now I am thinking of also putting a McCLIM GUI on it, hence my recent work on McCLIM and ESA.
2015-12-28T17:16:16Z beach:  
2015-12-28T17:16:23Z mordocai: beach: Ah, that's what I saw you talking about. Second climacs.
2015-12-28T17:16:44Z mordocai: beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs ?
2015-12-28T17:16:50Z beach: Yeah.
2015-12-28T17:17:13Z beach: I think Athas broke Climacs by trying to optimize redisplay in a way that was too agressive.
2015-12-28T17:17:18Z beach: aggressive
2015-12-28T17:17:20Z moore33: Biab
2015-12-28T17:17:57Z mordocai: beach: I assume btw it is completely out of the question to make some emulation layer for second climacs that makes emacs packages work? Seems way too hard but would be soooo nice as far as boosting adoption.
2015-12-28T17:18:54Z fsmunoz: Emacs itself tackled that with the guile branch.
2015-12-28T17:18:57Z beach: mordocai: I really haven't given it any thought.  I guess I don't think of adoption as being the highest priority.  Maybe someone else can give it some thought.
2015-12-28T17:19:06Z myrkraverk: mordocai: there was an emulation layer, that at one time was able to run gnus.
2015-12-28T17:19:23Z myrkraverk: At least, there was a rumor of an emulation layer that at one time ran gnus.
2015-12-28T17:19:45Z myrkraverk: I wasn't using CL nor CLIM when I read it, so I wasn't really interested.
2015-12-28T17:20:16Z mordocai: beach: Yeah, my only thought there is adoption = mindshare = more developers on the project.
2015-12-28T17:20:26Z beach: Sure.
2015-12-28T17:21:00Z beach: Though, I am going to be a lot more conservative with additional developers than I have been in the past.
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2015-12-28T17:21:08Z mordocai: And I can't live without magit.
2015-12-28T17:22:36Z beach: With McCLIM, I basically invited anyone to contribute, and it made sense to me at the time.  It was probably the right decision at the time, because it made McCLIM possible at all.  But the code is pretty messy as a result.  And I think I will try to avoid that in the future.
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2015-12-28T17:23:51Z mordocai: Makes sense to me.
2015-12-28T17:24:19Z beach: mordocai: The bet, as always, is that the result will be so easy to extend that you and perhaps a few others could get together and whip up a magit equivalent in no time at all.
2015-12-28T17:24:37Z prxq: beach: sometimes the choice is between messy code and no code :-/
2015-12-28T17:24:39Z mordocai: I like the idea of mandatory pull requests anyway (for code review) which is basically what making only yourself an actual contributor does.
2015-12-28T17:24:55Z beach: prxq: Yes, that's what I meant by the McCLIM experience.
2015-12-28T17:25:08Z shka: hi all
2015-12-28T17:25:09Z mordocai: beach: Yeah, getting basic magit-like use via git command line should be theoretically fairly easy. Getting feature parity would be harder.
2015-12-28T17:25:39Z mordocai: shka: hello!
2015-12-28T17:25:46Z dwchandler: mordocai: yes to PR/reviews, IMO
2015-12-28T17:26:45Z mordocai: I'm not sure if there is a way to mandate code reviews but still have multiple contributors currently with github/bitbucket/gitlab. There should be.
2015-12-28T17:27:37Z dwchandler: well, you can have a core group of people you trust as actual contributors, and then accept PRs from anyone
2015-12-28T17:28:26Z mordocai: dwchandler: Yeah, my thing is I don't trust anyone (even myself) to write good code the first time. Ideal for me would be basically remote git hooks that only allow pull request merge commits to master, no direct pushes.
2015-12-28T17:28:53Z dwchandler: But do you trust people to follow the code review rule?
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2015-12-28T17:29:01Z dwchandler: That's sufficient
2015-12-28T17:29:37Z mordocai: Yeah, i'm paranoid but i'd probably grow to trust people. Note that I haven't actually run any open source projects (yet), only business projects.
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2015-12-28T17:30:40Z dwchandler: Then only have yourself as an actual contributor, and make yourself follow the PR/review rule.
2015-12-28T17:30:50Z dwchandler: Or use a bot.
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2015-12-28T17:32:22Z moore33: beach: Look what accepting random McClim contribs got you :)
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2015-12-28T17:33:27Z beach: Yeah, that's my point.
2015-12-28T17:33:51Z beach: Most of them weren't "random" though.
2015-12-28T17:33:59Z dwchandler: Is there a license for SICL?
2015-12-28T17:34:23Z beach: dwchandler: Yes, I forget whether it's MIT or BSD.  Something like that.
2015-12-28T17:34:39Z beach: moore33: I couldn't have done the presentation-type system myself.  At least not at the time.
2015-12-28T17:35:49Z dwchandler: beach: cool. would be nice to plop a LICENSE file up there. would you like me to make an issue as a reminder?
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2015-12-28T17:36:30Z beach: That would be great!  Thanks.
2015-12-28T17:36:37Z dwchandler: yay!
2015-12-28T17:36:51Z kazlock: is defun a macro?
2015-12-28T17:36:57Z beach: Yes.
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2015-12-28T17:38:09Z beach: The other thing I want to do with McCLIM is to make a CLX backend that uses a single top-level window rather than nested X11 windows.  Then I can rip out the "coordinate swizzling" code as well.  I think that code is the origin of some defects I have observed.
2015-12-28T17:39:15Z beach: kazlock: The way to find out is to type /msg specbot clhs defun<RET> and then click on the URL you are given.
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2015-12-28T17:40:22Z kazlock: beach: ty
2015-12-28T17:40:31Z beach: ywlcm
2015-12-28T17:41:06Z kazlock: i still need to setup erc so I can do all the fancy abbreviation expansion
2015-12-28T17:41:17Z beach: I recommend it.
2015-12-28T17:41:33Z kazlock: are there a lot of steps involved in setting it up?
2015-12-28T17:41:47Z beach: If I didn't have those, I would get bored, typing "Good morning everyone!" every morning.
2015-12-28T17:42:10Z beach: kazlock: No, it's pretty obvious if you look in your .abbrev_defs file.
2015-12-28T17:42:49Z beach: Oh, ERC?
2015-12-28T17:42:55Z beach: It's already set up by default.
2015-12-28T17:43:15Z beach: It even goes to freenode by default.
2015-12-28T17:45:59Z luis`: The cool kids use Circe instead of ERC.
2015-12-28T17:46:15Z luis` is now known as luis
2015-12-28T17:46:24Z beach feels uncool.
2015-12-28T17:46:49Z mordocai feels that the cool kids use ERC.
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2015-12-28T17:47:25Z beach is neither cool nor a kid.
2015-12-28T17:48:35Z kazlock: kazlock wants to know how the cool kids do that neat narration thing
2015-12-28T17:48:56Z mordocai:  /me
2015-12-28T17:49:09Z kazlock is now a "cool" kid
2015-12-28T17:49:09Z beach: kazlock: /me <some phase in third person to make it really cool>
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2015-12-28T17:52:03Z pwnie: Is there source code for the bot that you can leave memos/messages with? Forget its name but I see it used in this channel all the time
2015-12-28T17:52:21Z beach: Yes.  It's minion.
2015-12-28T17:52:35Z beach: minion: Please tell pwnie about minion.
2015-12-28T17:52:35Z minion: minion: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/minion
2015-12-28T17:52:47Z pwnie: Thank you beach
2015-12-28T17:53:05Z beach: Wow, a complete phrase!  You are very welcome pwnie.
2015-12-28T17:53:07Z moore33: beach: You also got random Americans installing themselves in your town.
2015-12-28T17:53:26Z beach: moore33: Totally NOT random.
2015-12-28T17:53:32Z beach: Carefully chosen. :)
2015-12-28T17:54:52Z beach hopes that his (admittedly small) family is not affected by current tornadoes, speaking of random Americans in "my" town.
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2015-12-28T18:00:31Z beach: moore33: When will you be back in a more civilized (and by then huge) region?
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2015-12-28T18:03:10Z moore33: Saturday
2015-12-28T18:03:20Z beach: Great!
2015-12-28T18:03:29Z moore33: beach: Saturday
2015-12-28T18:04:04Z beach: For those who don't know about the "coordinate swizzling" code, it solves the problem that X11 coordinates and window sizes are represented as 16-bit integers.  But it is of course entirely possible to have a child window of (say) a scroller pane that is taller than 65k pixels.
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2015-12-28T18:04:58Z beach: By eliminating mirrors for all panes except the top-most one, this (necessary) hack can be removed.
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2015-12-28T18:06:00Z beach: Some trivial transformations (a few additions) will then have to be done in the client rather than in the X11 server.
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2015-12-28T18:06:52Z moore33:  beach: you think swizzling is an actual bottleneck, or just an unpleasant complication?
2015-12-28T18:07:13Z beach: The latter.
2015-12-28T18:07:21Z beach: And I suspect the code is buggy too.
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2015-12-28T18:07:40Z beach: I just want to simplify as much as possible.
2015-12-28T18:08:12Z beach: A lot of the McCLIM code is over-engineered.  Something that I am frequently responsible for as well.
2015-12-28T18:08:15Z jackdaniel: beach: is mcclim suitable for writing a gui in it, or it needs too much polishing to use it right now?
2015-12-28T18:08:57Z beach: jackdaniel: It is quite usable.  The result might not be as pretty as you might have wanted though.
2015-12-28T18:09:27Z beach: jackdaniel: Check out this one for instance: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Compta
2015-12-28T18:09:44Z jackdaniel: OK, thanks
2015-12-28T18:09:52Z moore33: I haven't looked at the code in years, but it seems to me it's just a view transformation matrix applied near the end of the McClim pipeline, not too different from what we do in OpenGl
2015-12-28T18:10:12Z moore33: with huge scenes...
2015-12-28T18:10:19Z beach: It's a complete accounting system in 400 lines of code, half of which is the GUI.
2015-12-28T18:10:51Z moore33: Gotta switch clients...
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2015-12-28T18:11:03Z jackdaniel: I want to create SRL (semantic role labeling) tool in CL and wondering, which toolkit will be best for it
2015-12-28T18:11:38Z eudoxia: jackdaniel: I'd write a web interface
2015-12-28T18:11:55Z beach: jackdaniel: If you want pretty, McCLIM is not it currently.  If you want to create it quickly, then McCLIM is definitely the choice.
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2015-12-28T18:12:26Z jackdaniel: the latter, it's just a tool
2015-12-28T18:12:41Z beach: jackdaniel: The question in my mind is how much time would you spend in a non-CLIM toolkit that you could instead spend making McCLIM prettier.
2015-12-28T18:13:03Z jackdaniel: eudoxia: btw, I had problems with cermaic (markdown demo I think) - instructions on the github didn't work - system wasn't on quicklisp afair
2015-12-28T18:13:13Z eudoxia: yeah, trivial-build probably
2015-12-28T18:13:27Z eudoxia: note it's kinda fuckity fucked on Windows
2015-12-28T18:13:36Z eudoxia: because Windows
2015-12-28T18:13:42Z jackdaniel doesn't consider windows a viable platform at all
2015-12-28T18:13:56Z mordocai: Yeah, use a real OS
2015-12-28T18:13:57Z mordocai: :P
2015-12-28T18:13:59Z eudoxia agrees
2015-12-28T18:14:11Z beach: eudoxia: As someone who actually wrote an information system using Hunchentoot, I can tell you that the pain I had to suffer in order to do something similar to CLIM presentation types was literally huge.
2015-12-28T18:14:14Z eudoxia also thinks there's a large market in windows users :P
2015-12-28T18:14:33Z eudoxia: beach: yes, the web sucks, but at least CSS is pretty
2015-12-28T18:14:47Z beach: Exactly my point, yes.
2015-12-28T18:15:40Z beach: jackdaniel: I would be willing to assist you with a CLIM GUI for that.
2015-12-28T18:15:43Z jackdaniel: beach: are you aware of any good  tutorial or only clim2 spec?
2015-12-28T18:15:44Z jasom: reactJS is somewhat similar to presentation types
2015-12-28T18:16:29Z jasom: but only on the rendering side of things, not on the sending commands side
2015-12-28T18:16:38Z jackdaniel: beach: oh, that's very generous of you (given you have so many projects) - thanks!
2015-12-28T18:16:41Z beach: jackdaniel: There used to be a tutorial in the McCLIM documentation.  I don't remember at this point whether someone manages to mess that one up as well.
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2015-12-28T18:17:32Z beach: jackdaniel: I consider it an investment.  :)  Granted, not all investments are profitable, but it's enough that the complete set is. :)
2015-12-28T18:18:05Z jackdaniel: :-)
2015-12-28T18:18:41Z beach: jackdaniel: I am just trying to tell you not to be TOO grateful. :)
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2015-12-28T18:19:51Z beach: jackdaniel: Also, to someone like me who is somewhat familiar with CLIM, it really is a very small effort to whip up a GUI.
2015-12-28T18:20:32Z jasom: I was already familiar with tk, which is why I have very little effort to whip up a gui in ltk.
2015-12-28T18:20:47Z beach: Good for you.
2015-12-28T18:20:57Z jackdaniel: OK, when I'll get to this part of the project (now I'm implementing the HMEANT computing part) I'll write you an e-mail with some questions regarding the suitability of some ideas regarding the tool
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2015-12-28T18:21:27Z beach: jackdaniel: Sounds good.  Don't expect an answer at this time of day, though.
2015-12-28T18:21:38Z fsmunoz: WOuld a Swing backend for McCLIM be something possible? THinking out loud but would open up some interesting possibilities.
2015-12-28T18:21:46Z jackdaniel: no worries :)
2015-12-28T18:22:16Z eudoxia: I have thought about a CLIM backend that renders over websockets to a React frontend in the browser
2015-12-28T18:22:20Z jasom: fsmunoz: it would be possible on abcl, perhaps not otherwise unless you want to use something like foil
2015-12-28T18:22:25Z eudoxia may have gone mad
2015-12-28T18:22:36Z beach: fsmunoz: I have absolutely no idea whether that would be feasible.
2015-12-28T18:23:04Z fsmunoz: jasom: yes, I was implying ABCL or some other JVM based implementation.
2015-12-28T18:23:10Z fsmunoz: beach: understood.
2015-12-28T18:23:46Z jasom: inasmuch as swing lets you render arbitrary widgets, it should be approximately as suitable as any other gui library
2015-12-28T18:24:39Z fsmunoz: It would not be limited to them though: it would mean that one could write a GUI in CLIM and have it working natively when using SBCL in Linux, etc, but the same codebase would also work in ABCL. This seems interesting to me.
2015-12-28T18:25:20Z White_Flame: eudoxia: I think the HTML5 DOM is a very reasonable UI front-end engine for a CLIM-like system, and have tons of design notes about such a system.  No code yet, though, everything needs thorough thinking through before committing to implementation details
2015-12-28T18:25:36Z jasom: The more platforms with working backends, the more useful clim is.  The more backends there are, the harder it is to ensure they all work.
2015-12-28T18:25:47Z fsmunoz: Perhaps it's a fringe case though. Still, a good marketing argument I think.
2015-12-28T18:26:24Z jasom: fsmunoz: it would give you a lowest-common-denominator backend for all major desktop OSes, so it does give you something at least.
2015-12-28T18:26:40Z eudoxia: i'm not really sold on multiple backends unless they somehow have consistent looks
2015-12-28T18:26:44Z fsmunoz: jasom: yes, exactly.
2015-12-28T18:26:49Z jasom: and even though X11 will also work on all major desktop OSes, more people have a JVM installed then an X server
2015-12-28T18:27:38Z fsmunoz: jasom: we could debate the usefulness of Java GUIs vs native, and I also prefer native ones, but having the possibility to just have it running would per se be something valuable I think.
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2015-12-28T18:29:18Z moore33: I think random other backends are an unpleasant distraction.
2015-12-28T18:30:35Z attila_lendvai: we have written a component based gui that renders to HTML (hu.dwim.presentation). it's kinda rusty, but at its height it was working nice, even though it hasn't reached maturity
2015-12-28T18:31:06Z moore33: I think it's fine to apply presentations etc. to the Web and whatever, but...
2015-12-28T18:31:17Z attila_lendvai: but if I was to write it again, I'd render it to a canvas, not html
2015-12-28T18:31:48Z attila_lendvai: I mean to js code that draw whatever is needed to be drawn on the client side canvas
2015-12-28T18:32:10Z eudoxia: why
2015-12-28T18:32:23Z eudoxia: isn't that reinventing HTML inside the canvas :|
2015-12-28T18:32:25Z White_Flame: DOM is more declarative, and takes care of so much automatically
2015-12-28T18:32:27Z eudoxia: HTML and CSS
2015-12-28T18:33:14Z White_Flame: For me, because canvas is so terrible at adjacent antialiased edges, I was thinking more along the lines of DOM + SVG for custom graphics
2015-12-28T18:33:36Z White_Flame: though I've never actually used SVG yet :-P
2015-12-28T18:33:47Z attila_lendvai: well, that depends. if you want full control, and the same look and feel, then html is just in the way. but if you want something simple, then it definitely helps.
2015-12-28T18:34:08Z eudoxia: full control is frankly overrated
2015-12-28T18:34:17Z eudoxia: give me pretty my default over full control any day
2015-12-28T18:34:22Z eudoxia: s/my/by
2015-12-28T18:34:33Z White_Flame: something like "draw whatever you want, keep it mouse sensitive" really isn't simple
2015-12-28T18:34:42Z attila_lendvai: eudoxia: up to the point when you want to do something that leads to a "damn, concept failed!"
2015-12-28T18:34:53Z eudoxia shrugs
2015-12-28T18:35:10Z eudoxia: add a canvas component you can draw to as a last resort
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2015-12-28T18:41:03Z beach: moore33: I kind of agree with the distraction part.  When I started working on McCLIM, I never had in mind the integration with existing toolkits.  I just wanted a native Common Lisp toolkit.
2015-12-28T18:42:13Z beach: But I am not going to stop anyone from creating such backends, of course.
2015-12-28T18:43:56Z myrkraverk: Can SBCL compile-only a file?  Or at least check if the syntax is (mostly) correct?
2015-12-28T18:44:30Z White_Flame: beach: right, which is why in what I mentioned, I said "CLIM-like system", because I don't particularly see the same low level of regions & clipping, and the fairly limited font/style management, as being  APIs to retain
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2015-12-28T18:45:18Z mordocai: Anyone know if any of these lisp related books are worth downloading for education or entertainment/historical value? http://link.springer.com/search?query=lisp&facet-discipline=%22Computer+Science%22&facet-content-type=%22Book%22&showAll=false
2015-12-28T18:45:29Z mordocai: That site has a bunch of free books today btw
2015-12-28T18:45:54Z beach: "springer" and "free" is a clash in my mind. :)
2015-12-28T18:46:13Z shka: heh
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2015-12-28T18:46:28Z shka: sadly no object oriented programming in lisp
2015-12-28T18:46:30Z beach: myrkraverk: Not sure what you mean.  COMPILE-FILE does that.
2015-12-28T18:47:01Z White_Flame: shka: I'm going through "LISP Lore", and it certainly gives a good Flavors introduction :-P
2015-12-28T18:47:16Z beach: Yikes!
2015-12-28T18:47:19Z phoe_krk: myrkraverk: if you're using emacs with slime, C-c C-k does that AFAIR
2015-12-28T18:47:24Z shka: White_Flame: yes, that's why it is free :D
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2015-12-28T18:47:44Z myrkraverk: I want to "test" a hashbang script, written on one system, to be run on the other.  And I'd like to compile on syntax test it before uploading, if possible.
2015-12-28T18:48:00Z myrkraverk: Since there's a #! at the start, (compile-file ...) complains.
2015-12-28T18:48:21Z myrkraverk: *compile or syntax test.
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2015-12-28T18:49:02Z White_Flame: comment that out for testing?
2015-12-28T18:49:21Z Bicyclidine: myrkraverk: which implementation? sbcl fasls have hashbangs
2015-12-28T18:50:40Z myrkraverk: what do you mean "which implementation" ?
2015-12-28T18:50:59Z White_Flame: Bicyclidine: <myrkraverk> Can SBCL compile-only a file?  Or at least check if the syntax is (mostly) correct?
2015-12-28T18:51:17Z myrkraverk: And yeah, apparently, my local system is not exactly like the remote system, so compiling is failing at "unexpected failure points".
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2015-12-28T18:51:44Z White_Flame: could you be more specific?  are they different SBCL versions?  what's failing?
2015-12-28T18:52:41Z moore33: mordocai: The most recent Lisp Lore is actually a great intro to the concepts behind CLIM. Let me look...
2015-12-28T18:52:43Z myrkraverk: loading a file is failing, maybe I didn't copy it to my local system, or something in it is different.
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2015-12-28T18:53:34Z myrkraverk: So I guess I'll just have to upload, then test.
2015-12-28T18:53:52Z moore33: mordocai: Yes, the 1987 edition.
2015-12-28T18:54:16Z moore33: Can't believe it's free; it used to be very pricey on eBay.
2015-12-28T18:54:36Z moore33: Common LISP Modules is horrible.
2015-12-28T18:54:42Z mordocai: moore33: Only temporarily I believe. And obviously a download not a paper book.
2015-12-28T18:54:50Z mordocai: moore33: grabbed it in any case
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2015-12-28T18:55:15Z moore33: mordocai: I understand the difference, but if you just want to read it, then you don't care :)
2015-12-28T18:55:27Z mordocai: Right
2015-12-28T19:00:07Z nyef: moore33: It's STILL very pricey on eBay.
2015-12-28T19:00:32Z moore33: nyef: My copy is kept safely in a box ;)
2015-12-28T19:02:09Z kazlock: I'm trying to figure out the format for calling a function with a "&optional alist" parameter?
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2015-12-28T19:02:51Z White_Flame: (foo '((:a . 1) (:b . 2)))?
2015-12-28T19:03:06Z shka: parallel lisp looks interesting
2015-12-28T19:04:03Z shka: multilisp was first language with future?
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2015-12-28T19:04:37Z White_Flame: it's weird that parallel lisp doesn't have a single PDF for download
2015-12-28T19:04:41Z kazlock: ty White_Flame. Is that list argument just called an "alist"?
2015-12-28T19:04:43Z White_Flame: for the entire book
2015-12-28T19:05:03Z White_Flame: kazlock: yes.  Presumably, the valueof that parameter should be shaped like an a-list
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2015-12-28T19:05:52Z White_Flame: which is a list of cons cells of (key . value) shape
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2015-12-28T19:14:31Z mordocai: White_Flame: yah, I even tried manually constructing the link for the entire book and it doesn't exist.
2015-12-28T19:14:32Z mordocai: Weird
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2015-12-28T19:29:34Z pjb: myrkraverk: machine language will be the slowest language you would use.  This is because to be able to write and debug it successfully, you will avoid sophisticated optimizations that a compiler can easily do.
2015-12-28T19:30:19Z myrkraverk: pjb: You assume too much.  A human can, albeit with great effort, do these optimizations too.
2015-12-28T19:30:31Z pjb: in how much time?
2015-12-28T19:30:49Z pjb: and how many of them can do it?
2015-12-28T19:31:04Z myrkraverk: Years, possibly, but that's why I wrote the "quotes".
2015-12-28T19:31:13Z myrkraverk: pjb: very few.
2015-12-28T19:31:41Z pjb: That said, I would agree that all programmer student should be tasked with writing some kind of application in assembler, for the pedagogical experience.
2015-12-28T19:31:49Z myrkraverk: C:
2015-12-28T19:32:15Z pjb: On NeXT computer, WriteNow was written in assembler!  (which is why it is dead now, despite being the best word processor I've used).
2015-12-28T19:32:32Z myrkraverk: pjb: I know of one case where writing in assembler makes things a lot easier, than say, writing in C.
2015-12-28T19:32:56Z pjb: The guy who wrote it, also wrote some other program that ran on bare NeXTcomputer hardware, entirely in assembler, from the device driver up to the application code. It was also very small :-)
2015-12-28T19:32:58Z myrkraverk: Or any C family of languages I know.
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2015-12-28T19:33:41Z pjb: If you like assembler, have a look at HeavyThing, a nice library to write x86 assembler programs.
2015-12-28T19:33:49Z myrkraverk: I haven't done the same type of calculations in CL, so I'm not sure how it applies there.
2015-12-28T19:34:14Z myrkraverk: pjb: it's when you want to test for overflows that writing in assembler is way easier than writing in C.
2015-12-28T19:34:22Z pjb: Well, given C is not Turing Complete, and cannot guarantee that any program won't crash, you might prefer to write  it in assembler, indeed :-)
2015-12-28T19:34:35Z myrkraverk: in asm, you can just ask the hardware, or use different instructions.  In C, you have to jump through hoops.
2015-12-28T19:34:38Z pjb: Yes.  Overflow, stack management, etc.
2015-12-28T19:35:43Z fsmunoz:     Real Programmers write in FORTRAN.
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2015-12-28T19:35:54Z myrkraverk: Hahaha.
2015-12-28T19:35:59Z fsmunoz: (your conversation reminded me of the Story of Mel)
2015-12-28T19:36:16Z dwchandler: Anyone remember the Spontaneous Assembly libraries?
2015-12-28T19:36:17Z fsmunoz: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html
2015-12-28T19:36:51Z dwchandler: Those were nicely done, but came at the end of when they might have been widely useful
2015-12-28T19:37:48Z p_l: unfortunately writing most in assembly goes heavily against my goals right now :<
2015-12-28T19:38:00Z p_l: other than possibly emitting assembly from CL to program MCUs :P
2015-12-28T19:39:23Z p_l: having to maintain 3 different code bases due to different ISAs would be annoying
2015-12-28T19:40:21Z pjb: beach: the differentiator of X compared to all other graphic environments, is that it can work thru the network.  You can easily have ping up to 300 ms or 500 ms on Earth.  Then can go up to 2.5 seconds when your computer is on the Moon.  The bandwidth is a little better, but you can still find slow links, notably when your computer is on the Moon.  And this is not gratuituous, I contributed to a boomstarter (russian kickstarter), to
2015-12-28T19:40:21Z pjb: send a private satellite around the Moon.
2015-12-28T19:40:56Z pjb: beach: so you may want to avoid useless roundtrips, to stay below the 300 ms reation time needed for smooth user interaction.
2015-12-28T19:40:57Z phoe_krk: pjb: that it *natively* works through the network.
2015-12-28T19:41:09Z pjb: Yes.
2015-12-28T19:41:20Z phoe_krk: with local sessions being just a trivial case of it.
2015-12-28T19:41:52Z p_l: NeWS was a bit more awesome, but it had even more issues than NeXT display server when Apple tried to sell it as Yellow Box
2015-12-28T19:42:38Z pjb: And nowadays, unfortunately, we tend to send X traffic thru ssh, so it may be even more important to optimize traffic.
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2015-12-28T19:42:49Z phoe_krk: pjb: unfortunately?
2015-12-28T19:43:08Z phoe_krk: I find no other option when it comes to not showing your X session over to NSA/KGB.
2015-12-28T19:43:10Z pjb: Yes, for the round time and packet traffic.
2015-12-28T19:43:12Z p_l: phoe_krk: SSH doesn't do well with pass through
2015-12-28T19:43:20Z phoe_krk: Hum.
2015-12-28T19:43:26Z phoe_krk: Another way of native encryption for X?
2015-12-28T19:43:38Z pjb: phoe_krk: if the NSA is interested by you, they will have hacked your computer or keyboard already.
2015-12-28T19:43:44Z pjb: ;-)
2015-12-28T19:43:46Z phoe_krk: well, that's true.
2015-12-28T19:43:47Z p_l: phoe_krk: try setting up IPsec (has the benefit over openvpn that you can add more detailed firewalling)
2015-12-28T19:44:26Z p_l: strongswan even includes some early post-quantum crypto support for it
2015-12-28T19:45:10Z shka: White_Flame: i downloaded parts
2015-12-28T19:45:25Z shka: i can create single pdf
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2015-12-28T19:46:17Z synchromesh: White_Flame, shka: Yes, "wget -nd -r --accept=pdf http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/BFb0024148" will get you all the PDF files.
2015-12-28T19:48:12Z jasom: myrkraverk: try this http://paste.lisp.org/+6INN
2015-12-28T19:48:46Z pjb: beach: even if we exclude X on the Moon, world wide ping times range up to 300 ms or 500 ms (and this is a problem for multiplayer real time games).  For example, a ping from Paris to Vietnam is : round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 324.006/427.418/619.554/122.250 ms ; so to keep it under exasperation level when you connect to the computer you leave there while travelling here, you definitely want to avoid multiple round-trips.
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2015-12-28T19:49:16Z jasom: POSIX requires any executable that fails with ENOEXEC be interpreted as a shell script
2015-12-28T19:49:58Z myrkraverk: jasom: ah, nice.  But in this case, I rather not use "tricks"
2015-12-28T19:50:01Z jasom: so this works.  Note that shells are allowed to bypass if it is "not a text file" so non C locale characters may be non-portable
2015-12-28T19:50:05Z shka: synchromesh: i just used flash get
2015-12-28T19:50:12Z p_l: pjb: 300 to 500 ms assumes good conditions and wires everywhere...
2015-12-28T19:50:20Z Bicyclidine: still waiting on quake over ssh :(
2015-12-28T19:50:22Z pjb: fsmunoz: we're talking X emacs, not X with heavily graphic games.
2015-12-28T19:50:37Z p_l used to play MUDs over 5s ping
2015-12-28T19:50:43Z p_l: as well as hang out on this channel ;)
2015-12-28T19:50:54Z pjb: p_l: granted, I don't consider connecting to a computer on a boat thru Inmarsat.
2015-12-28T19:50:55Z myrkraverk: I'm not sure I get ping to europe under a second, during the daytime.  (I'm in south east asia)
2015-12-28T19:51:42Z p_l: pjb: I considered just my experiences near major aglomeration with wireless
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2015-12-28T19:51:54Z p_l: to closely-located hosts, even
2015-12-28T19:52:23Z pjb: Oh, if you mean GSM, yes. Even G3/G4 can be slow when you lack dense coverage.
2015-12-28T19:52:53Z p_l: HSPA+ in stormy condition gave me 3s of just jitter
2015-12-28T19:53:16Z p_l: and that was for ping, not TCP with all of its retransmits
2015-12-28T19:53:31Z p_l: (even with the Teclo proxy box in the middle that I know of)
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2015-12-28T19:55:36Z myrkraverk: Now that I'm in SE Asia, I have a new appreciation for internet speeds in Europe.
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2015-12-28T19:58:00Z fsmunoz: pjb: yes, I know, but I _think_ that my remote usage of X has gotten worse with the adoption of "modern" toolkits. Emacs works fine, but anything based on GTK or QT seems to me to take a long time even when just refreshing a text input box
2015-12-28T19:58:33Z p_l: fsmunoz: GTK3 is known to be broken in weird and interesting ways
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2015-12-28T19:58:51Z fsmunoz: Could be my perception that is skewed or perhaps some part of the X toolkit stopped being used or something, not sure.
2015-12-28T19:59:08Z p_l: I believe that forcing it to go over network instead of local unix sockets is one of the few things that can fix it on thinkpad R50, for example
2015-12-28T19:59:39Z p_l: fsmunoz: GTK has tendency to assume Gnome with Mutter/Wayland
2015-12-28T20:01:08Z p_l: fsmunoz: the thinkpad R50 I mentioned was used as fleet of "free" laptops at hackerspace warsaw, all netbooted. GTK applications uniformly looked bad, while QT looked normal
2015-12-28T20:01:37Z p_l: apparently GTK3 tried to use GL for parts of rendering process and didn't understand that the GL pipeline was 16bit (2D pipeline was 24 bits)
2015-12-28T20:01:52Z fsmunoz: right
2015-12-28T20:02:40Z fsmunoz: Are wayland/mutter a thing already? I assumed they were still not used
2015-12-28T20:02:42Z p_l: I heard that recent GTK was at least for a time similarly confused when it faced "classically" configured X11 which had different depth displays
2015-12-28T20:02:48Z fsmunoz: I mean, not adopted by most distros etc.
2015-12-28T20:03:15Z p_l: mutter is used, and well, wayland and mutter behave similarly for the glory of Red Hat
2015-12-28T20:03:19Z fsmunoz: I think that there is something deeper in what I am talking about since it predates this, let me see if I can find anything
2015-12-28T20:03:58Z fsmunoz: I use RHEL and still have Xorg, perhaps some next version?
2015-12-28T20:04:23Z fsmunoz will still see Xfree86 make a comeback!
2015-12-28T20:04:29Z synchromesh: mordocai: Thanks for the link to those books!
2015-12-28T20:04:45Z p_l: fsmunoz: wayland is still not really usable
2015-12-28T20:04:51Z p_l: Mir is afaik in even worse state
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2015-12-28T20:05:25Z mordocai: synchromesh: no problem. Got it from bremner on #emacs
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2015-12-28T20:06:47Z synchromesh: mordocai: Unfortunately they'll likely languish forgotten in a dusty subdirectory rather than sit magnificently on my bookshelf, but hey. :)
2015-12-28T20:07:18Z p_l: I recall that Wayland had reproduced some early GUI stack bloopers like synchronous input queue
2015-12-28T20:08:49Z p_l: anyway, unless you're using only GTK/QT (and distro-supplied at that), the application won't work without starting X emulation :|
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2015-12-28T20:26:58Z phoe_krk: How can I ask CCL+Slime to open a new buffer in Emacs and append something to its end?
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2015-12-28T20:36:38Z shka: phoe_krk: write function for it
2015-12-28T20:36:55Z phoe_krk: shka: so it's not that trivial.
2015-12-28T20:37:15Z shka: it is fairly trivial, just not implemented in emacs
2015-12-28T20:37:31Z shka: but emacs on its own is just enviorment to run lisp code
2015-12-28T20:37:39Z shka: so you can extend it
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2015-12-28T21:50:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: Anyone else able to download the source here? I'm not sure if the website is down or there's a CVSism I don't know. https://common-lisp.net/project/closure/
2015-12-28T21:51:15Z Petit_Dejeuner: I keep getting a "connection refused" warning.
2015-12-28T21:51:36Z nyef: Petit_Dejeuner: IIRC, clnet moved entirely away from CVS a while back.
2015-12-28T21:51:40Z nyef: So, stale link.
2015-12-28T21:51:51Z nyef: You might see if it's available via the clnet gitlab, though.
2015-12-28T21:52:15Z mordocai: yeah, look for code at gitlab.common-lisp.net
2015-12-28T21:52:29Z mordocai: Tons and tons of stale links that point to their cvs
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2015-12-28T21:55:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, found it. https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/closure/closure Thanks!
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2015-12-28T22:45:51Z jasom: myrkraverk: I consider this considerably less hacky than the contortions sbcl goes through to run shebang scripts, but I can see where one might disagree
2015-12-28T22:46:16Z jasom: okay, wtf is wrong with paste.lisp.org
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2015-12-28T22:50:11Z mordocai: It was down completely yesterday. What is it doing today? jasom
2015-12-28T22:50:38Z prxq: seems to work
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2015-12-28T22:51:30Z prxq: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304115 "test"
2015-12-28T22:52:00Z jasom: mordocai: a paste I made an hour ago is now spam
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2015-12-28T22:53:24Z mordocai: Interesting. Yeah, yesterday I complained about it being down and couple times. Not sure who is the maintainer of the site though. I was hoping they lurk here.
2015-12-28T22:54:47Z jasom: mordocai: and it is different spam every time I reload
2015-12-28T22:54:55Z jasom: prxq: reload your link now
2015-12-28T22:55:19Z mordocai: jasom: prxq's doesn't show as spam for me
2015-12-28T22:55:25Z prxq: it does now
2015-12-28T22:55:31Z prxq: it has been hacked.
2015-12-28T22:55:37Z mordocai: Oh wait, i see
2015-12-28T22:56:11Z mordocai: Yeah, seems like hacked. I guess we could email support@common-lisp.net ?
2015-12-28T22:56:33Z jasom: and if an op could change the topic to point to another pastebin?
2015-12-28T22:58:40Z prxq: I've put lisppaste down
2015-12-28T22:58:47Z jeti: my paste turned also into spam.  Now my code is: http://fmfaq.de/paste/p1.txt.  How do I capture different input in lambdas in a loop?
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2015-12-28T22:59:09Z prxq: my personal opinion has been for a while that cl.net should not be running that service.
2015-12-28T23:01:09Z prxq: use pastebin.mozilla.org
2015-12-28T23:02:10Z jasom: also, Brian requests that his name be taken off of it, if it were to go back up.
2015-12-28T23:03:15Z synchromesh: https://gist.github.com/ is nice.
2015-12-28T23:04:02Z prxq: jasom: Brian?
2015-12-28T23:04:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: Does it require an account?
2015-12-28T23:04:42Z synchromesh: Petit_Dejeuner: Dunno, I haven't tried using it when not logged in to GitHub.
2015-12-28T23:05:16Z prxq: jasom: I imagine who it may be, but he should contact common-lisp.net if he feels that way
2015-12-28T23:05:58Z jasom: prxq: Brian Mastenbrook; I pinged him about it, asking if he still ran it.
2015-12-28T23:06:00Z synchromesh: Petit_Dejeuner: No, it doesn't require an account.
2015-12-28T23:06:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: I guess it's fine then.
2015-12-28T23:06:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Although, if there was existing paste software that could be ran from cl.net that might be better.
2015-12-28T23:07:20Z prxq: what for? there are tons of pastebins. let other people bother with the spam.
2015-12-28T23:07:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: Not Under My Control syndrome or something
2015-12-28T23:07:29Z Petit_Dejeuner: NUMC
2015-12-28T23:07:31Z jeti: ok, now my question is also: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/8855439
2015-12-28T23:07:36Z prxq: (the "what for" is a real question)
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2015-12-28T23:08:36Z mordocai: Yeah, i'm fine with using pastebin.mozilla.org personally.
2015-12-28T23:08:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: jeti: same binding with different values?
2015-12-28T23:08:52Z jasom: "Mozilla systems and collaborative tools are intended for use by the Mozilla community for Mozilla related work" <-- that would make me think it's not intended as a public-use pastebin
2015-12-28T23:09:24Z jeti: don't know how to create different bindings in a loop
2015-12-28T23:09:44Z jasom: jeti: do (let ...)
2015-12-28T23:09:47Z prxq: jasom: you are right. Well, there's pastebin.ca :-)
2015-12-28T23:10:02Z jeti: ok
2015-12-28T23:10:06Z jasom: gist.github.com works for me
2015-12-28T23:10:08Z mordocai: I'll put forth refheap.com as an open source lispy (Clojure) alternative
2015-12-28T23:10:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: refheap is great
2015-12-28T23:10:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: if only because it's so boring and empty
2015-12-28T23:10:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: no ads
2015-12-28T23:10:37Z jasom: jeti: or in this case (loop for i in '(1 2 3) collect (let ((i i)) (lambda () i))
2015-12-28T23:10:59Z prxq: jeti: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/8855440
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2015-12-28T23:11:06Z prxq: jasom beat me to it
2015-12-28T23:11:13Z mordocai: One feature refheap is missing is annotations, though you can use it from emacs through refheap.el
2015-12-28T23:11:35Z prxq: jeti: but actually: that's a very important example. Make sure you meditate thoroughly over it!
2015-12-28T23:12:05Z jeti: ok thanks!
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2015-12-28T23:12:22Z jasom: jeti: I agree with prxq; understanding why my version works, and yours does not is important to advancing in an understanding of bindings
2015-12-28T23:13:23Z jasom: It will also cause you to say "WTF" to offhand comments in books/articles like "...functional languages such as lisp..."
2015-12-28T23:14:08Z jasom: as this is one example of a place where if one were specifically trying to make a functional language, different behavior would be included
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2015-12-28T23:16:32Z jeti: does this mean that working with different bindings is not pure functional style?
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2015-12-28T23:17:34Z prxq: jeti: working with common lisp is very functional in the sense that it works, but very non-functional in the sense of functional programming
2015-12-28T23:20:06Z jeti: I see. As Mr. Schroedingers cat is both alive and dead.
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2015-12-28T23:25:42Z jasom: jeti: assignment is not pure functional, and LOOP assigns
2015-12-28T23:26:13Z jasom: If one were designing a language specifically for functional programming, the for loop keyword would introduce a new binding on every iteration
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2015-12-28T23:28:20Z jeti: and same behaviour with do/dolist?
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2015-12-28T23:35:19Z jeti: for dolist it is implementation-dependent
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2015-12-28T23:36:08Z mordocai: eww
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2015-12-28T23:38:26Z mordocai: Of course, a quick google doesn't tell me what each implemenation does
2015-12-28T23:40:57Z jeti: _do_ creates bindings!  So I could also use do
2015-12-28T23:43:37Z mordocai: jeti: looks like sbcl creates bindings for dolist. https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/defboot.lisp#L357-L365. Not that you probably want to rely on that since it is implementation dependent.
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2015-12-28T23:45:39Z moore33: jeti: do doesn't create new bindings for each iteration.
2015-12-28T23:46:26Z jeti: ok. I misread this.  It creates newe bindings for every var.
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2015-12-28T23:48:08Z moore33: Yes, the spec is a bit bizarre for do -- as if an implementor might consider not establishing new bindings for the iteration variables.
2015-12-28T23:48:21Z Bicyclidine: i wonder if there's any case where you'd specifically want it it not to establish a binding for each iteration
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2015-12-28T23:48:43Z mordocai: performance theoretically.
2015-12-28T23:48:51Z mordocai: I think
2015-12-28T23:50:02Z Bicyclidine: i mean, surely a not-that-smart compiler could elide making fresh bindings when there are no closures, and i think sets are pretty banned anyway.
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