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2015-12-24T00:07:39Z jasom: was I on the wrong side of a netsplit or something?  I didn't see xristos' question
2015-12-24T00:09:09Z phoe_krk: neither did I
2015-12-24T00:14:26Z |3b|: probably was just a while ago
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2015-12-24T00:15:25Z phoe_krk: |3b|: more than a day.
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2015-12-24T00:20:22Z pjb: minion: memo for zdm: read the clhs random   (random 7) does not return an integer between 1 and 6 (inclusive).
2015-12-24T00:20:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell zdm when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-12-24T00:38:59Z phoe_krk: (random 7) returns from 0 to 6?
2015-12-24T00:39:06Z phoe_krk: inclusive?
2015-12-24T00:39:25Z jasom: [0,7)
2015-12-24T00:39:44Z Bicyclidine: yup
2015-12-24T00:41:04Z jasom: dijkstra did an article on why zero-indexing upper-bound exclusive was the best way to describe slices.  I suppose a similar argument would work for random too
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2015-12-24T00:41:55Z pjb: mordocai: using apply concatenate is not a good idea, (apply +, etc), because of call-arguments-limit.  Have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:concatenate-strings  and   com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:concatenate-sequences
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2015-12-24T00:44:00Z pjb: mordocai: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:mapconcat may also be of interest (cf. emacs mapconcat).
2015-12-24T00:46:17Z pjb: phoe_krk: yes, 0 to 6, not 1 to 6.
2015-12-24T00:47:29Z pjb: jasom: yes. One could imagine the bound from random is applied using modulo, but this would break equidistribution in general, so it's not the case.
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2015-12-24T00:51:31Z Write-to-string: Is ecl a production quality implementation?
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2015-12-24T00:57:38Z jasom: specware just got open sourced?
2015-12-24T00:57:48Z jasom: missing a license file though
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2015-12-24T01:24:16Z Quadrescence: Has anyone thought about good software engineering approaches to endowing objects/classes with additional slots or pseudo-slots without subclassing
2015-12-24T01:24:17Z Quadrescence: ?
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2015-12-24T01:27:05Z mtl_: Quadrescence: I vaguely recall seeing something like that in the stumpwm source code
2015-12-24T01:27:14Z mtl_: you could define window "properties"
2015-12-24T01:27:27Z mtl_: I think they used hash tables
2015-12-24T01:28:04Z Quadrescence: That is one approach, to just have a global hash keyed on object identity.
2015-12-24T01:28:19Z Quadrescence: (and the value itself is a table of "properties")
2015-12-24T01:28:30Z mtl_: you'll have to look up the code yourself to get specifics
2015-12-24T01:28:32Z Quadrescence: (values themselves* rather)
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2015-12-24T01:30:03Z mtl_: you might have a object-allocated hash table of property values
2015-12-24T01:30:15Z mtl_: and a class-allocated slot of keys?
2015-12-24T01:31:40Z Quadrescence: mtl_, That seems like an interesting approach, more "good SW engineering" than the global idea. But of course that relies on the ability to change the class definition.
2015-12-24T01:32:39Z PuercoPop: drmeister: Slime offers a convinence C-c x (and C-u/- for the reverse) to add a symbol to the export clause of the package, so one has to switch less to it.
2015-12-24T01:32:43Z mtl_: you'd need various methods too of course
2015-12-24T01:33:36Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, I wonder if we can teach SLIME to add it to the correct :EXPORT clause!
2015-12-24T01:33:48Z mtl_: Quadrescence: the class-allocated slot could even be a hash table itself
2015-12-24T01:34:04Z mtl_: containing initforms and such
2015-12-24T01:34:30Z Quadrescence: It could be whatever, and encode what is desired for a "pseudo-slot".
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2015-12-24T01:34:42Z PuercoPop: Quadrescence: to the correct? wdym? I know that inferring the package of the buffer is far from perfect, do you mean that?
2015-12-24T01:35:04Z PuercoPop: (and using stuff like uiop's define-package removes that functionality completly)
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2015-12-24T01:35:22Z mtl_: you could even make fancy macros for automatically defining accessor functions and such
2015-12-24T01:35:35Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, I mean support this style of symbol exporting: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-permutation/raw/master/src/package.lisp
2015-12-24T01:35:44Z Quadrescence: (I think that's the cleanest and most readable way.)
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2015-12-24T01:36:53Z mtl_: Quadrescence: one issue is you might need one initial object to be able to add stuff to the class-allocated slot
2015-12-24T01:36:55Z PuercoPop: mtl_: that job is imho best left to the editor, stuff like yasnippet or something ad-hoc
2015-12-24T01:37:01Z mtl_: but i dunno if that's necessary in common lisp
2015-12-24T01:37:06Z mtl_: it is in C++ :P
2015-12-24T01:37:41Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, But if SLIME is going to auto-add a symbol, and if symbols are laid out in that style, ideally it could add to the correct one. :)
2015-12-24T01:40:01Z mtl_: Quadrescence: who knows, MOP might be useful as well
2015-12-24T01:40:09Z mtl_: but i still haven't really learned mop
2015-12-24T01:40:31Z Quadrescence: I'm almost certain you could do some MOP stuff.
2015-12-24T01:40:41Z mtl_: i really need to learn MOP
2015-12-24T01:40:58Z mtl_: well, not really really
2015-12-24T01:41:03Z mtl_: but I want to
2015-12-24T01:41:19Z mtl_: just need some kinda sensible application for it
2015-12-24T01:41:26Z Quadrescence: MOP is good to be aware of, but it isn't used much at all. Even my abstract/final/etc classes I never use.
2015-12-24T01:41:33Z Quadrescence: metaclasses*
2015-12-24T01:41:48Z mtl_: yeah that's the impression I have as well
2015-12-24T01:42:29Z mtl_: I've never un across much MOP code in the wild
2015-12-24T01:42:36Z mtl_: run*
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2015-12-24T01:42:42Z mtl_: not once, I don't think
2015-12-24T01:42:49Z PuercoPop: Quadrescence: there are a lot of improvements that could be done to slime. I tend to find the code base hard to approach due to most of if being in a few huge files.
2015-12-24T01:42:59Z Quadrescence: :)
2015-12-24T01:43:33Z PuercoPop: I think that the lack of use of the mop is also due to few open source examples of its use. And tutorials.
2015-12-24T01:44:00Z Quadrescence: Maybe that's true, but I just don't see the need for lots of people to completely change the way classes and methods work.
2015-12-24T01:44:25Z PuercoPop: Stuff like django's ORM, forms and admin are a good use candidate for the
2015-12-24T01:44:34Z Quadrescence: I agree.
2015-12-24T01:45:15Z PuercoPop: MOP imho. I should try to finish a prototype I was working on a while back.
2015-12-24T01:45:18Z mtl_: well, i love to experiment with weird not necessarily useful stuff in lisp
2015-12-24T01:45:40Z mtl_: so I think mop is right for me
2015-12-24T01:45:53Z Quadrescence: Yeah experimenting is fun. I used MOP for my symbolic function stuff.
2015-12-24T01:46:08Z mtl_: emacs is my laboratory
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2015-12-24T01:50:00Z drmeister: PuercoPop: C-c x ?
2015-12-24T01:50:56Z mtl_: Quadrescence: symbolic functions?
2015-12-24T01:51:00Z PuercoPop: drmeister: yeah, that calls slime-export-symbol-at-point
2015-12-24T01:51:12Z Quadrescence: mtl_, I have some slides somewhere. Let me look.
2015-12-24T01:51:43Z drmeister: I don't have that key-binding or emacs function.
2015-12-24T01:51:59Z drmeister: PuercoPop: Thanks for responding by the way.
2015-12-24T01:52:16Z drmeister: PuercoPop: I have a very up to date slime.  But I don't see slime-export-symbol-at-point
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2015-12-24T01:53:06Z PuercoPop: I use sly, but it was there in slime. See http://slime-tips.tumblr.com/post/10851398604/exporting-symbols
2015-12-24T01:56:13Z Quadrescence: mtl_, Here are slides I gave at the Seattle Lisp meeting back in April on the topic: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/734346/Symbolic-Functions_Robert-Smith.pdf
2015-12-24T01:56:50Z Quadrescence: (and yes, it looks like the third slide has an incomplete sentence)
2015-12-24T01:58:51Z drmeister: PuercoPop: Here is tab completion in emacs using M-x slime-<tab>
2015-12-24T01:58:59Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/en7gYB21/
2015-12-24T01:59:21Z drmeister: Those are just the slime-e<tab> commands.
2015-12-24T01:59:29Z drmeister: It appears to have been removed.
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2015-12-24T02:02:48Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/contrib/slime-package-fu.el#L16 you need the slime-package-fu contrib enabled aparently.
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2015-12-24T02:08:04Z mtl_: Quadrescence: I'll take a look at them tomorrow maybe
2015-12-24T02:08:14Z mtl_: my brain is kinda fried for today
2015-12-24T02:08:35Z PuercoPop: btw, is there a discussion of which parts of CL would be a good target for 'desugaring into'? I know of sbcl/cmucl IR1 and jscl follow that approach so I study as a start. Is there something else?
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2015-12-24T02:10:37Z drmeister: PuercoPop: Thanks.    I didn't realize there was more to slime than what comes default.
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2015-12-24T02:11:29Z Quadrescence: mtl_, I changed the link and fixed a few typos: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/734346/JIT-Compilation-of-Symbolic-Functions_Robert-Smith.pdf
2015-12-24T02:11:37Z PuercoPop: the indendation contrib that Bike talked about earlier is another nice one (that I just realized I hadn't enabled)
2015-12-24T02:12:43Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, Do you mean "what things would CL be good to desugar into?"
2015-12-24T02:12:55Z Quadrescence: i.e., "what's a good IR for CL?"
2015-12-24T02:14:06Z Kitlith: Quick question: Can we redefine the REPL prompt? Is that implementation dependent?
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2015-12-24T02:14:34Z mtl_: Kitlith: you can just write your own repl and run that
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2015-12-24T02:14:58Z Kitlith: I see. Understood.
2015-12-24T02:15:15Z mtl_: and if you really wanted to you could run that from your the configuration file of your implementation
2015-12-24T02:15:23Z mtl_: not sure how that would affect slime though
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2015-12-24T02:16:17Z Quadrescence: I wouldn't run from config script, I'd just make a new image
2015-12-24T02:16:29Z mtl_: yeah
2015-12-24T02:16:32Z mtl_: that's probably best
2015-12-24T02:16:36Z Quadrescence: or, call (my-repl) when I start :)
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2015-12-24T02:17:16Z PuercoPop: Quadrescence: that would be a better way to say it
2015-12-24T02:18:18Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, your question sounded like "what's the core of CL which CL could be desugared to", and I'd respond "the special operators!"
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2015-12-24T02:19:21Z Bicyclidine: they still have a lot of complications to them, though
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2015-12-24T02:20:56Z Quadrescence: Of course.
2015-12-24T02:22:28Z Xach_: Kitlith: it's implementation-dependent
2015-12-24T02:22:42Z Xach_: PuercoPop: did you see baker's paper on the topic?
2015-12-24T02:23:15Z PuercoPop: Xach_: which one? The ranty one against lawyers?
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2015-12-24T02:24:27Z Meek: hello
2015-12-24T02:24:29Z Meek: anyone home
2015-12-24T02:24:33Z Xach_: PuercoPop: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zFC86n6WC7kJ:www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us (the original url is over quota, boo)
2015-12-24T02:24:46Z Kitlith: Meek: Yes, we're home.
2015-12-24T02:24:57Z Meek: ok :)
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2015-12-24T02:26:02Z Meek: I had to ride to Minnesota today, five hour drive, the ride back is gonna be sooooo fun
2015-12-24T02:26:08Z Meek sarcastic
2015-12-24T02:26:08Z PuercoPop: Xach_: yeah, that was the one I was thinking about. But I'm unsure of how it related. I find Baker a pleasure to read. More than once he has made me lol irl.
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2015-12-24T02:26:53Z Kitlith: Meek: Well, if you didn't want an answer, then why did you ask? (jk)
2015-12-24T02:26:56Z Xach_: Meek: This channel is for discussing common lisp.
2015-12-24T02:26:57Z PuercoPop: Quadrescence: Well, one could go a little bit higher. I was thinking of at least using a simpler defun with only fixed-length args at least. Incidentally Bike just published a repo parsing lambda-lists
2015-12-24T02:27:08Z Xach_: Meek: if you'd like to discuss life in general, try another channel.
2015-12-24T02:27:10Z Meek: It's always fun when i get here but getting here sucks
2015-12-24T02:27:16Z Meek: :(
2015-12-24T02:27:38Z Xach_: PuercoPop: It's about distilling CL down to special operators, and which you could choose as most primitive, or not.
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2015-12-24T02:35:00Z Meek: Xach_ do you live near Brunswick?
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2015-12-24T02:40:37Z nowhere_man: hey all, I'm discovering package-inferred-system
2015-12-24T02:40:56Z nowhere_man: well, I discovered it a long time ago, but I'm actually trying for the first time…
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2015-12-24T02:41:52Z nowhere_man: I'm wondering, is there any inherent difficulty in having ASDF or Quicklisp do for us all the (register-system-packages ...) ?
2015-12-24T02:42:27Z nowhere_man: like, the first time I load system "do-urlencode", it could find out it just created package "URLENCODE"
2015-12-24T02:43:30Z nowhere_man: and I don't need (register-system-packages "do-urlencode" '(:urlencode)) in each and every one of my ASDF system that depends on it
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2015-12-24T03:28:46Z Quadrescence: all hail the cons cell. i get so happy when i find out i can use cons cells for data structures other than lists of binary trees
2015-12-24T03:32:40Z Quadrescence: e.g. here: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-permutation/raw/master/src/block.lisp
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2015-12-24T03:36:18Z Meek: Hey guys
2015-12-24T03:36:34Z Quadrescence: hello
2015-12-24T03:38:03Z Meek: How's your day?
2015-12-24T03:38:34Z PuercoPop: apropos cons cells. I'm curious why the accum idiom is not more prevalent given than I often run into the push + reverse at the end. http://malisper.me/2015/05/31/efficiently-building-lists/
2015-12-24T03:39:48Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, it's because lisp users are scared of loading small third-party libraries
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2015-12-24T03:40:03Z Quadrescence: (except SPLIT-SEQUENCE apparently!)
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2015-12-24T03:42:13Z nowhere_man: PuercoPop: it might be because push+reverse is efficient
2015-12-24T03:42:48Z PuercoPop: Quadrescence: so you cater to them with quick-util :D (which incidentally has some unreplied issues)
2015-12-24T03:43:05Z nowhere_man: it may be counter-intuitive, but doing the reversal at the end is sometimes more efficient than a bunch of tail writes
2015-12-24T03:43:37Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, That is true about Quickutil but I don't think anyone uses it. ;D
2015-12-24T03:43:51Z Quadrescence: And yes I know I have pending issues to respond to. Maybe I should do that now...
2015-12-24T03:45:00Z PuercoPop: nowhere_man: this may be, but even thinking about benchmarking probably makes me want to leave it at push + reverse and don't worry about it :D
2015-12-24T03:45:02Z Quadrescence: I can't see why TAIL+REVERSE could be more efficient, unless mutation is doing something bad in the CPU
2015-12-24T03:47:42Z Quadrescence: N conses + N tail writes   vs   2N conses + N memory accesses (cons+reverse)   vs   N conses + some wacky in place traversal that requires >= N memory accesses and mutations (CONS+NREVERSE)
2015-12-24T03:48:05Z PuercoPop: Quadrescence: quick-util is a nice idea. Another way would be to write it as a library but also have a build process that publishes each function independently ala lodash. Although I don't fret about 'bloated dependencies'. Normally with alexandria, split-sequence and string-case are good enough.
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2015-12-24T03:48:53Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, I don't mind bloated dependencies either, but it doesn't seem that utility distribution is a solved problem.
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2015-12-24T03:49:10Z Quadrescence: Otherwise people would use code like that tail accumulator instead of copy-pasting it every time they need it.
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2015-12-24T03:55:39Z nowhere_man: Quadrescence: http://blog.splittist.com/2007/10/10/nreverse-vs-pointer-manipulation-revisted/
2015-12-24T03:56:06Z nowhere_man: The article I had in mind was Water's
2015-12-24T03:56:55Z PuercoPop: The problem of utility functions is that they are intertwined with the particular idiolect of the programmer. I've been keeping an eye on https://github.com/TBRSS/serapeum which seems nice, but have never needed anything from it. It has a racket-inspired nested defuns for local functions definitions among other stuff.
2015-12-24T04:00:12Z Quadrescence: nowhere_man, I wonder what the code compiled to in those examples.
2015-12-24T04:00:57Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, Yes, I've looked at that too. It seems like big-alexandria. Again, nothing wrong with that, but it seems like such a weird partition. small-utils vs large-utils
2015-12-24T04:01:01Z Quadrescence: and then micro-utils everywhere
2015-12-24T04:01:04Z Quadrescence: and then personal-utils
2015-12-24T04:01:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: "How to iterate over a loop efficiently." I thought we were all busy solving BIG problems.
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2015-12-24T04:09:15Z nowhere_man: I'd say the ones solving big problems need some others solving the small ones
2015-12-24T04:09:25Z nowhere_man: me, I solve the problems I have, mostly
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2015-12-24T04:31:31Z Quadrescence: PuercoPop, Interested in helping add utilities to quickutil? ;D
2015-12-24T04:43:37Z PuercoPop: Quadrescence: I'm not sure I'm the best person as I don't use it ^_^
2015-12-24T04:43:44Z Quadrescence: :)
2015-12-24T04:48:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: link?
2015-12-24T04:48:55Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, to quickutil? www.quickutil.org ?
2015-12-24T04:51:18Z pjb: minion: memo for beach: Allez, cadeaux de Noël en avance: a good half hour of hilarity: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1637.pdf   (that said, surely if we were to write down a formal semantics of CL we'd have problems too, but I feel they'd be less dire).
2015-12-24T04:51:18Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-12-24T04:53:56Z pjb: Quadrescence: indeed, just have a slot to hold additionnal slots; this can be an a-list or a hash-table depending on the number of additional slots (5 or 6 should be a good break even on most implementations). You can override the slot-value method for this class, and you can also define accessors.
2015-12-24T04:54:23Z Quadrescence: pjb, I was wondering in the event you don't have control over the class.
2015-12-24T04:55:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: Composition?
2015-12-24T04:56:30Z Quadrescence: is (eq (find-package :foo) (symbol-package x)) the best way to check if X's package is :FOO?
2015-12-24T04:56:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: Actually, I'm confused. wouldn't inheritance work for this?
2015-12-24T04:56:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: Why wouldn't*
2015-12-24T04:56:48Z pjb: Quadrescence: you always have control over a class with the MOP, since you can always add/remove slots dynamically.  Oh yes, this allows you another implementation strategy, just use MOP to add slots (if they should be the same for all instances).
2015-12-24T04:57:00Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, Yes, that could work. This discussion is from much earlier.
2015-12-24T04:57:18Z Petit_Dejeuner scrolls up
2015-12-24T04:57:35Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, the original question was: "good SW engineering ways to attach new slots or pseudo-slots to objects or classes"
2015-12-24T04:57:59Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: sometimes, you have a lot of possible properties for some class of objects, but not all object have all the properties.  They may have a few, occasionnaly.
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2015-12-24T04:58:48Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: an example would be in a GUI, windows, views, could have colors (fore, back, etc), but it would be exceptional to set those properties, since the default colors are generally used.
2015-12-24T05:00:10Z pjb: minion: memo for Kitlith: there may be advantages to use the implementation REPL however.  Most implementations indeed have customization variables or hooks to configure the prompt.  Cf. your implementation documentation, or try (apropos "PROMTP").
2015-12-24T05:00:10Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Kitlith when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-12-24T05:01:54Z PuercoPop: pjb: that example precisely is used in the AMOP to develop a MOP extension for allocating in a as needed basis for slots.
2015-12-24T05:02:33Z Quadrescence: one question is whether that qualifies as good SW engineering though
2015-12-24T05:02:40Z nyef: pjb: "PROMTP"?
2015-12-24T05:03:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: I was thinking more like entites in a video game. ig "This is a position with a physics compent with this mass, and this mesh, and this texture, but now I want to remove the mesh and texture and just add a light source to it." How are GUI color values an example of a slot that needs to be removed or added?
2015-12-24T05:03:12Z nyef: (... "programmable read-only memory toilet paper"?)
2015-12-24T05:03:30Z pjb: Quadrescence: mutation does something bad to the (cached) memory.  cons+nreverse would be slower on list bigger than the cache sizes..
2015-12-24T05:03:47Z pjb: nyef: sorry, PROMPT
2015-12-24T05:04:56Z pjb: Quadrescence: there's an old paper showing that cons+nreverse is as fast as tail dragging, but that was without the modern caches.
2015-12-24T05:06:11Z pjb: Quadrescence: no, your package test is awful.
2015-12-24T05:06:26Z Quadrescence: pjb, okay what's a better one
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2015-12-24T05:07:01Z pjb: Quadrescence: you are testing the HOME package. A symbol can be accesible from a package even if it's not it's home package (thru use-package or import).
2015-12-24T05:07:29Z Quadrescence: can any symbol in :CL have a different home package?
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2015-12-24T05:07:44Z pjb: Yes.
2015-12-24T05:07:47Z pjb: Definitely!
2015-12-24T05:07:56Z Quadrescence: Okay then this is definitely an important consideration.
2015-12-24T05:08:24Z Quadrescence: pjb, All I can think of is DO-SYMBOLS. Is there anything better?
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2015-12-24T05:09:05Z pjb: If you want to test if a symbol is exported form a package you can use (eq (nth-value 1 (find-symbol (symbol-name sym) package)) :external)
2015-12-24T05:09:22Z Quadrescence: Oh yeah I totally forgot about FIND-SYMBOL. Thanks.
2015-12-24T05:10:23Z Quadrescence: But, wait. That won't quite work, will it? If I have a symbol P::FOO, that won't imply P::FOO is accessible from PACKAGE.
2015-12-24T05:10:42Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: GUI colors would be "optional" slots, that some objects of class W have but not most other objects of class W.
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2015-12-24T05:11:04Z Quadrescence: pjb, It should be (eq symbol (find-symbol (symbol-name symbol) package)), no?
2015-12-24T05:11:06Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: but it works the same for properties that must be added or removed during the lifetime of the object.
2015-12-24T05:11:23Z pjb: Quadrescence: no, because it can be internal, non exported.
2015-12-24T05:11:36Z pjb: If you want to test for CL symbols, you want the external list.
2015-12-24T05:11:56Z pjb: CL may contain internal symbols (even if it would be good practice to avoid them, for an implementation).
2015-12-24T05:12:31Z Quadrescence: pjb, Why should it matter if it's internal or not? If a provided symbol happens to be one of the CL-internal symbols, it should be flagged as being a part of the CL package, despite it being exported.
2015-12-24T05:12:46Z Quadrescence: not being exported*
2015-12-24T05:12:55Z pjb: If you don't care about exported or not, then yes, you can compare with the symbol itself (unless you're testing NIL, then you still test the second result for NIL!).
2015-12-24T05:13:19Z pjb: I don't know, it depends on what you mean.
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2015-12-24T05:14:29Z pjb: (external-symbol-p s p) == (eq (nth 1 (symbol-name s) p) :external)
2015-12-24T05:14:53Z pjb: + find-name
2015-12-24T05:15:09Z pjb: find-symbol, ok, I should go to sleep…
2015-12-24T05:15:22Z pjb: (symbol-in-package-p s p) == (eq s (find-symbol (symbol-name s) p))
2015-12-24T05:16:01Z pjb: (symbol-in-package-p s p) == (nth-value 1  (find-symbol (symbol-name s) p)) ; works for NIL too.
2015-12-24T05:16:23Z Quadrescence: but the second one doesn't work for other symbols, correct?
2015-12-24T05:16:29Z Quadrescence: your "works for nil"
2015-12-24T05:16:37Z Quadrescence: because it's not accounting for the package of S
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2015-12-24T05:35:18Z pjb: (nth-value 1  (find-symbol (symbol-name s) p)) will work for all symbols, exported or not.
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2015-12-24T05:36:19Z pjb: Well, :inherited is returned when the symbol is accessible thru a use-package.  You may want to exclude them, so (member (find-symbol (symbol-name s) p) '(:external :internal)).
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2015-12-24T07:22:32Z mordocai: What's the easiest way to read an entire FD-STREAM into a single string (keeping newlines intact)? Having trouble finding a method that just does what I want, though it seems it would exist.
2015-12-24T07:24:47Z zdm: Regarding style, should I define all my global variables at the top of my program?
2015-12-24T07:24:47Z minion: zdm, memo from pjb: read the clhs random   (random 7) does not return an integer between 1 and 6 (inclusive).
2015-12-24T07:24:54Z Quadrescence: mordocai, Compute the length of the FD-STREAM, READ-SEQUENCE into it
2015-12-24T07:25:08Z Bicyclidine: alexandria has a read-file-into-string, but this method looks... strange
2015-12-24T07:25:13Z Quadrescence: zdm, Top of file is usually good, or global above the function it's primarily used
2015-12-24T07:25:32Z zdm: Thanks Quadrescence
2015-12-24T07:25:54Z Quadrescence: Bicyclidine, Alexandria is just doing a sort of buffered read.
2015-12-24T07:26:06Z Quadrescence: Bicyclidine, they are optimizing time gathering input from the stream
2015-12-24T07:26:22Z mordocai: read-file-into-string also wants a pathname per arg names, I already have a FD-STREAM (from mel-base)
2015-12-24T07:30:59Z mordocai: Having trouble finding docs on FD-STREAM. Anyone have a good link? Specifically looking for how to find the length.
2015-12-24T07:31:30Z Quadrescence: mordocai, FD-STREAM is an SBCL-specific thing. Just look at the docs for streams.
2015-12-24T07:31:43Z Quadrescence: Do you need some POSIX file-specific thing?
2015-12-24T07:32:07Z contrapunctus: Good day, folks.
2015-12-24T07:32:09Z zdm: pjb: You there
2015-12-24T07:32:10Z contrapunctus: Are there any hygienic macro libraries for Common Lisp? I couldn't find anything on Cliki or GitHub.
2015-12-24T07:32:20Z Bicyclidine: though file-length might work on it
2015-12-24T07:32:26Z mordocai: Quadrescence: Nah, I don't think so. General stream stuff will probably work.
2015-12-24T07:33:14Z Quadrescence: contrapunctus, I don't think I've ever seen hygienic macros used (or at all) in Common Lisp.
2015-12-24T07:33:57Z Quadrescence: from http://www.cliki.net/syntax-case : "It is controversial whether or not Common LISP would benefit from the addition of SYNTAX-CASE, and no implementations of SYNTAX-CASE for Common LISP are known of."
2015-12-24T07:34:00Z mordocai: Alright, file-length works. Now to turn it into something cl-ppcre:scan can operate on
2015-12-24T07:34:25Z contrapunctus: I see, Quadrescence . Thanks!
2015-12-24T07:34:48Z mordocai: Maybe I should just read-line + iterate rather than turning it into a big string. Seems likely more better
2015-12-24T07:34:53Z mordocai: s/more//
2015-12-24T07:35:20Z moore33: We are unhygienic.
2015-12-24T07:36:47Z Zhivago: mordocai: Length in units of?
2015-12-24T07:37:27Z mordocai: Zhivago: chars in this case I think, but file-length seems to work.
2015-12-24T07:40:29Z Zhivago: Be aware that file-length won't give you the number of characters in the file, in general -- due to multibyte character encodings such as utf-8.
2015-12-24T07:40:58Z Quadrescence: mordocai, do you know what regex you have?
2015-12-24T07:41:20Z Quadrescence: mordocai, if it's not too complicated and you know ahead of time, you might consider writing a parser yourself so you don't have to consume the whole stream
2015-12-24T07:44:03Z mordocai: Quadrescence: Regexes are configurable so I won't know ahead of time.
2015-12-24T07:45:19Z Quadrescence: mordocai, Can you describe the end-goal? Are you trying to detect whether a pattern exists in a file? Are you trying to extract parsed values?
2015-12-24T07:47:00Z zdm: I need to return a random number from 1 to 6 (random 7) returns a random number from 0 to 6. I'm not really sure what I should do, this is what I've come up with so for: https://pastee.org/s8sxs
2015-12-24T07:47:37Z zdm: The problem is if it is zero then what? Do another (random 7)? But what if thats 0 as well etc?
2015-12-24T07:47:49Z zdm: I have no idea what I could do to stop that lol
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2015-12-24T07:48:18Z mordocai: Quadrescence: Trying to detect whether a pattern exists in a file.
2015-12-24T07:48:23Z Bicyclidine: zdm: (1+ (random 6))
2015-12-24T07:48:38Z Quadrescence: mordocai, run grep on it? :)
2015-12-24T07:49:00Z zdm: Bicyclidine: Yeah but that will sometimes get me a 7.
2015-12-24T07:49:08Z Bicyclidine: no it won't
2015-12-24T07:49:09Z zdm: I need 1 to 6
2015-12-24T07:49:20Z mordocai: Quadrescence: It's for mail parsing. I could do that if I wanted to get the pathname from mel-base then run it on it but i'd rather do it in lisp.
2015-12-24T07:49:20Z Quadrescence: zdm, (random n) gives 0 to N-1, so (1+ (random n)) will give 1 to N
2015-12-24T07:49:26Z Bicyclidine: come on, think. (random 7) doesn't return a 7, so why would (random 6) return a 6?
2015-12-24T07:49:35Z mordocai: A legit suggestion though!
2015-12-24T07:50:00Z Quadrescence: mordocai, another suggestion, give a window size
2015-12-24T07:50:13Z mordocai: not familiar with the term
2015-12-24T07:50:18Z zdm: Bicyclidine: Ahh I see, thanks. I'm very new to programming
2015-12-24T07:50:23Z zdm: I didnt know about that function
2015-12-24T07:50:39Z Quadrescence: mordocai, look at strings of length N within the file instead of the whole file, where N is configurable
2015-12-24T07:50:42Z Bicyclidine: about... adding one?
2015-12-24T07:50:55Z zdm: Bicyclidine: I didnt know 1 could be a function
2015-12-24T07:51:07Z Quadrescence: zdm, (1+ x) = (+ 1 x)
2015-12-24T07:51:22Z Bicyclidine: it's not. "1+" is a function. It's just the same as (+ 1 (random 6))
2015-12-24T07:51:23Z Quadrescence: mordocai, you slide a window across your file, try a regex on that window, and if it fails, slide the window again
2015-12-24T07:51:34Z zdm: Oh okay
2015-12-24T07:52:59Z mordocai: Quadrescence: Seems on the surface more complicated than read-line iteration.
2015-12-24T07:53:16Z Quadrescence: mordocai, the difference is that this would allow regexes across newlines
2015-12-24T07:55:02Z mordocai: Quadrescence: Got it. Probably not worth the added complexity in my current use case but i'll keep it in mind.
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2015-12-24T08:03:56Z Quadrescence: mordocai, http://paste.lisp.org/display/302705
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2015-12-24T08:04:52Z Quadrescence: Your pattern checking regex would go in that FLET, or in some DEFUN. The number 2 in the example would be configurable somewhere on the length of the patterns to search for.
2015-12-24T08:05:12Z mordocai: Ah, nice.
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2015-12-24T08:17:58Z Quadrescence: mordocai, if it's not clear how it can be used, see: http://paste.lisp.org/display/302705#1
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2015-12-24T08:19:37Z mordocai: Quadrescence: Cool, yeah. Seems much more straightforward than I originally thought.
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2015-12-24T08:20:30Z Quadrescence: :)
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2015-12-24T08:28:40Z mordocai: Oh noes. :UTF-8 decoding error on a bunch of my emails.
2015-12-24T08:28:57Z mordocai: Weird, the server uses utf-8 AFAIK
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2015-12-24T08:36:56Z mordocai: So theoretically via mel:message-header-stream i'm only looking at the headers (which should be valid ASCII right, so a subset of UTF-8?) However, I still get this http://paste.lisp.org/display/303054. Character encodings are fun!
2015-12-24T08:38:40Z H4ns: mordocai: you should be prepared for latin-1 encoding in email headers
2015-12-24T08:39:41Z mordocai: H4ns: Hmmm... alright. I'll have to figure out how to make this stream read latin-1 then.
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2015-12-24T08:43:51Z mordocai: Ugh, is there a way to set the default character encoding for file streams? I can't find where in mel-base to set it (if there is somewhere)
2015-12-24T08:45:55Z H4ns: depends on your implementation. sbcl has sb-impl::*default-external-format*
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2015-12-24T08:46:17Z mordocai: That's probably what I want
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2015-12-24T08:49:00Z mordocai: Well mel-base is defintely not closing streams for me.
2015-12-24T08:49:09Z mordocai: Also, setting that seems to avoid the errors I was getting at least
2015-12-24T08:50:39Z mordocai: Well it is closing some of them. Bleh, i'll have to research that more
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2015-12-24T10:20:30Z mordocai: I feel completely useless. I'm getting http://paste.lisp.org/display/303056 while calling (cl-ppcre:create-scanner "^(From|To|Cc|Bcc|Delivered-To):.*(users@libreoffice.org|users@global.libreoffice.org)" <email string>. Any ideas?
2015-12-24T10:21:27Z mordocai: Per the docs it sounds like search is supposed to be able to take nil for its index based args so i'm kind've lost
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2015-12-24T10:23:05Z jackdaniel: Merry Christmas #lisp :-)
2015-12-24T10:23:10Z mordocai: Oh and the error is happening when I use the result of create-scanner, not when creating the scanner.
2015-12-24T10:23:27Z mordocai: jackdaniel: Merry Christmas. Is it christmas or Christmas Eve where you are?
2015-12-24T10:24:30Z jackdaniel: given it's 24th then Eve obviously, but I refere also to the two days after that
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2015-12-24T10:25:59Z mordocai: Hmmm... interesting. It appears it only breaks when doing (create-scanner :multi-line-mode t). Perhaps that is not how i'm supposed to use it.
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2015-12-24T10:34:48Z mordocai: In any case, if anyone wants to take a look at my issue see the paste above and the code here https://gitlab.com/mordocai/mailfilter-parse. I'm heading to bed but will stay logged in. Code is very WIP and was originally my first lisp code ever, comments welcome.
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2015-12-24T10:45:14Z Write-to-string: Anyone knows if embeddable common lisp is production ready for a big project?
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2015-12-24T10:52:48Z jackdaniel: Write-to-string: it is mature and used by a few commercial products (at least that's what I've heard of)
2015-12-24T10:52:54Z jackdaniel: but if you ask if it is bugfree - then no
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2015-12-24T10:53:57Z jackdaniel: it works best on posix platforms, so if you want to work with it on windows I'd recommend cygwin over msvc compiled version
2015-12-24T10:55:05Z jackdaniel: Write-to-string: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues
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2015-12-24T10:59:09Z DeadTrickster: well not so long ago critical bug in find! was fixed
2015-12-24T10:59:12Z DeadTrickster: big surprise
2015-12-24T10:59:41Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, can you give an example of that commercial product?
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2015-12-24T11:04:27Z jackdaniel: I by myself used it in a few embedded projects for my previous employer, but what I meant is based on comment on HN – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10135449
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2015-12-24T11:05:15Z jackdaniel: big suprise it was fixed or that it was found? <:
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2015-12-24T11:05:27Z DeadTrickster: nice
2015-12-24T11:05:34Z DeadTrickster: found bug in find of course
2015-12-24T11:06:29Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, lisp for embedded project? can you give specs hint?
2015-12-24T11:07:55Z jackdaniel: as far as I recall it was a daemon in the ramdisk responsible for performing updates of the device and resetting the nand memory
2015-12-24T11:08:10Z jackdaniel: for a20 soc
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2015-12-24T11:09:06Z jackdaniel: it coudln't be done with the shell script because we wanted some function from the library
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2015-12-24T13:12:43Z contrapunctus: Is it a bad idea to attempt to do (pure) FP in Common Lisp?
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2015-12-24T13:19:50Z nyef: Nothing wrong with floating-point in common lisp
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2015-12-24T13:21:55Z contrapunctus: ...
2015-12-24T13:22:09Z contrapunctus: nyef: very nice, now please :p
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2015-12-24T13:31:25Z jackdaniel: its a good fit, but most libs arent fp
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2015-12-24T13:38:49Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: I see
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2015-12-24T16:26:51Z loke_: Merry christmas Lisp!
2015-12-24T16:29:07Z phoe_krk:     ()
2015-12-24T16:29:08Z phoe_krk:    ()()
2015-12-24T16:29:08Z phoe_krk:   ()()()
2015-12-24T16:29:08Z phoe_krk:     ;; merry christmas #lisp
2015-12-24T16:29:40Z phoe_krk: that almost looks like a christmas tree.
2015-12-24T16:30:19Z myrkraverk: Gledileg jol, #lisp.
2015-12-24T16:30:30Z phoe_krk: Wesołych świąt, #lisp.
2015-12-24T16:31:59Z loke_: Yay
2015-12-24T16:32:09Z loke_: Isn't there a christmas tree emoji?
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2015-12-24T16:32:54Z beach: Good evening everyone!  And merry whatever-you-want-to-celebrate!
2015-12-24T16:32:54Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: Allez, cadeaux de Noël en avance: a good half hour of hilarity: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1637.pdf   (that said, surely if we were to write down a formal semantics of CL we'd have problems too, but I feel they'd be less dire).
2015-12-24T16:33:02Z loke_: 🎄
2015-12-24T16:33:05Z loke_: There is is
2015-12-24T16:33:11Z phoe_krk: loke_: it even displays on my Thunderbird
2015-12-24T16:33:18Z phoe_krk: nick phoe_🎄
2015-12-24T16:33:26Z phoe_krk: oh, wait, it won't let me.
2015-12-24T16:33:30Z loke_: I'm displaying it in my emacs, running in tmux on a remote machine that I'm sshed into
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2015-12-24T16:34:00Z loke_: And this is an astral plane codepoint, so I'm glad to see that Unicode finally works in the world :-)
2015-12-24T16:34:35Z moore33: beach: À toi également!
2015-12-24T16:34:53Z myrkraverk: It works in SM chatzilla here.
2015-12-24T16:35:00Z beach: moore33: We have splendid weather.  You too?
2015-12-24T16:35:07Z myrkraverk: It probably wouldn't if I'd be using erc on xemacs.
2015-12-24T16:35:18Z loke_: 26° here
2015-12-24T16:35:21Z loke_: Very nice
2015-12-24T16:35:21Z moore33: beach: Not so much. Very cloudy, with some rain. But quite warm.
2015-12-24T16:35:32Z myrkraverk: My A/C says 28.
2015-12-24T16:35:39Z myrkraverk: Not sure if I believe it.
2015-12-24T16:36:41Z loke_: myrkraverk: 28° indoors our outdoors?
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2015-12-24T16:37:27Z myrkraverk: I'm indoors, but I'm not sure what the A/C is telling me.  The A/C is set to 25, but it says 28, so I think that's the outdoor heat.
2015-12-24T16:37:58Z myrkraverk: I'm going to try setting it to 22, and hopefully I get a reasonable indoor heat.
2015-12-24T16:38:28Z loke_: myrkraverk: Sounds nice. Simialr to here. Where are you at?
2015-12-24T16:38:44Z myrkraverk: Manila.
2015-12-24T16:39:03Z loke_: Ah. I'm visiting Manila for a wedding in feb
2015-12-24T16:39:24Z beach: The opportunity for a Lisp meeting with food and drink.
2015-12-24T16:39:39Z myrkraverk: Well, if we can meet for a $beverage, that'd be nice.  At worst I'll be visiting some other country at the time.
2015-12-24T16:39:42Z loke_: Would be awesome, but I'm only staying 2 nights.
2015-12-24T16:40:02Z myrkraverk: I see, that'll leave you with tight schedule.
2015-12-24T16:40:09Z loke_: myrkraverk: You are filipino?
2015-12-24T16:40:28Z phoe_krk: $beverage?
2015-12-24T16:40:28Z DeadTrickster: I read about Manila somewhere
2015-12-24T16:40:30Z myrkraverk: Mine is usually flexible, so I may be able to wing something, if you can spare some time.
2015-12-24T16:40:36Z DeadTrickster: it was crypto-something
2015-12-24T16:40:50Z myrkraverk: phoe_krk: you prefer *beverage* ?
2015-12-24T16:40:57Z phoe_krk: myrkraverk: yes, #php is a few channels away~
2015-12-24T16:41:10Z DeadTrickster: that was harsh
2015-12-24T16:41:22Z myrkraverk: I thought $ was a legit symbol character.
2015-12-24T16:41:30Z phadthai: noyeux joel
2015-12-24T16:41:32Z phoe_krk: it is, /me just dislikes php.
2015-12-24T16:41:36Z loke_: myrkraverk: I'll see. It depends on when I arrive. I'll let you know, but it's unlikely based on what I know.
2015-12-24T16:41:53Z phoe_krk: (defvar $beverage "beer") works.
2015-12-24T16:41:59Z loke_: phoe_krk: I read it as shellscript
2015-12-24T16:42:01Z myrkraverk: phoe_krk: $is not exclusive to php, it's also shell script, perl, and several other languages.
2015-12-24T16:42:19Z myrkraverk: And no, I'm not philipino.
2015-12-24T16:42:21Z phoe_krk: myrkraverk: ouch. okay, hint taken.
2015-12-24T16:42:46Z loke_: myrkraverk: You're not travelling towards .sg ever?
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2015-12-24T16:43:28Z phoe_krk: okay, see you later #xmasparens
2015-12-24T16:43:34Z myrkraverk: I have no idea where I might travel, so I can't say.  I'm really not much for traveling (to see places, I travel to see people).
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2015-12-24T16:43:56Z loke_: myrkraverk: I figured you might travel for work :-)
2015-12-24T16:44:53Z myrkraverk: So far, I've been spared that indignity in this $job, and when there have been business travels, it's to .th or .jp.
2015-12-24T16:45:21Z loke_: I see. For me it's mainly .in, .au or .ko
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2015-12-24T16:45:26Z loke_: I mean .kr
2015-12-24T16:45:38Z myrkraverk: Ah.
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2015-12-24T16:54:32Z Mini_Evo: Hi guys, do you know if it's possible to get all the even or odd indexes in a list using remove-if? e.g. for even ("cat" "dog" "mouse" "hamster") --> ("dog" "hamster"))
2015-12-24T16:55:04Z beach: Mini_Evo: Why would you use REMOVE-IF for that?
2015-12-24T16:55:16Z beach: Oh, homework?
2015-12-24T16:55:50Z myrkraverk: I think it's easy to do this with (loop ...) ?
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2015-12-24T16:56:12Z Mini_Evo: I'd like something similar to (remove-if-not #'evenp '(1 2 3 4 5))
2015-12-24T16:56:41Z myrkraverk: Mini_Evo: you can do that with loop and collect, at first glance.
2015-12-24T16:56:45Z Mini_Evo: and the implementation doesn't matter, I'm just wondering what the easiet way to do it would be
2015-12-24T16:57:10Z Mini_Evo: I know in clojure there's a take-nth function that does exactly what I want
2015-12-24T16:57:22Z Mini_Evo: see: https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/take-nth
2015-12-24T16:57:23Z beach: myrkraverk: I am betting it's a homework assignment, and that LOOP is not allowed.
2015-12-24T16:57:34Z myrkraverk: beach: hmm, maybe.
2015-12-24T16:57:49Z Mini_Evo: It's not homework, I'm trying to do some of the AdventOfCode solutions
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2015-12-24T16:57:56Z moore33: beach: Re my inquiries about slot documentation and stuff yesterday... I don't really want slot documentation, but documentation of the accessors. And I *really* don't want to write defgeneric forms for each accessor, even if the class is a protocol class and shouldn't really have slots. Which leads me back to mcclim's define-protocol-class, which I apparently wrote in 2006 :)
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2015-12-24T16:58:31Z loke_: Mini_Evo: Is this homework?
2015-12-24T16:58:34Z myrkraverk: Mini_Evo: read the gigamonkeys chapter on loop for black belts, you should grok what I mean then.
2015-12-24T16:58:42Z Mini_Evo: loke_: nope :)
2015-12-24T16:58:53Z beach: moore33: It really isn't that bad an idea to write defgeneric forms for the slot accessors.  That way you get the right names for the parameters, for instance, rather than OBJECT.
2015-12-24T16:59:23Z moore33: beach: Good point, though I tend to use OBJ anyway.
2015-12-24T16:59:32Z beach: Hmm.
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2015-12-24T16:59:48Z loke_: Mini_Evo: then use LOOP like a sane person would.
2015-12-24T17:00:06Z moore33: Perhaps a turbo-charged define-protocol-class macro could give a nice variable name in the defgeneric form.
2015-12-24T17:00:18Z beach: Possibly.
2015-12-24T17:00:47Z loke_: (loop for x in the-list by #'cddr collect x)
2015-12-24T17:00:59Z moore33: Anyway, that's for version 0.0.1; hoping to get 0.0.0 out in time for Père Noël to pass by.
2015-12-24T17:01:17Z beach: moore33: Looking forward to it.
2015-12-24T17:01:31Z loke_: moore33: 0.0.0 of what?
2015-12-24T17:02:02Z beach: loke_: It really doesn't matter.  Whatever moore33 is going to get out is interesting. :)
2015-12-24T17:02:08Z moore33: loke_: An OpenGL rendering library for CL, called lpsg.
2015-12-24T17:02:15Z loke_: beach: I don't disagree with that.
2015-12-24T17:02:20Z loke_: moore33: Oh, neat.
2015-12-24T17:02:26Z myrkraverk: (loop for x in the-list for i from 1 when (whatever-it-is i) collect x) allows greater control, you could use fibonacci-p or whatever.
2015-12-24T17:02:46Z moore33: loke_: Basically, it will do the modern tricks to reduce traffic between CPU and GPU.
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2015-12-24T17:07:15Z myrkraverk: A question about terminology, if I code a (fibonacci-p number) to compute the next fibonacci number on a successful hit, meaning it assumes numbers are checked in non-decreasing sequence, is that dynamic programming?
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2015-12-24T17:11:36Z loke_: myrkraverk: I'm not sure what you ask? :-)
2015-12-24T17:11:54Z beach: I don't think so.  But then, dynamic programming is a pretty fuzzy term.
2015-12-24T17:12:32Z myrkraverk: IIRC, the term dynamic programming is used for code that remembers stuff, that is, caches results.  Though the last time I came across it was in a book by Knuth.
2015-12-24T17:12:46Z myrkraverk: So i'm not even sure if the term is used this century.
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2015-12-24T17:13:00Z beach: It is still used.
2015-12-24T17:13:25Z loke_: What's wrong with using the word "caching"? :-)
2015-12-24T17:13:33Z myrkraverk: C:
2015-12-24T17:13:38Z myrkraverk: Nothing.
2015-12-24T17:13:57Z beach: loke_: In the case of "dynamic programming", convention, as usual.
2015-12-24T17:14:38Z loke_: good, because the word I use. I've never liked words like "memoisation", since I have never seen any case where the people using it wasn't actually talking about caching.
2015-12-24T17:14:55Z myrkraverk: I was unable to see the dynamic part in the code in Knuth's book.  So I guess I'm just trying to understand the term.
2015-12-24T17:15:39Z beach: Actually, the "programming" part is the confusing one.  They use it as in "linear programming" i.e. establishing a "program" (not related to computers).
2015-12-24T17:15:45Z myrkraverk: I guess "memoisation" is good when you need to distinguish it from hw caching.
2015-12-24T17:15:50Z Bicyclidine: dynamic programming doesn't mean caching, though it often goes well with caching
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2015-12-24T17:16:07Z myrkraverk: beach: I see.
2015-12-24T17:16:20Z loke_: Bicyclidine: Yes. Caching is a dyanamic programming tool.
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2015-12-24T17:16:37Z loke_: But the term "dynamic programming" is somewhat pointless in my opinion.
2015-12-24T17:16:52Z Bicyclidine: it made more sense when it was new.
2015-12-24T17:17:00Z loke_: Bicyclidine: Yes. Agreed.
2015-12-24T17:17:12Z beach: loke_: Most terms are "pointless" that way.  We just need words for certain phenomena.
2015-12-24T17:17:33Z beach: loke_: A "simple rewrite system" is not simple in any usual meaning of the term "simple".
2015-12-24T17:17:36Z loke_: beach: I dunno. "caching" is a pretty useful word even today
2015-12-24T17:17:54Z beach: But they don't mean the same thing.  Caching is more general.
2015-12-24T17:17:55Z loke_: "closure" is pretty useful too
2015-12-24T17:18:09Z loke_: beach: Compared to what?
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2015-12-24T17:18:23Z beach: Dynamic programming.
2015-12-24T17:18:36Z loke_: I was just mentioning words that are useful, trying to challenge the statement that "most terms are pointless"
2015-12-24T17:18:53Z beach: Well, caching is pointless, in that you don't actually stick things in your pocket.
2015-12-24T17:18:53Z loke_: beach: I wasn't talking about it in terms of dynamic programming. I've left that subject already :-)
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2015-12-24T17:19:37Z loke_: Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gwXJsWHupg
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2015-12-24T17:46:50Z akkad: Edi's book is not avail until the 30th. damn
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2015-12-24T17:47:06Z loke_: 30'th of what month?
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2015-12-24T17:47:41Z tankfeeder: hi
2015-12-24T17:48:09Z moore33: akkad: Got a link to the book?
2015-12-24T17:48:34Z beach: Hello tankfeeder.
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2015-12-24T17:49:23Z akkad: moore33: http://www.apress.com/9781484211779
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2015-12-24T17:49:59Z tankfeeder: maybe somebody have list of exercises to solve in lisp ?!
2015-12-24T17:50:23Z tankfeeder: still googling...
2015-12-24T17:50:37Z akkad: tankfeeder https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/3y3324/lisp_exercises/
2015-12-24T17:50:46Z tankfeeder: maybe from university courses
2015-12-24T17:50:50Z tankfeeder: yes, my post.
2015-12-24T17:50:59Z akkad: tankfeeder: https://github.com/google/lisp-koans
2015-12-24T17:51:21Z tankfeeder: i gonna implement this one
2015-12-24T17:51:22Z tankfeeder: http://www.eecs.yorku.ca/course_archive/2005-06/F/3401/LispProg.pdf
2015-12-24T17:51:26Z beach: tankfeeder: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~idurand/enseignement/lst-info/PFS/
2015-12-24T17:52:33Z beach: tankfeeder: More precisely: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~idurand/enseignement/lst-info/PFS/TD/feuilles/
2015-12-24T17:53:44Z tankfeeder: 10x
2015-12-24T17:54:30Z beach: Tenex?  As in the operating system?
2015-12-24T17:54:42Z akkad: I think he means GECOS
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2015-12-24T17:56:07Z hitecnologys: Is there any easy way to convert simple-date's timestamp to local-time's one or make postmodern use local-time instead?
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2015-12-24T17:59:13Z loke_: hitecnologys: What does a simple-date timestamp look like?
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2015-12-24T17:59:56Z hitecnologys: loke_: you mean what's it printed like or what's inside?
2015-12-24T18:00:28Z loke_: hitecnologys: Wait, you're saying postmodern uses simple-date objects for positional DATETIME parameters?
2015-12-24T18:00:41Z hitecnologys: loke_: seems to.
2015-12-24T18:01:08Z hitecnologys: loke_: last time I tried passing local-time's one it errored.
2015-12-24T18:01:11Z loke_: hitecnologys: Well, can't you use Unix time or ISO-8601 timestamps? Both should be able to handle those.
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2015-12-24T18:01:36Z hitecnologys: loke_: that's what I'm trying to do now but it doesn't seem quite right. =P
2015-12-24T18:02:14Z hitecnologys: loke_: alright then, I'll stick to that method. Thanks.
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2015-12-24T18:29:16Z hppavilion[1]: I'm making a LISP targetted at mathematics teachers and researchers :)
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2015-12-24T18:32:08Z Fare: Looking for proofreaders for chapter 7: https://github.com/Ngnghm/ngnghm.github.io/blob/master/_src/posts/8888-88-88-chapter-7.md
2015-12-24T18:32:28Z Fare: Hoping to release it for Gravmas.
2015-12-24T18:36:46Z nyef: Fare: The second paragraph alone reminds me of Smalltalk-80.
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2015-12-24T18:41:00Z pjb: Joyeux Noël !  Merry Christmas!  ¡Feliz Navidad!
2015-12-24T18:41:55Z pjb: zdm: I'm here for 20 mn ;-)
2015-12-24T18:42:38Z ukari: xmas!
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2015-12-24T18:53:36Z pjb: Actually terms line "dynamic programming" are rather frigtening when you consider their original need: they denote that most programmers at the time were ALREADY in tracks, and new terms had to be invented to let them see or allow to write programs differently.
2015-12-24T18:53:44Z pjb: s
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2015-12-24T18:53:49Z pjb: s/line/like/
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2015-12-24T18:55:52Z pjb: hppavilion[1]: have a look at ACL2.
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2015-12-24T18:56:06Z hppavilion[1]: pjb: NEVAAAAAAAAAAR.
2015-12-24T18:56:08Z hppavilion[1]: OK
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2015-12-24T18:56:41Z pjb: Otherwise CL is used by mathematicans and researchers to good effects. See for example some of Irène Durand's papers.
2015-12-24T18:57:53Z hppavilion[1]: pjb: Mine is more for teachers and such. It's planned to come with a pretty web interface so that the instructor can broadcast what's going on in the language to the screens of pupils through the browser
2015-12-24T18:58:08Z hppavilion[1]: I doubt it'll ever come into use, but it's fun to make
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2015-12-24T18:59:08Z hppavilion[1]: And it'll probably have a few features that'd be stupid in other languages- for example, a #restrict-side-effects flag at the top of the program that blocks certain builtin control constructucts deemed "bad for math"- e.g. the while loop.
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2015-12-24T19:02:29Z hppavilion[1]: AND it'll come with snazzy default GUIs that can be used to visualize what you're doing without having to tell the computer how that works. For example, the grapher GUI, which incorportes a function (graph f) that accepts a function f with a single argument "x", and repeatedly feeds it x across the board and draws lines between the previous point and the point calculated at that position.
2015-12-24T19:02:49Z hppavilion[1]: Well, maybe it'll be (graph f c), where c is the canvas it points to
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2015-12-24T19:09:20Z pjb: hppavilion[1]: such collaborative pedagogical features are indeed interesting in this context, and even in some others (think pair programming for example :-)).  Even early pedagogical systems such as LSE in France had features like that (you could copy the workspace of one user to another, so that a teacher could debug pupils programs, or pupils could see teacher's program).
2015-12-24T19:09:59Z hppavilion[1]: pjb: Yep. I think that it could genuinely be a useful tool if people were to take it seriously xD
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2015-12-24T19:10:02Z pjb: hppavilion[1]: when deploying later systems such as for examples Mac networks, this was often a feature required and dded by vendors.
2015-12-24T19:10:30Z pjb: hppavilion[1]: Nowdays, you would just screen share.
2015-12-24T19:10:55Z pjb: Some screen sharing features are nice, allowing you to share only part of a screen or a single window.
2015-12-24T19:11:15Z pjb: (cf. Skype, Remote Desktop, etc).
2015-12-24T19:11:27Z hppavilion[1]: Yeah
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2015-12-24T19:11:40Z pjb: But of course, it's at a lower level, without specific semantics.
2015-12-24T19:11:50Z pjb: You may provide smarter tools.
2015-12-24T19:12:01Z hppavilion[1]: The idea behind what I'm making though is that it isn't a screen share because it isn't a program (well, it is, but not like a GUIy program), it's a language.
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2015-12-24T19:12:21Z hppavilion[1]: It's a way of broadcasting the IO (and probably your voice) to people connected
2015-12-24T19:12:29Z pjb: Somebody worked on a "shared" REPL, I don't remember the name.
2015-12-24T19:13:05Z pjb: bbl
2015-12-24T19:13:46Z hppavilion[1]: So they can see, for example, what happens when you graph ax**2+bx+c, which is represented by (func (x) (* <a> (** x 2)) (* <b> x) (<c>)) into (graph)
2015-12-24T19:14:06Z hppavilion[1]: The general idea is to make it a complete online mathematics classroom
2015-12-24T19:14:19Z hppavilion[1]: And, by extension, programming
2015-12-24T19:14:31Z hppavilion[1]: Integrated with a powerful programming language
2015-12-24T19:15:22Z hppavilion[1]: So you'd be able to turn in assignments via form submission, to indicate that you have a question, and to slack off on the student side
2015-12-24T19:15:24Z DJ_BITCON: perl
2015-12-24T19:15:33Z hppavilion[1]: Whereas the teacher would have access to an augmented whiteboard, essentially
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2015-12-24T19:16:11Z hppavilion[1]: One which allows them to directly graph functions and such in a simple fashion
2015-12-24T19:16:27Z hppavilion[1]: Students would be able to execute code in their personal environment to test out what happens
2015-12-24T19:16:47Z hppavilion[1]: Of course, this would all be a huge load for the professor's computer if they aren't using a dedicated server
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2015-12-24T19:17:53Z hppavilion[1]: Students could take a snapshot of the teacher's environment to mess with it on their own...
2015-12-24T19:17:56Z hppavilion[1]: It'd be glorious
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2015-12-24T19:18:51Z hppavilion[1]: I might even add multiple languages to it
2015-12-24T19:20:19Z hppavilion[1]: Only problem I could think of is the teacher turning off the server when they're done and preventing the pupils from doing further testing without downloading the entire suite
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2015-12-24T19:20:32Z moore33: happavilion[1]: Sounds like you have your work cut out for you :) Are you familiar with Maxima and the other computer algebra systems?
2015-12-24T19:20:41Z hppavilion[1]: moore33: Not particularly
2015-12-24T19:20:47Z hppavilion[1]: That and broadcasting voice
2015-12-24T19:21:07Z moore33: happavilion[1]: You might want to check them out.
2015-12-24T19:21:10Z hppavilion[1]: Also, teaching professors to port forward for the HTTP if the students are learning remotely might be an issue
2015-12-24T19:21:26Z hppavilion[1]: moore33: I was planning on doing that at some point in the development cycle
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2015-12-24T19:23:24Z hppavilion[1]: Ooh! Ooh! And the classroom page would be customizable by editing a config file and replacing certain fixed-location files! So you could have the college (or school)'s logo at the corner of the page
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2015-12-24T19:34:59Z holymoo: has anyone managed to compile lispkit successfully?  I get "Package UIOP does not exist.
2015-12-24T19:35:08Z holymoo: error message that is
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2015-12-24T20:03:53Z Fare: uiop comes from asdf
2015-12-24T20:03:57Z Fare: what's lispkit?
2015-12-24T20:04:09Z Fare: try (require "asdf")
2015-12-24T20:04:28Z holymoo: lispkit is this --> https://github.com/AeroNotix/lispkit
2015-12-24T20:04:44Z holymoo: AeroNotix started a browser project wrapping webkit in lisp interface
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2015-12-24T20:06:01Z holymoo: his source seems to actually setup a local quicklisp repo by the looks of it, so when i run make, it tries to load up bordeaux from the local folder.  however the failure includes the uiop missing ... and it may be related to the local quicklisp repo his scripts setup.
2015-12-24T20:06:42Z holymoo: not exaclty sure right now
2015-12-24T20:07:32Z Fare: quicklisp does a (require "asdf") already. Are you using an antique implementation that only has ASDF 2 ?
2015-12-24T20:07:47Z holymoo: i'm on debian 7 ... i don't think so
2015-12-24T20:07:58Z Fare: which implementation do you use?
2015-12-24T20:08:04Z holymoo: sbcl
2015-12-24T20:08:10Z Fare: try this: (require "asdf") (asdf:asdf-version)
2015-12-24T20:08:40Z holymoo: version 2.22 it seems
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2015-12-24T20:09:09Z Fare: that's ancient
2015-12-24T20:09:16Z holymoo: oh!
2015-12-24T20:09:36Z holymoo: if that is the case, let me try debian 8 then, that should have something newer
2015-12-24T20:09:44Z holymoo: thank you for the tip
2015-12-24T20:11:18Z Pixel_Outlaw: Debian in general tends to offer very well tested but slightly older packages.
2015-12-24T20:11:50Z Fare: or you can install a recent asdf on top of it
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2015-12-24T20:13:03Z holymoo: yeah, i'll try a vm first and fiddle with asdf later locally
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2015-12-24T20:16:14Z pjb: hppavilion[1]: have you read Asimov's Foundation trilogy?
2015-12-24T20:16:29Z hppavilion[1]: pjb: Not yet
2015-12-24T20:16:32Z hppavilion[1]: I should at some point
2015-12-24T20:18:44Z pjb: Well, in this case, the interesting part is happily extracted here: http://interconnected.org/home/more/2012/03/seldonsplan.html  Read it.  I cannot imagine anybody writing software for mathematicians without having read and dreamed that.
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2015-12-24T20:27:57Z hppavilion[1]: "It is part of your qualification that you knew you would qualify."
2015-12-24T20:28:07Z hppavilion[1]: ._.
2015-12-24T20:28:12Z hppavilion[1]: ,_,
2015-12-24T20:28:18Z hppavilion[1]: ._.
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2015-12-24T20:44:05Z mordocai: holymoo: Btw, your question is quite old now, but I just compile sbcl for debian stable myself rather than relying on debian packages. apt-get build-dep sbcl downloaded all the deps for me.
2015-12-24T20:44:17Z mordocai: I then just pull down the git repo and ./make.sh
2015-12-24T20:44:23Z mordocai: then ./install.sh of course
2015-12-24T20:44:53Z holymoo: oh!
2015-12-24T20:45:22Z mordocai: It takes maybe ten minutes on my linode vps? Not too long for sure.
2015-12-24T20:45:35Z holymoo: that makes the most sense actually.  i am hesitant to move to debian 8 anyway so that will help me stay on 7 for a while longer
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2015-12-24T20:46:41Z mordocai: Yeah, I actually mix stable/testing but that gives me a bad taste in my mouth so I try to avoid it whenever I can by compiling instead.
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2015-12-24T20:47:24Z holymoo: Fare: you were 100% correct.  I needed a newer version of asdf.
2015-12-24T20:47:36Z holymoo: time to upgrade my local sbcl / asdf
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2015-12-24T20:55:47Z Fare: holymoo, I wrote uiop, so I should know.
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2015-12-24T20:56:02Z Fare: (and I rewrote asdf, several times)
2015-12-24T20:56:06Z Fare: (and it still sucks)
2015-12-24T20:56:15Z Fare: (but a bit less)
2015-12-24T20:56:39Z holymoo: oh, thats you!  i have seen your presentation of asdf ... hmm i forget which version.
2015-12-24T20:56:51Z holymoo: thank you kindly for your work by the way, i really appreciate it
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2015-12-24T21:27:23Z mordocai: Could this be caused by handing a very large string to a cl-ppcre scanner? http://paste.lisp.org/display/303091. The code works on a bunch of strings then suddenly fails and i'm wondering if it is the string's size or something else going on?
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2015-12-24T21:28:15Z dim: could be. can you try the same thing with CCL?
2015-12-24T21:28:52Z mordocai: Potentially, it'd be a little bit of work since I have at least one thing that is currently sbcl specific.
2015-12-24T21:29:55Z prxq: mordocai: if it is the length of the string, then the size of the heap should make a difference.
2015-12-24T21:30:05Z prxq: that is, maybe it helps to start with more heap.
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2015-12-24T21:30:25Z prxq: and if it doesn't crash => there's your answer :-)
2015-12-24T21:31:41Z mordocai goes to look up how to configure sbcl heap size
2015-12-24T21:31:41Z physixer: can anyone clarify how semantics is nothing but a "high level" definition of a program? e.g., 'insertion-sort algorithm' implemention is a program, but 'sort' is its semantics? that's it or is it more than that?
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2015-12-24T21:32:11Z holymoo: neat, lispkit can be controlled from emacs.  That could be useful for web development.
2015-12-24T21:32:57Z mordocai: holymoo: Yeah, I was thinking about trying that out so I could move my last missing thing into emacs. (web browsing)
2015-12-24T21:33:45Z holymoo: what i always hate is having to either program another browser to referesh by time intervals or use a mouse to reload.  very annoying.
2015-12-24T21:34:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: "Web browser made with webkit" What else is left to implement?
2015-12-24T21:35:12Z prxq: browsing within emacs is for the accomplished fakir
2015-12-24T21:35:44Z holymoo: i'm not sure actually.  by the looks of it there is quite a bit going on here
2015-12-24T21:35:58Z prxq: i'd rather use a mouse to reload in firefox a million times.
2015-12-24T21:36:23Z holymoo: not me. i want to update the css / html and hit a keystroke in emacs and have it reload for me
2015-12-24T21:36:52Z prxq: I just hit the mouse with the flat hand, and hit f5. Boom, it loads.
2015-12-24T21:37:19Z prxq: (the first stroke shifts focus from emacs to firefox)
2015-12-24T21:37:37Z holymoo: well there is no need to do that.  there are extensions to automatically reload
2015-12-24T21:38:14Z prxq: then why do you need to browse from emacs, where you still need to hit a key?
2015-12-24T21:38:29Z holymoo: because reload extensions are based on time intervals.
2015-12-24T21:38:31Z holymoo: its just wrong
2015-12-24T21:39:11Z holymoo: the browser should only do what i tell it to when i tell it to using the tool i choose.  using a mouse is mostly useless for most tasks.
2015-12-24T21:40:06Z holymoo: hows that for pedantic?
2015-12-24T21:40:17Z prxq: pretty far up the scale :-)
2015-12-24T21:43:32Z holymoo: keep in mind that i run a graphica environment primarily with keystrokes.  slim session manager, stumpwm window manager, conkeror for web browser, emacs for text editing.  everything is keyboard driven.  only need to use a mouse is for graphic design and even then it would best be replaced with a proper pen tool that is directionally aware (doesn't exist yet).
2015-12-24T21:44:34Z holymoo: the mouse pointer metaphor  xerox came up with is a fine idea but it just got out of hand.
2015-12-24T21:46:22Z nyef: holymoo: What do you mean by "a proper pen tool that is directionally aware"? You mean like one of the high-end Wacom setups?
2015-12-24T21:47:17Z prxq: holymoo: I use xfce with mostly default settings and a cheap logitech mouse. To each his own, I guess.
2015-12-24T21:47:19Z pjb: holymoo: It's not xerox that came up with that idea, it's Douglas Engelbart.
2015-12-24T21:47:21Z holymoo: nyef: i used to use that but i discovered that they make what is basically a laser mouse in a pen format.  it mostly works but it is simply not orientation aware so you have to watch your hand orientation.
2015-12-24T21:47:35Z pjb: holymoo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Engelbart
2015-12-24T21:47:54Z holymoo: i'm interesting in seeing if i can solve that problem and add pressure sensitivity and voila.  no need for working around wacom patents, its just a mouse
2015-12-24T21:48:20Z pjb: holymoo: it was the SRI, not Xerox.
2015-12-24T21:48:48Z Fare: actually, could lispkit be used to archive every site I ever watch?
2015-12-24T21:49:15Z Fare: if possible including what I see on facebook.
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2015-12-24T21:49:32Z holymoo: prxq: *nod* i have worked my way down from graphics interfaces through xfce and simply threw them all away.  there just is no need for anything considered a 'desktop environment' in my humble opinion.  i only need a window manager, and some daft lisp genious made stumpwm ... which is coincidentally nifty
2015-12-24T21:49:36Z Fare: I want to be able to search it, even when things were deleted
2015-12-24T21:49:41Z holymoo: pjb: oh! i had no idea, i am reading.
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2015-12-24T21:50:24Z pjb: holymoo: notice the date! 1968 http://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/library/extra4/sloan/MouseSite/1968Demo.html
2015-12-24T21:50:45Z holymoo: pjb: jesus.  we haven't moved forward much, have we?
2015-12-24T21:50:48Z pjb: Nothing's been invented in computing after the 60s.
2015-12-24T21:50:56Z holymoo: he died two years ago ... wow
2015-12-24T21:51:18Z pjb: Only the electronicians make smaller faster chips, but systems and programming, still the same.
2015-12-24T21:51:32Z pjb: Not surprising, given that no research is done anymore in those domains.
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2015-12-24T21:51:48Z Kitlith: Quantum computing might be something, but...
2015-12-24T21:51:58Z physixer: 1String. Boy this is embarrasing.
2015-12-24T21:51:58Z holymoo: holycanoly, this guy came up with some amazing ideas
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2015-12-24T21:52:15Z holymoo: he created a stenotype interface too ... wow
2015-12-24T21:52:17Z pjb: Only vile commercialization.
2015-12-24T21:52:25Z Bicyclidine: quantum is more of a co-processor thing, anyway
2015-12-24T21:52:47Z pjb: Kitlith: you would still have to invent new systems and new languages, but what will happen is that we'll wrap it under a linux box.
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2015-12-24T21:53:54Z Bicyclidine: and, not to diminish it too much, but shrinking transistors is a matter of physics. it's a pretty different ballgame from good programming, which is about complex interinteracting systems, which we are generally bad at
2015-12-24T21:54:15Z holymoo: pjb: funny you mention that.  i was thinking about open-genera and what a re-implementation would look like.  basically, the only thing that would make sense is to re-implement it as a run time on top of linux ... or whatever.
2015-12-24T21:54:27Z Kitlith: That is why there was a "but..." at the end of it. Of course, linux is viral. It (eventually) runs on anything.
2015-12-24T21:55:51Z holymoo: Bicyclidine: i was trying to get an old piece of software running on windows nt4 a few months ago.  nt4 iso is tiny.
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2015-12-24T21:56:18Z holymoo: it is amazing what programmers were able to do in the 80's
2015-12-24T21:56:47Z holymoo: pjb: thank you for the link.
2015-12-24T21:57:08Z pjb: holymoo: yep.  genera is a lisp machine system started in 1973. (That's still the 60s in terms of CS ;-) )
2015-12-24T21:57:45Z pjb: holymoo: you mean the 60s. In the 80s they just rewrote everything for the third time, on microprocessors that time so that they could be sold to millions of users.
2015-12-24T21:57:50Z hppavilion[1]: pjb: Which 60s? The 0060s?
2015-12-24T21:57:54Z pjb: 1960s.
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2015-12-24T21:58:16Z hppavilion[1]: Ah
2015-12-24T21:58:31Z holymoo: pjb: heh, you are probably right.
2015-12-24T21:58:44Z Kitlith: The research we need these days is how to write things without bloat...
2015-12-24T21:58:45Z Walex2: around 1980 a large UNIX system with 4MB of RAM xcould support 40 users (and paravirtual machines!)
2015-12-24T21:59:19Z pjb: Kitlith: cf. Alan Kay's http://vpri.org
2015-12-24T21:59:21Z holymoo: Walex2: they had paravirtualization back then?
2015-12-24T21:59:41Z prxq: each as much computing power as a pocket calculator, I bet.
2015-12-24T21:59:58Z Walex2: holymoo: CP/CMS 67 on IBM 360/67 is early 70s, full virtualization
2015-12-24T22:00:07Z holymoo: wow. i had no idea.
2015-12-24T22:00:51Z pjb: holymoo: virtualization was invented when they left the 1401, to let corporation run their 1401 programs on the 360.
2015-12-24T22:00:55Z Walex2: in the 50s the aif force wanted a josphson junction very low temp supercomputer for missile tracking
2015-12-24T22:01:05Z Walex2: pjb: that was mostly sw virtualization
2015-12-24T22:01:12Z pjb: Yes.
2015-12-24T22:01:46Z pjb: Then in following models of 360 they added virtualization of the 360 so that each users would have a whole virtual 360 at his disposal.
2015-12-24T22:02:15Z Walex2: holymoo: in the Knuth book "art of computer programming" vol 1 first published in the early 1980s one of the chapters is about developing a full MIX virtual machine.
2015-12-24T22:02:33Z holymoo: this conversation reminds of the dilbert cartoon where the greybeard unix dude throws dilbert a quarter and tells him to get a real computer
2015-12-24T22:02:49Z pjb: Walex2: the 1401 architecture was completely different from the 360.  360 is basically a normal 32-bit processor.  Then 1401 memory used 8 bit organized as 4 data bit, one A channel, one B channel,  one mark bit, and one parity bit!
2015-12-24T22:02:51Z Walex2: on memory use, a quote from just 2005 about the GNOME project to make sure it would run well in 128MiB just like MS-Windows XP: http://www.sabi.co.uk/blog/anno05-2nd.html#050512
2015-12-24T22:03:13Z holymoo: Walex2: i think i actually downloaded that, it's on my reading todo
2015-12-24T22:03:15Z prxq: it was all pretty cool back then, except that when you needed actual computing punch it was nowhere to be had. So you had to 1) program in fortran, and 2) wait forever, if it was feasible at all.
2015-12-24T22:03:15Z Walex2: pjb: I know, I know. That is also mentioned in Art Of Computer Programming
2015-12-24T22:03:16Z pjb: So you had basically a 6-bit word size, and mark bits were used to delimit fields. All instructions worked on variable-length fields.
2015-12-24T22:03:36Z Walex2: pjb: FIELDATA! :-)
2015-12-24T22:04:45Z Walex2: BTW talking of FIELDATA, reminds me of a LISP-related thing: a buy at U of Wisconsin implemented a LISP system where the full compiler, from source to UNIVAC mainframe machine code, was 720 lines.
2015-12-24T22:04:57Z Pixel_Outlaw: Everyone should read Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution for some great if not polarized history on computing. Yes, Lisp is mentioned there too.
2015-12-24T22:05:18Z holymoo: Pixel_Outlaw: added that to my list
2015-12-24T22:06:06Z holymoo: Walex2: obviously before the hyperspec :)
2015-12-24T22:06:16Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yeah, it is an excellent read for programmers. Make sure they get started in the MIT hacker ethic tradition. Rather than romanced by flavor of the day frameworks and Microsoft.
2015-12-24T22:06:18Z Walex2: holymoo: obviously :-)
2015-12-24T22:06:47Z Walex2: full source here: http://www.frobenius.com/source.htm
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2015-12-24T22:07:14Z Walex2: http://www.frobenius.com/compiler.htm
2015-12-24T22:07:35Z Walex2: self compiling of course.
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2015-12-24T22:09:05Z Walex2: I used it quite a bit a long time ago when I was a little kid :-)
2015-12-24T22:09:22Z holymoo: you had access to that? haQ
2015-12-24T22:09:29Z holymoo: ha! even
2015-12-24T22:09:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: Pixel_Outlaw: "Make sure they get started in the MIT hacker ethic tradition. Rather than romanced by flavor of the day frameworks and Microsoft." But I could have been so happy if I hadn't known any better.
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2015-12-24T22:10:30Z holymoo: in retrospect, i wish i had access to lisp machines and the 3d animation system from symoblics in the 80's.  its something i was thinking about in the 80's before i had a clue what 3d animation was or that there was actuall 3d animation software.
2015-12-24T22:11:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: Petit_Dejeuner, unfortunate the boring inexpressive plebeian languages are where all the jobs are at eh?
2015-12-24T22:11:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: Makes me miserable too.
2015-12-24T22:11:52Z Walex2: in 1989 30 users on a 16MiB 386 system with a 20MHz CPU: http://www.sabi.co.uk/blog/12-one.html#120104d
2015-12-24T22:12:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: Was the "Incompatable timesharing system" before that Walex2?
2015-12-24T22:12:36Z Petit_Dejeuner: I don't think my boss really cares what I use. But I don't have the time or patience to rewrite everything we have now and rely on into lisp.
2015-12-24T22:12:45Z Walex2: Pixel_Outlaw: before what?
2015-12-24T22:12:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: ...that would be a cool job to have though.
2015-12-24T22:13:15Z Walex2: Pixel_Outlaw: ITS was an OS dceveloped at MIT to run on DEC-10 "mainframes"
2015-12-24T22:13:24Z holymoo: Walex2: the date on that email ... heh
2015-12-24T22:13:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: Walex2, I misread sorry. Dyslexia turned MiB into IBM.
2015-12-24T22:13:29Z Pixel_Outlaw: lol
2015-12-24T22:13:39Z Walex2: Pixel_Outlaw: it was the first platform for EMACS (the TECO EMAXCS).
2015-12-24T22:13:54Z Walex2: Pixel_Outlaw: yes, I was using ITS around 1980 to try it out.
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2015-12-24T22:14:24Z Walex2: Pixel_Outlaw: the two MIT ITS systems were one of the few computers on the ARPANET
2015-12-24T22:14:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: :D
2015-12-24T22:15:10Z Walex2: Pixel_Outlaw: and the command line was *weird*. Thus the "ITS" bit
2015-12-24T22:15:23Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think it is great honestly. The MIT hackers needed a multi user system so they just up and made one.
2015-12-24T22:16:06Z Walex2: Pixel_Outlaw: not really, it was a bit more complicated... They could have used the DEC-1O OS, but they wanted to do things in a less structured way.
2015-12-24T22:16:57Z Pixel_Outlaw: My memory is a bit foggy on it. I read Hackers like 6 years ago. Lots of good history in there.
2015-12-24T22:17:05Z Walex2: MIT are one of the leading lights (still) of the military-industrial complex, and they get to try new technologies to see how far they can be pushed.
2015-12-24T22:17:45Z Walex2: for example they dedicated a very expensive PDP-1 with a radar tube to use as a personal computer, to see how it would be like using PCs 20 years later.
2015-12-24T22:18:09Z moore33: I think they just wanted to fuck around with it.
2015-12-24T22:18:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: ^
2015-12-24T22:18:17Z Walex2: the Lisp Machines were very much in the same vein: very expensive technology-anticipation systems
2015-12-24T22:19:01Z Walex2: moore33: no doubt the hackers doing the work were into "just for fun", but the lab was run by people who let them, encouraged them to do it for that purpose.
2015-12-24T22:19:08Z holymoo: Walex2: that is probably the best description of a lisp machine that i have ever read
2015-12-24T22:19:20Z holymoo: way ahead of their time
2015-12-24T22:19:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: I really wish companies had departments that just let people screw around with personal projects and develop them.
2015-12-24T22:19:37Z Walex2: holymoo: but deliberately...
2015-12-24T22:19:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: They do
2015-12-24T22:19:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: Or did
2015-12-24T22:19:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: You want innovation? Let people who are interested "play".
2015-12-24T22:20:16Z holymoo: i would translate that into, have enough budget to be able to afford that
2015-12-24T22:20:22Z Walex2: big pointer to Xerox PARC here, Interlisp, ALTOS, the various smalltalks
2015-12-24T22:20:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: ^^^
2015-12-24T22:20:47Z Petit_Dejeuner wonders if there's a smalltalk based OS
2015-12-24T22:20:52Z holymoo: from what i see the budgets of old for this sort of research don't exist.  its all corporate stuff with unreasonable timelines and dumb tooling
2015-12-24T22:20:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: I could set that up on a rasberry Pi.
2015-12-24T22:21:24Z Walex2: one of the great ironies of computing history is that on the PARC machines Smalltalk became more and more and more like Interlisp, but now Interlisp, which was a great thing, is forgotten, and people remember Smalltalk
2015-12-24T22:21:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: holymoo: And it all takes much more man hours, time, and money than it should.
2015-12-24T22:21:29Z Pixel_Outlaw: It is high level middleware, SQL, and frameworks all the way down now.
2015-12-24T22:21:34Z holymoo: Petit_Dejeuner: i actually bought a few of these to see if i can get sbcl arm on it: http://nextthing.co/
2015-12-24T22:21:47Z holymoo: Petit_Dejeuner: that is the crazy part dude, yes!
2015-12-24T22:21:54Z moore33: I think the characterization of the Lisp Machine is a bit off. It started as a project to get get a bigger address space for Lisp than the pdp10 could support. It got expensive in later years cuz Symbolics could get that price.
2015-12-24T22:21:56Z holymoo: in the end you end up spending the same amount or more even
2015-12-24T22:22:11Z holymoo: actually more because you are forever patching and fixing incrementally instead of engineering
2015-12-24T22:22:17Z holymoo: agreed
2015-12-24T22:22:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: holymoo: So long as everyone else is wasting resources, it isn't a mistake.
2015-12-24T22:22:25Z Walex2: moore33: yes, but it was still *very* expensive in absolute terms at any time.
2015-12-24T22:22:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: Java is "standard"
2015-12-24T22:22:32Z holymoo: Petit_Dejeuner: heh
2015-12-24T22:22:41Z moore33: Walex2: Sure, so was a pdp10.
2015-12-24T22:22:46Z Kitlith cringes.
2015-12-24T22:23:03Z Petit_Dejeuner Needs to write his perfect OS.
2015-12-24T22:23:27Z heddwch: hargh blargh off topic blargh be professionals in #lisp raaaawr
2015-12-24T22:23:29Z Petit_Dejeuner: The thing is, there isn't THAT much that needs to be written. OS + Browser + Support for Editing and Viewing Media files
2015-12-24T22:23:33Z Walex2: Petit_Dejeuner: I have designed one decades ago based on MUSS and Elmwood :-)
2015-12-24T22:23:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: It IS a lot, but it is NOT a lot.
2015-12-24T22:23:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: Walex2: interiem?
2015-12-24T22:23:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: Today the entire PC is just a web browser.
2015-12-24T22:23:56Z holymoo: Walex2: the smalltalk comment is interesting. i have only heard of interlisp, never had access to it
2015-12-24T22:24:09Z Pixel_Outlaw: We are sickeningly dependent on web browsers.
2015-12-24T22:24:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: Pixel_Outlaw: Not quite. It's getting there though.
2015-12-24T22:24:13Z Kitlith: ^
2015-12-24T22:24:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: A web browser is just a half assed emacs running javascript.
2015-12-24T22:24:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: ...with memory leaks
2015-12-24T22:24:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: If anyone wants a GUI for Lisp they are supposed to just roll a web server out.
2015-12-24T22:24:41Z holymoo: moore33: interesting.  i have been reading quite a bit computing history (such as it exists).  it is always interesting to see the kernel of an idea.  i appreciate that.
2015-12-24T22:24:51Z Walex2: holymoo: it was basically a Smalltalk-like environment written in a derivative of MACLISP, but actually it was Smalltalk that was an Interlisp-like environemnt and language
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2015-12-24T22:25:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: Any papers/examples of interlisp.
2015-12-24T22:25:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: ?*
2015-12-24T22:25:34Z Petit_Dejeuner would write everything in elisp if it had a better debugger.
2015-12-24T22:25:39Z holymoo: Petit_Dejeuner: i agree with you.  this is why i am messing with lipkit ... inching my way toward the magical emacs 2.0 or whatever
2015-12-24T22:25:52Z Walex2: Petit_Dejeuner: wikipedia for example... Some links to follow
2015-12-24T22:26:02Z Walex2: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~andre/ics228s2006/teitelmanmasinter.pdf
2015-12-24T22:26:10Z Walex2: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp-d/Papers_On_Interlisp-D.pdf
2015-12-24T22:26:14Z holymoo: Petit_Dejeuner: this is probably the direction a lisp based emacs style browser would go in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w8Zewpzf2Y
2015-12-24T22:26:16Z Pixel_Outlaw: "A web browser is just a half assed emacs running javascript." - Petit_Dejeuner #lisp
2015-12-24T22:26:52Z moore33: Petit_Dejeuner: Emacs doesn't have WebGL...
2015-12-24T22:26:56Z Pixel_Outlaw: We need a bot that saves and recalls random quotes.
2015-12-24T22:27:07Z Walex2: http://xeroxalto.computerhistory.org/xerox_alto_file_system_archive.html the "Lisp" section
2015-12-24T22:27:32Z holymoo: Walex2: neat. i vaguely remember interlisp being advertised in 80's computer mags ... or was that early 90's?
2015-12-24T22:27:50Z reggy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2015-12-24T22:27:51Z Pixel_Outlaw: There is a free issue of BYTE magazine or was you could get online for Lisp.
2015-12-24T22:27:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: One sec.
2015-12-24T22:27:59Z Walex2: holymoo: it never became a product, you may be remembering FranzLisp, from UCB
2015-12-24T22:28:23Z moore33: What? Xerox sold Lisp machines.
2015-12-24T22:28:35Z prxq: and fotocopiers
2015-12-24T22:28:41Z Walex2: moore33: to collectors
2015-12-24T22:28:49Z Pixel_Outlaw: http://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=4144
2015-12-24T22:28:51Z moore33: uh...
2015-12-24T22:29:02Z ACE_Recliner: Yep, Xerox sold their in-house brand of Interlisp-D machines to compete with the Maclisp derivs of the east coast
2015-12-24T22:29:07Z holymoo: very cool links walex, downloaded and added to collection
2015-12-24T22:29:13Z Walex2: moore33: they weren't quite "advertised in computer magazines"
2015-12-24T22:29:30Z holymoo: ah, then i am imaginging that then
2015-12-24T22:29:31Z moore33: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star
2015-12-24T22:29:50Z Walex2: the machines you are referring to were Dorados, which eventually were turned into Star platforms
2015-12-24T22:30:25Z moore33: Also the Dandelion and friends.
2015-12-24T22:31:24Z Walex2: I just read on the Wikipedia page "Also in 1981 a 6502 variant, INTER-LISP/65, was released by Datasoft for the Atari 800." which I did not know.
2015-12-24T22:31:48Z Walex2: I have somewhere the 5.25" floppies of a really nice Lisp for Z80s, but I can't remember the name.
2015-12-24T22:32:01Z Pixel_Outlaw: You've gotta wonder how they had space for the GC in a lot of the early machines...
2015-12-24T22:33:03Z holymoo: Walex2: you have floppies of that? hillarious, i just read about that a month ago on slashdot or some such
2015-12-24T22:33:09Z Walex2: I was a little boy :-) at the time and I read the papers and manuals by Teitelman etc. with fascination.
2015-12-24T22:33:24Z Kitlith: We have software bloat. It's a wonder that we can fit anything on our computers now, it seems.
2015-12-24T22:33:33Z holymoo: did you manage a hello world in that lisp?
2015-12-24T22:33:42Z moore33: Pixel_Outlaw: They didn't do copy collection for starters :)
2015-12-24T22:33:58Z Walex2: I still have 2 packs of 8" floppies, 160KiB, one new unwritten, another pack with a UCSD Pascal interpeter on it.
2015-12-24T22:34:44Z Walex2: Pixel_Outlaw: someone inventged a GC-in-place that "inverted" pointers to avoid creating a stack, and run in constant space.
2015-12-24T22:34:45Z holymoo: Kitlith: its unbeleivable to be honest.  gnome and kde require staggering amounts of ram just for minimal operating requirements. on the one hand, i am sure the programmers have some clue and know why this must be.  on the other hand, its a fucking desktoip environment.  why are 2 gigs required as a minimum before any other apps are started?
2015-12-24T22:35:00Z Walex2: Pixel_Outlaw: one of the great amazing ideas,  paper in CACM.
2015-12-24T22:35:26Z nyef: holymoo: Remember when a desktop environment would run in 128k of RAM?
2015-12-24T22:35:39Z prxq: some of my ancestors also lived in a hole, and didn't need all that heating, windows and walls stuff that people are pampered with nowadays
2015-12-24T22:35:51Z Walex2: holymoo: the quote above shows that GNOME has a subproject because it was a bit too slow in 128MIB in 2005 :-)
2015-12-24T22:36:15Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thanks Walex2
2015-12-24T22:36:35Z Pixel_Outlaw: That sounds awesome.
2015-12-24T22:36:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: prxq: Yes, but what is all the extra stuff doing?
2015-12-24T22:36:38Z physixer left #lisp
2015-12-24T22:37:16Z Walex2: it is now well known as the Deutsch-Schorr-Waite
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2015-12-24T22:37:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks for the papers, Walex2
2015-12-24T22:37:59Z holymoo: Walex2: oh! haha, now i get it.  that is fricking hillarious.  i think all of windows net is 300 megabytes and runs on fucking 24mb ram
2015-12-24T22:38:22Z Walex2: BTW if someone is interested in LISP history, Vincennes LISP is another ancient but amazing implementation.
2015-12-24T22:38:26Z Kitlith: holymoo, Of course, a nice read when thinking about this stuff is http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html
2015-12-24T22:38:27Z holymoo: it just makes your link even more ridiculous
2015-12-24T22:38:56Z holymoo: nyef: dude, yes i do. i  cannot believe it was a little over 20 years ago but damnit
2015-12-24T22:39:11Z Pixel_Outlaw: I had Python run 400MB of ram before it decided to garbage collect. Maybe it simply didn't need to but man that's a lot.
2015-12-24T22:39:37Z holymoo: Kitlith: saved the page for later reading.  thank you kindly.
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2015-12-24T22:39:56Z nyef: holymoo: 30 years ago.
2015-12-24T22:40:14Z holymoo: ohh ...yes right.  you are talking about amiga
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2015-12-24T22:40:20Z Kitlith: holymoo, It's unrelated to lisp, but then again, we're not even talking about lisp at this point, so...
2015-12-24T22:40:22Z nyef: No, I'm not.
2015-12-24T22:40:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: ...crash bandicoot took up less memory than a video game article on how little memory crash bandicoot took up.
2015-12-24T22:40:47Z nyef: Though, good call, they also had a desktop environment for the Commodore 64 at one point.
2015-12-24T22:41:01Z holymoo: yep!
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2015-12-24T22:41:12Z Pixel_Outlaw: I vaguely recall something called Gem
2015-12-24T22:41:12Z nyef: But I was actually referring to the Macintosh.
2015-12-24T22:41:29Z nyef: IIRC, Gem was for the Atari ST.
2015-12-24T22:41:33Z holymoo: oh yes :) i was poor and had no idea how much ram was on the mac.
2015-12-24T22:41:51Z holymoo: you are right, those things had next to nothing specs
2015-12-24T22:41:52Z moore33: nyef: To be fair, the 128k Mac was pretty grim by today's standards...
2015-12-24T22:42:05Z nyef: moore33: Yes, it was.
2015-12-24T22:42:34Z Walex2: it was grim by its contemporary standards too
2015-12-24T22:43:02Z holymoo: i totally forgot about macs.
2015-12-24T22:43:17Z holymoo: did apple 2 have a graphical interface at all? i don't remember seeing one
2015-12-24T22:43:33Z ACE_Recliner: probably the only reason they were even able to use 128k was the fact that they had an outsize rom for the operating system routines to compensate
2015-12-24T22:43:40Z ACE_Recliner: yes, apple ii had a few
2015-12-24T22:43:43Z nyef: holymoo: The IIgs did, and there might have been one for earlier systems as well.
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2015-12-24T22:43:59Z ACE_Recliner: desktop, geos for regular iis, and the iigs had it's own system software
2015-12-24T22:44:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: I just remember a lot of green and pink text on the ol Apple IIe.
2015-12-24T22:44:10Z Pixel_Outlaw: I recall there was a lisp for it too.
2015-12-24T22:44:11Z holymoo: huh, interesting
2015-12-24T22:44:49Z nyef: Heh. Yeah, the green and the pink... Though IIRC that only happened if you were in a hybrid graphics mode?
2015-12-24T22:45:01Z ACE_Recliner: http://toastytech.com/guis/a2desk.html
2015-12-24T22:45:14Z nyef: The video hardware didn't emit the colorburst if you were in a pure text mode.
2015-12-24T22:45:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: Pixel_Outlaw: Dylan?
2015-12-24T22:45:56Z ACE_Recliner: nah, dylan would be 10 years too late for the good old ii
2015-12-24T22:46:00Z Pixel_Outlaw: http://www.flownet.com/ron/plisp.html
2015-12-24T22:46:00Z nyef: No, Dylan was way post-Apple ][.
2015-12-24T22:46:08Z moore33: Petit_Dejeuner: Dylan was much later... came after the excellent Macintosh Common Lisp.
2015-12-24T22:46:23Z Walex2: and Allegro CL IIRC
2015-12-24T22:46:27Z Pixel_Outlaw: P-Lisp was a 1981 implementation of Lisp that ran on an Apple II.
2015-12-24T22:46:35Z Pixel_Outlaw: according to the article
2015-12-24T22:46:55Z nyef: If you're willing to call LOGO a Lisp, there were at least two.
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2015-12-24T22:47:25Z Walex2: LOGO is not a LISP
2015-12-24T22:47:32Z holymoo: ACE_Recliner: HA! jesus, that is crazy.  thanks for the link, i had no idea.
2015-12-24T22:47:44Z Walex2: while I claim that POP-11 was a LISP, in effect it was LISP-2.
2015-12-24T22:47:53Z Walex2: while I claim that POP-2 was a LISP, in effect it was LISP-2.
2015-12-24T22:48:03Z ACE_Recliner: yeah, there's all kinds of crazy stuff if you know where to look :P
2015-12-24T22:48:08Z Walex2: POP-2 from Edinburgh
2015-12-24T22:48:08Z moore33: Walex2: "Allegro CL" was rebadged MCL (aka Coral Common Lisp)
2015-12-24T22:48:30Z Pixel_Outlaw: I have one of the MIT books on LOGO.
2015-12-24T22:49:01Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think it claims that it is a dialect of lisp if I'm not mistaken.
2015-12-24T22:49:44Z Quadrescence: so, i make an effort to be a good citizen and attempt to use a library implementing queues, instead of my own home-rolled one
2015-12-24T22:49:51Z holymoo: apple iigs cpu ran at 2.8mhz
2015-12-24T22:50:11Z Quadrescence: of course, of course, what happens is that the library is subtly buggy in certain situations, which caused bugs in my own code
2015-12-24T22:50:19Z holymoo: i lived through it and i have a hard time wrapping my head around that
2015-12-24T22:50:31Z Walex2: Quadrescence: you just discovered the joys of reuse...
2015-12-24T22:51:40Z holymoo: and gem for pcs i guess: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_Environment_Manager
2015-12-24T22:51:48Z nyef: holymoo: Hah! It ran at 2.8 MHz in FAST mode. When in compatibility mode, or when accessing the drive controllers, it ran at 1 MHz.
2015-12-24T22:51:55Z holymoo: i see where windows 3.1 comes from now
2015-12-24T22:52:04Z holymoo: nyef: mind blown
2015-12-24T22:52:05Z holymoo: lol
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2015-12-24T22:53:18Z holymoo: if someone went back in time and told everyone we would have hexacore gigaherz cpus, terrabytes of storage, gigs of ram in desktop pcs their minds would be blown
2015-12-24T22:53:30Z Pixel_Outlaw: Have we seen Interim OS here? Lisp os for the Pi. http://interim.mntmn.com/
2015-12-24T22:53:41Z holymoo: and then when you tell them that all we still do on computers is wordprocessing, accounting and games and you would get laughed out of the room
2015-12-24T22:53:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: Made a cook keyboard too it appears.
2015-12-24T22:53:46Z Pixel_Outlaw: *cool
2015-12-24T22:53:46Z holymoo: the internet is pretty cool tho
2015-12-24T22:54:00Z Walex2: holymoo: no, that was the MIT plan, only different
2015-12-24T22:54:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: Pixel_Outlaw: Read the article and some of the source. Heard someone mention off hand that a good lisp OS should be lisp "allthewaydown" and poked mezzano a little.
2015-12-24T22:54:55Z Walex2: holymoo: there was a branch of research at MIT (Hewitt => Planner) about imagining future PC with thousands to hundreds of thousands of "cores"
2015-12-24T22:55:25Z Walex2: holymoo: therefore greedy rather than lazy evaluation, and "garbage collection of processes".
2015-12-24T22:55:26Z holymoo: really? i shouldn't be surprised any more
2015-12-24T22:55:51Z Walex2: holymoo: the idea, which turned out to be really different from what happened, was that
2015-12-24T22:56:09Z Kitlith: Pixel_Outlaw, I'll take a look at that, since I have a pi as well.
2015-12-24T22:56:17Z mordocai: How do I "re-raise"(or whatever lisp term is) an error in common lisp? My want is to catch the error (got that handled using handler-case),  print some output, then just raise the error back up so I hit the debugger.
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2015-12-24T22:56:43Z Walex2: in a future chip with say 1 billion transistors you can put really very many 100k transistor 32 bit CPUs
2015-12-24T22:56:57Z holymoo: neat
2015-12-24T22:57:44Z holymoo: i wonder how somethign like that would work
2015-12-24T22:58:03Z Walex2: but the market demanded internally parallel CPUs (superscalar, highly pipelined, ...) to run existing apps faster, rather than many in-order core running very parallel applications
2015-12-24T22:58:17Z holymoo: we may kind of be moving in that direction in the future anyway.  we have reached max hz for cpus mostly
2015-12-24T22:58:20Z Walex2: so it was transistor count per CPu that went up a lot.
2015-12-24T22:58:29Z Pixel_Outlaw: Petit_Dejeuner, thanks. I don't really mind him writing the OS in C as a VM as long as everything is Lisp to the user.
2015-12-24T22:58:38Z holymoo: Walex2: ohhh.  okay right.
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2015-12-24T22:59:30Z Walex2: Pixel_Outlaw: you can do both! There is a very good implementation of Common Lisp that generates excellent quality C code.
2015-12-24T23:00:28Z holymoo: okay, i have to get some food.  awesome discussion.  thanks for the links.
2015-12-24T23:00:35Z holymoo quit (Quit: leaving)
2015-12-24T23:00:45Z Walex2: bye!
2015-12-24T23:01:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've got a Christmas service to attend. Later gents!
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2015-12-24T23:01:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: l8r
2015-12-24T23:02:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: mordocai: You should be able to just write (error muh-error-object)
2015-12-24T23:03:09Z mordocai: Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, i tried that a second ago thinking "maybe it'll work" and it did!
2015-12-24T23:03:35Z mordocai: Petit_Dejeuner: here is my problem if you think you might have insight. Memory error in cl-ppcre. http://paste.lisp.org/display/303096
2015-12-24T23:04:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: Looks beyond me. I'm not much of a lisper.
2015-12-24T23:05:10Z mordocai: Yeah, was just throwing it out there. #sbcl is trying to help me.
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2015-12-24T23:05:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: I guess the first thing to determine would be if too much memory is being used or if sb is just blown.
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2015-12-24T23:08:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: After all this time, it still amazes me that the condition system doesn't really need continuations/gotos/jumps to work. I could implement half of a buggy condition system in C if I wanted to.
2015-12-24T23:08:57Z phoe_krk: allo
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2015-12-24T23:11:08Z mordocai: Petit_Dejeuner: Apparently i'm using cl-ppcre wrong. You can't just funcall create-scanner's result. Haven't learned how to use it right yet though.
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2015-12-24T23:13:54Z mordocai: Apparently scan works fine when you provide a scanner as the regex arg
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2015-12-24T23:16:11Z Bicyclidine: yeah, and it amounts to a funcall.
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2015-12-24T23:29:59Z mordocai: Bicyclidine: Yeah, it was a wrong number of args thing but due to cl-ppcre setting safety 0 I was getting a memory error instead of a useful message.
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2015-12-24T23:31:51Z Bicyclidine: yeah. as it does. i remember having the same problem.
2015-12-24T23:32:34Z mordocai: In any case, all working now and since i'm avoiding the sometimes silent memory corruption mel-base isn't silently deleting emails anymore either.
2015-12-24T23:32:38Z mordocai: Thank goodness for test data
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2015-12-24T23:38:25Z Fare: mordocai: whenever possible, I use optima-ppcre instead of cl-ppcre
2015-12-24T23:38:29Z phoe_krk: >sometimes silent memory corruption
2015-12-24T23:39:02Z phoe_krk: really, since when Lisp was C.
2015-12-24T23:39:10Z phoe_krk: speed ain't everything.
2015-12-24T23:39:26Z nyef: phoe_krk: "Speed isn't everything, it's the only thing."
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2015-12-24T23:39:56Z phoe_krk: nyef: the only thing the end user wants, huh?
2015-12-24T23:40:01Z phoe_krk: the only thing the end user cares about.
2015-12-24T23:41:12Z p_l: CL is pretty good at speed, though
2015-12-24T23:41:32Z mordocai: Fare: Yeah, in this case I needed regexes for compatibility purposes but i'll keep it in mind.
2015-12-24T23:41:38Z phoe_krk: yes, but also while maintaining safety that's impossible in C
2015-12-24T23:42:43Z Fare: I don't know if optima.ppcre can do computed/stored regexes, beside with #. / `,
2015-12-24T23:43:03Z Fare: it's still a much better interface than the default one
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2015-12-24T23:43:22Z Fare: I want wrong answers, fast!
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2015-12-24T23:44:33Z phoe_krk: employ /dev/urandom, that's the fastest known source of wrong answers
2015-12-24T23:45:01Z physixer: how to create a function that defines two symbols with two values: (define-two a 5 b 8) ... ?
2015-12-24T23:48:00Z Fare: phoe_krk, just make sure to de-serialize it into an object of the correct type.
2015-12-24T23:48:21Z Fare: functions don't define symbol
2015-12-24T23:48:24Z Fare: you mean macro
2015-12-24T23:48:28Z Fare: like, setf
2015-12-24T23:49:12Z phoe_krk: Fare: it's just a matter of properly working with (read-raw-urandom-bytes n).
2015-12-24T23:51:17Z |3b|: depending on what you mean by "define two symbols", you could EVAL a DEFVAR form or something, but that sounds like a really bad idea. if you just want 2 local variables, use LET. if you want 2 global/special variables, use a macro that expands to a PROGN containing 2 DEFVARs (which seems a bit pointless, but not nearly as bad an idea as trying to do it with a function)
2015-12-24T23:51:34Z |3b|: or if you mean scheme, try #scheme (this channel is mostly about common lisp)
2015-12-24T23:53:06Z Fare: or you can use (setf (symbol-value ...) ...) if you really want to do it in a function
2015-12-24T23:53:40Z Fare: beware the quote
2015-12-24T23:53:55Z Fare: reminds me that SETQ initially stood for SET QUOTED...
2015-12-24T23:54:04Z phoe_krk: Fare: what does it mean, then?
2015-12-24T23:54:08Z phoe_krk: I still go by that definition
2015-12-24T23:54:17Z Fare: it means SETQ
2015-12-24T23:54:26Z phoe_krk: ...oh.
2015-12-24T23:54:32Z |3b|: more that the behavior changed than the expansion
2015-12-24T23:54:35Z Fare: SET is deprecated in favor of (setf (symbol-value ...) ...)
2015-12-24T23:54:45Z phoe_krk: Just like terpri means terpri, right?
2015-12-24T23:55:06Z phoe_krk: And like rplaca means rplaca and rplacd means rplacd.
2015-12-24T23:55:33Z |3b|: it no longer does the same thing as (set (quote ..)), so expanding the name to SET QUOTE seems counterproductive
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2015-12-24T23:56:04Z |3b|: terpri, rplaca, rplacd all have the same meaning as when they were named, so expanding those seems reasonable
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