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2015-12-21T00:07:11Z n_blownapart: http://pastie.org/10644310 hello in this problem from sicp, I cannot how "the arguments are evaluated before the body of the procedure is executed."
2015-12-21T00:07:16Z n_blownapart: see*
2015-12-21T00:08:25Z phoe_krk: hey everyone I made a thing http://paste.lisp.org/display/247129
2015-12-21T00:08:43Z phoe_krk: (cut-string "qwertyuiop" 1 1 1 1 :from-end 1 1 1) ;; => ("q" "w" "e" "r" "tyu" "i" "o" "p")
2015-12-21T00:08:47Z phoe_krk: just what I needed.
2015-12-21T00:09:17Z PuercoPop: ralt: iirc hu.dwim uses :defsystem-depends-on to add system information
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2015-12-21T00:09:40Z PuercoPop: like author, license
2015-12-21T00:09:48Z |3b|: n_blownapart: isn't that the definition of the "applicative order evaluation"?
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2015-12-21T00:11:25Z |3b| hasn't done CS for long enough that i don't remember the terms, but from that pasted example, that seems to be the entire point of the distinction. if it evaluates (p) before calling passing the result to TEST, you get an infinite loop.
2015-12-21T00:11:30Z ralt: PuercoPop: I'm just going to assume that I use the same information as quicklisp. tbh, I'm mostly trying to get the 99% to work for now.
2015-12-21T00:11:56Z resttime: n_blownapart: If I recall correctly SICP explains that IF also happens to be a special operator.
2015-12-21T00:12:06Z PuercoPop: ralt: 99% is good enough. The perfect is the enemy of the perfect
2015-12-21T00:12:08Z ralt: Xach_: it works perfectly, thanks!
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2015-12-21T00:12:33Z resttime: There should also be a question between two fictional people or something where one of them tried to make their own IF with COND
2015-12-21T00:13:30Z resttime: Try answering that problem and it should probably help with understanding.
2015-12-21T00:13:32Z ralt: PuercoPop: hehe :)
2015-12-21T00:13:41Z resttime: Err, at least for me it did
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2015-12-21T00:21:13Z PuercoPop: *good
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2015-12-21T00:23:29Z n_blownapart: resttime, thanks for responding. I'm a noob: why does that cause the conditional to never be evaluated in an applicative order evaluation?
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2015-12-21T00:25:20Z Bicyclidine: n_blownapart: "special operator" means it's defined to use a special order of evaluation, among other things. for IF, that order is not applicative order.
2015-12-21T00:25:56Z |3b|: in the pasted example, the conditional is never called, since the argument never finishes evaluating
2015-12-21T00:25:59Z resttime: n_blownapart: (p) just keeps calling itself at that point
2015-12-21T00:26:11Z resttime: Hence infinte loop
2015-12-21T00:26:24Z resttime: *infinite
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2015-12-21T00:28:27Z ralt: Xach_: do you remember if you're generating the .tgz for antik in a special way? The tar archive is somehow not like the others
2015-12-21T00:28:52Z ralt: (it's a gitlab project, if that matters)
2015-12-21T00:29:28Z n_blownapart: I don't see how, if a conditional is in the body of the definition, why the program logic leaves off before evaluating the boolean predicate part and consequent.
2015-12-21T00:29:47Z n_blownapart: it is, so to speak, the meat of the program. sorry I don't see it.
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2015-12-21T00:31:23Z Bicyclidine: well, how the evaluator works is, first it sees (test 0 (p)). It looks up "test" and sees that it's a function, so it sets to evaluating the arguments for the function. It evaluates 0, and then evaluates (p), which goes forever.
2015-12-21T00:32:19Z Bicyclidine: if you were evaluating (+ (+ 3 4) 5), it would similarly look up "+", see that it's a function, and then evaluate (+ 3 4) and then 5, passing 7 and 5 to +. (which of course does halt)
2015-12-21T00:33:42Z n_blownapart: |3b|, appreciate your earlier input. I had some definitions wrong on that paste...
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2015-12-21T00:35:52Z phoe_krk: http://i.imgur.com/GNtSHAK.png what's going on!?
2015-12-21T00:36:16Z ralt: Xach_: ignore me.
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2015-12-21T00:36:21Z Bicyclidine: something very exciting, i reckon. what is that sbcl, exactly
2015-12-21T00:36:41Z phoe_krk: 1.2.16
2015-12-21T00:36:52Z phoe_krk: on Windows
2015-12-21T00:36:53Z |3b| guesses slime/emacs getting confused
2015-12-21T00:37:48Z Bicyclidine: that's not even Û's char-code. golly.
2015-12-21T00:37:54Z phoe_krk: well, that messes up my strings pretty badly, because they have such weird characters in it
2015-12-21T00:38:09Z |3b|: yeah, that makes it more confusing... it isn't the char-code in octal either which was my guess
2015-12-21T00:38:24Z resttime: Assuming it's "Û" I don't get that SBCL 1.3 Linux, that's really odd lol
2015-12-21T00:38:32Z resttime: SLIME as well
2015-12-21T00:39:20Z |3b|: works for me on 1.2.15.23 x8664 win
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2015-12-21T00:40:08Z phoe_krk: this is some weird stuff
2015-12-21T00:40:08Z |3b|: phoe_krk: put cursor on that Û and do M-x describe-char RET and see what codepoint it says on 2nd line of resulting buffer
2015-12-21T00:40:33Z phoe_krk: (codepoint 4194259, #o17777723, #x3fffd3)
2015-12-21T00:41:14Z phoe_krk: this is weird. I got this from a latin-1 encoded flexi-stream
2015-12-21T00:41:23Z phoe_krk: I don't expect any weirdness to happen
2015-12-21T00:41:49Z mtl_: phoe_krk: commas?
2015-12-21T00:41:54Z phoe_krk: mtl_: ?
2015-12-21T00:42:00Z |3b|: hmm, maybe lisppaste the whole *Help* buffer from that describe-char?
2015-12-21T00:42:05Z phoe_krk: okay
2015-12-21T00:42:06Z |3b|: that's an odd codepoint
2015-12-21T00:42:08Z mtl_: why are there commas
2015-12-21T00:42:21Z |3b|: mtl_: i get commas also
2015-12-21T00:42:23Z n_blownapart: Bicyclidine, thanks. I'm missing the point. the 2nd line of test is not evaluated, but accepts (p) as an argument from the previously defined function. very sorry for the confusion
2015-12-21T00:42:28Z |3b|: emacs 24.4.1
2015-12-21T00:42:37Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/247484
2015-12-21T00:42:42Z |3b| doesn't get non-unicode code points though
2015-12-21T00:43:04Z mtl_: oh it
2015-12-21T00:43:04Z Bicyclidine: n_blownapart: as long as you learn something it's fine, i guess
2015-12-21T00:43:07Z mtl_: it's output
2015-12-21T00:43:38Z n_blownapart: omg
2015-12-21T00:43:44Z phoe_krk: maybe it's just my encoding getting something mixed up
2015-12-21T00:44:15Z |3b|: ok, so 323 matches the #xdb printed in octal, which sort of makes sense
2015-12-21T00:44:29Z phoe_krk: let me ask this way: is there an external format that will simply print characters from the 32-255 ASCII range without erroring on anything?
2015-12-21T00:44:43Z phoe_krk: I have a protocol that outputs characters from such a range and I need to take care of them
2015-12-21T00:44:56Z phoe_krk: and what I'm using (flexi-stream && latin-1) is seemingly weirding out on me.
2015-12-21T00:45:18Z |3b|: latin1 should work for that
2015-12-21T00:45:46Z |3b|: any idea what should be in the actual string at that point?
2015-12-21T00:46:08Z |3b|: (map 'list 'char-code ...) or something if it gets corrupted between Cl and emacs
2015-12-21T00:46:25Z |3b|: assuming you can get the actual string to look at
2015-12-21T00:46:54Z |3b|: or what bytes are in the vector passed to flex
2015-12-21T00:47:58Z phoe_krk: uh
2015-12-21T00:48:05Z phoe_krk: values with char-code 32 to 255
2015-12-21T00:48:28Z |3b|: i mean do you know the specific input that ended up causing that strange char in emacs
2015-12-21T00:48:33Z phoe_krk: I don't
2015-12-21T00:48:45Z phoe_krk: but I can probably simulate it by passing all allowed char codes into Emacs
2015-12-21T00:48:53Z phoe_krk: I mean, through what it came through
2015-12-21T00:49:31Z |3b|: you are using recent slime, right?
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2015-12-21T00:50:25Z phoe_krk: hum, how do I check?
2015-12-21T00:51:57Z |3b|: M-x slime-changelog-date RET is best way i know
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2015-12-21T00:52:13Z phoe_krk: 2015-06-01
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2015-12-21T00:52:22Z phoe_krk: ...I have a feeling that's not recent
2015-12-21T00:52:41Z |3b|: recent enough for what i was thinking about
2015-12-21T00:52:53Z phoe_krk: how do I update anyway?
2015-12-21T00:52:53Z |3b|: (and same as what i'm using)
2015-12-21T00:53:25Z |3b|: easiest is let quicklisp manage it for you, otherwise depends on how you installed it in the first place
2015-12-21T00:53:56Z phoe_krk: hm, I totally don't remember
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2015-12-21T00:54:54Z |3b|: might check top of *inferior-lisp" to see where it is loading from, or M-. on a swank symbol, and see if the path suggests anything
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2015-12-21T00:55:18Z phoe_krk: oh well, updating slime now just in case
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2015-12-21T00:57:23Z phoe_krk: uhh, now it tells me, versions differ
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2015-12-21T00:58:18Z phoe_krk: new slime vs old swank
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2015-12-21T01:00:54Z |3b|: yeah, you need to restart emacs when updating slime :/
2015-12-21T01:01:17Z |3b|: frequently you can just ignore the warning, but adding other potential problems when debugging isn't a particularly good idea
2015-12-21T01:01:32Z |3b| isn't sure if reloading slime is safe or not
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2015-12-21T01:02:28Z phoe_krk: okay, restarting
2015-12-21T01:02:50Z phoe_krk: oh, good.
2015-12-21T01:02:58Z phoe_krk: anyway, I'll be investigating more tomorrow
2015-12-21T01:03:05Z phoe_krk: night time for me.
2015-12-21T01:03:08Z phoe_krk: good night, #parens
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2015-12-21T01:14:03Z MikeSeth: cl-json decodes the result of an api calllike ((:foo "val1") (:bar "val2")), is there a name to this format? should I handle it as is or look for alternative ways to output it?
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2015-12-21T01:15:21Z MikeSeth: oh i just realized it's an association list
2015-12-21T01:16:12Z phoe_krk: that's weird
2015-12-21T01:16:20Z phoe_krk: I get this again.
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2015-12-21T01:37:19Z phoe_krk: ...Emacs is fscking up
2015-12-21T01:37:29Z phoe_krk: When I copypaste an Û from wikipedia, it treats it as a proper Û
2015-12-21T01:37:40Z phoe_krk: when I copy that thing that it gave me as output, it ends up turning it into a 323
2015-12-21T01:40:15Z resttime: Maybe something's up with the buffer coding? C-h C
2015-12-21T01:40:21Z Fare: bad unicode configuration. Go on #emacs
2015-12-21T01:40:56Z drdo: It's 2015 and we still have problems with unicode :)
2015-12-21T01:41:20Z Fare: don't you mean 333 ?
2015-12-21T01:41:42Z Fare: 333 is octal for (char-code #\Û)
2015-12-21T01:41:45Z |3b|: Fare: more confused than that, emacs thinks it is some non-unicode code point
2015-12-21T01:42:13Z Fare: drdo: unicode itself is a problem
2015-12-21T01:42:24Z drdo: Fare: How so?
2015-12-21T01:42:25Z Fare: but sometimes an awful standard is better than no standard.
2015-12-21T01:43:55Z |3b| isn't sure why it even displays a character instead of \323 though
2015-12-21T01:44:44Z drdo: Fare: Ha, I'd take no standard over the mess that is email :)
2015-12-21T01:48:04Z phoe_krk: Fare: bad unicode on emacs?
2015-12-21T01:49:13Z phoe_krk: Fare: no, 323
2015-12-21T01:49:24Z phoe_krk: I copypaste the symbol into REPL and it returns 323
2015-12-21T01:49:37Z pjb: phoe_krk: there are encodings at all steps.
2015-12-21T01:49:52Z phoe_krk: pjb: then I'm lost
2015-12-21T01:49:55Z pjb: When you copy the character from firefox, it must encode it to copy it in the pasteboard.
2015-12-21T01:50:28Z pjb: When you paste it in emacs, emacs must decode the byte sequence to find what character it represents.
2015-12-21T01:50:29Z |3b|: emacs seems to think it is raw byte #xd3 (= #o323), not that character
2015-12-21T01:50:29Z phoe_krk: I copy it from Emacs into Emacs.
2015-12-21T01:50:44Z phoe_krk: ...ooh, that makes sense
2015-12-21T01:51:03Z pjb: When emacs displays it in the terminal, it must again encode the character to the terminal encoding.
2015-12-21T01:51:17Z |3b| thought slime used some fixed encoding and didn't need configured since a few years ago though, so not sure how you ended up getting that bad char into emacs in the first place
2015-12-21T01:51:25Z pjb: At each step, you have opportunity for misconfiguration of the coding system used.
2015-12-21T01:51:39Z |3b| thinks that would be the more interesting thing to investigate rather than how to deal with it once it gets into emacs
2015-12-21T01:51:58Z phoe_krk: I'll think about it later
2015-12-21T01:52:08Z phoe_krk: that must have something to do with flexi-streams
2015-12-21T01:52:10Z pjb: phoe_krk: M-x apropos RET coding system RET
2015-12-21T01:52:13Z phoe_krk: and I am too sleepy to think about it now.
2015-12-21T01:53:06Z pjb: set-clipboard-coding-system set-default-coding-systems set-buffer-process-coding-system set-buffer-file-coding-system set-display-table-and-terminal-coding-system set-file-name-coding-system set-keyboard-coding-system set-language-environment-coding-systems
2015-12-21T01:53:07Z pjb: etc.
2015-12-21T01:53:31Z pjb: At least, there are enough hooks in emacs that you should be able to make a correct configuration.
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2015-12-21T01:54:54Z |3b|: hmm, looks like slime-net-coding-system var still exists, so might verify that is set to utf8
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2015-12-21T01:55:59Z phoe_krk: uh
2015-12-21T01:56:01Z phoe_krk: in general
2015-12-21T01:56:07Z phoe_krk: when I copy stuff that my thing prints me
2015-12-21T01:56:13Z phoe_krk: like single letters
2015-12-21T01:56:16Z phoe_krk: I get numbers
2015-12-21T01:56:19Z phoe_krk:  
2015-12-21T01:56:54Z phoe_krk: D with halfstrikethrough (codepoint 4194279, #o17777747, #x3fffe7) for example
2015-12-21T01:56:55Z phoe_krk: weird stuff.
2015-12-21T01:57:06Z phoe_krk: I'll see it tomorrow because it's something going on with many characters.
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2015-12-21T01:59:35Z Zhivago: Comes from the pre-unicode era, so cruft is to be expected.
2015-12-21T01:59:59Z |3b|: ok, looks like that var should be ignored since slime 2.4, and slime only UTF8 for that part
2015-12-21T02:01:47Z phoe_krk: night
2015-12-21T02:02:55Z |3b|: phoe_krk: i'd say next step tomorrow is try to send your output to a string and inspect that with char-code and similar and make sure it looks OK on the lisp side. alternately, try running from command line and see what the string looks like there
2015-12-21T02:04:39Z |3b|: phoe_krk: for example with (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) ...) if you don't write to a specific stream, might let you try without changing code
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2015-12-21T02:28:07Z MikeSeth: what's the purpose of (intern "foo") returning the interned symbol as |foo|?
2015-12-21T02:28:41Z Bicyclidine: the reader upcases by default. so when you have (foo bar baz) in your code, the reader does the equivalent of (intern "FOO").
2015-12-21T02:29:02Z Bicyclidine: || are escape characters so it doesn't do the upcasing.
2015-12-21T02:30:12Z MikeSeth: oh, makes sense
2015-12-21T02:30:33Z MikeSeth: more dimensions to contemplate
2015-12-21T02:30:35Z MikeSeth: thanks!
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2015-12-21T03:19:59Z loke: phoe_krk: what code point is that?
2015-12-21T03:20:09Z loke: phoe_krk: that's not a real Unicode code point
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2015-12-21T04:19:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-12-21T04:20:05Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-12-21T04:29:32Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-12-21T05:54:54Z holycow: ooooohkay.  time to take a copy of lichteblau.com before that dissapears. Had no idea mcclim documentation existed.
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2015-12-21T06:00:26Z beach: McCLIM documentation is in the McCLIM distribution, but someone messed it up badly so it doesn't build properly.  I am about to reconstruct it to the state it was in when I wrote it.
2015-12-21T06:00:44Z holycow: oooh, that would be cool.
2015-12-21T06:01:02Z beach: But I am not working on it full time, so it will take some time.
2015-12-21T06:01:09Z holycow: not in any rush
2015-12-21T06:01:16Z holycow: i am just learning
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2015-12-21T06:02:50Z holycow: beach: thank you kindly for the work you have done on mcclim.  i don't know the whole history of it, but it looks like a lot of really cool ideas have been tried.
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2015-12-21T06:04:08Z beach: holycow: Thanks.  I can't take credit for even the majority of the work, but I suppose I will take credit for getting it to happen after Mike McDonald stalled.
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2015-12-21T06:05:01Z holycow: *nod* as with all things, we stand on the the shoulders of others.  i appreciate just having something like this.
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2015-12-21T06:30:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: Is there any reason not to give mandatory slots an :initform with a call to #'error?
2015-12-21T06:31:47Z H4ns: Petit_Dejeuner: the error message might be opaque.  other than that, i'd say it is fine.
2015-12-21T06:31:53Z pillton: I don't bother since I usually supply a MAKE-FOO function.
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2015-12-21T07:40:50Z moore33: What are the cool kids using to write documentation these days? In addition to the api, I'd like to include introductory material, with links to the API documentation. It would be nice to have this easily discoverable on github.
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2015-12-21T08:00:16Z loke: moore33: Some people use org-mode
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2015-12-21T08:00:50Z flip214: I believe the question was more about converting inline-comments to HTML, like doxygen does?!
2015-12-21T08:02:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: There's this. http://weitz.de/documentation-template/ moore33
2015-12-21T08:09:02Z moore33: flip214: Not necessarily. I don't mind putting must documentation in docstrings, but I do want to incorporate other material.
2015-12-21T08:09:12Z moore33: loke: With clod or something?
2015-12-21T08:09:39Z moore33: Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks.
2015-12-21T08:09:44Z loke: moore33: I don't know. I never did it myself, but have seen people mention it on multiple occasions.
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2015-12-21T08:18:24Z fe[nl]ix: moore33: I think the best choice at the moment is Sphinx
2015-12-21T08:18:45Z fe[nl]ix: there's even a plugin for including docstrings, but I've never tried that
2015-12-21T08:18:53Z fe[nl]ix: an example: https://letsencrypt.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
2015-12-21T08:20:09Z moore33: f[nl]ix: Thanks.
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2015-12-21T08:29:33Z moore33: fe[nl]ix: Do you have a pointer to a Common Lisp project that uses Sphinx?
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2015-12-21T08:32:27Z fe[nl]ix: http://cl-git.russellsim.org/
2015-12-21T08:33:34Z moore33: Hmm, cool.
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2015-12-21T08:36:14Z moore33: fe[nl]ix: Stupid question: is the .texinfo generated by Sphinx?
2015-12-21T08:37:10Z fe[nl]ix: what .texinfo ?
2015-12-21T08:37:50Z moore33: cl-git/doc/cl-git.texinfo
2015-12-21T08:38:05Z moore33: Oh! nevermind.
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2015-12-21T08:38:34Z moore33: fun with github
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2015-12-21T08:57:23Z quelqun_dautre: hi
2015-12-21T08:57:39Z quelqun_dautre: hello there
2015-12-21T08:57:45Z quelqun_dautre: is this a Common-LISP only channel ?
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2015-12-21T08:58:25Z H4ns: quelqun_dautre: yes.
2015-12-21T08:58:47Z quelqun_dautre: oh, sorry then.
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2015-12-21T08:59:06Z quelqun_dautre: well, anyway, is Common-LISP suitable for following SICP ? I'll begin it soon
2015-12-21T08:59:10Z H4ns: no.
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2015-12-21T08:59:30Z H4ns: sicp is using scheme as teaching device.  there are plenty of scheme implementations that you can use with it.
2015-12-21T09:00:10Z quelqun_dautre: Oh, I see. Well, thank you very much for your answer
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2015-12-21T09:01:51Z synchromesh: quelqun_dautre: For a longer answer, this Stack Overflow post seems pretty thorough: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1159208/can-i-use-common-lisp-for-sicp-or-is-scheme-the-only-option
2015-12-21T09:02:34Z synchromesh: quelqun_dautre: ... but with basically the same conclusion. :)
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2015-12-21T09:18:06Z resttime: For some odd reason I remembered about phoe_krk's CUT-STRING and then had to make a TCO version: http://paste.lisp.org/+5AOP/1
2015-12-21T09:18:55Z resttime: Errr, more like felt like making one that is.  Now I can rest easy :)
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2015-12-21T09:24:58Z resttime: Darn for some reason, phoe_krk's version is crashing my SBCL so I can't benchmark it.
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2015-12-21T09:27:56Z resttime: Ah wait that was a problem with my SLIME or something, some odd thing about max variable something, new REPL made that go away
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2015-12-21T09:48:19Z resttime: Awww, TCO is slower even after tweaking it faster. The problem is because there's an empty string that needs to get removed if add the end delimeters add up to the length of the string
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2015-12-21T09:49:52Z resttime: Though it won't blow the stack I guess...
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2015-12-21T10:12:46Z loke: resttime: Why do you mess with trying to TCO your code?
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2015-12-21T10:15:45Z resttime: loke: For fun I guess and a bit of an exercise.
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2015-12-21T10:16:26Z loke: resttime: As I am sure you are aware, CL doesn't guarantee any form of TCO. SBCO specifically requires a certain optimisation level for it to ever happen.
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2015-12-21T10:20:18Z resttime: Hmmm, I should move on to trying CPS.
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2015-12-21T10:22:29Z resttime: Though it kinda just stems down to "I see this way, what does it look like this way?" so I try to write that
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2015-12-21T10:23:22Z resttime: Err, I guess that's kind of why I try to think of a solution with MAP over LOOP when possible
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2015-12-21T10:23:58Z resttime: That is when LOOP happens to be the first solution I think of (I think)
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2015-12-21T10:25:01Z resttime: Ugh I think I need sleep gnite
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2015-12-21T10:27:28Z loke: find src -name '*.lisp' -exec grep loop {} + | wc -l
2015-12-21T10:27:30Z loke: 149
2015-12-21T10:27:49Z loke: Same for mapcar: 64
2015-12-21T10:27:57Z loke: Nothing wrong with loop
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2015-12-21T10:36:47Z dim: loop:169/mapcar:45 in pgloader ;-)
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2015-12-21T10:47:51Z Xof: (a) xargs is (are?) your friend (b) best check for "(loop" not just "loop", otherwise you'll make a blooper
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2015-12-21T10:53:14Z loke: Xof: How is xargs better in this case?
2015-12-21T10:53:33Z loke: And secondly, yes. I though t of that after I typed it. And I saw one false positive
2015-12-21T10:53:48Z loke: Sorry, yes. It was more than one
2015-12-21T10:54:18Z loke: 123 without false positives
2015-12-21T10:54:36Z Xof: oh, hey, today I learnt about -exec +
2015-12-21T10:54:39Z Xof: thanks :)
2015-12-21T10:54:42Z loke: :-)
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2015-12-21T10:59:12Z flip214: Xof: yeah, that's easier to type than \; too
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2015-12-21T11:41:17Z phoe_krk: |3b|: later I will try another workaround; I will try to turn these into a series of char-codes and see if anything is greater than 255. if they're okay, I'll print them using print or prin1. if not, then something's clearly broken on the connection side and not the printing side.
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2015-12-21T11:54:29Z phoe_krk: #lisp, I think I found it
2015-12-21T11:54:51Z phoe_krk: when I call char-code on the weird character, it gives me a proper code, 32<=code<=255
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2015-12-21T11:55:46Z Zhivago: Perhaps it is a sequence of characters that you are seeing as a single glyph?
2015-12-21T11:55:56Z phoe_krk: ...wait, does it?
2015-12-21T11:55:58Z phoe_krk: let me check again
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2015-12-21T11:58:26Z phoe_krk: this needs more investigation
2015-12-21T11:58:38Z phoe_krk: I'll run wireshark and check the bytes themselves and compare them to what my Lisp is printing.
2015-12-21T11:59:12Z phoe_krk: because printing the chars given to me by code-char gives me a different string than what I have.
2015-12-21T11:59:31Z phoe_krk: internally, everything is processed all right because the proxy I'm using works and the client communicates flawlessly. I only have trouble with printing.
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2015-12-21T12:06:54Z phoe_krk: I think I fixed it
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2015-12-21T12:07:19Z phoe_krk: by converting the weird chars to codes and then the codes to chars
2015-12-21T12:07:33Z phoe_krk: and everything seems to work so far. ...seems.
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2015-12-21T12:20:05Z phoe_krk: ...
2015-12-21T12:20:19Z phoe_krk: format from inside my code gives me different things than format from outside my code
2015-12-21T12:21:29Z blub: @_@
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2015-12-21T12:23:46Z phoe_krk: And char-code gives me different codes inside and outside of my code.
2015-12-21T12:24:02Z phoe_krk: suddenly I wish UTF-8 did not exist.
2015-12-21T12:25:14Z Xof: maybe you have different external formats in your two cases?
2015-12-21T12:26:19Z phoe_krk: Xof: I'm trying to set them the same. In one of them, I've set flexi-stream format to :latin-1. in the second, I've set sb-impl::*default-external-format* to :latin-1.
2015-12-21T12:26:23Z phoe_krk: Am I doing it wrong?
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2015-12-21T12:27:05Z Xof: I don't know
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2015-12-21T12:27:15Z phoe_krk: hum.
2015-12-21T12:29:38Z ggole: clhs format
2015-12-21T12:29:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm
2015-12-21T12:30:17Z ggole: Hmm, there's a bunch of specials format is affected by, but none of them seem to be encoding.
2015-12-21T12:30:59Z phoe_krk: (stream-external-format *standard-output*) fails for me, wrong type.
2015-12-21T12:31:15Z phoe_krk: I have swank/gray:slime-output-stream, I need sb-kernel:ansi-stream.
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2015-12-21T12:36:20Z phoe_krk: I'll try (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) in .emacs
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2015-12-21T12:41:06Z phoe_krk: nothing fixed so far
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2015-12-21T12:46:58Z phoe_krk: ....what format is *inferior-lisp* displayed in?
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2015-12-21T13:04:12Z phoe_krk: why the hell does the same list of octets get turned into different strings in REPL and *inferior-lisp*!?
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2015-12-21T13:05:08Z ggole: Both in emacs?
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2015-12-21T13:06:24Z phoe_krk: Yes.
2015-12-21T13:06:31Z Zhivago: Presumably due to differing special variables. :)
2015-12-21T13:07:09Z ggole: The coding system could be different
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2015-12-21T13:08:12Z phoe_krk: Huh. The question is, how do I set anything in *inferior-lisp* buffer?
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2015-12-21T13:08:42Z ggole: Well, check the coding system is different before messing around changing it
2015-12-21T13:09:10Z ggole: I think there's a tooltip you can click on if you are using GUI emacs
2015-12-21T13:09:21Z phoe_krk: I already know it's different. (flexi-streams:octets-to-string ...) gives different outputs depending on the buffer.
2015-12-21T13:09:33Z phoe_krk: Which tooltip though?
2015-12-21T13:09:47Z ggole: It's on the bottom left next to the :
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2015-12-21T13:12:41Z Zhivago: phoe: You are reliving the horror of life before unicode. ;)
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2015-12-21T13:15:49Z nyef: Unicode in a nutshell: http://www.xkcd.com/927/
2015-12-21T13:16:23Z phoe_krk: Zhivago: I'm reliving the horror of life AFTER Unicode.
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2015-12-21T13:19:07Z Zhivago: I don't think so.
2015-12-21T13:19:21Z Zhivago: This is all because emacs is a hideous relic upon which unicode was retrofitted.
2015-12-21T13:20:10Z phoe_krk:  ;_;
2015-12-21T13:20:18Z Jonsky: Problem: I cannot *print-circle* in sbcl somehow.
2015-12-21T13:20:18Z minion: Jonsky, memo from beach: It is problematic to apply what you read in SICP to Common Lisp.  In Scheme, defining a function with DEFINE inside a LET defines the function in the local environment.  In Common Lisp, DEFUN always defines the function in the global environment.
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2015-12-21T13:20:22Z phoe_krk: okay, all buffers run in unicode by default now.
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2015-12-21T13:20:37Z phoe_krk: Jonsky: isn't *print-circle* set to always true in SBCL?
2015-12-21T13:20:48Z Jonsky: phoe_krk: I checked, no
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2015-12-21T13:21:20Z Jonsky: and even when I (let ((*print-circle* t)) ...) it, it gave me infinite printing, so much fun LOL
2015-12-21T13:22:41Z Jonsky: minion: Thanks for the memo !! Yesterday I just figured out that Scheme is static scoped while CL is not so that's why I couldn't write a closure in the CL way. But now I have another confusion: How does Cl get the binding of function name in the global environment then...?
2015-12-21T13:22:42Z minion: np
2015-12-21T13:22:45Z phoe_krk: hm
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2015-12-21T13:22:59Z phoe_krk: (setf *print-circle* t) ;=> T
2015-12-21T13:23:23Z phoe_krk: (let* ((a (cons 0 nil)) (b (cons 1 nil))) (setf (cdr a) b (cdr b) a)) ;=> #1=(0 1 . #1#)
2015-12-21T13:23:31Z phoe_krk: works for me?
2015-12-21T13:23:47Z blub: jonsky: symbol-function ?
2015-12-21T13:25:01Z Jonsky: blub: This is where the confusion is. I thought everything happened in (let ...) stays in the (let ...)
2015-12-21T13:25:07Z Jonsky: Just like Vegas...
2015-12-21T13:25:15Z Zhivago: Jonsky: Um, scheme and CL have the same kind of scoping.
2015-12-21T13:25:27Z Zhivago: Jonsky: That is, lexical scoping.
2015-12-21T13:25:36Z Jonsky: Zhivago: not really, CL also has dynamic scoping
2015-12-21T13:25:42Z Jonsky: I did a bit of experiment.
2015-12-21T13:25:56Z Jonsky: (let (...) (defun bla...))
2015-12-21T13:25:56Z Zhivago: Jonsky: Which you fouled up -- CL's special variables are lexically scoped.
2015-12-21T13:26:03Z Jonsky: This will get to the  global environment.
2015-12-21T13:26:04Z blub: defun defines functions globally
2015-12-21T13:26:16Z blub: you want flet
2015-12-21T13:26:20Z Zhivago: Jonsky: The only interesting thing about specials is that they refer to the same value.
2015-12-21T13:26:28Z Jonsky: But if I (let (..) (define bla (lambda ..))), this won't work
2015-12-21T13:26:39Z mtl_: phoe_krk: I've found this function quite useful: http://pastie.org/10645354
2015-12-21T13:26:44Z Zhivago: Jonksy: You are wrong. That does not get you to the global environment.
2015-12-21T13:27:00Z Zhivago: Jonsky: It just causes the defun'd function to have a lexical closure.
2015-12-21T13:27:30Z phoe_krk: mtl_: I'l using flexi-streams which does the same, I'm finding out it's an emacs issue
2015-12-21T13:27:56Z mtl_: I think I've had some similar issues a long time ago
2015-12-21T13:27:57Z Jonsky: Maybe I got the langauge wrong but my point is that I cannot define inside a (let ) in Scheme. But I can perfectly defun inside a (let ). This brought me a lot of confusion.
2015-12-21T13:28:00Z mtl_: let me check my emacs
2015-12-21T13:28:02Z Zhivago: In scheme, you can produce the same effect by writing (define a #f) (let ((b 2)) (set! a (lambda () b)))
2015-12-21T13:28:03Z mtl_: .emacs
2015-12-21T13:28:25Z Jonsky: Yes I got that. And I tried to understand why.
2015-12-21T13:28:37Z Zhivago: Jonksy: Because your mental model is incorrect.
2015-12-21T13:28:43Z Jonsky: Then I stared at chapter 4  SICP
2015-12-21T13:28:52Z Jonsky: I got the model.
2015-12-21T13:28:59Z Jonsky: But this model won't fit CL
2015-12-21T13:29:07Z Zhivago: Jonksy: Scheme has two define operators -- one at the top level and one elsewhere, which have different semantics.
2015-12-21T13:29:16Z Zhivago: That model fits CL precisely, except for the syntax.
2015-12-21T13:29:37Z Zhivago: In both cases you are binding functions with lexical closures to top level variables.
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2015-12-21T13:30:29Z mtl_: phoe_krk: http://pastie.org/10645362
2015-12-21T13:30:32Z mtl_: dunno if that helps at all
2015-12-21T13:30:37Z phoe_krk: checking
2015-12-21T13:31:58Z Jonsky: Zhivago: The model extends the environment whenever we have a (let). And everything happens there will not be accessible every after leaving it. I thought this is why we cannot have (let ...(defin  )). The definition is just lost somewhere after leaving (let )
2015-12-21T13:32:03Z Jonsky: But CL is different.
2015-12-21T13:32:10Z Zhivago: Jonsky: Your model is wrong.
2015-12-21T13:32:25Z Zhivago: Jonsky: A let permits a lexical closure to be established over the bindings in the let.
2015-12-21T13:32:27Z Jonsky: We do (let ..(defun...)) and we can still call the function we defun-ed inside the let
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2015-12-21T13:32:41Z Zhivago: If this occurs, they will remain accessible via the lexical closure.
2015-12-21T13:32:47Z Zhivago: This is true in both CL and scheme.
2015-12-21T13:33:29Z Zhivago: See above: defun establishes a top-level function binding -- not a binding in the innermost lexical scope.
2015-12-21T13:33:39Z Jonsky: Then why we cannot have (let ) outside of (define ) in scheme?
2015-12-21T13:33:57Z Zhivago: See above: scheme has two define operators with different semantics ...
2015-12-21T13:34:00Z Jonsky: (I am still trying to digest your sentence)
2015-12-21T13:34:14Z Jonsky: Hang on one sec.
2015-12-21T13:34:23Z Zhivago: One define operator exists at the top level, the other in local lexical scopes.
2015-12-21T13:34:24Z Jonsky: You mean, two define with the same name??
2015-12-21T13:34:40Z Zhivago: No. Two different operators, both called 'define'.
2015-12-21T13:34:49Z Jonsky: WOW
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2015-12-21T13:34:52Z Jonsky: This is ...WOW.
2015-12-21T13:34:59Z Jonsky: I never thought of that.
2015-12-21T13:35:03Z ggole: define that is nested in an expression is sugar for let rec.
2015-12-21T13:35:12Z Jonsky: OMG.
2015-12-21T13:35:18Z ggole: define at top level is sugar for set! (more or less)
2015-12-21T13:35:58Z Jonsky: Now I see why.....
2015-12-21T13:36:01Z Jonsky: a bit
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2015-12-21T13:36:14Z ggole: This is done so that successive defines can refer to each other
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2015-12-21T13:37:15Z Jonsky: So that's why the define inside (let ) is lost , because it's never a define?
2015-12-21T13:37:25Z Jonsky: (or the define I thought it was)
2015-12-21T13:37:39Z Zhivago: It is not lost -- it just doesn't establish a top-level binding.
2015-12-21T13:37:44Z ggole: It has no effect on the global environment, if that's what you mean by lost.
2015-12-21T13:37:55Z Zhivago: If you expect it to establish a top-level binding, then you might confuse that with it being lost.
2015-12-21T13:37:58Z Jonsky: Yes, sorry for my langauge.
2015-12-21T13:38:25Z Zhivago: If you establish one and then capture it to the top-level using set! you will see that it remains.
2015-12-21T13:38:26Z ggole: What you probably want is (define name (let ... (lambda (arg1 arg2) ...)))
2015-12-21T13:38:36Z Jonsky: Because I was surprised I defined something inside (let ) and then tried to access it in the top-level and couldn't get it anymore.
2015-12-21T13:38:47Z Jonsky: But I could get this again at the top level in CL.
2015-12-21T13:38:50Z Jonsky: This is the confusion.
2015-12-21T13:39:12Z ggole: Yep. CL and Scheme are quite different in the places where they differ.
2015-12-21T13:39:43Z Jonsky: ggole: Yes I know this can be done. I just don't understand why it has to be done in this way. :(
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2015-12-21T13:40:17Z mtl_: phoe_krk: any luck?
2015-12-21T13:40:23Z phoe_krk: checking
2015-12-21T13:40:29Z phoe_krk: I already had your lines in my .emacs
2015-12-21T13:40:36Z mtl_: ah, oh well
2015-12-21T13:41:05Z mtl_: emacs is not my strong su
2015-12-21T13:41:11Z mtl_: suit
2015-12-21T13:41:19Z mtl_: i pretty much just tolerate it to use slime
2015-12-21T13:41:45Z phoe_krk: ...
2015-12-21T13:41:46Z phoe_krk: no
2015-12-21T13:42:44Z phoe_krk: http://i.imgur.com/gAHdksP.png
2015-12-21T13:44:13Z flip214: mtl_: vim user? Do you know about slimv?
2015-12-21T13:45:54Z mtl_: yes
2015-12-21T13:45:56Z mtl_: and yes
2015-12-21T13:46:08Z mtl_: but I'm pretty happy with slime, paredit
2015-12-21T13:46:13Z mtl_: and emacs for editing lisp
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2015-12-21T13:48:37Z mtl_: and playing tetris
2015-12-21T13:48:41Z mtl_: that's pretty much it
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2015-12-21T13:52:38Z shka: hmmm
2015-12-21T13:52:41Z flip214: okay. just wanted to list another option.
2015-12-21T13:52:50Z shka: i was using vim before i started to be interested in cl
2015-12-21T13:53:02Z shka: now i'm using emacs for everything
2015-12-21T13:53:03Z Jonsky: Zhivago: Thanks so much. I did a bit of experiment just now and found that (symbol-function) somehow is a big magical. It can just put binding in the top level every when it was called inside a (let ).
2015-12-21T13:53:27Z shka: i especially like org mode
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2015-12-21T14:02:00Z dim: I don't do everything with Emacs, only email, IRC, code, docs, reports, notes, shells (bash, psql) and slime... and some more I guess ;-)
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2015-12-21T14:09:19Z pjb: phoe_krk: you can use the babel system instead of char-code/code-char, to encode/decode characters with a consistent encoding system.
2015-12-21T14:09:38Z phoe_krk: pjb: so babel does more than just flexi-streams?
2015-12-21T14:10:48Z dim: babel knows about plenty of encodings, it's like a collection of :external-format
2015-12-21T14:10:52Z pjb: I use it mostly to (babel:octets-to-string (babel:string-to-octets "hello" :encoding :utf-8) :encoding :utf-8) #| --> "hello" |#
2015-12-21T14:12:24Z pjb: so notably char-code can be replaced by: (subseq (babel:string-to-octets (string #\h) :encoding :utf-32) 4) #| --> #(104 0 0 0) |#
2015-12-21T14:12:48Z pjb: or some other encoding as practical for you.
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2015-12-21T14:13:55Z pjb: (there's probably an internal function to have that directly).
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2015-12-21T14:15:05Z pjb: phoe_krk: you can change the encoding used by a comint buffer with emacs commands: set-buffer-process-coding-system (and for a good measure, set-buffer-file-coding-system too; I keep they synchronized).
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2015-12-21T14:15:34Z phoe_krk: yes, thank you, I've picked that up from #emacs
2015-12-21T14:15:49Z pjb: nyef: and there's 8 different versions of Unicode standards to choose from! :-)
2015-12-21T14:16:34Z nyef: pjb: Even better!
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2015-12-21T14:16:54Z pjb: Zhivago: the problem would be the same if you started from scratch, and comes basically from the fact that unix files are streams of bytes.  If we had text files at the system level, all programs would use the same format/encoding for all the text files (fat chance).
2015-12-21T14:17:15Z nyef: Not to mention that there's still a little matter of incomplete distribution, so I'm STILL dealing with Mac OS Roman character sets on a regular basis.
2015-12-21T14:17:33Z pjb: Yes, you can always have to read old files.
2015-12-21T14:18:09Z dim: there's also the joke that even filenames are binary
2015-12-21T14:18:36Z dim: or to put it another way, the encoding of the file names in the file system is unknown, it just happens to somehow work
2015-12-21T14:19:35Z nyef: pjb: Old files nothing! Every month, a handful of new files, typically created within the three days prior to my getting them.
2015-12-21T14:19:40Z pjb: dim: no, no, you're right, they're binary.  You can perfectly 1- name a file with a binary sequence that corresponds to no character in any known encoding; 2- have pathnames where various components are encoded with different encodings!
2015-12-21T14:19:56Z pjb: nyef: :-) old programs then.
2015-12-21T14:20:21Z nyef: In at least one case, a program written within the past two years.
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2015-12-21T14:21:24Z nyef: ... which they promptly tried to shove Chinese text through. I was not impressed.
2015-12-21T14:21:25Z phoe_krk: does babel have any encoding list? I'm having trouble finding the one for windows-1250
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2015-12-21T14:24:18Z pjb: nyef: but does it run on MacOS?  Or is it developped in an old language?
2015-12-21T14:24:26Z nyef: I have no idea.
2015-12-21T14:24:56Z nyef: ... I get the impression that it might be a PHP script, but I really have no idea.
2015-12-21T14:25:00Z pjb: there seems to be :windows-1251 :windows-1252
2015-12-21T14:25:28Z phoe_krk: well, it's not what I want.
2015-12-21T14:25:31Z phoe_krk: or need.
2015-12-21T14:25:46Z pjb: nyef: perhaps it was developped by somebody who believe MacOSX and MacOS are the same thing, and thought he'll be doing a favor using MacRoman to send files to MacOSX :-)
2015-12-21T14:26:19Z nyef: No, that's EXCEL that does that.
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2015-12-21T14:27:42Z dim: CP1250                        CP1250, WINDOWS-1250, WINDOWS-1250
2015-12-21T14:27:56Z dim: that's part of SBCL, in the list of its know external-format
2015-12-21T14:28:20Z phoe_krk: yes, but Babel complains about not knowing what it is.
2015-12-21T14:28:33Z nyef: Babel is not SBCL.
2015-12-21T14:28:41Z dim: if you use SBCL you might not have to require babel for that
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2015-12-21T14:30:11Z nyef: Does Babel support MacRoman yet? I know that SBCL does.
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2015-12-21T14:32:20Z kami`: Good afternoon.
2015-12-21T14:32:39Z pjb: minion: memo for Jonsky: you can implement your own scheme-let in CL: http://paste.lisp.org/+5I7X
2015-12-21T14:32:39Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Jonsky when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-12-21T14:33:36Z blub: hi kami`
2015-12-21T14:34:05Z pjb: Nope, no Macintosh encoding for babel :-(
2015-12-21T14:34:28Z pjb: But you might be able to add encoding definitions to it from user programs.
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2015-12-21T14:35:30Z nyef: Meh. I'll just stick with what I know works: SBCL. If someone wants to port my programs and libraries they're welcome to.
2015-12-21T14:36:24Z phoe_krk: there, I broke it all. akjhfksjhlojhjskjghg.
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2015-12-21T15:19:44Z phoe_krk: I found the problem
2015-12-21T15:19:45Z phoe_krk: http://i.imgur.com/2jPV0eN.png
2015-12-21T15:20:24Z phoe_krk: look at how the string is printed above (in REPL) and how it is printed below (in *inferior-lisp*).
2015-12-21T15:20:37Z phoe_krk: the thing is, I have no idea how to fix it just yet.
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2015-12-21T15:28:58Z phoe_krk: it seems that *inferior-lisp* and *slime-repl sbcl*, for some reason, have different way of encoding things. Why? How?
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2015-12-21T15:29:58Z phoe_krk: could anyone verify whether this happens with them? http://paste.lisp.org/display/257680 is the source.
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2015-12-21T15:31:18Z Xach: phoe_krk: what do you get for M-x getenv LANG
2015-12-21T15:31:31Z phoe_krk: PLK
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2015-12-21T15:32:25Z Xach: phoe_krk: what do you get in *infeior-lisp* repl with (uiop:getenv "LANG")?
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2015-12-21T15:32:43Z phoe_krk: "PLK"
2015-12-21T15:32:48Z phoe_krk: oh, wait
2015-12-21T15:32:51Z phoe_krk: that's in slime-repl
2015-12-21T15:32:57Z phoe_krk: "PLK", too
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2015-12-21T15:33:44Z Xach: phoe_krk: is PLK in the list when you use "locale -a" in a shell?
2015-12-21T15:34:16Z phoe_krk: 'locale' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
2015-12-21T15:34:18Z phoe_krk: :P
2015-12-21T15:34:33Z phoe_krk: I doubt it's the response I should have given
2015-12-21T15:35:17Z phoe_krk: but I'm looking at that variable right now
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2015-12-21T15:46:00Z phoe_krk: PLK is some windows-only thing
2015-12-21T15:46:28Z phoe_krk: https://www.microsoft.com/resources/msdn/goglobal/default.mspx
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2015-12-21T15:49:15Z phoe_krk: fffff, it seems that tweaking set-terminal-coding-system and slime-net-coding-system doesn't do a thing
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2015-12-21T15:52:18Z Xach: oh, ok, sorry.
2015-12-21T15:52:30Z Xach was not paying close enough attention and assumed unixy
2015-12-21T15:54:57Z phoe_krk: it's all okay
2015-12-21T15:55:06Z phoe_krk: it's Windows 8.1 64 in Polish localization
2015-12-21T15:55:25Z phoe_krk: I really wonder if it happens on a brand new SBCL
2015-12-21T15:55:32Z phoe_krk: scratch that, I wonder if it happens on other lisps
2015-12-21T15:55:34Z phoe_krk: *implementations
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2015-12-21T16:00:55Z phoe_krk: does ECL have any kind of .rc file it runs on the beginning?
2015-12-21T16:01:50Z dim: CL-USER> (QL-IMPL-UTIL::INIT-FILE-NAME-FOR "ecl")
2015-12-21T16:01:50Z dim: ".eclrc"
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2015-12-21T16:02:28Z rudolfochrist: phoe_krk: random shot here: had you set sb-impl::*default-external-format* to :utf-8? Solved some utf-8 problems I had with sbcl
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2015-12-21T16:02:42Z rudolfochrist: s/had/have
2015-12-21T16:02:53Z dim: should be inherited from the env wherein you run sbcl, IIUC
2015-12-21T16:03:08Z dim: but I've been playing with that interactively too for good measure
2015-12-21T16:04:45Z phoe_krk_: dim: sbcl has .sbclrc, ecl has .eclrc
2015-12-21T16:04:56Z phoe_krk_: that's where quicklisp init resides
2015-12-21T16:05:22Z phoe_krk_: anyway, http://i.imgur.com/OcapRO7.png - that's what ECL gives me
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2015-12-21T16:05:27Z phoe_krk: two different outputs again.
2015-12-21T16:06:09Z pjb: phoe_krk: #o200 is not the code of any character, in ISO-8859-1 or in Unicode.
2015-12-21T16:06:18Z pjb: phoe_krk: #o200 is a fucking CONTROL CODE!
2015-12-21T16:06:28Z pjb: same as #o233, etc.
2015-12-21T16:07:02Z pjb: phoe_krk: now, the question is how is your DEVICE _controlled_ by those _codes_?
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2015-12-21T16:09:21Z phoe_krk: pjb, it doesn't explain a single thing why character codes after that are different. running the same function as I posted with different numbers produces different results regardless of where I begin from, whether I include these control codes or not.
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2015-12-21T16:09:40Z phoe_krk: if I begin from 160 and repeat 96 times, the printed characters differ either way.
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2015-12-21T16:10:16Z pjb: phoe_krk: check: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes#C1_set
2015-12-21T16:11:32Z pjb: Yes, in *inferior-lisp* it's not interpreting utf-8.  As I mentionned above, try: M-x set-buffer-process-coding-system RET utf-8 RET in *inferior-lisp*.
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2015-12-21T16:12:34Z phoe_krk: pjb: no change upon that command, also, I see what Wiki is telling me
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2015-12-21T16:12:47Z phoe_krk: ...okay, gimme a moment.
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2015-12-21T16:13:33Z pjb: You may also (setf default-process-coding-system '(utf-8-unix . utf-8-unix)) or use ,df modify-coding-system-alist
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2015-12-21T16:14:54Z pjb: phoe_krk: are you running emacs in a terminal?
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2015-12-21T16:15:00Z phoe_krk: pjb: no, windows gui
2015-12-21T16:15:04Z pjb: ok
2015-12-21T16:16:18Z pjb: For a time I had some latin-1 and latin-9 configured, but nowadays, all my emacs coding systems are utf-8.
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2015-12-21T16:25:34Z phoe_krk_: hum
2015-12-21T16:26:02Z phoe_krk_: I have this protocol that uses charcodes 32 to 255 and sends data in LF-terminated lines.
2015-12-21T16:26:14Z phoe_krk_: so I find it very handy to treat that data as strings.
2015-12-21T16:26:28Z phoe_krk_: and mostly process them as strings.
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2015-12-21T16:27:43Z pjb: phoe_krk: yes, don't use strings. Keep the data in vectors of octets.
2015-12-21T16:27:58Z nyef: What's the matter with base-strings for that?
2015-12-21T16:28:09Z phoe_krk: pjb: it's so hard to see what's going on in the protocol then.
2015-12-21T16:28:16Z phoe_krk: let me give you an example of a wireshark, hold on...
2015-12-21T16:28:18Z pjb: phoe_krk: you can still process them as strings, because Common Lisp strings are VECTORS, and therefore ALL the vector and array operations you used on your strings still work on your vectors of octets!
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2015-12-21T16:28:23Z pjb: subseq, mismatch, etc.
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2015-12-21T16:28:24Z nyef: Okay, yeah, code-points 127 through 255 could be a pain.
2015-12-21T16:28:32Z phoe_krk: pjb: oh, yes, I, um, actually do that.
2015-12-21T16:28:43Z phoe_krk: I just display them as strings.
2015-12-21T16:28:56Z phoe_krk: let me wireshark a piece of that though.
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2015-12-21T16:29:09Z pjb: phoe_krk: what you just need, is to rewrite a couple of string specific functions to work with vectors of octets, such as voctet< voctet-equalp etc.
2015-12-21T16:29:20Z pjb: and of course, a voctet-format can be nice.
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2015-12-21T16:29:36Z pjb: See for example: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii
2015-12-21T16:30:50Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:ascii-format nil "HELO ~A~%" "localhost") #| --> #(72 69 76 79 32 108 111 99 97 108 104 111 115 116 13 10) <- notice the CR LF specified for ~% in ascii-format. |#
2015-12-21T16:30:50Z phoe_krk: pjb: http://pastebin.com/8bdH0HZg
2015-12-21T16:30:56Z phoe_krk: 95% of these are lines coming from server
2015-12-21T16:31:24Z phoe_krk: hence the enjoyment.
2015-12-21T16:31:31Z phoe_krk: and I just, hm.
2015-12-21T16:31:37Z pjb: An alternative, is to map those codes, to unicode characters in the user planes.
2015-12-21T16:31:47Z phoe_krk: yes, I'm thinking of that.
2015-12-21T16:31:51Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Use_Areas
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2015-12-21T16:32:21Z phoe_krk: Wireshark obviousljy dotted out the spots it couldn't comprehend.
2015-12-21T16:32:22Z pjb: Just adding #xF0000 to them.
2015-12-21T16:32:45Z phoe_krk: But I think you can see what I gain by treating them as strings.
2015-12-21T16:32:59Z pjb: Only displaying is easier.
2015-12-21T16:33:14Z pjb: All the other processing is the same, again, you are using vector or array functions to process your strings.
2015-12-21T16:33:22Z pjb: Check it out, in the string chapter, there's nothing interesting.
2015-12-21T16:33:37Z phoe_krk: Huh.
2015-12-21T16:33:40Z pjb: (and string< etc, are actually string designator functions: (string< 'hello 'world) #| --> 0 |# )
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2015-12-21T16:33:46Z phoe_krk: Only displaying is easier.
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2015-12-21T16:34:24Z pjb: Yes.  And even, you can write a reader macro and a print-object method on a wrapper if you wanted to have a nice display.
2015-12-21T16:34:32Z phoe_krk: Hm, hm, hm.
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2015-12-21T16:34:41Z phoe_krk: Wait a second.
2015-12-21T16:35:02Z phoe_krk: Right now, my flexi-stream essentially maps all the characters from the windows-1250 used on the server-side to proper char-codes.
2015-12-21T16:35:27Z pjb: You could have: (octet-format nil "HELO ~A~%" "localhost") --> {HELO localhost⏎}
2015-12-21T16:36:24Z pjb: or “HELO localhost⏎}
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2015-12-21T16:36:32Z pjb: or “HELO localhost⏎” I mean.
2015-12-21T16:37:23Z pjb: (type-of “HELO localhost⏎”) --> (vector (unsigned-byte 8) 16)
2015-12-21T16:38:04Z phoe_krk: that would be sweet
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2015-12-21T16:38:15Z phoe_krk: okay, I have to run now
2015-12-21T16:38:17Z pjb: ok, there's string-trim etc.
2015-12-21T16:38:20Z phoe_krk: see you in ~4 hours
2015-12-21T16:38:37Z pjb: I have a com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:list-trim
2015-12-21T16:39:12Z phoe_krk: I'll need to think why should I bother with voctets though if simple strings work fine, all I need is a reader and printer macro for them because of their control strings.
2015-12-21T16:39:54Z phoe_krk: find out the subset that is common within ascii and unicode and prints evenly, replace the rest with some sort of escaped codes, and works.
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2015-12-21T16:40:00Z phoe_krk: that's my simple thought at least.
2015-12-21T16:40:03Z phoe_krk afk
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2015-12-21T16:42:04Z pjb: phoe_krk: notice how the standard doesn't impose that there's a char for every `(integer 0 ,(1- char-code-limit)).  So (code-char #x88) could return NIL.  On the other hand, (princ #\UF0088) #| 󰂈 --> #\U+F0088 |#  may be not better than (princ (code-char #x88)) #| ˆ --> #\U+0088 |#
2015-12-21T16:43:48Z nyef: Right, "plain text" is an incompletely-specified binary file format. Every so often I manage to forget that inconvenient little fact. /-:
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2015-12-21T17:10:57Z pjb: nyef: be happy that you don't have to deal with printer chains (or balls) :-)
2015-12-21T17:12:39Z nyef: Not anymore, at least. (-:
2015-12-21T17:12:57Z nyef: (Though I was more partial to dot-matrix printers back in the day.)
2015-12-21T17:13:10Z pjb: Try writing your program using an AZERTY terminal (producing ISO 646-25 (old French ASCII)) and printing on a printer with an APL ball :-)
2015-12-21T17:13:44Z pjb: thru an IBM with EBCDIC system of course.
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2015-12-21T17:49:11Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-12-21T17:49:32Z Jonsky bows to beach
2015-12-21T17:50:35Z Jonsky: beach: Thanks for the memo
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2015-12-21T17:50:35Z minion: Jonsky, memo from pjb: you can implement your own scheme-let in CL: http://paste.lisp.org/+5I7X
2015-12-21T17:50:52Z beach: Jonsky: Anytime.
2015-12-21T17:51:10Z beach: Jonsky: It might not be such a good idea to use SICP to learn Common Lisp.
2015-12-21T17:53:14Z Jonsky: beach: I am not using SICP to learn CL but I am trying to understand the different behaviour.
2015-12-21T17:53:46Z Jonsky: I type this ==> the computer gives me that. This is okay. But I want to know what's under the hood.
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2015-12-21T17:53:56Z beach: Jonsky: I see.  But then #lisp is not a great place for that.
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2015-12-21T17:54:06Z Jonsky: After some thinking I think I figured out the *why*.
2015-12-21T17:54:23Z Zhivago: One problem is that there is no 'the hood'.
2015-12-21T17:54:34Z Zhivago: There are various 'a hood's.
2015-12-21T17:54:34Z Jonsky: The model in SICP stops at the first frame.
2015-12-21T17:54:46Z Jonsky: That's the reason I cannot use define in the (let )
2015-12-21T17:54:59Z Zhivago: So you can pick a particular hood to look under, but don't expect it to necessarily generalize
2015-12-21T17:55:28Z Jonsky: And if I change that , my toy scheme will act like CL, binding of function names will happen at the top level.
2015-12-21T17:55:47Z beach: Jonsky: It is probably best to stick to Common Lisp behavior when you ask here.
2015-12-21T17:56:02Z Jonsky: beach: I will keep that in mind. Thanks.
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2015-12-21T17:57:10Z beach: Jonsky: In many cases, the reason for doing it a particular way may not be technical or very profound.
2015-12-21T17:57:11Z Jonsky: pjb: Thanks for the macro. It's always a fun to read how people can manipulate Lisp with macros. It's almost like a lie of a lover.
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2015-12-21T17:57:41Z Jonsky: Zhivago: Yes, silly me, I thought the behaviours are general.
2015-12-21T17:59:39Z Jonsky: beach: It's a bit like magic. Before I got it, CL's ability to bind a function name on the top levels seems like magic to me. After getting it, it's like getting the trick behind magic.
2015-12-21T17:59:43Z beach: Jonsky: What made you think that you could generalize this way?  I am curious.
2015-12-21T18:00:21Z Jonsky: beach: Just some silly preconception.
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2015-12-21T18:00:34Z Jonsky: But I think it's worth the struggle.
2015-12-21T18:00:48Z Jonsky: Now I see I can do thinks in a different way.
2015-12-21T18:00:51Z Jonsky: things*
2015-12-21T18:01:27Z Jonsky: If I only ever knew Scheme or CL I would be stuck in a false preconception for a long time.
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2015-12-21T18:02:39Z Jonsky: I would believe there's no way to bind a function at the top level when I 'm defining a function in a deeply nested (let ). Or I might thing that functions by some magic can only be bound at the top level.
2015-12-21T18:03:52Z beach: There is a huge number of different ways of designing a programming language; which is probably why there are so many of them that are mutually different is many ways.
2015-12-21T18:04:16Z Jonsky: I guess I really should read Lisp in small pieces later.
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2015-12-21T18:04:30Z beach: Jonsky: And if I understand what you are saying, you are about to design yet another one, which will be different in some more ways from both Common Lisp and Scheme.
2015-12-21T18:04:38Z pjb: Jonsky: to understand the differences between Common Lisp and scheme,  you will have to learn both Common Lisp and scheme.  For scheme, you're lucky, you can just read the r5rs which is less than 50 pages.
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2015-12-21T18:05:02Z Jonsky: Nah, not to design. I'm not that ambitious. Just want to understand what's going on there.
2015-12-21T18:05:30Z Jonsky: pjb: Yeah I heard that. Scheme is famous for this.
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2015-12-21T18:06:31Z Jonsky: People always talk about the difference between these two guys. One is large another one is small. One has one namesapce for both functions and variable while another has two namespaces etc.
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2015-12-21T18:07:32Z Jonsky: THen the discussion would at some point turn a bit religious LOL.
2015-12-21T18:07:54Z warweasle: Help with CFFI!
2015-12-21T18:07:56Z beach: There are more profound differences.  Maybe they fixed this, but Scheme used to be defined not with a READ function, so that (a . (b)) was different from (a b) in code in Scheme.
2015-12-21T18:08:15Z pjb: Jonsky: have a look at: https://web.archive.org/web/20150910212631/http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
2015-12-21T18:08:15Z warweasle: How do I defctype as an ARRAY of Values?
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2015-12-21T18:09:15Z pjb: warweasle: there's no Values in C.
2015-12-21T18:09:29Z pjb: no ARRAY either.  You could make an array of int.
2015-12-21T18:09:50Z warweasle: pjb: An array of ints example world work.
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2015-12-21T18:10:10Z warweasle: pjb: I'm trying to define an array (4) of doubles.
2015-12-21T18:10:32Z warweasle: pjb: But I'm using dreal so I can change them to singles if I need to.
2015-12-21T18:10:37Z Jonsky: beach: actually this created some confusion for me at the start. I found it hard to understand that I can type two different things and repl would think they are the same.
2015-12-21T18:10:39Z Zhivago: Remember that you cannot pass arrays in C -- you'll pass a pointer to the first element instead.
2015-12-21T18:10:41Z Jonsky: Then I got used to this
2015-12-21T18:10:57Z Jonsky: pjb: Nice one!!!
2015-12-21T18:11:01Z Jonsky: pjb: thanks!
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2015-12-21T18:11:17Z warweasle: What about cstructs? Can they do translations?
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2015-12-21T18:12:45Z warweasle: pjb: What I really need is a nice way to translate between '(simple-array single-float (4)) and (cffi:double (4))
2015-12-21T18:13:00Z pjb: I would have done: (cffi:defctype v4 (:array 4 :int)) but I see no mention :array in the doc.
2015-12-21T18:13:38Z Zhivago: Presumably due to the lack of array type values.
2015-12-21T18:13:38Z warweasle: pjb: That *sort* of works. But I'm having trouble with the conversions.
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2015-12-21T18:13:59Z pjb: IIRC, there's a way to define custom conversions.
2015-12-21T18:14:10Z pjb: Perhaps it's a case where you have to do it.
2015-12-21T18:16:11Z pjb: Jonsky: notice that there's some lore in lisp, so that all lexically scoped names are established only by the form that define the scope, so that the parenthesis of that form represents literally textually the scope.
2015-12-21T18:16:46Z pjb: Jonsky: what that means, is that in (let ((x 1) (y 3)) (+ x y)) the lexical scope of x and y are the parentheses around the LET.
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2015-12-21T18:18:05Z pjb: Jonsky: but in scheme, (let ((x 1)) (set! x 2) (define y 2) (+ x y)) the scope of y goes from the closing parenthesis of (define y 2) to the closing parenthesis of let!
2015-12-21T18:18:17Z pjb: Jonsky: I'd say that most lisper would consider that very ugly.
2015-12-21T18:18:39Z beach: pjb: But since Scheme is not "a Lisp", who cares.
2015-12-21T18:19:21Z beach: Many languages are even uglier than that.
2015-12-21T18:19:29Z moore33: pjb:It seemed fine at the time :)
2015-12-21T18:19:32Z pjb: Jonsky: notice how we've said that scheme (let (define) . body) is equivalent to (let (flet . body)) in CL. That is, flet defines a lexical scope for function names, where the scope again is delimited by the parentheses around the flet, not around whatever is above the flet.
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2015-12-21T18:20:40Z pjb: beach: let's not discuss whether scheme is a lisp or not; but we can do the same in CL too, cf. eg. declarations, (they have a scope of the outer form, obviously), and other macros such as my scheme-let example.
2015-12-21T18:20:54Z pjb: Only, I don't consider this is good practice.
2015-12-21T18:21:18Z pjb: …to write such a macro.
2015-12-21T18:21:33Z Zhivago: And, of course, there's the scope of top-level definitions. :)
2015-12-21T18:21:46Z Zhivago: Which is what schema is generalizing to other scopes.
2015-12-21T18:21:59Z pjb: loop does the same too, and this is a reason why it's so hard to understand complex loop forms, because the scopes inside are not clear.
2015-12-21T18:22:21Z pjb: Zhivago: apart from symbol macros, allt he toplevel definitions are dynamic, not lexical.
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2015-12-21T18:23:25Z beach: moore33: Is it OK with you if I replace the buffer of Goatee by my new Cluffer library, once it is done?
2015-12-21T18:23:39Z beach: moore33: I don't know that I will do it, but I thought I might ask first.
2015-12-21T18:23:53Z Zhivago: pjb: Scheme has them as lexical.
2015-12-21T18:24:01Z Jonsky: Ah ha I see why some people thing it's ugly now. Thanks for the example! I didn't notice this quirk of scheme before.
2015-12-21T18:24:47Z moore33: beach: Absolutely. I thought that goatee was kind of deprecated...
2015-12-21T18:25:03Z beach: It probably is, but the code is still in there.
2015-12-21T18:25:16Z moore33: Seeing as I don't really have a goatee anymore :)
2015-12-21T18:25:17Z beach: I was thinking of doing the same with Drei.
2015-12-21T18:25:23Z beach: Oh?
2015-12-21T18:25:23Z moore33: Good plan.
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2015-12-21T18:25:57Z moore33: beach: You may have seen my review of moustache waxes on FB in late October.
2015-12-21T18:25:57Z beach: It is an attempt to cut down on the amount of code to maintain.
2015-12-21T18:25:59Z pjb: warweasle: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Foreign-Type-Translators.html
2015-12-21T18:26:15Z moore33: Talk about off topic...
2015-12-21T18:26:20Z beach: moore33: I don't use facebook actually.
2015-12-21T18:26:43Z moore33: beach: I'm not surprised, but I thought your admittedly small family might have mentioned something  :)
2015-12-21T18:27:03Z beach: Yes, I am surprised she didn't.
2015-12-21T18:27:11Z pjb: warweasle: and :wrapper https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Other-Types.html#index-_003awrapper
2015-12-21T18:27:13Z moore33: Anyway.
2015-12-21T18:29:07Z rpg: Jonsky: [OT -- this isn't #scheme!] I think "internal" uses of define like that are deprecated as bad scheme style.
2015-12-21T18:29:35Z jasom: I'm working on a two-space incremental gc, and I have most of the problems worked out, but there doesn't seem to be any way round requiring eq to check that both pointers are in the same space before doing the pointer-comparison
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2015-12-21T18:29:42Z rpg: beach, moore33: does this mean that McCLIM is continuing?
2015-12-21T18:29:56Z beach: rpg: I am the official maintainer.
2015-12-21T18:30:00Z jasom: which would be cheap if not for the fact of pinning
2015-12-21T18:30:07Z beach: rpg: But I can't say I am working very hard right now.
2015-12-21T18:30:08Z Jonsky: rpg: I apologise for bringing up the S word. I didn't mean to start a war here...
2015-12-21T18:30:17Z beach: rpg: But I do have plans, yes.
2015-12-21T18:30:57Z moore33: rpg: In that line of things I'm thinking more about Clim3 or Climatis, which will be even less compatible with the Clim "standard" than McClim claimed to be.
2015-12-21T18:31:19Z rpg: beach: I miss McCLIM, but when I was trying to use it, I seemed to have a gift for finding the sketchy parts (graph layout, parsing commands with multiple arguments, etc.)
2015-12-21T18:31:43Z moore33: rpg: You hit all the high points :)
2015-12-21T18:31:57Z beach: rpg: Sorry to hear that.  I'll try to do something about a lot of the problems sometime in the future.
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2015-12-21T18:32:44Z rpg: It's no one's fault -- I just happened to be writing code in ways that didn't overlap a lot with what other people were doing.  I was working on MDPs and everyone else was working on emacs-style apps!
2015-12-21T18:32:49Z jasom: is climatis usable for simple editing of plain-text files currently?  Last time I tried it did not work for me (the X11 version crashed and the terminal application droppede every-other input character)
2015-12-21T18:33:17Z jasom: wait that was climcas
2015-12-21T18:33:45Z beach: There may be bugs in there, but I know people who use it.
2015-12-21T18:34:06Z beach: I have never heard of this particular problem and I don't see it myself.
2015-12-21T18:34:15Z rpg: I used to use the McCLIM-based IRC client pretty happily, but now that I'm on a Mac all the time....
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2015-12-21T18:36:29Z jasom: beach: I just tried it and it seems to work fine
2015-12-21T18:36:55Z beach: Thanks.
2015-12-21T18:37:13Z beach: You had me worried. :)
2015-12-21T18:37:19Z jasom: this would have been 6 or 7 years ago, so I'm not too surprised there are improvements
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2015-12-21T18:37:48Z beach: I see.
2015-12-21T18:38:43Z beach: jasom: I am about to extract the buffer code from Second Climacs.  Next, I will put a McCLIM interface on Second Climacs.
2015-12-21T18:39:05Z beach: ... but before that, I'll change Second Climacs to use the extracted buffer code.
2015-12-21T18:39:29Z jasom: beach: how do you keep so many projects going at once?
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2015-12-21T18:39:46Z beach: Not very well, actually.
2015-12-21T18:39:50Z Xach: he has admitted many times how small his family is
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2015-12-21T18:40:13Z beach: That helps, yes.
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2015-12-21T18:47:26Z beach: I am very pleased that I made the decision to "extract" the buffer code from Second Climacs to a separate library.  In the process, I discovered several sub-optimal design decisions, so that gave me the opportunity to generalize the design.  More work, of course, but the result is a great improvement.
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2015-12-21T18:54:14Z jasom: In general, doing any sort of port of code tends to improve it.
2015-12-21T18:55:18Z jasom: I recently ported an existing application to a new frontend framework in order to learn the framework, and I found two bugs that were not completely asymptomatic in the original code, but became much more common in the new framework
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2015-12-21T18:57:37Z beach: Yeah, I agree with your analysis.
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2015-12-21T19:04:38Z beach should find himself a Common Lisp apprentice. 
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2015-12-21T19:10:39Z phoe_krk: beach, I'm up for apprenticeship
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2015-12-21T19:10:53Z phoe_krk: what are the requirements?
2015-12-21T19:11:02Z beach: Seriously?
2015-12-21T19:11:07Z phoe_krk: Seriously.
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2015-12-21T19:11:51Z beach: I hadn't thought of that possibility, so I don't have a short answer.
2015-12-21T19:12:05Z beach: But we should definitely discuss it.
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2015-12-21T19:12:39Z beach: Let me start by reading the logs and see what you are interested in.
2015-12-21T19:13:00Z beach: This will take me a few days, especially since I am about to leave and go watch TV to relax.
2015-12-21T19:13:22Z phoe_krk: no problem
2015-12-21T19:13:40Z beach: Later, I suggest we PM to keep the discussion private, at least at first.
2015-12-21T19:13:47Z phoe_krk: Okay.
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2015-12-21T19:13:59Z beach: Great!  Deal!
2015-12-21T19:14:10Z phoe_krk: Deal!
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2015-12-21T19:15:11Z beach: phoe_krk: Will you be in Krakow?
2015-12-21T19:15:30Z phoe_krk: beach: yes, I will, and I plan on attending.
2015-12-21T19:15:32Z beach: ... For ELS, I mean.
2015-12-21T19:15:38Z beach: Excellent.
2015-12-21T19:15:39Z phoe_krk: (Because, come on, I live in Cracow.)
2015-12-21T19:15:41Z phoe_krk: (XD)
2015-12-21T19:16:02Z beach: I understood you must be close.
2015-12-21T19:16:41Z beach: Do you plan to submit a paper?
2015-12-21T19:18:10Z phoe_krk: A paper about what and to who?
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2015-12-21T19:19:02Z beach: To ELS.  About something you might be working on.  But I take that as a preliminary "no".
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2015-12-21T19:19:17Z Xach is sad to miss els this year
2015-12-21T19:19:26Z beach: Aww! :(
2015-12-21T19:19:39Z DeadTrickster: what is ELS???????????
2015-12-21T19:20:06Z jackdaniel: european lisp symposium
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2015-12-21T19:20:29Z Xach: a nice gathering
2015-12-21T19:20:42Z phoe_krk: Ohh. ELS...
2015-12-21T19:20:43Z phoe_krk: I, um.
2015-12-21T19:20:47Z DeadTrickster: ah geeky stuff
2015-12-21T19:20:53Z phoe_krk: All I have at the moment are pseudonyms.
2015-12-21T19:21:03Z phoe_krk: The things I am working on aren't mature enough to talk about, and probably won't.
2015-12-21T19:21:12Z jackdaniel: beach: congrats on yours new wizard position ;-)
2015-12-21T19:21:13Z phoe_krk: ...by ELS.
2015-12-21T19:21:32Z beach: jackdaniel: What?
2015-12-21T19:22:02Z synchromesh: jackdaniel: Don't you mean "sorcerer"?
2015-12-21T19:22:09Z beach: Ah, I see.
2015-12-21T19:22:21Z beach: phoe_krk: One possibility is to write a joint paper.
2015-12-21T19:22:30Z phoe_krk: What about and who with?
2015-12-21T19:22:30Z jackdaniel: (Apprenti Sorcier)
2015-12-21T19:22:37Z jackdaniel: synchromesh: yeah
2015-12-21T19:22:38Z beach: phoe_krk: With me.
2015-12-21T19:22:44Z phoe_krk: That's one question less.
2015-12-21T19:22:48Z phoe_krk: What is to be researched?
2015-12-21T19:22:57Z synchromesh: Can't believe I missed the job posting by ten minutes.
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2015-12-21T19:23:16Z beach: phoe_krk: One of the topics I am working on.  To be discussed.  I think I have 3 or 4 topics that can become papers for ELS.
2015-12-21T19:23:25Z phoe_krk: Deal.
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2015-12-21T19:24:40Z synchromesh: When I imagine ELS in Krakow I think of all the great sessions from Goldsmith's this year, but with vodka toasts every time someone says something particularly Lispy.
2015-12-21T19:25:03Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha
2015-12-21T19:25:24Z synchromesh: Everyone has a fantastic time but nobody can remember any of it once they return home.
2015-12-21T19:25:33Z beach: synchromesh: Which job posting?  Sorcerer or apprentice?
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2015-12-21T19:25:46Z phoe_krk: synchromesh: and #lisp loses about 60 people for a few days while they recover from their hang---- I mean headache?
2015-12-21T19:26:42Z synchromesh: beach: Oh, apprentice... I'm a long way from pointy hat status. But I don't really have time to be anyone's apprentice other than my own (he says trying to get ABCL + ASDF + Clack working on Google App Engine).
2015-12-21T19:27:04Z beach: I see, yes.
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2015-12-21T19:27:20Z beach: Anyway, time to go relax.
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2015-12-21T19:27:40Z synchromesh: phoe_krk: Yes, that sounds about right.
2015-12-21T19:28:35Z phoe_krk: synchromesh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q569DJAn0c&feature=youtu.be </offtopic>
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2015-12-21T19:32:16Z synchromesh: phoe_krk: I'll have to take your word for that. :)
2015-12-21T19:32:29Z phoe_krk: synchromesh: good.
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2015-12-21T19:50:10Z switchp0rt: is it possible to use a &body and &key in a macro definition? ie: (defmacro test-macro (val1 &key k v &body body) ...
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2015-12-21T19:51:17Z synchromesh: switchp0rt: People normally say (defmacro test-macro ((val1 &key (k v)) &body body) ...)
2015-12-21T19:51:51Z synchromesh: switchp0rt: which you can call as (test-macro (val1 :k v) ...)
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2015-12-21T19:54:03Z Bicyclidine: switchp0rt: &body is identical to &rest. you can use it and &key together, but the keys will be part of the body. so it's better to do something like synchromesh says, usually.
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2015-12-21T20:03:03Z phoe_krk: ...o_o
2015-12-21T20:03:27Z phoe_krk: you guys remember my complaining about emacs not displaying the same thing in *slime-repl* and *inferior-lisp*?
2015-12-21T20:03:50Z Bicyclidine: The 323 thing? Yes.
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2015-12-21T20:04:40Z phoe_krk: http://i.imgur.com/uiQeBUl.png
2015-12-21T20:05:18Z phoe_krk: ccl got it right without any questions.
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2015-12-21T20:06:35Z switchp0rt: synchromesh so if I were to have 1 req parameter and 2 non req with a body would the definition be like: (defmacro test-macro ((rval &optional &key oval1 oval2) &body body) ...
2015-12-21T20:06:42Z phoe_krk: so it seems to be a Lisp-implementation-dependent issue on Windows.
2015-12-21T20:07:12Z Bicyclidine: switchp0rt: well, it's your choice how to do it. but that &optional doesn't do anything.
2015-12-21T20:07:48Z Bicyclidine: switchp0rt: you could also have (defmacro test-macro (rval (&key ...) &body body) ...) and call it like (test-macro foo (:key value) body here)
2015-12-21T20:07:55Z synchromesh: switchp0rt: Peter Siebel's book has a nice discussion of this, e.g. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html
2015-12-21T20:08:22Z synchromesh: switchp0rt: Or indeed http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html
2015-12-21T20:08:23Z switchp0rt: synchromesh when I do this, i get unbound @ when trying to splice body
2015-12-21T20:08:29Z switchp0rt: i'll check out that link
2015-12-21T20:10:01Z switchp0rt: nvm, figured it out
2015-12-21T20:10:02Z switchp0rt: thanks
2015-12-21T20:10:12Z synchromesh: switchp0rt: NP
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2015-12-21T20:16:19Z phoe_krk: ...okay
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2015-12-21T20:18:44Z phoe_krk: ...
2015-12-21T20:19:13Z phoe_krk: when you're looking for a bug and you notice that, in ccl, you have to explicitly type "127.0.0.1" as hostname instead of "localhost" or you get an IPv6 socket instead of an IPv4 one.
2015-12-21T20:19:16Z phoe_krk slow claps
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2015-12-21T20:20:22Z synchromesh: phoe_krk: It's not a bug, it's a feature!
2015-12-21T20:20:31Z synchromesh: phoe_krk: (presumably)
2015-12-21T20:20:36Z phoe_krk: synchromesh: yes, it makes me rethink what's actually a localhost
2015-12-21T20:20:41Z phoe_krk: and that it's ambiguous
2015-12-21T20:20:50Z phoe_krk: much less ambiguous than 127.0.0.1 or ::1
2015-12-21T20:21:02Z phoe_krk: which also tell you the version of the IP protocol they're using
2015-12-21T20:21:10Z Bicyclidine: isn't that just part of your hosts file?
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2015-12-21T20:24:52Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: it's a part of my brain
2015-12-21T20:25:00Z phoe_krk: that hardwired localhost to 127.0.0.1
2015-12-21T20:25:04Z phoe_krk: while it could just as well mean ::1
2015-12-21T20:25:06Z phoe_krk: also
2015-12-21T20:25:15Z phoe_krk: that face of mine when I wrote something against SBCL
2015-12-21T20:25:18Z phoe_krk: I make one minor fix
2015-12-21T20:25:21Z phoe_krk: and it runs against CCL ;_;
2015-12-21T20:25:27Z phoe_krk: I want to write portably.
2015-12-21T20:25:41Z phoe_krk: It's so beautiful.
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2015-12-21T20:26:25Z phoe_krk: <3
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2015-12-21T20:34:52Z phoe_krk: pjb: now, I can actually work on strings. and about that part of the standard that tells me about no code-char returning NIL...
2015-12-21T20:35:07Z phoe_krk: (defun char-check () (dotimes (a char-code-limit) (when (null (code-char a)) (return a))))
2015-12-21T20:35:13Z phoe_krk: returns NIL on SBCL, ECL, CCL.
2015-12-21T20:35:15Z phoe_krk: good enough for me.
2015-12-21T20:35:36Z phoe_krk: I have all code-chars covered.
2015-12-21T20:35:44Z Bicyclidine: code-char can return nil. it says so right on the page.
2015-12-21T20:35:46Z Bicyclidine: clhs code-char
2015-12-21T20:35:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_code_c.htm
2015-12-21T20:36:05Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: but it doesn't.
2015-12-21T20:36:14Z phoe_krk: I just checked.
2015-12-21T20:36:33Z Bicyclidine: not up to code char limit, it doesn't, then
2015-12-21T20:36:50Z phoe_krk: and I find completely no point checking beyond that limit.
2015-12-21T20:36:51Z Bicyclidine: oh, which is how it's defined. well, whatevs.
2015-12-21T20:36:53Z phoe_krk: because, hell, it's the limit.
2015-12-21T20:37:16Z Bicyclidine: so those implementations decided not to let it return nil, is all.
2015-12-21T20:37:28Z phoe_krk: and I won't find characters above that limit until some interesting person begins thinking of utf64.
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2015-12-21T20:37:37Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: it's good enough for me.
2015-12-21T20:37:53Z phoe_krk: when I find the time, I'll install all Windows-capable implementations and do a bunch of checks on them just to check portability.
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2015-12-21T20:41:59Z phoe_krk: wait wait.
2015-12-21T20:42:15Z phoe_krk: char-code-limit. that's implementation-dependent, right?
2015-12-21T20:42:20Z Bicyclidine: yes.
2015-12-21T20:42:41Z phoe_krk: at least 96, but it's an upper bound on char-code values.
2015-12-21T20:42:45Z Bicyclidine: Though probably all the implementations you checked, and most you do check, would have one that's however many unicodepoints there are now.
2015-12-21T20:43:08Z phoe_krk: so, effectively, all values below are valid char-codes, because if one was invalid, the char-code-limit would have been lower.
2015-12-21T20:43:41Z phoe_krk: if there's a NIL returned below that, it would be contradictory to the definition of the constant.
2015-12-21T20:43:50Z phoe_krk: is there a fault in my reasoning?
2015-12-21T20:44:09Z Bicyclidine: You could hypothetically have an encoding with gaps, I think.
2015-12-21T20:44:59Z Bicyclidine: it does say "The value of char-code-limit might be larger than the actual number of characters supported by the implementation." which as far as i can tell means that either characters have multiple codes or some codes don't correspond to characters.
2015-12-21T20:45:08Z phoe_krk: hm. right.
2015-12-21T20:45:53Z phoe_krk: time to check what the implementations give me, and, if I'm lucky enough to have no NILs in between valid characters, set some sorta de facto standard.
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2015-12-21T20:46:11Z Bicyclidine: again, they are almost certainly all unicode
2015-12-21T20:46:19Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: I want to check.
2015-12-21T20:47:08Z phoe_krk: If I'm going against the standard, I'd better double-check my hinds before making any moves.
2015-12-21T20:47:21Z phoe_krk: Because the moment I do, I'll make a bridge for others to follow.
2015-12-21T20:47:30Z phoe_krk: And I don't want to make bridges that fall apart.
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2015-12-21T20:49:08Z Bicyclidine: what exactly are you doing? i thought babel had encoding in the bag anyway
2015-12-21T20:49:33Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: basically the newest post of http://phoe-krk.tumblr.com/
2015-12-21T20:49:56Z phoe_krk: I'm trying to represent vectors of code-chars from 32 to 255 as strings
2015-12-21T20:50:24Z phoe_krk: and I ran into troubles with SBCL/ECL on Windows as shown on the first two screenshots. The strings displayed in the REPL and the inferior-lisp window differed despite being printed from the same code.
2015-12-21T20:50:54Z phoe_krk: Using CCL here solved the problem.
2015-12-21T20:51:38Z phoe_krk: pjb told me that: "phoe_krk: notice how the standard doesn't impose that there's a char for every `(integer 0 ,(1- char-code-limit)).  So (code-char #x88) could return NIL.  On the other hand, (princ #\UF0088) #| 󰂈 --> #\U+F0088 |#  may be not better than (princ (code-char #x88)) #| ˆ --> #\U+0088 |#"
2015-12-21T20:52:14Z phoe_krk: so I checked; while the standard doesn't impose that, the three implementations I've tested so far provide a char for every char-code.
2015-12-21T20:52:32Z phoe_krk: code-char, I mean.
2015-12-21T20:52:37Z phoe_krk: up to code-char-limit.
2015-12-21T20:53:44Z phoe_krk: (If anyone here runs on an implementation different than SBCL, ECL or CCL, please tell me what https://github.com/phoe-krk/lisp-portability/blob/master/char-check.lisp returns for you!)
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2015-12-21T20:58:05Z synchromesh: phoe_krk: It returns NIL on ABCL, but that shouldn't surprise anybody.
2015-12-21T20:58:29Z phoe_krk: synchromesh: and what is char-code-limit on ABCL?
2015-12-21T20:58:31Z phoe_krk: also, thanks synchromesh!
2015-12-21T20:58:59Z synchromesh: Well, running on the JVM it's Unicode all the way, so the limit is 65536.
2015-12-21T20:59:33Z n_blownapart: hi could anyone tell me how to get drracket to normal-order mode if it is even possible? (I'm learning scheme..noob)
2015-12-21T21:00:04Z n_blownapart: or does one do that by altering the code?
2015-12-21T21:00:11Z phoe_krk: synchromesh: got it. what's your JVM and ABCL version, too?
2015-12-21T21:00:28Z blub: n_blownapart: this channel is for common lisp
2015-12-21T21:00:29Z synchromesh: n_blownapart: You'll want to ask that on #scheme, this is #lisp and we don't do Scheme 'round these parts.
2015-12-21T21:01:19Z n_blownapart: I was mistaken, what I meant was that I'm learning a lisp like language
2015-12-21T21:01:33Z n_blownapart: :)
2015-12-21T21:01:38Z Bicyclidine: Right, but none of us know drracket very well.
2015-12-21T21:01:44Z Bicyclidine: Even if we did, talking about it would be off topic here.
2015-12-21T21:01:53Z synchromesh: I'm running the latest ABCL trunk (labelled "1.4.0-dev-svn-14845M") on Java 1.7.
2015-12-21T21:02:03Z n_blownapart: Bicyclidine: ok. thanks for the help yesterday.
2015-12-21T21:02:49Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: what does representing a vector as a string mean? Do you have your own print function?
2015-12-21T21:03:21Z prxq: phoe_krk: I run on wetware. haven't found a way to port myself to a lisp. So I don't run on any of these lisps.
2015-12-21T21:03:45Z phoe_krk: prxq: please let me know what my char-check returns on your Lisp implementation
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2015-12-21T21:04:08Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: no, I use all the built-in functions for operating on vectors and strings and use a simple print to peek on what's going on in the protocol.
2015-12-21T21:04:16Z phoe_krk: basically, I treat everything as strings.
2015-12-21T21:04:38Z phoe_krk: and I had that problem of two different string representations of the same code-chars on SBCL and ECL, as shown above.
2015-12-21T21:07:01Z Bicyclidine: Can I see your code anywhere?
2015-12-21T21:07:55Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: yes, as soon as I find myself un-lazy enough to send a working version; give me a quarter
2015-12-21T21:08:39Z Bicyclidine: I'm just not sure I understand how you're interacting with strings.
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2015-12-21T21:09:21Z phoe_krk: I'll give it to you in a moment.
2015-12-21T21:12:22Z pjb: phoe_krk: ccl doesn't provide a character for every code.
2015-12-21T21:12:50Z phoe_krk: !
2015-12-21T21:13:50Z pjb: 2050 codes over 1114112 have a (code-char code) -> nil.
2015-12-21T21:14:31Z Bicyclidine: 1114112 being char-code-limit?
2015-12-21T21:14:40Z phoe_krk: Under?
2015-12-21T21:14:43Z phoe_krk: Or over?
2015-12-21T21:14:48Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: yes.
2015-12-21T21:15:08Z Bicyclidine: because code-char is only defined on codes. i think calling it with a greater number could conceivably throw an error or something isntead.
2015-12-21T21:15:18Z phoe_krk: I assume under.
2015-12-21T21:16:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: Is it fine to just make my system depend on a testing system or would I want to seperate it somehow?
2015-12-21T21:16:07Z phoe_krk: also, pjb, I get 2048 and not 2050.
2015-12-21T21:16:13Z pjb: 2050/1114112 is already some proportion, more than 1‱.
2015-12-21T21:16:37Z Bicyclidine: Petit_Dejeuner: people have a separate asd for tests, somtimes.
2015-12-21T21:16:45Z pjb: on ccl Version 1.10-r16196  (LinuxX8664) using: (loop for i below char-code-limit unless (code-char i) sum 1)
2015-12-21T21:16:48Z synchromesh: pjb: There's a code point you don't see very often...
2015-12-21T21:17:07Z phoe_krk: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/262679 returns 2048 for me.
2015-12-21T21:17:15Z phoe_krk: WinX8664.
2015-12-21T21:17:44Z Bicyclidine: i thought you said you got zero before.
2015-12-21T21:17:52Z pjb: You must have ccl 1.11.
2015-12-21T21:18:05Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: oh, yes ccl 1.11.
2015-12-21T21:18:21Z Bicyclidine: 55296 has no character. gosh.
2015-12-21T21:18:40Z pjb: phoe_krk: anyways, the point of conformity is that your program can work on different implementations, existing now, or existing in the future.
2015-12-21T21:18:58Z Bicyclidine: oh. d800. i think that's a system-defined one
2015-12-21T21:19:26Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: I said so, and was mistaken. I ran a wrong executable.
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2015-12-21T21:20:06Z phoe_krk: Basically, D800-DFFF is out for CCL 1.11.
2015-12-21T21:20:08Z Bicyclidine: oh. yep. these code points don't correspond to characters.
2015-12-21T21:20:24Z Bicyclidine: well, there you go, noncontiguous.
2015-12-21T21:20:27Z pjb: They are the 2048 surrogates; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Character_Set_characters#Surrogates
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2015-12-21T21:21:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bicyclidine: But there's not much of a convention?
2015-12-21T21:21:52Z Bicyclidine: Petit_Dejeuner: well a separate testing system is common. i don't know if it's "conventional".
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2015-12-21T21:23:30Z phoe_krk: pjb: still good enough for me the moment I don't go above 256. but, right, that's a major counterexample.
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2015-12-21T21:24:33Z pjb: switchp0rt: it would be possible to use both &key and &body at the same level in a lambda list, but this would imply that your body would have to be of even length with keywords and expressions alternatively…
2015-12-21T21:24:58Z pjb: &body is like &rest.  You'd write actually &body (or &rest) BEFORE &key.
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2015-12-21T21:26:15Z pjb: switchp0rt: you should not use &optional.  You definitely should not use &optional with &key.
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2015-12-21T21:26:52Z phoe_krk: I think that SBCL even warns you when you do that.
2015-12-21T21:26:54Z pjb: switchp0rt: and furthermore, you should not use &optional &key which is a useless &optional.
2015-12-21T21:28:01Z synchromesh: pjb: Are you saying &optional is wrong in general (like &aux, IIUC)?
2015-12-21T21:28:08Z pjb: yes.
2015-12-21T21:28:34Z pjb: synchromesh: in any case, &optional should be mutually exclusive with &key (and probably with &rest too).
2015-12-21T21:28:58Z pjb: In CL, there are only two functions that use both &optional and &key, and people always use them wrong.
2015-12-21T21:28:59Z synchromesh: pjb: Oh. Wrong as in "yes standard functions used it, but since then we've all agreed it's bad style" sort of thing?
2015-12-21T21:29:42Z synchromesh: pjb: I agree that mixing &optional and &key is asking for trouble, but I thought &optional by itself was OK.
2015-12-21T21:30:22Z Bicyclidine: optional by itself isn't great.
2015-12-21T21:30:30Z Bicyclidine: in any case it's completely useless in this particular case
2015-12-21T21:30:33Z pjb: Now, if you consider a function with only &optional, I'd advise you to consider using &key instead, since often you will be happy to have the redundance and the possibility with &key of giving only the last parameters without having to give all the previous optional parameters.  Also, &key let you make changes (add/remove) parameters more easily.
2015-12-21T21:31:51Z synchromesh: I must admit, I tend to use &optional for things that I'll never want to supply at runtime, I just don't want them "hard-coded" into the definition.
2015-12-21T21:32:13Z synchromesh: Or at least, they'll be hard-coded where you can easily see them.
2015-12-21T21:32:47Z synchromesh: Kind of like &aux... :)
2015-12-21T21:32:54Z Bicyclidine: what are the standard functions that use both &optional and &key, by the way
2015-12-21T21:32:56Z pjb: You can get the same with &key, with advantages.
2015-12-21T21:33:58Z synchromesh: pjb: But I use &key to mean "you'll be wanting to use these at the call site". I agree it definitely has advantages.
2015-12-21T21:34:02Z pjb: Hey! This is one of the best CL quiz questions. I don't remember :-(
2015-12-21T21:34:11Z Bicyclidine: maybe one of the printing ones...
2015-12-21T21:34:24Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: https://github.com/phoe-krk/lispfurcproxy/tree/master
2015-12-21T21:34:36Z synchromesh: Where's a programmatic interface to the HyperSpec when you want one...
2015-12-21T21:34:37Z pjb: synchromesh: not necessarily; for example, you know that LOAD and COMPILE-FILE have &key arguments, you probably never used them.
2015-12-21T21:35:02Z synchromesh: pjb: Well, I almost never use LOAD or COMPILE-FILE, so...
2015-12-21T21:35:10Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: also take a look at what the protocol looks like, http://pastebin.com/0BzDAcMR <- that's copied from the *inferior-lisp* of the running (main).
2015-12-21T21:35:29Z pjb: read-from-string and parse-namestring.
2015-12-21T21:35:52Z Bicyclidine: oh, so they do. how strange.
2015-12-21T21:35:53Z phoe_krk: the "(SERVER >>(())) " are my addition, the rest are just mostly WINDOWS-1250 bytes.
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2015-12-21T21:36:05Z pjb: oh, also macros: with-output-to-string, and two more fucntions: write-string write-line
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2015-12-21T21:36:13Z synchromesh: Wow, I literally used read-from-string a few minutes ago and totally didn't notice. :)
2015-12-21T21:37:03Z pjb: so that's 4 functions and 1 macro…
2015-12-21T21:37:30Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: this does not seem to use code-char
2015-12-21T21:37:39Z pjb: The thing is that you will use the keyword arguments, and wonder why it doesn't work (because the keyword arguments are taken as optionals!).
2015-12-21T21:37:54Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: ping
2015-12-21T21:38:06Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: this totally doesn't. but it uses print on things that aren't chars by themselves, like ASCII control codes.
2015-12-21T21:38:17Z phoe_krk: as pjb said before.
2015-12-21T21:40:14Z phoe_krk: so according to the standard (code-char #x80) could return nil.
2015-12-21T21:40:22Z pjb: Yep.
2015-12-21T21:40:25Z phoe_krk: Which would ruin the printing function.
2015-12-21T21:40:32Z phoe_krk: And throw errors.
2015-12-21T21:41:16Z attila_lendvai: anyone here with cffi struct-by-value knowledge? should something like this work (with-foreign-object (x '(:struct foo)) (some-c-fun-with-sbv-arg x))?
2015-12-21T21:41:43Z pjb: I would expect it to work, but I'm not too experimented with cffi.
2015-12-21T21:42:17Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: hi
2015-12-21T21:42:44Z phoe_krk: And while I know it would be fully compliant to the standard here, I really don't feel like writing a whole new type, reader and writer just to handle code-chars up to 255.
2015-12-21T21:42:53Z attila_lendvai: hi LiamH! I'm stuck with a very simple fsbv situation, see above
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2015-12-21T21:43:18Z attila_lendvai: I gen an error of no applicable method found for CFFI:TRANSLATE-INTO-FOREIGN-MEMORY
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2015-12-21T21:43:34Z LiamH: paste your whole set of definitions
2015-12-21T21:43:43Z attila_lendvai does so
2015-12-21T21:44:11Z jasom: phoe_krk: I think assuming code-char being defined through 255 is fine; maybe with a note in a comment or a docstring to that effect
2015-12-21T21:44:38Z phoe_krk: jasom: I think the same, it's just that standard gives me only 96 well-defined codes.
2015-12-21T21:44:40Z jasom: Very few lisps with 8-bit bytes haven't had that
2015-12-21T21:44:47Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: http://paste.lisp.org/+5N0M
2015-12-21T21:45:34Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: the issue is with bdaddr_t
2015-12-21T21:45:39Z jasom: and I don't think 6-bit chars would work with common lisp, since that only gives you 64 possibilities
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2015-12-21T21:46:52Z Bicyclidine: yeah. i think that's an okay assumption to make, practically speaking.
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2015-12-21T21:47:13Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: I'm wondering if it has something to do with the defctype. I seem to recall issues with that.
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2015-12-21T21:47:45Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: hrm, let me try to redefine the defcfun skipping the defctype
2015-12-21T21:47:47Z LiamH: Can you try substituting bdaddr_t -> (:struct anon-struct-2) and see what happens?
2015-12-21T21:47:53Z LiamH: yeah
2015-12-21T21:48:15Z LiamH: And if that's the problem, I'll pass the buck to luis.
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2015-12-21T21:49:20Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: didn't change anything I noticed
2015-12-21T21:49:44Z attila_lendvai: looked at the tests but they all seem to play with translators
2015-12-21T21:49:56Z attila_lendvai: s/with/using/
2015-12-21T21:50:11Z LiamH: Oh I see.
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2015-12-21T21:50:45Z LiamH: Does uint8_t have a translator?
2015-12-21T21:51:19Z LiamH: I mean, what is it? Not a uint8 I guess, it's something defined by your system.
2015-12-21T21:51:52Z attila_lendvai: tests don't even load for me
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2015-12-21T21:52:20Z attila_lendvai: uint8_t is typedefed as an :unsigned-char
2015-12-21T21:53:07Z LiamH: The default translator makes a plist of the struct, so that should work.
2015-12-21T21:54:19Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: I may be off here, but is there a way not to have any translation be involved? it's a byte array allocated with w-f-o and an ffI see allinside it
2015-12-21T21:54:38Z pjb: phoe_krk: one thing that CL guarantees (indirectly, but still), is that the same encoding (mapping code-char/char-code) is used at compilation time and at run-time.
2015-12-21T21:54:53Z phoe_krk: pjb: yay! Thanks for the tip.
2015-12-21T21:54:59Z pjb: phoe_krk: therefore you can perform a compilation-time check of the properties of this encoding, and then on assume it.
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2015-12-21T21:55:45Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: I did think of that case and how to make it work, but I don't think I implemented anything.
2015-12-21T21:56:26Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: can you give me a short bird's eye view of what should work for that? maybe I can do that...
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2015-12-21T21:56:43Z attila_lendvai: or if you have time a long one, or maybe even a commit if you have even more... :)
2015-12-21T21:57:15Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: Right now, sorry. It's been a while and i'll have to dig through my notes.
2015-12-21T21:57:32Z attila_lendvai: nm, I'll record a failing test then
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2015-12-21T21:57:47Z LiamH: Also it was early in the porting of FSBV to CFFI, so any thoughts I had on it are probably obsolete.
2015-12-21T21:58:01Z attila_lendvai: but first, why doesn't the alloc_pair_plus_one defcfun compile without a big fat warning
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2015-12-21T22:02:40Z attila_lendvai: that's why I like the new asdf feature to stop at full warnings... it caught a long-standing bug in the return value handling (missing quote before the type making it completely broken)
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2015-12-21T22:10:52Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: when was the last time you ran the cffi tests? did the fsbv tests work? I'm wondering if I broke something because none of them seems to work for me here
2015-12-21T22:10:56Z phoe_krk: I have a list of n things, and a list of n functions. What is the lispy way of applying these n functions to the list of n things and getting a list of n new things?
2015-12-21T22:12:05Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: A few days ago, I added a new test fsbv.8 in 215ea91b1e01
2015-12-21T22:12:42Z LiamH: I think there were some warnings, but they all passed.
2015-12-21T22:13:10Z attila_lendvai: hrm, then I will need to start looking at HEAD... even "makepair" barks at me: The value NIL is not of type SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER.
2015-12-21T22:13:14Z moore33: phoe_krk: (mapcar #'funcall fn-list thing-list)
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2015-12-21T22:13:54Z phoe_krk: moore33: thanks! Just what I needed.
2015-12-21T22:14:14Z moore33: phoe_krk: Enjoy :)
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2015-12-21T22:15:46Z synchromesh: moore33: Now I can't help wondering what the Sch*me equivalent is. :)
2015-12-21T22:16:18Z moore33: synchomesh: Pretty much the same, except mapcar is spelled map, I think?
2015-12-21T22:16:38Z Mini_Evo: Hi guys, how would I go about converting an array of characters to a list of characters in common lisp?
2015-12-21T22:16:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: Mini_Evo: #'coerce
2015-12-21T22:16:57Z jasom: Mini_Evo: coerce might do it,
2015-12-21T22:17:01Z moore33: But I haven't written any scheme since 1986 or so.
2015-12-21T22:17:04Z jasom: clhs coerce
2015-12-21T22:17:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm
2015-12-21T22:17:45Z Bicyclidine: scheme doesn't have funcall, so you'd use (lambda (a b) (a b)) instead, or something.
2015-12-21T22:17:48Z jasom: Mini_Evo: be aware that this will only work if it's a vector of characters, not a multidimensional array of characters
2015-12-21T22:18:12Z Mini_Evo: I'll give it a shot, cheers guys
2015-12-21T22:18:35Z synchromesh: Bicyclidine: That's what I was wondering... Not that I plan on writing any serious Scheme if I can help it.
2015-12-21T22:18:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: Mini_Evo: Depending on what you're doing, you may not want coerce. For instance, (coerce (mapcar ...) 'list) can be replaced with a call to map.
2015-12-21T22:19:00Z synchromesh: I started my kids on The Little Schemer but I think I'm going to switch to trying to teach them Haskell instead.
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2015-12-21T22:19:25Z prxq: kids and haskell. sounds like a plan.
2015-12-21T22:19:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: Sounds difficult.
2015-12-21T22:19:29Z Bicyclidine: i mean, you can definitely write funcall in scheme. (lambda x (apply (car x) (cdr x))) i think would be the syntax.
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2015-12-21T22:21:04Z synchromesh: On the basis that I'd rather learn Haskell than Scheme. :)
2015-12-21T22:21:33Z moore33: synchromesh: I think your kids would prefer JavaScript to any language we might like in #lisp.
2015-12-21T22:21:39Z Fare: base-char has to contain the 96 characters in standard-char, so needs be at least 7-bit (assuming it's has a whole number of bits)
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2015-12-21T22:22:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: If I had kids who prefered JavaScript, I'd replace them.
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2015-12-21T22:22:30Z jasom: Fare: right; I don't suppose any 36-bit word machines used 5 7-bit chars per word?
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2015-12-21T22:22:43Z moore33: Petit_Dejeuner: Well, you could send 'em over.
2015-12-21T22:22:51Z Fare: not that I know.
2015-12-21T22:22:52Z synchromesh: moore33: It's not about what they'd prefer...
2015-12-21T22:23:20Z Fare: But I can imagine a 64-bit word machine using 9 7-bit chars per word.
2015-12-21T22:23:25Z moore33: synchromesh: It is if they will hate you forever :)
2015-12-21T22:23:34Z jasom is just imagining a shotgun rack at Petit_Dejeuner's house labled "For kids who prefer javascript"
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2015-12-21T22:24:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: "break in case of affinity for js"
2015-12-21T22:24:15Z Fare: also, there could be say a 6-bit base-base-char excluding lower-case letters and a few symbols from standard-char
2015-12-21T22:24:16Z synchromesh: moore33: It's about what's good for them, not what will make them like me. What sort of parent do you think I am?
2015-12-21T22:24:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: An urn labelled "problem children"
2015-12-21T22:24:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: I think Haskell is too hard, but I might be projecting. SmallTalk or Scheme sounds a lot easier.
2015-12-21T22:24:56Z synchromesh: moore33: Besides, JavaScript programmers are no good to me.
2015-12-21T22:25:01Z Fare: too hard for what?
2015-12-21T22:25:03Z Bicyclidine: what about 4-trit words
2015-12-21T22:25:10Z prxq: frankly, javascript is a pretty decent language for learning programming. it wins hands down over gw-basic (my path) and has the browser and html as playground right there.
2015-12-21T22:25:27Z Fare: Bicyclidine, sounds great, on a ternary machine
2015-12-21T22:25:29Z moore33: synchromesh: Dunno, but I'm the sort of parent who doesn't think that Scheme or Haskell is particularly good for kids.
2015-12-21T22:25:59Z moore33: ... and, that JavaScript is a pretty deep, interesting  language.
2015-12-21T22:26:05Z synchromesh: prxq: But that's what ParenScript is for. So we don't haev to use JavaScript.
2015-12-21T22:26:17Z prxq: that's bullshit, sorry.
2015-12-21T22:26:26Z Fare: or 3 21-bit chars per word
2015-12-21T22:26:27Z Bicyclidine: or 3-sit words, for a septenary machine
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2015-12-21T22:26:42Z synchromesh: prxq: Well, I wasn't being entirely serious...
2015-12-21T22:26:53Z prxq: kay then =)
2015-12-21T22:27:01Z Petit_Dejeuner: moore33: At this point Racket can replace Python or Ruby for tiny scripts. Guile is probably the same way.
2015-12-21T22:28:14Z Fare: Petit_Dejeuner, I'm using CL as my main scripting language
2015-12-21T22:28:33Z moore33: Petit_Dejeuner: If you say so. I don't write code in any of those languages, except for a tiny bit of Python for Blender.
2015-12-21T22:28:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: Fare: Do you just keep a REPL open 24/7?
2015-12-21T22:28:45Z Fare: I've written one script in Racket.
2015-12-21T22:28:54Z Fare: Petit_Dejeuner, a SLIME REPL, yes
2015-12-21T22:29:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: moore33: You can think of Python and Ruby as replacements for Perl and shell script.
2015-12-21T22:29:17Z jasom would think that most in this channel would have a REPL open whenever their computer is running
2015-12-21T22:29:33Z Fare: otherwise, I have a mother-of-all-script binary that I can invoke from my zsh REPL.
2015-12-21T22:29:35Z Petit_Dejeuner: I always have a bash repl running.
2015-12-21T22:29:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: ;)
2015-12-21T22:29:53Z jasom: bash is just a rel
2015-12-21T22:29:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: Hm, are there any common lisp shells?
2015-12-21T22:30:00Z moore33: Petit_Dejeuner: I kind of liked Perl's surrealism :)
2015-12-21T22:30:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: moore33: I like it too. If only because nobody seems to have learned anything from it.
2015-12-21T22:30:31Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: someone wrote a page on how to get clisp to work as a login shell; I wrote a clone of sh in lisp; which were you thinking more like?
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2015-12-21T22:31:09Z jasom: s/wrote/am writing/ (job control is still incomplete)
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2015-12-21T22:32:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: jasom: Probably the first.
2015-12-21T22:32:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: Where's my lisp OS with non-heirchial database, REPL shell, and name spaces to enforce permissions?
2015-12-21T22:32:46Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: http://www.clisp.org/clash.html
2015-12-21T22:32:59Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: you just need to write it :)
2015-12-21T22:33:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks.
2015-12-21T22:33:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: ...soon.
2015-12-21T22:33:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: I need to mess around with mezzano more.
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2015-12-21T22:37:59Z Fare: Petit_Dejeuner, SLIME
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2015-12-21T22:38:36Z Fare: Petit_Dejeuner, did you read by blog ngnghm.github.com ?
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2015-12-21T22:47:00Z jasom: Fare: you mean https://ngnghm.github.io/
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2015-12-21T22:57:43Z Fare: oh, nice, it accepts https
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2015-12-21T22:58:22Z Fare: are the computer-modern fonts working for you?
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2015-12-21T23:00:26Z jasom: yup
2015-12-21T23:00:35Z jasom: it's slightly smaller than I prefer for screen reading
2015-12-21T23:01:11Z jasom: and there's something up with either the anti-aliasing or hinting
2015-12-21T23:01:44Z jasom: e.g. all vertical lines seem to be always a multiple of a pixel wide
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2015-12-21T23:03:27Z Fare: is that bad?
2015-12-21T23:03:39Z Fare: Ctrl-+ should make it bigger
2015-12-21T23:04:16Z jasom: Fare: well the r is slightly thinner than the l, but on my screen that means it is half as thick
2015-12-21T23:04:26Z jasom: since one is 2 pixels and the other 1 pixel
2015-12-21T23:04:30Z jasom: very distracting
2015-12-21T23:04:49Z jasom: until about ~200% it looks quite ugly; perhaps on a screen over 75dpi it would look good
2015-12-21T23:04:59Z Fare: :-/
2015-12-21T23:05:14Z Fare: I'm not sure how to edit the CSS to make everything consistently bigger
2015-12-21T23:05:45Z jasom: I think 200% is too big in general, but the font looks bad on "My Machine" at anything smaller
2015-12-21T23:06:58Z jasom: Fare: http://i.imgur.com/W0DGFLv.png <-- example at 100%
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2015-12-21T23:07:58Z jasom: http://i.imgur.com/leUNoQX.png <-- 133%
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2015-12-21T23:10:06Z jsgrant: Petit_Dejeuner: I've echoed that same sentiment (I think possibly even in here as well). It looks like it has so much potiental, as at the very least a nice 'hobbized environment'.
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2015-12-21T23:11:42Z jsgrant: I"m not sure if it's just been relatively stagnant since froggey_ uploaded the prerelease, or if he's been sitting on some stuff to push, but I'm excited to see how it progresses over the next couple years.
2015-12-21T23:12:21Z jsgrant: I plan on setting up a personal vm for it before the end of the year, and mess about with it a bit. :^)
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2015-12-21T23:21:13Z jasom: Fare: globally disabling hinting worked for me
2015-12-21T23:21:31Z jasom: I'll at some point figure out how to tell fontconfig to not hint computer-modern
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2015-12-21T23:28:24Z Fare: how is the default size now?
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2015-12-21T23:34:34Z jasom: huge
2015-12-21T23:34:39Z jasom: about 2x what it was before
2015-12-21T23:35:08Z Fare: yes
2015-12-21T23:35:20Z Fare: and too big on a mobile
2015-12-21T23:35:29Z jasom: as I said, 2x was too big, but the first time it didn't look bad due to hinting
2015-12-21T23:35:42Z jasom: 1.3x is closer to the size I want
2015-12-21T23:36:09Z jasom: and yes, getting it to look decent on mobile and desktop is hard to do with just css
2015-12-21T23:36:24Z jasom: you can use some css selectors to guess if they are mobile or not, but that's not great
2015-12-21T23:39:20Z Fare: what about now?
2015-12-21T23:39:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: Fare: I've read the first four or five hyouman articles.
2015-12-21T23:39:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: jsgrant: I've just been trying to put some effort into reading the source code.
2015-12-21T23:39:43Z jasom: Fare: decent
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2015-12-21T23:42:13Z Fare: and now?
2015-12-21T23:43:11Z Fare: ok, back to writing chapter 7
2015-12-21T23:44:52Z jasom: Fare: whoa, just reloaded and it's big again
2015-12-21T23:46:20Z jasom: I may just blacklist  computer modern; it looks really ugly as a screen font
2015-12-21T23:46:51Z jasom: I'm sure it looks nice on high-dpi displays though, as I like it in print
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2015-12-21T23:50:22Z Fare: :-(
2015-12-21T23:51:13Z Fare: what bowser are you using?
2015-12-21T23:57:28Z jasom: Firefox on linux
2015-12-21T23:58:31Z jsgrant: Petit_Dejeuner: I'm about to head out to dinner, will be back in less than an hour; But yeah, if you want to contribute some documentation I know there is a loose push in that direction.
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2015-12-21T23:59:07Z jsgrant: Kay, afk. BBL. o/