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2015-12-17T02:22:46Z gendl: Hi, does SBCL have something like CCL's ccl:*loading-file-source-file*
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2015-12-17T02:23:27Z gendl: *compile-file-pathname* doesn't quite do it, because it only seems to be bound during (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...)
2015-12-17T02:24:15Z gendl: cc:*loading-file-source-file* and Allegro's excl:*source-pathname* will be bound to the original source file path during load of the fasl as well.
2015-12-17T02:24:24Z gendl: ccl:*loading-file-source-file*  *
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2015-12-17T02:29:30Z nyef: gendl: How about #.*compile-file-pathname* ?
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2015-12-17T02:30:06Z gendl: Apparently (at least circa 2004) nothing like this existed for SBCL, and the recommended approach was to navigate to the source file via an ASDF system definition or similar. That's all well and good until trying to load from a monolithic compile-bundle. Well, I suppose a parameter can be set at compile-file time, which would end up in the monolithic
2015-12-17T02:30:06Z gendl: compile-bundle. Anyway, when loading from a monolithic compile-bundle, any notion of the original source file becomes less meaningful and less likely useful anyway, so one should probably question any code which is looking for it at that point...
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2015-12-17T02:32:25Z gendl: nyef:  I'll try that trick, thanks.
2015-12-17T02:32:55Z nyef: Of course, it won't work if you just LOAD the source file, it can only work if you COMPILE-FILE it.
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2015-12-17T02:34:57Z gendl: right. That's the magic of things like excl:*source-pathname* and ccl:*loading-file-source-file*. The original source pathname will end up in the fasl.
2015-12-17T02:35:59Z gendl: but it should be possible to do something like (defparameter *source-pathname*  #.*compile-file-pathname* )  and have *source-pathname* end up bound to the right thing in the fasl.
2015-12-17T02:36:45Z nyef: ... Ah, and you can use EVAL-WHEN tricks to pick the right thing if you're doing things like LOADing the file directly instead of compiling it.
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2015-12-17T02:44:59Z gendl: I just did this horrid kludge:
2015-12-17T02:45:17Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/C3zJV1ER/
2015-12-17T02:45:42Z gendl: doesn't work.
2015-12-17T02:45:46Z gendl: returns NIL.
2015-12-17T02:46:03Z gendl: when loading the fasl where it's used.
2015-12-17T02:46:44Z gendl: i'm trying to make this as a portable macro or function (source-pathname) which I can just place anywhere.
2015-12-17T02:48:18Z gendl: but I don't know how to have #.  get preserved across the macroexpansion. I think it will cause the read-eval to happen at macroexpansion time, not get carried into the actual macroexpanded code.
2015-12-17T02:48:44Z gendl: and (eval ..) isn't the same thing
2015-12-17T02:49:12Z gendl: so now i'm confusing myself further as well as exposing myself as an idiot...
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2015-12-17T02:55:57Z nyef: Maybe (defmacro source-pathname () *compile-file-pathname*) ?
2015-12-17T02:56:40Z nyef: ... And that defparameter form looks wrong. Compare it to what the spec requires?
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2015-12-17T03:17:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-12-17T03:22:13Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-12-17T03:27:07Z Oladon: Evening, beach
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2015-12-17T03:44:48Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-12-17T03:45:34Z blub: hi beach
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2015-12-17T03:53:40Z beach: nyef: The talk about the birth and death of Javascript suggests that the kind of LispOS I have in mind will be very fast compared to existing OSes, given the figures on the overhead of system calls etc.
2015-12-17T03:54:18Z Zhivago: The overhead of system calls on modern systems is pretty low.
2015-12-17T03:54:28Z Zhivago: Which architecture do they have in mind?
2015-12-17T03:54:53Z beach: I think they were talking x86 and Linux.  This was in 2014.
2015-12-17T03:55:08Z beach: But maybe the figure he cited is from further back.
2015-12-17T03:55:21Z gendl: nyef: yes. sorry, shouldn't have wasted anyone's time posting that pastebin. Full of typos.
2015-12-17T03:55:33Z Zhivago: Well, linux x86 syscall overhead is bugger all, last I looked, at least on systems where the kernel and program are in the same address space.
2015-12-17T03:55:58Z Zhivago: Then it just requires a call gate which flips some segment selector or something approximating that.
2015-12-17T03:56:38Z gendl: nyef: I'm ending up sidestepping the issue and following advice from 2004 - use asdf system to navigate to source. If we're at the point of monolithic compile-bundles, then all bets are off wrt location of source code anyway, and resources need to be located in another way anyway.
2015-12-17T03:57:19Z nyef: gendl: Okay. Good luck, and have fun.
2015-12-17T03:57:34Z beach: Zhivago: Maybe he had in mind a system that has to change the address mapping.  Perhaps the problem he cited went away with 64-bit processors.
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2015-12-17T03:59:57Z Zhivago: It's possible, although this solution was also used with 32 bit systems -- 1 gig for kernel and 3 gigs for program.
2015-12-17T04:00:37Z nyef: Traditionally 2 and 2, FWIW.
2015-12-17T04:00:39Z Zhivago: Have you looked at unikernels?
2015-12-17T04:00:41Z beach: I see.  They guy seemed to know what he was talking about, so I would have thought he would have known about that.
2015-12-17T04:01:08Z Zhivago: With that, the kernel is used as a library and compiled into the program, giving a system that runs one program.
2015-12-17T04:01:37Z Zhivago: The main benefit there seems to be for use with containers.
2015-12-17T04:02:17Z beach: Zhivago: Are you asking me?  No I haven't looked at unikernels.
2015-12-17T04:02:54Z Zhivago: Yeah. You might want to have a look at unikernels, since that would probably be the nearest match to what you'd expect.
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2015-12-17T04:04:22Z nyef: Another entry into the "odd kernel architecture" sweepstakes is the "exokernel", which I definitely remember looking into at one point, but essentially all of the details of which have since escaped me.
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2015-12-17T04:11:56Z beach: So what would be a rough estimate on the number of processor cycles that the overhead of a system call represents?
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2015-12-17T04:17:41Z Zhivago: It depends on the mechanism used -- it seems that callgates are being replaced by a syscall/sysenter instruction.
2015-12-17T04:18:10Z beach: Yeah, I need to read up on what those instructions do.
2015-12-17T04:21:39Z Zhivago: Anyhow, as far as I know, the overhead of a syscall these days is negligible.
2015-12-17T04:21:58Z Zhivago: Any significant impact is likely to come from any requirement to copy data out of the process.
2015-12-17T04:22:12Z Zhivago: Which may be an issue for syscall api design choices.
2015-12-17T04:22:13Z beach: Interesting point.
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2015-12-17T06:38:05Z Quadrescence: ASDF is giving me a headache. Anyone know why this configuration isn't finding the component FOO: http://codepad.org/cdip1Dkv
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2015-12-17T06:49:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: Hi, I get a no-applicable-method error when I gave a print-object method. Is there anything wrong with my method definitions? http://paste.lisp.org/display/221281
2015-12-17T06:50:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: The other CLOS objects I have print out fine, so I don't think I've messed up the most general print-object.
2015-12-17T06:51:00Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, can you paste the error?
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2015-12-17T06:51:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: http://paste.lisp.org/display/221295
2015-12-17T06:52:44Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, are you mixing up branch and leaf?
2015-12-17T06:52:57Z Quadrescence: shouldnt branch have NE/NW/...?
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2015-12-17T06:53:03Z pillton: Are there methods for ne,nw,sw and se ?
2015-12-17T06:53:16Z Quadrescence: So when it tries to call that method, it's trying to access NE on a leaf, which doesn't make sense in the usual definition of a leaf
2015-12-17T06:53:26Z Quadrescence: but it can't print the error because it can't print the object
2015-12-17T06:53:36Z Petit_Dejeuner: Oh. I think I just have my leaf and node mixed up.
2015-12-17T06:53:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: er, leaf and branch
2015-12-17T06:54:47Z pillton: Is there a way to make asdf:test-system work when there is no source code?
2015-12-17T06:54:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: I feel silly. That's all that was wrong. Thanks.
2015-12-17T06:55:39Z Quadrescence: pillton, define the TEST-OP for the system to call whatever function you'd like?
2015-12-17T06:56:18Z pillton: It is trying to load the system.
2015-12-17T06:56:32Z pillton: The system is dumped in an executable though.
2015-12-17T06:57:11Z Quadrescence: pillton, A system called :FOO which you want to test is dumped you mean?
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2015-12-17T07:00:51Z pillton: I dumped an executable from a run time environment which was initialized with all of the necessary systems.
2015-12-17T07:02:08Z pillton: I delete the source code since it is no longer necessary, but asdf:test-system still wants to load files.
2015-12-17T07:02:58Z Quadrescence: pillton, and this is after you've defined your own test-op method?
2015-12-17T07:03:34Z pillton: Yes. asdf:test-system works fine when the source code is present.
2015-12-17T07:06:44Z Quadrescence: pillton, what does your test-op method do?
2015-12-17T07:07:08Z pillton: Calls 5am:run!
2015-12-17T07:08:09Z Quadrescence: pillton, I guess my last question is: Do you load your test system? I suspect what's happening is it's looking on disk for anything that has changed, so it can determine whether or not to reload.
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2015-12-17T07:09:57Z pillton: Yep. I load the test system. Test-op probably depends on load-op.
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2015-12-17T07:36:21Z pillton: Ok. It is possible. Set the class slot asdf::selfward-operation of asdf:test-op to nil.
2015-12-17T07:37:13Z pillton sings with joy.
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2015-12-17T07:41:36Z loke: The source code for our project, the Slack-like chat application is finally released. It's taken way too long.
2015-12-17T07:41:57Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato
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2015-12-17T07:53:50Z jackdaniel: loke: grats :)
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2015-12-17T07:54:17Z loke: jackdaniel: Thanks :-)
2015-12-17T07:54:29Z loke: I have been working on the Emacs client too. It's getting pretty neat
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2015-12-17T10:57:56Z pillton: loke: Congratulations.
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2015-12-17T11:08:32Z luis: loke: nice :)
2015-12-17T11:08:43Z loke: Thanks :-)
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2015-12-17T11:40:01Z DeadTrickster: loke, 👍
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2015-12-17T11:43:10Z loke: Thanks
2015-12-17T11:43:17Z loke: Well, time to head home.
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2015-12-17T11:43:50Z DeadTrickster: loke, go and write blog posts
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2015-12-17T11:45:16Z DeadTrickster: I'm particularly interested in you experience with clojurescript
2015-12-17T11:45:54Z DeadTrickster: why it was chosen over parenscript and how it integrates with 3d party code
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2015-12-17T12:06:41Z atgreen_: Just finished my OpenShift source-to-image docker image for Common Lisp + Quicklisp . Works super well in the OpenShift Origin PaaS.  http://github.com/atgreen/sti-lisp
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2015-12-17T12:10:39Z DeadTrickster: atgreen_, cool do I still need docker when sbcl compiles to just single binary?
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2015-12-17T12:13:27Z atgreen_: DeadTrickster, if you want to run it in a PaaS you do.
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2015-12-17T12:14:53Z atgreen_: where the PaaS plaforms handles deployments, availability, rolling-upgrades, a CICD workflow, etc..
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2015-12-17T12:18:07Z DeadTrickster: atgreen_, so if I already have all this except PaaS I don't need it?
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2015-12-17T12:28:12Z atgreen_: DeadTrickster, right.
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2015-12-17T12:29:34Z atgreen_: You don't need docker.  And even if you did need docker, there are plenty of other docker lisp images out there.  This one is specific to the source-to-image tool in OpenShift, where you just point it at a git repo containing your lisp app and it generates a deployable docker image of pre-compiled code ready to rock
2015-12-17T12:30:20Z atgreen_: http://www.openshift.org
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2015-12-17T12:35:31Z DeadTrickster: atgreen_, yeah sound cool, that is why I asked you that questions. however I always thought docker is more dunno ruby or node stuff. Where development env can be complex (gem-hell) and docker simply hides it
2015-12-17T12:35:50Z DeadTrickster: but it looks like docker just evolved to 'compute unit'
2015-12-17T12:36:00Z moredhel: DeadTrickster, docker is suprisingly useful for 'predictable' running envs.
2015-12-17T12:36:28Z moredhel: I develop and deploy projects in many different langs, and it makes life really easy
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2015-12-17T12:37:49Z DeadTrickster: hmm now I'm only using cl and erlang
2015-12-17T12:37:59Z DeadTrickster: and both like 'self-contained'
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2015-12-17T12:41:04Z moredhel: yeah, playing with cl, when I wanted to deploy, it _can_ get pretty messy. Can't comment about erlang
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2015-12-17T12:43:51Z narvodkode: Erlang software is commonly expected to follow the OTP model, which is very well documented when it comes to individual bits, but can't be learnt easily
2015-12-17T12:43:57Z narvodkode: By oneself, that is
2015-12-17T12:44:17Z narvodkode: So it might be conceptually messy rather than technically messy :)
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2015-12-17T13:00:31Z francogrex: I am trying something crazy like: (loop for k in '(list1 list2 list3) do (loop for i in k do (push i masterlist))) where list1 list2 list2 are actual lists but as probably expected the code above works not: says the value list1 is not of type list
2015-12-17T13:01:11Z francogrex: is it because of the quote?
2015-12-17T13:01:27Z francogrex: if ' is replaced with list then ok
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2015-12-17T13:02:59Z scymtym_: francogrex: yes. '(list1 list2 list3) is a list containing the symbols list1, list2, list3. compare to (list list1 list2 list3) which is a list containing the values of the variables list1, list2, list3.
2015-12-17T13:03:32Z francogrex: scymtym_: ok it makes sense
2015-12-17T13:03:34Z francogrex: thanks
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2015-12-17T13:16:22Z dim: see also append
2015-12-17T13:17:09Z dim: (let ((l1 (list 1 2 3)) (l2 (list 4 5 6)) (l3 (list 7 8 9))) (append l1 l2 l3)) gives (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
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2015-12-17T13:21:40Z francogrex: ok
2015-12-17T13:22:03Z bhajana: greetings someone here familiar with the dbus package? and can explain to me what event-base is supposed to be. i'd just like to receive all signals of a particular service.
2015-12-17T13:22:29Z bhajana: unfortunately there's only one example and the documentation is also non-existent
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2015-12-17T13:24:17Z bhajana: :/ being impolite, not saying please.
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2015-12-17T13:24:30Z bhajana: please if anyone has a hint. thank you very much!
2015-12-17T13:26:11Z Cymew: bhajana: I think there are better channels than #lisp for that question.
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2015-12-17T13:26:49Z bhajana: Cymew: you know any. i don't know any other channels so far.
2015-12-17T13:26:58Z jackdaniel: Cymew: he asks about https://github.com/death/dbus
2015-12-17T13:27:01Z bhajana: where i could ask questions about common lisp
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2015-12-17T13:27:07Z bhajana: right
2015-12-17T13:27:08Z jackdaniel: bhajana: it's good channel
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2015-12-17T13:27:22Z jackdaniel: I never used it, so can't help
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2015-12-17T13:27:55Z Cymew: It might have helped to indicate it was a lisp system.
2015-12-17T13:28:23Z bhajana: hm k there's WITH-EVENT-BASE which seems to be define within IOLib
2015-12-17T13:28:34Z bhajana: Cymew: sry
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2015-12-17T13:28:53Z jackdaniel:  I assume, that if someone asks about something here it is lisp related. If in doubt (like now), I've checked in google "common lisp dbus" before pointing it's a wrong channel
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2015-12-17T13:28:58Z jackdaniel: hrmph
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2015-12-17T13:34:33Z bhajana: i'll try my luck with an iolib.multiplex event-base
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2015-12-17T14:32:47Z bhajana: does someone have the lasted iolib doc as an pdf?
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2015-12-17T14:39:51Z bhajana: hm what is texinfo-docstring doing with those paths :/
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2015-12-17T14:48:25Z bhajana: can't make the docs because texinfo-docstring uses unreasonable pathnames :/ ---- Couldn't load #P"/home/sarala/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.3.1-linux
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2015-12-17T14:48:27Z bhajana: -x64/home/sarala/.cache/lisp-fasl/sbcl-1.3.1-linux-x86-64/home/sarala/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.3.1-linux-x64/home/sarala/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20150505-git/package.fasl": file does not exi
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2015-12-17T15:30:29Z warweasle: Do objects loaded in fasl ever get GC'ed?
2015-12-17T15:30:41Z dlowe: yes
2015-12-17T15:30:49Z dlowe: it's just like reading from the source file
2015-12-17T15:30:51Z nyef: It depends on the implementation.
2015-12-17T15:31:08Z nyef: Though in general, they are subject to GC.
2015-12-17T15:31:29Z warweasle: nyef: Thanks, I guess I misunderstood.
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2015-12-17T15:35:24Z Xach: warweasle: thanks for the clinch fix
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2015-12-17T15:35:47Z Xach: warweasle: clode doesn't build due to: Duplicate definition for BODY-SET-MOVED-CALLBACK found in  one file.
2015-12-17T15:36:16Z loke_: Xach: do you know how is the maintainer of Closure-HTML?
2015-12-17T15:36:41Z loke_: Xach: Also, is there some place that lists the origin (like github repository url's) of all the QL systems?
2015-12-17T15:36:47Z Xach: loke_: possibly nobody, in effect
2015-12-17T15:37:02Z Xach: loke_: see https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects
2015-12-17T15:37:23Z loke_: Xach: Hmm... I have a project that requires a patch to closure-html for it to work, and it's been like that for years.
2015-12-17T15:37:47Z Xach: loke_: i would check the commit history of closure-html if you can and see if anyone looks responsive
2015-12-17T15:37:54Z mtl_: loke_: if it's not maintained, fork it
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2015-12-17T15:38:00Z moore33: loke_: That brings back memories...
2015-12-17T15:38:05Z dlowe: loke_: I actually have the patch to make it work again
2015-12-17T15:38:12Z dlowe: you probably do too now, though
2015-12-17T15:38:14Z dlowe: it wasn't too hard
2015-12-17T15:38:40Z loke_: I'd only fork it if QL switches to my fork. So in either case, I'd need to get in touch with whoever owns the project.
2015-12-17T15:39:05Z loke_: dlowe: WHat patch do you have?
2015-12-17T15:39:22Z dlowe: loke_: just something that gets it to build and work
2015-12-17T15:40:03Z Xach: you could also just ask to be the new maintainer
2015-12-17T15:40:27Z loke_: Xach: I don't want to :-)  But I'll do it if no one else steps up.
2015-12-17T15:40:36Z Xach: it could be put under sharplispers, too
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2015-12-17T15:41:25Z dlowe: don't look at me. I can't keep up with my current few projects.
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2015-12-17T15:42:12Z moore33: Xach: Hey, is there a minimum level of usefulness for a project to be in QuickLisp?
2015-12-17T15:42:18Z Xach: moore33: no
2015-12-17T15:42:37Z Xach: moore33: though i very occasionally push back on extremely silly- or misguided-seeming projects
2015-12-17T15:42:55Z moore33: Xach: Ok... I will have a pull request before New Year's...
2015-12-17T15:43:01Z dlowe: my dolist replacement library can finally get the attention and fame it deserves
2015-12-17T15:43:05Z Xach: someone submitted something to make a macro of make-instance so you don't have to quote the class name. i have pushed back on that.
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2015-12-17T15:43:18Z dlowe: haha
2015-12-17T15:43:24Z moore33: There should be a standard for that...
2015-12-17T15:43:43Z Xach is still recovering from moving house a few weeks ago
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2015-12-17T15:50:52Z mtl_: would it be possible to add f-expressions to common lisp? I kinda doubt it, but it would be interesting
2015-12-17T15:51:15Z loke_: mtl_: Hmm, would it be interesting? Really? :-)
2015-12-17T15:51:29Z mtl_: I think so anyway :P
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2015-12-17T15:53:00Z mea-culpa: mtl_: f-expressions?
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2015-12-17T15:53:31Z mtl_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fexpr
2015-12-17T15:53:49Z loke_: mtl_: Oh, wait. I confused it with M-expr
2015-12-17T15:54:07Z loke_: You can build an f-expr builder as a macro.
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2015-12-17T15:55:42Z scymtym_: dim: after a huge amount of work, a basic variant of the "better errors" stuff is now in esrap master
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2015-12-17T15:58:08Z dim: nice, thanks for that!
2015-12-17T15:58:39Z dlowe: mtl_: the idea has been explored before. The result was that it's too hard to compile to fast code.
2015-12-17T15:58:52Z dim: I might be able to remove the `git clone -b wip-better-errors https://github.com/scymtym/esrap.git $@` from the pgloader Makefile then?
2015-12-17T15:59:06Z dlowe: and the gains aren't that large
2015-12-17T15:59:32Z Jonsky: BTW, what's the difference between mexp and sexp? I can only see the difference bewteen square bracket and parenthesis
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2015-12-17T15:59:58Z scymtym_: dim: after a bit of testing, sure. i don't expect major defects in the currently pushed parts
2015-12-17T16:00:38Z mtl_: loke_: how? seems hard to do to me, especially if I want anonymous fexprs
2015-12-17T16:01:36Z loke_: mtl_: You're probably right. I haven't thought about it much.
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2015-12-17T16:03:54Z mtl_: maybe it's somehow possible with MOP and funcallable-instance stuff
2015-12-17T16:05:04Z dlowe: I think one of the niche lisps has f-exprs. I haven't played with them, though.
2015-12-17T16:05:11Z warweasle: Anyone know what cffi:define-foreign-type's :simple-parser option does? Also, what is canonicalize-foreign-type? It's in the example but I can't find it anywhere.
2015-12-17T16:05:37Z Xach: warweasle: should i open an issue re: clode?
2015-12-17T16:06:12Z mtl_: dlowe: yeah, kernel does, and apparently some others, and lisp used to way back in the day
2015-12-17T16:06:27Z mtl_: but this is the CL channel after all
2015-12-17T16:06:27Z dlowe: Jonsky: the function precedes the [ in m-exprs
2015-12-17T16:06:39Z warweasle: Xach: For the Swank issue? I thought I already fixed it.
2015-12-17T16:06:52Z Xach: warweasle: no, for the clode multiple definition issue
2015-12-17T16:06:53Z warweasle: Xach: It didn't email you?
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2015-12-17T16:07:06Z warweasle: Xach: What?
2015-12-17T16:07:28Z Xach: warweasle: clode doesn't build due to: Duplicate definition for BODY-SET-MOVED-CALLBACK found in  one file.
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2015-12-17T16:10:21Z dim: scymtym_: well even with the "better errors" branch users are lost as soon as the command doesn't parse anyway, not sure how much testing I will do, I currently don't have anything covering error messages for sure
2015-12-17T16:11:25Z warweasle: Xach: I just removed the second one and promoted it. Funny it loads on mine just fine. Do you use some debugging tool?
2015-12-17T16:11:56Z Xach: warweasle: quicklisp by default suppresses warning output. those warnings break builds on sbcl if not suppressed. when i test for quicklisp inclusion, i don't suppress warnings.
2015-12-17T16:12:08Z Xach: you can see the warnings & the breakage if you use (ql:quickload ... :verbose t)
2015-12-17T16:12:14Z Xach: it is not a great situation
2015-12-17T16:12:18Z warweasle: Xach: Ahhhh.
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2015-12-17T16:13:16Z warweasle really wants to spin off cl-freeimage, cl-pango and clode into separate libs but is afraid to break things.
2015-12-17T16:13:27Z scymtym_: dim: with some moderately cooperative grammar, it should basically say something like "parse failed at <sensible position with offending snippet shown> while parsing <rule name> [because of <reason>] expected <list of expected inputs>". i hope that can help even non-expert users in some cases.
2015-12-17T16:13:38Z Xach: warweasle: thanks for fixing the clode issue
2015-12-17T16:14:25Z warweasle: Xach: Always. Thanks for being patient with me. I'm doing a lot of work with my First Person Shooter (under clinch examples) so I'm bound to break something.
2015-12-17T16:14:41Z moore33: warweasle:Is cl-freeimage the recommended way to load images in CL these days?
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2015-12-17T16:16:24Z warweasle: moore33: I don't think so. It's just a very raw set of cffi calls. And you have to get all of CLinch to get it. I do have some wrappers for loading images into Cairo, however. But they are, again, very limited since I only use RGBA32 images internally.
2015-12-17T16:17:01Z warweasle: moore33: I mean, it should work if you are willing to work with raw calls.
2015-12-17T16:17:20Z dim: scymtym_: the list of expected inputs is very large in most pgloader user reports :/
2015-12-17T16:17:44Z dim: it might be the grammar not being cooperative enough tho
2015-12-17T16:18:00Z scymtym_: dim: do you have examples? maybe something can be done about it
2015-12-17T16:18:03Z moore33: Hmm, I'm looking for some nice way to load png and jpeg files (.rgb would be nice too); I'm not gonna do much with them other than send the data to OpenGL. I guess it would be nice to be able to write .png too.
2015-12-17T16:18:03Z warweasle: moore33: OH, it's already in quicklisp! I'll make sure it's updated properly. My mistake, you don't need to load CLinch.
2015-12-17T16:18:16Z dim: it should be very easy to find them on github
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2015-12-17T16:18:57Z moore33: warweasle: Cool.
2015-12-17T16:19:04Z warweasle: moore33: CLinch does all that. I even have a few examples. (you can even see them at https://www.youtube.com/user/WarWeasle1/videos )
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2015-12-17T16:19:29Z moore33: warweasle: Cool; it's for my own rendering engine efforts.
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2015-12-17T16:22:08Z warweasle: moore33: Feel free to rip out anything you like from CLinch.
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2015-12-17T16:24:42Z warweasle: moore33: I have some nice macros such as load-texture-from-file, load-animation for freeimage and  with-surface-for-texture, with-context-for-texture, and create-texture-from-png for cairo2.
2015-12-17T16:25:09Z moore33: warweasle: Hey thanks! I'm currently looking it over. Conversely, you might be interested in https://github.com/timoore/lpsg, although it does very little and has less documentation.
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2015-12-17T16:25:51Z dim: scymtym_: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/212
2015-12-17T16:26:45Z dim: scymtym_: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/199 too
2015-12-17T16:27:20Z dim: scymtym_: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/194 for yet another one
2015-12-17T16:27:27Z dim: I guess that'll do for you to have an idea
2015-12-17T16:29:42Z scymtym_: dim: indeed, thanks. of those, one is the original behavior and two are the prototypical "better errors" behavior. all of those should produce shorter reports now (admittedly depending on the details of the grammar)
2015-12-17T16:30:11Z scymtym_: i will try loading the pgloader parser and see what happens for those inputs
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2015-12-17T16:33:37Z moore33: À plus tard...
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2015-12-17T16:36:28Z dim: scymtym_: you can pretty easily produce errors from the test cases too
2015-12-17T16:37:20Z dim: scymtym_: (pgloader::with-monitor () (pgloader::parse-commands-from-file "/Users/dim/dev/pgloader/test/sakila.load"))
2015-12-17T16:37:31Z warweasle: Xach: I just updated cl-freeimage. Is there any chance you can include it this ql release?
2015-12-17T16:37:47Z scymtym_: dim: yeah, that's basically what i did last time
2015-12-17T16:37:50Z dim: tweak source file location of course... you need a pgloader "monitor" thread to be able to run the parser, so that's how I do it
2015-12-17T16:37:56Z dim: ok
2015-12-17T16:38:08Z dim: this part of the API is in between being private or public
2015-12-17T16:38:23Z dim: so it's still exposing too much
2015-12-17T16:38:34Z dim: but I don't guess pgloader users want to deal with only parsing some commands
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2015-12-17T16:47:19Z Xach: warweasle: i think i can do that
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2015-12-17T16:49:53Z warweasle: Xach: Thanks. I might get with you before the next update and coordinate moving cl-pango and clode (to become cl-ode) into QL.
2015-12-17T16:50:06Z Xach: i really hope to publish a new dist today
2015-12-17T16:50:12Z Xach: that has been the case for the last 5 days
2015-12-17T16:51:03Z warweasle: Xach: Apologies for adding to your load. Why don't I buy you a beer next time we meet?
2015-12-17T16:51:18Z Xach: And I will buy you something from LL Bean(e)!
2015-12-17T16:52:20Z warweasle: Xach: Unless I'm buying you proper ambrosia, I'm coming out ahead on this on.
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2015-12-17T16:53:07Z warweasle: Does anyone know what cffi:define-foreign-type's :simple-parser option does?
2015-12-17T16:53:17Z Xach could not figure out a better way to make a lame joke about last names
2015-12-17T16:54:05Z warweasle: Xach: OHHhh. That makes sense now.
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2015-12-17T17:00:37Z switchp0rt: how can i use strings with escape newline chars? I want to send a string to a server that ends in a \n. Everyone I send that to the server it just adds a literal 'n' to the end of the string
2015-12-17T17:00:50Z switchp0rt: (print "version\n") => versionn
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2015-12-17T17:03:29Z Xach: switchp0rt: You could try (format "version~C" #\Newline)
2015-12-17T17:03:30Z jasom: switchp0rt: either use cl-interpol or don't escape the newline
2015-12-17T17:04:06Z jasom: Xach: or (format t "version~%")
2015-12-17T17:04:15Z jasom: if specifically a newline isn't important
2015-12-17T17:04:28Z jasom: ~% may be a \r or a \r\n on some platforms
2015-12-17T17:04:30Z Xach: switchp0rt: does the server expect specifically ascii 10?
2015-12-17T17:04:54Z switchp0rt: ascii 10?
2015-12-17T17:05:17Z Xach: switchp0rt: ascii encodes the newline control character as the octet 10
2015-12-17T17:05:23Z jasom: switchp0rt: newline is ascii character 10 aka ^J
2015-12-17T17:05:24Z Xach: well, the integer 10, anyway
2015-12-17T17:05:52Z Xach: some protocols get pretty specific about what they expect to designate the end of a line.
2015-12-17T17:05:54Z switchp0rt: thought newline was 12 in octet
2015-12-17T17:05:57Z switchp0rt: but yes, it expects it
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2015-12-17T17:06:14Z jasom: switchp0rt: decimal 10 octal 12 either way it's stored in an octet
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2015-12-17T17:08:13Z jasom: switchp0rt: then Xach's version is probably right, or you could use a binary stream instead
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2015-12-17T17:09:18Z nyef: There are environments where the text format is a 16-bit length followed by that many characters, followed by optional padding to align to a 16-bit boundary.
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2015-12-17T17:43:28Z PuercoPop: mtl_: If you are interesd in fexprs check out http://github.com/manuel/wat-js
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2015-12-17T17:50:11Z Jonsky: Question: I tried to make a toy repl but I'm stuck at the very first step. I cannot print the prompt.
2015-12-17T17:50:39Z mtl_: PuercoPop: interesting...
2015-12-17T17:50:49Z Jonsky: The "> " prompt appears several times after I typed "quit"
2015-12-17T17:50:59Z Xach: Jonsky: (print "> ") (force-output) may help
2015-12-17T17:51:55Z mtl_: PuercoPop: other that fexprs though, I don't see what it brings over clojurescript? why embed some lispy DSL in your js when you can just replace js with clojurescript
2015-12-17T17:52:24Z mtl_: but yeah, definitely looks like a cool way to play with f-exprs
2015-12-17T17:52:42Z Jonsky: Xach: Yes it does the trick, thanks!! Any deeper reason behind the delay of printing? It's not the first time I see this weird behaviour.
2015-12-17T17:53:21Z Xach: Jonsky: terminal behavior often includes buffering output until some specific event, like a newline, or a certain number of characters.
2015-12-17T17:53:43Z Xach: Jonsky: for a short bit of output with no newline, it is entirely possible for the terminal to wait to output until later.
2015-12-17T17:53:54Z Xach: you can control such settings, and force output, and other options
2015-12-17T17:54:18Z Xach: this is not specific to lisp, but cl has some functions to help manage it
2015-12-17T17:55:10Z dwchandler: the common case being that you build a line bit by bit but it's not interactive and only matters once you have the full line ready to send
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2015-12-17T17:55:53Z dwchandler: waiting for newline of full buffer makes for more efficiency, especially in the case of the data going over tcp/ip
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2015-12-17T17:56:37Z dwchandler: i.e., tcp packet with 1 character in it has a lot of overhead
2015-12-17T17:56:59Z nyef: Also note that the C standard library can also have similar buffering behavior, controlled by setbuf(3).
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2015-12-17T18:01:08Z Jonsky: Xach: Ah ha, the makes much more sense now. Thanks!!
2015-12-17T18:01:11Z Jonsky: this*
2015-12-17T18:01:58Z Jonsky: dwchandler: nyef: I see now. It's actually a very common thing.
2015-12-17T18:02:08Z dlowe: also, if you're using unix, the *terminal* can also have buffering behavior, controlled by tcattr
2015-12-17T18:02:16Z dlowe: it's buffers all the way down
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2015-12-17T18:08:17Z Jonsky: So is (force-output) enough to push everything out of the buffer or I have to also learn the intricacies of the OS? :(
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2015-12-17T18:11:05Z dlowe: I've found force-output to usually be sufficient
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2015-12-17T18:11:44Z jasom: Jonsky: I would say if it isn't sufficient, that would be a deficiency in the lisp runtime implementation
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2015-12-17T18:12:24Z dwchandler: same for me
2015-12-17T18:12:25Z jasom: force-output should be aware of all of the OS idiosyncracies for you
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2015-12-17T18:17:23Z Jonsky: Phew, I was so worried there are too much to learn in order to write just a simple repl
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2015-12-17T18:56:33Z Xach: there are a few things but not too many
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2015-12-17T19:33:32Z jasom: If you don't want a prompt, then it's a lot easier (loop (print (eval (read))) (fresh-line)) is enough
2015-12-17T19:34:29Z jasom: though setting */**/*** and +/++/+++ would be useful features to add to that
2015-12-17T19:34:49Z nyef: And -, /, //, and ///, surely?
2015-12-17T19:35:11Z jasom: nyef: of course, I forget about those as I use them less often
2015-12-17T19:35:45Z jasom: and handling multiple-values at all would be useful too for that matter
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2015-12-17T19:35:57Z Xach: o,ö,ø
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2015-12-17T20:32:19Z edgar-rft: Xach: Pöpcørn?
2015-12-17T20:32:23Z Jonsky: I haven't thought of putting / // // or * ** into my toy repl yet. Just struggling with the most basic thing. hahaa
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2015-12-17T20:52:17Z Xach: Jonsky: shiftf is handy for them
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2015-12-17T21:47:31Z ralt: hi
2015-12-17T21:47:45Z ralt: I'm playing with lparallel and am wondering how some parallelization should be done
2015-12-17T21:47:58Z ralt: I submit some tasks in a loop, which is done in parallel
2015-12-17T21:48:01Z ralt: so that part is nice
2015-12-17T21:48:34Z ralt: later on, I have a (loop for foo = (receive-result chan) while foo do ...)
2015-12-17T21:48:46Z ralt: this is *not* done in parallel, while I'd like it to be
2015-12-17T21:48:57Z ralt: I guess the "do" should "send in parallel"?
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2015-12-17T21:49:03Z ralt: I don't see how to do that
2015-12-17T21:49:55Z ralt: since submit-task expects a receive at some point, and I don't care there
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2015-12-17T22:10:54Z ebrasca: how to do great function names?
2015-12-17T22:11:13Z mordocai: Welcome to the hardest problem in computer science
2015-12-17T22:11:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: we're running out of three letter acronyms too
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2015-12-17T22:13:29Z nyef: Petit_Dejeuner: I thought that that was what unicode was for? More letters for acronyms?
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2015-12-17T22:14:20Z Bicyclidine: my TÐǞ project is gonna rock your socks
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2015-12-17T22:14:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: How many english words start with a letter that isn't ASCII?
2015-12-17T22:15:58Z ebrasca: I have clear image of what me function do but I don't know what name give it
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2015-12-17T22:17:21Z Bicyclidine: try github's project name generator. motherly-amphichiral-metalocalypse. terrific-cascading-failure
2015-12-17T22:17:59Z prxq: ebrasca: what does the function do?
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2015-12-17T22:25:57Z ebrasca: prxq: make index for vao with rectangular grid forms
2015-12-17T22:26:39Z prxq: ebrasca: (defun vao-index-from-rectangular-grid-form (....) ...)
2015-12-17T22:27:01Z prxq: ebrasca: when programming: v-i-f-r-g-f M-<tab>
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2015-12-17T22:42:40Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: does Æ count?
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2015-12-17T22:46:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: No
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2015-12-17T22:48:57Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: 17.
2015-12-17T22:49:10Z pjb: grep '^[^a-zA-Z]'  /usr/share/dict/words|wc -l --> 17
2015-12-17T22:49:58Z jasom: pjb: which word list is that?  I get zero
2015-12-17T22:50:03Z pjb: Well, if you remove possessives and plurals, 7:  Ångström éclair éclat élan émigré épée étude
2015-12-17T22:50:23Z pjb: I don't know, it's the /usr/share/dict/words on GNU/Linux debian 8.2 jessie
2015-12-17T22:50:23Z pjb:  
2015-12-17T22:50:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: Capital letters usually drop the accent anyway, don't they?
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2015-12-17T22:50:39Z pjb: Not in French.
2015-12-17T22:51:03Z pjb: Accents in French are as importants as capitals or comas in English.
2015-12-17T22:51:28Z xantoz: more, really
2015-12-17T22:52:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: I remember hearing that the french would drop accents for something in all caps. Did I mishear?
2015-12-17T22:52:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: For the first letter only.
2015-12-17T22:52:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: Maybe I'm imagining things.
2015-12-17T22:53:06Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: that may happen, but that's not the typological rules of the Imprimerie Nationale.
2015-12-17T22:53:54Z pjb: Computers have had a bad influence on typography in all languages, during the early period…
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2015-12-17T23:00:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: If only we all spoke ASCII.
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2015-12-17T23:03:12Z mtl_: Petit_Dejeuner: real programmers speak unicode
2015-12-17T23:03:37Z jasom: mtl_: real programmers speak EUC
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2015-12-17T23:04:47Z mtl_: real programmers can just dd if=ears of=head
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2015-12-17T23:06:23Z nyef: dd if=one-ear of=the-other
2015-12-17T23:06:36Z mtl_: that's also a useful one for sure
2015-12-17T23:06:37Z mtl_: :D
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2015-12-17T23:47:39Z mordocai: Anyone know of a good common lisp IRC bouncer? I'm endeavoring to make as much of my day to day software as possible be common lisp. I see https://github.com/ralt/nyx but not it doesn't look like it does much yet. Obviously i'll use ZNC if I can't find one (or write one, but probably not that)
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2015-12-17T23:50:12Z nyef: ... Is the source for chavatar available anywhere? I realize that it probably wouldn't run in a modern CL infrastructure, but it might be salvagable.
2015-12-17T23:53:27Z jasom: nyef: all of the links from Brian's blog point to a deleted cliki page
2015-12-17T23:54:10Z mtl_: speaking of irc clients, are there any common lisp irc clients in common use these days?
2015-12-17T23:54:35Z mtl_: i've found beirc but i'm not sure if it's still in use
2015-12-17T23:54:38Z nyef: jasom: Which page?
2015-12-17T23:57:28Z mtl_: thinking of just writing my own if I can't find a decent terminal one
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2015-12-17T23:57:54Z jasom: nyef: chavatar; the history points to an svn server that no longer exists
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2015-12-17T23:59:16Z nyef: ... ASDF-Install link was, at one point, http://www.unmutual.info/software/chavatar-2.0.0.tar.gz
2015-12-17T23:59:28Z jasom: yeah, unmutual.info no longer seems to exist
2015-12-17T23:59:32Z nyef: Ah, damn.
2015-12-17T23:59:50Z nyef: chavatar was kindof neat to use. Very web 1.5 or so, though.