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2015-06-19T03:06:52Z emaczen: So I wrote a macro that copies and wraps its &body argument to a parenscript file and then also evaluates the &body in Lisp.
2015-06-19T03:07:22Z emaczen: I only want to write this file when it has been modified
2015-06-19T03:08:33Z nyef: READ it and check for EQUALP ?
2015-06-19T03:09:37Z nyef: Read it as a string, write the new version to a string, compare the two, and check for STRING=?
2015-06-19T03:09:52Z emaczen: Doesn't this require having stored the last write contents somewhere?
2015-06-19T03:10:08Z nyef: I thought that that was the point of having a file?
2015-06-19T03:10:24Z nyef: You HAVE the last contents written, by definition!
2015-06-19T03:11:14Z emaczen: haha wow...
2015-06-19T03:11:18Z emaczen: Yes you are right
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2015-06-19T03:11:30Z emaczen: I have to do a tiny amount of parsing but cool!
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2015-06-19T03:21:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-19T03:21:50Z emaczen: morning beach
2015-06-19T03:22:29Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-19T03:24:01Z theos: o/
2015-06-19T03:24:07Z drmeister: Hi beach - I saw your response to my response to your response.  I get it.  I write the function body into the FASL file and I use it to regenerate the AST at load-time - I have inlining working.
2015-06-19T03:24:57Z beach: I think it is required that it be minimally compiled.
2015-06-19T03:29:09Z beach: drmeister: In case you forgot: "minimal compilation" is a technical term that implies that all macros are expanded.
2015-06-19T03:32:08Z nyef still hasn't reached a decision on the directory for parts of NQ-CLIM that aren't directly supporting the UI. /-:
2015-06-19T03:32:23Z beach: :(
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2015-06-19T03:33:02Z nyef: I'm currently looking at it as: Given two package names, :nq-clim/.../named-constant-mixin and :nq-clim/.../mv-setf , what is the ...?
2015-06-19T03:33:50Z beach: So this time it is package names rather than directory names?
2015-06-19T03:34:05Z nyef: Yes, but it's both, because I use package-inferred-system.
2015-06-19T03:34:06Z beach: But you want them to be the same?
2015-06-19T03:34:13Z Bike: what's mv-setf for? can't you do that with regular setf?
2015-06-19T03:34:13Z beach: Yes, I see.
2015-06-19T03:34:17Z nyef: And yes, they're both the same "sort" of thing.
2015-06-19T03:34:34Z beach: Bike: CLIM II has a multiple-value SETF.
2015-06-19T03:34:41Z drmeister: beach: I don't have a minimal compiler unless Cleavir has one that I can use.
2015-06-19T03:34:47Z Bike: Yeah, but why?
2015-06-19T03:35:09Z beach: Bike: I agree, it should be removed if you are doing NQ anyway.
2015-06-19T03:35:31Z beach: drmeister: Cleavir has one, but I am not using it, so it might have bitrotted.
2015-06-19T03:35:31Z nyef: Bike: It's to be able to use method specialization to dispatch aspects of SETF with a multi-valued place.
2015-06-19T03:36:05Z nyef: Does Cleavir not do macroexpansion as part of conversion to AST form?
2015-06-19T03:36:13Z beach: It does.
2015-06-19T03:36:23Z beach: But drmeister wants to save source code it seems.
2015-06-19T03:36:33Z beach: I wouldn't do that, but that's what he wants to do.
2015-06-19T03:37:13Z drmeister: I don't need to save source - that seemed easiest - but not it sounds like the AST might be easier because I don't do minimal compilation.
2015-06-19T03:37:14Z beach: Yesterday, in #clasp, I suggested several possibilities.
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2015-06-19T03:37:34Z beach: 1. Save a minimally-compiled version of the source.
2015-06-19T03:37:45Z beach: 2. Save a serialized version of the AST.
2015-06-19T03:38:07Z beach: 3. Create load forms to re-create an isomorphic AST at load time.
2015-06-19T03:38:09Z |3b|: doesn't sbcl inline a non-minimally-compiled ast (or whatever form it is at that point)?
2015-06-19T03:39:07Z nyef: I don't know that I need MV-SETF, but I already have a version implemented that I can use if I decide that I need it. And it's clearly the same kind of thing as the named-constant-mixin which I definitely need, so I can still use it to determine where mv-setf would go if I DID need it.
2015-06-19T03:39:24Z drmeister: How do I serialize the AST?
2015-06-19T03:39:45Z nyef: |3b|: I thought it inlined the ICR/IR1 version, which is already macroexpanded and whatnot?
2015-06-19T03:39:52Z beach: drmeister: Basically (print ast)
2015-06-19T03:40:08Z beach: drmeister: The io stuff and save-info stuff is designed for that.
2015-06-19T03:40:11Z drmeister: beach: That doesn't sound complicated enough.
2015-06-19T03:40:19Z nyef: Admittedly, this would be the part of SBCL's compiler that I understand the least...
2015-06-19T03:40:21Z drmeister: It needs to be more complicated.
2015-06-19T03:40:22Z |3b|: nyef: seem to remember recently running into problems with macros creating symbols in the wrong package when calling function was inlined
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2015-06-19T03:40:29Z |3b| may be misremembering though
2015-06-19T03:40:36Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-06-19T03:40:41Z drmeister: I should write a minimal compiler.
2015-06-19T03:40:50Z beach: drmeister: It might be incomplete, but the infrastructure is there.
2015-06-19T03:41:12Z beach: drmeister: It is the same kind of serialization that we have discussed for other things in the past.
2015-06-19T03:41:43Z beach: drmeister: It must be almost complete, because the same infrastructure is used for cloning ASTs as part of inlining.
2015-06-19T03:43:10Z beach: drmeister: The same infrastructure could be used to define make-load-form (or whatever it is called).
2015-06-19T03:43:52Z nyef: beach: On the upside, I'm about ready to stomp the region-composition stuff into the ground.
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2015-06-19T03:44:09Z beach: nyef: Sounds like a good plan.
2015-06-19T03:44:56Z beach: drmeister: If you like, you can try the Cleavir minimal compiler.
2015-06-19T03:46:31Z |3b|: yeah, seems like sbcl just inlines at source level without minimal compilation, if i'm reading the responses in http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/sbcl/2015-02/sbcl-2015.02.05.txt correctly
2015-06-19T03:46:55Z |3b| isn't expressing approval of that strategy, just precedent :)
2015-06-19T03:49:09Z nyef: Okay, I have an interesting line of argument: Once a function has been minimally compiled, proclaiming one of its variables to be special must not affect the minimally-compiled version.
2015-06-19T03:49:25Z nyef: clhs 3.2.2.3
2015-06-19T03:49:25Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
2015-06-19T03:49:58Z beach: Right.  What is the line of argument?
2015-06-19T03:50:24Z nyef: Essentially, the second bullet point there says so.
2015-06-19T03:50:41Z beach: Yes, I know.  But what is it that you are arguing?
2015-06-19T03:51:11Z beach: I mean, that's just stating fact.
2015-06-19T03:51:15Z nyef: That proclaiming the symbol special after a function that uses it has been minimally compiled must not affect any further use of the minimally-compiled function.
2015-06-19T03:51:29Z beach: Right.
2015-06-19T03:51:57Z nyef: Which means that the minimally-compiled output must not use the actual symbol for binding, it has to provide a substitute.
2015-06-19T03:52:27Z beach: Yes, that seems to be the case.
2015-06-19T03:52:30Z beach: Interesting.
2015-06-19T03:52:31Z Bike: how would anything tell that a symbol has been bound?
2015-06-19T03:52:34Z Bike: lexically, i mean.
2015-06-19T03:53:06Z nyef: Bike: Unportably. See cltl2.
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2015-06-19T03:53:27Z Bike: variable-information takes an environment, though. you can't get the runtime environment.
2015-06-19T03:54:14Z nyef: If you're at runtime, you're SOL: The symbol ISN'T bound, the variable that it NAMES is.
2015-06-19T03:54:38Z nyef: And, unlike a special variable, they aren't the same thing.
2015-06-19T03:55:03Z Bike: well, yeah, but aren't we talking about run time. if something's been minimally compiled it's not like you can compile it... again... something.
2015-06-19T03:55:55Z beach: Bike: That's exactly what drmeister is planning to do; compile it again.
2015-06-19T03:56:04Z nyef: Yes, that's the problem with naive minimal compilation: There are some rather surprising edge cases.
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2015-06-19T03:57:12Z Bike: i don't understand how this is coming up. the compiled code performs a lexical binding, which is probably totally different from a special binding. at least it's been in interpreters i've written.
2015-06-19T03:57:52Z beach: Bike: The problem is what representation an inline-able function should have in a FASL.
2015-06-19T03:57:59Z nyef: Naive minimal compilation would convert (let ((x 4) ... x ...) to basically itself, would it not?
2015-06-19T03:58:10Z Bike: sure, so what?
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2015-06-19T03:58:45Z Bike: oh, like if it's so minimal that it doesn't even have a lexical-let kind of thing happening.
2015-06-19T03:58:46Z nyef: So afterwards, you proclaim it special, define a symbol-macro, whatever. The semantics of the minimally-compiled function shouldn't change, but under the naive approach they will.
2015-06-19T03:58:51Z nyef: Yeah.
2015-06-19T03:58:51Z beach: Bike: You compile to FASL some function that could be inlined later.  You quit the system.  You re-enter the system.  You load the FASL.
2015-06-19T03:59:13Z beach: Bike: That is what he means by "naive minimal compilation".
2015-06-19T03:59:22Z Bike: that's pretty naive.
2015-06-19T03:59:49Z nyef: Note that LEXICAL-LET almost has to be a special form, as well...
2015-06-19T04:00:07Z drmeister: So what's the solution?
2015-06-19T04:00:32Z drmeister: If I compile it all the way to the AST then there are no problems.
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2015-06-19T04:00:43Z beach: Correct.
2015-06-19T04:00:49Z Bike: mark bindings as lexical in the minimal compilation output in some way. i imagine ASTs do.
2015-06-19T04:01:33Z beach: Bike: The AST has incorporated all information it needs from the compilation environment.  So the AST is safe to use.
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2015-06-19T04:01:45Z drmeister: I'll look into generating the AST and write that into the FASL.
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2015-06-19T04:02:29Z beach: drmeister: It could be done pretty much automatically, but there are a few things missing...
2015-06-19T04:02:29Z nyef: I'm probably not far from just calling that package-name segment / directory "rename-me" or "tbnl". /-:
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2015-06-19T04:02:42Z beach: nyef: Heh!
2015-06-19T04:02:49Z Bike: call it some easily remembered keyboard gibberish. asdf, say
2015-06-19T04:03:56Z beach: drmeister: The Cleavir compiler needs to call MAKE-LOAD-FORM which it currently doesn't do.
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2015-06-19T04:04:20Z beach: drmeister: And make-load-form must have methods specialized to the ASTs.
2015-06-19T04:04:46Z beach: drmeister: Both those should be fairly simple.
2015-06-19T04:05:00Z beach: drmeister: The second one should be simple, given the SAVE-INFO infrastructure.
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2015-06-19T04:06:03Z beach: It ought to be possible to define a single method on make-load-form, specialized to CLEAVIR-AST:AST which uses the SAVE-INFO infrastructure.
2015-06-19T04:07:36Z beach: Then, you should be able to just save a code snippet in the FASL that does the equivalent of (SETF (AST FUNCTION-NAME) AST).
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2015-06-19T04:10:16Z nyef: Oh yeah, that minimal-compilation lexical-binding thing? Also has to apply to the arguments to the function! The easiest thing is probably to "just" create uninterned symbols for all of the lexical variables, and supply the debugger with a map back to the "real" symbols.
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2015-06-19T04:13:49Z nyef: Skipping subjects entirely, again... I would like to posit that all graphics output devices are, in the end, raster devices.
2015-06-19T04:14:44Z Bike: psh, not my Vectrex.
2015-06-19T04:14:50Z drmeister: Beach - got it.
2015-06-19T04:15:05Z nyef: Bike: Tell that to the phosphor coating on the screen.
2015-06-19T04:15:36Z nyef: (See? In the end, it's a raster device.)
2015-06-19T04:15:59Z Bike: only in like, a quantum sense? and then not really. i don't get it.
2015-06-19T04:16:36Z nyef: You don't need to go down to the quantum level for this, merely the atomic level.
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2015-06-19T04:20:45Z nyef: The CRT works by deflecting an electron "beam" to target the phosphor in particular areas of the screen. Phosphor is a discrete (not continuous) substance. Therefore, in the end, you have a raster device, with a somewhat-cumbersome mechanism for setting the raster elements "on", and a property where the elements automatically clear to "off" over time.
2015-06-19T04:20:48Z beach: nyef: What are you planning to do with this information ("all graphics...")?
2015-06-19T04:21:13Z nyef: I don't know, it came to me while I was on my way to go get food.
2015-06-19T04:21:37Z Bike: i think that would lead to physics questions. wave particle duality and suchlike.
2015-06-19T04:22:22Z nyef: As a philosophical position, though, I think that it largely invalidates the parts of the CLIM geometry model that we'd already decided to get rid of.
2015-06-19T04:22:35Z Bike: ha.
2015-06-19T04:26:50Z nyef: Basically, you cannot answer the question "does this line fit entirely within this bounding box" because the line only exists in the same terms as the bounding box once it has been rendered with a particular line style.
2015-06-19T04:27:22Z Bike: the bounding box is raster?
2015-06-19T04:27:33Z beach: nyef: I think you are on the right track.
2015-06-19T04:27:38Z nyef: Bike: Yes, necessarily.
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2015-06-19T04:28:04Z nyef: The bounding box describes a region in the "graphics plane".
2015-06-19T04:28:27Z nyef: The line _cannot_ until and unless it is combined with rendering information.
2015-06-19T04:28:35Z Bike: yeah, i see.
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2015-06-19T04:29:40Z nyef: beach: I may not have mentioned this yet, but I started writing down explicit goals for the nq-clim project. One of which is the production of an NQ-CLIM II spec, defined as "what we should have built in the first place if we actually knew what we were doing."
2015-06-19T04:30:12Z beach: nyef: I think that's an excellent idea!  Also very ambitious.
2015-06-19T04:31:32Z Zhivago: nyef: Well, a phosphor screen with a mask is a raster device.
2015-06-19T04:32:07Z Zhivago: But without a mask, any discretion is below the threshold of naked eye detection, and so you could claim it continuous.
2015-06-19T04:34:44Z beach: nyef: You know, what you are doing might converge with CLIM3.
2015-06-19T04:35:00Z beach: nyef: ... simply because that was pretty much my idea as well.
2015-06-19T04:35:26Z nyef: Zhivago: You mean like possible electron energies in a metallic crystal? So many of them, so finely packed, that continuum methods are a practical way to look at them?
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2015-06-19T04:36:26Z nyef: beach: It might not be a bad thing if that happens, but we might also end up with a few places where we disagree about what the overall "right thing" is.
2015-06-19T04:36:40Z beach: nyef: Absolutely.
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2015-06-19T04:37:06Z beach: nyef: Now, that might still mean that we could factor some code.
2015-06-19T04:38:00Z Zhivago: Yeah, only bigger, since the human eye is pretty crap.
2015-06-19T04:39:23Z beach: nyef: I am not saying we should plan for that; only that it might happen.
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2015-06-19T04:39:51Z nyef: Right, that's about where I am as well. Don't plan for it, but leave the possibility open.
2015-06-19T04:41:30Z beach: It is good to have two independent thinkers here.  I am definitely going to follow what you come up with.
2015-06-19T04:41:33Z nyef: So, next hypothesis: The "design-based" graphics model is trying to be, for the most part, a VECTOR graphics model... And that the fundamental disconnects with the realization of this model in CLIM are attempting to treat it as an aspect of geometry and not binding the rendering instructions into the designs.
2015-06-19T04:42:32Z aeth: I'm curious. Why revive CLIM instead of writing something new?
2015-06-19T04:42:44Z nyef: As soon as you divorce designs from geometry, and bind the rendering instructions in, they become output records that are not bound to a particular stream!
2015-06-19T04:42:53Z beach: aeth: Designing something like that is VERY HARD.
2015-06-19T04:43:08Z beach: aeth: And Scott McKay has already done a lot of thinking for us.
2015-06-19T04:43:24Z aeth: wait, what does CLIM replace? GTK/Qt?
2015-06-19T04:43:25Z nyef: aeth: Why revive the wheel when you can make one with a different number of sides?
2015-06-19T04:43:27Z beach: aeth: It is probably a good plan to see what he got right and what he got wrong.
2015-06-19T04:43:51Z beach: aeth: CLIM is very different from every other GUI toolkit you can imagine.
2015-06-19T04:44:09Z aeth: beach: Possibly, possibly not. Depends on what you intend to do with the design. If you want something e.g. 3D-accelerated things might be very different on today's hardware idk
2015-06-19T04:44:25Z aeth: I haven't looked into what the modern Qt/GTK do with EGL, I just know they use it
2015-06-19T04:44:40Z beach: aeth: Do you know about presentations and presentation types?
2015-06-19T04:44:53Z beach: aeth: That's one of the fundamental ideas of CLIM.
2015-06-19T04:45:10Z beach: aeth: It makes it possible for the application code to be WAY more modular.
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2015-06-19T04:46:27Z beach: nyef: CLIM3/CLIMatis uses that idea, so it basically merges the concepts of design, sheet, and output record.
2015-06-19T04:46:28Z nyef: The first fundamental idea behind CLIM is to revert the inversion of control inherent in moving from stream-based I/O to an event-based GUI. The second fundamental idea is to attach type information and semantics to rendered output.
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2015-06-19T04:49:11Z nyef: beach: I'm not prepared to go that far, because while a "design" could be subject to an arbitrary rotation transformation, its bounding-box, and thus the output-record, should still be rectilinear, and I don't know that I can reconcile that entirely.
2015-06-19T04:50:28Z beach: nyef: I agree.  I should not have mention design in that context.
2015-06-19T04:50:39Z emaczen: How do I retrieve the standard-generic-function? I'm trying to remove a method and I have been able to retrieve a method but not the generic-function
2015-06-19T04:50:51Z beach: #'name
2015-06-19T04:51:41Z nyef: emaczen: A generic-function is still a function. Therefore, as beach said, #'name, unless you're doing something unusual and have an anonymous generic function.
2015-06-19T04:52:02Z nyef: (At which point, you have the function in hand ANYWAY.)
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2015-06-19T04:54:29Z emaczen: #<...> are supposed to be unreadable objects, correct?
2015-06-19T04:54:38Z nyef: Correct.
2015-06-19T04:55:14Z beach: emaczen: Some feedback on your part would be good, like "thanks" or "I have no idea what you are talking about".
2015-06-19T04:55:26Z emaczen: I just copied #<STANDARD-METHOD ...> as the second argument to remove-method and it returned the generic function...
2015-06-19T04:55:47Z emaczen: beach: Sorry, I was getting there.
2015-06-19T04:56:00Z emaczen: Thanks again though!
2015-06-19T04:56:41Z beach: I am not looking to be thanked.  Just to know whether the advice was helpful.
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2015-06-19T04:57:09Z nyef: Or even that it was heard!
2015-06-19T04:57:31Z beach: Yeah.
2015-06-19T04:57:36Z emaczen: Gotchya	
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2015-06-19T04:58:13Z nyef: "Copied" suggests kill/yank or copy/paste, and if you're using a system with any sort of "presentation" effect, that could end up splicing the actual original object in place.
2015-06-19T04:58:59Z emaczen: I'm using C-y inside the *slime-repl sbcl* buffer
2015-06-19T04:59:25Z nyef: Then you possibly have slime-presentations (or whatever it's called) enabled.
2015-06-19T04:59:25Z beach: emaczen: If it is colored red, it is not the printed representation of the object, but a "presentation".
2015-06-19T04:59:55Z emaczen: beach: Good to know!
2015-06-19T05:00:01Z beach: emaczen: SLIME then conspires with the underlying Common Lisp implementation to supply the actual object.
2015-06-19T05:00:13Z beach: emaczen: No reading takes place.
2015-06-19T05:00:27Z nyef: Not as good as "real" presentations, but a lot better than nothing.
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2015-06-19T05:00:47Z emaczen: Are there slime-tools that would remove a method for me by looking at the point?
2015-06-19T05:01:03Z Bike: inspector can add and remove methods, i think
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2015-06-19T05:01:36Z emaczen: Bike: Cool!
2015-06-19T05:01:57Z beach: It can.
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2015-06-19T05:02:20Z emaczen: I was ,restarting which might actually be faster than using (remove-method ...) -- what do you all do?
2015-06-19T05:03:11Z beach: emaczen: It depends on the time it takes to get to the analogous point.  When I do bootstrapping it takes 20 minutes to reach that point, so I try any other method first.
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2015-06-19T05:03:27Z beach: ... any method other than restarting.
2015-06-19T05:03:49Z nyef: I rarely keep long-running images these days, for whatever reason.
2015-06-19T05:04:36Z emaczen: beach: What do you mena by "boostrapping"?
2015-06-19T05:04:58Z beach: emaczen: Oh, it's SICL specific.  Trying to boot SICL CLOS inside a host Common Lisp system.
2015-06-19T05:05:36Z emaczen: You mean it takes 20 minutes to load all the SICL CLOS files?
2015-06-19T05:06:15Z beach: Yes, because they need to be loaded 4-5 times in different environments, and loading implies compiling them with a compiler that wasn't designed for speed.
2015-06-19T05:07:21Z emaczen: ahh
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2015-06-19T05:09:27Z emaczen: How do I remove a generic function (I want to change the lambda list to my generic function)
2015-06-19T05:09:42Z beach: (fmakunbound 'name)
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2015-06-19T05:11:26Z emaczen: Thanks
2015-06-19T05:11:44Z beach: You learn fast! :)
2015-06-19T05:12:06Z nyef adds "synonym" and "antonym" to the list of possible names for this #@$(* directory / package-name-component.
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2015-06-19T05:12:34Z nyef: (antonym, n: The opposite of the word you're trying to think of.)
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2015-06-19T05:25:54Z nyef: aeth: Going back to your question, CLIM has a particular interaction style to it that is rarely, if ever, seen in other systems. There's very little reason why one couldn't implement CLIM on top of GTK or Qt, or even "just" the upper layers of CLIM (giving that same sort of interaction style), but it's rarely (if ever) done.
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2015-06-19T05:26:45Z nyef: There's also a very lispy aspect to how development tends to run, especially if you have a "CLIM Listener" window.
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2015-06-19T05:45:33Z zacts: what is the common lisp social chat channel?
2015-06-19T05:45:37Z zacts: (for off-topic)
2015-06-19T05:46:21Z zacts: oh
2015-06-19T05:46:29Z pillton: #lispcafe I think.
2015-06-19T05:46:30Z zacts: lispcafe
2015-06-19T05:46:32Z zacts: yeah
2015-06-19T05:46:38Z zacts: cliki links this
2015-06-19T05:46:39Z zacts: :-)
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2015-06-19T06:04:41Z emaczen: I want to parse some lisp code and only keep certain forms starting with (name ...). I was under the impression that the read* functions were useful for this but I haven't found anything that will read forms that are separated by newlines. I do have some elisp code that I could convert for parsing...
2015-06-19T06:05:04Z emaczen: Are there builtin functions like read? that parse forms from strings?
2015-06-19T06:06:29Z pillton: clhs read-from-string
2015-06-19T06:06:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm
2015-06-19T06:07:01Z pillton: clhs with-input-from-string
2015-06-19T06:07:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_in_f.htm
2015-06-19T06:07:33Z emaczen: Thanks, I'll check it out further
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2015-06-19T06:08:26Z pillton: Filtering can be done with remove, remove-if and/or remove-if-not.
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2015-06-19T06:19:35Z emaczen: pillton: It looks like with-input-from-string will work.
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2015-06-19T06:22:38Z pillton: emaczen: I think you need to ask a different question as any of the READ functions will read lisp code. The new line character is regarded as white space (when using the standard readtable).
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2015-06-19T08:04:34Z dmiles_afk: does .cfasl have a mimetype?
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2015-06-19T08:30:31Z protist: Is there an idiomatic way to make a queue in Common Lisp?
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2015-06-19T08:30:36Z protist: or should I just implement one?
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2015-06-19T08:32:23Z H4ns: protist: http://www.cliki.net/data%20structure
2015-06-19T08:33:54Z Baggers: protist: also (ql:system-apropos "queue")
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2015-06-19T08:35:18Z protist: H4ns: Baggers: thank you :)
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2015-06-19T08:42:45Z protist: is there a function to do nothing?...like a `nop' or a `pass'?
2015-06-19T08:42:58Z H4ns: protist: cl:identity
2015-06-19T08:43:35Z protist: H4ns: I see what you are thinking...but I was thinking more along the lines of (values)
2015-06-19T08:43:48Z protist: H4ns: no argument...do nothing....don't care about return value
2015-06-19T08:44:30Z protist: H4ns: I guess I could just write nil or (values)...but I like things to read nicely
2015-06-19T08:44:50Z H4ns: protist: i like to return useful things
2015-06-19T08:45:18Z protist: H4ns: I'm implementing an algorithm I just thought up...I am doing a walk to label things...the side effects really are the goal here
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2015-06-19T08:49:00Z Baggers: protist: all functions return something, even if it's nil. you dont have to do anything with that result though
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2015-06-19T08:49:37Z Baggers: if called (lambda ()) will return nil, but it didnt 'do' anything per se
2015-06-19T08:49:45Z protist: Baggers: I guess even `values' with no args does
2015-06-19T08:50:10Z protist: Baggers: (null (values)) is true :p
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2015-06-19T08:50:30Z Baggers: yeah, and there's no need to use values unless you intend to return multiple values
2015-06-19T08:50:45Z protist: Baggers: thought I might could return none hehe
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2015-06-19T08:52:17Z protist: Baggers: looks like I do need to actually do something there anyways
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2015-06-19T08:55:47Z jdz: protist: (constantly nil)?
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2015-06-19T08:56:20Z protist: jdz: I wasn't trying to apply anything...I wanted no operation, just a placeholder in a special form
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2015-06-19T08:56:57Z protist: jdz: I had a macro built around if...and it isn't easy to avoid having a `true' expression
2015-06-19T08:57:39Z protist: jdz: http://pastebin.com/JgYJyZ9r
2015-06-19T08:58:25Z protist: jdz: meant for use with things like `gethash'
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2015-06-19T09:00:21Z jdz: protist: you can check if the optional parameter has been passed in with &optional (false-code nil false-code-supplied-p)
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2015-06-19T09:01:25Z jdz: writing macros like this might be OK as an exercise, but i'm pretty sure you'll find them not as useful as you think they'd be
2015-06-19T09:01:33Z protist: jdz: I want the macro to have the normal behavior of `if', where if only one expression is supplied, then it behaves like `when'
2015-06-19T09:01:44Z protist: jdz: I use this macro a lot :p
2015-06-19T09:02:00Z jdz: protist: as i said, you can check if the "else" code has been provided in the macro
2015-06-19T09:02:37Z protist: jdz: I'm just trying to describe where I can into an issue...the issue was I only cared to do anything if the thing /wasn't/ in the hash
2015-06-19T09:02:56Z protist: jdz: so I was trying to idiomatically denote "do nothing" in the true expression part
2015-06-19T09:03:30Z jdz: protist: so you see -- the macro actually is telling you that what you're doing is awkward and you should stop doing it :)
2015-06-19T09:03:30Z protist: jdz: surely I could return nil or something, but I didn't care about a return value at all
2015-06-19T09:03:49Z protist: jdz: turned out I did need a true expression anywho :p
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2015-06-19T09:04:29Z protist: jdz: yeah, the question remains as one to pontificate about....best way to denote "do nothing"
2015-06-19T09:04:46Z jdz: NIL
2015-06-19T09:05:00Z protist: jdz: a solid contender :)
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2015-06-19T09:22:57Z easye: Conceptual question on wildcards in pathnames:  does (PROBE-FILE "/tmp/*.txt") mean a) return the TRUENAME of the pathname whose NAME component is the #\* character if it exists or b) something involving pathnames containing a wildcard?
2015-06-19T09:23:21Z easye: (for which I can't really find a good meaning for b))
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2015-06-19T09:34:03Z edgar-rft: easye: PROBE-FILE will signal a file-error if its argument contains wildcards
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2015-06-19T09:37:34Z easye: edgar-rft: Does passing a string designator containing #\* count as containing wildcards?  How does one then PROBE-FILE a pathname containing an actual #\* character?
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2015-06-19T09:39:55Z edgar-rft: examine the list of pathnames returned by DIRECTORY, which can handle wildcards
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2015-06-19T09:40:43Z easye: edgar-rft: Is there a section in the CLHS which clarifies this point?
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2015-06-19T09:43:38Z easye: Or is the reference in CLHS that it always mentions whether a pathspec may contain wild components, which it does for DIRECTORY but not for PROBE-FILE?
2015-06-19T09:45:14Z edgar-rft: IMO the Common Lisp pathname system is a mess. The best explanation I know how to deal with files and filenames is in Practical Common Lisp, Chapter 15 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-portable-pathname-library.html
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2015-06-19T09:46:17Z easye: As an CL implementor (for ABCL) I don't really have the option.
2015-06-19T09:46:57Z easye: (the option of not trying to implement a certain behavior)
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2015-06-19T09:47:50Z easye: But, thanks, from your comments it seems clear that PROBE-FILE should always treat #\* characters not as wildcards, for which ABCL currently has problems.
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2015-06-19T09:51:38Z edgar-rft: SBCL throws a FILE-ERROR with your example from above (pathspec as a string with an asterisk) if that helps. I will search the Hyperspec if I can find something more useful.
2015-06-19T09:54:18Z easye: Thanks, but I think the point that DIRECTORY mentions that the pathspec can containt wildcards, and the PROBE-FILE doesn't, indicates the meaning.
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2015-06-19T09:59:02Z edgar-rft: The CLHS page about PROBE-FILE, under "Exceptional Situations", clearly says that PROBE-FILE shall signal a file-error if the pathspec contains wild components. But Section 19.1.1 says that "Common Lisp does not define any namestring syntax other than that for logical pathnames that would be guaranteed to be portable." what IMO means that it's implementation dependent wether an asterisk in a strin is a wild component or
2015-06-19T09:59:02Z edgar-rft: not.
2015-06-19T10:01:02Z easye: Well, when in doubt, I usually ape SBCL, so signaling a FILE-ERROR it will be.
2015-06-19T10:01:52Z easye: My further argument here is that PROBE-FILE for wildcards makes no sense, as
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2015-06-19T10:02:33Z easye: 1) PROBE-FILE needs to return a single TRUENNAME value for which wildcards for more than one matching file would preclude
2015-06-19T10:03:17Z easye: 2) for directories containing a finite number of elements, a wildcard for PROBE-FILE would always refer to files that don't exist.
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2015-06-19T10:07:55Z edgar-rft: Also the function name is PROBE-FILE what means "one specific single file", not PROBE-FILES
2015-06-19T10:08:06Z easye: Yep.
2015-06-19T10:08:35Z easye: Although it is DIRECTORY and not DIRECTORIES...
2015-06-19T10:09:12Z easye: But I suppose that just refers to "return the collection (directory) of objects referred to by the pathname designator"
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2015-06-19T10:17:38Z edgar-rft: More historic details can be found in CLtL2, Chapter 23.1.4 "Extended Wildcards" http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node207.html#SECTION002714000000000000000
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2015-06-19T10:52:40Z kami: Hello
2015-06-19T10:53:24Z kami: I vaguely remember some special var in slime/swank which allowed to redirect all output to the REPL.
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2015-06-19T10:53:58Z kami: I now have a situation where part of the output shows up in *inferior-lisp*.
2015-06-19T10:55:11Z edgar-rft: I think you mean this: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Global-IO-Redirection.html#Global-IO-Redirection
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2015-06-19T10:59:56Z kami: edgar-rft: thank you! I guess the 'situation' is a missing .swank.lisp but I guess I can work around that when starting swank.
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2015-06-19T11:45:13Z asdasd: @Scheme
2015-06-19T11:45:28Z asdasd: hi I wanted to write a code in Scheme that writes the square odd elements in list.For example (list 1 2 3 4 5) for this list it should write 225.For this purpose i write this code:
2015-06-19T11:45:50Z asdasd: (define (square x)(* x x)) (define (product-of-square-of-odd-elements sequence) (cond[(odd? (car sequence)) '() (product-of-square-of-odd-elements (cdr sequence))] [else ((square (car sequence)) (product-of-square-of-odd-elements (cdr sequence)))])) For run i write this (product-of-square-of-odd-elements (list 1 2 3 4 5))
2015-06-19T11:46:07Z ggole: asdasd: try #scheme, this is a Common Lisp channel
2015-06-19T11:47:15Z asdasd: https://paste.kde.org/p2blwrux2
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2015-06-19T11:47:30Z asdasd: i write the code here
2015-06-19T11:47:38Z asdasd: you can look
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2015-06-19T11:47:58Z asdasd:  For run i write this (product-of-square-of-odd-elements (list 1 2 3 4 5)) and i get error like this: car: contract violation expected: pair? given: '() What should i do to make this code to run properly?
2015-06-19T11:48:13Z dim: asdasd: is it Common Lisp code?
2015-06-19T11:48:28Z asdasd: scheme code
2015-06-19T11:49:28Z dim: so why are you asking on a Common Lisp IRC channel, wherein people only deal with Common Lisp code?
2015-06-19T11:50:25Z asdasd: kes ulan trası
2015-06-19T11:51:05Z asdasd [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (asdasd)
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2015-06-19T11:53:49Z d125q: Hello guys. Can anyone tell me why (let ((x 5)) (symbol-value 'x)) gives an error?
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2015-06-19T11:54:14Z ggole: d125q: presumably because x is not a special variable
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2015-06-19T11:55:54Z d125q: ggole: Does symbol-value not work with lexical bindings (I think that's the one let does)? Why is it so?
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2015-06-19T11:56:46Z ggole: First, let will make whatever kind of binding suitable for a variable is: if you don't explicitly mark a variable special, it will be lexical.
2015-06-19T11:56:46Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_5.htm <-- on the very bottom
2015-06-19T11:56:56Z skrue: d125q: take a quick look at http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_symb_5.htm
2015-06-19T11:57:26Z H4ns: that does not answer the question "why" it is so.  i understand why, but i find it rather hard to explain.
2015-06-19T11:57:29Z jackdaniel: maybe not that very, before footer
2015-06-19T11:57:30Z jackdaniel: ;D
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2015-06-19T11:58:17Z jackdaniel: hm, are lexical bindings symbols? symbol contains a lot of information, like package, value etc
2015-06-19T11:58:20Z ggole: d125q: if you (defvar x) before running that code, x will be special and the error will not be generated.
2015-06-19T11:58:34Z H4ns: jackdaniel: lexcial bindings are not symbols.
2015-06-19T11:59:51Z jackdaniel: does lexical bindings create symbols° that would be a proper question. if not, then there is no value place for symbol if it weren't created
2015-06-19T11:59:52Z jackdaniel: so symbol-value doesn't make much of sense
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2015-06-19T12:00:31Z H4ns: jackdaniel: a lexical binding creates the symbol at read time, but the symbol is not required at run time.
2015-06-19T12:00:33Z ggole: Lexical bindings aren't really related to symbols at all, except at the sexp level
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2015-06-19T12:05:14Z d125q: Thanks a lot for the explanations
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2015-06-19T12:27:37Z d125q: One more: can anyone point me to some good reference for the lambda symbol? I'm a bit confused. Why is it that ((lambda () 1)) evaluates successfully to 1?
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2015-06-19T12:28:47Z Baggers: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababd.htm
2015-06-19T12:30:00Z d125q: Baggers: So, what I wrote is a lambda form, and something like (+ 1 2) is a function form?
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2015-06-19T12:31:36Z Baggers: yup
2015-06-19T12:31:56Z oleo: fluffy fluffy
2015-06-19T12:31:58Z oleo: sup
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2015-06-19T12:32:39Z d125q: Baggers: Thanks!
2015-06-19T12:32:51Z Baggers: d125q: It's rare that you have to be that exact when talking about lisp though, except of course for specifics like this
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2015-06-19T13:26:27Z pjb: minion: memo for nyef: there are still a few vectorial displays, and also lazer projectors are vectorial.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khVGAOLTaTA
2015-06-19T13:26:27Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-06-19T13:28:12Z pjb: minion: memo for nyef: also plotters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIfoGmWgU5g and of course, 3D printers are essentially vector displays.
2015-06-19T13:28:12Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-06-19T13:39:31Z pjb: emaczen: there's also undefmethod. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/3N  and also in com.informatimago.tools.undefmethod (so you may get it from quicklisp).
2015-06-19T13:39:56Z kami: (alexandria:make-keyword "hello") returns :HELLO on alisp and :|heLLo| on sbcl
2015-06-19T13:40:24Z kami: does that mean that I have to take care of the current readtable-case?
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2015-06-19T13:42:39Z loz: kami: my version is (defun make-keyword (string) (check-type string string) (intern (string-upcase string) :keyword))
2015-06-19T13:43:51Z kami: loz: what if the readtablep-case is :downcase ?
2015-06-19T13:44:12Z loz: well
2015-06-19T13:44:20Z loz: everything will be bad then)
2015-06-19T13:44:53Z kami: :)
2015-06-19T13:45:05Z loz: kami: alexandria, btw, has
2015-06-19T13:45:05Z loz: (defun make-keyword (name)
2015-06-19T13:45:05Z loz:   "Interns the string designated by NAME in the KEYWORD package."
2015-06-19T13:45:05Z loz:   (intern (string name) :keyword))
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2015-06-19T13:46:13Z kami: loz: yes, that's what I was talking about "(alexandria:make-keyword "hello") returns ..."
2015-06-19T13:47:33Z loz: kami: checking case of readtable isn't hard at first sight
2015-06-19T13:47:57Z ggole: kami: if the string is known, you could use a symbol
2015-06-19T13:48:26Z loz: ggole: he could use a keyword directly if symbol is known)
2015-06-19T13:48:35Z ggole: Uh
2015-06-19T13:48:39Z ggole: Get out of here with your logic!
2015-06-19T13:49:17Z kami: ggole, loz: if I knew the string, I would have used a symbol :)
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2015-06-19T13:50:13Z loz: thats too complicated
2015-06-19T13:50:19Z loz: keep it simple)
2015-06-19T13:50:43Z loz: kami: what is the purpose?
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2015-06-19T13:51:55Z kami: I'm converting JSON input where an attribute contains sth like a 'message type' and would like to write handler methods which specialise on that message type
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2015-06-19T13:52:40Z loz: can't you specialize on strings?
2015-06-19T13:52:52Z kami: loz: no
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2015-06-19T13:56:00Z loz: kami: i suppose you can write something like
2015-06-19T13:56:01Z loz: (defvar *message-type-1* (make-keyword "my-message-type1"))
2015-06-19T13:56:01Z loz: and then use (eql type *message-type-1*)
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2015-06-19T13:56:58Z loz: then it will be ok, if readtable-case is the same at these parts of program
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2015-06-19T14:01:05Z pjb: protist: (if c a nil) and (if c a) already behave exactly like (when c a).
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2015-06-19T14:07:44Z kami: loz: this solves my problem http://paste.lisp.org/+37TJ, but I cannot judge whether it's generalisable
2015-06-19T14:08:16Z pjb: edgar-rft: notice, if instead of using a physical namestring (whose semantics is entirely left to the implementation), you used logical pathnames, then you'd realize that there is no way to have a file with a #\* in its logical name.
2015-06-19T14:10:46Z loz: kami: i think you spend enough time for this and should move to the next item)
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2015-06-19T14:11:56Z loz: like you will have a little progress if you think about everything that can go wrong
2015-06-19T14:12:20Z kami: loz: you mean 'worse is better'?
2015-06-19T14:12:56Z loz: you always can return and fix problems
2015-06-19T14:13:12Z loz: but i prefer to do it when main goal is achieved)
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2015-06-19T14:15:47Z pjb: kami: that means you'd better use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:make-keyword (and distribute your software under AGPL3 ;-)).
2015-06-19T14:16:26Z kami checks
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2015-06-19T14:17:12Z loz: pjb: would be nice to see a source code on your packages web pages
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2015-06-19T14:17:50Z edgar-rft: pjb: yes, but easye's question was if there's defined what should happen with asterisks in namestings, not logical pathnames, and my conclusion was that parsing of namestrings is implementation dependent and not ANSI defined.
2015-06-19T14:17:54Z pjb: loz: there must be an old version there, but nowadays we use git: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master
2015-06-19T14:18:10Z pjb: edgar-rft: definitely.
2015-06-19T14:18:21Z loz: pjb: we?
2015-06-19T14:18:31Z pjb: everybody likes github! :-)
2015-06-19T14:19:33Z loz: just though maybe you have a TEAM of lispers)
2015-06-19T14:20:26Z dwrngr: those are banned
2015-06-19T14:21:13Z pjb: loz: also, of course, if you ql:quickload it, you can just M-. on the name of the operator.
2015-06-19T14:21:17Z kami: pjb: cesarum.utility is not on QL?
2015-06-19T14:21:21Z gendl: Hi, what are most people using for XML parsing these days?
2015-06-19T14:21:22Z loz: pjb: but your implementation similar to alexandria
2015-06-19T14:21:22Z pjb: It is.
2015-06-19T14:21:39Z pjb: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum)
2015-06-19T14:21:50Z kami: ah
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2015-06-19T14:24:52Z kami: pjb: looking at the code, I think I understand the "distribute ... under AGPL3  ;-))" part
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2015-06-19T14:25:38Z pjb: kami: Can you elaborate?
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2015-06-19T14:27:16Z kami: pjb: well, it's not different enough for trading in Public Domain for AGPL3
2015-06-19T14:27:17Z kami: :)
2015-06-19T14:27:44Z pjb: Well public domain doesn't remove the copyright, and is just forbidden in some jurisdictions.
2015-06-19T14:28:24Z kami: yes
2015-06-19T14:28:36Z pjb: ie. in some jurisdictions, notably mine, you cannot release under public domain, you get automatic copyright protection.  You have to wait 70 years after your death for a public domain release.
2015-06-19T14:28:43Z pjb: So unless you give me a time machine…
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2015-06-19T14:31:16Z loz: time machine is like a solution to every problem
2015-06-19T14:31:24Z Shinmera: gendl: I'm using Plump.
2015-06-19T14:31:54Z loz: cause he wrote it :D
2015-06-19T14:32:46Z Shinmera: gendl: Can't speak for 'most people' though for sure. CXML is still popular, I think.
2015-06-19T14:33:29Z loz: in my project i got plump, cxml and xmls through dependencies
2015-06-19T14:34:14Z loz: and i'm not sure there aren't more xml libs)
2015-06-19T14:35:08Z dlowe: xmls really needs to be struck from the record.
2015-06-19T14:35:18Z dlowe: if you want that functionality, cxml has an xmls-builder
2015-06-19T14:35:31Z dlowe: but there's a number of things xmls doesn't handle well
2015-06-19T14:35:46Z gendl: thanks, trying CXML for starters, will have a look at Plump for sure.
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2015-06-19T14:36:19Z Shinmera: plump is more aimed at leniency and such, so if you need a schema check or something similar, CXML should have that for you.
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2015-06-19T14:37:26Z dlowe: I started using plump for html scraping (thanks, Shinmera!)
2015-06-19T14:37:36Z Shinmera: That's what it was made for!
2015-06-19T14:40:16Z protist: pjb: yes....I was working with a different control structure....http://pastebin.com/JgYJyZ9r ....I wanted to only do something when (not success)...but I only have the if form, and I can't just `not' the second return value....so I only wanted the failure case...and was looking for a cleaner thing to put as an expression that does nothing
2015-06-19T14:45:32Z pjb: protist: the thing is that when is a macro that expands, guess to what? (macroexpand-1 '(when c a b c)) --> (IF C (PROGN A B C))  and if itself returns NIL if there's no else branch, so (if a b) and (if a b nil) compile to the same thing.
2015-06-19T14:45:57Z pjb: which is why when you write your own macros, you can use (if a b nil) with nil being the default parameter value for else.
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2015-06-19T15:00:23Z XachX: Shinmera: I have some bad html that confuses plump/clss a little.
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2015-06-19T15:00:50Z XachX: Shinmera: there's a page with an unclosed anchor that renders "fine" in a browser but the structure from plump is a bit messy
2015-06-19T15:01:39Z XachX: I am scraping http://www.thehumblefarmer.com/MainePrivateRadio.html for links to .mp3 files to construct a podcast.
2015-06-19T15:02:54Z Shinmera: Oh dear.
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2015-06-19T15:04:13Z Shinmera: XachX: Can you filter out a specific section that is giving you problems?
2015-06-19T15:04:44Z Shinmera: The entire thing seems very... illegal, so I'm not sure how it should render it properly or what exactly the failure point is.
2015-06-19T15:06:28Z Shinmera: Hrm
2015-06-19T15:06:48Z Shinmera: Well, the issue is that in most of the cases Plump can't really know what the right choice of action is.
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2015-06-19T15:07:50Z Shinmera: All of these open center tags might be closed at some point, but they never are. So what happens is that Plump keeps on going as long as it can, which pushes the closing tags towards the end of the document and creates a much more nested hierarchy than intended.
2015-06-19T15:07:56Z XachX: I think I'll be able to heuristically get what I need
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2015-06-19T15:08:27Z XachX: This is for an elderly friend who is not going to learn proper HTML in his lifetime.
2015-06-19T15:08:45Z Shinmera: HTML5 specifies how to deal with these problems, but it requires being tag-gnostic, which is a complexity I don't want to introduce.
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2015-06-19T15:10:20Z Shinmera: At least Plump doesn't completely ignore unexpected closing tags anymore like it used to, so the result isn't as bad as it could be.
2015-06-19T15:10:52Z XachX: Plump at least parses it in a fraction of a second. Closure HTML takes several seconds.
2015-06-19T15:11:04Z Shinmera: I'm glad to hear that! :)
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2015-06-19T15:11:29Z Shinmera: Last I did benchmarks on plump I was very disappointed to find that CHTML was a bit faster to parse my GitHub profile page than Plump.
2015-06-19T15:11:45Z Shinmera: I guess the speed varies greatly depending on what kind of page it is.
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2015-06-19T15:12:00Z Shinmera: Still, I wish I had the time to make Plump able to beat CHTML in all cases.
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2015-06-19T15:53:40Z freedork: what would be an elegant way to transform (a b c d ef) into ((a b) (c d) (e f))?
2015-06-19T15:54:16Z Bike: (loop for (x y) on list by #'cddr collecting (list x y))?
2015-06-19T15:54:46Z Bike: assuming you mean e f, not ef
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2015-06-19T15:56:30Z freedork: thanks Bike, I guess time to study loop now for real
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2015-06-19T16:16:55Z theos: loop is a language
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2015-06-19T16:25:20Z theos: anyone heard of david cope?
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2015-06-19T16:30:16Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-06-19T16:31:09Z fe[nl]ix: salut beach :)
2015-06-19T16:31:53Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Hey!  What (Common Lisp-related things) are you working on these days?
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2015-06-19T16:46:48Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-19T16:48:54Z beach: nyef: How is NQ-CLIM going?
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2015-06-19T16:50:39Z beach feels ignored.
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2015-06-19T16:52:28Z nyef: beach: Going slowly, but still going.
2015-06-19T16:53:02Z beach: Good, good!
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2015-06-19T16:53:39Z nyef: I'm starting to think that "clim-sys" might be the best option for that directory / chunk of package name.
2015-06-19T16:54:18Z beach: Sounds good to me.
2015-06-19T16:54:57Z Bike: theos: yeah, why?
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2015-06-19T18:41:58Z aeth: Is there a working CLIM on quicklisp or is(/are) the CLIM(s) there buggy/old?
2015-06-19T18:42:30Z XachX: all clims are old. mcclim is old and buggy.
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2015-06-19T18:43:21Z nyef: Also, the CLIM II spec isn't even self-consistent.
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2015-06-19T18:48:25Z aeth: Does emacs/slime indent all macros' &body specially or is it a coincidence that I've noticed this pattern and it does it based on function/macro names or something?
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2015-06-19T18:48:45Z aeth: i.e. 2 spaces rather than 4
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2015-06-19T18:49:20Z brpocock: AFAIK, that is the only distinction between &body and &rest (indentation)
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2015-06-19T18:49:59Z aeth: So if I want that indentation I should write a macro even if it's just a thin wrapper over a function?
2015-06-19T18:51:15Z brpocock: um … no?
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2015-06-19T18:51:52Z aeth: Currently it's a function that must take in a quasi-quoted list so I think I might have poorly half-reimplemented macros
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2015-06-19T18:52:06Z brpocock: well, maybe then.
2015-06-19T18:52:29Z brpocock: except a macro will run at compile-time.
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2015-06-19T18:55:37Z aeth: Honestly, idk what I was thinking when I wrote this function last year.
2015-06-19T18:56:18Z oleo: document it....
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2015-06-19T18:56:47Z aeth: Fortunately, thanks to #lisp, it will look like I always knew what I was doing once I put it on Github in a fresh repo :-p
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2015-06-19T19:00:25Z aeth: "Macrosoft" would be the perfect name for a Lisp company :-p
2015-06-19T19:00:58Z oleo: nawww, i find "Metacorp" much much betta!
2015-06-19T19:01:17Z oleo: reminds me of Psicorp
2015-06-19T19:01:18Z oleo: lol
2015-06-19T19:02:26Z aeth: btw, if someone ever makes a new lisp machine they need to make a Low-Level Lisp-Like Language (LLLLL) imo
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2015-06-19T19:34:11Z Guest60943: is there a proper way to copy files in lisp?
2015-06-19T19:34:16Z Guest60943 is now known as dennis_
2015-06-19T19:34:24Z dennis_: or move them?
2015-06-19T19:35:41Z Bike: load?
2015-06-19T19:35:57Z dennis_: no
2015-06-19T19:36:08Z dennis_: like I have a file "/tmp/x.x"
2015-06-19T19:36:19Z dennis_: and I want to move it to "/srv/x.x"
2015-06-19T19:36:23Z dennis_: how would I do this?
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2015-06-19T19:36:46Z Bike: Oh. alexandria has copy-file.
2015-06-19T19:37:25Z dennis_: thanks
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2015-06-19T19:39:17Z nyef: Isn't that a RENAME-FILE operation?
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2015-06-19T19:39:46Z Bike: oops.
2015-06-19T19:40:39Z tokenrove: dennis_: i am probably oblivious to portable ways to do this, but i would usually use something like sb-posix:rename; there are also libraries like osicat, cl-fad, probably many others, that provide similar functionality
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2015-06-19T19:41:18Z aeth: I wonder how much of sh, coreutils, etc., already exists in native Common Lisp as Common Lisp libraries, just not together and not with a shell-like syntax.
2015-06-19T19:41:40Z brpocock: CL:rename-file ?
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2015-06-19T19:44:02Z aeth: cd, ls, cp, mv, cat, ps, rm, head, tail, >, >>, etc. Afaik, something similar to eshell in emacs should be possible, right?
2015-06-19T19:44:26Z aeth: I guess some libraries would be needed to run on more than one Lisp
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2015-06-19T19:46:34Z dennis_: also
2015-06-19T19:46:46Z dennis_: has anyone ever dealt with image uploading in hunchentoot?
2015-06-19T19:47:36Z williamyao: dennis_: rename-file
2015-06-19T19:47:55Z williamyao: Ah, too late.
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2015-06-19T20:11:05Z puchacz: hi, have we got ispell wrapper?
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2015-06-19T20:11:28Z puchacz: hard to google as it tries words with similar spelling, heh
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2015-06-19T20:15:34Z PuercoPop: aeth: if you want to call shell utilities you can use inferior-shell
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2015-06-19T20:29:41Z brpocock: QL has hspell, spellcheck; no opinions on either from me, though.
2015-06-19T20:29:58Z puchacz: QL?
2015-06-19T20:30:07Z brpocock: Quicklisp
2015-06-19T20:30:08Z Bike: quicklisp
2015-06-19T20:30:12Z puchacz: ah
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2015-06-19T20:32:16Z puchacz: indeed: (ql:system-apropos "spell")
2015-06-19T20:32:21Z puchacz: easy :-)
2015-06-19T20:32:23Z puchacz: thanks
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2015-06-19T20:36:03Z aeth: PuercoPop: But what about a system that might not have a shell installed?
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2015-06-19T20:38:28Z brpocock: You looking at targeting your own kernel, for real? Or something like a Lisp image running under SystemD on a “bare” box?
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2015-06-19T20:39:43Z aeth: I wonder how much work a fake kernel (can only run in QEMU) requires.
2015-06-19T20:40:16Z Bike: they do it in undergraduate classes, so it's probably not that bad.
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2015-06-19T20:41:09Z aeth: It would be an interesting experiment to create a fake lispm.
2015-06-19T20:41:47Z brpocock: Might as well (initially, at least) take a Linux kernel + SystemD to provide sane filesystem, process controls, hardware inits, et al.
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2015-06-19T20:42:22Z aeth: brpocock: Well the idea would be to layer it so that it can run on either.
2015-06-19T20:43:06Z brpocock: Personally, I'd thought of such a thing for a headless server to run in a lightweight container (with only its own forked SystemD and sharing the kernel).
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2015-06-19T20:43:33Z aeth: The lisp all the way down thing would just be an experiment, any practical use would probably be better run natively on the Linux kernel to e.g. run CFFI on certain libraries
2015-06-19T20:43:36Z brpocock: (that server program presently requires a bit more infrastructure to support it, though.)
2015-06-19T20:44:22Z aeth: Write a VM program in Lisp, and then port that VM to the new kernel and you could even do that part in Lisp :-P
2015-06-19T20:44:55Z cluck: aeth: why create a fake one when you can contribute to a real one like mezzano
2015-06-19T20:45:21Z dlowe: The nice thing about writing your own kernel is that it will be immune to all existing exploits
2015-06-19T20:45:39Z aeth: cluck: To see how it works?
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2015-06-19T20:45:50Z pjb: Take movitz, write a kernel.
2015-06-19T20:45:59Z aeth: Movitz?
2015-06-19T20:46:19Z cluck: another bare metal lisp kernel
2015-06-19T20:46:26Z brpocock: My more practical (?) wish list is a reasonably complete ELisp compiler or interpreter in CL (so we can port Emacs and keep our toys).
2015-06-19T20:46:54Z cluck: aeth: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/movitz/
2015-06-19T20:47:28Z aeth: brpocock: I think if someone were to write a much better emacs clone in CL, then the elisp compatability would probably follow by someone else sufficiently motivated to port elisp programs they usr
2015-06-19T20:47:32Z aeth: *use
2015-06-19T20:48:02Z aeth: brpocock: So the editor would probably come first
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2015-06-19T20:48:29Z fourier`: aeth: isn't there a CliMacs around? Or Hemlock?
2015-06-19T20:48:36Z brpocock: There are a few, but they're so restrictive I can't begin to start fixing them for my own use.
2015-06-19T20:48:46Z brpocock: Yeah, both of those.
2015-06-19T20:49:12Z aeth: No elisp port to those afaik so I guess they weren't good enough
2015-06-19T20:49:12Z cluck: aeth: climacs is proof that approach doesn't work
2015-06-19T20:50:29Z aeth: All you really need to port/clone are SLIME and paredit.
2015-06-19T20:50:29Z zacts: must I rebuild all of my quicklisp when updating to a newer SBCL?
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2015-06-19T20:50:50Z aeth: Specialize in doing one language well, better than emacs can
2015-06-19T20:50:56Z Shinmera: Yes. FASLs are not reusable between SBCL versions
2015-06-19T20:50:56Z brpocock: I'm one of those pains who have a 120k Emacs init script.
2015-06-19T20:51:08Z zacts: ok
2015-06-19T20:51:09Z Shinmera: And even if they were, ASDF makes a new directory for each lisp version and type.
2015-06-19T20:51:19Z zacts: so I must rebuild quicklisp?
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2015-06-19T20:51:29Z Shinmera: That depends on what you mean.
2015-06-19T20:51:35Z zacts: how can I rebuild all of my quicklisp efficiently?
2015-06-19T20:51:36Z zacts: oh
2015-06-19T20:51:40Z aeth: One problem is you'd probably want a different kind of API than the one in emacs.
2015-06-19T20:51:51Z zacts: well I have the quicklisp modules for slime, clx, and cl-ppcre
2015-06-19T20:52:05Z zacts: I want to update from the debian 8.0 jessie SBCL to the latest SBCL
2015-06-19T20:52:11Z Shinmera: You mean "systems"
2015-06-19T20:52:12Z zacts: I've already built my quicklisp modules
2015-06-19T20:52:19Z XachX: zacts: It will just happen on demand as needed.
2015-06-19T20:52:20Z pjb: cluck: movitz is not a bare metal kernel.  It's a bare metal CL implementation that you can use to write a kernel.
2015-06-19T20:52:31Z brpocock: I'd love to have the UI based upon something more like CSS. Maybe atop Clutter or WebKit or something, I dunno.
2015-06-19T20:52:32Z zacts: XachX: I don't totally understand
2015-06-19T20:52:40Z Bike: Just load them in the new sbcl.
2015-06-19T20:52:40Z zacts: XachX: quicklisp will auto-rebuild on demand?
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2015-06-19T20:52:51Z Bike: asdf will
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2015-06-19T20:52:55Z XachX: zacts: ASDF will.
2015-06-19T20:53:02Z aeth: pjb: they really should've called it Low-Level Lisp-Like Language. They missed a golden opportunity
2015-06-19T20:53:10Z zacts: Bike: if I have quicklisp autoloaded from my .sbclrc or whatever, do I even need to do anything?
2015-06-19T20:53:25Z Bike: not really, no, they'll just be built when you first load them in the new sbcl
2015-06-19T20:53:28Z zacts: except just run the newer sbcl via 'bash-$ sbcl'
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2015-06-19T20:53:31Z zacts: ok cool
2015-06-19T20:53:32Z zacts: thanks
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2015-06-19T20:53:46Z Bike: and it's only three systems, so that'll take, like, thirty seconds.
2015-06-19T20:55:39Z zacts: is there a shasum for the official SBCL binary tarballs?
2015-06-19T20:56:19Z zacts: (and even gpg signed would be nice)
2015-06-19T20:56:24Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2015-06-19T20:56:50Z zacts: I see Maintainer Public Keys
2015-06-19T20:56:53Z zacts: hm...
2015-06-19T20:58:07Z zacts: alright
2015-06-19T20:58:10Z zacts: I think I found it
2015-06-19T20:58:18Z zacts: I'm just not used to navigating sourceforge
2015-06-19T20:58:25Z Shinmera: Is anyone really?
2015-06-19T20:59:12Z zacts: Shinmera: heh, I don't think so
2015-06-19T20:59:41Z zacts: hm... yeah I'm not seeing any shasums
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2015-06-19T21:00:40Z zacts: alright I found it
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2015-06-19T21:00:53Z zacts: sbcl-1.2.12-crhodes.asc
2015-06-19T21:01:07Z zacts: ^ this file seems to contain the gpg signatures for the source and linux-binary tarballs
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2015-06-19T21:32:43Z cluck: pjb: hey, i've had machines with kernels that did less than movitz, don't make me comb my beard and fling the cruft your way
2015-06-19T21:32:49Z cluck: :)
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2015-06-19T21:36:40Z Bike: zacts: you might ask #sbcl
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2015-06-19T21:59:42Z brpocock: so, I were curious, but: anybody have any hints on/exp. with Mezzano? Is froggey “live”?
2015-06-19T21:59:44Z warex: some CoreNLP in lisp?
2015-06-19T22:02:34Z pjb: brpocock: Several people could boot it and try it out.  I've not had time to further work on it.
2015-06-19T22:02:48Z pjb: AFAIK froggey is still alive.
2015-06-19T22:03:42Z brpocock: I got so far as SYS.INT> but it seems to be not loading many/most of the systems that appear to have been written to the image. I haven't prodded much.
2015-06-19T22:04:09Z brpocock: Meant “live” in the “online/listening” sense :-) As I presume that's the same froggey lurking here.
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2015-06-19T22:04:54Z pjb: yes, he is.
2015-06-19T22:05:08Z pjb: sys.int> means you still needs to do some work.  Check the irc logs.
2015-06-19T22:05:20Z pjb: minion: logs
2015-06-19T22:05:20Z minion: logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000)
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2015-06-19T22:06:33Z zacts: Bike: what was that "you might ask #sbcl"?
2015-06-19T22:06:37Z zacts: I can't remember the context
2015-06-19T22:07:00Z Bike: zacts: about checksums for sbcl releases
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2015-06-19T22:08:35Z froggey: brpocock: yes, I'm here
2015-06-19T22:09:01Z zacts: oh
2015-06-19T22:09:02Z zacts: I see
2015-06-19T22:09:03Z zacts: ok
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2015-06-19T22:09:07Z zacts: I figured it out though
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2015-06-19T22:09:26Z zacts: the .asc file on the sourceforge downloads file list has them
2015-06-19T22:09:40Z zacts: and this file is gpg signed by the maintainer
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2015-06-19T22:10:04Z brpocock: Very impressive from what I can see, just trying to figure out where to start troubleshooting. I think all the files are present and the build looks happy, but I get about 1/2 grey text “window” REPL on non-refreshing black border (mouse leaves trails) and no obvious (to me) error nor log?
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2015-06-19T22:11:31Z froggey: check the serial port. if you're using qemu you can pass -serial stdio, if you're using virtualbox you can make it write to a file via the settings menu
2015-06-19T22:11:37Z brpocock: I have a virtio serial port set in QEmu (under virt-manager) but it seems silent?
2015-06-19T22:12:15Z froggey: it expects a normal pc serial port, not a virtio one
2015-06-19T22:12:24Z brpocock: ah mea culpa
2015-06-19T22:12:30Z froggey: if the blue light is on (top-left), then it's still working/compiling
2015-06-19T22:12:45Z brpocock: nil there. Cyan if I shake the mouse hard :-)
2015-06-19T22:13:16Z froggey: that's the one
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2015-06-19T22:13:31Z akkad tries to remember if it was PCL that covered editing binaries in CL
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2015-06-19T22:13:51Z Bike: practical common lisp? it had stuff about reading/writing binary file formats, yeah
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2015-06-19T22:15:11Z brpocock: Perhaps it was merely cross at not having the serial port? It boots much slower having added one :-) And I get many malloc logging
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2015-06-19T22:17:51Z froggey: probably not. emulated serial ports are surprisingly slow to access
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2015-06-19T22:22:56Z brpocock: I'm thinking it may be DHCP'ing a somewhat surprising IP address, so perhaps it wasn't finding the file-server. Edited ipl, built image… and …
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2015-06-19T22:23:41Z brpocock: This box has a few virtual hosts/containers on it, so suprising dhcp interactions aren't really so surprising.
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2015-06-19T22:27:14Z froggey: brpocock: there's no DHCP support yet, you might have to edit net/network-setup.lisp to give it the right local IP/network. it's set up to work with qemu/virtualbox's default usermode/nat network
2015-06-19T22:27:54Z froggey: and the network stack doesn't do very well when bridged to a real network (it works, but only sometimes)
2015-06-19T22:28:19Z brpocock: Ah I see, there we have it.
2015-06-19T22:28:37Z brpocock: Unfortunately my work uses 10/8 so there's the rub. Easily cured.
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2015-06-19T22:35:13Z brpocock: I must dodge AFK for a while, sadly, real life and all, but I will definitely be giving this a bit more looking-over :-) Very impressive froggey.
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