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2015-06-18T00:01:17Z aeth: Bike: yes
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2015-06-18T00:03:24Z Bike: yeah, that's not actually like defun. it's just syntactic sugar.
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2015-06-18T00:09:53Z cheryllium: Bike: According to internet, vanadium has a function similar to insulin
2015-06-18T00:10:26Z cheryllium: Bike: http://www.dcnutrition.com/Minerals/detail.cfm?RecordNumber=48
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2015-06-18T00:10:55Z dennis_: dennis
2015-06-18T00:10:58Z dennis_: dennis_
2015-06-18T00:11:05Z dennis_: so sorry
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2015-06-18T00:11:12Z dennis_: but can someone quicky hilight me?
2015-06-18T00:11:14Z aeth: I decided to repeatedly TIME three ways to merge a list of strings. (reduce (lambda (x y) (concatenate 'string x y)) strings) seems to be the fastest (6k to 14k processor cycles) followed closely by format using the string "~{~A~}" (14k to 16k) followed by apply (26k to 54k)
2015-06-18T00:11:25Z cheryllium: dennis_ ?
2015-06-18T00:11:28Z dennis_: thx
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2015-06-18T00:12:40Z Bike: the amount of caveats in the lower section is key, there
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2015-06-18T00:45:01Z aeth: Is using read-sequence like this to read in a file a bad idea? http://paste.lisp.org/display/150002
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2015-06-18T00:58:35Z spyrosoft: Is there a way to format something that has been through (parse-namestring) back into a string?
2015-06-18T00:58:55Z spyrosoft: Like #P"/tmp/example.txt"
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2015-06-18T01:00:30Z Bike: clhs namestring
2015-06-18T01:00:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm
2015-06-18T01:00:31Z Bike: i think.
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2015-06-18T01:02:57Z spyrosoft: That's it. Thank you, Bike.
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2015-06-18T03:31:26Z aeth: The fastest way to read an s-expression in a file seems to be just READ on a file that only contains one top-level s-expression (sort of like how everything's in <html></html> in HTML, I guess). This wouldn't work for logs, though. (log (log-line ...) ...) won't work because logs append (or at least should, afaik)
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2015-06-18T03:32:56Z Zhivago: Consider concatenated streams.
2015-06-18T03:33:44Z Zhivago: You should be able to effectively wrap your log file in parentheses using a pair of string streams around the log file stream.
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2015-06-18T03:34:48Z akkad: does Franz have a true capi equivalent?
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2015-06-18T03:50:12Z pillton: Zhivago: Very clever. I have never thought of doing that.
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2015-06-18T04:44:32Z emaczen: There is slime-browse-classes, but what about browsing methods specialized on a combination of classes?
2015-06-18T04:44:32Z emaczen:  
2015-06-18T04:45:57Z pillton: Wow. That generic function must have a lot of methods.
2015-06-18T04:47:16Z emaczen: I really just want to see what methods belong to which classes, where "belong" means is specialized on.
2015-06-18T04:47:36Z Bike: For one generic function?
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2015-06-18T04:48:11Z pillton: clhs compute-applicable-methods
2015-06-18T04:48:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comput.htm
2015-06-18T04:48:18Z emaczen: For one class, I want to see all the methods that specializes on that class for at least one of it's arguments
2015-06-18T04:48:31Z Bike: well then you have to iterate over all generic functions that exist.
2015-06-18T04:49:20Z emaczen: Bike: With closer-mop?
2015-06-18T04:49:44Z Bike: closer-mop doesn't have a function that does that, as far as i know
2015-06-18T04:49:51Z Bike: it'd be more like do-all-symbols
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2015-06-18T05:03:43Z scymtym: emaczen: you can slime-inspect the class. the inspector has a section called "It is used as a direct specializer in the following methods:"
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2015-06-18T05:04:29Z emaczen: scymtym: can you give an example of inspecting a class?
2015-06-18T05:04:46Z scymtym: M-x slime-inspect RET (find-class 'NAME-OF-YOUR-CLASS) RET
2015-06-18T05:05:00Z emaczen: scymtym: Thanks!
2015-06-18T05:05:05Z scymtym: np
2015-06-18T05:05:58Z emaczen: scymtym: This is awesome@
2015-06-18T05:06:01Z emaczen: ! :D
2015-06-18T05:06:08Z scymtym: :)
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2015-06-18T06:07:20Z emaczen: Is there free lisp CAD software? I know autolisp is the extension language for AutoCAD which is not free.
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2015-06-18T06:19:32Z Adlai: there's Gendl, not sure to what degree that fits your "free"dom
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2015-06-18T06:21:01Z akkad: all software is free if you know how
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2015-06-18T06:24:36Z emaczen: Adlai: Thanks, this is what I saw a few months back...
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2015-06-18T06:27:23Z JuanDaugherty: boy I hope akkad comes back so I can ask how that works with some of my faves
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2015-06-18T06:34:20Z Shinmera: aeth: You should use something like trivial-benchmark to test things like that.
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2015-06-18T06:56:03Z knobo1: Is it possible to replace current window manager with stumpwm on the fly?
2015-06-18T06:56:13Z knobo1: Like many other window managers have the --replace option
2015-06-18T06:56:59Z mdln: I usually just switch to a tty and hard purge, but I'm an angry person ;_;
2015-06-18T06:58:50Z knobo1: I realize this is not the right channel. I'll take it over to #stumpwm. Sorry.
2015-06-18T07:02:08Z JuanDaugherty: well it is a lisp app
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2015-06-18T07:04:33Z JuanDaugherty: looks like xmonad for cl
2015-06-18T07:04:53Z JuanDaugherty: s/for/in/
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2015-06-18T09:48:50Z mea-culpa: is there the hyperspec in the texinfo format somewhere?
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2015-06-18T09:51:26Z pjb: mea-culpa: yes, distributed with gcl.
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2015-06-18T09:53:17Z edgar-rft: mea-culpa: see http://users-phys.au.dk/harder/dpans.html
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2015-06-18T12:54:38Z Shinmera: And another GUI problem solved. https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/611517200613134336
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2015-06-18T13:04:16Z synchromesh: Shinmera: Nice! You sorted the threading issue(s), then.
2015-06-18T13:04:41Z Shinmera: For SBCL and CCL at least, yes.
2015-06-18T13:04:53Z Shinmera: Other implementations might require additional support.
2015-06-18T13:05:16Z synchromesh: Great progress, nonetheless!
2015-06-18T13:05:28Z Shinmera: Things are coming together, yeah.
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2015-06-18T13:05:46Z Shinmera: I still haven't heard back from the KDE guys about building smoke on Windows.
2015-06-18T13:06:04Z Shinmera: I might have to go and bug the larger mailing lists than just kde-bindings.
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2015-06-18T13:23:28Z jackdaniel: once again in a dirty cave of virtualboxed windows
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2015-06-18T14:11:39Z drmeister: I have a CL programming strategy question.
2015-06-18T14:11:58Z drmeister: In Clasp's compiler one top level form will generate a bunch of LLVM functions.
2015-06-18T14:12:29Z drmeister: Currently I append them all into a list called *all-functions-for-one-compile*
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2015-06-18T14:12:52Z drmeister: It's a dynamic variable that stores all LLVM functions generated for one COMPILE command.
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2015-06-18T14:13:44Z drmeister: Now my Common Lisp Function objects that I create with COMPILE need to get that list associated with them.  I use this for DISASSEMBLE so that I can see the LLVM-IR generated for a function.need to get
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2015-06-18T14:13:57Z drmeister: Sorry - garbage at the end of that last line "need to get"
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2015-06-18T14:15:55Z drmeister: With Cleavir, every COMPILE of a DEFUN generates a main function that I execute and that calls another function that ultimately creates a Common Lisp Function that is fbound to a symbol.
2015-06-18T14:16:36Z drmeister: How the heck do I get the contents of *all-functions-for-one-compile* to the Common Lisp function object.
2015-06-18T14:17:01Z drmeister: My thinking:
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2015-06-18T14:17:44Z drmeister: (1) I have to (let ((*all-functions-for-one-compile* nil)) ... (compile-and-execute-repl-form ...) ...)
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2015-06-18T14:19:38Z drmeister: I have to clear out the *all-functions-for-one-compile* dynamic variable in a scope outside of the scope where it gets filled by COMPILE and the scope where the returned JIT'd code gets executed.
2015-06-18T14:20:10Z drmeister: (2) The function gets fbound to its symbol using (core:*fset name function).
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2015-06-18T14:21:11Z pjb: drmeister: two points: 1- with-compilation-unit should probably be considerd for your *all-functions-for-one-compile*, I'd guess.  2- functions can actually be closures that are enclosed in the same environment as other functions: (let (x) (defun g () x) (defun s (v) (setf s v))) when disassembling g or s, you might want to show something about x and the other functions in the closure.
2015-06-18T14:21:24Z drmeister: This is the part that I don't like.  I could change the implementation of core:*fset so that it uses the symbol-value of *all-functions-for-one-compile to sets slot in the Common Lisp Function object with the list of associated LLVM functions.
2015-06-18T14:22:01Z pjb: Notice that (with-compilation-unit (with-compilation-unit (compile 'f)) (with-compilation-unit (compile 'g))) compile f and g in the same compilation unit.
2015-06-18T14:22:06Z pjb: the toplevel one.
2015-06-18T14:22:53Z pjb: drmeister: re. my point 2, I guess that would mean that you'd keep the *all-functions-for-one-compile* plus an index to the code of the current function.
2015-06-18T14:23:14Z drmeister: Argh, train going under Philadelphia - communication will be intermittent for a few minutes.
2015-06-18T14:23:21Z pjb: good tunnel! :-)
2015-06-18T14:23:45Z nyef: Good tunnel, bad cell repeaters?
2015-06-18T14:23:47Z drmeister: pjb: You raise a good point.  with-compilation-unit should be involved here.
2015-06-18T14:23:52Z pjb: fetch: http://www.jokebuddha.com/Tunnel
2015-06-18T14:24:22Z drmeister: I get reception in the underground stations depending on what car I'm in and where it is in the station.
2015-06-18T14:24:29Z drmeister: It appears that I have comm now.
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2015-06-18T14:26:49Z jackdaniel: oh, I've scanned car in sentence above, and was wondering, how is it related to the station -.-
2015-06-18T14:27:35Z drmeister: This list of associated LLVM-functions is not written into FASL files - it's a convenience for interactive programming.
2015-06-18T14:28:04Z pjb: jackdaniel: (defvar train (car (car (car (car cdr)))) ; tchuk tchuk!
2015-06-18T14:28:22Z jackdaniel: :-)
2015-06-18T14:28:35Z pjb: drmeister: also, you may just use a disassembler.  THere must exist LLVM or native code disassemblers you could reuse?
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2015-06-18T14:47:02Z Shinmera: Baggers: re main thread: http://shinmera.github.io/trivial-main-thread/
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2015-06-18T14:47:46Z oleo: morning
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2015-06-18T15:39:33Z jackdaniel: not suprisingly cygwin makes using windows bit more bearable
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2015-06-18T16:38:14Z rpg: Can I portably give a format string to ERROR when making a FILE-ERROR?
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2015-06-18T16:39:46Z rpg: Looks like "no," but that seems wrong...
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2015-06-18T16:42:36Z nyef: What seems wrong about it?
2015-06-18T16:42:59Z nyef: Format strings are typically associated with, what was it, SIMPLE-CONDITION?
2015-06-18T16:43:38Z nyef: FILE-ERROR is unlikely to be a SIMPLE-CONDITION, but a SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR (if there is one) might well be.
2015-06-18T16:44:23Z Baggers: Shinmera: Nice! I'll change cepl to use that then
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2015-06-18T16:44:32Z pjb: something likke: (define-condition simple-file-error (simple-condition file-error) ())
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2015-06-18T17:08:06Z aeth: trivial-benchmark? Interesting
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2015-06-18T17:13:12Z nyef: Trivial-benchmark sounds like what you get if you miss when swinging a hammer.
2015-06-18T17:14:02Z drmeister: pjb: There is a disassembler in LLVM - I haven't figured out how to use it yet.  I know where functions start because I get the function pointer, but I haven't figured out how to get their size, so that I know how much to disassemble.
2015-06-18T17:14:30Z aeth: is there anything for generating nonsense test data (specifically here, strings) or do I have to write something quickly using RANDOM?
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2015-06-18T17:16:09Z drmeister: Also, when I disassemble stuff loaded from FASL files within lldb or gdb I get lots of metadata (function names for calls, labels etc) associated with the disassembly.  When I disassemble JIT'd code with lldb I don't see that metadata, it's just assembly language.  That makes me sad - I'd love to get the metadata in the disassembly within Clasp but that may
2015-06-18T17:16:09Z drmeister: require a lot more work.
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2015-06-18T17:17:37Z drmeister: nyef: As opposed to non-trivial-benchmark like what you get when your drill goes through the workpiece into the underlying bench.
2015-06-18T17:17:53Z nyef: Something like that, yes.
2015-06-18T17:19:47Z jasom: Is there a way to extract all variables that will be bound by an optima pattern?
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2015-06-18T17:24:13Z jasom: ah, found it pattern-variables
2015-06-18T17:25:09Z rpg: nyef: (was away) I don't believe there is a SIMPOLE-FILE-ERROR.
2015-06-18T17:25:32Z nyef: Very plausibly not.
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2015-06-18T17:30:18Z rpg: So I think I can't *portably* supply :format-arguments and :format-control to a FILE-ERROR, which seems wrong, since FILE-ERROR is not very specific about what kind of error it is.
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2015-06-18T17:30:32Z rpg: Possibly I should extend the file-error type as needed.
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2015-06-18T17:33:27Z rpg: Interestingly, on ACL I can supply these slots to FILE-ERROR...
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2015-06-18T18:04:21Z aeth: Why are so many fast things done in C++? Is there that much of an overhead with garbage collection? Is it mostly a RAM disadvantage?
2015-06-18T18:06:09Z aeth: Or do the people who think C++ will make their code faster have no clue what they're doing?
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2015-06-18T18:06:44Z scymtym: jasom: if you mess with patterns, maybe https://github.com/sbcl/specializable/blob/pattern-specializer-sat/src/pattern-specializer/optima-extensions/transform.lisp is of interest
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2015-06-18T18:13:02Z rpg: aeth: I believe it's not just the garbage collection; there's an additional overhead with dynamic typing.
2015-06-18T18:13:26Z rpg: aeth: Also method-dispatch and funcall through symbol tables can be expensive
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2015-06-18T18:13:35Z ggole: Flat structs and arrays help too
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2015-06-18T18:14:08Z Baggers: and some people do enjoy it, they have internalized the rules so it is fluid for them
2015-06-18T18:14:29Z aeth: rpg: The first part, that's what people use declaim for, right?
2015-06-18T18:14:38Z aeth: (declaim (ftype
2015-06-18T18:15:04Z rpg: aeth: You can't always escape boxing....
2015-06-18T18:16:52Z pjb: aeth: (loop for i below 100 collect (format nil "~R" i)) is sufficient non-sence for me :-)
2015-06-18T18:16:54Z pjb: sense
2015-06-18T18:17:07Z aeth: pjb: you are a genius
2015-06-18T18:17:15Z aeth: pjb: I didn't think to use ~R, that simplifies the design a lot
2015-06-18T18:17:57Z pjb: the nice thing is that it's unsorted :-)
2015-06-18T18:18:29Z aeth: All I needed was a way to map an integer to a string in a predictable way like that, and ~R definitely works
2015-06-18T18:18:36Z pjb: rpg: (define-condition simple-file-error (simple-condition file-error) ()) ;was for you.
2015-06-18T18:18:52Z rpg: pjb: thanks!
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2015-06-18T18:19:23Z pjb: rpg: also, consider defining evern more precise and application specific errors, with slots containing pertinent data.  This helps recovery and restarting.
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2015-06-18T18:31:56Z rpg: pjb: Yes, I generally try to do that.
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2015-06-18T18:38:04Z aeth: What do people use for tests? Fiveam?
2015-06-18T18:38:16Z pjb: yes. I use my own simple-test.
2015-06-18T18:38:29Z aeth: I currently use the REPL for tests, which kind of makes me dependent on remembering the different things that need to be tested when I rewrite something.
2015-06-18T18:38:39Z pjb: Use dribble before testing.
2015-06-18T18:39:55Z pjb: Put http://paste.lisp.org/+37SJ in your rc files.
2015-06-18T18:40:10Z pjb: (but I don't think it'll work with slime).
2015-06-18T18:40:19Z jasom: scymtym: it's really easy: just use parse-pattern and call pattern-variables on the result
2015-06-18T18:41:31Z scymtym: jasom: ok, i though you may be doing this as part of more complex processing
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2015-06-18T18:44:27Z Shinmera: nyef: To be honest I should probably rename it to something better as since I rewrote it it isn't really "trivial" anymore.
2015-06-18T18:45:06Z jasom: scymtym: I have a giant match statement that I would like to break down so each body is it's own named function for more useful backtraces, this requires extracting the variables to bind though
2015-06-18T18:45:18Z jasom: s/it's/its
2015-06-18T18:47:46Z scymtym: jasom: interesting and apparently quite related: the code i linked is used to build a big match statement for gf dispatch from pattern specializers in methods and get pattern variables back into method bodies.
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2015-06-18T18:49:46Z jasom: aeth: there is a tool to transition from repl testing to reusable tests
2015-06-18T18:50:42Z jasom: aeth: https://github.com/rpav/CheckL <-- I haven't used it, but remember seeing it before
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2015-06-18T18:54:12Z jackdaniel: having all this fancy stream machinery, how to force reading all available bytes from input? Assuming I'm doing: (make-echo-stream *independent-input* *standard-output*) it writes to standard output only, when I do read-* on created echo-stream
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2015-06-18T18:54:28Z rpg: aeth: I use 5AM.  Pretty happy with it.  Relatively simple, and relatively easy to go back and forth between interactive testing and capturing a 5AM test suite
2015-06-18T18:54:42Z jackdaniel: I want something more, hm, pipe'y
2015-06-18T18:55:35Z rpg: pjb: Is dribble necessary any more? You can just save a SLIME buffer as a file....
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2015-06-18T18:58:33Z PuercoPop: aeth: let me recommend prove, writing and running a test is as simple as (prove:is (foo <input>) <expected_value>) so you can continue your testing strategy and when you feel comfortable make a proper test system.
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2015-06-18T19:01:33Z aeth: interesting, active as of 3 days ago, that's a good sign. https://github.com/fukamachi/prove
2015-06-18T19:01:46Z Shinmera: Or it's a bad sign as it needs work.
2015-06-18T19:02:08Z aeth: Software always needs work. Even if you make the perfect software, the libraries you use will update and break it eventually. :-p
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2015-06-18T19:02:17Z aeth: Or the OS :-p
2015-06-18T19:02:36Z Shinmera: There's lisp stuff from 30 years ago that still runs just fine.
2015-06-18T19:02:39Z jackdaniel: dependency vs redundancy ;)
2015-06-18T19:03:37Z aeth: Shinmera: until the next CL spec
2015-06-18T19:03:45Z Shinmera: Which is never, so you're fine.
2015-06-18T19:04:12Z aeth: Even Fortran gets updated
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2015-06-18T19:04:23Z Shinmera: Either way, my point stands. Just because there's been recent updates does not mean it's good to use, and it also doesn't mean that the inverse (software hasn't been updated) is a bad sign.
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2015-06-18T19:07:35Z jasom: aeth: fukamachi has a tendency to make breaking changes more than other lisp projects
2015-06-18T19:08:37Z aeth: Why does everyone think that CL will never get another spec?
2015-06-18T19:08:47Z Bike: cos it's expensive and not very popular
2015-06-18T19:08:56Z Bike: also people still use fortran 77, unfortunately. just have to complain about that
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2015-06-18T19:09:14Z jasom: aeth: there is a really good talk on why up on youtube
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2015-06-18T19:09:50Z aeth: btw, really old Lisp programs don't run out of the box, I think you need to wrap them in that tag that tells it to use the legacy way scoping was done
2015-06-18T19:09:57Z jackdaniel: hm, fact that it's unlikely *now* isn't good argument for "never"
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2015-06-18T19:10:13Z rpg: aeth: I believe that the intellecutal property of the spec itself is in unsettled status, which is a problem. Also a new spec would be staggeringly expensive to do and who would pay for it? The SBCL team?
2015-06-18T19:10:21Z jackdaniel: imagine wide adoption of cl - ik, unlikely *now*
2015-06-18T19:10:29Z jackdaniel: I see loads of money there
2015-06-18T19:10:38Z Shinmera: It doesn't matter what you see.
2015-06-18T19:10:40Z jasom: aeth: https://soundcloud.com/zach-beane/peter-seibel-common-lisp
2015-06-18T19:10:58Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: it doesn't matter what you can't see either
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2015-06-18T19:11:02Z rpg: aeth: I think you are confusing emacs-lisp with common lisp.  You do not need any scoping tag to run old CL programs.
2015-06-18T19:11:18Z aeth: rpg: no, old LISP programs in CL
2015-06-18T19:11:24Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: It does if one is an important business person with lots of money.
2015-06-18T19:11:29Z rpg: aeth: No, the scoping discipline of CL has never changed.
2015-06-18T19:11:46Z aeth: rpg: I don't mean CL, I mean LISP. Really old LISP programs that use ALL-CAPS and strange indentation schemes
2015-06-18T19:11:47Z nyef: Pre-CL Lisp programs, maybe?
2015-06-18T19:11:49Z Bike: some nearly-CL programs would work with some declare special, though
2015-06-18T19:12:01Z nyef: Mind the &QUOTE lambda-list keyword!
2015-06-18T19:12:11Z Bike: like that one thing pjb did that he links sometimes
2015-06-18T19:12:21Z rpg: aeth: scoping would not be your only problem with pre-CL programs. But there really aren't a lot of those to be found out there....
2015-06-18T19:12:32Z rpg: CL is pretty old.
2015-06-18T19:12:34Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: what isn't very related to topic in question
2015-06-18T19:12:34Z aeth: rpg: you'd be surprised, I stumbled upon a lot of them a few years ago
2015-06-18T19:12:49Z aeth: if only I could find them
2015-06-18T19:13:21Z Bike: if you want old lisp programs you can just check the cmu archive, if it's still up. mostly cl! one was on a television show! good stuff
2015-06-18T19:13:21Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Yes it is. You said "wide adoption". For "wide adoption" it matters what important business people with lots of bux think.
2015-06-18T19:13:53Z aeth: oh here's some, under "lisp history" on Google. http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/
2015-06-18T19:13:54Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: wide adoption can emerge bottom-top, like python did
2015-06-18T19:14:20Z jackdaniel: and cl is great example, that big amount of money doesn't guarantee success
2015-06-18T19:14:35Z Shinmera: We weren't talking about success though.
2015-06-18T19:14:37Z jackdaniel: and buisness reason°
2015-06-18T19:15:13Z jackdaniel: yes, but success brings money, which was blocker with new spec according to above
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2015-06-18T19:15:36Z aeth: If some random startup writes a successful website in Brainfuck then Brainfuck is what everyone will start using. That's wide adoption. :-p
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2015-06-18T19:15:53Z Shinmera: If only it were that easy.
2015-06-18T19:16:31Z jackdaniel: I agree it's hard and unlikely, but it is just another argument against saying *never*
2015-06-18T19:16:47Z jackdaniel: that it's complicated thing and hard to predict I mean
2015-06-18T19:16:51Z Shinmera: Nobody means ever "never" as in "absolutely 100% no chance ever" anyway.
2015-06-18T19:17:32Z Shinmera: What "never" means and should mean is "very unlikely to the point where it makes little to no sense to fantasise about it"
2015-06-18T19:17:35Z Shinmera: Which is what I mean.
2015-06-18T19:17:51Z aeth: Shinmera: but plenty of people fantasize about winning the lottery, which is less probable
2015-06-18T19:17:58Z jackdaniel: weird definition of never, I'll keep it in mind next time tough
2015-06-18T19:18:10Z pjb: rpg: you need to remember to save the slime buffer.  a dribble is good for it's automatic.
2015-06-18T19:18:10Z aeth: So I guess the moral of the story is that we humans are irrational and we outsource the rationality to the computers we work on
2015-06-18T19:18:12Z Bike: aeth: "these other people are slightly dumber, so this is ok"
2015-06-18T19:18:19Z rpg: pjb: yep.
2015-06-18T19:18:23Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell aeth about worse
2015-06-18T19:18:23Z Colleen: aeth: Just because something is worse does not excuse something bad.
2015-06-18T19:18:41Z Bike: friggin robots taking my jobs.
2015-06-18T19:19:12Z aeth: Colleen: but there are plenty of languages worse than Java!
2015-06-18T19:19:13Z Colleen: In computing, just-in-time compilation (JIT), also known as dynamic translation, compilation is done during execution of a program – at run time – rather than prior to execution.[1] Most often this co... <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation>
2015-06-18T19:19:33Z aeth: I am disappointed in your Turing test abilities, Colleen
2015-06-18T19:19:41Z Shinmera: It's not meant to be a chat bot.
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2015-06-18T19:20:19Z Bike: minion: thanks
2015-06-18T19:20:20Z minion: you're welcome
2015-06-18T19:20:29Z pjb: aeth: what's required to run old lisp programs is really trivial and reduced to the minimum: www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2015-06-18T19:20:33Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2015-06-18T19:20:34Z Bike: i like this feature, forreal
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2015-06-18T19:20:42Z pjb: damned browser.
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2015-06-18T19:21:21Z Shinmera: Colleen: thanks
2015-06-18T19:21:21Z Colleen: What for?
2015-06-18T19:21:35Z Bike: not bad, not bad.
2015-06-18T19:21:53Z Shinmera: Anyway, having a better pattern matcher for little games like that has been on my todo for a while
2015-06-18T19:22:01Z aeth: how did they balance the parentheses before modern emacs
2015-06-18T19:22:04Z Shinmera: It's just not as important as the rest of the things I have planned.
2015-06-18T19:22:11Z BWV988: Colleen: open plan office
2015-06-18T19:22:12Z Colleen: Open plan is the generic term used in architectural and interior design for any floor plan which makes use of large, open spaces and minimizes the use of small, enclosed rooms such as private offices.... <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_plan>
2015-06-18T19:22:29Z BWV988: very good XD
2015-06-18T19:22:41Z pjb: Sometimes, you have to change the readtable, like, have a reader macro for #/x instead of #\x and use octal instead of decimal, but it's really all trivial.
2015-06-18T19:23:03Z Bike: aeth: sometimes they used a "super parenthesis" that closed all open parentheses. i'd imagine it was a bit unpleasant, much like most programming at the time
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2015-06-18T19:24:58Z larxy: ] closed all open paranthesis, I really wish I could use that.
2015-06-18T19:25:12Z pjb: You can, write a reader macro for #\(.
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2015-06-18T19:26:06Z larxy: Also wasn't "common lisp the language" published before CL became ANSI, which would suggest an amount of non-CL stuff out there?
2015-06-18T19:26:06Z Shinmera: If you have that many closing parens that it's annoying you might want to start thinking about factoring things out into smaller functions anyway.
2015-06-18T19:26:33Z pjb: larxy: yes. not really.
2015-06-18T19:28:07Z aeth: I have two ))))))))s in the code I'm working on right now
2015-06-18T19:29:52Z aeth: It's very easy to get in math, e.g. one of them's from: defun let if + / expt - 1+
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2015-06-18T19:32:43Z larxy: On a slight topic to ], if you are using paredit, can you temporarily disable paredit? Like when you screw up the paranthesis and cant move the cursor/insert parens?
2015-06-18T19:33:06Z pjb: yes, as soon as parentheses are not balanced, paredit disable itself.
2015-06-18T19:34:08Z larxy: pjb: I need to experiment again then, because I remember being "stuck" when not in balance.
2015-06-18T19:34:36Z PuercoPop: aeth: to be fair to other testing libraries, prove has been written recently so it seems logical for it to have recent activity, the churn rate of software in CL is pretty low.
2015-06-18T19:34:40Z Shinmera: You should always be able to paste in characters even while paredit is active
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2015-06-18T19:35:41Z emaczen: should 'M-x slime-edit-definition' 'asdf:find-component' take me to the source file where 'find-component is defined?
2015-06-18T19:36:04Z Bike: hopefully, yeah.
2015-06-18T19:36:17Z emaczen: something is wrong... lol
2015-06-18T19:36:36Z PuercoPop: emaczen: all of asdf is wrapped in a (with-upgradability ...) macro so at most it gets you to the top level form in which it is defined
2015-06-18T19:36:46Z Bike: It WorksForMe (TM)
2015-06-18T19:36:56Z Bike: find-component is like five lines down from where M-. takes me
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2015-06-18T19:37:05Z emaczen: Emacs takes me to a blank buffer...
2015-06-18T19:37:26Z Bike: that's weird. what's it called?
2015-06-18T19:37:31Z emaczen: It says "Use M-x make-directory RET RET to create the directory and it's parents"
2015-06-18T19:37:40Z emaczen: It is called asdf.lisp<asdf>
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2015-06-18T19:37:50Z Shinmera: Then the source was compiled somewhere where no source file exists anymore
2015-06-18T19:38:02Z Bike: ok, yeah, that's wrong. asdf's been split into multiple files for a while.
2015-06-18T19:38:11Z Shinmera: Bike: SBCL ships a single file ASDF.
2015-06-18T19:38:13Z Bike: ...or not
2015-06-18T19:38:15Z Bike: yeah, sorry
2015-06-18T19:38:30Z Shinmera: ASDF is only in multiple files for development. It's concatenated for deployment.
2015-06-18T19:38:38Z Bike: emaczen: can you look up sources of sbcl functions (eg anything standard)?
2015-06-18T19:38:39Z emaczen: I was looking at the asdf.lisp file last night in ~/quicklisp/asdf.lisp
2015-06-18T19:39:16Z emaczen: Bike: No, it is doing the same thing...
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2015-06-18T19:39:41Z Bike: okay, your sbcl sources might be set wrong, then. do you have sbcl sources somewhere?
2015-06-18T19:39:43Z emaczen: /builddir/build/BUILD/sbcl-1.2.4/sbcl-1.2.4/src/code/sort.lisp -- a path in *slime-xref* buffer
2015-06-18T19:39:44Z Bike: um, assuming this is sbcl.
2015-06-18T19:39:51Z emaczen: Bike: It is SBCL
2015-06-18T19:40:17Z emaczen: Here is a thought.
2015-06-18T19:40:22Z emaczen: I downloaded slime without quicklisp?
2015-06-18T19:40:45Z Bike: shouldn't matter, slime gets its location information from the implementation
2015-06-18T19:41:34Z Bike: What's in (logical-pathname-translations "SYS")?
2015-06-18T19:42:12Z emaczen: #P"/builddir/build/BUILD/sbcl-1.2.4/sbcl-1.2.4/src/**/*.*"
2015-06-18T19:42:20Z emaczen: As well as contrib and output
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2015-06-18T19:42:34Z Bike: do those folders actually exist on your system?
2015-06-18T19:42:56Z emaczen: no
2015-06-18T19:43:08Z Bike: alright. do you have sbcl sources downloaded somewhere?
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2015-06-18T19:43:52Z emaczen: I think I downloaded a more recent version then what came with Fedora 21
2015-06-18T19:43:54Z emaczen: Let me look
2015-06-18T19:44:16Z emaczen: Yes I found sbcl-1.2.9
2015-06-18T19:44:17Z Bike: once you find em, try (sb-ext:set-sbcl-source-location "wherever/sbcl/") and then try M-. again
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2015-06-18T19:45:03Z emaczen: Bike: Thanks!
2015-06-18T19:45:10Z Bike: Does it work?
2015-06-18T19:45:15Z emaczen: It took me right to (with-upgradability ... )
2015-06-18T19:45:32Z Bike: Great. Make sure you put the call in .sbclrc or something so it sticks between sbcl invocations.
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2015-06-18T19:54:37Z emaczen: Is there a back button with the slime-inspector?
2015-06-18T19:55:01Z emaczen: I found it!
2015-06-18T19:55:04Z emaczen: C-h m
2015-06-18T19:55:16Z larxy: paredit question: cursor is at X, what do you type to close foo? (progn (fooX (bar))
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2015-06-18T20:01:32Z brpocock: larxy: if nobody answered earlier: Control+Q, then )
2015-06-18T20:02:08Z emaczen: I can see in the slime inspector the slot-values of my asdf-system class but how do I get at these with the REPL? For example, I can see the value of the "depends-on" slot, but when I try (slot-value my-object 'depends-on) it tells me the slot is missing
2015-06-18T20:02:38Z Bike: have you got the package right? maybe it's 'asdf:depends-on you want, or something?
2015-06-18T20:02:53Z emaczen: Bike, yeah I tried that
2015-06-18T20:05:06Z emaczen: Does (slot-value ...) always work or do some classes restrict access thsi way?
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2015-06-18T20:07:46Z Bike: you can define methods on slot-value, but i don't think asdf does.
2015-06-18T20:08:29Z emaczen: Bike: You mean accessors right?
2015-06-18T20:08:38Z Bike: no, i mean slot-value
2015-06-18T20:08:42Z mood: emaczen: You can use (slot-value system 'asdf/system::depends-on)
2015-06-18T20:09:33Z Bike: so 'asdf:depends-on told you no such symbol? that's a different error from no such slot, you should mention that sort of thing
2015-06-18T20:09:34Z emaczen: mood: Thanks! Why do you have to use 'asdf/system'
2015-06-18T20:09:52Z Bike: because that's the package the symbol is in, not asdf
2015-06-18T20:10:37Z emaczen: Bike: It tells me "the slot DEPENDS-ON is missing from the object #<my-system>."
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2015-06-18T20:11:09Z Bike: did it do that when you used asdf:depends-on? because that should have given you a different error.
2015-06-18T20:11:25Z emaczen: Bike: ahhh you are correct.
2015-06-18T20:11:41Z emaczen: Sorry, I didn't look closely enough when I tried that.
2015-06-18T20:11:45Z Bike: it helps to notice these things.
2015-06-18T20:14:55Z larxy: brpocock: thanks C-q ) works :)
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2015-06-18T20:22:02Z rpg: unfortunately, ASDF:COMPONENT-DEPENDS-ON does not access this slot...
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2015-06-18T20:22:23Z rpg: suboptimal naming....
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2015-06-18T21:12:20Z aeth: Zhivago: I just realized what you were saying wtih the concatenated streams. You are a genius. Thanks.
2015-06-18T21:12:45Z aeth: You should patent that algorithm before it spreads to everyone on #lisp :-p
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2015-06-18T21:15:30Z pjb: aeth: or you could take notice of the lisppastes: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149447#1
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2015-06-18T21:16:33Z aeth: prior art? :o
2015-06-18T21:17:07Z Bike: that's terrible, but pretty cool in a way.
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2015-06-18T21:17:54Z pjb: aeth: or you could just use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-list-file-contents or some other *-file-contents functions in that package.
2015-06-18T21:20:38Z brpocock: is that akin to alexandria:read-file-into-string ?
2015-06-18T21:20:51Z pjb: text-file-contents
2015-06-18T21:21:10Z brpocock: I ironically replaced a call to it, as such, earlier today
2015-06-18T21:21:48Z brpocock: that's the one, rather, aye. Just funny coïncidence.
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2015-06-18T21:26:47Z emaczen: What is the function that checks if a file has changed? Is this included in with-open-file?
2015-06-18T21:27:00Z pjb: file-write-date?
2015-06-18T21:27:01Z emaczen: I can't really M-. to (with-open-file ...) for some reason
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2015-06-18T21:28:13Z brpocock: do you have your compiler's sources installed / configured with Slime?
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2015-06-18T21:29:00Z emaczen: brpocock: Bike helped me fix my M-. like two hours ago.
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2015-06-18T21:29:51Z emaczen: For some reason when I try M-. to "with-open-file" I get: "Error: Symbol "MACRO-POLICY-DECLS" not found in the SB-C package." in the minibuffer.
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2015-06-18T21:31:07Z k-stz: did you issue: (sb-ext:set-sbcl-source-location <path-to-sbcl-source>) ?
2015-06-18T21:31:24Z emaczen: k-stz: Yep
2015-06-18T21:31:43Z emaczen: M-. is working for just about everything else I have tried
2015-06-18T21:32:07Z k-stz: emaczen: is it in your .sbclrc? Try to restart sbcl
2015-06-18T21:32:21Z k-stz: ,restart-inferior-lisp
2015-06-18T21:32:26Z emaczen: k-stz: I did
2015-06-18T21:32:38Z evilthomas is now known as thomas
2015-06-18T21:33:03Z brpocock: The error for (can't find sources) is more like Slime trying to create a missing directory or so.
2015-06-18T21:33:52Z brpocock: 'SB-C:MACRO-POLICY-DECLS is fbound in my sbcl (1.2.11)
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2015-06-18T21:35:01Z emaczen: If M-. doesn't work for a bunch of other things, then I will worry about it.
2015-06-18T21:35:26Z emaczen: But it seems to be working pretty well so I am not worried.
2015-06-18T21:35:41Z Bike: that sounds like it might be a mismatch between the running sbcl and the sources. just a guess.
2015-06-18T21:36:07Z brpocock: Did you (delete-package 'sb-c) ;-)
2015-06-18T21:36:44Z PuercoPop: emaczen: how have you installed sbcl? from the provided binaries?
2015-06-18T21:37:38Z emaczen: I downloaded a Tar file of sbcl-1.2.9
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2015-06-18T21:38:39Z k-stz: emaczen: does it work for other symbols from the sbcl sources? If so, with-open-file is located in macros.lisp
2015-06-18T21:39:03Z emaczen: It works with "sort"
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2015-06-18T21:39:59Z aeth: pjb: I'm not sure using a library here would be a good idea. (Although I currently use alexandria for the string equivalent.) This code is part of code that will probably be spun off into its own library, and I'm not sure having a big pile of requirements is a good idea here.
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2015-06-18T21:40:52Z Bike: macro policy decls was added in... october, so it's probably in 1.2.9
2015-06-18T21:44:06Z brpocock: g2g, good luck.
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2015-06-18T21:46:36Z pjb: aeth: of course.  Libraries are not panaceas.
2015-06-18T21:46:44Z emaczen: pjb: I don't think file-write-date is what I need, doesn't won't fstat tell me if a file has changed?
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2015-06-18T21:47:10Z pjb: emaczen: perhaps you want inotify. IIRC, there are two CL libraries providing that.
2015-06-18T21:47:38Z pjb: aeth: one important freedom provided by GPL is the freedom to study the code (of course, to be able to do something else with it).
2015-06-18T21:48:12Z aeth: Basically, I'm going to have to be able to handle a bunch of different filetypes for the game engine I'm working on. Which will probably wind up with an accidental reimplementation of much of emacs in Common Lisp if I persist at it too long.
2015-06-18T21:48:53Z aeth: Sort of like how any complex enough program will reimplement part of Lisp or however that law goes :-p
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2015-06-18T21:51:04Z aeth: No one writes games in Common Lisp, so I basically have to build up the tools around making games in Common Lisp because the tools are important.
2015-06-18T21:51:17Z pjb: aeth: as in #lispgame
2015-06-18T21:51:21Z aeth: yes
2015-06-18T21:51:23Z pjb: #lispgames
2015-06-18T21:51:27Z aeth: I'm there
2015-06-18T21:52:52Z Bike: did dto disintegrate or something? he did some pretty impressive stuff
2015-06-18T21:53:25Z aeth: The lispgame stuff is mostly just foreign wrappers over opengl stuff, SDL2 stuff, etc.
2015-06-18T21:53:56Z Bike: please do not rewrite opengl
2015-06-18T21:54:38Z aeth: Once I get some working games, I'm probably going to have to rewrite as much of the SDL2 stuff that I'm using (just the subset that I wind up using) as possible in native Common Lisp for performance/debugging/REPL/etc. This will probably gradually take place over years, if I get around to it at all.
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2015-06-18T21:54:52Z Bike: rewriting sdl sounds kind of bad, like i guess you'd use glx and wgl and stuff?
2015-06-18T21:55:01Z aeth: I don't need cross platform anyway :-p
2015-06-18T21:55:17Z nyef: aeth: http://xelf.me/ maybe?
2015-06-18T21:55:17Z Bike: bad attitude
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2015-06-18T21:55:47Z aeth: Bike: I don't need to rewrite opengl, what I'll probably wind up doing is transitioning my codebase to Vulkan/SPIR-V and write a SPIR-V compiler. That will minimize foreign code used.
2015-06-18T21:56:14Z nyef: I won't need cross platform for at least another month. Probably two or three.
2015-06-18T21:56:45Z Bike: dto didn't disintegrate. that's good
2015-06-18T21:56:53Z aeth: nyef: I'm not using 2D, though, I'm going to be using Voxels, although probably the early test games will be 2D or pseudo-2D so I don't have to write complex physics just yet
2015-06-18T21:57:17Z aeth: nyef: Ideally I'd do a gradual replace-what-I-need approach to physics too, but the support for foreign physics libraries just doesn't seem to be there.
2015-06-18T21:57:40Z nyef: Ah.
2015-06-18T21:57:50Z Bike: guess it depends on what kind of game you're making. N has pretty involved collision detection and physics in 2D
2015-06-18T21:57:59Z nyef: ... And what was that physics library that got cloned in lisp? Chipmunk or something?
2015-06-18T21:58:17Z nyef: Squirl maybe?
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2015-06-18T22:01:09Z aeth: What I've wound up doing is I've settled on a design that relies a lot on reading in data files at launch (yeah it might take a while to load large games, I guess)
2015-06-18T22:01:29Z aeth: But if I e.g. write in support for PNG, then I have a generalized PNG thing that I can then use in e.g. an editor too if I wanted to.
2015-06-18T22:01:40Z Bike: who ever heard of a game having load times
2015-06-18T22:01:56Z Bike: can't you load pngs with opticl?
2015-06-18T22:02:16Z aeth: There's quite a few PNG libraries but they all seem to be rather incomplete
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2015-06-18T22:02:32Z aeth: Unless there's one I'm missing
2015-06-18T22:02:57Z Bike: opticl lets you read and write png streams. dunno what else you need, though.
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2015-06-18T22:05:12Z aeth: opticl might be enough, idk, this is the first time I've seen it
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2015-06-18T22:29:15Z aeth: I think opticl will work well enough for now
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2015-06-18T22:58:03Z pjb: /
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2015-06-18T23:07:33Z noh: hi
2015-06-18T23:07:51Z noh: what's your favorite ide for lisp?
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2015-06-18T23:11:09Z jasom: noh: SLIME
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2015-06-18T23:13:31Z noh: jasom: thanks
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2015-06-18T23:20:01Z noh: well... after typing M-x slime, i get this error message: /usr/bin/clisp: /usr/lib/clisp-2.49/full/lisp.run: no such file or directory
2015-06-18T23:22:16Z noh: but the gnu clisp interpreter works just fine...
2015-06-18T23:22:38Z RussT1: What ever application you're using doesn't see common lisp in your path.
2015-06-18T23:22:45Z RussT1: errr well clisp
2015-06-18T23:23:28Z noh: ok, i'll take a closer look at my .emacs config file
2015-06-18T23:23:34Z noh: thanks :)
2015-06-18T23:23:36Z RussT1: It's possible the path is /usr/local/bin
2015-06-18T23:23:47Z RussT1: Can't say since I don't know where it was installed.
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2015-06-18T23:23:54Z noh: ok
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2015-06-18T23:30:33Z failproofshark: noh: try which clisp
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2015-06-18T23:31:07Z noh: 2.49
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2015-06-18T23:31:48Z aeth: There are too many networking libraries, what's the one that everyone uses?
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2015-06-18T23:32:25Z failproofshark: noh: sorry i should've asked first, what os are you on?
2015-06-18T23:32:43Z jasom: aeth: usocket if you don't need anything fancy
2015-06-18T23:33:28Z jasom: aeth: and by nothing fancy I mean more than "I need to listen/connect to a TCP/UDP socket in blocking mode"
2015-06-18T23:33:48Z jasom: IIRC usocket doesn't even have socketpair
2015-06-18T23:33:50Z noh: failproofshark: slackware
2015-06-18T23:34:40Z noh: i just created a symbolic link to the directory and it's now working
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