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2015-06-15T00:14:11Z nyef: ... I'm actually using caaar and cdaar.  This is surreal.
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2015-06-15T00:16:53Z Petit_Dejeuner_: caaar and cdaar? "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."
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2015-06-15T00:18:06Z nyef: Also, (apply #'max (mapcar #'cdar (mapcar #'last y-spans))).
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2015-06-15T00:44:17Z nyef: Petit_Dejeuner_: ... Okay, NOW I get the reference... I think. That took a while.
2015-06-15T00:44:20Z drmeister: Finally, Clasp sources are compiling and inlining is taking place.
2015-06-15T00:44:33Z nyef: drmeister: Congratulations.
2015-06-15T00:44:43Z nyef: Noticing any significant speedup yet?
2015-06-15T00:45:54Z drmeister: I haven't tried profiling anything yet.  I've been focused on getting the Clasp+Cleavir sources to compile with inlining.
2015-06-15T00:46:49Z nyef: I was more thinking wall-clock time for the build process. (-:
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2015-06-15T00:47:36Z drmeister: This is the non-inlined, bootstrapping compiler compiling Clasp+Cleavir.
2015-06-15T00:47:38Z drmeister: Slooooow
2015-06-15T00:48:03Z nyef: Ah, right, and the inlining basically only applies to Clasp+Cleavir?
2015-06-15T00:48:28Z drmeister: Yes.
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2015-06-15T01:04:30Z dennis_: is there a way to fork to the background in sbcl?
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2015-06-15T01:09:14Z nyef: dennis_: The popular thing is to just run in tmux or screen, or use detachtty or similar.
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2015-06-15T01:11:37Z dennis_: nyef: thats what I do now
2015-06-15T01:11:43Z dennis_: but it seems so hacky
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2015-06-15T01:15:50Z dennis_: so thats really the only way?
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2015-06-15T01:23:36Z White_Flame: dennis_: This is what we use. http://paste.lisp.org/display/149897
2015-06-15T01:23:49Z White_Flame: I didn't write it, I'm not much of a unix geek
2015-06-15T01:24:50Z Bike: what's hacky about screen? my irc client is in screen ~right now~
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2015-06-15T01:34:46Z Merdam: Are you tired of niggers?
2015-06-15T01:34:49Z Merdam: Sick of their monkeyshines?
2015-06-15T01:34:51Z Merdam: We are too!
2015-06-15T01:34:55Z nyef: The production environment at work is split between pm2 for the node.js stuff and screen for the lisp stuff.
2015-06-15T01:34:55Z Merdam: Join Chimpmania Forum!
2015-06-15T01:35:00Z Merdam: http://www.chimpmania.com/forum
2015-06-15T01:35:06Z Merdam: CHIMPMANIA IS THE NEW HOME OF CHIMPOUT FORUM!
2015-06-15T01:35:15Z Merdam: At Chimpmania, we are NOT white supremacists!
2015-06-15T01:35:18Z Merdam: I myself am a Mexican!
2015-06-15T01:35:37Z Merdam: Basically, if you are NOT A NIGGER and you HATE NIGGERS, we welcome you with open arms!
2015-06-15T01:35:38Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2015-06-15T01:35:44Z Merdam: Join Chimpmania Forum today!
2015-06-15T01:35:50Z Merdam: http://www.chimpmania.com/forum
2015-06-15T01:35:51Z dennis_: what the fuck is this shit?
2015-06-15T01:35:55Z Merdam: Because it's a zoo out there!
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2015-06-15T01:36:01Z nyef: dennis_: "The usual".
2015-06-15T01:36:03Z White_Flame: p_l: fe[nl]ix: ban please?
2015-06-15T01:36:06Z Bike: freenode spammer, just /ignore, they'll be k lined pretty soon
2015-06-15T01:36:24Z nyef: Also, don't visit the site.
2015-06-15T01:36:28Z dennis_: I just did/
2015-06-15T01:36:32Z dennis_: whoops
2015-06-15T01:36:34Z dennis_: sorry
2015-06-15T01:36:40Z Bike: why would you visit anything advertised in this fashion
2015-06-15T01:36:50Z White_Flame: dennis_: is my lisppaste more along the lines of what you were looking for?
2015-06-15T01:36:57Z dennis_: White_Flame: yes, thanks so much
2015-06-15T01:37:00Z White_Flame: cool
2015-06-15T01:37:55Z Merdam: Chimpout Forum has now fully migrated to Chimpmania Forum!  Check out Chimpmania radio and listen to our invaluable advice and commentary regarding the feral negroid beast!  If you can't stand niggers, you will love Chimpmania!  http://chimpmania.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?84
2015-06-15T01:38:07Z White_Flame: who else has op privileges?
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2015-06-15T01:38:33Z nyef: dennis_: At one point I had a pile of stuff to do something graceful with SIGTERM and the like.
2015-06-15T01:38:41Z dennis_: nyef: im so sorry
2015-06-15T01:38:53Z dennis_: unix signals are awful
2015-06-15T01:38:57Z dennis_: did you write it yourself?
2015-06-15T01:39:16Z nyef: Yes. It worked quite well, in fact.
2015-06-15T01:39:23Z dennis_: nice
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2015-06-15T01:39:40Z dennis_: I got a new gpu today
2015-06-15T01:39:41Z nyef: Until we disabled the whole thing as it got in the way of trying to scale things up.
2015-06-15T01:39:46Z dennis_: is there any lispy stuff I can do with it?
2015-06-15T01:39:59Z nyef: But then, it was fairly tightly tied to our screen-based environment as well.
2015-06-15T01:40:04Z Merdam: n
2015-06-15T01:40:05Z Merdam: i
2015-06-15T01:40:05Z Merdam: g
2015-06-15T01:40:06Z Merdam: g
2015-06-15T01:40:06Z Merdam: e
2015-06-15T01:40:07Z Merdam: r
2015-06-15T01:40:07Z Merdam: s
2015-06-15T01:40:11Z Merdam: n
2015-06-15T01:40:13Z Merdam: i
2015-06-15T01:40:15Z Merdam: g
2015-06-15T01:40:17Z Merdam: g
2015-06-15T01:40:19Z Merdam: e
2015-06-15T01:40:21Z Merdam: r
2015-06-15T01:40:23Z Merdam: s
2015-06-15T01:40:25Z Merdam: n
2015-06-15T01:40:27Z Merdam: i
2015-06-15T01:40:29Z dennis_: this fucking guy
2015-06-15T01:40:29Z Merdam: g
2015-06-15T01:40:31Z Merdam: g
2015-06-15T01:40:33Z Merdam: e
2015-06-15T01:40:35Z Merdam: r
2015-06-15T01:40:37Z Merdam: s
2015-06-15T01:40:48Z dennis_: I almost wish they made channels impossible to index
2015-06-15T01:40:52Z dennis_: to prevent shit like this
2015-06-15T01:41:06Z nyef: Wouldn't quite help.
2015-06-15T01:41:41Z dennis_: can we ban him from the channel?
2015-06-15T01:42:32Z ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago
2015-06-15T01:42:59Z Zhivago has set mode +b *!*@200.79.252.182
2015-06-15T01:43:11Z nyef: Zhivago: Thank you!
2015-06-15T01:43:12Z Merdam [~lys@unaffiliated/zhivago] has been kicked from #lisp by Zhivago (Bye)
2015-06-15T01:43:16Z Zhivago: np
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2015-06-15T01:43:19Z Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago
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2015-06-15T02:35:15Z theos: heh
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2015-06-15T02:47:17Z drmeister: Is there an emacs command to find a file in a subdirectory with a particular name?
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2015-06-15T02:49:24Z drmeister: I'm blocked by all the find-xxx functions.
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2015-06-15T02:54:11Z drmeister: Now when I'm compiling my code with inlining on, it is compiling an effective method every time it inlines a function.
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2015-06-15T02:56:14Z drmeister: I thought effective-methods are compiled once and then cached.
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2015-06-15T02:58:17Z drmeister: It's this generic function that when evaluated is constantly recompiling an effective-method-function
2015-06-15T02:58:29Z drmeister: (defgeneric save-info (object) (:method-combination append :most-specific-last))
2015-06-15T02:58:59Z drmeister: Is there anything special about method-combination append that would cause the effective-method-function to be recreated every time save-info is called?
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2015-06-15T03:00:05Z Bike: not that i can think of
2015-06-15T03:00:06Z nyef: That might depend on your CLOS implementation.
2015-06-15T03:00:16Z nyef: Sounds like you need to do more debugging, unfortunately.
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2015-06-15T03:01:24Z Somnasper: Out of curiosity, can I ask what everyone here uses LISP for? I'm wondering if there are more using it for hobbyist reasons than career, and how many for scientific reasons within the first.
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2015-06-15T03:02:01Z theos: Somnasper only paul graham made money with lisp.
2015-06-15T03:03:02Z Somnasper: No more big LISP databases that need maintaining? It's been hard to get a picture of how much that's changed in recent years
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2015-06-15T03:03:22Z nyef: You're not interested in the people who are doing scientific things with lisp as part of their career?
2015-06-15T03:03:38Z theos: jokes aside, a lot of people use lisp for all sorts of things.
2015-06-15T03:03:41Z Somnasper: Also just curious how many people are using it for recreational purposes (e.g. games) vs. scientific calculation a la Julia
2015-06-15T03:04:11Z nyef: There are enough lisp gamers out there to have their own IRC channel.
2015-06-15T03:04:23Z Somnasper: nyef: I am! I find it all very interesting, I'm just curious whether anyone using it for nonscientific reasons would even be here
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2015-06-15T03:04:47Z drmeister: Hmm, I'll check and see what ECL does with append method-combinationl
2015-06-15T03:05:15Z Somnasper: nyef: I just assumed that meant LISP hobbyists who enjoyed gaming more than using LISP for games, since I can't find many recent LISP endeavors into gaming
2015-06-15T03:05:29Z Bike: you don't need to allcaps the name
2015-06-15T03:05:31Z Somnasper: *game-making
2015-06-15T03:05:50Z nyef: There are still some people making games with lisp.
2015-06-15T03:05:54Z Somnasper: Sorry, got into Lisp from reading old texts and it stuck
2015-06-15T03:06:15Z nyef: Some of them hobbyists, there are occasional pros.
2015-06-15T03:06:38Z Somnasper: Is there a good online resource for that? The Wiki I found looked dead
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2015-06-15T03:07:11Z Somnasper: Lots of libraries, not many products
2015-06-15T03:07:19Z theos: Somnasper have thou read "land of lisp"?
2015-06-15T03:07:36Z nyef: I don't know, I mostly don't keep up with the lisp game people.
2015-06-15T03:07:52Z nyef: It's a lot of work to keep a wiki reasonably spam-free, apparently.
2015-06-15T03:07:57Z Somnasper: theos: Yep, reading and working from it now!
2015-06-15T03:08:26Z Somnasper: Spam wasn't a problem, just lack of entries overall
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2015-06-15T03:08:50Z Somnasper: Plenty of how-to suggestions but little done with it
2015-06-15T03:09:05Z theos: http://lispgames.org
2015-06-15T03:09:29Z Somnasper: That's the one
2015-06-15T03:09:40Z Petit_Dejeuner_: #lispgames
2015-06-15T03:10:05Z Somnasper: I'll head there again then
2015-06-15T03:14:44Z Somnasper: So, that aside then, what projects are people here working on?
2015-06-15T03:15:25Z nyef: Most recently, I've been trying to figure out some UI stuff.
2015-06-15T03:16:06Z theos: and i have been trying to make a money making AI bot!
2015-06-15T03:16:41Z cheryllium: Somnasper: I've been coding lots of Lisp for my job with Genworks
2015-06-15T03:16:43Z Somnasper: Awesome!
2015-06-15T03:16:51Z drmeister: Hmm, ECL calls CLOS::EFFECTIVE-METHOD-FUNCTION every time I call a generic function with method-combination APPEND as well.
2015-06-15T03:16:52Z cheryllium: and today I made this just for fun http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/39tynj/easy_webpage_layouts_with_lisp/
2015-06-15T03:17:16Z drmeister: So it's the CLOS code that we share
2015-06-15T03:18:32Z Petit_Dejeuner_: theos, stock trading?
2015-06-15T03:18:53Z Somnasper: Huh, GenWorks Product link doesn't seem to work
2015-06-15T03:18:57Z theos: Petit_Dejeuner_ yup among other things
2015-06-15T03:19:18Z Somnasper: Yess, I love LISP for webpage building
2015-06-15T03:19:40Z Somnasper: nyef: What kind of UI?
2015-06-15T03:20:05Z Petit_Dejeuner_: theos, Are there even APIs available for that?
2015-06-15T03:20:23Z nyef: Somnasper: Are you familiar with CLIM?
2015-06-15T03:20:46Z theos: Petit_Dejeuner_ APIs for what?
2015-06-15T03:21:07Z Somnasper: Just googled it
2015-06-15T03:21:31Z Petit_Dejeuner_: theos, trading things online, eg stocks
2015-06-15T03:21:42Z nyef: Somnasper: Basically, I'm trying to put together my own CLIM implementation.
2015-06-15T03:22:11Z Somnasper: Not thrilled with the current one?
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2015-06-15T03:23:24Z Zhivago: Hmm, I wonder if it might not be better to mine CLIM for its useful innovations and then replace the rest with html5.
2015-06-15T03:23:42Z nyef: Not particularly, no. Plus I get to learn quite a bit while reimplementing it.
2015-06-15T03:24:15Z nyef: Zhivago: Start with the output-recording streams and work your way up.
2015-06-15T03:24:31Z theos: Petit_Dejeuner_ There are a lot of APIs for commercial software which i can use. but APIs arent a problem for what i am doing
2015-06-15T03:24:45Z drmeister: nyef: What function in SBCL builds an effective-method-function?
2015-06-15T03:25:06Z nyef: Zhivago: The heart of the entire thing is the output-recording and the inversion-of-control around the use of streams for event I/O.
2015-06-15T03:25:23Z drmeister: There are two get-XXX and five make-XXX where XXX is effective-method-functionYYY
2015-06-15T03:25:24Z nyef: drmeister: Something in src/pcl/. I'm not at all familiar with how all that works.
2015-06-15T03:25:48Z Somnasper: I hear you there, disappointment with Blender's FreeStyle is prompting to learn basic 3D programming to make my own pseudo-2D animation system
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2015-06-15T03:26:22Z drmeister: nyef: Thank you.
2015-06-15T03:26:55Z Somnasper: Was hoping I might be able to use Common Lisp for it when I learned about CEPL, but openFrameworks looks more practical after all. Guess I'll just stick to Lisp for my neural network and storytelling experiments
2015-06-15T03:28:20Z Somnasper: Still, for curiosity's sake I'll go against common sense for a little longer, I think. CEPL is really alluring
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2015-06-15T03:32:53Z theos: Petit_Dejeuner_ i should say that i will be writing my own api
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2015-06-15T03:35:21Z cheryllium: Somnasper: I just saw that earlier you were asking about using Lisp as hobby or career, for me it's both and I couldn't be happier about it
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2015-06-15T03:35:45Z drmeister: ECL byte-compiles these effective methods over and over again.  I'm doing full on JIT on them which is expensive.
2015-06-15T03:35:46Z Somnasper: cheryllium: Lucky!
2015-06-15T03:35:53Z drmeister: I'm just going to interpret them.
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2015-06-15T03:36:24Z cheryllium: I am always learning more, and my boss is like a mentor to me :)
2015-06-15T03:37:06Z Somnasper: That's wonderful! I'm still on the fringes, looking in and teaching myself things.
2015-06-15T03:37:20Z cheryllium: Enjoy! Lisp is a beautiful language
2015-06-15T03:37:46Z Somnasper: It truly is
2015-06-15T03:41:08Z Somnasper: Sorry to keep asking questions, but I was also wondering, has anyone made an emacs add-on that replaces parentheses with alternately colored blocks to indicate scope? I see a lot of people complaining about parentheses (though I personally love them), and that seems like an elegant solution
2015-06-15T03:42:18Z nyef: I have a better question: Has anyone made an emacs add-on that lets you know when you need more or fewer parenthesis when dealing with C/C++?
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2015-06-15T03:43:14Z pillton: Somnasper: Rainbow delimeters. You are better off using paredit in my opinion. I don't even see the parenthesis any more with paredit.
2015-06-15T03:43:45Z Somnasper: pillton:Thank you! I knew there had to be something
2015-06-15T03:43:52Z White_Flame: Somnasper: paredit is a structure editor, keeping things inline & balanced for you
2015-06-15T03:44:00Z nyef: I still see the parens, but I mostly don't pay attention to them.
2015-06-15T03:44:38Z pillton: nyef: Well, thats what I meant. They have low information content.
2015-06-15T03:44:44Z Somnasper: nyef: Why are C-language IDEs such pains about letting you know when you've missed a parenthesis
2015-06-15T03:45:58Z nyef: Somnasper: Why does C-language syntax lead to adding extra superfluous parenthesis around various things?
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2015-06-15T03:48:27Z Somnasper: nyef: Every attempt to get into a C language seems to thwart me
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2015-06-15T03:51:24Z Somnasper: nyef: So many little annoyances
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2015-06-15T04:07:32Z aeth: The only problem with paredit is that it is incomplete. It replaces some line-based operations, but not all, so it doesn't always keep everything balanced.
2015-06-15T04:07:52Z White_Flame: yeah
2015-06-15T04:07:55Z aeth: C-k will kill the s-exp instead of the line, but C-u 3 k kills 3 lines
2015-06-15T04:08:05Z aeth: There's also some issues with strings and comments.
2015-06-15T04:08:09Z White_Flame: there's some times where I have to drop into non-paredit mode to fix up some quotes or something
2015-06-15T04:08:23Z aeth: But it'a 90% ok and 10% I need to temporarily disable it to fix it
2015-06-15T04:09:22Z nyef: White_Flame: Your new prefix key is C-q
2015-06-15T04:09:33Z nyef: White_Flame: It inserts while preventing paredit from noticing.
2015-06-15T04:09:49Z White_Flame: ah
2015-06-15T04:09:57Z White_Flame: is there the same for delete?
2015-06-15T04:09:58Z aeth: I'd like to see more structure-based tools, maybe even a structure-based DVCS to replace git (ignoring whitespace is a feature not a bug, you won't have bikeshed painting fights over spaces/tabs; comments would be tough, though)
2015-06-15T04:09:59Z nyef: aeth: Same for you, actually.
2015-06-15T04:10:24Z nyef: White_Flame: Haven't found it yet, but you can insert the balancing character and then let paredit take care of the delete.
2015-06-15T04:10:48Z aeth: nyef: I still have to disable paredit in *scratch* to eval unless C-q C-j works
2015-06-15T04:11:12Z White_Flame: and paredit also prevents from searching the repl history by prefix
2015-06-15T04:11:19Z nyef: aeth: Ah, that? No, that would insert a literal newline.
2015-06-15T04:11:20Z White_Flame: because of adding the closing parens
2015-06-15T04:11:51Z nyef: aeth: you could re-bind something else to eval-print-last-sexp, though.
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2015-06-15T04:13:04Z nyef: Or even re-bind it back to C-j...
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2015-06-15T04:14:26Z aeth: Is there anything in paredit or emacs for removing a newline? It's easy to hit RET to line up the 2 to 1 in (+ 1 2), but it takes too many keystrokes to do the reverse
2015-06-15T04:14:59Z aeth: i.e. delete all the whitespace except one space between two things
2015-06-15T04:15:46Z nyef: Ah, yeah. There is.
2015-06-15T04:15:56Z aeth: (if I knew how to describe it concisely I probably could find it on Google)
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2015-06-15T04:16:24Z nyef: ... Now, what on earth was it?
2015-06-15T04:17:03Z aeth: C-backspace is almost it, but it would delete 1 in the example of (+ 1\n   2)
2015-06-15T04:17:07Z nyef: M-^
2015-06-15T04:17:17Z nyef: And C-u M-^
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2015-06-15T04:17:37Z nyef: One of them joins the current line to the previous, the other joins the next line to the current.
2015-06-15T04:18:01Z H4ns: nyef: nice, thanks!  now i only have to remember it
2015-06-15T04:18:08Z aeth: That is way too useful to be put behind ^, which is very hard to type on US keyboards
2015-06-15T04:18:13Z nyef: Heh. That's my problem with it as well. (-:
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2015-06-15T04:19:19Z aeth: I kind of want to bind M-^ to backspace :-P
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2015-06-15T04:21:19Z nyef: Changing the subject entirely, with NQ-CLIM I'm starting to have a need for things that aren't really sheet/pane/medium/geometry/frame/backend/port/whatever. Things like SETF* and things that are more behind-the-scenes implementation stuff, utility mixins and the like that aren't really for user code but simplify things internally.
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2015-06-15T04:21:39Z nyef: And I'm having trouble coming up with a good directory name to put all of this stuff into.
2015-06-15T04:22:14Z aeth: util?
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2015-06-15T04:23:06Z nyef: I find that I'm resisting "util", "utils", "utility", and "utilities" for some reason. Similarly with "sys" and "system".
2015-06-15T04:23:29Z nyef: I think it's partly because they are so thoroughly overloaded as terms.
2015-06-15T04:23:54Z nyef: And for "util" and friends, there's the question of "what if I need the name for something else, later?"
2015-06-15T04:23:59Z aeth: foo-util
2015-06-15T04:24:29Z aeth: this is lisp, make it 200 characters long with a million hyphens and have an easy short abbreviation
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2015-06-15T04:25:35Z aeth: As long as the short name isn't overloaded
2015-06-15T04:25:57Z nyef: Eh, dabbrev-expand to the rescue on that whole "short name" thing. d-:
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2015-06-15T04:28:49Z nyef: "support" also seems like a logical-but-poor choice for some reason.
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2015-06-15T04:35:20Z drmeister: It's faster to interpret those effective method functions than to compile and execute them.
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2015-06-15T04:38:34Z Somnasper: Does cl-opengl work for newer OpenGL implementations
2015-06-15T04:39:07Z aeth: Yes, but the examples are extremely dated
2015-06-15T04:39:52Z Somnasper: The official OpenGL tut warns that the latest implementation has a totally different way of doing things
2015-06-15T04:40:18Z nyef: Is it referring to the fixed-pipe vs. shader thing?
2015-06-15T04:40:20Z aeth: Latest? Uh oh, that tutorial may be extremely out of date
2015-06-15T04:40:35Z aeth: OpenGL 4 isn't that different from 3 afaim
2015-06-15T04:40:37Z aeth: *afaik
2015-06-15T04:40:55Z aeth: Just more shader features
2015-06-15T04:41:19Z Somnasper: http://www.opengl-tutorial.org/beginners-tutorials/tutorial-1-opening-a-window/#Forget_Everything
2015-06-15T04:41:45Z Somnasper: Yeah, an old OpenGL tut I was looking at said it was for OpenGL 2.something, so that's why I wondered
2015-06-15T04:41:55Z Bike: yeah, fixed function pipeline isn't happening no more. gotta get dat glsl
2015-06-15T04:42:15Z aeth: That's 3+
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2015-06-15T04:42:41Z aeth: What's great is Vulkan (formerly glnext) is going to change things again
2015-06-15T04:42:59Z aeth: So in a few years all of this will be outdated
2015-06-15T04:43:08Z Somnasper: Eeesh
2015-06-15T04:43:23Z Bike: the example on 3b's github uses quads, whoop
2015-06-15T04:43:25Z nyef: So, what's coming after shaders?
2015-06-15T04:43:58Z Bike: they'll just give you an FPGA and you have to provide the bitcode to make a GPU.
2015-06-15T04:44:08Z White_Flame: deep learning network that outputs final pixels
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2015-06-15T04:46:40Z aeth: nyef: Right now GLSL is the lowest level. Soon, it will be one level lower, to SPIR-V. GLSL will compile to SPIR-V.
2015-06-15T04:47:16Z aeth: On the API side, apparently a hello world will be hundreds of lines long and they will expect you to use libraries iirc
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2015-06-15T04:47:56Z aeth: They're changing the way graphics drivers work to put more of a burden on the programmer. Worse is better.
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2015-06-15T04:49:33Z nyef: ... I think I'll stick with fixed-pipe for a while longer, then. d-:
2015-06-15T04:51:06Z aeth: Technically, GLSL shaders will keep working so the GL 3 way of doing things won't be completely obsolete... except in the Lisp universe, where I'm sure most of us will want to ditch GLSL for something that uses s-expressions, macros, etc.
2015-06-15T04:53:25Z aeth: Except until all the new libraries are written I don't think there's any reason to use it over e.g. 3.3 where you can get more done in fewer lines.
2015-06-15T04:54:04Z Somnasper: Eesh
2015-06-15T04:54:20Z aeth: http://vulkan-tutorial.com/
2015-06-15T04:55:03Z aeth: This site had basically all of the available information on Vulkan as links a while back. If it's still being kept up to date, it should be useful
2015-06-15T04:55:39Z Somnasper: Do things have to be coded in C at lowest for practicality? Lisp to binary would be too ineffective?
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2015-06-15T04:55:48Z aeth: On the plus side, maybe "minimal driver overhead" means I can go back to nouveau
2015-06-15T04:56:37Z White_Flame: Somnasper: the interface to OpenGL is C-based, so those functions need to be called that way
2015-06-15T04:57:23Z Somnasper: White Flame: Yeah, just wondered if that was the only limitation
2015-06-15T04:57:32Z White_Flame: Lisp does compile to binary internally
2015-06-15T04:57:52Z Somnasper: How difficult would it be to just make an alternative to OpenGL in Lisp?
2015-06-15T04:58:10Z White_Flame: I haven't done much FFI, but I think C library calls might not require a stump function, but obviously do need to do some parameter marshalling
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2015-06-15T04:59:25Z Somnasper: White_Flame: Isn't binary compiled from Common Lisp slightly slower than that compiled from C, though?
2015-06-15T04:59:29Z aeth: Somnasper: Impossible because of the nature of the GPU market. You wouldn't be able to get nearly as many features on an nvidia card as something implemented in the official nvidia drivers (I suspect AMD is similar)
2015-06-15T04:59:56Z Somnasper: aeth: Ah, thanks
2015-06-15T05:00:07Z White_Flame: Somnasper: no
2015-06-15T05:00:26Z White_Flame: To perform the same functionality in C as Lisp does with its binary ABI, you'd likely win with Lisp
2015-06-15T05:00:33Z aeth: Unless Vulkan's focus on minimal drivers changes things, you will have to at some level rely on a binary blob in your kernel to get all the features, rather than a reverse engineered subset. Except Intel, I think.
2015-06-15T05:01:08Z Somnasper: Weird, why does anyone use C++ over Lisp citing reasons of speed, then, if both can be compiled?
2015-06-15T05:01:32Z White_Flame: because C and C++ are by default quite fast
2015-06-15T05:01:57Z White_Flame: whereas to match the speed in Lisp, you generally need to give enough type information to reduce runtime type testing
2015-06-15T05:02:02Z aeth: People use C++ because people use C++. Network effect. Very fast libraries for everything you need.
2015-06-15T05:02:28Z Somnasper: So that is all it is
2015-06-15T05:02:36Z aeth: There are few gsming libraries for Lisp and they're all very incomplete afaik.
2015-06-15T05:02:38Z White_Flame: and people want low-level control in order to manually manipulate the speed, even though Java will be faster in heavy dispatch
2015-06-15T05:02:39Z Somnasper: Thanks, that was bugging me
2015-06-15T05:02:43Z aeth: *gaming
2015-06-15T05:03:05Z Somnasper: Java? I didn't think Java had any speed advantages at all
2015-06-15T05:03:15Z White_Flame: Java inlines virtual function calls
2015-06-15T05:03:27Z White_Flame: that by itself is a massive speed advantage for complex code bases
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2015-06-15T05:04:27Z White_Flame: C++ will spend all its time looking up vtable dispatches and creating/destroying stack frames
2015-06-15T05:04:31Z nyef: Really, it depends on your JVM.
2015-06-15T05:04:45Z aeth: White_Flame: Does Lisp do that or just for tail calls?
2015-06-15T05:04:46Z White_Flame: yeah, the Oracle one in particular
2015-06-15T05:04:54Z nyef: JVMs sucked quite a bit before Sun bought out a Smalltalk company for their VM technology.
2015-06-15T05:04:55Z White_Flame: aeth: Lisp doesn't inline tail calls
2015-06-15T05:04:55Z Somnasper: What does that mean, exactly? (ignore me if I'm getting annoying)
2015-06-15T05:05:13Z Somnasper: whoop sorry, missed your later mssages
2015-06-15T05:05:16Z Somnasper: nvm
2015-06-15T05:05:19Z aeth: White_Flame: What's the tail call optimization then?
2015-06-15T05:05:39Z White_Flame: aeth: inlining means the code is copied into the local scope of the caller, and all compiled together
2015-06-15T05:05:43Z nyef: Lisp CAN inline tail calls, depending on the compiler.
2015-06-15T05:05:50Z White_Flame: thus optimizations can work on the combined code, isntead of per-function
2015-06-15T05:05:55Z nyef: The tail-call optimization is about not allocating an extra stack frame.
2015-06-15T05:06:22Z Somnasper: Is it really worth using Java with all the vulnerabilities these days?
2015-06-15T05:06:28Z White_Flame: right, tail-call avoids extra stack foo, but they remain 2 separate functions, separately compiled & optimized
2015-06-15T05:06:57Z White_Flame: Somnasper: Java is a massively boilerplate heavy language.  It's suited to large development teams
2015-06-15T05:07:37Z White_Flame: and it has a huge library ecosystem; that's the big benefit Clojure glommed onto in order to gain popularity
2015-06-15T05:08:09Z Somnasper: Yeah, I was kind of disappointed Clojure didn't have an LLVM implementation
2015-06-15T05:08:29Z Somnasper: That reminds me, has anyone here tried Julia?
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2015-06-15T05:15:54Z Somnasper: No one?
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2015-06-15T05:17:18Z White_Flame: no one currently active, it seems
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2015-06-15T05:20:31Z Somnasper: It's pretty interesting
2015-06-15T05:20:33Z Somnasper: http://p-cos.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-lispers-first-impression-of-julia.html
2015-06-15T05:20:58Z Somnasper: It's all precompiled, so it's slow as mud to load up but then really fast after
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2015-06-15T05:21:23Z Somnasper: Sadly, this means it sucks for apps - it's designed specifically for scientific simulations
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2015-06-15T05:46:43Z mea-culpa: Norvig has public lectures :3
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2015-06-15T07:39:29Z pjb: minion: memo for Somnapster: for colorful parentheses have a look at http://lemonodor.com/archives/001207.html
2015-06-15T07:39:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Somnapster when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-06-15T07:39:37Z pjb: pillton: for colorful parentheses have a look at http://lemonodor.com/archives/001207.html
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2015-06-15T07:53:11Z pjb: Comparing programming languages with fizzbuzz (lisp vs. java): http://paste.lisp.org/+37O2  ;-)
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2015-06-15T07:58:53Z Shinmera: pjb: That joke is too cruel for me
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2015-06-15T07:59:28Z pjb: Shinmera: that's nothing.  Try to print the sources out, and display it in your favorite CS university hall :-)
2015-06-15T08:00:29Z p_l: for me, too cruel was when one of the professors had to dumb down the assignment because the students couldn't figure a way to synchronize two different processes
2015-06-15T08:00:40Z Shinmera: p_l: :(
2015-06-15T08:00:47Z pjb: The java files should take 23 pages, at 60 lines per page.
2015-06-15T08:01:12Z Shinmera is writing a summary for his parallel programming lecture right now
2015-06-15T08:01:24Z p_l: Shinmera: the task was to pass around ~100M of numbers, using 1MB buffer of shared memory between two independent processes
2015-06-15T08:01:43Z p_l: it had to be dumbed down to doing so between two threads in one process, so they could use pthread mutexes :(
2015-06-15T08:01:45Z Shinmera: It's a mandatory first-year lecture at ETH, so I guess at least some universities get a thing or two right.
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2015-06-15T08:02:51Z pjb: There are tons of IPC that can be used!
2015-06-15T08:03:11Z pjb: shared memory, semaphores, pipes, sockets, even files!
2015-06-15T08:03:20Z p_l: pjb: yes
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2015-06-15T08:04:12Z p_l: pjb: they were given a shared memory buffer, however they could use anything in POSIX to synchronize, the use of shared memory buffer for transport was the only hard requirement, essentially telling them to implement a pipe
2015-06-15T08:04:40Z p_l: that said, the most robust solution probably didn't dawn on anyone (ok, maybe two~three :( )
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2015-06-15T08:13:16Z p_l: pjb: btw, isn't it sad that most devs seem unaware of IPC other than sockets and (maybe) files?
2015-06-15T08:15:06Z Shinmera: To be honest I wish we could do away with humans for IPC.
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2015-06-15T08:18:37Z White_Flame: sockets and files can be agnostic to which machine they're running on
2015-06-15T08:19:25Z loz: yep, and things like 9p even remove difference between files and sockets
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2015-06-15T08:20:14Z p_l: White_Flame: The problem is that sometimes you don't really need the agnosticism, or go too far in trying it (like D-Bus protocol, which for unfathomable reasons includes endianess info in each packet instead of settling on one standard endianess)
2015-06-15T08:21:03Z p_l: loz: my main issue with 9p is that even with extensions there is no way to emulate inotify on it :(
2015-06-15T08:21:19Z p_l: at least not in a way supported by any current client, the protocol itself could handle it just fine
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2015-06-15T08:28:34Z flash-: In CommonQt, is it normal that you cannot update a function while the Window is being displayed, or is there some way around that?
2015-06-15T08:29:11Z Shinmera: You can update the function no problem.
2015-06-15T08:29:53Z Shinmera: The question is about /what kind of function/ you're updating. If it's an initialiser function then obviously you won't see the effect. Adding or removing class options such as slots and so forth also won't work on existing instances.
2015-06-15T08:31:26Z flash-: The problem for me is that it does not work. On Windows, it tends to crash SBCL. I have to admit I didn't try too much on Linux, but it didn't seem to work, either.
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2015-06-15T08:31:51Z Shinmera: "does not work" is the most infuriating description one could possibly come up with when explaining an issue in programming.
2015-06-15T08:32:11Z Shinmera: What are you doing, why are you doing it, how are you doing it. Without knowing that nobody but wizards will be able to help you out.
2015-06-15T08:33:00Z flash-: The first thing I wanted to know is whether this is the normal state. It is not, so my first question is already answered, and for that the description was god enough.
2015-06-15T08:33:49Z Shinmera: The function dispatch happens on the lisp side. Lisp allows you to do function redefinition.
2015-06-15T08:33:57Z Shinmera: So it should follow naturally that you can do it.
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2015-06-15T08:35:24Z flash-: That's what I thought at first. Then I thought it had something to do with the Qt main loop having to run in the main thread, and that being a problem with Slime/SBCL on Windows.
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2015-06-15T08:35:51Z Shinmera: If the main loop isn't in your main thread then it won't even launch.
2015-06-15T08:36:32Z Shinmera: Calling drawing methods and similar that need to be in Qt's main thread can also lead to crashes.
2015-06-15T08:36:45Z Shinmera: if you do it from a non-main thread, that is.
2015-06-15T08:37:54Z flash-:  Yes, I know. But sometimes Qt starts putting out error messages while it is running about something not being in main thread. (I know this is non-descriptive, but I'm not prepared right now for a better description, as I only wanted to find out the general question right now).
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2015-06-15T08:42:38Z p_l: on windows, it just needs to be in "GUI" thread, "thread #0" is only required on OSX. X11 is a bit similar to windows, but the code is more obvious iirc
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2015-06-15T08:53:18Z flash-: I think I already found my answer: I have to start the main loop with C-c j, and have to update functions with C-x e. I had always tried either one, or the other.
2015-06-15T08:53:35Z flash-: Now, it is logical, of course.
2015-06-15T08:53:42Z Shinmera: flash-: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg9oxQKthjo
2015-06-15T08:56:49Z flash-: That's nice.
2015-06-15T08:57:06Z Shinmera: Too bad my proof of it working took too long to process.
2015-06-15T08:57:16Z Shinmera shakes his fist at youtube
2015-06-15T08:57:39Z flash-: Unfortunately, the whole SBCL + Windows + Qt thing is still quite shaky.
2015-06-15T08:57:50Z Shinmera: It is.
2015-06-15T08:58:05Z Shinmera: I'm working on fixing that, but unfortunately windows is painful to deal with.
2015-06-15T08:58:36Z flash-: Unfortunately I don't have a choice about using Windows.
2015-06-15T08:58:41Z Shinmera: I have to remember to write the KDE guys today, hopefully I can finally get SmokeQt 64x worked out.
2015-06-15T08:58:41Z pjb: Shinmera: nope,"does not work" is very easy to debug: "did you try to shut it down and restart again?"
2015-06-15T09:02:23Z flash-: The prebuilt Windows Smoke binaries are missing the part that is responsible for dynamically loading .ui files, so you have to build the whole GUI manually.
2015-06-15T09:02:42Z flash-: And having read about your ordeal I didn't even try to build it myself.
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2015-06-15T09:03:04Z Shinmera: I agree with stassats on that point that writing a .ui => lisp compiler would be a better idea.
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2015-06-15T09:03:37Z Shinmera: But, it takes time as all things do, and other things take priority at the moment.
2015-06-15T09:04:08Z flash-: Yes, but as long as that does not exist, loading is the only option.
2015-06-15T09:04:38Z Shinmera: I know. I'm just explaining why there's no way to handle .ui things right now.
2015-06-15T09:05:10Z flash-: Other than using eql.
2015-06-15T09:05:19Z flash-: Yes, I was replying to your first sentence.
2015-06-15T09:06:14Z Shinmera: On the other hand, you'd be very welcome to contribute such a feature of course :)
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2015-06-15T09:07:00Z flash-: My problem is: Would I want to use this in its current state for a hobby project? Yes, definitely. Do I want to bet our company on it? Err...
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2015-06-15T09:07:32Z Shinmera: Right.
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2015-06-15T09:09:28Z Shinmera: Sadly I'm not a wizard, so while I'd love to be able to say that native GUIs are fantastic in CL right now and just make it happen by snapping my fingers, I can't.
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2015-06-15T09:09:49Z Shinmera: It'll take time, but I'm at least somewhat confident that we can get there some day.
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2015-06-15T09:11:57Z flash-: I agree, and especially in combination with Clasp, it will rock. But it'll be too late for us. :(
2015-06-15T09:12:54Z Shinmera: I can't say either way on that. If you start with CommonQt now I can say that while you certainly would be able to deploy it, the cost of maintaining it down the road might bite you.
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2015-06-15T09:13:56Z Shinmera: But on the other hand, things might get better quickly enough for you to be able to catch on.
2015-06-15T09:14:21Z Shinmera: Then again, I'm not a business person at all, so my advice on this is probably not worth much.
2015-06-15T09:15:58Z flash-: Either way it's a gamble, and I'm not much of a gambler.
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2015-06-15T09:17:05Z Shinmera: So is everything else, really.
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2015-06-15T09:17:24Z Shinmera: In my scenario with Parasol the choice was obvious because you can't get tablet input in a browser.
2015-06-15T09:17:47Z Shinmera: And CommonQt is the most mature of UI bindings, so it was the only real choice left.
2015-06-15T09:18:22Z Somnasper: Sorry to butt in, you mean like a Wacom?
2015-06-15T09:18:27Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-06-15T09:18:37Z Somnasper: Because I actually wrote a JavaScript program that uses the Wacom web API
2015-06-15T09:18:48Z Shinmera: That isn't available on Linux afaik.
2015-06-15T09:18:56Z Somnasper: It's not the most reliable API, but it definitely works
2015-06-15T09:19:16Z Somnasper: Should be cross-platform, worked on Windows and Mac anyway
2015-06-15T09:19:30Z Shinmera: It needs a browser plugin from what I know, and there isn't one on Linux.
2015-06-15T09:19:39Z Shinmera: Wacom generally doesn't care about Linux.
2015-06-15T09:20:12Z Cthulhux: no one should care about linux.
2015-06-15T09:20:17Z Somnasper: You can test here http://www.wacomeng.com/web/
2015-06-15T09:20:41Z Shinmera: Somnasper: "Web plugin is NOT loaded"
2015-06-15T09:20:44Z Somnasper: There's a separate Linux API provided in a link there, for desktop use
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2015-06-15T09:20:57Z Somnasper: darn:(
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2015-06-15T09:21:15Z Shinmera: Everything Wacom on Linux was done by OSS people.
2015-06-15T09:21:41Z Somnasper: Oh weird, I'm getting it too
2015-06-15T09:21:45Z Somnasper: Might be a browser update issue
2015-06-15T09:21:55Z Shinmera: Anyway, I wouldn't really want a graphics application in a browser anyway.
2015-06-15T09:21:58Z Somnasper: Yep
2015-06-15T09:21:59Z Somnasper: https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/6213033
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2015-06-15T11:27:10Z loz: are there any other functions like room for resources introspection?
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2015-06-15T12:27:30Z pjb: loz: check clhs.
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2015-06-15T12:27:47Z pjb: clhs 25.2
2015-06-15T12:27:47Z specbot: The Environment Dictionary: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/c_enviro.htm
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2015-06-15T12:30:37Z Shinmera: loz: On SBCL there's sb-ext:dynamic-space-size, sb-kernel:dynamic-usage
2015-06-15T12:31:34Z loz: pjb: Shinmera thanks
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2015-06-15T12:47:02Z k-stz: hey #lisp, I'm explaning macros to a friend and he is concerned that "creating a DSL creates overhead" and that the programmers that wish to work with you first need to understand the new syntax. Suggesting a doubleedged sword: on the one hand abstracting code away, making it easier to read, maintain but on the other hand with an entry ticket being the understanding of the makros used.
2015-06-15T12:47:25Z k-stz: ommiting the fact that macros are hard to write. Some real life _experience_ would be great on this topic
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2015-06-15T12:47:59Z pjb: k-stz: the point with abstraction, is that you don't need to know the implementation, to be able to understand it and to use it.
2015-06-15T12:48:15Z pjb: macros are not hard to write, they're just like other functions.
2015-06-15T12:48:21Z lieven: the same argument applies to functions. you need to know all their names and the arguments they expect and their preconditions. it's surely much easier just to write everything inline from scratch
2015-06-15T12:48:30Z digiorgi:  k-stz: compiletime overhead online
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2015-06-15T12:48:34Z digiorgi: only*
2015-06-15T12:48:54Z pjb: k-stz: and normally, you would introduce Domain Specific Languages only for existing and known _domains_.
2015-06-15T12:48:55Z k-stz: digiorgi: sorry misphrasing, didn't mean to delve into efficiency there
2015-06-15T12:49:07Z pjb: k-stz: that is, there is already a known theory behind those abstractions.
2015-06-15T12:49:20Z Shinmera: k-stz: As lieven said, that line of reasoning is completely absurd. Functions save the same purpose of abstraction. You know what it does, you don't have to know /how/ it does it.
2015-06-15T12:50:14Z loz: k-stz: how is that different from understanding your utils library, your classes hierarchy, etc?
2015-06-15T12:50:14Z loz: even from understanding your coding style
2015-06-15T12:50:37Z k-stz: fair and intuitive point (its an abstraction, no need to understand the implementation, just like functions), but does someone have some reallife experience? Preferably on a collaborative project
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2015-06-15T12:50:57Z pjb: k-stz: well, I'm lying, of course, you would also invent new domains, to easy the resolution of your problem.  But since the theory of those domains would be elaborated and _documented_, there would be no difficulty in understanding it even without having to look at the source of the macros or functions used to implement it.
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2015-06-15T12:51:53Z Shinmera: k-stz: I use a lot of libraries and read a lot of code. Does that count as "real life experience"?
2015-06-15T12:51:54Z pjb: k-stz: watch: Alan Kay "Programming and Scaling" 2011 http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/
2015-06-15T12:52:01Z loz: and nobody restricts newcomers from checking out sources of macros
2015-06-15T12:52:19Z pjb: that's the advantage of macros, over say, writing a new compiler.
2015-06-15T12:52:29Z pjb: Try to understand swift reading the source of the swift compiler!
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2015-06-15T12:53:26Z k-stz: Shinmera: I agree with working alone I didn't have much problem. But maybe because the libraries are usually well written. That's why I stressed the aspect of collaboration
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2015-06-15T12:56:04Z Shinmera: The problem is, as usual, not inherent to macros, but solely dependant on how well people write their code.
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2015-06-15T12:56:21Z Shinmera: You can write buttugly and completely insane macros that will render your code base unreadable
2015-06-15T12:56:38Z Shinmera: Or you can write nice ones that provide sensible abstractions and make your code easier to read because it becomes simpler and less cluttered.
2015-06-15T12:57:50Z Shinmera: The people that are afraid of abstractions strike me as those that get hurt a lot by their own mistakes because they don't really know how to write sensible interfaces in their programs.
2015-06-15T12:58:06Z pjb: k-stz: also you have to consider that usually there is not a very high proportion of macros. For examples, macros/functions in CL is less than 10%.
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2015-06-15T13:02:11Z k-stz: pjb: right, I also like your argument about DSL being usually well defined prior to being implemented. Suggesting an intuitive usage. And again reinforced by the idea that its the programmers ability that makes the macro useful
2015-06-15T13:02:21Z k-stz: thanks for the input all
2015-06-15T13:02:55Z k-stz friend became weary of the topic once the "function just as hard to use"-argument was introduced :b
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2015-06-15T13:04:17Z loz: k-stz: why do you want to discuss it with him
2015-06-15T13:04:21Z Shinmera: In my experience it's a waste of time to try and convince people. Just continue showing or mentioning neat stuff and let curiosity do its work.
2015-06-15T13:04:44Z loz: ye, do you want to keep friendship or not? :D
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2015-06-15T13:05:17Z k-stz: loz: he was like "ok, but why do we discuss this" at this moment I realized that _I_ am the one most interested in this topic
2015-06-15T13:06:01Z k-stz: Shinmera: passion gets the better of us I guess, being a biblesalesman and such
2015-06-15T13:06:22Z pjb: IMO, there's only two times to learn lisp: either as your first programming language, or as you last programming language.
2015-06-15T13:06:42Z pjb: So we should probably concentrate on young people.
2015-06-15T13:06:53Z Shinmera: Lisp is neither my first nor my last.
2015-06-15T13:06:59Z loz: pjb: nice, i'll quote this if you don't mind :)
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2015-06-15T13:07:03Z pjb: go ahead.
2015-06-15T13:07:16Z pjb: Shinmera: that's because you're compromising.
2015-06-15T13:07:41Z Shinmera: pjb: Not really. Learning new languages is an effective way of seeing new viewpoints.
2015-06-15T13:07:51Z pjb: But if I write a Haskell program someday, I'm sure it'll never become my main programming language, and all the others are just jobs now.
2015-06-15T13:08:17Z pjb: Shinmera: you're seeing new viewpoints with each new macro in lisp.
2015-06-15T13:08:25Z k-stz: pjb: haha, love it
2015-06-15T13:08:33Z Shinmera: If you say so :shrug:
2015-06-15T13:08:33Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾
2015-06-15T13:08:38Z lieven: pjb: why pick Haskell as an example? I'm dabbling with it a bit at the moment.
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2015-06-15T13:09:00Z pjb: Because that's the only one that would seem to offer some new stuff compared to Common Lisp.
2015-06-15T13:09:23Z loz: pjb: not really, rebol/red have something too
2015-06-15T13:09:42Z lieven: good point. funny enough they try their own variant of macros with Template Haskell.
2015-06-15T13:09:48Z pjb: Implementable easily as a CL library.
2015-06-15T13:10:02Z loz: pjb: rebol?
2015-06-15T13:10:09Z pjb: Yes, I'd say.
2015-06-15T13:10:16Z loz: hm
2015-06-15T13:10:40Z loz: ye, maybe you are right, sounds like my next language learning project
2015-06-15T13:11:24Z pjb: No problem, have fun.  All I'm saying, is that if you have to write some consequent system, you will do it in Common Lisp.
2015-06-15T13:11:53Z loz: their maniacal dsl for everything looks promising when you try rebol's guid
2015-06-15T13:11:53Z loz: gui*
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2015-06-15T13:21:35Z Cthulhux: penis
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2015-06-15T13:24:24Z flip214: Xach: ^^ bit of education, please?
2015-06-15T13:24:36Z flip214: thanks a lot...
2015-06-15T13:24:42Z Xach: That is up to the state or the parents, not me.
2015-06-15T13:25:01Z pjb: No, bite of education :-)
2015-06-15T13:25:08Z Xach: Cthulhux: wrong channel for such things
2015-06-15T13:26:14Z flip214: ach, not what I thought of. but you seem to be right, was just a slip of fat fingers...
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2015-06-15T13:35:02Z dim: is there a "trival" lib of sorts for Unix signal handling?
2015-06-15T13:35:25Z dim: ahah, QL tells me to have a look at trivial-signal
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2015-06-15T13:35:40Z oleo: morning
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2015-06-15T13:40:49Z oleo: why are you interested in too trivial things.....
2015-06-15T13:40:50Z oleo: lol
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2015-06-15T13:44:45Z dim: well do you know what trivial- usually means for CL libs?
2015-06-15T13:45:03Z oleo: ?
2015-06-15T13:45:15Z dim: yeah, ok
2015-06-15T13:45:19Z oleo: no
2015-06-15T13:45:22Z oleo: not really
2015-06-15T13:45:27Z dim: I wasn't sure about your line of humour ;-)
2015-06-15T13:45:38Z oleo: ;-)
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2015-06-15T13:45:51Z oleo: good!
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2015-06-15T13:46:02Z dim: so it usually means that the lib is providing a common API to use implementation specific features, typically ones that didn't make it to the standard
2015-06-15T13:46:11Z dim: bordeaux-thread is such a trivial lib
2015-06-15T13:46:40Z dim: it doesn't implement threading, it exposes all the different APIs from CCL, SBCL, ECL, LW and others in a unified way
2015-06-15T13:47:10Z dim: trivial-signal would expose each implementation's Unix signal capabilities into a unified API too
2015-06-15T13:48:01Z Xach: I am not fond of that running joke but I don't know of a better option
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2015-06-15T13:49:01Z dim: well naming trivial- something that isn't meant to implement anything else than a portable API isn't that bad
2015-06-15T13:49:18Z dim: your choice of portable-signal or trivial-signal? or something else?
2015-06-15T13:50:01Z oleo: trivial-shell
2015-06-15T13:50:07Z oleo: trivial-time
2015-06-15T13:50:39Z loz: my choice is to write code, not to debate on naming =)
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2015-06-15T13:51:03Z oleo: i only seen some only, haven't looked deeper, and there were some errors happening because of that trivial-time stuff.....
2015-06-15T13:51:52Z dim: oh that's superb: (count #\Newline (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (ql:system-apropos "trivial"))) --> 42
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2015-06-15T14:03:11Z Cymew: Have anyone here done any profiling on a running system, tweaked the code and restarted? I'm curious about possibilities for dynamic debugging.
2015-06-15T14:03:17Z kami: Hello #lisp
2015-06-15T14:04:08Z loz: do you mean something beyond usual symbols redefinition?
2015-06-15T14:04:44Z H4ns: Cymew: i do that all the time - Run profiler, look at results, change code, rerun, all from within one repl session.
2015-06-15T14:05:13Z loz: H4ns: what profiler do you use?
2015-06-15T14:05:37Z H4ns: loz: mostly the deterministic profiler built into slime.
2015-06-15T14:06:04Z Cymew: loz: It's the profiling step I'm most unsure about. The latter part I'm afmiliar with.
2015-06-15T14:06:08Z Cymew: H4ns: I'm not very familiar with the profiler. Any best practice to share?
2015-06-15T14:06:58Z H4ns: Cymew: the best practice is to use it.  the deterministic profiler is easy to use, but it only works when you have a rough idea where your pain points are.
2015-06-15T14:07:21Z loz: H4ns: are you profiling most called functions for a package?
2015-06-15T14:07:26Z H4ns: Cymew: M-x slime-profile-package / slime-profile-report
2015-06-15T14:07:36Z H4ns: loz: ^
2015-06-15T14:07:37Z Cymew: H4ns: Right. ok.
2015-06-15T14:08:02Z loz: just tried it, looks nice
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2015-06-15T14:10:56Z Cymew: Thanks for the hint. I has actually not even though of the slime layer...
2015-06-15T14:13:20Z oGMo: also profiling COMMON-LISP that is problematic heh
2015-06-15T14:13:25Z pjb: trivial conotes a level of simplicity and unsophistication.
2015-06-15T14:13:28Z oGMo: "that way"
2015-06-15T14:13:47Z pjb: you could say kiss- instead of trivial-.
2015-06-15T14:13:55Z pjb: (keep it simple stupid)
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2015-06-15T16:00:31Z otjura: I have slime sbcl repl sometimes getting "stuck". it suddenly says "text is read only"
2015-06-15T16:01:23Z oleo: you touched some emacs keys it seems......
2015-06-15T16:01:35Z oleo: there's one for making the buffers read-only
2015-06-15T16:01:56Z oleo: you can make read-write again, but don't ask me for the keys....
2015-06-15T16:02:17Z Xach: otjura: that happens for me sometimes when i place my cursor within the prompt
2015-06-15T16:02:21Z Xach: otjura: haven't seen it otherwise
2015-06-15T16:03:00Z oleo: there are some mouse-avoidance modes too.....
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2015-06-15T16:03:14Z oleo: huehuehue
2015-06-15T16:03:38Z otjura: strangely just doing C-x C-s and canceling makes it accessible again
2015-06-15T16:03:54Z oleo: jep
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2015-06-15T16:04:07Z oleo: C-x C-q should make it read-only
2015-06-15T16:04:19Z oleo: and C-x C-s read-write again
2015-06-15T16:04:45Z oleo: the same holds for konsole in kdm for example, only difference the keys being C-q and C-s only
2015-06-15T16:04:59Z oleo: it makes the konsole quiet
2015-06-15T16:05:03Z oleo: takes no input
2015-06-15T16:05:13Z oleo: until you hit a C-s again
2015-06-15T16:05:26Z otjura: umm.. c-x c-s is save. typing c-x c-q is enable/disable read-only
2015-06-15T16:05:35Z oleo: ah ok
2015-06-15T16:05:37Z oleo: jep
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2015-06-15T16:15:33Z emaczen: I'm looking for the ccl and cocoa asd files to use in my dependency list in my .asd file.
2015-06-15T16:16:00Z emaczen: Currently, lisp is telling me that it can't find these packages, and my solution is to add these paths to my source-registry
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2015-06-15T16:36:52Z emaczen: How can I add :ccl and :cocoa as dependencies to an asdf system?
2015-06-15T16:37:32Z Xach: emaczen: adding the paths to your registry is a good option.
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2015-06-15T16:37:41Z emaczen: I can't find the paths
2015-06-15T16:39:12Z Xach: emaczen: Oh. I don't think there's a ccl.asd or cocoa.asd file at all.
2015-06-15T16:39:24Z Xach: emaczen: I believe you usually use REQUIRE for cocoa in ccl.
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2015-06-15T16:39:57Z emaczen: Xach: So I should put (require :cocoa) at the top of my asd file?
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2015-06-15T16:40:39Z Xach: emaczen: I think you can express it in the system definition with :require somewhere. I'm not sure exactly where, sorry.
2015-06-15T16:41:49Z pjb: emaczen: I wrote a cocoa.lisp file that (require :cocoa) so I may have files depending on it.
2015-06-15T16:42:23Z Xach: emaczen: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html describes it somehow
2015-06-15T16:42:28Z pjb: emaczen: but notice that quicklisp doesn't do ccl, only sbcl, so such systems must conditionalize out ccl specific files, and provide at least some stub for successful compilation on sbcl.
2015-06-15T16:43:03Z Xach: quicklisp does do ccl. it does not do things that are ccl-exclusive.
2015-06-15T16:43:07Z Xach: or sbcl-exclusive.
2015-06-15T16:43:21Z oleo: is it not :depends ?
2015-06-15T16:44:10Z pjb: emaczen: cf. https://gitlab.com/patchwork/mclgui/blob/master/mclgui.asd (grep for cocoa)
2015-06-15T16:44:30Z pjb: emaczen: but this example is not under quicklisp (yet?).
2015-06-15T16:45:13Z pjb: Xach: I mean, you can get published on quicklisp if you have a ccl-only system; it must compile on sbcl!
2015-06-15T16:45:41Z pjb: Sometimes, it is meaningless to run on sbcl.
2015-06-15T16:45:59Z Xach: pjb: If it is ccl-only, I will not accept it.
2015-06-15T16:46:36Z pjb: yes. This is what I refered.
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2015-06-15T16:47:14Z Xach: I don't see how both what I wrote and what you wrote can be true, sorry.
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2015-06-15T16:47:38Z Xach: I could see if you wrote "you can't get published on quicklisp", but not as written.
2015-06-15T16:48:15Z pjb: Indeed, I meant "can't" not "can". Mistyped, sorry.
2015-06-15T16:48:33Z Xach: ok
2015-06-15T16:49:23Z emaczen:  pjb: "cocoa" does not exist in that file
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2015-06-15T16:54:31Z pjb: oops
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2015-06-15T16:55:21Z pjb: It's in the development branch: https://gitlab.com/patchwork/mclgui/blob/refacto-views/cocoa.lisp
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2015-06-15T16:55:33Z pjb: I should merge back…
2015-06-15T16:56:20Z pjb: so check this asd rather: https://gitlab.com/patchwork/mclgui/blob/refacto-views/mclgui.asd
2015-06-15T16:56:22Z emaczen: so *features* is a CCL specific thing?
2015-06-15T16:56:47Z pjb: no, it's CL.
2015-06-15T16:57:23Z pjb: Here the problem is that the cocoa module in ccl doesn't put any keyword on *features*, so I do it myself,to be able to #+cocoa in the rest of the source when needed.
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2015-06-15T17:02:54Z emaczen: Thanks pjb: I think I've passed this now.
2015-06-15T17:03:13Z pjb: ok
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2015-06-15T17:33:11Z loz1: is it ok to use defmethod without defgeneric?
2015-06-15T17:34:49Z dlowe: loz1: it's defined behavior, but you may want to specify a defgeneric anyway
2015-06-15T17:35:35Z dlowe: without a defgeneric, the compiler will deterministically guess what the generic specification is supposed to look like
2015-06-15T17:35:38Z nyef: loz1: It has defined semantics, but they can be somewhat unexpected if you use DEFGENERIC afterwards. It's usually better to use DEFGENERIC first.
2015-06-15T17:36:29Z loz1 just found this in cl-xmpp
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2015-06-15T18:22:12Z drmeister: The talk I gave at google last week is now online:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X69_42Mj-g
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2015-06-15T18:52:34Z reb`: drmeister: Great talk
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2015-06-15T19:28:41Z pjb: drmeister: watched.  My comment: you should /nick superman ;-)
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2015-06-15T19:32:45Z drmeister: reb`, pjb: Thanks - that's me - that's my life work up to this point.
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2015-06-15T19:34:15Z drmeister said that more for his own benefit - he's having a rough day.
2015-06-15T19:34:22Z drmeister: :-)
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2015-06-15T19:39:51Z emaczen: How can I cache the compilation of (require :cocoa)
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2015-06-15T19:43:27Z k-stz: drmeister: that's awesome
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2015-06-15T19:45:34Z pjb: emaczen: If you have write access to some ccl directory, it will be cached, but it otherwise takes a long time to load.  The only way would be to save an image. eg. If you run Clozure CL.app instead of ccl, you will have :cocoa already loaded.
2015-06-15T19:46:05Z emaczen: pjb: Ok, that should be easy enough then. Thanks
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2015-06-15T19:51:57Z pjb: emaczen: well, you're right it recompile hemlock files, then load the binary, but everytime it recompiles them.  There may be a bug somewhere in the cocoa-ide loading script.
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2015-06-15T19:52:53Z pjb: emaczen: perhaps it's require that does that in ccl…
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2015-06-15T19:56:15Z pjb: emaczen: check: ccl::*cocoa-ide-force-compile*
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2015-06-15T19:57:13Z pjb: I have it nil too.
2015-06-15T19:58:16Z emaczen: mine is ni
2015-06-15T19:58:18Z pjb: If you restart set it to t, (require :cocoa) it will compile it, then if you restart and (require :cocoa) it will load the fasl files.  But not for hemlock.
2015-06-15T19:58:19Z emaczen: nil
2015-06-15T19:58:30Z pjb: There must be something in the script that loads hemlock.
2015-06-15T19:59:05Z pjb: check /usr/local/src/ccl-1.10-darwinx86/cocoa-ide/hemlock.lisp  It contains: (compile-hemlock t)
2015-06-15T19:59:35Z pjb: We should patch it to use a ccl::*hemlock-force-compile*   instead of t :-)
2015-06-15T20:00:14Z emaczen: Nice!
2015-06-15T20:01:36Z emaczen: I don't think I have the source files?
2015-06-15T20:01:47Z emaczen: I don't remember exactl how I installed it.
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2015-06-15T20:02:01Z emaczen: It looks like I just downloaded the binary from the CCL website.
2015-06-15T20:02:38Z emaczen: ahhh found it
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2015-06-15T20:06:07Z pjb: emaczen: http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1288
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2015-06-15T20:08:56Z emaczen: coo!
2015-06-15T20:09:42Z emaczen: Related to the ticket, what is the fastest way to "require" a library. You mentioned that hemlock is loading one fasl as a time. What does asdf do?
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2015-06-15T20:15:36Z pjb: asdf too.
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2015-06-15T20:15:57Z pjb: But there may be some implementation specific way to concatenate all the fasl of a library into a single file that can be loaded with one load.
2015-06-15T20:16:34Z pjb: cf. asdf:compile-bundle-op https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Predefined-operations-of-ASDF
2015-06-15T20:17:40Z pjb: But the modules of ccl that you can require are not loaded with asdf, but with specific custom scripts like this hemlock.lisp
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2015-06-15T20:18:42Z pjb: Probably, they could be improved, to compile and generate a concatenated-fasl automatically once, and then loading this concatenated-fasl.
2015-06-15T20:19:52Z pjb: Notice in the doc of asdf, the use of a compiled bundle seem to require a manual step to create a specific asd file…  It's not automatic with asdf either.
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2015-06-15T21:20:44Z emaczen: Is there a pairlis that doesn't care if lists aren't of the same length?
2015-06-15T21:20:52Z emaczen: And would just attach a nil or something?
2015-06-15T21:21:43Z jasom: drmeister: love the Google talk.
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2015-06-15T21:42:18Z drmeister: jasom: Thanks.
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2015-06-15T22:54:00Z cluck: drmeister: your talk has hit hn frontpage :)
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