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2015-06-13T00:20:26Z `dwr: thanks, more info there on cmlisp than i have found anywhere at all
2015-06-13T00:20:35Z `dwr: other than the language description i mean
2015-06-13T00:20:45Z `dwr: historic context
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2015-06-13T02:14:56Z akkad: Allegro Beta 10 nice
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2015-06-13T03:13:50Z zacts: what is that link?
2015-06-13T03:14:00Z zacts: oh
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2015-06-13T03:14:01Z zacts: I see
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2015-06-13T04:00:40Z beach: schjetne: Correct, both times.
2015-06-13T04:00:56Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-13T04:01:09Z akkad: hi beach
2015-06-13T04:02:05Z nyef: beach: I have a couple of CLIM questions for you, if you have time.
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2015-06-13T04:03:35Z drmeister: Hello
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2015-06-13T04:05:17Z theos: hi
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2015-06-13T04:10:44Z beach: nyef: Sure.
2015-06-13T04:12:52Z nyef: Okay, first. REPLAY-OUTPUT-RECORD, MAP-OVER-OUTPUT-RECORDS-CONTAINING-POSITION, and MAP-OVER-OUTPUT-RECORDS-OVERLAPPING-REGION include two unexplained &optional parameters X-OFFSET and Y-OFFSET. What are they for?
2015-06-13T04:14:42Z beach: Wow, very detailed question.  I have no idea basically.
2015-06-13T04:14:52Z nyef: I was afraid of that.
2015-06-13T04:14:58Z beach: The best thing would be to look in the McCLIM sources for those functions.
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2015-06-13T04:17:26Z nyef: The next thing is that I'm trying once more to come to grips with the design-based drawing model... And some part of it is starting to make sense, while the rest of it is just utterly broken-seeming.
2015-06-13T04:18:24Z beach: OK.
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2015-06-13T04:19:10Z nyef: Is there anything immediately salvageable in the design-based drawing model, or should I just define RGB and possibly RGBA color inks, flipping inks, and indirect inks, and have done with it?
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2015-06-13T04:20:24Z beach: RGBA would be a special case of a design I suppose.
2015-06-13T04:20:36Z nyef: (And flipping inks restricted to purely RGB semantics, at that...)
2015-06-13T04:20:49Z beach: I would think designs would be useful for things like drawing glyphs.
2015-06-13T04:20:59Z beach: Like a cache.
2015-06-13T04:21:58Z nyef: The problem with designs as specified is that they're based on regions. And aside from the headache I get just thinking about the implementation, it looks as though the semantics are horribly broken.
2015-06-13T04:22:31Z tmtwd: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149728
2015-06-13T04:22:38Z tmtwd: whats wrong with my function in that paste?
2015-06-13T04:22:42Z akkad: wow
2015-06-13T04:22:45Z nyef: A simple case: Create a design which is a line clipped to a bounding box. The obvious result is a shorter line, right?
2015-06-13T04:22:47Z beach: As I recall designs are not based on regions, but regions are special cases of designs, no?
2015-06-13T04:22:59Z tmtwd: I call like this (game-print '(yo))
2015-06-13T04:23:19Z beach: nyef: It would seem that way.
2015-06-13T04:23:27Z beach: nyef: It isn't?
2015-06-13T04:23:34Z |3b|: tmtwd: aside from the whole thing being horribly convoluted, you probably meant to pass something to prin1-to-string
2015-06-13T04:24:04Z nyef: But with certain line-styles, notably particular end-caps and thicknesses, you get a completely different visual result than you would if you rendered the line segment with the bounding box as the clipping region.
2015-06-13T04:24:36Z tmtwd: |3b|, thanks
2015-06-13T04:25:02Z beach: nyef: What is the difference?  I don't see it.
2015-06-13T04:25:52Z |3b|: tmtwd: you could probably simplify it a lot, depending on hat tweak-text does and whether it can be modified (for example to work on a string instead of a list)
2015-06-13T04:26:01Z nyef: Draw a good, thick line, at a 45-degree angle, across the edge of the bounding box.
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2015-06-13T04:26:17Z tmtwd: |3b|, sure.... I'll try, still learning
2015-06-13T04:26:37Z nyef: With the naive raster model, you'd expect it to stop at the edge, with that 45-degree cut clipping it to the box.
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2015-06-13T04:27:07Z nyef: With the defined line-clipping model, the result you get depends on your end-cap style, but will tend to project beyond the side of the box.
2015-06-13T04:27:13Z beach: "clipping into the box"?  What does that mean?
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2015-06-13T04:27:36Z nyef: ... I'm going to have to fire up the gimp for this explanation, aren't I?
2015-06-13T04:27:58Z beach: nyef: Maybe so.  Sorry for being dense.
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2015-06-13T04:29:27Z |3b|: tmtwd: feel free to add the definition of TWEAK-TEXT and an example of real input (and maybe output) to that paste if you want more detailed suggestions
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2015-06-13T04:30:07Z |3b|: (you can add to the paste with the "annotate..." button at top)
2015-06-13T04:30:33Z tmtwd: oops, I know what the problem is, I added an extra paren. Is there a paredit command I can use ?
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2015-06-13T04:30:46Z tmtwd: to delete an individual paren
2015-06-13T04:32:20Z |3b| usually just adds the matching paren and then removes both at once. C-q (  adds an open paren without the matching close, similarly for C-q )
2015-06-13T04:33:10Z beach: drmeister: I got your email.  But I will be busy in the next few days.
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2015-06-13T04:35:02Z nyef: beach: http://lisphacker.com/temp/clim-render-question.png
2015-06-13T04:35:50Z nyef: On the left, with the grayed out bit being clipped by the bounding box, is the naive version. On the right is the clipped-line-segment design version.
2015-06-13T04:36:14Z beach: nyef: I don't see why you would ever get the result on the right.
2015-06-13T04:36:40Z nyef: And yet, I'm fairly certain that it's a consequence of how the geometry model is specified.
2015-06-13T04:37:05Z beach: Tell me again what operations would produce the result on the right.
2015-06-13T04:37:32Z nyef: You create your design by REGION-INTERSECTION of a line against a RECTANGLE.
2015-06-13T04:37:38Z nyef: Yielding a shorter LINE.
2015-06-13T04:37:49Z nyef: You then render it as a design.
2015-06-13T04:38:26Z beach: Hmm.
2015-06-13T04:38:28Z nyef: The line thickness and end-cap is applied long, long after the line is clipped.
2015-06-13T04:38:33Z beach: If so, then that is broken.
2015-06-13T04:40:33Z nyef: Now, it is likely that design composition yields the result on the left while region composition yields the result on the right.
2015-06-13T04:40:34Z beach: That's not how I think of REGION-INTERSECTION, though.
2015-06-13T04:41:28Z nyef: Except that, for the case of two REGIONs, design composition is defined to be the same as region composition.
2015-06-13T04:42:20Z nyef: Okay, so you have an alternate concept for region-intersection between a line and a rectangle?
2015-06-13T04:43:18Z beach: When you say "a line", do you mean a design that is a line?
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2015-06-13T04:43:51Z nyef: I mean (MAKE-LINE* start-x start-y end-x end-y).
2015-06-13T04:44:16Z beach: I forget, does that create a design?
2015-06-13T04:44:35Z nyef: All regions are designs, per 14.4.
2015-06-13T04:44:41Z beach: Yes, I know.
2015-06-13T04:45:15Z beach: I see that form as creating a line with some infinite resolution, but it is unaffected by region operations on it.
2015-06-13T04:45:16Z nyef: Also see DRAW-DESIGN in CLIM II 14.6.
2015-06-13T04:46:11Z beach: What makes you think that region operations would affect the end-x and end-y?
2015-06-13T04:46:17Z tmtwd: i suppose formatting depends on the editor /settings, ie if my code doesn't look like how it is in the book, it doesn't mean its wrong?
2015-06-13T04:46:29Z tmtwd: like if its missing indentations
2015-06-13T04:46:37Z nyef: A LINE is a PATH, per the definition of REGION-INTERSECTION, the result is "the path clipped to stay inside of the area".
2015-06-13T04:46:42Z tmtwd: (im using paredit with emacs)
2015-06-13T04:47:18Z beach: nyef: I see.  That sounds bad.
2015-06-13T04:47:41Z beach: nyef: No wait...
2015-06-13T04:48:00Z beach: nyef: The path is probably the one resulting from the infinite-resolution rendering of the line.
2015-06-13T04:48:44Z |3b|: tmtwd: emacs should get indentation correct for lisp files
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2015-06-13T04:49:27Z |3b|: (emacs pretty much defines "correct" indentation for CL these days, particularly with slime's indentation contrib loaded)
2015-06-13T04:49:35Z tmtwd: |3b|, should. but if something isn't indenting similarly to a book, is that enough to say that the code is doing something its not supposed to do
2015-06-13T04:49:57Z tmtwd: ie, one the my lines of code is not indented where it should be
2015-06-13T04:50:15Z |3b|: paste the poorly indented function to lisppaste so we can see what it looks like? also, which book?
2015-06-13T04:50:52Z |3b|: frequently 'bad' indentation is a sign the code isn't actually what you thing it is, for example () in the wrong place, or a typo in a macro name
2015-06-13T04:51:06Z nyef: beach: What do you mean by "a line with some infinite resolution"?
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2015-06-13T04:51:29Z |3b|: (though if you use macros that aren't defined yet, they will get indented as if they were function calls which is frequently not what you want)
2015-06-13T04:51:31Z tmtwd: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149730
2015-06-13T04:51:53Z tmtwd: in tweak-text, the line starting with (lit .. should be indented
2015-06-13T04:52:07Z |3b|: tmtwd: also, you can name a variable LIST instead of LST
2015-06-13T04:52:08Z tmtwd: from the book land of lisp
2015-06-13T04:52:10Z beach: nyef: The resulting polygon.
2015-06-13T04:52:29Z tmtwd: good idea
2015-06-13T04:52:35Z beach: nyef: But not yet rendered to a finite-resolution device.
2015-06-13T04:52:37Z |3b|: (and generally should, if you don't have a better name, like GAME-DATA or something if that's what is in the list you pass to game-print)
2015-06-13T04:53:00Z nyef: But that depends on the line-style on the medium at DRAW-DESIGN time, surely?
2015-06-13T04:53:00Z tmtwd: right
2015-06-13T04:53:05Z beach: nyef: But I am reading the spec now, and it would seem that your interpretation is right.
2015-06-13T04:53:18Z beach: nyef: Yes, it would.
2015-06-13T04:53:30Z beach: nyef: I must agree with you that the model is completely broken.
2015-06-13T04:53:58Z nyef: The alternative, is that this intersection case MUST produce a STANDARD-REGION-INTERSECTION, even if the line is entirely within the bounding box.
2015-06-13T04:54:40Z |3b|: tmtwd: http://landoflisp.com/errata.html suggests it should look like that
2015-06-13T04:54:40Z beach: nyef: yes, that would give the expected result.
2015-06-13T04:54:59Z beach: Or at least the result that I would expect.
2015-06-13T04:55:04Z nyef: It gives the expected result graphically, but not geometrically.
2015-06-13T04:55:46Z beach: Here is a better thought experiment than a line.  Take an ellipse and intersect it so that it breaks into smaller pieces.
2015-06-13T04:55:59Z nyef: ... Then re-assemble it?
2015-06-13T04:56:17Z beach: An ellipse is a path, no?
2015-06-13T04:56:32Z beach: So what is the "resulting path" after such an operation?
2015-06-13T04:56:52Z beach: Even better, take a polygon.
2015-06-13T04:56:57Z beach: Clip it.
2015-06-13T04:56:59Z nyef: Actually, an ellipse is an area.
2015-06-13T04:57:13Z nyef: An elliptical-arc is a path.
2015-06-13T04:57:18Z beach: OK, fine.
2015-06-13T04:57:21Z beach: Take a polyline.
2015-06-13T04:57:26Z beach: Clip it.
2015-06-13T04:57:40Z |3b|: tmtwd: i guess if the code is coming directly from the book, probably not worth worrying too much about style for now, just keep in mind it is simplifying and doing odd things to make progress faster so you will want probably want to look at some "real" code when you get done to get an idea for more normal style
2015-06-13T04:57:43Z beach: Should the result be rendered as several lines, with caps and all?
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2015-06-13T04:58:06Z tmtwd: yes it is quite redundant in some places
2015-06-13T04:58:17Z tmtwd: I imagine I could go back later and clean it up
2015-06-13T04:59:02Z nyef: And the answer is, whichever way we decide, SOMETHING winds up being horribly counter-intuitive.
2015-06-13T05:00:10Z beach: nyef: At least I think rendering the result as lines would be *very* counter-intuitive.
2015-06-13T05:01:01Z beach: nyef: It might be worth considering whether the other model is consistent.
2015-06-13T05:01:07Z nyef: But if you're trying to do anything in terms of actual GEOMETRY, then it actually IS separate lines.
2015-06-13T05:01:17Z beach: That is, the path is preserved, but it is clipped when rendered.
2015-06-13T05:01:40Z beach: nyef: Yes, I see what you mean.
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2015-06-13T05:03:01Z nyef: Also note that you can't really have a design with two different styles of line at the same time.
2015-06-13T05:04:25Z beach: It all does seem broken.
2015-06-13T05:04:48Z nyef: I think I was right the first time. Both designs AND geometry that is not made up of axis-aligned rectangles are broken.
2015-06-13T05:05:03Z nyef: Which means that non-rectilinear transformations are also broken.
2015-06-13T05:05:18Z beach: I think that is basically true.
2015-06-13T05:05:37Z nyef: And that the only use of a point is as a value holder for pairs of X and Y coordinates.
2015-06-13T05:05:42Z beach: I think that for a different reason too though.
2015-06-13T05:05:56Z |3b|: is there anything interesting left if you remove all graphics from clim?
2015-06-13T05:06:13Z beach: |3b|: I think so yes.
2015-06-13T05:06:18Z nyef: Oh, this isn't removing the graphics, just the drawing model.
2015-06-13T05:06:28Z |3b|: that may be what i mean
2015-06-13T05:06:30Z beach: |3b|: That's basically what I did for CLIM3/CLIMatis.
2015-06-13T05:07:04Z |3b| has the impression it would be nice to have graphics from a modern 2d API, with the rest from clim, but i don't really know either that well :/
2015-06-13T05:07:23Z beach: nyef: An output record is a "rectangular area", but what happens if it is in a sheet with a complex device transformation?
2015-06-13T05:08:41Z beach: CLIM3/CLIMatis basically has only rectilinear transformations.  Client code can do more complex things inside a "zone" of course.
2015-06-13T05:08:43Z nyef: Umm... Where do you get the impression that an output record is a rectangular area?
2015-06-13T05:08:59Z nyef: It has a bounding-rectangle, yes, but I don't see any further constraints.
2015-06-13T05:09:26Z beach: nyef: I may be wrong.  Maybe I am thinking of a gadget.
2015-06-13T05:09:29Z |3b|: (where modern 2d api is something like html canvas, svg, flash, openvg, etc)
2015-06-13T05:10:40Z nyef: Not seeing any such constraints on gadgets, either, as you are allowed to use non-rectangular regions for sheet regions.
2015-06-13T05:10:49Z beach: nyef: "Panes are rectangular objects..."
2015-06-13T05:11:07Z nyef: Ahh.
2015-06-13T05:11:08Z beach: 29.1
2015-06-13T05:11:24Z nyef: Okay, that'd be the constraint.
2015-06-13T05:11:31Z nyef: hrm.
2015-06-13T05:11:34Z beach: But what does that even mean?
2015-06-13T05:11:52Z beach: In which coordinate system?
2015-06-13T05:12:13Z nyef: In their parent's coordinate system. Has to be.
2015-06-13T05:12:38Z beach: So if I stick a sheet with panes in it inside a sheet with a strange transformation, what happens?
2015-06-13T05:12:42Z nyef: Ugh. The Silica layer giveth and the Application layer taketh away.
2015-06-13T05:15:34Z nyef: It's bad enough that I have to support REGION-DIFFERENCE from +EVERYWHERE+. /-:
2015-06-13T05:19:08Z beach: Yes, I agree.  There were some good reasons I started CLIM3/CLIMatis.
2015-06-13T05:19:33Z nyef: Okay, it's almost 1:20, and my brain is fried.
2015-06-13T05:19:43Z beach: Sleep well.
2015-06-13T05:20:07Z nyef: Thank you for your help. I now have a stronger handle on the scope for NQ-CLIM and the why of that scope.
2015-06-13T05:20:07Z tmtwd: so, lambdas are actually just macros?
2015-06-13T05:20:26Z Bike: no. what?
2015-06-13T05:20:35Z beach: nyef: Sure.  Glad to be of help.
2015-06-13T05:20:58Z tmtwd: Because not all parameters of the lambda command are evaluated, lambda
2015-06-13T05:20:58Z tmtwd: itself is not actually a true function. It is something called a macro. Remember
2015-06-13T05:20:58Z tmtwd: from Chapter 2 that all parameters to a Lisp function are evaluated before
2015-06-13T05:20:58Z tmtwd: 104
2015-06-13T05:20:58Z tmtwd: Chapter 6.5the function itself is evaluated. Macros, on the other hand, have special pow-
2015-06-13T05:20:59Z tmtwd: ers and are allowed to break those rules.
2015-06-13T05:21:25Z Bike: lambda is, itself, a macro, but it's used to construct functions.
2015-06-13T05:21:40Z Bike: ("lambda command"? ew)
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2015-06-13T05:22:34Z tmtwd: Also, to confuse matters a bit, the actual value that lambda returns is a
2015-06-13T05:22:34Z tmtwd: regular Lisp function—
2015-06-13T05:23:04Z tmtwd: oh so the keyword lambda is a macro, that returns an anonymous function?
2015-06-13T05:23:18Z Bike: lambda isn't a keyword, but otherwise, yes.
2015-06-13T05:23:58Z tmtwd: so, I haven't gotten to lisp macros yet, but if lambda is a macro, what does it turn into at runtime?
2015-06-13T05:24:18Z Bike: (lambda ...) expands to (function (lambda ...)). function is a special form.
2015-06-13T05:24:33Z Bike: special operator. w/e.
2015-06-13T05:25:18Z tmtwd: ah
2015-06-13T05:25:21Z tmtwd: i see
2015-06-13T05:25:28Z tmtwd: is it the same with scheme?
2015-06-13T05:25:44Z Bike: no. i think lambda is a special operator in scheme.
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2015-06-13T05:27:19Z tmtwd: huh
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2015-06-13T05:53:07Z beach: drmeister: I made an attempt to pass on information on inline and AST.
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2015-06-13T07:21:18Z beach: Now who was it that wanted to build a Linux system with everything except the kernel written in Common Lisp?
2015-06-13T07:21:26Z beach: Was it aeth?
2015-06-13T07:22:10Z beach: I keep thinking it would make things much faster.  My dinky laptop is soooo slow with the GUI applications.
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2015-06-13T07:25:12Z |3b|: beach: i'm sure lisp programmers could waste just as much CPU as c/c++ programmers :/
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2015-06-13T07:25:56Z |3b|: or you would get 'faster' the same way C/C++ programmers did a decade or 2 ago, by just not doing as much
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2015-06-13T07:26:41Z |3b|: (or alternately, by not having decades of backwards compatibility and old code)
2015-06-13T07:26:54Z beach: Sure.
2015-06-13T07:27:05Z beach: I was thinking about not having to start a process for each application.
2015-06-13T07:27:22Z |3b|: you'd probably also need a realtime CL implementation
2015-06-13T07:27:49Z beach: Maybe so, yes.
2015-06-13T07:28:05Z |3b| suspects "starting a process" isn't all that expensive, compared to "find dozens of libs, parse a bunch of startup files, etc"
2015-06-13T07:28:34Z beach: My estimate is that the SICL GC should only take a few millliseconds.
2015-06-13T07:28:59Z |3b|: even in pathological cases?
2015-06-13T07:29:29Z beach: Well, the per-thread nursery GC should take max that.
2015-06-13T07:29:42Z beach: The global GC is going to be concurrent.
2015-06-13T07:31:33Z beach: If the slowness is due to parsing startup files, then one should be able to do better by keeping startup information in the memory of the Common Lisp process.
2015-06-13T07:32:16Z beach: And we are back to replacing the file system with an object store as I am thinking for LispOS.
2015-06-13T07:33:11Z p_l: it's the searching and loading that will take a lot of time, no matter what encoding your objects are
2015-06-13T07:33:13Z |3b| thinks that might fall under the "not have decades of back compatibility/old code" category... an os that didn't have existing assumption of text config files could store them more efficiently as well
2015-06-13T07:33:40Z |3b|: s/os/non-lisp userland/
2015-06-13T07:34:06Z p_l: s/non-lisp userland/certain ideas regarding the protocols involved/
2015-06-13T07:36:52Z beach: p_l: There would be no "loading" other than paging in the page containing the information.
2015-06-13T07:37:52Z p_l: and finding the area to load from and paging it in are not that simple tasks, especially if you want any robustness in the filesystem
2015-06-13T07:39:55Z p_l: you'll also want a more portable format to deal with extensibility etc. unless you want to rebuild configuration from scratch
2015-06-13T07:40:15Z p_l: (the most prominent "just page it in" application in the world is, afaik, MS Word and MS Excel)
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2015-06-13T07:41:09Z beach: I am not sure I follow all your arguments.
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2015-06-13T07:41:25Z beach: Maybe perhaps I don't know much about Word and Excel.
2015-06-13T07:41:59Z beach: I was thinking that instead of (say) an XML file for configuration, there would be some CLOS object containing the configuration information.
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2015-06-13T07:42:32Z p_l: beach: MS Word and MS Excel, for the same reason of speed, used "blitting" of data directly to memory
2015-06-13T07:42:58Z beach: From where?
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2015-06-13T07:43:15Z p_l: the consequences were byzantine file formats that for added issue of users' misuse (you were not expected to ever share DOC files, for example) were multiplied
2015-06-13T07:43:34Z p_l: beach: from storage (whether it was disk or floppy, though floppy slowness was the reason for the approach)
2015-06-13T07:44:35Z p_l: the purpose was so that Word or excel would load the whole file in one go, direct into work memory as the datastructure to use for work
2015-06-13T07:44:51Z beach: Well, since the system I am planning would not have the concept of a "file", nor the concept of "loading data from a file to memory", I am thinking I wouldn't have such problems.  There would have to be a portable interchange format of course, but that would not have to be used very often.
2015-06-13T07:45:11Z p_l: beach: so, it doesn't have non-volatile storage?
2015-06-13T07:45:26Z beach: p_l: Of course it does.
2015-06-13T07:45:28Z p_l: (replace "file" with "disk" or whatever)
2015-06-13T07:45:43Z beach: But that's just the paging mechanism doing that.
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2015-06-13T07:46:11Z beach: There would not be two different types of memory with different semantics.  Just like Multics.
2015-06-13T07:46:20Z p_l: beach: Word and Excel essentially did just that, a single page-in into memory for loading
2015-06-13T07:47:08Z p_l: isn't that more OS/400 schtick? IIRC Multics was more of "mmap as main I/O approach" (akin to Twenex) but still had the concept of files etc.
2015-06-13T07:47:32Z p_l: OS/400 is the one OS I recall having unified storage address space (the 128-bit pointers help in that)
2015-06-13T07:47:40Z beach: Right.
2015-06-13T07:47:54Z beach: Multics couldn't do that because it had only 36-bit pointers.
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2015-06-13T07:48:47Z p_l: Word/Excel did their I/O Multics style - page in, with extra work of appending at the end a'la SBCL's allocator, for speed in write
2015-06-13T07:48:56Z beach: I was referring to the fact that Multics didn't need to "load" anything to "memory" from "disk" in order for data to be used.  It was sufficient to obtain a pointer to the "segment" as they called it, and start using it.
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2015-06-13T07:49:36Z p_l: so essentially the same as "mmap()" on POSIX or the myriad advanced VirtualMemory functions in NT
2015-06-13T07:50:48Z beach: But that is not what I want for LispOS.
2015-06-13T07:51:54Z beach: I just want a huge non-volatile memory containing Common Lisp objects.
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2015-06-13T07:52:46Z p_l: so, preferably custom hardware like the special storage controller for Power8
2015-06-13T07:53:21Z beach: I don't know about that, but I also don't see why it would be necessary.
2015-06-13T07:53:59Z ggole: How would you GC that?
2015-06-13T07:54:02Z p_l: necessary, no, properly removing an otherwise dirty secret inside kernel, yes
2015-06-13T07:54:32Z beach: ggole: A full GC would need to do some paging of course.
2015-06-13T07:54:58Z beach: ggole: I am thinking of a concurrent GC where objects don't move.
2015-06-13T07:55:06Z p_l: beach: IBM made an example FPGA-based controller that can be plugged into Power8 machine's PCI-E slot, connecting to normal SAN on the other side
2015-06-13T07:55:47Z ggole: That seems like it would be really hard to do without having insane worst-case pauses
2015-06-13T07:56:00Z p_l: it provided the storage array as "physical memory" in I/O space, all the OS had to do was to play with pagetables and/or possibly move pages between different areas of physical memory (to change locality)
2015-06-13T07:56:11Z beach: ggole: The SICL non-CONS objects all have a 2-word header, so it is possible to use mark-and-sweep on those.
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2015-06-13T07:56:29Z fourier: beach: Is running the software from disk/nand etc really slow? specially if you contain both assets and instructions on the same storage
2015-06-13T07:57:20Z beach: fourier: Not sure what you mean.  Sorry.
2015-06-13T07:57:31Z ggole: beach: but you'd have to go to disk to discover reachability?
2015-06-13T07:58:46Z beach: ggole: According to my calculations, most objects in a typical system are binary things like photos and movies.  Those would basically never be scanned.  Instead there would be 2-word headers to scan.  The number of such headers would be such that they would all fit in RAM.
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2015-06-13T08:01:54Z fourier: beach: I'm about your remark about Multics
2015-06-13T08:02:17Z beach: fourier: Oh, I see...
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2015-06-13T08:03:11Z beach: fourier: There is of course both RAM and disk, but they are organized so that it looks like RAM the size of the disk (except for paging).
2015-06-13T08:03:13Z p_l: beach: there's also non-trivial aspect of actually walking the disk structure
2015-06-13T08:03:20Z igorww: hello dear lispers, I am reading the lisp 1.5 manual and it is referring to "overlord direction cards"
2015-06-13T08:03:40Z beach: igorww: Probably punch cards.
2015-06-13T08:03:48Z igorww: I've been trying to find information on Overlord, but have come up mostly empty handed. it seems to be some sort of punched card storage format of sorts
2015-06-13T08:04:18Z beach: igorww: I am guessing it has nothing to do with Lisp and everything to do about the command language of the operating system.
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2015-06-13T08:04:47Z fourier: beach: yep I understand
2015-06-13T08:05:29Z igorww: beach: possible. does anyone know what the target machine of the original lisp 1.5 was?
2015-06-13T08:05:29Z aap_ is now known as aap
2015-06-13T08:05:35Z beach: p_l: I am not planning anything that hasn't been done before in some similar form.
2015-06-13T08:07:31Z igorww: oh! I found more details in appendix E! :)
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2015-06-13T08:07:53Z beach: p_l: And I think I know that these things are not trivial, but they can be done and have been done.
2015-06-13T08:08:34Z igorww: "Overlord is the monitor of the LISP System. It controls the handling of tapes, the reading and writing of entire core images, the historical memory of the system, and the taking of dumps."
2015-06-13T08:08:40Z igorww: it's the OS :)
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2015-06-13T08:08:49Z JuanDaugherty: igorww, so what was it?
2015-06-13T08:08:52Z beach: p_l: Are you telling me that it can't be done?  Or that I don't have the knowledge to do it?  Or perhaps you are just warning me that I have a tough task ahead of me?
2015-06-13T08:09:10Z H4ns: lisp is much older than the idea of a separate operating system
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2015-06-13T08:09:49Z schjetne: igorww: IBM 7090, I believe
2015-06-13T08:09:57Z JuanDaugherty: IBM 704 looks like
2015-06-13T08:10:19Z schjetne: beach: if you're ever in Gothenburg and feel like drinks or coffee, let me know!
2015-06-13T08:10:20Z H4ns: back in the day when lisp was invented, you had a machine and nothing else.  the "operating system" consisted of the sequencing hardware that'd load something from punchtape or cards into the memory of the machine.
2015-06-13T08:10:37Z schjetne: I'm also very interested in the Lisp OS project
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2015-06-13T08:11:14Z JuanDaugherty: u and everybody else
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2015-06-13T08:12:04Z igorww: H4ns: yeah, that's pretty much all the overlord does from what I can tell, interface with the tapes
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2015-06-13T08:12:21Z beach: schjetne: Thanks!  I will definitely pop in sometime.  But not this time, because I am organizing a bigish event here in the south.
2015-06-13T08:12:33Z schjetne: Lisp related?
2015-06-13T08:12:40Z beach: Not at all. :)
2015-06-13T08:12:57Z beach: I am putting on a party for my family.
2015-06-13T08:13:23Z schjetne: Ah, that's important too :)
2015-06-13T08:13:29Z beach: Very! :)
2015-06-13T08:13:41Z JuanDaugherty: south of germany, us, ... ?
2015-06-13T08:14:37Z JuanDaugherty: maybe the global south
2015-06-13T08:15:03Z p_l: beach: the last one, and acting as advocatus diaboli :)
2015-06-13T08:16:37Z p_l: beach: I want to see what you come up with in implementation, sometimes I end up throwing issues to see what approach you're going to take
2015-06-13T08:16:49Z p_l guesses he might sound a bit too contrarian?
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2015-06-13T08:17:50Z beach: Sometimes, yes. :)
2015-06-13T08:18:30Z beach: JuanDaugherty: You will have to read the logs to find out.
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2015-06-13T08:18:57Z p_l: beach: I'll admit that I've been thinking for some time about opposite approach to "everything is virtual memory", although including it
2015-06-13T08:19:04Z |3b|: beach: with the "disk-backed ram" model, how would you handle something like mounting the drive from a dead machine read-only to recover data?
2015-06-13T08:19:09Z p_l: just maybe a bit more than "stream of bytes"
2015-06-13T08:19:32Z JuanDaugherty: beach, OK
2015-06-13T08:20:22Z p_l: |3b|: well, if there's a good "external image manipulation" program, it would be doable
2015-06-13T08:20:41Z beach: |3b|: I don't know.   I guess my idea is all crap and I should realize it isn't possible.
2015-06-13T08:20:45Z p_l: worst case is naive memory dump with no good tooling to access it outside of itself
2015-06-13T08:20:54Z p_l: beach: Nah
2015-06-13T08:21:00Z beach: |3b|: I should probably consider suicide too since I am so incompetent.
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2015-06-13T08:21:09Z |3b|: beach: was trying to phrase it more positively than that :(
2015-06-13T08:21:23Z |3b|: more "had you considered that use-case"
2015-06-13T08:21:36Z beach: Answer is "no".
2015-06-13T08:21:41Z |3b|: ok :)
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2015-06-13T08:22:08Z |3b| doesn't think it is a bad idea, just not one that i can see all the implications of at once
2015-06-13T08:22:25Z |3b| is bad at seeing big pictures all at once though
2015-06-13T08:23:24Z schjetne: Something like the NixOS model would help with system data and configuration. You declare what you need and just build a new image and throw the old one away
2015-06-13T08:24:27Z p_l: I actually think it's doable - I'm not a great fan of it (especially since it got buzzwordy in certain circles, coupled with naive ideas that do not go beyond "just unify RAM and block storage!")
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2015-06-13T08:25:42Z p_l: but it's been at least partially done (I lack the docs, not to mention machine, to test OS/400 deeper) and I'd say that OS/400 is reliable and succesful (if niche)
2015-06-13T08:25:59Z beach: Apparently, it's a great system.
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2015-06-13T08:26:16Z beach: But all the technical documentation is proprietary and unavailable.
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2015-06-13T08:26:28Z p_l: beach: I heard such things, though it's definitely more obscure than Lisp Machine in terms of interfacingetc.
2015-06-13T08:27:00Z beach: I trust you.  I haven't even seen one or used one.
2015-06-13T08:27:30Z p_l: beach: I'll have to check one day (too much stuff taking away my initiative with work), but I would not be surprised if there's actually publicly available documentation, just hidden behind cryptic names deep in IBM redbooks libraries
2015-06-13T08:27:53Z p_l: at the very least, they give out for free docs on Z/OS, though not too deep into implementation :/
2015-06-13T08:28:41Z beach: What's the relation between Z/OS and AS/400?
2015-06-13T08:29:13Z p_l: zero, but the redbooks/redpaper library contains stuff on different IBM products - I kinda hope OS/400 might show up there as well
2015-06-13T08:29:24Z beach: Got it.
2015-06-13T08:30:06Z p_l: It might be a bit like Windows documentation. It took me decades before finding where the good stuff is, assuming it was there at the start
2015-06-13T08:30:56Z beach: Actually, I haven't checked the availability of AS/400 documentation for almost a decade.  Perhaps the Google search engine found it in the meantime.
2015-06-13T08:31:02Z p_l: heh
2015-06-13T08:31:45Z p_l: google finds the weirdest things, including "OpenGenera 8.18" binaries (apparently latest Symbolics update to VLM2 emulator/life-support package)
2015-06-13T08:32:04Z p_l: I'm happy I managed to get somewhere with z/OS documentation :)
2015-06-13T08:32:36Z beach googles for AS/400 documentation.
2015-06-13T08:32:59Z wooden: what would be a way to prettyprint a plist one key/value pair per line?
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2015-06-13T08:36:04Z beach: p_l: There appears to be much more out there these days.
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2015-06-13T08:36:49Z p_l: beach: Ah, just thought of one thing for your system - while it would add a bit of indirection, what about making "disk" be essentially a big "hashtable" of objects that are directly-mappable, and integrate some of the GC reachability data into the tree/index? By turning the disk from flat block device into object store from which you map individual object/segments into memory, you could have versioning, snapsho
2015-06-13T08:36:55Z p_l: ts etc?
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2015-06-13T08:38:26Z p_l: hmm... I would have to write the specific idea down and draw something, because I'm not sure I'd be coherent in expressing it over IRC ^^;
2015-06-13T08:38:31Z beach: p_l: Certainly worth thinking about.
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2015-06-13T08:39:05Z beach: p_l:  Part of your idea sounds similar to the one I contemplated for the crash-proof-ness.
2015-06-13T08:39:36Z schjetne: wooden: set *print-right-margin* to a lowish value is one option, but that will probably not be entirely predictable. You can also roll your own using format.
2015-06-13T08:39:43Z p_l: beach: I've grown used to capabilities given by my current storage that uses object store on top of block storage before putting a filesystem on the object store - the tree nature of the object store make snapshots etc. free and make for easier recovery
2015-06-13T08:39:54Z schjetne: clhs format
2015-06-13T08:39:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm
2015-06-13T08:40:12Z beach: p_l: I see, yes.
2015-06-13T08:40:36Z p_l: (the posix-compatible filesystem is implemented by blob objects for files and hashtables for directories, each stored as object in common objset)
2015-06-13T08:41:16Z wooden: schjetne: thanks.  was hoping there was just a library function somewhere, but if it's gotta be iteration and format so be it.
2015-06-13T08:41:54Z p_l: beach: each new write transaction is done by writing a new tree, reusing unchanged subtrees, and putting "pointer" to the latest block in a ring-buffer placed in specific area of the disk
2015-06-13T08:42:46Z p_l: giving essentially an undo facility (and the snapshots are treated similarly as you would treat pointers to structure-sharing trees in GC'd system)
2015-06-13T08:43:36Z p_l: each object is also a subtree that stores mapping between block-based locations and locations in the datastream of the object
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2015-06-13T08:45:54Z beach: p_l: Sounds good.  I just don't see at which level it would fit in.
2015-06-13T08:46:34Z beach: p_l: This thing basically presents itself as a flat linear sequence of bytes as far as the API is concerned?
2015-06-13T08:47:21Z beach: p_l: I am not sure what an "object" and an "object store" is in this context.
2015-06-13T08:47:31Z p_l: beach: the process level API does that, because it's limited by POSIX - but the internals are based on objects (that do contain linear sequence of bytes) stored within trees (though you use it like hash-table)
2015-06-13T08:48:04Z beach: p_l: And you are considering using the underlying system?
2015-06-13T08:48:18Z beach: p_l: If so, how would you represent a CONS cell?
2015-06-13T08:48:25Z p_l: process -> POSIX VFS -> POSIX-semantics "FS" done with objects -> general object store -> block layer (raid/mirroring)
2015-06-13T08:49:19Z p_l: beach: the question is how much granularity you want to do - CONS cells are IMO too small (the structure pointing to them would be huge in comparison), but imagine segments of processes and data as individual objects linked by virtual memory
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2015-06-13T08:49:59Z p_l: and yes, I have considered using the internal APIs, but there's not one exported to userspace (though Lustre kernel module uses it at kernel level
2015-06-13T08:51:09Z beach: p_l: The system I am contemplating will be like an ordinary Common Lisp system, except that it's non-volatile, that it has an object store that can contain any Common Lisp object, and that it is multi-user.  What I don't understand is whether you are saying that I can't have CONS cells then, or whether you are saying that there would have to be some bigger objects that contain my Common Lisp objects.
2015-06-13T08:51:09Z p_l ponders directly mapping the metadata structures and having lisp processes essentially directly modify them with some kind of critical section stuff...
2015-06-13T08:51:27Z p_l: beach: bigger objects containing small CL objects
2015-06-13T08:51:34Z beach: Got it.
2015-06-13T08:51:39Z p_l: beach: I was thinking "segments" of application images
2015-06-13T08:51:48Z p_l: (or non-code data as well)
2015-06-13T08:52:24Z beach: So those objects in your object store would basically be invisible to the user?
2015-06-13T08:52:30Z p_l: beach: not necessarily
2015-06-13T08:52:53Z beach: Hmm.  I think you need to write this down. :)
2015-06-13T08:52:56Z p_l: you got me thinking on how to expose it, so for example you could allocate an array as separate object
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2015-06-13T08:53:40Z p_l: the "storage" layer would then create a new object, equip it with metadata about array, and you could then pass the whole array around between different lisp processes (including loading from cold image)
2015-06-13T08:54:05Z p_l: aref etc. would work as usual, just probably some extra keywords into make-array and ushc
2015-06-13T08:54:08Z p_l: (such
2015-06-13T08:54:09Z p_l: *such
2015-06-13T08:54:26Z beach: Yes, I see.
2015-06-13T08:54:46Z p_l: maybe a bit of statice-like API for CLOS? Where you want to indicate specific behaviour of shared objects, so they would be stored in separate disk-level object(s)
2015-06-13T08:55:43Z p_l: as in, normal CLOS objects would be part of application image, but you could create a metaclass, or something, which would imply a shared "storage" of CLOS objects that could be mapped between different applications
2015-06-13T08:56:14Z p_l: also, this could make it easy to "fork" lisp images
2015-06-13T08:56:52Z beach: Since I am not sure we are sharing the same basic ideas about the API, I think you need to write down how all this would present itself on the API level, in addition to how you are thinking of implementing it.
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2015-06-13T08:56:59Z p_l: yeah
2015-06-13T08:57:05Z p_l looks at the clock
2015-06-13T08:57:11Z p_l: ... damn -_-
2015-06-13T08:57:38Z p_l: beach: I'll try to write something down for you, though beware, my notes are often rough and untidy :)
2015-06-13T08:57:56Z beach: But then we can start working from there and adding more detail.
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2015-06-13T08:59:23Z beach: I don't recognize words such as "shared" (in my hypothetical system, everything is potentially shared), "pass around to different processes" (in my hypothetical system, there are no "processes" in the sense of different address spaces, or at least not for each application), "application image", etc.
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2015-06-13T08:59:51Z beach: So you need to explain what those mean in what you write.
2015-06-13T09:00:44Z p_l: beach: I'm thinking of variable-level isolation between processes, at least at API level, including easy way of using and accessing different versions of code
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2015-06-13T09:01:12Z p_l: the "whole" OS would have everything shared, but it could create subenvironments that see specific "view" of the whole thing
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2015-06-13T09:01:32Z beach: That, I can relate to.
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2015-06-13T09:01:48Z beach: Those would be like my first-class global environments.
2015-06-13T09:02:10Z p_l: also, some of this was in context of |3b|'s earlier question about loading cold data of one system from another, for example for analysis
2015-06-13T09:02:58Z pjb: basically, you integrate all the storage devices in a single addressing space, and memory map them.
2015-06-13T09:02:59Z beach: But you just introduced more words that I don't know the meaning of such as "variable-level isolation" and I am not yet sure whether by "process" you mean "tread" or a full process with its own address space.
2015-06-13T09:03:01Z pjb: When you have 64-bit addressable, you can easily memory map your 6 4TB hard disks, and the 6TB blueray.  That's only 6.66e-13 % of the address space.  You can even memory map the whole (IPv4) internet!
2015-06-13T09:03:40Z p_l: variable isolation was more to your first-class global environments
2015-06-13T09:03:52Z beach: OK.
2015-06-13T09:04:42Z beach: I look forward to a more linear description of your thoughts.
2015-06-13T09:05:19Z p_l: I'd love to compose them from "segments" (known to OS, opaque pointers maybe?), so for example I could give #<OPAQUE-POINTER array....> to two different processes, while insuring for example that it lives on fast storage - mixing the VM approach and more hardware-centric approach
2015-06-13T09:06:01Z p_l: it's quite possible my ideas are impossible, or worse, nonsensical :)
2015-06-13T09:06:14Z p_l: I will admit I've been recently quite sleep-deprived
2015-06-13T09:07:29Z p_l: ... lol. I never mentioned the specific storage system that I actually based those ideas on, eh?
2015-06-13T09:08:41Z p_l: (it's based on ZFS internals, the lesser know API/part called DMU - the "filesystem" is implemented by storing objects in it)
2015-06-13T09:09:18Z wooden: schjetne: yeah, that wasn't too hard.  thanks.  (format stream "(~{~s ~s~^~%~})" plist)
2015-06-13T09:10:29Z p_l: beach: btw, I loved your presentation about first-class global environments :)
2015-06-13T09:10:49Z p_l wanted something like this for years, now sees a light at the end of the tunnel
2015-06-13T09:11:38Z beach: p_l: Thanks.
2015-06-13T09:11:50Z beach: Do you mean the talk?  Is it on-line?
2015-06-13T09:12:05Z p_l: beach: I was there physically ;)
2015-06-13T09:12:10Z beach: Duh!
2015-06-13T09:12:20Z beach: I must be sleep-deprived as well.
2015-06-13T09:12:31Z p_l: eh, I'm just non-memorable ;)
2015-06-13T09:12:38Z beach: Not at all.
2015-06-13T09:12:46Z beach: We shared tables on several occations.
2015-06-13T09:12:49Z beach: occasions
2015-06-13T09:13:28Z p_l: well, *I* don't consider myself memorable :)
2015-06-13T09:13:29Z beach: Speaking of which, you participate in ELS2016 organization, right.
2015-06-13T09:13:36Z p_l: beach: possibly
2015-06-13T09:13:39Z p_l: nothing set in stone yet
2015-06-13T09:13:43Z p_l: I want to help, though
2015-06-13T09:13:43Z beach: OK.
2015-06-13T09:13:57Z beach: Hint: Go ask the mayor to invite everyone for cocktail.
2015-06-13T09:14:11Z beach: I think this is part of the job description of mayors in France.
2015-06-13T09:14:14Z beach: You can tell him that.
2015-06-13T09:14:20Z p_l: interesting
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2015-06-13T09:14:57Z beach: In the worst case he/she will refuse.
2015-06-13T09:15:00Z p_l: you mean city's mayor?
2015-06-13T09:15:02Z beach: Yes.
2015-06-13T09:15:06Z p_l: mhm
2015-06-13T09:15:18Z beach: I have seen it in Bordeaux and in Dijon.
2015-06-13T09:15:32Z schjetne: wooden: you can also use ~& that gives you a fresh line, ie. only makes a newline if it's not already on an empty line
2015-06-13T09:15:34Z beach: You just call them up and they organize and pay for it.
2015-06-13T09:16:10Z beach: p_l: We might have to suffer through a speech about how great the city is, bla, bla, but it's worth it.
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2015-06-13T09:16:44Z p_l: nice. Can't say I expect it would work in Poland (depends on a city) but it's definitely an interesting idea!
2015-06-13T09:16:59Z beach: Yeah, definitely worth trying.
2015-06-13T09:17:37Z schjetne: Next ELS is going to be fun, I haven't been in Poland before except passing through.
2015-06-13T09:17:50Z p_l: well, I hope it will be fun for all attendees :)
2015-06-13T09:17:59Z beach: I am sure it will be.
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2015-06-13T09:18:19Z beach: I have been there but it was quite some time ago.  I expect everything to have changed a lot.
2015-06-13T09:19:36Z p_l baffles at behaviour of his computer, and notes he will have to mostly drop from chat if he wants to get anything done today
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2015-06-13T09:26:35Z pjb: IMO, politicians are part of the problem, not the solution, therefore I'm very reticent to include them in any activity.
2015-06-13T09:30:06Z beach: pjb: I haven't noticed any negative side effects from their inviting people to a cocktail party.
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2015-06-13T09:30:37Z pjb: beach: the might start writing laws about the Internet and computer use.
2015-06-13T09:30:39Z pjb: they
2015-06-13T09:30:54Z beach: Yes, that must be stopped of course.
2015-06-13T09:31:24Z beach: But we (who care about those things) have good contacts at the EU parliament level.
2015-06-13T09:32:10Z beach: That's how the proposal on software patents was defeated at the EU level.
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2015-06-13T09:34:26Z pjb: Trying to use the system instead of trying to disolve the system.
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2015-06-13T09:42:02Z p_l: dissolving it creates a new one. No guarantee on it being better
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2015-06-13T09:47:02Z oleo_: morning
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2015-06-13T09:47:21Z beach: Hello oleo_.
2015-06-13T09:47:57Z oleo_: morning beach! :)
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2015-06-13T09:54:48Z kephra: beach, drinking alcohol is the job description of most politicians in most countries
2015-06-13T09:56:46Z kephra: e.g. Jens Böhnsen (at that time president of Germany) did fly with a group of technology startups people from Bremen to China - just to shake hands and drink booze
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2015-06-13T09:57:42Z kephra: thats the job description of German president ( who is purely representative - leader of government is the chancellor )
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2015-06-13T09:58:17Z beach: kephra: I see.  The events that I was referring to were different.  In fact the mayor was not there in person, and the person delivering the speech didn't stick around for the cocktail.
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2015-06-13T09:59:04Z kephra: well - our president was there in person (most of the time) *lol*
2015-06-13T09:59:20Z kephra: already in the plane, people started to drink, and joke around
2015-06-13T09:59:34Z kephra: and I had the feeling that this would end like a school holyday
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2015-06-13T10:04:54Z kephra: on 2nd day, we lost Jens in the night - and I had this feeling again ... or "where is the teacher now?"
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2015-06-13T10:07:20Z kephra: beach, and about EU patent laws - William Shelter posthum helped in this fight
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2015-06-13T10:09:45Z kephra: "One has already seen a shift in software development towards europe from the USA, ... in part due to the US patent and other legal restrictions which have begun to hamper development in the USA. ... Europe must not shoot itself in the foot, bending to the desire of the USA to allow software patents".
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2015-06-13T10:10:07Z kephra: <- William Shelter, author of GNU Common Lisp
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2015-06-13T10:10:15Z beach: Interesting.
2015-06-13T10:11:38Z kephra: I had the copyleft.de domain at that time, and coded a lot of GCL
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2015-06-13T10:15:07Z kephra: a few friends of mine, and me asked for asylum in Namibia, for the case that software patents apply - sending a copy to the German liberal party, that Linux in Muenchen is a doomed project, if they soon need to import Linux from Russia, China and Africa - we added the William Shelter letter, that he wrote a few years later to his president
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2015-06-13T10:16:06Z kephra: i dont know how big the impact of the following panic was on EU patent laws
2015-06-13T10:16:13Z kephra: but a lot of people flamed me for that action
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2015-06-13T10:20:01Z beach: To me, it sounds like a fun thing to do.
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2015-06-13T10:26:52Z kephra: exactly. to cite you "we (who care about those things) have good contacts" ... its not necessary to become a politician, but just to know a few ones from parties
2015-06-13T10:27:52Z kephra: and single issue campains can be best done in small groups, imho
2015-06-13T10:28:28Z kephra: so, if you are about !one! thing - find friend and build a lobby group
2015-06-13T10:28:51Z kephra: ... perhaps that a to typical German Vereinsmeierei thinking
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2015-06-13T11:19:00Z Quiznos: mornin
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2015-06-13T11:29:57Z oleo_: morning
2015-06-13T11:32:22Z theos: mornin
2015-06-13T11:32:47Z Quiznos: i'm here!
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2015-06-13T13:55:24Z drmeister: I just ran into my first unusual method combination.     (defgeneric save-info (object) (:method-combination append :most-specific-last))
2015-06-13T13:55:36Z drmeister: Is this "append" method combination standard?
2015-06-13T13:55:45Z Xach: drmeister: practical common lisp uses method combinations like that too.
2015-06-13T13:56:21Z drmeister: The defgeneric works but I run into trouble the first time I try to call save-info
2015-06-13T13:56:40Z Xach: drmeister: it's built-in
2015-06-13T13:56:48Z Xach: drmeister: http://l1sp.org/cl/7.6.6.4
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2015-06-13T13:58:40Z drmeister: Ah - there we are - thank you very much.
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2015-06-13T14:00:31Z pjb: drmeister: method combinations are Common Lisp _monads_ !
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2015-06-13T15:12:02Z Lamapotato: Hi everyone! I wrote a program that determine the shortest path of the knight between two coordinates on the chessboard (i wrote it on java https://www.dropbox.com/s/ec79d4tua2u7c0r/ChessKnight.rar?dl=0 ) and now i need to write it on lisp, can anyone help me with that?
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2015-06-13T15:13:20Z pjb: Lamapotato: 1- learn lisp. 2- translate your algorithm.
2015-06-13T15:13:38Z pjb: Lamapotato: go to http://cliki.net/Getting+Started and http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial
2015-06-13T15:14:49Z pjb: Lamapotato: prepare for a surprise.
2015-06-13T15:15:53Z Lamapotato: Its not translating very well ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra%27s_algorithm ) :(
2015-06-13T15:16:27Z pjb: Lamapotato: lisp is an algorithmic programming language, with all the basic data types you can find in any other programming language.
2015-06-13T15:16:57Z pjb: Thre should be no difficulty in implementing directly such algorithm, even if it's true that one could often rewrite them using more specific lisp data structures or functions.
2015-06-13T15:16:58Z Grue`: Lamapotato: if there's a particular step you're having trouble with, it would be easier to help you
2015-06-13T15:18:01Z Shinmera has an implementation of Dijkstra's algorithm sitting around but is going to refrain from simply posting the solution to what sounds like an exercise.
2015-06-13T15:21:02Z pjb: Lamapotato: and I don't see that you've implemented Dijkstra's algorithm in your java code.
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2015-06-13T15:21:17Z pjb has a A* algo implemented.
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2015-06-13T15:24:01Z Lamapotato: pjb: well i wrote the code before i found about this algorithm, but when i found it i thought it looked similar with what i have written
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2015-06-13T15:28:42Z Lamapotato: in java when i need to have next step i just create new object of Knight class, in lisp... can anyone give me some links about chess in lisp?
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2015-06-13T16:50:37Z dim: Lamapotato: you can create a new object of Knight class in lisp pretty easily, what's stopping you?
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2015-06-13T16:58:16Z pjb: dim: went away.
2015-06-13T16:58:42Z aeth: In my experience, it's hard to find <X in Lisp> online, anyway.
2015-06-13T16:59:06Z aeth: It's better that way, though. You get to understand what you're writing. The only problem is the lack of libraries for a lot of things.
2015-06-13T17:04:05Z nyef: aeth: You know, I keep hearing about this "lack of libraries", but it seems to me that there are a whole lot of libraries, sometimes four or more for a single purpose. Do you have a list of what's actually missing?
2015-06-13T17:04:20Z pjb: A Knight library.
2015-06-13T17:04:24Z aeth: nyef: just about anything related to visual stuff is extremely lacking
2015-06-13T17:04:53Z aeth: nyef: there's like 5+ image libraries in quicklisp but none of them are useful for loading textures for OpenGL
2015-06-13T17:06:06Z nyef: And yet people manage to load textures for OpenGL anyway. How?
2015-06-13T17:06:15Z aeth: probably through a C library like SDL
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2015-06-13T17:06:26Z aeth: Anything that's traditionally done in C or C++ is probably going to be a thin wrapper over a foreign library if it's in Quicklisp at all.
2015-06-13T17:06:37Z aeth: As opposed to web stuff where there's a million libraries for everything
2015-06-13T17:07:13Z aeth: (there's finally 3 for YAML, a few years ago there were none... so yeah just about everything on the web has multiple libraries)
2015-06-13T17:07:38Z mood: What does YAML have to do with the web?
2015-06-13T17:07:45Z pjb: aeth: Just write more libraries!
2015-06-13T17:08:05Z aeth: mood: YAML's just a JSON derivative that's supposed to be more readable. A superset. JSON wouldn't exist if the Internet didn't
2015-06-13T17:08:21Z aeth: pjb: right, I'm just saying that as of right now there's not much for *desktop* CL
2015-06-13T17:09:47Z aeth: It looks like there's more CLIM related stuff on Quicklisp, but assuming they work that's UI circa mid 1980s to early 1990s
2015-06-13T17:10:33Z nyef: Although McCLIM was more of a 2000s project.
2015-06-13T17:11:20Z aeth: right, McCLIM is a 2000s clone of a 1990s implementation on 1980s concepts afaik
2015-06-13T17:11:52Z nyef: It's really too bad that those concepts got lost along the way.
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2015-06-13T17:12:24Z aeth: I'm trying to find a year for CLIM, but it definitely looks like pre-GNOME UNIXy suff (i.e. no good)
2015-06-13T17:12:34Z drmeister: I just discovered something that looks weird in the ECL source code.  (fdefinition '(lambda () 1))  --> a compiled function.
2015-06-13T17:13:15Z fe[nl]ix: aeth: look better
2015-06-13T17:13:19Z aeth: Design trends change, it'd probably be easier to write something based on today's trends, the whole "flat" interface etc. very centered on typography
2015-06-13T17:14:26Z aeth: fe[nl]ix: well I probably miss a lot of libraries because I'm basically just searching this page: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html
2015-06-13T17:14:27Z drmeister: It looks like I should replicate this behavior in Clasp to get (coerce '(lambda () 1) 'function) to work.
2015-06-13T17:15:26Z drmeister: It seems a bit weird to have FDEFINITION invoke the compiler - does anyone have any thoughts on this?
2015-06-13T17:16:16Z nyef: GNOME is when UNIX UI became "good"? WTF?
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2015-06-13T17:17:12Z aeth: nyef: replace "good" with "passable"
2015-06-13T17:17:34Z nyef: ... Still not buying it.
2015-06-13T17:17:37Z pjb: drmeister: it's not conforming, so it must be some ecl extension.
2015-06-13T17:17:51Z nyef: I get the distinct impression that your "unix" world is sharply limited.
2015-06-13T17:17:59Z pjb: aeth: use cliki to find libraries.
2015-06-13T17:18:30Z pjb: They are not all on quicklisp, notably graphic frameworks which may be more specific than sbcl.
2015-06-13T17:18:56Z nyef: And, as fascinating as this conversation is, I have an elsewhere to be.
2015-06-13T17:18:58Z pjb: UNIX UI was good only on NeXTSTEP with DisplayPostscript.
2015-06-13T17:19:11Z pjb: Some of it remains in MacOSX with Aqua, but we lost a lot.
2015-06-13T17:19:18Z nyef: pjb: Tell that to OpenLook!
2015-06-13T17:19:38Z nyef: Or what was that bit about SGI hardware, whatever they used?
2015-06-13T17:20:06Z pjb: drmeister: fdefinition takes a function name which is defined as: function name n. 1. (in an environment) A symbol or a list (setf symbol) that is the name of a function in that environment. 2. A symbol or a list (setf symbol).
2015-06-13T17:20:06Z pjb:  
2015-06-13T17:20:24Z pjb: a lambda expression is not a function name.  ecl is extending the language here (is it documented?).
2015-06-13T17:20:26Z aeth: pjb: I've used cliki before, and it's useful to see categories etc. especially when names are crytpic, but if it's not in Quicklisp it's not worth bothering with ime unless it's a new Github project that can basically just be added easily to my local quicklisp
2015-06-13T17:20:27Z drmeister: Right, it's not conforming.  I had read that.
2015-06-13T17:20:34Z nyef: Anyway, I was leaving.
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2015-06-13T17:21:21Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Zvpcoi61/
2015-06-13T17:21:34Z pjb: aeth: that's where you're wrong.  Notably, Lisp GUI frameworks were developed BEFORE MacOS, MS-Windows or Linux GUIs, and BEFORE sbcl was developed.  Don't forget that "compiles on sbcl" is the filtering criterial of quicklisp!
2015-06-13T17:21:49Z pjb: also: "has a asdf definition".
2015-06-13T17:22:01Z drmeister: Above is the ECL FDEFINITION function,  If the argument is a list it checks if the CAR is LAMBDA (see line 29)
2015-06-13T17:22:14Z drmeister: It's not documented as far as I can tell.
2015-06-13T17:22:46Z pjb: But since you seem to be overly concerned by OpenCL, you won't find much Lisp libraries targetting it.  (But Apple's going all Meta now, and nvidia going full cuda, etc, I doubt OpenCL will still exist in ten years).
2015-06-13T17:23:45Z aeth: OpenGL, i.e. how Linux does graphics.
2015-06-13T17:24:27Z aeth: I don't care if Apple switches to Metal for everything. OS X users probably are used to software not running on their OS anyway, if they've been using it long enough. :-p
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2015-06-13T17:25:24Z pjb: aeth: my point is that things are evolving fast, by non-lispers, therefore if you want libraries and frameworks, you don't have any other choice than programming them yourself!
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2015-06-13T17:26:04Z Bike: programming your own opengl is way more practical than using opengl, eh
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2015-06-13T17:27:17Z pjb: drmeister: ecl compiles lambda forms (what si_make_lambda does): http://paste.lisp.org/+37KW  Is that a problem for you?
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2015-06-13T17:28:03Z pjb: In any case, I would target cuda directly…
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2015-06-13T17:28:17Z aeth: Bike: that's actually what the consensus is now. The future is just to throw you a low level intermediate form and make everyone write their own compilers, etc. :-p
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2015-06-13T17:28:27Z pjb: exactly.
2015-06-13T17:28:36Z Bike: that seems to be how glsl works.
2015-06-13T17:28:56Z aeth: My impression of the whole glnext/vulkan thing is that drivers are such a mess of lots of workarounds and trying to be too smart that they're giving up and basically saying "Ok, the driver's going to be dumb now, make everything yourself"
2015-06-13T17:29:17Z Petit_Dejeuner_: But then what's the point?
2015-06-13T17:29:28Z Bike: portability layer
2015-06-13T17:29:40Z aeth: I guess that means nouveau will reach parity with the proprietary nvidia driver more easily except in the legacy OpenGL workarounds that the proprietary driver will still have.
2015-06-13T17:29:57Z Bike: opencl's like that too, though. there's a lot of stuff hidden but you can still control what order to comunicate with the coprocessor in, how it divvies up your tasks, bla bla bla
2015-06-13T17:30:10Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner_: Instead of making GLSL special, they'll just have GLSL compilers compile to an intermediate form, so that you could e.g. have a lisp-like shading language too
2015-06-13T17:30:37Z aeth: so they're basically trying to pull a Java or something
2015-06-13T17:30:38Z Bike: yeah the insistence on C is weird. i wanna try SPIR
2015-06-13T17:31:45Z aeth: right, so if you can get a Lisp-like language to compile to SPIR-V you can basically become one step closer to a lispm. The other step would of course be writing the SPIR-V->graphics part in Lisp too
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2015-06-13T17:33:16Z aeth: and that means a fancy effects-driven CL desktop would be possible, written entirely in CL
2015-06-13T17:33:58Z aeth: basically, a competitor to wayland
2015-06-13T17:34:18Z Bike: connection machine lisp to spir-v might be kinda fun, if it makes any sense at all
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2015-06-13T17:36:23Z drmeister: pjb: No, it's not a problem that ECL compiles lambda forms.  I don't use ECL's compilation code at all.   But using FDEFINITION to compile a lambda form is weird.
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2015-06-13T17:41:06Z drmeister: What I should do is modify SYS:COERCE-TO-FUNCTION to do the compilation of a lambda form.   In ECL SYS:COERCE-TO-FUNCTION calls FDEFINITION which is doing the compilation.
2015-06-13T17:41:32Z pjb: drmeister: the reason is that one may consider that lambda forms are the "name" of the "anonymous" function.  fdefinition accepting a lambda form is symetric to (function <name>) accepting (function (lambda …))
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2015-06-13T17:43:13Z Bike: i don't think fdefinition actually takes lambda expressions?
2015-06-13T17:43:43Z drmeister: Bike: It doesn't according to the CLHS.  But ECL's FDEFINITION does, and then it compiles them.
2015-06-13T17:43:56Z pjb: Bike: no, it doesn't/
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2015-06-13T17:44:10Z Bike: funky. does it compile for (coerce lambda-expression 'function)?
2015-06-13T17:44:27Z pjb: Yes.
2015-06-13T17:44:36Z pjb: drmeister: also, notice how ecl fdefinition takes a lambda expression but MUST return a function.
2015-06-13T17:44:46Z Bike: i thought ecl used an interpreter more often. whoops.
2015-06-13T17:45:01Z drmeister: I didn't replicate that strange, implementation dependent behavior of FDEFINITION and I just discovered that ECL's COERCE for functions depends on it.
2015-06-13T17:45:29Z drmeister: pjb: Yes.
2015-06-13T17:45:47Z drmeister: I think I'll replicate this behavior.  I don't know what else in the ECL CL source code may depend on it.
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2015-06-13T17:45:56Z drmeister: It's weird but apparently tolerated.
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2015-06-13T17:47:14Z Bike: coerce is the only function other than the obvious that can take a lambda expression and give you a function, so you could probably just move the fdefinition behavior to coerce and be done with it, unless ecl calls fdefinition a lot internally
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2015-06-13T18:03:58Z aeth: LLGPL or LGPL?
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2015-06-13T18:09:00Z Quiznos: a license for twisted thinking?
2015-06-13T18:11:23Z pjb: aeth: AGPL3
2015-06-13T18:11:47Z Shinmera: Artistic
2015-06-13T18:11:52Z pjb: Afero
2015-06-13T18:11:56Z Quiznos: is there anyone here who is also familiar with Forth also?
2015-06-13T18:12:12Z Quiznos: i have mixed code quesstions
2015-06-13T18:12:20Z pjb: I wrote one or two little forth programs in the 80s on Mac.
2015-06-13T18:12:35Z Quiznos: kool; youll due :0
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2015-06-13T18:13:11Z aeth: pjb: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.en.html
2015-06-13T18:13:16Z aeth: " The most common case is when a free library's features are readily available for proprietary software through other alternative libraries. In that case, the library cannot give free software any particular advantage, so it is better to use the Lesser GPL for that library."
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2015-06-13T18:13:28Z Quiznos: 1st, i'm tryin to mentally match lisp internals re fexprs and and other list types to forth word struct.
2015-06-13T18:13:45Z aeth: pjb: So for most code people will be writing for Lisp libraries (stuff already written a million times not under the GPL), the FSF itself would recommend not using the GPL
2015-06-13T18:13:48Z pjb: aeth: there are almost zero proprietary libraries written in CL therefore LGPL is not useful.
2015-06-13T18:13:51Z Quiznos: i think i get that lisp fexprs wold correspond to forth's CFA with docol value.
2015-06-13T18:14:16Z aeth: pjb: yes but the alternatives are (1) not using CL and (2) using CFFI, both will be used
2015-06-13T18:14:20Z pjb: FSVO "correspond".
2015-06-13T18:14:32Z Quiznos: equivalent to
2015-06-13T18:14:32Z aeth: CFFI is annoying but the C libraries will be mature, faster, and have more features
2015-06-13T18:14:49Z Quiznos: duno FSVO
2015-06-13T18:14:56Z pjb: For Some Value Of
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2015-06-13T18:15:05Z Quiznos: meaning what?
2015-06-13T18:15:28Z pjb: Granted this is #lisp, not #scheme, but since CL doesn't have fexprs, you should have asked on ##lisp anyways :-)
2015-06-13T18:15:38Z Quiznos: oh
2015-06-13T18:15:43Z pjb: Meanings that if you define "correspond" with the right definition then yes.
2015-06-13T18:15:51Z Quiznos: you dont talk about ancient lisps here?
2015-06-13T18:15:59Z pjb: Only in relation to CL.
2015-06-13T18:16:08Z Quiznos: ok; i'm trying to match lisptypes to forth types
2015-06-13T18:16:14Z Quiznos: oh
2015-06-13T18:16:20Z pjb: Nowadays, we use macros instead of fexprs.
2015-06-13T18:16:28Z aeth: fexprs?
2015-06-13T18:16:29Z pjb: Macros receive their parameters unevaluated.
2015-06-13T18:16:51Z Quiznos: how are machine language functions distinguished from HL functions?
2015-06-13T18:16:58Z Quiznos: in cl
2015-06-13T18:17:01Z pjb: The difference is that fexprs were called at run-time (in the interpreter, perhaps in the compiler they had ways to call them at compilation time, I don't know), but macros are expanded at compilation time.
2015-06-13T18:17:08Z pjb: Quiznos: they are not.
2015-06-13T18:17:25Z Quiznos: there has to be bc the call convention is different.
2015-06-13T18:17:33Z pjb: Well, actually any function from the CL package can be processed specially by the compiler, but otherwise, there's no distinction.
2015-06-13T18:17:50Z Quiznos: but i'm not talking about compiling/translating
2015-06-13T18:17:59Z pjb: Quiznos: the language of the machine is Common Lisp!
2015-06-13T18:18:04Z Quiznos: no.
2015-06-13T18:18:13Z Quiznos: the hardware cpu is the machine.
2015-06-13T18:18:16Z pjb: Then it's not considered by the CL language.
2015-06-13T18:18:21Z pjb: It's a problem for implementers.
2015-06-13T18:18:23Z Quiznos: CL is the HL bit patern of a vm
2015-06-13T18:18:28Z pjb: Cf. #sbcl, #ecl, #ccl etc.
2015-06-13T18:18:33Z `dwr: not a vm
2015-06-13T18:18:41Z `dwr: cl can compile directly to machine code and usually is
2015-06-13T18:18:43Z Quiznos: not litealy, but still a vm.
2015-06-13T18:18:44Z pjb: yes, vm, and the m in vm means Machine.
2015-06-13T18:19:01Z pjb: Hence CL is a Machine language, for a CL VM as implemented by any CL implementation.
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2015-06-13T18:19:48Z Quiznos: so a vm is writen in C compiled to a hw ml, interpreting a lisp executing within a c-coded vm.
2015-06-13T18:19:55Z Quiznos: ok
2015-06-13T18:20:27Z pjb: The implementation of VM is left to the implementation.  Usually, my VM are implemented in CL.
2015-06-13T18:20:31Z pjb: Definitely not C.
2015-06-13T18:20:35Z Quiznos: k
2015-06-13T18:20:42Z Quiznos: implementation languages aside
2015-06-13T18:21:01Z pjb: Do you have any Common Lisp question?
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2015-06-13T18:21:26Z Quiznos: how are c-coded function expressions distinguished from lisp-coded function exprs?
2015-06-13T18:21:38Z pjb: They are not.
2015-06-13T18:21:44Z pjb: Quiznos: take for example clisp.
2015-06-13T18:21:48Z Quiznos: k
2015-06-13T18:22:04Z pjb: In clisp, some CL functions are implemented in C, some other are implemented in CL.
2015-06-13T18:22:10Z Quiznos: yes
2015-06-13T18:22:10Z pjb: There's no useful distinction.
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2015-06-13T18:22:34Z Quiznos: i dont think i'm explaining myself well.
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2015-06-13T18:22:54Z Quiznos: pjb let's try this in terms of ancient forth?
2015-06-13T18:23:05Z Quiznos: a threaded forth
2015-06-13T18:23:19Z `dwr: https://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/doc/cmu-user/compiler-hint.html#toc189 "The decision to byte compile or native compile can be done on a per-file or per-code-object basis."
2015-06-13T18:23:21Z pjb: #+clisp: (function nset-difference) --> #<COMPILED-FUNCTION NSET-DIFFERENCE>  (function delete) --> #<SYSTEM-FUNCTION DELETE>
2015-06-13T18:23:37Z pjb: From that you could infer that delete was implemented in C and nset-difference in CL.  So what?
2015-06-13T18:24:26Z Quiznos: i want to add lispy features and capabilities to a forth i'm designing and i want to be smart aboutit and how it should be done.
2015-06-13T18:24:29Z pjb: There is no standard operator to distinguish them.  You can distinguish a function and a compiled-function, but not a system function.
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2015-06-13T18:24:36Z Quiznos: i dont want to layer lisp ontop of tho
2015-06-13T18:25:17Z Quiznos: pjb do you remember the CFA values, the function address that were ued?
2015-06-13T18:25:23Z pjb: Quiznos: perhaps you could read the dictionaries in the chapters of clhs, choose one you like, and implement a selection of types and functions from it?
2015-06-13T18:25:43Z pjb: eg. you might be happy implementing: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_conses.htm
2015-06-13T18:25:48Z Quiznos: ok; is "clhs" a google keyword?
2015-06-13T18:25:59Z pjb: It is.
2015-06-13T18:26:01Z Quiznos: i know what i cons cell is.
2015-06-13T18:26:05Z Quiznos: ok
2015-06-13T18:26:15Z pjb: But you want the list of standard functions coming along.
2015-06-13T18:26:25Z Quiznos: i have a basic understanding of lisp
2015-06-13T18:26:27Z Quiznos: ya
2015-06-13T18:26:35Z Quiznos: the funcs of 1.5 are enuf
2015-06-13T18:27:13Z Quiznos: the only real difficulty i have is groking early and late binding.
2015-06-13T18:27:21Z Quiznos: still struggling with those terms.
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2015-06-13T18:27:34Z pjb: I don't know what that means.
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2015-06-13T18:27:43Z pjb: In CL we have lexical binding and dynamic binding. That's all.
2015-06-13T18:27:43Z Quiznos: which word?
2015-06-13T18:27:47Z Quiznos: ok
2015-06-13T18:27:55Z pjb: early and late binding.
2015-06-13T18:28:18Z Quiznos: so there are 4 terms used to indicate when a value for a name is sought?
2015-06-13T18:28:56Z `dwr: in cl it's evaluated unless it's quoted - ie specifically said not to be evaluated. if you want later than that you just pass the code around literally and evaluate it later
2015-06-13T18:29:07Z Quiznos: ok; i get that
2015-06-13T18:29:24Z Quiznos: similar to forth quoting to prevent eval at compile time
2015-06-13T18:29:45Z Quiznos: ansi forth's postpone
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2015-06-13T18:32:26Z ruut: What is the less strict topic lisp channel name?
2015-06-13T18:32:45Z pjb: ##lisp for lisp stuff #lispcafe for random stuff.
2015-06-13T18:33:33Z ruut: pjb: thanks! which one can I ask beginner questions about lisp in without getting yelled at?
2015-06-13T18:33:42Z pjb: About Cl, #clnoobs
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2015-06-13T18:33:56Z pjb: otherwise ##lisp
2015-06-13T18:34:07Z ruut: thanks
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2015-06-13T18:52:57Z jackdaniel: i see #lisp is famous for it's wrm welcome for newcomers, they ask where shold they go at the very start ^^
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2015-06-13T19:08:15Z puchacz: hi, what do you people use as a generic set of small utils? I use arnesi, but it is dated 2010 in quicklisp....
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2015-06-13T19:08:48Z puchacz: and it is not on the list of 'recommended libraries' on cliki
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2015-06-13T19:09:44Z jackdaniel: puchacz: i use alexandria and cl-utilities, plus my-utilities in local-dists
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2015-06-13T19:10:30Z jackdaniel: first two overlap a bit
2015-06-13T19:11:11Z puchacz: arnesi works for me, but I think something up-to-date may play better with existing implementations and libraries on quicklisp
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2015-06-13T19:12:13Z jackdaniel: if it's written in portable cl (what is possible with small utils), then it should be alright despite time
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2015-06-13T19:12:43Z jackdaniel: lack of updates may mean, that it doesn't have issues anymore
2015-06-13T19:12:43Z puchacz: the thing is that other libraries evolve, like puri
2015-06-13T19:13:07Z puchacz: and arnesi has bits of all, that at the moment may be better implemented in other libraries
2015-06-13T19:13:20Z jackdaniel: generic utilities are library independent in my understanding
2015-06-13T19:15:23Z jackdaniel: for mop there is closer-mop
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2015-06-13T19:18:53Z puchacz: jackdaniel: arnesi has mopp as well: http://quickdocs.org/arnesi%2B/api
2015-06-13T19:19:19Z jackdaniel: yes, I've popped into it, hence my note about closer-mop
2015-06-13T19:19:34Z jackdaniel: it has a lot of bits, and many doesn't seem very generic for me
2015-06-13T19:20:13Z jackdaniel: I mean, I tought you mean something more /generic/, less versatile
2015-06-13T19:20:18Z puchacz: I have an impression that original author (segv) wrote it when not many libraries were available, so by now I may be better off if I clean up my code and wean off arnesi...
2015-06-13T19:20:59Z pjb: puchacz: I use Cesarum.  It's the library built on the cenders of Alexandria…
2015-06-13T19:21:01Z jackdaniel: if it works for you, I think that effort won't payoff, but gl
2015-06-13T19:21:58Z puchacz: this is why I am not looking for hard advice, just polling opinions :-)
2015-06-13T19:22:14Z pjb: puchacz: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum that is.
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2015-06-13T19:23:54Z puchacz: also, do you know why puri branch that is on quicklisp is not https://github.com/archimag/puri-unicode ?
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2015-06-13T19:24:14Z puchacz: I did encounter some unicode problems so I put puri-unicode to my local-projects to override default
2015-06-13T19:24:31Z pjb: because nobody asked Xach to include https://github.com/archimag/puri-unicode in Quicklisp.
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2015-06-13T19:24:44Z puchacz: Xach ;-) ?
2015-06-13T19:24:46Z puchacz: you around?
2015-06-13T19:24:46Z pjb: what about a pull request?
2015-06-13T19:25:14Z puchacz: pull request to have quicklisp modified?
2015-06-13T19:26:04Z jackdaniel: that's how things work I believe
2015-06-13T19:26:06Z Bike: the quicklisp projects repo is about that stuff
2015-06-13T19:26:07Z pjb: no to merge the unicode patches to the one that's distributed by quicklisp.
2015-06-13T19:26:43Z puchacz: ah, ok.
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2015-06-13T20:38:14Z stacksmith: Can someone point me to a detailed explanation of how the 3 parameters of after-change-functions are affected by various operations?
2015-06-13T20:38:55Z stacksmith: sorry, I thought I was in #emacs
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2015-06-13T21:03:29Z tmtwd: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149820
2015-06-13T21:03:44Z tmtwd: can someone tell me the difference between these 2 functions?
2015-06-13T21:03:56Z tmtwd: the second one works, the first one will crash the program
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2015-06-13T21:04:19Z tmtwd: I've been staring at it for a few minutes now, they look identical to me
2015-06-13T21:04:29Z pinterface: letter O vs. number 0
2015-06-13T21:05:17Z tmtwd: oh yeah :) thanks
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2015-06-13T21:21:27Z tmtwd: what is the meaning of the function copy-region-as-kill? isn't it just copy?
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2015-06-13T21:23:27Z tmtwd: oops meant to be emacs
2015-06-13T21:27:27Z tmtwd: oh, I see, keyword parameters can be entered in any order?
2015-06-13T21:29:10Z Bike: they can.
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2015-06-13T21:47:21Z drmeister: Hmm, standard method combination works fine in Clasp, but APPEND method combination fails.   (sigh) - I have to dive back into the implementation details of CLOS
2015-06-13T21:47:27Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/mTsZ34ds/
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2015-06-13T22:17:27Z tmtwd: "..."];" how do I write this so that the closing quotation is the last one?
2015-06-13T22:18:51Z Petit_Dejeuner_: \" ?
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2015-06-13T22:19:14Z Petit_Dejeuner_: As in "...\"];"
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2015-06-13T22:21:20Z tmtwd: yup
2015-06-13T22:21:21Z tmtwd: thanks
2015-06-13T22:23:17Z drmeister: Are STANDARD-METHOD's ever APPLY'd to arguments?
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2015-06-13T22:24:03Z drmeister: No - right?  STANDARD-METHOD's are combined to form an effective method and the effective method is APPLY'd to arguments.
2015-06-13T22:28:11Z PuercoPop: is there a way to extract a variable value from a file in a Makefile akin to ASDF's :read-file-form?
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2015-06-13T22:47:51Z tmtwd: is there a list of all the caar caaardr cdrar variations somewhere?
2015-06-13T22:48:14Z tmtwd: I know car and cdr but nothing else :(
2015-06-13T22:50:06Z oleo: cadr, cdar, cadar, cadadr, caddr........
2015-06-13T22:50:47Z `dwr: cadr = car of cdr, cdar = cdr of car, cadar = car of cdr of car, and so on
2015-06-13T22:52:21Z Shinmera: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
2015-06-13T22:52:54Z `dwr: cabracadabrar = exactly the element you want in an arbitrarily complex tree
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2015-06-13T23:03:48Z drmeister: Grrrr - found the problem.
2015-06-13T23:04:09Z drmeister: In Clasp the C++ Instance_O object inherits from Function_O because instances are funcallable.
2015-06-13T23:04:30Z drmeister: STANARD-METHOD objects are implemented as Instance_O objects.
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2015-06-13T23:04:59Z drmeister: So  (functionp  a-method) --> T  when it should return NIL because methods are not directly funcallable.
2015-06-13T23:05:13Z drmeister: In ECL (functionp a-method) --> NIL
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2015-06-13T23:08:40Z drmeister: So (CLOS::EFFECTIVE-METHOD-FUNCTION a-method) would return a-method (wrong) rather than the result of (method-function a-method)
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2015-06-13T23:24:34Z Bike: isn't that what funcallable-standard-object is for
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2015-06-13T23:44:49Z akkad: address-string is hunchentoot is such a bad idea...
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