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2015-06-12T09:14:11Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T09:15:25Z alladia quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-06-12T09:15:43Z alladia joined #lisp 2015-06-12T09:16:19Z aerique_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T09:16:26Z aerique joined #lisp 2015-06-12T09:16:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-06-12T09:17:00Z H4ns: it seems that there is some version screwup between slime and swank, as swank does seem to have swank-repl:listener-eval. i used quicklisp-slime-helper, though, or at least so i thought. 2015-06-12T09:17:51Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-06-12T09:21:26Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T09:23:48Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T09:26:00Z ajtulloch quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-06-12T09:27:19Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-06-12T09:27:50Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-06-12T09:34:29Z alesguzik joined #lisp 2015-06-12T09:34:55Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-06-12T09:43:27Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T09:47:25Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-06-12T09:47:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-06-12T09:50:53Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-06-12T09:53:12Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-06-12T09:55:03Z Kooda joined #lisp 2015-06-12T09:56:01Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-06-12T09:57:04Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T09:59:28Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T10:00:09Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:02:01Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:02:01Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T10:06:16Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:09:02Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-06-12T10:11:49Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T10:12:12Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:13:43Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:13:45Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:13:59Z milosn quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-06-12T10:15:49Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:16:00Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-06-12T10:16:19Z killmaster joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:17:29Z eagleflo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T10:22:27Z loke joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:25:08Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2015-06-12T10:25:13Z eagleflo joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:25:38Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:29:00Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T10:29:46Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T10:32:00Z pnathan joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:32:10Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:33:21Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:34:46Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T10:35:59Z MasterPiece quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2015-06-12T10:39:24Z Xach: H4ns: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "swank")? 2015-06-12T10:39:34Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:42:24Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:43:05Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-06-12T10:47:07Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T10:47:16Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T10:50:09Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T10:52:35Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T10:59:04Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:02:48Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:02:53Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-06-12T11:04:13Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T11:04:27Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:04:58Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:10:18Z akkad: is there a way to disable the version info banner labels off of 404 pages on hunchentoot? 2015-06-12T11:10:22Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T11:11:46Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T11:13:58Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T11:14:56Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:15:16Z Xach: Shinmera: FYI, your TmpNMw== header image loads very, very slowly in the USA. 2MB at under 500k/sec 2015-06-12T11:16:25Z Xach: (at imagemagick quality=80 it is only 400k but is visually identical as far as i can tell...) 2015-06-12T11:16:53Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:17:15Z dim: there's a major hick-up at Level3 today, which might explains that, Xach 2015-06-12T11:19:39Z Xach: maybe I'm having a flashback. 2MB for an ornamental jpeg still seems a tad large... 2015-06-12T11:19:56Z Xach: I suppose I'm just spoiled by most things loading much more quickly. 2015-06-12T11:20:38Z rme: I am suspicious that the interchange point between bbox.fr and Level 3 has been affecting me since last Saturday. 2015-06-12T11:20:38Z rme quit (Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T11:20:49Z rme_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:21:50Z rme_: As demonstrated. 2015-06-12T11:25:10Z rme_: Not the best French ISP for me, since the path to my most important machines goes through Level 3. 2015-06-12T11:25:37Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-06-12T11:25:45Z rme_ is now known as rme 2015-06-12T11:26:33Z Shinmera: Xach: My internet is so fast nowadays I don't even think about things like that anymore. Whoops! 2015-06-12T11:27:07Z Xach: Shinmera: i rarely do, but i guess the combo of latency + bandwidth squeeze + size made it more apparent to me today 2015-06-12T11:27:18Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:27:18Z Shinmera: Yeah, I'll go ahead and run an optimize pass on it 2015-06-12T11:27:38Z Xach: I thought it might have been a very large PNG at first 2015-06-12T11:31:30Z Shinmera: Ok, optimized it a bit. 2015-06-12T11:33:13Z jdm_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:34:01Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-06-12T11:39:11Z Xach: thanks. way less time to fetch. 2015-06-12T11:40:18Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2015-06-12T11:40:27Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:42:50Z Kooda quit (Quit: Squee!) 2015-06-12T11:43:15Z Kooda joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:44:40Z MasterPiece quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T11:46:23Z Shinmera: Still weird, since Cloudflare's CDN should distribute the image. Maybe something's going wrong there. 2015-06-12T11:48:32Z alesguzik quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-06-12T11:50:00Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T11:54:58Z JuanDaugherty: pjb, that's what I thought 2015-06-12T11:55:18Z alesguzik joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:56:18Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-06-12T11:57:35Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:01:01Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:02:36Z usrj joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:03:19Z Guest14823 left #lisp 2015-06-12T12:03:40Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:03:48Z usrj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T12:06:18Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T12:07:12Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:07:33Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:07:42Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:11:00Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T12:12:46Z loz1: by the way 2015-06-12T12:13:51Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:13:53Z loz1: are there any common lisp related news, discussions, etc resources around? 2015-06-12T12:15:01Z pjb: https://lisp.space/ http://planet.lisp.org/ news:comp.lang.lisp irc://irc.freenode.org/#lisp etc. 2015-06-12T12:15:09Z pjb: http://cliki.net 2015-06-12T12:15:26Z pjb: loz1: just use google, type lisp and some random word. 2015-06-12T12:15:30Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:15:39Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T12:16:29Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:16:30Z loz1: >Lisp repos currently trending on GitHub 2015-06-12T12:16:30Z loz1: >>rust-mode - Emacs configuration for Rust 2015-06-12T12:16:33Z loz1: ... 2015-06-12T12:17:28Z loz1: pjb: thanks 2015-06-12T12:18:41Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2015-06-12T12:19:19Z ronh_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:20:22Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-06-12T12:22:29Z Mhoram quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T12:22:34Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T12:23:01Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:25:17Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:25:42Z ktt9 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:25:54Z ktt9 left #lisp 2015-06-12T12:26:00Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:26:12Z jdm_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:27:00Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2015-06-12T12:27:19Z Xach: loz1: reddit.com/r/lisp, twitter #lisp search 2015-06-12T12:27:22Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:27:44Z Beetny_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:29:42Z loz1: planet.lisp is the mmost interesting so far 2015-06-12T12:29:52Z Xach: It's not updated as often as it should be 2015-06-12T12:30:33Z jdm_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:30:57Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:31:41Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:31:45Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:32:02Z isaac_rks joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:33:19Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:35:34Z malice joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:35:38Z shum joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:35:40Z jdm_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:37:08Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T12:37:37Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:37:44Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:37:54Z shum quit (Client Quit) 2015-06-12T12:39:01Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:40:28Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:40:31Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:40:56Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:43:40Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:44:32Z Shinmera: People keepin' their lisp secrets to themselves! 2015-06-12T12:44:34Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:48:05Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T12:48:59Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:51:06Z malice joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:51:18Z alesguzik quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-06-12T12:51:50Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:52:11Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:52:40Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:52:51Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T12:58:12Z rotty joined #lisp 2015-06-12T12:59:40Z beach: We need to go easy on people who don't realize the power of Common Lisp compared to what they already know and what they think is the cats pajamas. They might suffer a terrible psychological chock with severe depression as a result. 2015-06-12T13:00:31Z isaac_rks: clisp sux bro 2015-06-12T13:00:52Z isaac_rks: only old men use clisp 2015-06-12T13:01:01Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T13:01:03Z isaac_rks: savs use racket 2015-06-12T13:01:03Z p_l: isaac_rks: if you want to troll, get better style, really :| 2015-06-12T13:01:37Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-06-12T13:02:01Z p_l: there had been some funny trolls in the history of this channel. You're not one of them ;* 2015-06-12T13:02:09Z beach: That's an example of the kind of denial that I am talking about. It's a natural psychological protection mechanism designed to avoid the terrible chock I mentioned. 2015-06-12T13:02:51Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:02:54Z theos: isaac_rks its CL not clisp :P 2015-06-12T13:03:12Z dim: yesterday again chatting with a former OpenBSD contributor lead to what you're mentionning or almost, beach 2015-06-12T13:03:21Z isaac_rks: what are the advantages of clisp over scheme tho 2015-06-12T13:03:32Z isaac_rks: if u say libraries i say clojure :^) 2015-06-12T13:03:48Z dim: when he first said "you can't write an OS in lisp" and then when I mentionned live hacking the kernel and drivers to fix'em without rebooting added "I don't think that's how it works" 2015-06-12T13:04:02Z p_l: dim: have you shown him mezzano? 2015-06-12T13:04:03Z dim: it's not so much denial as "I know it can't be done" 2015-06-12T13:04:05Z dim: p_l: yes 2015-06-12T13:04:07Z p_l: :D 2015-06-12T13:04:13Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:04:14Z dim: movitz and Open Genera too 2015-06-12T13:04:19Z beach: dim: Interesting. 2015-06-12T13:04:35Z p_l: another thing though is that Open Genera, Movitz and afaik Mezzano eschew any security in order to do that 2015-06-12T13:04:49Z beach: dim: That *IS* denial. It just can't be true, or their world will fall apart. 2015-06-12T13:05:38Z dim: actually the thing is public: https://twitter.com/tapoueh/status/608948389485621248 2015-06-12T13:05:47Z beach: Oh, yummy! 2015-06-12T13:06:08Z kami joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:07:24Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:07:35Z dim: franckly I've stopped counting the mind blowns I've been having with CL, where lots of my assumptions about how to develop and run code have been exploded 2015-06-12T13:07:58Z dim: e.g. I used to dislike OOP a lot, now I just use CLOS ;-) 2015-06-12T13:08:03Z dim: (sometimes) 2015-06-12T13:09:08Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:11:30Z beach: dim: I have quit trying to talk to people about it. They don't believe it anyway, and there is nothing I can do to change it, at least not with a reasonable investment in energy and time. I am glad that others keep trying, though. 2015-06-12T13:12:37Z dim: how could I live without (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) in my .sbclrc, I don't know. 2015-06-12T13:12:48Z dim: I mean I just installed it now and feel so stupid 2015-06-12T13:13:22Z dim: beach: in that case, I've met with the guy in person before, and I know he's willing to learn new things and be mind blown 2015-06-12T13:14:02Z dim: also, he knows so much more about how a computer works than I do that I can't explain to him in the proper terms 2015-06-12T13:14:02Z beach: Excellent. He seems to be an Icelander. They usually have open minds. 2015-06-12T13:14:17Z dim: all I can do is have him interested enough to try it for himself 2015-06-12T13:14:43Z beach: Yeah, that's the kind of person who *might* ultimately "get it". 2015-06-12T13:14:43Z przl joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:15:01Z dim: I mean he's been hacking OS kernel, file systems, low level locking depending on the hardware architectures and all the jazz 2015-06-12T13:20:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:21:04Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-06-12T13:23:07Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2015-06-12T13:23:42Z p_l: I wonder how hackable OS/400 is. Outside of few bits of "life support" it's completely bytecoded virtual machine even for kernel mode code 2015-06-12T13:23:48Z bishopj joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:24:25Z bishopj: hello, does anyone here know if there is a bootstrap lisp written in forth that is available for me to read? 2015-06-12T13:24:36Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:25:03Z beach: bishopj: You might want to check with nyef when comes online. He works a lot with Forth. 2015-06-12T13:25:37Z bishopj: Will attempt to do that. Thank you beach 2015-06-12T13:27:24Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:27:29Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T13:27:56Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:28:54Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:29:00Z beach: May I ask why are you interested in such a thing? 2015-06-12T13:29:06Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T13:30:40Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:30:44Z Denommus quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-06-12T13:31:12Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:31:15Z Denommus quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-06-12T13:31:38Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:31:42Z Denommus quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-06-12T13:31:46Z bishopj: doing a project that will bootstrap debian on a new hardware platform via hex -> min assembler -> assembler -> min forth -> forth -> min lisp -> lisp -> C -> GCC -> etc 2015-06-12T13:32:09Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:32:20Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:32:52Z bishopj: The first step is going to involve a paper tape reader :D 2015-06-12T13:32:58Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:33:02Z Denommus quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-06-12T13:33:11Z dim: sounds fun ;-) 2015-06-12T13:33:23Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:33:25Z Denommus quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-06-12T13:33:51Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T13:34:24Z bishopj: It is and I figure it can also disprove any trusted trust attack in the gnu stack 2015-06-12T13:34:32Z ehu1 is now known as ehu 2015-06-12T13:35:11Z H4ns: *chuckle* 2015-06-12T13:35:36Z bishopj: ??? 2015-06-12T13:36:37Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:36:41Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T13:37:23Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:38:00Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T13:41:11Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:42:13Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:42:33Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T13:44:40Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:46:18Z alejandrozf joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:46:24Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:47:42Z candidtim joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:51:15Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:51:38Z alejandrozf quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-06-12T13:51:55Z cluck: bishopj: the problem with turtles is they go all the way down. who's to say the hw doesn't have "special" features, it's not like unspecifiable behavior or microcode transpiling isn't a thing, for all you know all sw stacks you input from scratch could be made vulnerable by the hw itself and you'd never know better, even looking and double-checking with other machines wouldn't show it 2015-06-12T13:52:26Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T13:52:43Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T13:53:36Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:53:53Z bishopj: cluck, actually I made the hardware myself in NAND Gates and Core Memory 2015-06-12T13:54:53Z lieven: of course we could be living in a simulation :) 2015-06-12T13:55:24Z bishopj: lieven: In which case, you win :D 2015-06-12T13:55:38Z Bike: betcha doped your transistors wrong, what now 2015-06-12T13:56:08Z tuborgman joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:56:10Z bishopj: Bike, sorry am using bought NAND gates 2015-06-12T13:56:42Z bishopj: I am no where smart enough to go below that 2015-06-12T13:58:31Z bishopj: I've accepted that NAND gates probably are a trust worthy layer but I have no idea what attacks could happen at that level 2015-06-12T13:58:44Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:58:47Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-06-12T13:58:52Z bishopj: or let alone below that O_O 2015-06-12T13:58:55Z cluck: (and before anyone pulls the "that's paranoid" card remember there are plenty of known cases of bypassing the sw stack, like nsa's hdd firmware rootkits, memory page fault turing complete computing, the recent "below ring 0"/smm hypervisor, chipset malware, etc) 2015-06-12T13:59:04Z Bike: Stealthy Dopant-Level Hardware Trojans http://sharps.org/wp-content/uploads/BECKER-CHES.pdf 2015-06-12T13:59:18Z Shinmera: That's paranoid. 2015-06-12T13:59:25Z Bike: yeah, but isn't it cool? 2015-06-12T13:59:40Z Shinmera: It is fancy. 2015-06-12T13:59:41Z H4ns: with a planned stack like the one bishopj has proposed, i have trouble with the use of the words "proven" and "trust". 2015-06-12T14:00:34Z bishopj: Bike: but how could that be used against NAND gates? 2015-06-12T14:00:37Z H4ns: it may be a nice experiment to do, but in the end, there will way way too many open ends to call such a system "trusted" more than one would call some other system "trusted". 2015-06-12T14:01:43Z Bike: bishopj: in this case, you mess up some flipflops so that the hardware rng has insufficient entropy to be secure. 2015-06-12T14:01:44Z bishopj: H4ns: I figure, get it all working and let other people find the flaws in my work 2015-06-12T14:02:02Z H4ns: yeah right. the analysis will take a day or two. 2015-06-12T14:02:10Z Rashad joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:02:17Z H4ns: but go ahead. it will be a great experience for yourself :) 2015-06-12T14:03:17Z Rashad: Hello. Here https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html he says that: "Instead of defining types, [in Lisp] you build structures from these types." 2015-06-12T14:03:19Z bishopj: Bike: the design is made of independent physical ICs on bread boards 2015-06-12T14:03:38Z Rashad: Does this mean there are no classes or that there is classes but in many cases you don't need them? 2015-06-12T14:03:54Z Bike: well, presumably you have some kind of flip flop, and you can make those of NANDs 2015-06-12T14:04:01Z bishopj: And since all the ICs are NANDs 2015-06-12T14:04:20Z Bike: Rashad: lisp has classes. stallman is probably not a great source on lisp. 2015-06-12T14:04:39Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T14:04:42Z smokeink_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:04:50Z Bike: Rashad: though what he actually seems to be saying is just that lisp has heterogenuous arrays and lists, which is true. 2015-06-12T14:04:54Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-06-12T14:05:12Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-06-12T14:05:22Z bishopj: Bike: It means that I can compare every IC against a trivial spec 2015-06-12T14:05:24Z Rashad: As in dynamic typing like js? 2015-06-12T14:05:42Z Bike: as in you can have different classes of objects in the same list, like (4, "foo") 2015-06-12T14:05:53Z Bike: of course, that's not very exciting nowadays, since javascript and python and so on let you do that as well. 2015-06-12T14:05:59Z Rashad: But you can do that in C# and I guess also in Java. 2015-06-12T14:06:01Z cluck: Shinmera: paranoid? not even close. i wouldn't be surprised if in a few years someone comes up with a genetic algorithm to probe memristive behavior in hardware and uses it to build a completely stealthy computing platform atop existing hardware that is oblivious to memristive physics (this might sound fancy but it's not theoretically impossible, in fact there's precedent of unexpected physical behavior being used to subvert security in 2015-06-12T14:06:01Z cluck: that attack that continuously writes to memory in order to flip bits in protected memory space) 2015-06-12T14:06:13Z Bike: bishopj: you can't see the dopant level fuckups in a decap. 2015-06-12T14:06:22Z Shinmera: cluck: cool story bro 2015-06-12T14:06:29Z Kooda: ~/b 14 2015-06-12T14:06:38Z Bike: bishopj: anyway, i'm not proposing this as a serious attack, given you'd need control over a TSMC fab or something similarly fanciful 2015-06-12T14:06:52Z drmeister: I'm running my first attempt at open coding of a function today with Clasp. 2015-06-12T14:07:01Z cluck: Shinmera: (also, hw backdoors have been found in the past, so there's that too) 2015-06-12T14:07:16Z Bike: in reality if i wanted to break something i'd probably just fake an NSA security letter and tell em to give me their passwords 2015-06-12T14:07:24Z bishopj: But would I need to? Since every IC is NAND and all imports and outputs can be tested in a minute by hand 2015-06-12T14:07:33Z nyef: drmeister: Good luck! 2015-06-12T14:07:54Z Bike: doing that for the million nands in anything that could run forth sounds tiresome 2015-06-12T14:07:57Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2015-06-12T14:08:07Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T14:08:17Z drmeister: I'm taking the Clasp bootstrapping build system and injecting a cleavir source file right at the start that will hook into CL:PROCLAIM and DEFUN to gather everything needed to open code functions DECLAIM'd to be INLINE. 2015-06-12T14:08:23Z Bike: maybe one could fancy things up so that the hack is time-dependent 2015-06-12T14:08:27Z bishopj: Bike: took me 16 weeks to build the hardware 2015-06-12T14:08:48Z Bike: if you have a whole IC for each gate there's probably enough space for some crap like that 2015-06-12T14:09:04Z bishopj: runs at 600 instructions per second 2015-06-12T14:09:14Z Bike: that's cool. 2015-06-12T14:09:29Z drmeister: If I (DECLAIM (inline cl:consp)) - is it expected that I do it before I DEFUN CL:CONSP? 2015-06-12T14:09:55Z Bike: probably a good idea, yeah. that way defun can know to keep the source around. 2015-06-12T14:09:55Z H4ns: bishopj: did you make a rough calculation how long your bootstrap process will take, in real time, at that instruction execution rate? 2015-06-12T14:09:58Z bishopj: The biggest space and time havings was the 8MB of Core I bought 2015-06-12T14:10:19Z drmeister: Otherwise I have to store the AST of every function just in case a DECLAIM is evaluated at any time after the function is DEFUN'd 2015-06-12T14:10:55Z bishopj: H4ns: about 1.2 years 2015-06-12T14:11:12Z drmeister: Question #2: Is (DECLAIM (inline cl:consp)) the accepted way to declare that CL:CONSP is to be inlined? 2015-06-12T14:13:32Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:13:37Z nyef: drmeister: Yes... and no. You need the DECLAIM around the definition for the source to be recorded, and thereafter it should be inlined, unless a further DECLAIM NOTINLINE is done (which does not erase the recorded source). A local DECLARE NOTINLINE or DECLARE INLINE can override the current declaimed inline behavior as well. 2015-06-12T14:14:19Z nyef: Also, you can't inline, even with declaim/declare inline, unless the source was compiled under a declaim inline or a LOCALLY DECLARE INLINE. 2015-06-12T14:14:31Z bishopj: nyef: Do you know of any bootstrap lisp implementations written in forth? 2015-06-12T14:15:00Z drmeister: nyef: Hmm, the ability to locally DECLARE INLINE would require me to store the AST of every function - does it not? 2015-06-12T14:15:37Z drmeister: nyef: Got it. 2015-06-12T14:15:43Z nyef: drmeister: No, it only works if the function was compiled with inlining declared/proclaimed. 2015-06-12T14:16:11Z nyef: bishopj: Not that were complete enough to use, but I never really took a survey of the field. 2015-06-12T14:16:14Z drmeister: Got it. So I have to globally DECLAIM a function inline so that later other functions can locally DECLARE inline them. 2015-06-12T14:16:47Z drmeister: And I globally DECLAIM a function inline before I provide the DEFUN for it so that it knows to record the information necessary to inline it. 2015-06-12T14:16:55Z nyef: drmeister: Right. But the DECLAIM also says "inline this", so you would DECLAIM NOTINLINE to override that WITHOUT losing the recorded definition. 2015-06-12T14:17:24Z nyef: For the most part, you probably just want to DECLAIM INLINE before defining the function, and it will tend to do what you want. 2015-06-12T14:17:45Z harish joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:17:53Z nyef: The complexity arises when you want a function to not be inlined under normal circumstances, but to allow it to be inlined under programmer control later on. 2015-06-12T14:18:44Z drmeister: Got it. It's deterministic and controlled by the programmer except the compiler may decide not to inline something even if the programmer asks for inlining and the compiler may or may not decide to inline a function if the programmer DECLAIM'd it inline globally. 2015-06-12T14:18:59Z bishopj: nyef: any implementations would help 2015-06-12T14:19:13Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-06-12T14:20:00Z nyef: bishopj: Sorry, it was a private attempt, and I'm not sure I could even find the drive image for it at this point... or if it's actually sitting on a physical drive somewhere and not in an image. 2015-06-12T14:20:19Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-06-12T14:20:23Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:21:38Z nyef: Also, it really didn't get very far. 2015-06-12T14:21:39Z mj-0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T14:21:52Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:22:10Z cluck: Bike: rms has plenty of experience with lisp, he helped make the hyperspec, was friends and colleague of the people that made lisp machines, made a scheme hw implementation and emacs. 2015-06-12T14:22:11Z Longlius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T14:23:05Z drmeister: When I compile cclasp (clasp+cleavir) I'm injecting inlining code right at the start of the bootstrapping code to set up inlining. So everything will be recompiled with open coded functions. 2015-06-12T14:23:59Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:24:32Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:24:47Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:25:08Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-06-12T14:25:22Z cluck: Bike: he even implemented common lisp on a lisp machine once, so if he's a bad source i don't know who's a good one (he doesn't like cl though even despite knowing the author of cltl) 2015-06-12T14:26:04Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:26:05Z Bike: that's sort of what i was referring to 2015-06-12T14:27:10Z nyef: Same setup as Paul Graham: Doesn't actually LIKE common lisp. 2015-06-12T14:28:00Z drmeister: These guys probably have a strong sense of what the "perfect" language should look like and the good is the enemy of the perfect. 2015-06-12T14:28:21Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:29:03Z jackdaniel: pure like snow (: 2015-06-12T14:29:12Z nyef: ... yellow snow, maybe. 2015-06-12T14:29:35Z dlowe: I imagine it's more that CL has a lot of duplicated functionality 2015-06-12T14:30:09Z drmeister: (This might get me some nasty posts but...) ****My feeling**** is that Scheme has largely been a failure as a scripting/high-level language because it is too stripped down and the one name space for functions and variables makes macros, the most important capability of lisp, more difficult to use. 2015-06-12T14:30:09Z dlowe: that kind of bugs me, too, but not enough to dislike it 2015-06-12T14:30:12Z pjb: Bike: so: CADR the last safe machine. 2015-06-12T14:30:46Z dlowe: drmeister: well, that's why most Schemers pledge allegiance to a particular implementation like Racket 2015-06-12T14:31:05Z pjb: Bike: you can see the NAND gates: http://questier.com/Photos/200907_USA/20090731-150406_USA_Massachusetts_MIT_Museum_CADR_LISP_Machine.jpg 2015-06-12T14:31:17Z drmeister: Common Lisp is darn near as close to the perfect language that is reasonably well specified we are going to get. Warts and all. 2015-06-12T14:31:27Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T14:31:36Z dlowe: well, that's my feeling too 2015-06-12T14:32:16Z jackdaniel: can it be a blub? 2015-06-12T14:32:36Z Xach: The people who get stuff with scheme often have the same mentality as the people who get stuff done with common lisp: whatever the flaws, the benefits are worth using it to the fullest and getting the most out of it. 2015-06-12T14:32:58Z Xach: The people who don't get stuff done like to argue and debate the merits. 2015-06-12T14:33:03Z drmeister: There may be a parallel universe where the perfect language "Common Lisp++" exists - it's not our universe but we are pretty close to it. 2015-06-12T14:33:12Z H4ns: Xach: that is true for pretty much any language. once you know it well, you're down the rabbit hole. 2015-06-12T14:33:23Z oGMo: of course, people feel that way about C++ too, so :P 2015-06-12T14:33:32Z Xach: H4ns: yes, but fortunately we who have gone down the rabbit hole of common lisp are the one true correct group 2015-06-12T14:33:37Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-06-12T14:33:51Z pjb: The NAND gate attack: when powered up, the nand gates send message to their connections to try to identify other nand gates and build a model of their network, then infer the meaning of their circuitry, and therefore the meaning of their processing. Then they can surreptitiously modify their behavior to introduce trojans in the software system or leak data to spying agencies wold wide. 2015-06-12T14:33:55Z drmeister: I don't think anyone feels that way about C++. Maybe C++35 2015-06-12T14:34:16Z pjb: Better check the atomic structure of your NAND gates before putting to much faith in them. 2015-06-12T14:35:24Z drmeister: And by C++45 the C++ standard committee will be sucked into the singularity formed by the gravitational collapse of the paper copy of the specification. 2015-06-12T14:35:50Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:36:07Z pjb: nyef: those guys new other lisps before CL. So CL messed with their preconceptions. 2015-06-12T14:37:10Z mathi_aihtam quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-06-12T14:38:32Z theos: drmeister i think CL has already become CL++ 2015-06-12T14:39:02Z jackdaniel: derp, so next iteration will bring DL ? 2015-06-12T14:40:48Z jackdaniel: #1=(CL CL++ DL D C++ C . #1#) 2015-06-12T14:40:51Z Rashad: Hello. Here: https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html he says: "When you start a Lisp system, it enters a read-eval-print loop. Most other languages have nothing comparable to `read', nothing comparable to `eval', and nothing comparable to `print'. What gaping deficiencies!" 2015-06-12T14:40:53Z Rashad: Is this true? 2015-06-12T14:41:10Z jackdaniel: Rashad: yes 2015-06-12T14:41:15Z smokeink_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T14:42:07Z nyef: Heh. The "rabbit hole" metaphor only applies to Scheme, surely? (-: 2015-06-12T14:42:10Z Bike: eval is more common, but in js and python they still take strings. 2015-06-12T14:42:32Z Xach punches nyef into orbit for that horrible joke 2015-06-12T14:42:51Z theos: what joke.. 2015-06-12T14:43:22Z cluck: bishopj: do you know about this already? https://www.worldcat.org/title/implementation-of-the-lispkit-lisp-in-forth/oclc/17288365 2015-06-12T14:43:45Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:44:02Z Xach: theos: it is about a steele rabbit 2015-06-12T14:44:36Z nyef: Lambda, the ultimate manned orbiter launch rocket! 2015-06-12T14:44:39Z Rashad: Is writing code into a javascript console the same thing as a REPL? 2015-06-12T14:45:09Z Xach: Rashad: in some ways yes, in some ways no. 2015-06-12T14:45:11Z theos: Xach oh. must be related to mr guy 2015-06-12T14:45:30Z antoszka: https://speakerdeck.com/nineties/creating-a-language-using-only-assembly-language 2015-06-12T14:45:32Z Rashad: OK. 2015-06-12T14:45:35Z antoszka: > write a lisp from scratch 2015-06-12T14:45:37Z antoszka: > break it 2015-06-12T14:45:40Z jackdaniel: Rashad: js console is closer to repl then recompiling c sources, yet it's not there 2015-06-12T14:45:54Z Rashad: Aha. 2015-06-12T14:46:04Z Rashad: Is Lisp compiled or interpreted? 2015-06-12T14:46:22Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T14:46:34Z jackdaniel: both, but you can safely assume, that it is compiled 2015-06-12T14:46:35Z Xach: Rashad: both. 2015-06-12T14:46:38Z pjb: Rashad: is English compiled or interpreted? 2015-06-12T14:46:53Z jackdaniel: pjb: interpreted unless you use inside jokes 2015-06-12T14:46:59Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:47:09Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:47:10Z Quiznos joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:47:12Z pjb: jackdaniel: that depends on the program and the processor! 2015-06-12T14:47:14Z Quiznos: morning folks. 2015-06-12T14:47:34Z jackdaniel: o/ Quiznos 2015-06-12T14:47:49Z Quiznos: would someone pst a url to lisp1.5 source? i'm hacking smallc. 2015-06-12T14:47:56Z Quiznos: pst/post 2015-06-12T14:48:20Z khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 2015-06-12T14:48:22Z Quiznos: html src 2015-06-12T14:48:27Z Quiznos: or text 2015-06-12T14:48:39Z bishopj: cluck: Have not seen that before and thank you 2015-06-12T14:48:41Z pjb: Quiznos: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp-1-5 2015-06-12T14:48:55Z Quiznos: mytv 2015-06-12T14:49:18Z H4ns: Quiznos: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lisp+1.5+source 2015-06-12T14:49:32Z cluck: bishopj: yw 2015-06-12T14:49:34Z Quiznos: ty 2015-06-12T14:49:48Z Quiznos: i sthat an L? 2015-06-12T14:50:10Z pjb: yes. 2015-06-12T14:50:12Z pjb: change your font. 2015-06-12T14:50:13Z Quiznos: k 2015-06-12T14:50:18Z Quiznos: i know 2015-06-12T14:50:55Z Quiznos: hmm empty page 2015-06-12T14:51:09Z przl joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:51:31Z Quiznos: why oam i going to doubleclick? 2015-06-12T14:52:09Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:52:38Z Quiznos: ok got it; tyvm 2015-06-12T14:52:42Z Quiznos left #lisp 2015-06-12T14:53:41Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:54:30Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:54:31Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:54:55Z Quiznos joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:55:02Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2015-06-12T14:55:24Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T14:55:27Z Quiznos: ok; i wasnt clear enuf; looking for the lisp-1.5 BOOK meta-source that became the souce code :) 2015-06-12T14:55:36Z Quiznos: the half page of HLde. 2015-06-12T14:55:41Z Quiznos: teh Mexprs 2015-06-12T14:55:50Z Quiznos: that JM wrote 2015-06-12T14:56:07Z Quiznos: HL code 2015-06-12T14:56:29Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-06-12T14:57:27Z isaac_rks quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-06-12T15:01:11Z xificurC quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-06-12T15:03:57Z cluck: Quiznos: http://www.michaelnielsen.org/ddi/lisp-as-the-maxwells-equations-of-software/ 2015-06-12T15:04:31Z cluck: Quiznos: (google is not a superpower) 2015-06-12T15:04:54Z Zhivago: Basic functional literacy is increasingly so, however. 2015-06-12T15:05:59Z Quiznos: cluck duckduckgo.com 2015-06-12T15:06:09Z Quiznos: ty 2015-06-12T15:06:21Z Jaskologist_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:07:00Z Quiznos: ty 2015-06-12T15:07:01Z Quiznos left #lisp 2015-06-12T15:07:01Z baotiao quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-06-12T15:07:06Z theos: np 2015-06-12T15:07:31Z theos: i was happy to find out that sbcl compiles every function i define :D 2015-06-12T15:08:57Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:09:00Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:09:38Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-06-12T15:09:38Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:09:52Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-06-12T15:09:53Z mathi_aihtam quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-06-12T15:13:12Z cluck: Quiznos: http://www.cs.uni.edu/~wallingf/blog-images/code/lisp1.5-page13.jpg (ddg is not a superpower either) 2015-06-12T15:15:09Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:15:50Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T15:18:37Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:20:12Z loz1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-06-12T15:22:15Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:24:09Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T15:25:46Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T15:26:11Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T15:26:16Z ronh_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:31:43Z hlavaty` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T15:31:50Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:32:00Z schjetne: bishopj: Late to the party as usual, but that sounds like a really cool project. I've actually wondered what the performance ceiling could be for a discrete logic CPU with all the modern techniques, like these really small SMDs. 2015-06-12T15:32:38Z schjetne: Will you do a writeup of the project? I'd love to see it. 2015-06-12T15:32:39Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:35:20Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:36:09Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:36:26Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:37:26Z tmtwd: Whats the difference between a dsl and just a scripting language like emacs lisp or the gimp scripter? 2015-06-12T15:37:55Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-06-12T15:38:41Z dlowe: tmtwd: the categorizations are extremely imprecise. 2015-06-12T15:38:48Z mathi_aihtam quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2015-06-12T15:38:59Z tmtwd: oh 2015-06-12T15:39:11Z schjetne: tmtwd: how do you define a scripting language? 2015-06-12T15:39:25Z tmtwd: forget I said scripting language 2015-06-12T15:39:30Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T15:39:42Z dlowe: a "script" often refers to a program which emulates the actions of a human operator, and a "scripting language" is one that is often used for writing "scripts" 2015-06-12T15:40:23Z tmtwd: I just meant one of those languages that comes built into an application like elisp 2015-06-12T15:40:39Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-06-12T15:40:39Z dlowe: a domain-specific language is simply a language in which the terms of the language map exactly onto the terms of the domain 2015-06-12T15:41:28Z tmtwd: so that includes elisp? 2015-06-12T15:41:39Z dlowe: I think "embedded language" is the usual term for what you're talking about 2015-06-12T15:41:46Z schjetne: tmtwd: Emacs Lisp comes mainly out of a performance trade-off to make it run on limited hardware. 2015-06-12T15:42:09Z schjetne: I believe Multics Emacs was written entirely in Maclisp (correct, beach?) 2015-06-12T15:42:12Z tmtwd: elisp is supposed to be fast? thats surprising 2015-06-12T15:43:12Z tmtwd: are there lisp dsl for writing to javascript? 2015-06-12T15:43:18Z tmtwd: similar to clojurescipt? 2015-06-12T15:43:26Z dlowe: parenscript 2015-06-12T15:43:36Z dlowe: not really a dsl, though 2015-06-12T15:43:40Z dlowe: what's the domain there? 2015-06-12T15:43:49Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:44:29Z tmtwd: ok, so transpilers like cljs and parenscript or coffescript are not dsls? 2015-06-12T15:44:43Z tmtwd: but code that generates html is a dsl? 2015-06-12T15:44:51Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T15:45:15Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-06-12T15:45:35Z solyd_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:45:43Z dlowe: You can probably call pretty much anything a dsl and get away withit 2015-06-12T15:46:08Z dlowe: C - a DSL, where the domain is the manipulation of bytes and pointers 2015-06-12T15:46:43Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T15:47:09Z tmtwd: haha 2015-06-12T15:47:36Z oGMo: that specifically is not untrue, though ;) 2015-06-12T15:48:18Z oGMo: of course if you called CL a DSL for manipulating lists, a lot of someones would likely complain 2015-06-12T15:49:14Z theos: every language is an extension of CL 2015-06-12T15:49:25Z theos hides 2015-06-12T15:52:08Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:53:25Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T15:53:47Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:53:55Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:59:39Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-06-12T15:59:52Z jasom: tmtwd: if you have any parenscript questions, feel free to ask me; I've been spending a lot of time with it recently. 2015-06-12T15:59:57Z `dwr joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:00:19Z jasom: (Note to self: you're spending too much time with something when the project owner gives you commit access to source control) 2015-06-12T16:00:21Z tmtwd: jasom, yeah it looks fun, its basically like clojurescript 2015-06-12T16:00:25Z tmtwd: ? 2015-06-12T16:00:27Z harish quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T16:01:09Z JJJJJJJJJJJJ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:01:19Z jasom: tmtwd: it's somewhat different from clojurescript; clojurescript is closer to clojure, parenscript isn't really designed to let you write common-lisp and have it run on javascript, as it pulls-in javascript's semantics 2015-06-12T16:01:22Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:01:39Z jasom: tmtwd: I was just givven commit access to the parenscript github the other day. 2015-06-12T16:02:20Z jasom: and since I tend to avoid responsibility like the plague, I can only infer that I'm spending too much time with it :) 2015-06-12T16:02:59Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:03:51Z tmtwd: I'll check it out when I get the chance 2015-06-12T16:04:27Z jasom: the nice thing about parenscript is that the macros are written in common-lisp 2015-06-12T16:04:37Z Jaskologist_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:05:02Z jasom: which makes it fairly easy to create a common subset of both parenscript and common-lisp 2015-06-12T16:05:05Z przl joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:05:45Z pjb: schjetne: emacs lisp is both a general programming language, and a domain specific language for the domain of text edition. In this case, you can easily distinguish both layers, the pure emacs lisp stuff, from the domain specific extensions. 2015-06-12T16:06:12Z prxq: jasom: how about debugging the result? 2015-06-12T16:06:37Z pjb: schjetne: in general, in lisp, DSL are designed that way, as extensions over the general lisp language, so that you may combine several different DSL in the same application, and benefit from the features of the general language inside the DSL. 2015-06-12T16:06:39Z candidtim quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:07:30Z pjb: schjetne: the alternative, having a specific DSL, proves always to be too limited: you don't have tools (IDE, debuggers, etc) to develop in the DSL, and those DSL often have arbitrary and silly restrictions which make them real PITA to work with. 2015-06-12T16:08:12Z pjb: schjetne: nonetheless, it is perfectly possible, even in lisp, to isolate the DSL from the lisp layers, and to provide the users with a purely domain specific language that has nothing to do with lisp. It would all depend on the domain. 2015-06-12T16:09:13Z pjb: schjetne: that said, remember that we are programmers, and our user domains are programming domains, so our DSL often are concerned with programming matters, instead of say, color mixing, legal document preparation, space ship navigation, or some other purely user domain. 2015-06-12T16:11:33Z pjb: schjetne: now, if you wanted to write a script that would navigate your space ship to mars, prepare the legal document for importation of Earth products down to Mars, and mix the right colors to print the required ten copies, you would rather be very happy if those DSL were thin extensions over Common Lisp and if you could use CL to write this script, rather than having separate exclusive DSLs that you couldn't combine! 2015-06-12T16:11:58Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:12:24Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:13:11Z pjb: But this is only because you are a programmer. A painter, a lawyer, or an astronaut could very well not see the point of having their domain specific languages be extensions of CL, and having to write sexps instead of arbitrary syntax and conventions used in their jargons. 2015-06-12T16:13:56Z pjb: This is also the reason why CL provides reader macros, so that you can provide a user specific layer with those arbitrary syntaxes. Lispers could still use sexps. 2015-06-12T16:14:14Z adlai joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:15:04Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:16:20Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:17:26Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:21:03Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:22:28Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:24:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:25:27Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:25:56Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:26:13Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:27:23Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:31:28Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:33:23Z jasom: prxq: parenscript is essentially an s-expression representation of javascript, so the mapping is quite close. It provides a few convenience macros (like let) but the implementations of those are fairly straghtforward 2015-06-12T16:33:44Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T16:34:02Z jasom: oh, and PSA: don't use multiple values in parenscript. They don't work right. I may spend some time fixing that in the future. 2015-06-12T16:34:46Z jasom: e.g. (defun foo () (values 1 2)) (defun bar () (foo)) (bar) => 1 2015-06-12T16:35:01Z shka joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:35:38Z Adlai joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:36:44Z przl joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:40:12Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:40:24Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:41:10Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:42:02Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:42:45Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:43:35Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:44:28Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:46:05Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:49:37Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:49:37Z Walex2 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-06-12T16:50:22Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:52:49Z aeth: pjb: yes but with format you can concatenate strings separated by ", " except for the last element. "~{~A~^, ~}~%". I think it might be one of the fastest ways to do that, idk 2015-06-12T16:53:48Z aeth: I very rarely find the use case "~{~A~}", and that's usually when I was mapping format on the strings or something so that they were already modified (i.e. I already used format) 2015-06-12T16:54:04Z aeth: Usually at the very least I want "~{~A~^ ~}" 2015-06-12T16:54:44Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-06-12T16:55:15Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T16:55:42Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T16:56:30Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-06-12T16:57:01Z tuborgman quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2015-06-12T16:58:07Z mfranzwa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T17:00:04Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:00:47Z pjb: aeth: on the other hand, the question is why do we ask or mention "the fastest way to do it"? 2015-06-12T17:01:05Z jasom: pjb: because it's a loop :P 2015-06-12T17:01:11Z pjb: do you really want the fastest way to build this concatenation with separators? 2015-06-12T17:01:35Z aeth: pjb: well yes I do want to know the fastest of 10 ways to do any given thing because I'm writing a game engine, not a web server or something 2015-06-12T17:01:54Z aeth: so I'm competing against C++ not Ruby and Python 2015-06-12T17:02:07Z pjb: aeth: then doing a version of concatenate-string that insert separators would be the fastest way. 2015-06-12T17:02:09Z aeth: You can be faster than Python just by... using Common Lisp :-p 2015-06-12T17:02:23Z antgreen quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2015-06-12T17:02:31Z _baremetal: agreed aeth. morning you all 2015-06-12T17:03:06Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T17:07:08Z jasom: pjb: only if you don't hit the argument limit; probably an output-string-stream is fastest if you have too many strings to use concatenate 2015-06-12T17:07:51Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:07:56Z dlowe: well, building your own string is likely to be fastest, at a steep complexity cost 2015-06-12T17:09:00Z jasom: hmm sbcl has a fairly large call-arguments-limit 2015-06-12T17:09:04Z jasom: 4611686018427387903 2015-06-12T17:10:00Z aeth: That gives me a good idea. I can just write one function that does everything, with that many arguments. (defun everything (a b c d e f g h i j k .... 2015-06-12T17:11:16Z aeth: Then you run the program with apply, most of the program can be constructing apply, and you can run the program multiple times with map nil 2015-06-12T17:11:19Z aeth: :-p 2015-06-12T17:12:36Z aeth: Someone needs to start an International Obfuscated CL Code Contest. Add in some macros on top of this to make it even less clear. 2015-06-12T17:12:43Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:12:57Z pjb: aeth: mapconcat in https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/cesarum/string.lisp#L151 is almost twice faster than equivalent format, on ccl. 2015-06-12T17:13:12Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T17:13:13Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:14:01Z pjb: jasom: it will probably break much sooner than this argument limit. The question is how will it break? Will it signal a nice condition, ir will it sigsegv? 2015-06-12T17:14:26Z jasom: so arguements go on the stack in sbcl? 2015-06-12T17:14:32Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:14:34Z jasom: s/so/do 2015-06-12T17:14:41Z pjb: aeth: it's too easy to write obfuscated CL, this might be the reason why it's never done. 2015-06-12T17:15:00Z Bike: applying + to a million arguments signals sb-kernel::control-stack-exhausted 2015-06-12T17:15:00Z pjb: jasom: in general, not necessarily with &rest and apply. 2015-06-12T17:15:20Z pjb: Bike: sounds good. 2015-06-12T17:16:28Z aeth: pjb: that just means you can raise the requirements for the winner 2015-06-12T17:16:40Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T17:16:43Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Obfuscated_C_Code_Contest#Examples 2015-06-12T17:16:48Z aeth: I wonder what you could do with reader macros 2015-06-12T17:17:15Z Bike: trying to make a list of a hundred million things gets into ldb though, blah 2015-06-12T17:17:19Z jasom: aeth: with reader macros you can implement C and enter one of the IOCC winners 2015-06-12T17:17:59Z Bike: and also ruins my netbook, damn 2015-06-12T17:18:44Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:23:00Z wat_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:26:52Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T17:27:28Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:28:16Z aeth: jasom: yes but a C winner wouldn't be a CL winner 2015-06-12T17:30:50Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-06-12T17:32:42Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:33:01Z Guest62932 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:33:15Z Guest62932 left #lisp 2015-06-12T17:33:50Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:34:13Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-06-12T17:35:42Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:40:15Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-06-12T17:41:45Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T17:45:32Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:46:15Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:46:37Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:46:45Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:48:52Z Kruppe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-06-12T17:49:23Z tuborgman joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:50:49Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T17:51:09Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T17:51:27Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2015-06-12T17:52:24Z Davidbrcz_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:52:49Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T17:54:40Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:56:07Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-06-12T17:57:26Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:04:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:04:53Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-06-12T18:04:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:05:09Z jaykru joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:05:20Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-06-12T18:12:09Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T18:16:15Z malice joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:16:17Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:19:05Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-06-12T18:19:28Z mfranzwa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T18:19:56Z phf: i'm working on transforming a 17gb text file. is it "better" to do read-char/write-char in loop, and hoist the logic on (case char (#\... (peek-char) ...)), or do read-line/write-line and then drive logic with (string-equal ... :start2 ...). i'm using sbcl. 2015-06-12T18:19:59Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-06-12T18:20:02Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:20:37Z Bike: i don't know what the logic is, but read-sequence/write-sequence and read-line/write-line are probably faster than chars in a loop. 2015-06-12T18:21:14Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:23:49Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:24:00Z Fade quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T18:25:02Z phf: that's my hunch too 2015-06-12T18:25:19Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:30:10Z jlongster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T18:31:21Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T18:31:50Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:33:33Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:33:44Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-06-12T18:33:44Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:35:35Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:35:46Z KarlDscc joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:35:47Z KarlDscc quit (Client Quit) 2015-06-12T18:36:16Z tamilProgrammer joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:36:54Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T18:41:03Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:43:49Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:43:54Z z0d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T18:43:54Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:43:54Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2015-06-12T18:43:54Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:44:43Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T18:45:18Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:45:38Z tamilProgrammer: any good tutorial for hunchensocket (https://github.com/capitaomorte/hunchensocket) 2015-06-12T18:46:29Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-06-12T18:47:27Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:47:54Z Bike: the one in the readme missing something? 2015-06-12T18:49:33Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T18:49:53Z tamilProgrammer: for me its hard to understand the abstractions such as resources and user. I need little bit more hand holding.. 2015-06-12T18:50:01Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:50:09Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-06-12T18:52:40Z tmtwd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T18:52:51Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:54:01Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T18:55:14Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T18:59:07Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T19:00:52Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T19:04:07Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-06-12T19:04:16Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:05:41Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:06:28Z KarlDscc joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:06:29Z KarlDscc quit (Client Quit) 2015-06-12T19:08:38Z shum joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:08:55Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T19:09:52Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi 2015-06-12T19:10:12Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: so finally I put up the server on the mips programmed in ecl 2015-06-12T19:10:42Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T19:11:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:13:15Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2015-06-12T19:13:15Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:17:56Z jself_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T19:18:29Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:18:31Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-06-12T19:19:24Z mearnsh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-06-12T19:21:59Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:22:06Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: congratz 2015-06-12T19:22:26Z bishopj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T19:23:17Z bishopj joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:25:35Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:27:03Z eliasbagley joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:27:16Z ggole quit 2015-06-12T19:28:05Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:31:52Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T19:33:27Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T19:37:07Z `dwr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T19:42:22Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:43:37Z Davidbrcz_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-06-12T19:44:06Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T19:50:25Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:51:24Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T19:51:37Z reb` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T19:52:39Z nikki93 quit (Client Quit) 2015-06-12T19:54:52Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-06-12T19:57:58Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: now I did the i2c board to get sensors data and then I will output them on the socket! 2015-06-12T19:58:17Z pjb: Posterdati: do you use UDP? 2015-06-12T20:00:21Z Posterdati: :connect :passive :address-family :internet :type :stream :ipv6 nil :external-format '(:utf-8 :eol-style :crlf 2015-06-12T20:00:30Z Posterdati: connection is made like this 2015-06-12T20:00:42Z pjb: Posterdati: :stream is TCP. 2015-06-12T20:00:43Z fourier: :type :stream is TCP 2015-06-12T20:00:43Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:01:35Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:01:44Z tmtwd: (defun say-hello () 2015-06-12T20:01:46Z tmtwd: (print "Please type your name: " 2015-06-12T20:01:48Z tmtwd: (let ((name (read))) 2015-06-12T20:01:50Z tmtwd: (print "Nice to meet you, ") 2015-06-12T20:01:52Z tmtwd: (print name)))) 2015-06-12T20:01:54Z pjb: Posterdati: It seems to me that UDP would be more indicated to forward i2c sensor data, since it would be more important to have the latest data than not to lose some data. 2015-06-12T20:02:00Z tmtwd: whats the paredit command to enter the missing paren at the end of print? 2015-06-12T20:02:05Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T20:02:06Z pjb: tmtwd: use http://paste.lisp.org/new to paste code. 2015-06-12T20:02:08Z tmtwd: "please type your name"? 2015-06-12T20:02:13Z solyd_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-06-12T20:02:17Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:02:19Z schjetne: tmtwd: http://paste.lisp.org/ 2015-06-12T20:02:24Z pjb: tmtwd: C-q ) 2015-06-12T20:02:29Z schjetne: Ah, pjb beat me to it 2015-06-12T20:02:37Z pjb: tmtwd: C-q is a general emacs command to insert any random character you want. 2015-06-12T20:02:41Z loke_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:03:02Z tmtwd: sweet thanks 2015-06-12T20:03:08Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T20:03:11Z Posterdati: pjb: data is lost because client is not supposed to always read them 2015-06-12T20:03:18Z schjetne: tmtwd: C-h f paredit-mode will tell you the bindings 2015-06-12T20:03:32Z schjetne: There is also an animated guide, I'll see if I can find it 2015-06-12T20:03:50Z loke_: Hello 2015-06-12T20:04:01Z schjetne: tmtwd: http://danmidwood.com/content/2014/11/21/animated-paredit.html 2015-06-12T20:04:02Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:04:39Z pjb: tmtwd: also, since it's balanced, you could use M-S then C-M-down then M-u 2015-06-12T20:04:40Z Posterdati: pjb: on the pc, the update data thread samples with 1 s period using sleep 1 in the loop 2015-06-12T20:05:03Z tmtwd: ok thanks, bookmarked 2015-06-12T20:05:10Z Posterdati: on the board sleep 1 is totally unreliable 2015-06-12T20:05:39Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-06-12T20:05:42Z pjb: M-S splits the list, C-M-down enters the following list, M-u splice the list. 2015-06-12T20:06:01Z pjb: Posterdati: yes, it would be better to use a periodic timer, since sleep may be short or long. 2015-06-12T20:06:11Z pjb: But sometimes you don't care for the frequency. 2015-06-12T20:06:16Z loke_: pjb: splice the list? What command do you have bound to M-u? 2015-06-12T20:06:20Z loke_: For me, it 2015-06-12T20:06:24Z loke_: For me, it's upcase-word 2015-06-12T20:06:25Z pjb: M-up I mean. 2015-06-12T20:06:28Z loke_: ah 2015-06-12T20:06:45Z Posterdati: pjb: a trivial-timers ? 2015-06-12T20:06:51Z pjb: For example, yes. 2015-06-12T20:06:56Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T20:07:01Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-06-12T20:07:07Z pjb: That should give a more precise frequency. 2015-06-12T20:07:28Z Posterdati: pjb: I will try 2015-06-12T20:07:31Z futpib quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:32Z MrWoohoo quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:32Z eazar001 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:32Z AntiSpamMeta quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:32Z gabot quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:32Z Xach quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:32Z setheus quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:32Z bipt quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:33Z gendl quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:33Z backupthrick_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:33Z cross quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:33Z vap1 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:33Z foom quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:33Z eMBee quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:33Z hyoyoung quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:34Z Intensity quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:34Z Xof quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:34Z mtd quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:34Z schjetne quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:34Z peccu quit (*.net *.split) 2015-06-12T20:07:37Z hyoyoung_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:07:45Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:07:45Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:07:46Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:07:47Z mtd joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:07:50Z peccu joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:07:54Z bipt joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:07:54Z pjb: Also, using UDP you could more easily go multicast or broadcast, which could be useful in your application. 2015-06-12T20:07:57Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:07:57Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T20:07:57Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:07:58Z loke_: pjb: I have never used M-up, as far as I can tell it's simply the same as M-s plus deleting stuff before cursor? 2015-06-12T20:08:00Z cross_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:08:11Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:08:15Z pjb: It also remove a level of list. 2015-06-12T20:08:21Z foom joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:08:25Z backupthrick_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:08:47Z pjb: It also remove what's from the beginning of the list to the point. 2015-06-12T20:08:59Z loke_: Right, remove a level of list... that's what M-s does, yes? 2015-06-12T20:09:01Z Rashad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T20:09:09Z loke_: So it's M-s + delete stuff before 2015-06-12T20:09:11Z pjb: M-s is nicer, since indeed I general I don't want to delete anything. 2015-06-12T20:09:17Z pjb: loke_: yes. 2015-06-12T20:09:28Z schjetne joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:09:49Z pjb: Then one has to compile that into the fingers… 2015-06-12T20:10:07Z gabot joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:10:22Z pjb: tmtwd: you should better use princ rather than print for this kind of things. Also, you may want to use *query-io* for interactive stuff, and use FINISH-OUTPUT before READ. 2015-06-12T20:10:24Z loke_: pjb: At least I know about it now. I'm sure it'll come in handy some day 2015-06-12T20:10:31Z Rashad joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:10:40Z Rashad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T20:10:41Z tmtwd: ok 2015-06-12T20:10:56Z loke_: pjb: I always feel like a true wizard whenever I use paredit-convolute-sexp for effect :-) 2015-06-12T20:11:02Z pjb: :-) 2015-06-12T20:11:23Z Rashad joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:11:27Z Rashad quit (Client Quit) 2015-06-12T20:12:35Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:12:38Z Intensity joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:16:42Z alesguzik joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:17:29Z eMBee joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:23:49Z nokw joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:26:38Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T20:28:10Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-06-12T20:28:24Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:30:30Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T20:31:00Z beach quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T20:31:38Z beach joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:33:40Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:34:24Z alesguzik quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-06-12T20:34:50Z jaykru quit (Quit: leaving desu) 2015-06-12T20:35:05Z schjetne: beach: in Sweden? 2015-06-12T20:35:07Z Davidbrcz_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:35:09Z tamilProgrammer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T20:35:40Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:36:08Z loke_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T20:37:48Z stevegt quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T20:40:47Z candidtim joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:43:07Z PuercoPop: 12:02 aeth: then doing a version of concatenate-string that insert separators would be the fastest way. 2015-06-12T20:43:39Z mingvs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T20:43:41Z JJJJJJJJJJJJ is now known as Jaskologist 2015-06-12T20:46:28Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:47:42Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T20:47:56Z pjb: PuercoPop: cf. https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/cesarum/string.lisp#L151 2015-06-12T20:48:11Z pjb: it's almost twice as fast as format in ccl. 2015-06-12T20:48:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:49:52Z candidtim quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T20:51:11Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:55:26Z _baremetal left #lisp 2015-06-12T20:55:33Z aeth: Quicklisp can be imported and used in Lisp code like everything else, right? I wonder how hard it would be to make a Lisp-based Linux distro, just write a package manager that (1) manages non-Lisp packages, (2) plugs into Quicklisp for Lisp packages, (3) can resolve dependences 2 has on 1, e.g. sdl2 for cl-sdl2 2015-06-12T20:55:45Z przl joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:55:57Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-06-12T20:57:32Z jackdaniel: Lisp-based packet manager is already build, but it's in guile scheme (it's called guix) 2015-06-12T20:57:39Z Shinmera: Unfortunately ASDF turns out to be less than great at building anything but Lisp sources. 2015-06-12T20:57:43Z jackdaniel: package° 2015-06-12T20:57:49Z PuercoPop: pjb: sorry, as of late my keyboard goes rogue episodically and stars to input things. I had check it out using ql and M-. pretty nifty. 2015-06-12T20:57:57Z dim: aeth: see https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb for another way to do what you're proposing 2015-06-12T20:58:19Z Shinmera: (and arguably ASDF is less than great for building lisp sources too, so) 2015-06-12T20:58:32Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-06-12T20:58:37Z mfranzwa quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-06-12T20:59:03Z XachX: I wish it was easy to automagically install foreign libraries. 2015-06-12T20:59:14Z dim: damn. 2015-06-12T20:59:15Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T20:59:38Z aeth: Shinmera: no, I mean there would be two components. One is Quicklisp that handles ASDF/Lisp, one is this hypothetical CL package manager for dependencies that are not-Lisp, and all Quicklisp would do is tell the latter when there's a foreign library it needs. 2015-06-12T20:59:47Z nokw left #lisp 2015-06-12T20:59:50Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-06-12T21:00:07Z francogrex: apt-get install is as close to magic as it can get 2015-06-12T21:00:40Z jackdaniel: (ensure-lib #:libgmp) 2015-06-12T21:00:40Z dim: aeth: again, debian does that pretty well, and ql-to-deb allows using XachX work and automatically make debian packages out for QL dist releases 2015-06-12T21:00:49Z Shinmera: XachX: dim: I kind of did that for qt-libs, although only very rudimentary, and even for that I further realised that ASDF is not a great base to work with. 2015-06-12T21:01:04Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-06-12T21:02:38Z larme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-06-12T21:02:54Z OxMLR joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:03:00Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:03:14Z Shinmera: dim: Speaking of qt-libs, could you clone https://github.com/Shinmera/qt-libs into local-projects and try to (ql:quickload :qt-libs) ? 2015-06-12T21:03:29Z Shinmera: dim: The building steps should work now, at least. 2015-06-12T21:03:39Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:04:06Z aeth: What I mean is something like this: you call a package manager, if the package is a lisp package it passes it to quicklisp, if the package isn't then it doesn't, and if the quicklisp package has dependencies it installs those dependencies before talking to quicklisp 2015-06-12T21:04:38Z Shinmera: aeth: would be better to do it the other way around: Have ASDF systems that delegate to this other package manager. 2015-06-12T21:04:39Z dim: Shinmera: it's building 2015-06-12T21:05:13Z aeth: Shinmera: yes but wouldn't that require updating every single Common Lisp package ever rather than just keeping a list of C/etc. dependencies? 2015-06-12T21:05:19Z dim: aeth: please, again, have a look at ql-to-deb which gives you what you're talking about in a slightly different way 2015-06-12T21:05:21Z Shinmera: aeth: what? 2015-06-12T21:05:29Z dim: aeth: it means I made the work you are talking about basically 2015-06-12T21:05:33Z aeth: Shinmera: if you have to define C dependencies in ASDF 2015-06-12T21:05:49Z jaykru joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:05:54Z Shinmera: I'm completely lost. 2015-06-12T21:05:59Z Ralt: Shinmera: nice blogpost 2015-06-12T21:06:00Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T21:06:20Z aeth: nevermind, I guess I didn't understand your point 2015-06-12T21:06:29Z Shinmera: Isn't the point of this charade to have a system that automatically installs required foreign libraries for CL projects? 2015-06-12T21:06:51Z Shinmera: Or do you "just" want to have an OS package manager in lisp for the hell of it 2015-06-12T21:07:09Z Shinmera: Ralt: Thanks. 2015-06-12T21:07:30Z dim: Shinmera: it's burning CPUs now 2015-06-12T21:07:47Z aeth: Shinmera: well, no, it wouldn't be for the hell of it, it would be so there can be a Linux distro whose utilities are in Common Lisp instead of e.g. Python/Perl/etc. 2015-06-12T21:07:48Z Shinmera: dim: Yeah, on the other hand that means it shouldn't take so long to build :) 2015-06-12T21:07:55Z dim: well yeah I guess ;-) 2015-06-12T21:08:06Z larme joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:08:15Z dim: aeth: just do it 2015-06-12T21:08:54Z dim: there was Pardus some time ago where they redid the whole basics OS integration in python (init system, packaging, user management, etc) 2015-06-12T21:09:02Z dim: nowadays there's systemd tho 2015-06-12T21:09:45Z dim: aeth: hack ECL or drmeister's clasp into systemd, and include a #!cl thing that communicates with the OS provided lisp services? 2015-06-12T21:10:01Z aeth: The ideal end goal would be for everything except the kernel in Lisp, with the C/etc. packages for compatability and choice. Then if someone were to choose to write a kernel in Common Lisp and port gcc, etc., to that kernel, you get a software lispm 2015-06-12T21:10:24Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-06-12T21:10:26Z aeth: except if you don't want you'd be able to use KDE or GNOME because it'd be in the package manager 2015-06-12T21:10:30Z dim: I would target systemd nowadays, rather than the kernel 2015-06-12T21:10:41Z aeth: ok, then, every level above systemd? 2015-06-12T21:10:42Z dim: unless you want to support FreeBSD and Illumos etc 2015-06-12T21:10:57Z dim: aeth: be practical and just provide another option 2015-06-12T21:11:04Z dim: rewriting the world will take some time 2015-06-12T21:11:13Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-06-12T21:11:49Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:11:49Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:12:02Z aeth: Unfortunately, I doubt you'd ever be able to have a practical full lispm in the software because of drivers. Linux has drivers. 2015-06-12T21:12:23Z aeth: (It would also probably be much slower because it would lack decades of optimization and lots of developer attention.) 2015-06-12T21:12:28Z dim: ok, then don't do it? 2015-06-12T21:12:32Z Ralt: well, if you're a level above systemd, you don't care about drivers 2015-06-12T21:12:38Z GuilOooo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T21:12:48Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:12:48Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T21:12:55Z aeth: yes, I'm just saying that if you build for that then you're technically not a lispm, you're just basically Android but with Lisp instead of Java. 2015-06-12T21:13:06Z Ralt: aeth: perf wouldn't be an issue, computers are so fast nowadays! /s 2015-06-12T21:15:22Z Shinmera: dim: Did it finish yet? 2015-06-12T21:15:43Z dim: ah yeah I can't ear the CPU burning, must be done 2015-06-12T21:15:47Z dim: yeah it is, success 2015-06-12T21:15:53Z Shinmera: Ok, that's the first step done. 2015-06-12T21:16:03Z dim: is there an easy test I can do to see a clickable window now? ;-) 2015-06-12T21:16:15Z dim: also, will I have to redo that step at next QL update? 2015-06-12T21:16:21Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:16:24Z Shinmera: Now: Could you try (trace load-foreign-library) followed by (qt:make-qapplication) ? 2015-06-12T21:16:30Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:16:42Z Shinmera: err (trace cffi:load-foreign-library) 2015-06-12T21:16:47Z dim: WARNING: COMMON-LISP-USER::LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY is undefined, not tracing. 2015-06-12T21:16:49Z dim: yeah ;-) 2015-06-12T21:17:07Z Shinmera: It'll error with 99% probability on make-qapplication 2015-06-12T21:17:07Z dim: Unable to load foreign library (LIBCOMMONQT). Error opening shared object "/Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/qt-libs-20150608-git/standalone/libcommonqt.dylib": dlopen(/Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/qt-libs-20150608-git/standalone/libcommonqt.dylib, 10): Library not loaded: libsmokeqtcore.3.dylib Referenced from: 2015-06-12T21:17:07Z dim: /Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/qt-libs-20150608-git/standalone/libcommonqt.dylib Reason: image not found. 2015-06-12T21:17:17Z dim: I'd say 100% 2015-06-12T21:17:35Z Shinmera: Right, can you paste the full error & backtrace as well as the repl output for me? 2015-06-12T21:17:58Z dim: yeah, well, I quit the debugger already, but ok 2015-06-12T21:18:21Z Shinmera: Ah, well you can reproduce it easily enough 2015-06-12T21:18:45Z Shinmera: And yes, it'll rebuild the libraries on every QL update, since ASDF caches aren't that smart, and I don't want to try to be smarter than them. 2015-06-12T21:18:58Z dim: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149695 2015-06-12T21:19:10Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:19:12Z dim: included both calls because the output was different the second time 2015-06-12T21:19:29Z dim: the backtrace parts are from the second time around 2015-06-12T21:20:16Z Shinmera: Weird, why is it trying to open smokeqtcore. 2015-06-12T21:21:27Z Shinmera: Looks like the linking behaviour is different on OS X... curious. 2015-06-12T21:21:37Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:22:32Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:23:10Z Jaskologist quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T21:24:13Z Shinmera: dim: Ok, if you could: pull the project, restart your image, reload qt-libs, and try (qt:make-qapplication) again. 2015-06-12T21:24:22Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-06-12T21:25:04Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:26:12Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-06-12T21:26:33Z dim: same 2015-06-12T21:27:23Z Shinmera: And if you trace it, does it try to load libsmokeqtcore before libcommonqt? 2015-06-12T21:27:25Z dim: and now I'm zoning out for the day, have fun 2015-06-12T21:27:33Z Shinmera: Alright. Thanks, sorry to bother you. 2015-06-12T21:27:50Z dim: CL-USER> (qt:make-qapplication) 2015-06-12T21:27:50Z dim: 0: (CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY QT-LIBS::LIBSMOKEBASE) 2015-06-12T21:28:01Z dim: that's the first one loaded here 2015-06-12T21:28:11Z dim: it then only fails on 0: (CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY QT-LIBS::LIBSMOKEQTCORE) 2015-06-12T21:28:35Z Shinmera: Oh, but then the error must be different, no? 2015-06-12T21:29:08Z dim: Shinmera: no pb, I would never have had the courage to try that on my own and yet I want to explore GUI programming with CL and my understanding is that commonqt is the best option around... 2015-06-12T21:29:18Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T21:29:18Z dim: Unable to load foreign library (LIBSMOKEQTCORE). Error opening shared object "/Users/dim/quicklisp/local-projects/qt-libs/standalone/libsmokeqtcore.dylib": dlopen(/Users/dim/quicklisp/local-projects/qt-libs/standalone/libsmokeqtcore.dylib, 10): Library not loaded: libsmokebase.3.dylib Referenced from: /Users/dim/quicklisp/local-projects/qt-libs/standalone/libsmokeqtcore.dylib Reason: image not found. 2015-06-12T21:29:29Z dim: I said same a little too fast maybe 2015-06-12T21:29:40Z dim: sorry about that 2015-06-12T21:29:49Z Shinmera: Argh, why is it trying to load it again. On Linux it's smart enough to realise that a lib has already been loaded. 2015-06-12T21:30:04Z Shinmera: Anyway, get your rest. I'll try to figure out a way to fix this. 2015-06-12T21:30:17Z dim: CFFI is hell, that's my executive summary 2015-06-12T21:30:36Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-06-12T21:31:07Z dim: it appears that like ASDF or PostgreSQL's vacuum, its both the worst thing possible and the best solution around anyone came up with, or something like that 2015-06-12T21:31:22Z dim: (btw I would add that you can think of VACUUM as OPTIMISE, really) 2015-06-12T21:31:28Z Shinmera: I'm pretty sure one could come up with a better solution than ASDF. 2015-06-12T21:31:30Z dim: (or OPTIMIZE if that's the way you spell it) 2015-06-12T21:31:39Z dim: Shinmera: "could" being the operative word, right? 2015-06-12T21:31:53Z Shinmera: Well, I'm going to try at some point too. 2015-06-12T21:32:11Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:32:15Z dim: well you like solving hard portability problems 2015-06-12T21:32:41Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-06-12T21:32:44Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-06-12T21:32:48Z dim: make, cmake, qmake, automake and all serve one purpose to me: I don't want to deal with any of that, thanks. 2015-06-12T21:33:05Z Shinmera: Eh, it's more that I just don't like to hate things. 2015-06-12T21:33:09Z fe[nl]ix: we have that here, a functional build language with explicit "gates" for arbitrary behaviour 2015-06-12T21:33:15Z Shinmera: I hate ASDF, I'd rather not spend my time hating a thing. 2015-06-12T21:33:29Z fe[nl]ix: dim: on OSX dlclose() doesn't work 2015-06-12T21:33:41Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: wait what 2015-06-12T21:33:44Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-06-12T21:33:51Z dim: fe[nl]ix: I think you want to say that to Shinmera, I'm only testing for him here 2015-06-12T21:33:59Z dim: and I'm out for my sleep share anyway 2015-06-12T21:34:02Z dim: gn! 2015-06-12T21:34:03Z fe[nl]ix: so you can't work iteratively like on Linux, unloading a .dylib then reloading it 2015-06-12T21:34:18Z Shinmera: /o\ 2015-06-12T21:35:36Z contrapunctus: Is anyone using/hacking on Hemlock? 2015-06-12T21:36:07Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: until 10.5 dlclose() was just unimplemented, since that it kindof works sometimes 2015-06-12T21:36:14Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: This seems to claim that 10.5+ can unload dylibs. https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man3/dlclose.3.html 2015-06-12T21:36:32Z fe[nl]ix: except if "3) the dynamic library is in 2015-06-12T21:36:33Z fe[nl]ix: dyld's shared cache 2015-06-12T21:36:35Z fe[nl]ix: " 2015-06-12T21:36:51Z Shinmera: Yeah, I don't know what the implications of that are 2015-06-12T21:37:13Z jasom: Shinmera: FWIF I think ccl will unload foreign libraries when you save an image on OS X 2015-06-12T21:37:19Z jasom: s/FWIF/FWIW 2015-06-12T21:37:41Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T21:37:43Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: gbyers knows better, you can ask him 2015-06-12T21:38:03Z Shinmera: jasom: Which is not enough for me since I need to handle relocation of the files on image resume. 2015-06-12T21:38:54Z jasom: Shinmera: I'm missing something then; when do you need to unload the libraries? 2015-06-12T21:39:07Z Shinmera: Gah, I really need to get my hands on a Mac system so I can work on this properly. 2015-06-12T21:39:51Z jasom: Shinmera: I could set you up with a shell account on mine, maybe 2015-06-12T21:39:52Z Shinmera: jasom: What I can """portably""" do is close the libraries before image dump, remember what they were, fix CFFI's load paths upon resume, and load them again. 2015-06-12T21:40:13Z Shinmera: But if that doesn't work on OS X I'll have to find some other way. 2015-06-12T21:40:32Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-06-12T21:41:10Z Shinmera: jasom: Thanks, but I'd rather have my own machine that I can destroy to my heart's content. 2015-06-12T21:42:12Z jasom: Shinmera: you can usually get a used previous-generation mac mini for around $300 2015-06-12T21:42:20Z jasom: older generations can be even cheaper 2015-06-12T21:42:31Z Shinmera: I'd need something that can run the most recent OS X if possible. 2015-06-12T21:42:42Z Shinmera: I'd rather not have to take version differences into account as well, etc etc. 2015-06-12T21:42:47Z jasom: Anything from last 5 years or so should be able to do that 2015-06-12T21:42:51Z Shinmera: Ok. 2015-06-12T21:43:07Z jasom hasn't upgraded because of too many issues my friend had with yosemite 2015-06-12T21:43:34Z Shinmera: I'll have a look for used devices then. But even then, 300$ isn't something I want to shill out willy nilly. 2015-06-12T21:43:41Z jasom: of course 2015-06-12T21:43:45Z Davidbrcz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-06-12T21:44:13Z Shinmera: For that money I could stuff my workstation to the max with fast RAM :) 2015-06-12T21:44:22Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T21:44:23Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-06-12T21:44:35Z jasom: my workstation is already maxed out at 16GB :( 2015-06-12T21:44:47Z jasom needs a new motherboard 2015-06-12T21:45:01Z Shinmera: My max is 48, and I currently only have 12 in it. 2015-06-12T21:45:13Z jasom: I could get 32GB if I dropped ECC 2015-06-12T21:45:47Z jasom: but it has only 4 slots and no 8GB ECC DIMMs are on its list of supported modules 2015-06-12T21:47:42Z Ralt: Shinmera: using VMs is not an option? 2015-06-12T21:47:52Z Shinmera: Ralt: no. 2015-06-12T21:48:07Z Shinmera: Apple actively works to make VMs on anything but OS X itself impossible. 2015-06-12T21:48:18Z mingvs joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:48:35Z jasom: http://www.macbreaker.com/2013/01/iatkos-ml2-mountain-lion-virtualbox.html 2015-06-12T21:48:39Z Shinmera: I tried to get the hacked ones working as well, without success. They either didn't install right, or were so slow as to be unusable 2015-06-12T21:48:55Z Ralt: even yosemite zone? 2015-06-12T21:48:58Z Shinmera: Yes. 2015-06-12T21:49:03Z Ralt: damn. 2015-06-12T21:49:31Z aggrolite joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:50:48Z jasom: damn; virtualbox is supposed to be easier than getting it to work on real (non-mac) hardware 2015-06-12T21:51:27Z jasom: I have mac laptops for the hardware, not the software, anyway, so I've never tried setting up a hackintosh 2015-06-12T21:52:08Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: or get an account on hostmyapple.com 2015-06-12T21:52:18Z Shinmera: My brother has a macbook that initially belonged to me ~4 years ago. Probably not new enough to run the newest OS X version well, but I might pressure him into giving it back to me. 2015-06-12T21:52:28Z Shinmera: (it's older than four years) 2015-06-12T21:52:56Z fe[nl]ix: they run a farm of mac mini machines 2015-06-12T21:53:04Z fe[nl]ix: you can rent a whole machine for yourself 2015-06-12T21:54:21Z Shinmera: I'm not willing to pay $25 a month for a remote thing. 2015-06-12T21:54:42Z Shinmera: I already spend more than I want to be spending on server fees. 2015-06-12T21:54:50Z jasom: Shinmera: My macbook pro is 4 years old, and can run the newset (it keeps asking me to upgrade anyway) 2015-06-12T21:55:05Z Shinmera: jasom: Yeah, but this machine is ... 6 or 7 years old. 2015-06-12T21:55:26Z Shinmera: Six I think, actually. 2015-06-12T21:57:14Z Ralt: Shinmera: is using travis osx a possibility? 2015-06-12T21:57:22Z Shinmera: Ralt: they don't accept requests anymore. 2015-06-12T21:57:33Z Ralt: duh 2015-06-12T21:57:51Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-06-12T21:58:03Z Ralt: seriously. 2015-06-12T21:58:20Z rhllor quit (Quit: rhllor) 2015-06-12T21:59:48Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:00:12Z Shinmera: Anyway, about time for me to head to bed as well. Good night, everyone. 2015-06-12T22:00:14Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-06-12T22:02:14Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:05:47Z Xof joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:07:27Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T22:13:02Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:15:20Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T22:16:11Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:16:37Z mfranzwa left #lisp 2015-06-12T22:17:17Z contrapunctus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-06-12T22:18:00Z Baggers: Any palo alto/SF lispers around here? I'm heading out there for a few weeks of next month, would be great to meet up with folks there. 2015-06-12T22:19:58Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:20:02Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:20:42Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:21:44Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T22:25:13Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:25:54Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:26:32Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:27:25Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-06-12T22:28:18Z shum quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T22:29:03Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T22:31:32Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T22:31:56Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:32:23Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:33:40Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T22:36:21Z kodnin joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:36:33Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T22:36:55Z stevegt joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:39:39Z kodnin: Good evening! 2015-06-12T22:41:56Z lispyone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T22:41:59Z drmeister: Hello kodnin 2015-06-12T22:42:01Z kodnin quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-06-12T22:42:33Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:43:00Z rtoym_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:43:00Z Guest31042 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T22:43:11Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:43:19Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:43:44Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T22:44:09Z Guest58709 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:44:13Z rtoym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-06-12T22:44:25Z rtoym_ is now known as rtoym 2015-06-12T22:44:28Z loz1 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:44:36Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-06-12T22:46:16Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:46:17Z OxMLR: Which Lisp would it be most beneficial to learn in terms of longetivity? Is Common Lisp dying, or would it be beneficial to learn it? 2015-06-12T22:46:30Z joshe joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:46:59Z Bike: this is a common lisp channel. so, common lisp is great. 2015-06-12T22:48:06Z linux_dream quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T22:48:36Z Zhivago: Everything is dying. It's just a question of the rate of death. 2015-06-12T22:48:58Z Zhivago: However, most knowledge of a given lisp is transferrable to another. 2015-06-12T22:49:28Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-06-12T22:51:09Z spyrosoft: If anything, Common Lisp has gained momentum since Zach Beane put together quicklisp. 2015-06-12T22:51:13Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T22:52:30Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:52:57Z jasom: OxMLR: it's pretty clear that Common Lisp and Scheme will be around a while; The jury is still out on Clojure, but it's done better, so far, than any new language in the lisp family since scheme 2015-06-12T22:53:41Z foom: Yeah, I'd say common lisp is less dead now than it did a few years ago. 2015-06-12T22:53:44Z Jubb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T22:53:51Z rtoym_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:53:53Z foom: ...not that that makes it terribly lively, but it's probably not going anywhere. 2015-06-12T22:54:18Z foom: er, meant to say "seems less dead" 2015-06-12T22:54:25Z jasom: APL isn't going anywhere soon, and it's *way* more dead than Common Lisp 2015-06-12T22:54:28Z rtoym quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T22:54:31Z rtoym_ is now known as rtoym 2015-06-12T22:55:06Z Guest58709 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T22:55:21Z OxMLR: That's good to hear. I've learned some basic Racket and was just about to make the plunge into Lisp when someone told me not to waste my time on a 50 year old language. 2015-06-12T22:55:24Z spintronic left #lisp 2015-06-12T22:55:34Z OxMLR: I guess I'll go ahead and do it anyway :-) 2015-06-12T22:56:26Z Baggers: yeah, go for it! 2015-06-12T22:56:37Z jasom: I *kind of* got the mentality that could make that argument when C and C++ were the new hotness, but does anyone seriously think that old languages are bad now that they are nearly 40 and 30 years old, now? 2015-06-12T22:56:40Z smithzv_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:57:09Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:57:09Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T22:57:34Z pnathan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-06-12T22:57:46Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-06-12T22:57:50Z jasom: heck, Python's sneaking up on its silver anniversary 2015-06-12T22:58:07Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:58:41Z jackdaniel: if we consider lisp just as a family of languages and judge CL to be 50 years old, then we should put C in the same bag as fortran as being in the other family 2015-06-12T22:58:45Z grublet joined #lisp 2015-06-12T22:59:10Z jackdaniel: C/C++/Java etc, so we may consider them old as well 2015-06-12T22:59:47Z jasom: jackdaniel: I feel like languages weren't recognizable as C-like until Algol-ish 2015-06-12T23:00:14Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-06-12T23:00:41Z jackdaniel: it doesn't change a point I made I believe 2015-06-12T23:00:53Z jasom: nope, it just would make C not-older than lisp rather than older than lisp 2015-06-12T23:01:20Z jasom: ALGOL and LISP both first appeared in '58 I think 2015-06-12T23:02:12Z jackdaniel: my point is that C# is as old as algol if we can say, that CL is 50 years old 2015-06-12T23:02:47Z jasom: jackdaniel: I disagree, since there is a continuous lineage of Lisp, similar to fortran 2015-06-12T23:03:26Z jasom: even though e.g. Fortran 2008 looks nothing like FORTRAN and CL looks nothing like LISP 2015-06-12T23:04:06Z jasom: scheme, however is Newer than C and Clojure is newer than Scala 2015-06-12T23:04:38Z jasom: and the latest CL standard was created after the first release of Ruby. 2015-06-12T23:05:16Z jackdaniel: so clojure isn't lisp? I'm not sure if I actually get you 2015-06-12T23:05:16Z grublet: jasom: i'm still kinda confused on the difference between scheme and lisp 2015-06-12T23:05:24Z JuanDaugherty: wow many channels talking about the IAL 2015-06-12T23:05:32Z JuanDaugherty: well 2 at least 2015-06-12T23:05:44Z jackdaniel: JuanDaugherty: IAL? 2015-06-12T23:05:54Z JuanDaugherty: algol 2015-06-12T23:05:55Z jasom: jackdaniel: I agree clojure isn't lisp and scheme isn't lisp 2015-06-12T23:06:05Z jasom: jackdaniel: they both are in the lisp family though 2015-06-12T23:06:09Z eliasbagley quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-06-12T23:06:31Z jasom: grublet: there are a lot of differences, despite superficial syntax similarities 2015-06-12T23:06:40Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T23:06:54Z jasom: grublet: they are slightly more alike than C++ and Java, but not much. 2015-06-12T23:07:29Z jackdaniel: so how CL is Lisp and Scheme isn't? 2015-06-12T23:07:34Z elimik31 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:08:07Z spyrosoft quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T23:08:14Z jackdaniel: in my understanding these are both dialects of Lisp language family 2015-06-12T23:08:19Z jackdaniel: nothing more/less 2015-06-12T23:09:01Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-06-12T23:09:06Z jasom is looking for it, but Moon had a good poste on c.l.l that I agree with 2015-06-12T23:09:14Z Baggers: grublet: the confusion generally comes from the phrase 'is as lisp'. When lispers talk about lisp they generally mean common lisp. A lisp is a language in the family of lisps :) one that has all the 'core' design decisions, and generally means it clearly descends from the original LISP language is some way 2015-06-12T23:09:36Z Baggers: sorry my wording there wasnt great 2015-06-12T23:09:42Z grublet: Baggers: no i got it 2015-06-12T23:09:43Z grublet: thanks 2015-06-12T23:10:15Z grublet: I was watcihng the 1986 SICP lectures and I believe they use scheme, since I tried installing clisp but it didn't have the same syntax 2015-06-12T23:10:23Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:10:25Z grublet: ended up building mit-scheme to folow along 2015-06-12T23:10:29Z jasom: grublet: yes, SICP uses scheme 2015-06-12T23:11:46Z grublet: jasom: i'm liking scheme because I find prefix notation makes more sense to me 2015-06-12T23:11:51Z grublet: and i'm a nut for parentheses 2015-06-12T23:12:10Z Baggers: hehe well your in good company then :D 2015-06-12T23:13:06Z kephra: jackdaniel, C would belong in the curly braces algol bag - but they crippled the nested algol/pascal stack, so C has only local and global variables 2015-06-12T23:13:13Z grublet: Baggers: before i ever tried scheme, i had shown someone an avisytnh script i made and they told me i'd be perfect for lisp 2015-06-12T23:13:35Z wat_ quit (Quit: a) 2015-06-12T23:13:45Z grublet: http://stirkbin.com/b9499 i have to say, i agree with them 2015-06-12T23:14:01Z grublet: i don't trust order of operations 2015-06-12T23:15:29Z wat_ joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:15:39Z Baggers: grublet: haha true, as a kid in maths I never saw the point of memorizing the precedence of + * etc 2015-06-12T23:16:38Z grublet: Baggers: I never understood fractions in school because they wouldn't explain to me what would happen if you made the pie slices inequal 2015-06-12T23:16:42Z jackdaniel: goodnight everybody \o 2015-06-12T23:16:54Z Baggers: jackdaniel: goodnight 2015-06-12T23:17:14Z jasom: jackdaniel: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/Bj8Hx6mZEYI/6AWmNEwQR5YJ 2015-06-12T23:21:36Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T23:22:29Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-06-12T23:22:44Z pillton: jasom: Nice article. Kent Pitman strikes me as a man with infinite patience. 2015-06-12T23:23:14Z jasom: pillton: indeed, particularly if you read any of his articles about the standardization process 2015-06-12T23:23:19Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-06-12T23:23:49Z jackdaniel: this rationale doesn't convince me 2015-06-12T23:23:57Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:23:59Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:24:08Z jackdaniel: but I understand other point of view ;) gn once again :) 2015-06-12T23:25:15Z jasom: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/Bj8Hx6mZEYI/PE_MAJaUPC0J Is another good point by Pitman 2015-06-12T23:25:20Z Baggers: jasom: I read 'Common Lisp: The Untold Story', has he written more on the standardization process? That would be cool 2015-06-12T23:25:50Z jasom: Baggers: I don't remember the names of any of them, I've just seen bits and pieces in his writings 2015-06-12T23:26:05Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-06-12T23:26:39Z Baggers: jasom: cool. Just looking through his site now and it's a treasure trove.. I have no idea when I'll find the time to read all this but I want to 2015-06-12T23:31:06Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:32:02Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-06-12T23:32:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-06-12T23:34:57Z pillton needs to stop using WARN to write his todo list. 2015-06-12T23:35:46Z Baggers: time for some sleep, seeya all 2015-06-12T23:35:55Z Baggers left #lisp 2015-06-12T23:37:57Z pillton: jasom: I wonder if someone is writing up some of the history of common lisp. 2015-06-12T23:38:27Z wat_ quit (Quit: a) 2015-06-12T23:40:44Z egrep quit (Quit: Error -38: Black hole has swalled this client.) 2015-06-12T23:41:17Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-06-12T23:44:09Z `dwr joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:44:51Z jaykru quit (Quit: leaving desu) 2015-06-12T23:45:28Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:46:31Z kephra: pillton, short history: first there was lisp, and everybody had her own lisp - everything was fine till AI winter - next spring the surviving lispers deceided to agree on some common lisp ... more or less 2015-06-12T23:46:59Z kephra: CL was a nice idea - but a far vision till Paul f. Dietz wrote the CL regression test 2015-06-12T23:47:09Z kephra: since then CL is worth the paper its printed on 2015-06-12T23:47:31Z kephra: just my (twisted and biased) $0.02 2015-06-12T23:47:46Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:49:31Z pillton: kephra: If my memory serves me right, I think DARPA did some arm twisting too. 2015-06-12T23:49:55Z `dwr: but unfortunately they do memory twisting too 2015-06-12T23:50:01Z `dwr: ;p 2015-06-12T23:50:03Z pillton: haha 2015-06-12T23:50:37Z Kooda quit (Quit: Squee!) 2015-06-12T23:51:52Z Kooda joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:52:12Z schjetne: pillton: Richard Gabriel and Guy Steele did: http://dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf 2015-06-12T23:52:36Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-06-12T23:53:11Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:53:24Z pillton: Oh no! They said "pure". 2015-06-12T23:53:34Z pillton hits his head on the table. 2015-06-12T23:53:44Z OxMLR left #lisp 2015-06-12T23:53:56Z egrep joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:54:07Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-06-12T23:54:22Z pillton: schjetne: Thanks for the link. 2015-06-12T23:55:01Z jaykru joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:55:04Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:55:11Z loz1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-06-12T23:55:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:56:35Z OxMLR23 joined #lisp 2015-06-12T23:57:21Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-06-12T23:59:42Z spyrosoft joined #lisp