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2015-05-10T00:32:36Z Agileous: hahddy
2015-05-10T00:33:08Z Agileous: How come Lisp fell into disuse?
2015-05-10T00:33:59Z Agileous: comparatively ... to "C" and its ilk
2015-05-10T00:34:37Z scoofy: there was once "AI winter"
2015-05-10T00:34:46Z scoofy: a contributing factor
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2015-05-10T00:35:22Z scoofy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter
2015-05-10T00:36:52Z scoofy: with the collaps of the LISP machine market
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2015-05-10T00:38:46Z scoofy: and C-based systems were faster, so many companies abandoned LISP or went bankrupt
2015-05-10T00:42:39Z Agileous: The more i read descriptions of Lisp, the more appealing it becomes.  Whereas C's strength seems to be for programming hardware (kernels, device modules, etc), it seems to me that Lisp is strong for making software systems usable . . . but, correct me in my wrongness, please.
2015-05-10T00:43:20Z Agileous: scoofy: thanks for link
2015-05-10T00:52:16Z akkad hunts for log parsing packages
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2015-05-10T00:55:50Z scoofy: Agileous: C is more low-level. LISP supports very high-level / abstract / symbolic processing.
2015-05-10T01:00:10Z jdm_: I'm looking at the cl-csv source and see a couple function names that begin with % (e.g. %char-in, %in-stream).  Is that a common convention?  Does it indicate something of interest?
2015-05-10T01:00:33Z Agileous: scoofy: ah, yes.  A crucial difference.
2015-05-10T01:01:46Z pjb: Agileous: when the AI winter came over, there were perhaps 500 lispers world wide.  Nowadays, there are much more than 1500 lispers worldwide (who use it everyday).  How can you ask about a "falling into disuse"?
2015-05-10T01:02:11Z scoofy: i think he said, "comparatively"
2015-05-10T01:02:23Z pjb: Oh, right, after the fact.
2015-05-10T01:02:35Z scoofy: look at how many c/c++/java/.net/whatever programmers are there currently...
2015-05-10T01:02:53Z pjb: scoofy: the point is that in #lisp we only look at Common Lisp :-)
2015-05-10T01:03:21Z scoofy: so you never ever mention C.
2015-05-10T01:03:35Z pjb: Unless it's in the context of implementing CL.
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2015-05-10T01:05:18Z scoofy: it's estimated that there are 11 million profesional software developers (+7.5 million hobbists)
2015-05-10T01:05:33Z Agileous: pjb: you're right, my poor choice of words, sorry.
2015-05-10T01:05:33Z scoofy: 1500 is a bit low, comparatively
2015-05-10T01:06:23Z pjb: I wanted to be conservative.
2015-05-10T01:07:14Z pjb: If you count scheme spoonfed to all CS students worldwide, and now Clojure, almost all educated programmer has had some exposure to lisp.
2015-05-10T01:07:38Z scoofy: the sad fact is, we never learned scheme at the university.
2015-05-10T01:08:02Z pjb: Universities don't teach programming languages.
2015-05-10T01:08:03Z scoofy: and I hear unis that had it, are dropping scheme courses, in favor for python.
2015-05-10T01:08:11Z pjb: But several modules require the use of scheme or lisp.
2015-05-10T01:08:22Z scoofy: not in the university where i learned
2015-05-10T01:08:28Z scoofy: not a single mention of scheme/lisp
2015-05-10T01:08:44Z scoofy: (supposedly, "best" university in my country)
2015-05-10T01:08:47Z pjb: scoofy: not for CS cursus.  MIT use python for non CS programming initiation.  but scheme is still used for CS people.
2015-05-10T01:09:04Z scoofy: good for them.
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2015-05-10T01:09:31Z scoofy: we were rather tortured with useless languages, like, COBOL.
2015-05-10T01:09:53Z scoofy: (okay, we were taught LOGO, that's almost LISP.)
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2015-05-10T01:10:36Z pjb: COBOL is fun. I was taught it and wrote 3 programs :-)
2015-05-10T01:10:57Z scoofy: i guess, we have different definitions of "fun"...
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2015-05-10T01:15:00Z Agileous: I'm beginning to understand the attraction Lisp has been exerting on me since a few weeks ago: it's not hardware what I'm programming for; rather, my objective is to make an easier interaction between users and software programs.
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2015-05-10T01:15:06Z pjb: scoofy: you can get opencobol on linux and re-enact the fun :-)
2015-05-10T01:15:22Z kephra: is there an other way to reach the past.lisp people beside an open readable (spam inviting) mailing list?
2015-05-10T01:15:25Z scoofy: pjb: i'll rather skip that opportunity...
2015-05-10T01:15:50Z pjb: scoofy: Think about it on your next rainy sunday afternoon.
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2015-05-10T01:16:24Z scoofy put #1 on my to-do list to re-enact some COBOL.
2015-05-10T01:16:30Z Agileous: Python probably runs circles around cobol.
2015-05-10T01:16:33Z pjb: kephra: to reach the past lisp people, a time machine would be in order.
2015-05-10T01:16:52Z pjb: Agileous: anything runs circles around cobol.
2015-05-10T01:16:59Z scoofy: cobol is an abomination
2015-05-10T01:17:03Z kephra: pjb, paste.lisp.org peopel I mean ;-)
2015-05-10T01:17:05Z Agileous: pjb: heh =)
2015-05-10T01:17:07Z pjb: scoofy: No, it's a DSL.
2015-05-10T01:17:23Z scoofy: a DSL that is an abomination.
2015-05-10T01:17:38Z pjb: kephra: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/lisppaste/
2015-05-10T01:17:38Z kephra: pjb, but a time machine to talk to William Schelter would be handy
2015-05-10T01:18:46Z scoofy: Agileous: user-software interaction is most commonly done via GUIs.
2015-05-10T01:18:57Z scoofy: (at least nowadays)
2015-05-10T01:20:06Z Agileous: scoofy: yes; I just find Windows GUIs too constrained, not versatile enough.
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2015-05-10T01:20:45Z kephra: *thanks* pjb
2015-05-10T01:20:47Z scoofy: what do you mean
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2015-05-10T01:22:31Z phf: anybody know how to get a memory address of an object in clisp with gdb?
2015-05-10T01:22:55Z kephra: Agileous, a COBOL in 2MB CICS-E will run circles around any Python with 2GB RAM
2015-05-10T01:23:13Z kephra: at least, if I ask it to serve HTML pages to more then 10.000 concurrent users
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2015-05-10T01:25:26Z Agileous: scoofy: if i want to find a filename pattern (by a regexp, for instance) across directory branches, and across filesystems . . . I can do it in a CLI, but it's a rare GUI that is capable.
2015-05-10T01:25:54Z scoofy: total commander has that
2015-05-10T01:26:25Z scoofy: yep, suppors regex
2015-05-10T01:26:44Z Agileous: and concocting powerful regexps is also daunting
2015-05-10T01:27:11Z scoofy: well... because, regexps are complicated by nature?
2015-05-10T01:27:22Z Agileous: scoofy: yes, certainly
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2015-05-10T01:27:51Z Agileous: beyond simple wildcarding, that is
2015-05-10T01:27:53Z scoofy: there's a tool called 'visual regexp'
2015-05-10T01:27:59Z scoofy: helping you a little
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2015-05-10T01:28:17Z scoofy: though many mortals will have a hard time grasping regexp
2015-05-10T01:28:31Z kephra: is it possible to implement regexp as reader macros?
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2015-05-10T01:28:50Z kephra: so a macro, to create reader macros for a regexp ;-)
2015-05-10T01:29:01Z kephra ducks for cover
2015-05-10T01:29:07Z pjb: kephra: yes.
2015-05-10T01:29:37Z Agileous: yes, i'll be using some regex tools.
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2015-05-10T01:30:58Z Agileous: visual regex seems a good technique to elucidate a pattern.
2015-05-10T01:31:21Z kephra: pjb, I fear on Lispers can come at such an idea like a macro to create reader macros to read an regexp - and i'm sure, someone implemented it
2015-05-10T01:32:54Z Bike: you could use cl-ppcre and make a reader macro for create-scanner. it would pretty much just be the same as reading any string.
2015-05-10T01:32:57Z kephra: I recall sam weingold did benchmark CL-PPCRE against Perl 10 years ago - and clisp was faster ;-)
2015-05-10T01:42:19Z Agileous: The power of tools bequeathed to us by Unix is admirable, treasured.  But the mental burden is heavy, and can be ameliorated now that gigabytes of RAM and multi-core CPUs are commonly available.  Asking a user to keep track in her mind of the meanings and permutations of a complex/abstract regex, or to remember dozens of CLI options for dozens of CLI commands is ... burdensome.
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2015-05-10T01:43:54Z scoofy: regexps are equally burdensome in perl, tcl, javascript, and other languages that support REs.
2015-05-10T01:44:05Z Agileous: The power of CLIs should not be discarded for the ease of GUIs.
2015-05-10T01:44:12Z Zhivago: No more burdensome than tracking random sexps, to be honest.
2015-05-10T01:44:54Z Zhivago: (Regarding CLIs, not regexp)
2015-05-10T01:45:11Z Agileous: scoofy: yes, regexs are just difficult constructs---though quite powerful.  I refuse to give up that power.
2015-05-10T01:45:25Z scoofy: that's why many languages offer them.
2015-05-10T01:45:57Z Bike: there are alternate syntaxes for regexes, anyway
2015-05-10T01:46:07Z scoofy: Bike: example?
2015-05-10T01:46:09Z Agileous: Zhivago: but sexps don't have to be served up to the user, no?  The engineer is the one that deals with them.
2015-05-10T01:46:31Z scoofy: Agileous: some programs use s-exp extensions.
2015-05-10T01:46:42Z scoofy: (AutoCAD, GNU Guile etc.)
2015-05-10T01:46:46Z Zhivago: You might say the same of CLI arguments.
2015-05-10T01:46:46Z Bike: cl-ppcre has a sexp one, so you can do like (:GREEDY-REPETITION 0 NIL (:REGISTER "ab"))
2015-05-10T01:47:11Z Zhivago: They can always get engineers to write no-argument scripts.
2015-05-10T01:48:03Z Agileous: Zhivago: yes, that.
2015-05-10T01:48:39Z Zhivago: I don't think that's particularly reasonable, mysef.
2015-05-10T01:49:01Z Zhivago: Most people don't use a large number of programs, and most people are capable of writing simple scripts.
2015-05-10T01:49:26Z Zhivago: So the cost of the options they don't care about is approximately zero, after discovering the options they do care about.
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2015-05-10T01:55:46Z Agileous: People want to do more as they become more familiar with their tablets/laptops.  Then menus, flags, command names, etc, begin to pile up.  Soon the user is wondering "what was the option?  -j?  -d?", and he has to open up a manpage ... and it tells him "if option BLAH is not set" ... now he has to launch another terminal to check option BLAH ... and so the complications mount up.
2015-05-10T01:57:47Z scoofy: same as in the 1970s
2015-05-10T01:57:59Z Agileous: scoofy: heh heh  ;)
2015-05-10T01:58:46Z scoofy: minus the tablets/laptops part
2015-05-10T02:00:12Z scoofy: so nowadays you can choose: powerful CLI or simplified GUI
2015-05-10T02:00:43Z Agileous: I'm all for s-exps, inasmuch as they serve me to make an interface easier for the user to use.
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2015-05-10T02:01:08Z scoofy: user-written s-exps?
2015-05-10T02:01:22Z Agileous: scoofy: heh, no  =)
2015-05-10T02:01:23Z Zhivago: agrileous: Yeah, as opposed to what alternative that doesn't involve reading documentation?
2015-05-10T02:01:25Z scoofy: they were reinvented in a bloated form, and renamed XML
2015-05-10T02:01:40Z Agileous: scoofy: lol
2015-05-10T02:01:49Z scoofy: it's true
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2015-05-10T02:02:10Z scoofy: most of the XML config files could be, s-exp config files
2015-05-10T02:02:23Z Zhivago: Or JSON, or snobol, or ...
2015-05-10T02:02:47Z Zhivago: It's not a particularly interesting or true argument -- xml and sexps have pretty distinct sweet spots.
2015-05-10T02:03:12Z Zhivago: Using sexps for marking up text, for example, is not a great idea -- because you need to quote all of the text.
2015-05-10T02:03:24Z Agileous: Zhivago: documentation is fine.  However, it should be focused, or as used to be called "context-sensitive help".
2015-05-10T02:03:28Z scoofy: at lest, you don't have tags.
2015-05-10T02:03:45Z Zhivago: If your argument is that xml is being abused for non-markup tasks, I'd agree.
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2015-05-10T02:04:08Z Zhivago: Agileous: So, you'd be happy if man pages were smarter?
2015-05-10T02:04:36Z scoofy: how do you implement 'context sensitive man page' when trying to learn what command line arguments does a program take?
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2015-05-10T02:04:52Z Agileous: Zhivago: yes; that sounds interesting.
2015-05-10T02:05:03Z scoofy: autocompletion?
2015-05-10T02:05:22Z Zhivago: Meaning this really has nothing to do with CLI. :)
2015-05-10T02:05:26Z Agileous: scoofy: that could be a way.
2015-05-10T02:05:40Z scoofy: could be a shell extension, in a CLI interface.
2015-05-10T02:05:54Z scoofy: making bash even more bloated :P
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2015-05-10T02:07:21Z scoofy: wouldn't be useful for one-letter arguments
2015-05-10T02:08:05Z Agileous: the description of a 1 letter arg could be 4 paragraphs.
2015-05-10T02:08:23Z Zhivago: That's why you have a floating window with a dancing paperclip in it to help them.
2015-05-10T02:08:38Z Agileous: Zhivago: heh heh  ;)
2015-05-10T02:08:53Z scoofy: "-Can I help you today?"
2015-05-10T02:09:09Z Agileous: To be fair, some of the old Wind. help screens were utter idiocies.
2015-05-10T02:09:13Z White_Flame: "It looks like you're trying to use the CLI.  Do you want to see GUI menu options instead?"
2015-05-10T02:09:26Z Agileous: White_Flame: lol
2015-05-10T02:12:28Z scoofy: if you use animations of cute dogs or cats, that might help the users
2015-05-10T02:13:53Z Agileous: i think what the user wants is pertinent, effective descriptions of the mechanisms, in order to make an effective choice.
2015-05-10T02:14:36Z Zhivago: So, the problem is just having good documentation?
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2015-05-10T02:15:31Z Agileous: that's part of it, there's also ease of access, focused pertinence ...
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2015-05-10T02:17:47Z Zhivago: Well, I think that I can agree that if everything were done well, it would be much better.
2015-05-10T02:18:14Z Agileous: the reason the long blue error page of Windows was so irritating is that it was so vague: "it could be this, or it could be that, or that, or the other.  Contact your system admin."  So, the info was useless; the user could do nothing with it.
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2015-05-10T02:20:13Z scoofy: "access violation at 0x156ACD3: unhandled exception"
2015-05-10T02:20:53Z Agileous: =)
2015-05-10T02:20:54Z scoofy: .net error msgs are at least, more intelligent
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2015-05-10T03:46:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-10T03:46:37Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-05-10T03:46:45Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-10T03:56:10Z beach: So I added a generic function FUNCTION-NAME to the protocol for first-class global environments.  It replaces extensions such as "named lambdas" in other implementations.
2015-05-10T03:56:50Z beach: It automatically gives a name to a function when it is given a name with (setf (fdefinition <name>) <function>)
2015-05-10T03:57:29Z beach: And it is removed by FMAKUNBOUND and (SETF MACRO-FUNCTION).
2015-05-10T03:58:36Z Bike: So can you make named lambdas with it?
2015-05-10T03:58:55Z beach: No.
2015-05-10T03:59:01Z beach: It is an alternative to named lambdas.
2015-05-10T03:59:40Z Bike: aw. but i like nonymous anonymous functions.
2015-05-10T04:00:04Z beach: This way, a function can have different names in different environments.
2015-05-10T04:00:11Z beach: And a function can have more than one name.
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2015-05-10T04:00:40Z beach: Also (setf (fdefinition 'bla) (lambda (...) ...)) gives a name to the function.
2015-05-10T04:01:49Z beach: Actually, my new generic function is called FUNCTION-NAMES and returns a list of names for the function.
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2015-05-10T04:02:46Z beach: So (SETF (FDEFINITION 'FIRST) (FDEFINITION 'CAR)) makes FUNCTION-NAMES return (FIRST CAR).
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2015-05-10T04:11:12Z beach: I know pjb thinks it's a useless feature, but I am saying it anyway; just taking advantage of the relative silence.
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2015-05-10T04:58:51Z pjb: Agileous: you have totally wrong preconceptions about CLI.
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2015-05-10T05:02:41Z Zhivago: beach: It sounds like it could be useful for confusing the buggery out of people. :)
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2015-05-10T05:08:00Z pjb: beach: what about (setf symbol-name)?
2015-05-10T05:09:49Z pjb: beach: and again, what about flet and labels.  fdefinition is a global binding.
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2015-05-10T05:13:43Z kami: Good morning #lisp
2015-05-10T05:13:43Z minion: kami, memo from eudoxia: the reasons i used that naming convention for class names were 1) i liked it and 2) at the time i mostly used fukamachiware, which uses that convention, so it was a natural fit. recently i've moved away from it to bare class names, since it was pointed out to me that i was essentially splitting a chunk of the lisp community into a ghetto. but i have not updated all my old projects.
2015-05-10T05:13:58Z beach: Hello kami.
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2015-05-10T05:14:23Z beach: Hmm.  "Memory fault at ... The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. Continuing with fingers crossed."
2015-05-10T05:14:43Z kami: beach: sounds promising
2015-05-10T05:15:54Z beach: pjb: What about (setf symbol-name)?  It looks like a terrible idea if you mean that as a name of a function.
2015-05-10T05:16:51Z beach: pjb: Thanks for telling me that fdefinition is a global binding.  I think I already knew that though.
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2015-05-10T05:24:01Z beach: kami: The "fingers crossed" part?  Nah, it crashed a short while later.
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2015-05-10T05:24:54Z kami: beach: yes, I meant that
2015-05-10T05:27:04Z beach: I think I am in for a difficult debugging problem here.
2015-05-10T05:34:11Z pjb: beach: I mean that fdefinition cannot be used to implement flet/labels, and therefore those functions will remain nameless by your scheme.
2015-05-10T05:34:51Z pjb: beach: and nothing says that defun or similar macros may not expand to (setf symbol-name) when the name is a symbol.
2015-05-10T05:35:00Z pjb: s/symbol-name/symbol-function/ of course.
2015-05-10T05:37:55Z pjb: beach: AFAICS, (setf symbol-function) and (setf fdefinition) should have the same effect, when the name is a symbol.
2015-05-10T05:38:22Z pjb: In this situation, ISTM preferable to use a third, lower level API to perform the common actions.
2015-05-10T05:40:32Z pjb: Without entering into more details, symbol-function is used 2262 times in my ~/quicklisp while fdefinition is used only 1228 times.
2015-05-10T05:40:50Z pjb: (I should purge old versions of systems from ~/quicklisp).
2015-05-10T05:42:12Z beach: I am talking about the protocol generic function (SETF FDEFINITION) which is used by both (SETF CL:FDEFINITION) and (setf CL:SYMBOL-FUNCTION).
2015-05-10T05:42:55Z pjb: ok
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2015-05-10T05:47:09Z defaultxr: can anyone tell me what i'm doing wrong with my condition handling in this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148038 i keep getting "maximum recursion depth reached" after the "Ping timeout" is output, but i don't see how, since i'm not recursing inside the condition handler. this code starts by calling (start-irc)
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2015-05-10T05:51:02Z beach: defaultxr: What does the backtrace say?  Which functions are called recursively?
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2015-05-10T05:52:15Z defaultxr: unfortunately i clobbered the output log but i'll have to look more closely next time
2015-05-10T05:53:31Z defaultxr: i'm not recursing at all though, it's pretty much all just stuff like (loop (handler-case (do-something) (error (e) (output "error"))))
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2015-05-10T06:20:38Z protist: is the #f prefix for a reader macro taken?
2015-05-10T06:20:41Z protist: if so, by what?
2015-05-10T06:20:48Z pjb: Nope.
2015-05-10T06:21:15Z protist: pjb: thank you...wondered when I noticed my editor highlighted it like it is reserved :p
2015-05-10T06:21:38Z akkad: what is the clhs entry with all the format notation, e.g. ~A~%
2015-05-10T06:22:12Z pjb: protist: you may use https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/tools/reader-macro.lisp
2015-05-10T06:22:26Z pjb: akkad: not a single one.  A while chapter.
2015-05-10T06:22:29Z pjb: s/i/o/
2015-05-10T06:22:43Z akkad: topic?
2015-05-10T06:22:56Z pjb: printer.
2015-05-10T06:22:57Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
2015-05-10T06:22:58Z akkad: anything I can search on? I've got it in front of me
2015-05-10T06:23:02Z akkad: ty
2015-05-10T06:23:45Z protist: pjb: and I just noticed something weird....apply seems to always use the function namespace.....(apply '+ '(1 2 3)) for instance....note I used '+, not #'+
2015-05-10T06:23:52Z protist: pjb: at least in CLISP
2015-05-10T06:24:04Z pjb: protist: that's it's purpose.
2015-05-10T06:24:14Z pjb: protist: that's its purpose.
2015-05-10T06:24:17Z Grue`: symbol is a valid function designator
2015-05-10T06:24:36Z protist: hmmm
2015-05-10T06:24:50Z protist: pjb: thank you for the link :)
2015-05-10T06:26:23Z Zhivago: protist: '+ and #'+ have different semantics, but both name functions.
2015-05-10T06:26:36Z pjb: designate.
2015-05-10T06:26:45Z pjb: (function +) returns a function.
2015-05-10T06:26:53Z pjb: (quote +) returns a symbol.
2015-05-10T06:26:59Z pjb: Both designate the same function.
2015-05-10T06:27:50Z pjb: (the function and the symbol).
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2015-05-10T07:00:50Z akkad: 63,790,848,992 bytes consed, building a giant list is not the fastest path I guess
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2015-05-10T07:35:23Z pjb: akkad: usually, accessing all the RAM of a computer took about one second.  Nowadays, with 64-bit systems, accessing all the RAM may take more than one second…
2015-05-10T07:36:07Z pjb: akkad: also: http://www.ilikebigbits.com/blog/2014/4/21/the-myth-of-ram-part-i
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2015-05-10T07:58:43Z schjetne: "if you try to squeeze too much L1 cache onto your CPU it will eventually collapse into a black hole"
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2015-05-10T08:03:04Z schjetne: pjb: thanks, that was a good read
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2015-05-10T08:26:13Z kami: pjb: also thanks. Can you comment on "Many languages do not support proper arrays" (part III) in case of CL (or a specific impl.)?
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2015-05-10T08:32:45Z beach: kami: I think by "proper arrays", they mean arrays in which the data would be stored directly as opposed to a pointer to the data.  We don't program like that anymore, because then the objects lose their identity.  The exception in Common Lisp is that we have "proper arrays" as specialized arrays for some types of objects where the content type is not guaranteed to work with #'EQ.
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2015-05-10T08:35:31Z beach: kami: You need to make sure you don't fall into the "terminology war" trap.  People use terminology in their political agenda.  The author of this article uses "proper" to make us feel bad if we store pointers in arrays as opposed to data.  It helps to replace "proper" by (say) "Fortran-style" or something like that.
2015-05-10T08:36:37Z ggole: Labelling aside, arbitrary layout is a good thing to have
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2015-05-10T08:38:25Z ggole: If I were to design a dynamic language that had to run fast, I would ensure that it had great support for "shaped" arrays (flat, able to place arbitrary fields in SoA layout, etc)
2015-05-10T08:39:30Z ggole: CL's array specifiers arguably go partway down this path
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2015-05-10T09:15:02Z kami: beach, ggole: thanks
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2015-05-10T09:25:43Z pjb: ggole: kami: if you want to store the data directly into the array you can do that in lisp as well.  Lisp is rather a low level programming language (for example, it has more and better bit muggling operators than C).
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2015-05-10T09:38:33Z ggole: Bit operations have nothing to do with it: Lisp arrays don't allow arbitrary layout.
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2015-05-10T09:45:40Z pjb: ggole: you are wrong.
2015-05-10T09:48:08Z ggole: How fascinating.
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2015-05-10T09:50:08Z pjb: ggole: you still don't get it?
2015-05-10T09:50:17Z pjb: Hint: defstruct :type vector
2015-05-10T09:51:27Z pjb: This is lisp: there's no difference between (cl:aref v i) and (arbitrary-layout:aref v i).
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2015-05-10T12:08:37Z protist: recently saw something exposing an Allegro Common Lisp interface and heard it refered to as a "proprietary" language of the application, and not Common Lisp
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2015-05-10T12:09:10Z protist: don't know much about Allegro Common Lisp...but I would suspect there is a license issue there somewhere
2015-05-10T12:09:30Z protist: anyone know about Allegro's license?
2015-05-10T12:12:54Z pjb: protist: most probably, they s/Common Lisp/proprietary language/ to avoid frightening investors and customers.
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2015-05-10T12:13:33Z protist: pjb: I heard that the interface was proprietary when I asked in an academic setting
2015-05-10T12:13:38Z protist: pjb: from an implementor
2015-05-10T12:14:11Z protist: pjb: didn't ask more...the interface is almost certainly using read and eval
2015-05-10T12:14:38Z protist: pjb: to be clear, was an instructor, didn't want to push the question
2015-05-10T12:16:13Z protist: pjb: the system is an intelligent tutoring system...so that is one area where I don't think Common Lisp would scare people as much
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2015-05-10T13:14:28Z schjetne: Maybe I should try that next time someone asks me what language I use. "A proprietary language of the application".
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2015-05-10T13:21:01Z beach: As a commercial strategy, that probably isn't too bad an idea.
2015-05-10T13:22:05Z kami: schjetne: and don't forget to mention the term 'domain specific'
2015-05-10T13:28:56Z kephra: schjetne, o3db.com will have a proprietary language on top of Scheme ... implemented as reader macros
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2015-05-10T13:43:54Z protist: kephra: this one didn't have macros that I saw
2015-05-10T13:44:08Z protist: kephra: a few function minimally modified from PAIP
2015-05-10T13:44:14Z protist: functions*
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2015-05-10T13:45:12Z schjetne: Usually people have never heard of it (last one I talked to name-dropped COBOL, at least it's a language from the same era)
2015-05-10T13:45:31Z schjetne: I think a lot of business types see "proprietary" as a good thing
2015-05-10T13:47:05Z kephra: I would say that AutoCad Lisp is/was a proprietary Lisp
2015-05-10T13:47:58Z kephra: and if you wrap enough DSL around a Lisp, it becomes proprietary
2015-05-10T13:49:52Z kephra: e.g. lets handwave an extreme example: I would create a 4th version of w3dig in Lisp this time
2015-05-10T13:50:11Z kephra: w3dig is a domain specific language for search engines with XML syntax
2015-05-10T13:50:58Z kephra: so first step would be XML reader macros - next I would need an DOM and XPath (I hope thats available as quicklisp) - and the product is again a proprietary language
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2015-05-10T16:05:05Z akkad: anyway to stop the endless popup buffers like this in slime https://gist.github.com/a297aa93c26143b70044
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2015-05-10T17:54:36Z jackdaniel: I'm still unsure regarding printing floats -- (format t "~0f" 3.0) should print 3.0 (my understanding of clhs, beach confirms that), or rather 3. -- behaviour of most (if not all) implementations
2015-05-10T17:55:05Z jackdaniel: on the other hand (format t "~0,0f" 3.0) should print 3. (explicitly said, no digits after ".")
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2015-05-10T17:58:30Z beach: What about the paragraph that states what happens when it is not possible to print it in the space given?
2015-05-10T17:59:26Z jackdaniel: then if overflow character is specified, print overflow character ,width times
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2015-05-10T17:59:38Z jackdaniel: if not, use minimal number of characters required
2015-05-10T17:59:44Z jackdaniel: to print float
2015-05-10T17:59:52Z beach: My problem with 3. is that it is not valid float syntax.
2015-05-10T18:00:00Z jackdaniel: I do agree with you
2015-05-10T18:00:11Z jackdaniel: read will take it as integer
2015-05-10T18:00:19Z beach: Exactly.
2015-05-10T18:00:48Z beach: Oh, well.  I need to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.  I'll read the logs later to see what other #lisp participants come up with.
2015-05-10T18:00:49Z jackdaniel: setting d=0 would be a clever hack to convert floats to integers, I have no problem with it also
2015-05-10T18:01:18Z jackdaniel: s/it also/that/
2015-05-10T18:01:29Z beach: Good luck!
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2015-05-10T18:01:32Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-05-10T18:01:37Z jackdaniel: worst part is passed
2015-05-10T18:01:48Z jackdaniel: i mean - understanding cmu-cl format implementation
2015-05-10T18:01:49Z jackdaniel: :D
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2015-05-10T18:03:40Z digiorgi: hi guys! Exist any library for web authentication?
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2015-05-10T18:05:53Z qubitnerd: omg .. yoda is here
2015-05-10T18:06:34Z digiorgi: ?
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2015-05-10T18:07:46Z madnificent: digiorgi: I don't know, however #lispweb might have someone lurking around.  If you're willing to stay around.
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2015-05-10T18:30:04Z schjetne: diginet: that's a pretty broad area. Do you have something specific in mind?
2015-05-10T18:30:18Z schjetne: Clack comes with a middleware for HTTP Basic Auth
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2015-05-10T19:11:14Z Ralt: hello
2015-05-10T19:11:31Z Ralt: I remember seeing something enhancing the CL standard
2015-05-10T19:11:36Z Ralt: a big library, if you want
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2015-05-10T19:11:44Z Ralt: can't remember which one it was though.
2015-05-10T19:12:04Z Ralt: I remember it providing a syntax for inline hash tables, using #h(), that I liked
2015-05-10T19:12:07Z Ralt: and wanted to steal.
2015-05-10T19:13:35Z phf: probably cl21
2015-05-10T19:13:58Z Ralt: phf: that was it. Thanks.
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2015-05-10T19:29:47Z phf: does anybody here still use clisp in production?
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2015-05-10T19:31:53Z dkcl: "still"?
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2015-05-10T19:32:54Z phf: bruno haible's clisp
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2015-05-10T19:39:27Z Oladon: phf: I believe dkcl's meaning is that in order to "still" be using it in production, one would have to have used it thus in the past
2015-05-10T19:40:08Z p_l: dkcl: well, infamous use case was afaik ViaWeb :)
2015-05-10T19:41:19Z dkcl: p_l: I learned something new!
2015-05-10T19:41:30Z phf: for how often it's pushed as baby's first common lisp, i'd imagine somebody would've built some infrastructure on top of it, besides viaweb
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2015-05-10T19:45:41Z phf: anyway, i was looking at a memory corruption bug in hash tables, that ought to come up pretty often under heavy use, so i figured i'll see if anybody here uses it for anything  and what are the impressions
2015-05-10T19:46:15Z Oladon: phf: I used to really like it, but got frustrated with the lack of releases/fixes and switched to SBCL
2015-05-10T19:46:43Z Oladon: phf: there was actually a post recently on Planet Lisp that they're looking for a new maintainer; there hasn't been a release since 2010
2015-05-10T19:47:01Z H4ns: phf: clisp has a few users, but in the open source world, sbcl and clozure cl are much more popular.
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2015-05-10T19:47:41Z H4ns: phf: clisp, with its virtual machine, is not quite up to speed with respect to performance, and its licensing also is more of a hindrance.
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2015-05-10T19:52:48Z jackdaniel: phf: it's core value is that it has no dependencies and any platform gcc supports can run it
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2015-05-10T19:58:50Z phf: it has the most elaborate set of autoconf/gnulib/libtool scripts that i've ever seen, that's for sure
2015-05-10T19:59:25Z dkcl: Does SBCL have any dependencies other than gmp?
2015-05-10T19:59:43Z dkcl: I don't think CCL has any dependencies (except compat6x in FreeBSD)
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2015-05-10T20:00:58Z jackdaniel: dkcl: I mean - SBCL/CCL must be explicitly ported for new platforms, clisp is fine if you have gcc
2015-05-10T20:01:14Z dkcl: Oh, I see
2015-05-10T20:01:33Z dkcl: It goes with the lack of compilation to native code, I suppose
2015-05-10T20:02:12Z jackdaniel: hmm, ecl compiles to native code (via gcc), and is also pretty portable (but depends alsoon bdwgc, gmp and libffi)
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2015-05-10T20:04:19Z dkcl: SBCL is pretty portable, but it needs to be explicitly ported for new platforms
2015-05-10T20:04:21Z phf: jackdaniel: clisp has a bunch of dependencies if you want it to be reasonable full featured, but there are provisions for building it in a severely reduced form unlike the kyoto family
2015-05-10T20:05:19Z jdm_: Hey all, I'm having trouble with a function blowing up my slimv repl.  As soon as I type the function name and a space, I get "Error detected while processing function SlimvArglist"  The function is cl-csv:read-csv-row from the cl-csv package in quicklisp.  (link to github: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv/blob/master/csv.lisp)
2015-05-10T20:05:46Z jackdaniel: phf: that's what I said basically - clisp is most portable of all implementations
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2015-05-10T20:05:55Z jdm_: See anything troublesome here?
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2015-05-10T20:07:00Z jdm_: the error above is the first of a never-ending (or at least, I've never made it to the end before killing vim) series of errors
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2015-05-10T20:12:53Z schjetne: H4ns: How is the license of CLISP a hindrance?
2015-05-10T20:13:45Z dkcl: By virtue of being the GPL
2015-05-10T20:14:07Z schjetne: So is OpenJDK, doesn't seem to be much of a hindrance at all
2015-05-10T20:14:21Z dkcl: There is reportedly no issue distributing core+image under a proprietary license, however
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2015-05-10T20:14:52Z jackdaniel: gpl doesn't impose it's license on products created with gpl-licensed software
2015-05-10T20:14:54Z dkcl: Assuming "core+image" makes sense for clisp. I don't know or care about that implementation, in any case, so don't ask me for details
2015-05-10T20:15:02Z jackdaniel: therefore you can compile with gcc proprietiary product
2015-05-10T20:15:12Z dkcl: Read again
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2015-05-10T20:15:16Z dkcl: I'm talking about distributing the clisp core
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2015-05-10T20:15:26Z dkcl: Not making fasls
2015-05-10T20:16:15Z dkcl: The core is arguably GPLed so it's intuitive to think that you can't use it to bundle a proprietary (or just non-GPL) application
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2015-05-10T20:16:27Z kephra: phf, the kyoto family KCL became GCL - clisp started with two Germans, and became GPL when readline lib was included
2015-05-10T20:16:29Z schjetne: Might as well go with LW or ACL if that's your schtick
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2015-05-10T20:17:02Z dkcl: Might as well use what you like if you like it, yes. I'm quite happy with CCL and SBCL, myself
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2015-05-10T20:18:27Z jackdaniel: assuming viaweb is not opensource (i believe it wasn't at least), and was bundled with clisp, I think license isn't a hindrance here
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2015-05-10T20:18:45Z dkcl: Read again, again. I already said it is reportedly not a problem
2015-05-10T20:19:08Z p_l: jackdaniel: it was GPLv2 and a service, not distributed to users
2015-05-10T20:19:10Z dkcl hereby abandons all clisp-related conversations, past and future
2015-05-10T20:19:21Z dkcl: That too
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2015-05-10T20:20:28Z JuanDaugherty did a KCL derivative for OS/2
2015-05-10T20:20:38Z Quadrescence: @_@
2015-05-10T20:20:41Z p_l: JuanDaugherty: Oh? care to share?
2015-05-10T20:21:38Z JuanDaugherty: oh geez it was nearly 25 ya, doubt I have any sources left;anyway does anybody still use OS/2 here?
2015-05-10T20:21:51Z dkcl: I like reading MacLisp and Symbolics Lisp code
2015-05-10T20:21:59Z JuanDaugherty: ah
2015-05-10T20:22:08Z dkcl: I'm guessing the correct name for the latter is Lisp Machine Lisp
2015-05-10T20:22:18Z p_l: JuanDaugherty: no, but I was raised around OS/2 :)
2015-05-10T20:22:21Z schjetne: Not Zetalisp?
2015-05-10T20:22:23Z Quadrescence: dkcl, For Symbolics, it was ZetaLisp.
2015-05-10T20:22:34Z dkcl: Oops, my bad
2015-05-10T20:22:38Z Quadrescence: Lisp Machine Lisp sort of preceded that, and Symbolics branded it as ZetaLisp.
2015-05-10T20:22:44Z dkcl: I stand corrected
2015-05-10T20:22:52Z Quadrescence: You're not all wrong. :)
2015-05-10T20:23:04Z p_l: then you had multiple dialect support (ZetaLisp, ANSI, ANSI+Zetalisp extensions, iirc)
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2015-05-10T20:23:40Z Quadrescence: well there wasn't really ANSI support, it was sort of wrapped inside something called FUTURE-COMMON-LISP which intended to be close to ANSI.
2015-05-10T20:23:43Z JuanDaugherty: p_l, it's still not completely dead, like anything like that it survives in some form, some folks never can say goobye
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2015-05-10T20:24:13Z dkcl: I knew about FUTURE-COMMON-LISP, but I didn't know all those dialects were supported. Interesting
2015-05-10T20:24:14Z p_l: JuanDaugherty: I was there for when Windows 95 (and more to it Windows NT 4.0) really killed OS/2
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2015-05-10T20:25:10Z JuanDaugherty: p_l, yeah it was around that time I replaced OS/2 with linux (tried FreeBSD and threw it up)
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2015-05-10T20:26:19Z schjetne: I wonder if Interlisp-VAX sources are around somewhere and can be ported to a modern system
2015-05-10T20:26:49Z phf: schjetne: there's lispf4
2015-05-10T20:27:37Z schjetne: phf: neat
2015-05-10T20:30:11Z JuanDaugherty: actually I probably do have some sources on some old media but a) it wouldn't be worth the search effort and b) I pity a lisp implementation that emits c these days
2015-05-10T20:31:08Z Quadrescence: I don't find anything wrong with emitting C as a portable assembly, as long as you're not trying to do things like map Lisp functions to C functions.
2015-05-10T20:31:26Z phf: there are os/2 in production still, at at least two banking companies, that will remain nameless
2015-05-10T20:32:19Z p_l: well, it was used in ATMs. Not that competitors had better OS on those...
2015-05-10T20:32:21Z JuanDaugherty: yeah and there's a maintenance group of some kind, i think IBM released sources to them
2015-05-10T20:32:39Z p_l: they sold off OS/2 kind of to some company
2015-05-10T20:32:45Z p_l: they even released some updates
2015-05-10T20:32:52Z JuanDaugherty: so prolly runs on current hardware
2015-05-10T20:32:55Z zacts: I <3 symbolics classic homepage
2015-05-10T20:32:58Z zacts: it's so classic
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2015-05-10T20:34:21Z JuanDaugherty: it's like VB / 'classic' ASP shops, which you run into
2015-05-10T20:34:28Z JuanDaugherty: they're stuck in 1999
2015-05-10T20:35:56Z JuanDaugherty: clisp and lisp implementations (other than embedded maybe) that emit c are like that
2015-05-10T20:38:51Z phf: odd to hear "stuck in the past" arguments on this channel
2015-05-10T20:39:13Z H4ns: phf: "what do you mean by that?"
2015-05-10T20:40:20Z kristof: I haven't done any preliminary research on this, but what implementation is the best to minimize image size of the binary and memory usage for use on an ARM Cortex?
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2015-05-10T20:40:52Z kristof: Was thinking about generating some HTML on an embedded platform and serve webpages and stuff and immediately thought "Oh, that would make a nice DSL in common lisp"
2015-05-10T20:41:15Z kristof: but I've been programming in C for the past year and also thought "Nope, memory constraints."
2015-05-10T20:41:24Z kristof: But I suspect I am overreacting in this regard
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2015-05-10T20:41:36Z kristof: Someone in here will ask for the actual physical constraints, let me find the model I'm using...
2015-05-10T20:41:45Z jackdaniel: kristof: I use ecl on cortex - it's pretty slow compared to ccl and sbcl tough
2015-05-10T20:42:14Z kristof: jackdaniel: I would imagine. I trust SBCL/CCL's static analysis much, much more
2015-05-10T20:42:18Z kristof: jackdaniel: But SBCL images are also massive
2015-05-10T20:42:36Z jackdaniel: but you can easily mix it with C and it's not memory-hungry
2015-05-10T20:43:09Z kristof: Perhaps, but the very program itself will take up a lot of memory.
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2015-05-10T20:44:47Z p_l: kristof: the real question is... Cortex-Mx or Cortex-Ax?
2015-05-10T20:46:05Z kristof: p_l: M
2015-05-10T20:46:40Z p_l: ... ECL is your only chance, because Cortex-M doesn't use "normal" ARM instructions
2015-05-10T20:46:47Z kristof: Oh no
2015-05-10T20:47:05Z p_l: (so SBCL's work on arm port, nor CCLs are applicable, not even LWs, afaik)
2015-05-10T20:47:06Z kristof: Well, it doesn't need to be fast, just dynamically generate and serve HTML pages
2015-05-10T20:47:11Z nyef: What, is it THUMB-only?
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2015-05-10T20:47:16Z kristof: ...actually, that could be slow
2015-05-10T20:47:24Z p_l: nyef: Cortex-Mx are Thumb/Thumb2 only
2015-05-10T20:47:31Z nyef: Mmm.
2015-05-10T20:47:50Z gniourf_gniourf: is there a reason that this doesn' work in ecl (v13.5.1)? (defgeneric p (t)) (defmethod p ((a string)) (format t "~a~%" a))
2015-05-10T20:47:56Z gniourf_gniourf: it works fine in clisp and sbcl
2015-05-10T20:48:20Z nyef: Well, could still be done, but you're looking at another port effort, similar to turning the x86 backend into the x86-64 backend, though at least without the bit about fixing things to run with a 64-bit heap word.
2015-05-10T20:48:26Z gniourf_gniourf: error is: Condition of type: SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR  Not a valid variable name T.
2015-05-10T20:48:50Z H4ns: gniourf_gniourf: the error message is rathe clear to me.
2015-05-10T20:49:03Z jackdaniel: gniourf_gniourf: t is a symbol, I'm not sure if you can use it as variable name (even in defgeneric)
2015-05-10T20:49:07Z Xach: gniourf_gniourf: I don't know the stance of the spec, but using "t" in defgeneric lambda list is a generally bad idea
2015-05-10T20:49:28Z Xach: i often use "object" in cases like that
2015-05-10T20:49:28Z gniourf_gniourf: I'm using it as the base class of all objects
2015-05-10T20:49:31Z gniourf_gniourf: am I wrong here?
2015-05-10T20:49:41Z jackdaniel: gniourf_gniourf: just replace it with (defgeneric p (type))
2015-05-10T20:49:46Z jackdaniel: and you'll be fine
2015-05-10T20:49:47Z Xach: gniourf_gniourf: a variable name is used there, not a type name
2015-05-10T20:50:07Z Xach: although t is one of the rare type names that is bad as a variable name
2015-05-10T20:50:35Z kristof: p_l: What's abnormal about the cortex M's implementation of the arm instruction set? I didn't know there was such a discrepancy
2015-05-10T20:50:56Z gniourf_gniourf: oh yeah thanks guys!
2015-05-10T20:50:56Z gniourf_gniourf: :)
2015-05-10T20:50:58Z p_l: kristof: essentially it doesn't implement what most people think of ARM ISA at all
2015-05-10T20:51:27Z kristof: p_l: ...so why call it arm?
2015-05-10T20:51:29Z p_l: kristof: instead it runs Thumb/Thumb2, normally an extension to ARM spec, exclusively
2015-05-10T20:51:36Z kristof: oh
2015-05-10T20:51:37Z p_l: kristof: because the company is called that? :)
2015-05-10T20:52:33Z kristof: p_l: I didn't know what Thumb was, but it makes sense given the use-case for the M series
2015-05-10T20:52:48Z p_l: and yes, Thumb was originally just an extension for ARM cpus (an alternative mode of operation, even)
2015-05-10T20:53:02Z phf: H4ns: just that this channel has a wide breadth of technological experience from which comes appreciation of tradeoffs and constraints. i.e. "i worked on cobol codebase for a year, it was kind of fun"
2015-05-10T20:53:24Z p_l: phf: COBOL codebases could be fun, yes
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2015-05-10T20:55:24Z p_l ← the guy who from time to time plays with a pocket mainframe
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2015-05-10T20:58:59Z phf: p_l: yeah, exactly :) i wrote some hp cobol quite recently for a tandem system
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2015-05-10T21:01:00Z kephra wrote some REXX to monitor a DOS/VS with Nagios ... if that counts
2015-05-10T21:01:44Z kephra: p_l, what do you call a pocket mainframe: Hercules on your Smartphone?
2015-05-10T21:02:49Z p_l: kephra: on laptop. Smartphone not yet powerful enough for that kind of stuff, though I guess my tablet just might be usable
2015-05-10T21:03:06Z p_l: but I tend to run z/OS 1.10, not MVS, so it's a bit heavy
2015-05-10T21:03:24Z kephra: *ui*
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2015-05-10T21:04:23Z kephra: most MVS systems today are running one of my PTFs ;-)
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2015-05-10T21:04:31Z p_l: also going through Redbooks published by IBM
2015-05-10T21:05:24Z p_l: kephra: nice!
2015-05-10T21:05:40Z kephra: http://kephra.de/src/mvs38-y2k.txt <- a ZAP and IEBUPDTE for expire date
2015-05-10T21:06:05Z kephra: this was distributed by CBT 1999 - and used by Volker Bandke and others
2015-05-10T21:06:52Z p_l: I guess my old turnkey ran it ;D
2015-05-10T21:06:59Z kephra: yeah
2015-05-10T21:07:19Z p_l: z/OS 1.10 obviously had all y2k stuff patched already
2015-05-10T21:08:14Z p_l: I keep a basic familiarity with IBM mainframe stuff for a bad time, they make it easier to get into financial sector apparently ;)
2015-05-10T21:08:52Z kephra: i started on mainframes, and moved to so called open systems in the 80s
2015-05-10T21:09:19Z kephra: there was no use for a system programmer, without operating system source code anymore
2015-05-10T21:09:35Z kephra: I moved, most others moved also - IBM killed the mainframe that way, imho
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2015-05-10T21:11:49Z p_l: nowadays with most code proprietary in some ways (well, sure, there's lots of opensource too, but even that is sometimes as proprietary as it gets...) I guess the difference dropped a bit :|
2015-05-10T21:11:49Z kephra: ... and if people now thing mainframes are mainly COBOL and ASM - wrong - it was a lot of GML (general markup language, and SGML precursor) to generate the bits and bytes - a lot of REXX - and a few lines of COPYBOOK, if you did it right
2015-05-10T21:12:56Z kephra: *oh* and somewhere hidden was a (loop-sum (* quantity price)
2015-05-10T21:13:01Z kephra: )
2015-05-10T21:13:28Z kephra: ... written in COBOL
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2015-05-10T21:15:22Z kephra: one of my "dreams" would be to hack enough of z into VM/370 to IPL a Linux or even an Lisp system ;-)
2015-05-10T21:16:14Z kephra: is there a common LISP running an an LPAR or VM - playing operating system?
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2015-05-10T21:20:11Z phf: kephra: movitz and also github.com/froggey/mezzano
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2015-05-10T21:28:18Z dkcl: The tests for sb-concurrency and sb-bsd-sockets fail when compiling SBCL under FreeBSD
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2015-05-10T22:01:56Z JuanDaugherty: there appear to be 2 FreeBSDs supported
2015-05-10T22:02:44Z JuanDaugherty: are you using the debian one?
2015-05-10T22:03:24Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I remember you were once choosing an UTF-8 binary decoder/encoder which could operate on streams. Which one did you choose? I'm currently in a process of redesigning JAMS architecture and I'd like to stick to something that is at least relatively fast so I won't bump into bottlenecks and other later which would require changing stuff.
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2015-05-10T22:03:37Z Shinmera: Babel.
2015-05-10T22:04:04Z hitecnologys: Are there any comparisons of those that you tried/used before?
2015-05-10T22:04:14Z Shinmera: I think there's only two and Babel is the one that had a better performance for me.
2015-05-10T22:04:36Z Shinmera: I didn't look in-depth into anything, so I can't say.
2015-05-10T22:04:43Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-05-10T22:04:48Z hitecnologys: Well, thanks anyway.
2015-05-10T22:05:32Z hitecnologys: I might do benchmarks meanwhile if I ever feel like it but there's a big chance I won't.
2015-05-10T22:05:40Z Shinmera: If you need to be performant, avoid flexi-streams and use something like fast-io instead.
2015-05-10T22:05:54Z hitecnologys: Yeah, I'm currently porting it to fast-io.
2015-05-10T22:06:09Z JuanDaugherty: *VB6 / 'classic' asp
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2015-05-10T22:06:26Z dkcl: JuanDaugherty: Plain FreeBSD-stable
2015-05-10T22:06:35Z dkcl: Not kFreeBSD or whatever it's called
2015-05-10T22:07:08Z dkcl: There are errors in OpenBSD as well but that seems to be the rule, and I don't have the workstation running it here
2015-05-10T22:07:25Z JuanDaugherty: ah, well that may be the problem, there's a price to pay for that kind of stability
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2015-05-10T22:08:08Z JuanDaugherty: dunno if the debian version would  be any diff
2015-05-10T22:08:31Z JuanDaugherty: if it's same BSD level
2015-05-10T22:08:40Z dkcl: I mostly care about multithreading and networking, and while the latter seems to fail the test[s], USOCKET seems to work as far as I can tell
2015-05-10T22:08:47Z dkcl: I suppose so
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2015-05-10T22:17:07Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I don't see any stream-related functions in babel package. Did you just read it to byte array and then decode?
2015-05-10T22:18:04Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: yeah, read a sequence and then decode it.
2015-05-10T22:18:36Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: isn't it a little bit inefficient?
2015-05-10T22:18:52Z Shinmera: Back when I wrote plump-bundle I wasn't happy about that either, but I don't think I found anything performant that could do it directly.
2015-05-10T22:19:05Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-05-10T22:19:26Z hitecnologys: I'll stick to this method and research problem later then, when I'm done (again) with low-level stuff.
2015-05-10T22:19:52Z hitecnologys: Because I wouldn't want server to slow down because it can't decode strings fast enough.
2015-05-10T22:20:17Z Shinmera: You could see what Woo/fast-http/etc do since they must handle things like that as well.
2015-05-10T22:20:29Z hitecnologys: Yeah.
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2015-05-10T23:46:16Z akkad: ql has spoiled me
2015-05-10T23:46:43Z Oladon: It's not a bad spoiled, though
2015-05-10T23:47:54Z akkad: is there an easy way to "install" a asdf'd package not in ql?
2015-05-10T23:47:59Z akkad: cl-libssh2
2015-05-10T23:48:12Z Xach: akkad: one easy way is to put its sources in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2015-05-10T23:48:23Z akkad: ok thanks
2015-05-10T23:48:24Z Xach: akkad: if ql is not loaded, you may be able to put it in ~/common-lisp/ if asdf is new enough
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2015-05-10T23:59:39Z akkad: pwd