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2015-05-09T00:05:44Z Xach would love to see a quicklisp universe lxr-style thing
2015-05-09T00:08:49Z dnm: Hey Xach.
2015-05-09T00:09:12Z Xach: hi!
2015-05-09T00:09:26Z dnm: How are you doing? Thanks for the ELS writeup.
2015-05-09T00:09:43Z Xach: good! Excited about lisp stuff, post-els
2015-05-09T00:09:48Z Xach: It was fun to see the excited people
2015-05-09T00:10:22Z dnm: Nice. I like when conferences have that effect.
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2015-05-09T00:54:32Z Quadrescence: Xach, you had a blog post about logical pathnames, wondering who uses them, no?
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2015-05-09T00:55:40Z nyef: ... SBCL uses logical pathnames.
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2015-05-09T00:55:59Z nyef: The "SYS" logical pathname host.
2015-05-09T00:56:02Z Quadrescence: nyef, they are a great idea
2015-05-09T00:56:22Z Quadrescence: but force you to adopt a certain file naming convention
2015-05-09T00:56:36Z nyef: They're a great idea, with a flawed specification, and thus flawed implementations. But they're still awesome when they can be used.
2015-05-09T00:57:09Z nyef: And if you need to work with a file that has a "real" name that doesn't work with the logical pathname system, you can add a specific translation for it.
2015-05-09T00:57:23Z Quadrescence: gross
2015-05-09T00:57:40Z Quadrescence: I made this to cover the 90% use case of logical pathnames: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/illogical-pathnames
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2015-05-09T00:59:53Z Xach: Quadrescence: yeah, but I never got much material out of it.
2015-05-09T01:00:17Z Quadrescence: Clozure CL makes logical pathnames pretty useful for the Modern World, but they don't follow the standard.
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2015-05-09T01:01:52Z Xach: I don't really find the initial premise compelling.
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2015-05-09T01:02:14Z Xach: It's a little like saying "So you've jumped to conclusions about how things work...now let's make something new for your original conclusions"
2015-05-09T01:02:39Z Quadrescence: Xach, FWIW it came out of building large systems for work that get deployed as binaries or as source on different HW configurations
2015-05-09T01:02:44Z Quadrescence: that's where the problem really came from
2015-05-09T01:03:35Z Xach: It makes sense to do something logical-pathname-like for when they don't do what you want, but I am a little tired of what seems like a constant stream of "they can never do what you want"
2015-05-09T01:03:36Z Quadrescence: the alternative way is to make a bunch of disorganized *ROOT-PATH* *ASSET-PATH* variables which you MERGE-PATHNAMES with. :S
2015-05-09T01:04:10Z Quadrescence: Xach, the rules such as ALL-CAPS, lowercase translation, and no characters but letters, numbers, and hyphens is very restrictive
2015-05-09T01:04:22Z Xach: If you put paths in your source code, and you can easily list 'em all, you have what seems to me a basis for for a good use of logical pathnames.
2015-05-09T01:05:03Z Quadrescence: what do you mean by "easily list them all"?
2015-05-09T01:05:22Z Xach: Quadrescence: I think you have to accept that you may have to install translations for each pathname in your codebase.
2015-05-09T01:05:26Z Xach: individually.
2015-05-09T01:05:36Z Quadrescence: Yes, that is a very bad solution.
2015-05-09T01:06:06Z Quadrescence: It means I have to update more than one location in source code for any individual pathname change. THat's bad in and of itself.
2015-05-09T01:06:28Z Xach: Quadrescence: how so?
2015-05-09T01:06:42Z Quadrescence: The only convenience it affords is having all of the physical pathnames in one place.
2015-05-09T01:06:49Z Quadrescence: As opposed to sprinkled in the code.
2015-05-09T01:07:14Z Xach: Quadrescence: I am not following, sorry. How does having individual translations for each logical pathname in the source require updating more than one location in the source?
2015-05-09T01:07:25Z Xach: I also don't see how it relates to where the physical pathnames are.
2015-05-09T01:08:11Z Quadrescence: Okay, let's clarify the following. You are saying that we need to have a translation from logical pathname to physical pathname. We can't just specify a logical host with wildcards, unless we are very strict in the naming conventions of our files. Do you agree?
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2015-05-09T01:08:49Z Xach: Quadrescence: Of the phsyical files, yes.
2015-05-09T01:08:58Z pjb: Quadrescence: you should be able.  But it won't be conforming.
2015-05-09T01:09:21Z pjb: Which is a shame, because the meaning of "native case" seems quite unambiguous to me.
2015-05-09T01:09:22Z Xach: Quadrescence: Or rather, we can't rely on the convenience of a bulk automatic translation.
2015-05-09T01:09:42Z Xach: Quadrescence: if the only palatable use in a project requires that convenience, i think it's an unsuitable tool...
2015-05-09T01:09:48Z Xach: (sorry to jump in with many short bits)
2015-05-09T01:10:26Z Quadrescence: I was not right about the updating in two places. You can define the translation in such a way that the logical pathname does not change with the physical pathname.
2015-05-09T01:11:10Z brucem: AmigaOS assigns were similar to logical pathnames, right?
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2015-05-09T01:14:05Z Quadrescence: Xach: The one big list approach also makes it difficult to take advantage of directory structure. If every file potentially needs its own translation, then there's no sharing. If you decide to make a logical pathname for a directory, then you're back to doing merge-pathnames, which is essentially the same as the variable definition version earlier.
2015-05-09T01:14:51Z Xach: Sharing of what?
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2015-05-09T01:16:09Z Quadrescence: By sharing, I mean using logical pathnames as a means for constructing a variety of pathnames with one syntax and one translation, as opposed to many translations.
2015-05-09T01:16:16Z Fare: Quadrescence, did you read what I wrote in the logs about quux's qpath?
2015-05-09T01:16:29Z Quadrescence: I don't read the logs for better or worse.
2015-05-09T01:16:53Z Fare: well, qres had a utility qpath, included in the opensourced quux tarball.
2015-05-09T01:17:18Z Quadrescence: I'll see if I can find it
2015-05-09T01:17:19Z Fare: which mapped relative pathname or namestring to absolute pathname based on a prefix table
2015-05-09T01:17:25Z brucem: if logical pathnames are like assigns from AmigaOS, then they're used pretty regularly in the game development world .. including one of the first party PS3 file system libraries.
2015-05-09T01:17:35Z Xach: Quadrescence: ok. no, i don't think that's a strong point. again, i think it's strongest when there is a finite, limited number of specific pathnames in source code - a translation isn't a fountain of mappings
2015-05-09T01:17:37Z Fare: and was disabled by default at build time to prevent a leak of runtime pathname
2015-05-09T01:17:58Z Quadrescence: Xach, it was intended to be such though, no?
2015-05-09T01:18:13Z Xach: Quadrescence: i don't get that impression from cltl2.
2015-05-09T01:18:13Z Fare: (we also ensured the compiler would only remember relative or logical pathname)
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2015-05-09T01:19:35Z Xach: Quadrescence: To me it seems like facilitating #p"app:config;network-settings.txt" being "/etc/app/network.conf" in the source being on unix and "C:\APP\NTWRK.CNF" somewhere else, etc., and having a list of all of those references handy for potential translation.
2015-05-09T01:19:38Z Fare: you can't rely on logical pathnames for anything portable, which kind of defeats part of their intended purpose.
2015-05-09T01:20:17Z Xach: Quadrescence: this of course makes more sense in a world where part of the delivery process is producing translations for the target machine and implementation.
2015-05-09T01:20:25Z Quadrescence: Xach, CLHS examples are mostly wildcard -> wildcard translations
2015-05-09T01:20:26Z Xach: Quadrescence: not as much where you want to fire and forget
2015-05-09T01:20:36Z Xach: Quadrescence: CLHS omits a lot of prose from CLTL2 in this regard.
2015-05-09T01:21:38Z Fare: and then there's :version nil vs :version latest, how they are normalized and translated, which varies with implementation...
2015-05-09T01:21:50Z Xach: That's one of the reasons why I was looking for people who have used them with success, not the usual complainers.
2015-05-09T01:22:09Z Xach: But it's been a long time, so it's a distant, fuzzy memory.
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2015-05-09T01:23:21Z Fare: leading to pathnames that look the same but aren't actually equal, and you better normalize yourself before you use them as keys in a hash-table
2015-05-09T01:24:43Z Quadrescence: Xach, I wasn't aware I was a usual complainer, if you are implying that. I rarely ever see logical pathnames in the wild. I was turned on to them by someone I worked with, who made a very good case for using them to specify "filesystem-position-independent" pathnames in code by creating a very general **/*.*.* translation. I am gleaning from you that that is an inappropriate way to use them and therefore the situation I presented in my reposit
2015-05-09T01:24:43Z Quadrescence: ory is not fair to logical pathnames,.
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2015-05-09T01:26:03Z Xach: Quadrescence: I don't think you're a usual complainer. There are some who spring from the woodwork at any mention of logical pathnames to deny they have any utility in These Modern Times. I suspect they are wrong, but have not fully investigated. I'm looking for ideas and examples from the past and from today.
2015-05-09T01:26:20Z Xach: logical pathname kibos
2015-05-09T01:26:31Z Xach: Well, I was
2015-05-09T01:26:42Z Quadrescence: Well, I may be somewhat of a usual complainer if I am trying to pigeonhole logical pathnames into a problem that they weren't intended to solve.
2015-05-09T01:26:43Z Xach: It's down on my list of things to investigate
2015-05-09T01:27:39Z Quadrescence: CCL and SBCL (?) seem to use them to solve the problem I presented. CCL more successfully since it basically doesn't conform in that respect AFAICT.
2015-05-09T01:27:51Z Xach: Quadrescence: It could be inherent trouble, or trouble in the model suggested by the spec, or some other trouble.
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2015-05-09T01:28:35Z Xach: My feeling is that there's a model that can be used, narrowly, in ways that fail at providing frequently desired behaviors
2015-05-09T01:28:47Z Xach: But a useful model anway. Maybe.
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2015-05-09T01:31:12Z Xach: Quadrescence: And I don't think it's a bad thing to implement similar mechanisms that cover more desired behaviors.
2015-05-09T01:31:28Z Xach: I think the general concept is good.
2015-05-09T01:33:11Z Xach: I wish the motivations listed were more than just "gee, i want to automagically map to a physical pathname that doesn't match logical pathname restrictions"
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2015-05-09T01:33:37Z Quadrescence: Well I guess I could delete my failures to use logical pathnames correctly and get to the point it's trying to really solve.
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2015-05-09T01:37:31Z Xach: It's a valid motivation! But that's also a little like writing "packages are great until you discover that they aren't hierarchical! ugh!"
2015-05-09T01:37:47Z Quadrescence: that is true
2015-05-09T01:38:05Z Xach: they do what they do, and maybe there's a sweet spot
2015-05-09T01:38:14Z Xach: there has to be a pony under here somewhere!
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2015-05-09T01:42:18Z akkad: can optimize speed 3 actually slow things down?
2015-05-09T01:42:29Z akkad is seeing twice the performance putting speed 3 to speed 0
2015-05-09T01:43:16Z akkad: sort of expected the opposite
2015-05-09T01:43:20Z akkad: on sbcl and other
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2015-05-09T01:43:45Z nyef: Might be bloating your program size, thus hammering your I-cache.
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2015-05-09T01:47:19Z Xach is itching for another boston lisp dinner
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2015-05-09T01:49:21Z nyef: Xach: Any time over the next two weeks works for me.
2015-05-09T01:50:47Z nyef: (Well, okay, not this weekend, but otherwise...)
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2015-05-09T02:13:37Z Quadrescence: Xach: I rewrote it to be more fair. Thanks for the comments.
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2015-05-09T02:17:58Z akkad: if only the bay area was that lispy
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2015-05-09T02:29:25Z zacts: can CL compile to javascript?
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2015-05-09T02:41:47Z Xach: zacts: in theory, not in practice. there are some things like parenscript (which is its own CL-like language)
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2015-05-09T02:56:22Z nydel: a memory leak in the dedicated server for some mmo video game causes the system operator to need to shut the game down safely and start the process again in order to avoid crashes and loss of player data etc ... i'm already using lisp to augment the server instance (listening for and parsing the in-game chat so users can do "/dice" to roll dice or "/warp home" to teleport etc) and now i want to automate the sa
2015-05-09T02:56:28Z nydel: fe shutdowns and restarts, not on a static interval, but when it becomes prudent; to determine whether it's prudent i need to thread a function that evaluates down to how much ra memory is free - i assume this can be done with cl in some manner other than calling shell scripts but i'm not sure where to begin in terms of existing packages/systems etc.. any input advice etc that could point me in the right direc
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2015-05-09T02:56:29Z zacts: ah ok
2015-05-09T02:56:34Z nydel: tion would be greatly appreciated! thankyous
2015-05-09T02:56:36Z zacts: well, I guess there is also clojurescript
2015-05-09T02:56:45Z zacts: for a lispy kind of JSish language
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2015-05-09T03:07:02Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Has anyone done something like this before? https://gist.github.com/Halfwake/d770bf9cc1ef377af1ca How did it go?
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2015-05-09T03:07:19Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Macros to enforce valid enum values at compile time.
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2015-05-09T03:11:48Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner_, This does something along a similar vein, but is much more extended: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-algebraic-data-type
2015-05-09T03:12:33Z Quadrescence: "Enums" are restricted by type, which is a little more informative than a keyword, though not very idiomatic
2015-05-09T03:14:34Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Ah, this is nice.
2015-05-09T03:14:44Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Sort of what I wish Racket's struct system was like.
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2015-05-09T03:14:56Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner_, http://codepad.org/koSDiQAJ
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2015-05-09T03:17:29Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner_, more than just symbolic enumerations http://codepad.org/8vLXiRBg
2015-05-09T03:18:07Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Feels like Haskell.
2015-05-09T03:18:12Z Quadrescence: ;)
2015-05-09T03:20:28Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner_, One possible downside of the macro you're proposing is that it doesn't work with arguments that need to be evaluated.
2015-05-09T03:21:33Z Petit_Dejeuner_: True, and code that uses it would need to be recompiled with it.
2015-05-09T03:22:11Z Bike: wouldn't it make sense to just (declare (type color foo)) and let the compiler handle it?
2015-05-09T03:22:13Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Did you ever get my question about locatives? When I found the term, I was looking at a paper on a lisp machine, and it explained how they were used in the implementation of a function. When we talked about it, I wound up looking at this code. https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-locatives In older lisp machines, would programmers just refer explicitly to the locatives instead of using macros?
2015-05-09T03:22:20Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner_: (check-type val (member :red :green :blue))
2015-05-09T03:22:32Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner_:  (deftype color () (member :red :green :blue)) (check-type val color)
2015-05-09T03:22:46Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Bike, pjb, that makes more sense, thanks
2015-05-09T03:23:00Z Petit_Dejeuner_: I was wondering why that sort of thing wasn't fairly common.
2015-05-09T03:23:08Z Petit_Dejeuner_: er, what I did wasn't fairly common
2015-05-09T03:24:16Z Bike: member types are common. adts like Quadrescence did there aren't, but they're pretty cool.
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2015-05-09T03:25:06Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner_, some functions could understand locatives directly
2015-05-09T03:25:16Z Quadrescence: like CAR and CDR (and derivatives like RPLACA/D)
2015-05-09T03:26:06Z Quadrescence: Otherwise you used a function called CONTENTS. LOCF made a locative.
2015-05-09T03:26:44Z Quadrescence: LOCF is the CL-LOCATIVES macro LOCATIVE-FOR approximately.
2015-05-09T03:26:47Z Petit_Dejeuner_: LOCF is to & what * is to CONTENTS?
2015-05-09T03:26:54Z Quadrescence: yes
2015-05-09T03:27:16Z Quadrescence: or in CL-LOCATIVES:   LOCF : LOCATIVE-FOR :: CONTENTS : DEREFERENCE
2015-05-09T03:27:29Z Petit_Dejeuner_: But for functions that could understand locatives directly, I wouldn't need to derference?
2015-05-09T03:27:35Z Quadrescence: Yes
2015-05-09T03:27:56Z Quadrescence: Those were very special cases though, usually due to convenient memory layout
2015-05-09T03:28:15Z pjb: lcoative http://paste.lisp.org/+366M
2015-05-09T03:29:26Z pjb: locative http://paste.lisp.org/+366M
2015-05-09T03:29:29Z pjb: (for logs)
2015-05-09T03:29:33Z Bike: implementing locatives efficiently in a moving garbage collector must be exciting.
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2015-05-09T03:30:00Z Quadrescence: Bike, hah
2015-05-09T03:30:11Z Bike: i mean, would be exciting, if anyone had done it.
2015-05-09T03:31:17Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Just count the references.
2015-05-09T03:31:40Z Bike: reference counting doesn't real!
2015-05-09T03:32:25Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Moon could never complete an argument against it! http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/koans.html
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2015-05-09T03:36:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-09T03:37:34Z Quadrescence: hello beach
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2015-05-09T03:55:18Z theos: hey
2015-05-09T03:57:01Z beach: Hello theos.
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2015-05-09T04:06:53Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-05-09T04:07:58Z drmeister: beach: Something else I was curious to hear your thoughts about.
2015-05-09T04:08:14Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-05-09T04:08:32Z drmeister: One of the guys at the llvm social last night started going off on compilers that he described as using "a sea of nodes".
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2015-05-09T04:09:52Z drmeister: His criticism was that there are enormous numbers of edges and if the compiler has a problem and screws up the graph, that it is almost impossible to find.
2015-05-09T04:11:11Z beach: Maybe he is used to compilers written in C++.
2015-05-09T04:11:42Z drmeister: I/we have some experience in this in some of the problems that I ran into with Cleavir when I had to find a new program (Cytoviz? Cytoview?) to render the graphs and follow links to identify the problem.
2015-05-09T04:11:53Z beach: Then, using any complex data structure without garbage collection would be a nightmare.
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2015-05-09T04:16:10Z beach: Too many nodes, huh?  Was it Mozart who was told "too many notes!"?
2015-05-09T04:16:20Z drmeister: He felt that basic blocks were a lot easier to work with.  Then he spent about half an hour talking about new instructions in LLVM (I think) to annotate when an exception handler ended and normal processing resumes.
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2015-05-09T04:16:34Z drmeister: Hah! Yes.
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2015-05-09T04:17:32Z drmeister: They talked about graphviz not being able to handle large graphs and said that Microsoft had developed some software to view large graphs.
2015-05-09T04:17:36Z drmeister: View and search
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2015-05-09T04:20:07Z beach: Good for them (Microsoft).
2015-05-09T04:20:31Z drmeister: This might be it http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/msagl/
2015-05-09T04:20:35Z zacts: microsoft made a lisp?
2015-05-09T04:20:45Z zacts: oh, nvmnd
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2015-05-09T04:21:00Z beach: :)
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2015-05-09T04:21:54Z beach: drmeister: Looks great.
2015-05-09T04:25:06Z drmeister: 15,000 nodes in 10 minutes... written in C#... needs Visual Studio... bleh.
2015-05-09T04:27:15Z beach: drmeister: The other day you said "I hitched my wagon to a winner here".  What were you referring to?
2015-05-09T04:27:53Z drmeister: C++ - it was tongue in cheek
2015-05-09T04:28:03Z beach: Oh, I see.  Got it.
2015-05-09T04:28:04Z drmeister: sort of
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2015-05-09T04:30:35Z beach: I think that, independently of Clasp, it would be interesting to attempt to translate your molecule software to Common Lisp.  It would take some time, but it would be a very interesting experiment.
2015-05-09T04:30:50Z beach: Both the translation part and the result would be quite interesting.
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2015-05-09T04:31:04Z beach: One could compare performance, of course, but also maintainability.
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2015-05-09T04:32:29Z beach: It would be even better if it could be done incrementally, i.e., moving a few classes at a time from C++ to Common Lisp, using Clasp then of course.
2015-05-09T04:37:01Z drmeister: I'm starting to come around to the idea
2015-05-09T04:37:37Z beach: There are definitely the possibility of a few papers in there, so it might be worth a year or so of work.
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2015-05-09T05:26:48Z beach: Here is an idea as an alternative to named lambdas and similar ilk.  In addition to a mapping from names to functions, the environment could contain an inverse mapping from functions to names.  If the environment is manipulated through a well-defined protocol, maintaining the inverse mapping should be straightforward.
2015-05-09T05:27:48Z beach: Then, functions can have different names in different environments.  And functions can have multiple names.  Also, a function would get a name just be being associated with a name through the use of (SETF FDEFINITION).
2015-05-09T05:28:25Z beach: In fact, I think I will try to implement this idea in the first-class global environments of SICL.
2015-05-09T05:28:43Z pjb: Might not be too useful, IMO.
2015-05-09T05:28:57Z beach: Right.  Stupid idea.  Now I go think of something else.
2015-05-09T05:29:06Z pjb: Or, perhaps, for debugging.
2015-05-09T05:29:20Z pjb: Then you also want to recover useful names for local functions.
2015-05-09T05:29:32Z beach: I do prefer my backtraces to all say LAMBDA.
2015-05-09T05:29:32Z pjb: and for methods.
2015-05-09T05:29:52Z pjb: might be nice: lambda bound to f or to *f*.
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2015-05-09T05:33:24Z beach thinks working in Common Lisp requires a lot of self-motivation.  Luckily, he has lots of it.
2015-05-09T05:33:48Z pjb: Why do you say so? CL is interesting.
2015-05-09T05:34:21Z beach: I think you know.
2015-05-09T05:35:37Z Quadrescence: Need so much motivation to tolerate those damn logical pathnames!
2015-05-09T05:36:06Z pjb: Those who don't like logical pathnames only misunderstand them.
2015-05-09T05:36:37Z Quadrescence: Or they're not running VAX VMS. ;)
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2015-05-09T05:36:48Z pjb: No.
2015-05-09T05:36:58Z pjb: That's the point of logical pathname: that you don't run on VMS>
2015-05-09T05:37:18Z Quadrescence: Ostensibly.
2015-05-09T05:38:30Z Quadrescence: I'm just poking fun. :)
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2015-05-09T05:40:42Z Quadrescence: Logical pathnames and the pretty printer are easy targets for poking and punchlines.
2015-05-09T05:41:30Z beach: Quadrescence: I haven't attempted to look at logical pathnames for SICL yet, so I don't have an opinion at this point.  I'll let you know once I get to that point.
2015-05-09T05:42:12Z Quadrescence: beach, There was a bit of a discussion about them today. Xach put me in my place a little bit for mischaracterizing the non-usefulness of logical pathnames.
2015-05-09T05:42:38Z beach: Ah, good! :)  I'll check the logs later.
2015-05-09T05:43:14Z Quadrescence: My public shame is summarized by this diff https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/illogical-pathnames/commits/85e5eb96fbcb9fceef5c2f89c32248784529581f
2015-05-09T05:44:10Z beach: Heh!  Nice!
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2015-05-09T05:58:52Z Fare: Quadrescence, see also uiop:resolve-location
2015-05-09T05:59:15Z Fare: although it is not currently extensible.
2015-05-09T05:59:29Z Fare: but before 3.2 would be a good time to make it so
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2015-05-09T07:21:06Z jackdaniel: what should (format t "~1f" 3.14) print?
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2015-05-09T07:24:16Z jackdaniel: and, if 3, then what should print (format t "~1f" 0.14) ; "." or rather 1
2015-05-09T07:25:44Z beach: jackdaniel: 22.3.3.1 says "Exactly w characters will be output"
2015-05-09T07:26:06Z beach: So I think that means that the first example should print 3.
2015-05-09T07:26:25Z jackdaniel: and the second? (cmucl format and deriveratives doesn't handle width = 1)
2015-05-09T07:26:51Z beach: For the second, I would go for 0.
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2015-05-09T07:27:04Z jackdaniel: "0"°
2015-05-09T07:27:10Z beach: Oh, hold on...
2015-05-09T07:27:17Z beach: There is a clause in 22.3.3.1
2015-05-09T07:27:50Z beach: "If it is impossible to print the value in the required format in a field of width w, then one of two actions is taken. If the parameter overflowchar is supplied, then w copies of that parameter are printed instead of the scaled value of arg. If the overflowchar parameter is omitted, then the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed."
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2015-05-09T07:28:27Z jackdaniel: cmucl does the latter
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2015-05-09T07:28:54Z beach: Well, in your example, there is no overflowchar parameter, so the latter is the only option.
2015-05-09T07:29:00Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-05-09T07:29:16Z beach: And you can argue that at least 3 characters are needed to print this value.
2015-05-09T07:29:27Z jackdaniel: so I'll probably leave it that way (even for first example)
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2015-05-09T07:29:47Z jackdaniel: 2 characters are sufficient, since ".1" is valid
2015-05-09T07:29:49Z beach: I would then change what I said to 3.1 and 0.1.
2015-05-09T07:29:57Z beach: Oh, right.
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2015-05-09T07:30:53Z jackdaniel: and "3." is also valid, right?
2015-05-09T07:30:58Z beach: No.
2015-05-09T07:31:02Z beach: It means something different.
2015-05-09T07:31:25Z beach: It means the integer 3, always in base 10.
2015-05-09T07:31:35Z jackdaniel: ok, so "3.1" and ".1"
2015-05-09T07:31:40Z beach: Yeah.
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2015-05-09T07:32:13Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-05-09T07:32:26Z beach: Pleasure.
2015-05-09T07:33:00Z beach: Could you do me a favor?  Check whether such cases are tested for in the ANSI test suite, and if not, add those cases?
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2015-05-09T07:33:27Z jackdaniel: ok, should i do pull request to you, or original repo?
2015-05-09T07:33:42Z jackdaniel: (in case of it not being covered)
2015-05-09T07:33:45Z beach: Hmm.
2015-05-09T07:33:50Z beach: I have write permission to both.
2015-05-09T07:34:05Z beach: But I guess to me, so that I am sure to get it.
2015-05-09T07:34:26Z beach: Then I can push to the original repo.
2015-05-09T07:34:30Z jackdaniel: ok, but it has to wait in queue till I fix format (:
2015-05-09T07:34:36Z beach: No rush.
2015-05-09T07:35:14Z beach: It's just that it is exactly this kind of thing that should trigger an update of the ANSI test suite.  Too good not to profit from.
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2015-05-09T07:37:10Z beach: OK, so I added a new generic function FUNCTION-NAMES to the protocol for first-class global environments in SICL, and I added a method for it for the SIMPLE-ENVIRONMENT incarnation of the protocol.
2015-05-09T07:37:19Z protist: is there any parallel variant of `loop'?
2015-05-09T07:37:47Z protist: if not someone should make one....could be based off of `pmap' from lparallel
2015-05-09T07:38:30Z jackdaniel: I think loop is sufficiently unelligible to add to it parallelism
2015-05-09T07:38:58Z jackdaniel: unintelligible°
2015-05-09T07:39:03Z protist: jackdaniel: could just call it `ploop'....inside it would use (pmap 'nil...or something
2015-05-09T07:39:14Z protist: jackdaniel: not saying it would work all the time
2015-05-09T07:39:24Z beach: protist: Write it, submit it to Quicklisp.
2015-05-09T07:39:33Z protist: beach: thinking about it :)
2015-05-09T07:39:45Z protist: beach: working on a different lib at the moment :)
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2015-05-09T08:07:07Z jackdaniel: hehe, DO NOT EVEN THINK OF ATTEMPTING TO UNDERSTAND THIS CODE WITHOUT READING
2015-05-09T08:07:08Z jackdaniel: THE PAPER!
2015-05-09T08:07:15Z jackdaniel: comment from sourcecode
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2015-05-09T08:07:37Z beach: What code?  I recognize that.
2015-05-09T08:07:50Z jackdaniel: CMU-CL format (on float-string function)
2015-05-09T08:08:15Z beach: Is it the paper by what's his name again: David Gay?
2015-05-09T08:08:23Z beach: No, I am misremembering.
2015-05-09T08:08:37Z jackdaniel: Steele and White
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2015-05-09T08:08:52Z jackdaniel: "How to Print Floating-Point Numbers Accurately"
2015-05-09T08:08:55Z beach: Right.
2015-05-09T08:09:27Z jackdaniel: I think I probably should listen to the author and print damn thing to read it ^_^
2015-05-09T08:09:38Z beach: It is well worth reading.
2015-05-09T08:09:57Z jackdaniel: that's why I'm printing it right now :)
2015-05-09T08:10:32Z jackdaniel: o, there is also a followup (I think) - "Printing Floating-Point Numbers Quickly and Accurately"
2015-05-09T08:10:40Z beach: I remembered right.  Also read: David M. Gay: Correctly Rounded Binary-Decimal and Decimal-Binary Conversions.
2015-05-09T08:11:23Z beach: You will find references in there to Steele & White as well as to Clinger.
2015-05-09T08:12:51Z jackdaniel: ok, so see you later (unless my brain gets overloaded by these three ^_^)
2015-05-09T08:13:05Z beach: OK. :)
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2015-05-09T08:19:06Z protist: if I do (for x in y with v = (f x).....it seems x is unbound at the time I get to (f x)
2015-05-09T08:19:14Z protist: because x seems to be nil at that point
2015-05-09T08:19:19Z protist: is there a clean way around this?
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2015-05-09T08:20:35Z Shinmera: Don't use with and use LET instead.
2015-05-09T08:20:42Z protist: Shinmera: ah ok thank you
2015-05-09T08:20:50Z protist: Shinmera: wondered if there was another way :p
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2015-05-09T08:33:46Z Shinmera: protist: Actually I read your example wrong. Just do (.. with v = (f (car y)) ..). In LOOP all variables are bound "at the same time", so there's no way to access a variable clause that appears earlier in your form.
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2015-05-09T08:35:46Z protist: Shinmera: maybe you read it wrong this time :p...I am confused by what you mean now :p
2015-05-09T08:36:15Z protist: Shinmera: I want (loop for x in y with v = (f x) ...)
2015-05-09T08:36:27Z Shinmera: I did not. Your example works if you do (loop for x in y with v = (f (car y)) ..)
2015-05-09T08:36:54Z protist: Shinmera: so y changes locally?
2015-05-09T08:37:03Z Shinmera: ?
2015-05-09T08:37:03Z protist: Shinmera: that is interesting :)
2015-05-09T08:37:06Z Shinmera: What?
2015-05-09T08:37:28Z protist: Shinmera: oh
2015-05-09T08:37:44Z protist: Shinmera: I want v to be `f' of the /current/ x
2015-05-09T08:37:44Z Shinmera: WITH introduces a variable that is only set once, at the beginning of the loop.
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2015-05-09T08:38:03Z Shinmera: (loop for x in y for v = (f x) ..)
2015-05-09T08:38:05Z protist: Shinmera: ok...so it seems WITH will not do what I want :)
2015-05-09T08:38:20Z protist: Shinmera: I can just do another for like that?
2015-05-09T08:38:24Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-05-09T08:38:29Z protist: Shinmera: thank you :)
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2015-05-09T08:39:58Z protist: Shinmera: very clean! :)
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2015-05-09T09:56:05Z beach: Shinmera: It is too bad that you have so little time, and that you are not (currently) interested in implementing Common Lisp systems. :)
2015-05-09T09:56:22Z Shinmera: beach: I know.
2015-05-09T09:59:36Z protist: Shinmera: what are you interested in right now?
2015-05-09T10:00:20Z Shinmera: A lot of things, none of which I have the time to focus on.
2015-05-09T10:00:39Z Shinmera: I need to study for university and work for my job. Not much time left for much else.
2015-05-09T10:01:19Z protist: Shinmera: full time work?
2015-05-09T10:01:33Z protist: Shinmera: I study...but I only work like 10 hours a week :p
2015-05-09T10:01:42Z Shinmera: No, I couldn't afford that with university.
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2015-05-09T10:48:26Z hitecnologys: What is the recommended way (redefine MAKE-INSTANCE?) to make sure instance of some class is never created (i.e. define abstract class) and is it even a good idea to do so?
2015-05-09T10:49:18Z hitecnologys: Or should I rather define class ABSTRACT and then inherit it?
2015-05-09T10:49:36Z beach: You can't redefine MAKE-INSTANCE directly.
2015-05-09T10:50:25Z beach: hitecnologys: gilberth wrote something like that for McCLIM.  Let me dig it up for you...
2015-05-09T10:50:26Z hitecnologys: Why not? Can't I just write (defmethod make-instance ((class some-class)) (error "Not allowed"))?
2015-05-09T10:50:35Z pjb: It is not a good idea to do so. Just document the class.
2015-05-09T10:51:01Z beach: hitecnologys: That would make it impossible to instantiate subclasses as well.
2015-05-09T10:51:09Z hitecnologys: Ah.
2015-05-09T10:51:13Z pjb: (defclass abstract-class () ((abstract :initform (error "abstract-class should not be instanciated"))))
2015-05-09T10:51:32Z pjb: (declass concrete-class (abstract-class) (abstract :initform nil))
2015-05-09T10:51:36Z pjb: f
2015-05-09T10:51:44Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-05-09T10:52:11Z hitecnologys: Well, then I'll just make note in :documentation and simply rely on user's sanity. Thanks.
2015-05-09T10:52:31Z pjb: But you can use the abstract slot trick above, if you have crazy users.
2015-05-09T10:53:33Z beach: hitecnologys: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((object abstract-class) &key) (when (eq (class-of object)) (find-class 'abstract-class)) (error ...))
2015-05-09T10:53:34Z hitecnologys: I doubt so. Currently I'm the only user and I don't except people unfamiliar with the language at least on above basic level to use it.
2015-05-09T10:54:14Z beach: hitecnologys: The trick is to check whether (CLASS-OF OBJECT) is the abstract class.
2015-05-09T10:54:23Z hitecnologys: beach: oh, haven't thought of that.
2015-05-09T10:55:34Z pjb: The abstract slot trick works with structures too.
2015-05-09T10:55:46Z beach: hitecnologys: If you look in protocol-classes.lisp in the McCLIM repository, you can see that gilberth wrapped everything in a macro called DEFINE-PROTOCOL-CLASS.
2015-05-09T10:56:36Z hitecnologys: beach: will do.
2015-05-09T10:57:02Z beach: Hmm, copyright says moore33, but I am fairly sure gilberth did the protocol-class stuff.
2015-05-09T10:58:02Z hitecnologys: Alright, I think I've got about enough information for now. Again, thanks anyone for help.
2015-05-09T10:58:09Z hitecnologys is back to coding
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2015-05-09T11:00:37Z nyef: Wait, what? There's something in McCLIM to prevent directly instantiating protocol classes?
2015-05-09T11:00:48Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-09T11:01:18Z nyef: My take on the whole protocol class thing was that it's more "don't do this" than "throw an error if anyone does this".
2015-05-09T11:01:54Z nyef: Next you'll be telling me that some of the mixin classes can't be independently instantiated, either.
2015-05-09T11:02:26Z beach: I don't know about the mixin classes.
2015-05-09T11:02:54Z beach: Instantiating a protocol class would likely have signaled an error ultimately anyway.
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2015-05-09T11:03:11Z beach: Like NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD.
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2015-05-09T11:07:44Z pjb: You can use #+debugging: (declass concrete-class (abstract-class) (#+debugging(abstract :initform nil)))
2015-05-09T11:08:04Z pjb: and (defclass abstract-class () (#+debugging (abstract :initform (error "abstract-class should not be instanciated"))))
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2015-05-09T11:11:17Z nyef: I agree that instantiating a protocol (or mixin) class directly and then using it has a very good chance at causing problems, but going out of your way to make merely instantiating it fail seems a bit much.
2015-05-09T11:11:48Z nyef: At a certain point, you might as well trust your users.
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2015-05-09T11:12:21Z pjb: The good alternative is just to avoid writing non-functional abstract classes.  Write generalizations that can be used in their own generalized terms.  This will help you debug and develop incrementally.
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2015-05-09T11:52:50Z mood: Is there a mirror somewhere of the three files the ECL build process tries to download on 'make check' ? They link to sourceforge but redirect to a 404 on common-lisp.net
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2015-05-09T11:57:13Z jackdaniel: mood: https://github.com/robert-strandh/ansi-cl-tests
2015-05-09T11:57:29Z jackdaniel: ansi-tests were based on this
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2015-05-09T11:59:54Z mood: jackdaniel: Thanks, I'll give it a try
2015-05-09T12:00:08Z jackdaniel: mood: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/tests/ (this is what was on webpage, but are pretty outdated)
2015-05-09T12:00:27Z jackdaniel: when I'll have some time I'll fix this *pinkiswear*
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2015-05-09T12:04:31Z jackdaniel: mood: one of the bugs is that it uses global installation of ecl, not something it has built
2015-05-09T12:09:31Z mood: jackdaniel: I believe I ran into that the last time I tried this. The tests from the github repo all seem to pass, though
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2015-05-09T12:12:11Z jackdaniel: I have uploaded a few other files which are used by make check (same url)
2015-05-09T12:12:15Z jackdaniel: all of them?
2015-05-09T12:12:47Z jackdaniel: if yes, then that's nice
2015-05-09T12:13:25Z mood: jackdaniel: It appears so. I called 'ecl -load doit.lisp' (with my new-built ecl) and after about 100 seconds I end up in a REPL
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2015-05-09T12:16:41Z mood: jackdaniel: Oh, wait, no. 57 tests failed
2015-05-09T12:17:08Z jackdaniel: that's sounds more like it :-P
2015-05-09T12:17:21Z mood: "57 out of 21719 total tests failed" was buried in between a couple of other things
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2015-05-09T12:21:49Z jackdaniel: ok, mirror pointers are fixed on develop head now
2015-05-09T12:22:03Z jackdaniel: but as I said, these might be pretty outdated
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2015-05-09T12:45:50Z jackdaniel: but ecl-curl as it seems doesn't support https prefixes
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2015-05-09T13:19:05Z protist: how would you go about defining an interface (in the /implements/ OOP sense) in CLOS?
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2015-05-09T13:20:32Z nyef: protist: With a CLIM-style "protocol class". d-:
2015-05-09T13:20:49Z protist: nyef: thank you :)
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2015-05-09T13:25:56Z brucem: the legacy of McKay lives on.
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2015-05-09T13:27:32Z protist: nyef: can you link me to something on that?
2015-05-09T13:28:19Z nyef: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/2-5.html#_23
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2015-05-09T13:32:14Z protist: nyef: thank you :)
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2015-05-09T13:46:48Z protist: nyef: this is not much documentation lol
2015-05-09T13:46:52Z protist: nyef: still confused
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2015-05-09T13:55:44Z madnificent: is there a defacto standard library in quicklisp for converting between dasherized variables to camel-case, or should I write a tiny ad-hoc thing for my case?
2015-05-09T13:57:08Z Shinmera: qtools can do it, but that's a large library to load for that.
2015-05-09T13:57:33Z nyef: Sounds like the sort of thing that might be in alexandria?
2015-05-09T13:58:19Z Shinmera: Alexandria doesn't have that from what I know.
2015-05-09T13:58:38Z Shinmera: madnificent: https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/toolkit.lisp#L163
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2015-05-09T13:58:43Z madnificent: nyef: that was my first guess indeed, but it doesn't look like it
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2015-05-09T13:59:29Z Shinmera: Not exactly the best way to write that I now notice.
2015-05-09T13:59:33Z Shinmera: Ah well.
2015-05-09T13:59:50Z madnificent: Shinmera: it's not a complex thing, and that snippet is understandable too.
2015-05-09T13:59:55Z Shinmera 's sins of his past will never stop.
2015-05-09T14:00:31Z madnificent: I haven't studied the Artistic License yet, so I'll quickly roll my own
2015-05-09T14:00:33Z madnificent: thanks
2015-05-09T14:00:46Z Shinmera: Artistic means "Do whatever, but if you modify it, rename it."
2015-05-09T14:00:58Z Shinmera: as in, rename the project.
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2015-05-09T14:03:47Z protist: nyef: ah...I think I have my problem figured out
2015-05-09T14:04:18Z protist: nyef: I need to make the different things use the same superclass as an interface
2015-05-09T14:04:31Z protist: nyef: then I can have methods that use the same superclass
2015-05-09T14:04:59Z protist: nyef: and those methods will use methods that dispatch to the generic methods of the other classes
2015-05-09T14:05:03Z protist: nyef: something like that anyways
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2015-05-09T14:21:02Z schjetne: madnificent: one of the JSON libraries does that, I believe
2015-05-09T14:21:10Z schjetne: CL-JSON, I think
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2015-05-09T14:31:32Z Bike: there's stuff for it in cffi also.
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2015-05-09T14:40:54Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-09T14:48:32Z scoofy: hello
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2015-05-09T14:53:33Z failproofshark: how goes it scoofy
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2015-05-09T15:23:28Z madnificent: schjetne: that's the only reference I found.  also doesn't feel right to include though.  it's just 12loc to write though.
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2015-05-09T15:46:28Z something1: did someone remember how to configure emacs to accept accents (for example spanish). I remember xach has some tip about adding some command or hoo to .emacs but I can find it.
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2015-05-09T15:50:32Z nyef: "accept"? I use the rfc1345 input method for that kind of thing.
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2015-05-09T15:51:25Z nyef: C-\ rfc1345 RET, and then ampersand starts a character composition sequence.
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2015-05-09T15:52:08Z nyef: (That might not be what you want, of course, but digging deeper into it might lead you to something useful.)
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2015-05-09T16:22:40Z something1: I posted the question in #emacs, and received good advice. Bye to all Lispers.
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2015-05-09T17:40:16Z linux_dream: hi coders. Anyone is familiar with "sawfish" window manager? Apparently some of its code is written in lisp and it's supposed to be "emacs-like" in use. I'm watching the code in github but I've no idea on how to install it
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2015-05-09T17:55:16Z schjetne: linux_dream: I never used GNOME 1, but isn't Sawfish a pretty standard window manager?
2015-05-09T17:56:04Z schjetne: If you want Emacs-like behaviour, have you tried StumpWM?
2015-05-09T17:56:06Z linux_dream: I don't really know.
2015-05-09T17:56:12Z linux_dream: no I haven't
2015-05-09T17:56:23Z linux_dream: I just wanted to try it for fun, I'm not "fluent" in emacs either
2015-05-09T17:57:37Z linux_dream: I see no indication on how to install it in the official website nor in github.  in Lubuntu the version 1.5 appears in the software center but version 1.9 is already from 2012 I think and the code has changed quite a lot I guess since 1.5
2015-05-09T17:58:14Z schjetne: Did you check the file named INSTALL?
2015-05-09T17:58:32Z schjetne: https://github.com/SawfishWM/sawfish/blob/master/INSTALL
2015-05-09T17:59:28Z linux_dream: oops no.  I checked the read me
2015-05-09T17:59:31Z linux_dream: thanks
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2015-05-09T18:09:37Z nyef: Why would you read anything other than the README in a project on github?
2015-05-09T18:10:01Z nyef: The README always, always explains how to install it.
2015-05-09T18:10:17Z nyef: (Doesn't necessarily apply elsewhere, but does for github projects.)
2015-05-09T18:10:43Z linux_dream: well not this one apparently: https://github.com/SawfishWM/sawfish/blob/master/README
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2015-05-09T18:11:07Z nyef: (It's probably something in the github kool-ade.)
2015-05-09T18:11:23Z linux_dream: the installation instruction was in the "INSTALL" file.
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2015-05-09T18:31:47Z Xach: sawfish uses/used librep as its lisp, iirc. it was kind of neat.
2015-05-09T18:32:02Z phf: oh man sawfish, i have a folder full of gaudy Enlightenment style screenshots of sawfish from the early days of linux on desktop. it uses librep though, an embeddable toy lisp
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2015-05-09T18:36:44Z Xach: i played with librep a little before using common lisp
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2015-05-09T18:42:05Z phf: it was probably my first lisp, though i've never tried using it separately from sawfish
2015-05-09T18:45:31Z nyef: ... I think that my first lisp might have been Applesoft LOGO.
2015-05-09T18:45:32Z Fare: if you have asdf 3.1, maybe quicklisp can download code using a web client written in lisp, using run-program, and that client can do checksums with ironclad to ensure integrity
2015-05-09T18:46:02Z Fare: then comes the issue of ensuring the integrity of the initial client itself
2015-05-09T18:47:03Z Fare: it could be the lisp equivalent of a shar...
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2015-05-09T18:48:26Z Fare: so you download it via https and/or check it sha256 and there you bootstrapped your trust
2015-05-09T18:49:01Z mood: madnificent: There's "kebab" in QL that does that. https://github.com/pocket7878/kebab/
2015-05-09T18:50:43Z Fare: I like the name "kebab case"
2015-05-09T18:51:06Z Fare: and "snake case" is I suppose a reference to the Little Prince
2015-05-09T18:54:53Z Fare: nyef: my first lisp was HP28 RPL
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2015-05-09T19:00:03Z Fare: or then again, you could assume presence of PGP for verification, used through run-program
2015-05-09T19:00:59Z Quadrescence: Fare, Why does a company with an academic elite like Google not provide a very fundamental object such as a formal grammar for a core piece of infrastructure like Protocol Buffers?
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2015-05-09T19:03:04Z linux_dream: well I'm still fighting to install sawfish. tons and tons of dependencies to satisfies.  I've get to guess which lib is missing , etc.  build libs from scratch, etc.  stuck for now... painful
2015-05-09T19:03:26Z Fare: Quadrescence: because the company is american, not french
2015-05-09T19:03:37Z Quadrescence: :/
2015-05-09T19:04:38Z Fare: i.e. it has this culture of "empower engineers with little interest in theory to reach the low-hanging fruits as fast as possible, then whatever hack they come up with becomes legacy"
2015-05-09T19:05:21Z Fare: yet, Google is certainly not the worst in this genre, far from it.
2015-05-09T19:06:03Z phf: nyef: i used a russian localized version of it at some point. it ran on some apple ii clone, probably "Agat" and all the keywords were in russian. in fact i don't think there was any way to even type latin
2015-05-09T19:07:23Z Fare: certainly, a french company with a culture of "get a perfect jewel, don't worry enough about the low-hanging fruits or the deadlines, never become profitable, be taxed to death if you somehow are" isn't necessarily all the better.
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2015-05-09T19:09:13Z Fare: Quadrescence, in the protobuf genre, I liked piqi.
2015-05-09T19:09:37Z phf: well, "used". it was part of compsci curriculum at certain specialized highschools..
2015-05-09T19:10:04Z Fare: nice
2015-05-09T19:10:35Z zacts: I took a couple of latin courses in middle school
2015-05-09T19:10:44Z zacts: this was in early 2000s or so
2015-05-09T19:12:34Z Fare: back in high-school, I wanted programming language that would understand singular and plural properly and would use latin for the international standard version of the keywords.
2015-05-09T19:13:17Z zacts: is there something like the scsh, but implemented in common lisp? (a CL equivalent to bash)
2015-05-09T19:13:22Z zacts: (or scsh, actually)
2015-05-09T19:13:57Z Fare: zacts: SLIME + inferior-shell gets you pretty far.
2015-05-09T19:15:31Z zacts: ah ok
2015-05-09T19:16:00Z Fare: doesn't do everything scsh can, but most. Add iolib or sb-posix for syscall support.
2015-05-09T19:17:19Z jsnell_: Fare: http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Lingua-Romana-Perligata-0.50/lib/Lingua/Romana/Perligata.pm
2015-05-09T19:17:35Z Fare: jsnell_, yup, I know this exists.
2015-05-09T19:18:03Z linux_dream: sawfish is impossible to install.
2015-05-09T19:19:04Z zacts: ok
2015-05-09T19:19:06Z zacts: coolio
2015-05-09T19:19:09Z linux_dream: I found 1 dependency that can't be satisfied. it requires another lib which need to be compiled and installed but that lib needs another lib that needs to be compiled and install, infinitely many times
2015-05-09T19:19:10Z phf: linux_dream: this might be a "now you have two problems" solution, but you could try installing it via pkgsrc, if it's not available in your system's packages
2015-05-09T19:19:14Z zacts: heh, perligata is so funny
2015-05-09T19:19:19Z zacts: damian is crazy mad
2015-05-09T19:19:25Z zacts: he even did Regexp::Debugger
2015-05-09T19:19:35Z zacts: the source code to that has the largest functional regex I've ever seen
2015-05-09T19:19:55Z linux_dream: phf yeah the only solution would be to install it from the official repository. the problem is that it seems older than 2012 (way older than that)
2015-05-09T19:19:55Z Fare: If you could make a programming language where programmers could write in english, you'd find that most people can't write english. — "Masoud Pirnazar" <amp.xnospam@apptek.com> on comp.lang.lisp 2001-10-12
2015-05-09T19:20:21Z linux_dream: the current code contains lots of code in Julia which was invented in 2009 so I am guessing that the sawfish in the official repository has very few to see with the new one
2015-05-09T19:20:45Z nyef: IIRC, there actually is a programming language out there literally called "english".
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2015-05-09T19:22:32Z Fare: they program brains with it. Millions of brains.
2015-05-09T19:22:45Z jonh:  hehe
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2015-05-09T19:24:58Z phf: linux_dream: that's not julia, that's librep, i guess they use the same extension (.jl)
2015-05-09T19:25:19Z Fare: programmers who use English are those who make the most money, too.
2015-05-09T19:26:10Z phf: linux_dream: pkgsrc's package http://pkgsrc.se/wm/sawfish uses http://download.tuxfamily.org/sawfish/ as their master, with the latest release from nov2014
2015-05-09T19:27:13Z linux_dream: yeah that's the code I'm trying to compile
2015-05-09T19:27:50Z linux_dream: it's basically impossible.  one need: 1)Too many dependencies.  2)Bleeding edge dependencies that require bleeding edges dependencies
2015-05-09T19:28:04Z linux_dream: it's exponential
2015-05-09T19:28:33Z linux_dream: it's like you want to take a leaf from a tree but it's too hard to detach.  you have to remove the whole tree with the roots, etc
2015-05-09T19:28:52Z C-Keen: why not use pkgsrc to build it? It's self contained and will run on any unixish os?
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2015-05-09T19:29:44Z linux_dream: good idea, I didn't know that
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2015-05-09T19:30:21Z C-Keen: it may take a while though, since it will build *all* dependencies itself
2015-05-09T19:30:36Z Fare: NixOS to the rescue?
2015-05-09T19:30:41Z C-Keen: which includes the compiler etc
2015-05-09T19:30:46Z linux_dream: the download button leads to error 404 though
2015-05-09T19:31:00Z Fare: nixos has a package for sawfish
2015-05-09T19:31:21Z Fare: did I rave on how noone should settle for anything less than nixos, yet?
2015-05-09T19:32:35Z linux_dream: link please Fare?  I can't find it
2015-05-09T19:33:07Z Fare: http://monitor.nixos.org/pd?p=sawfish
2015-05-09T19:33:23Z Fare: http://nixos.org/
2015-05-09T19:33:24Z linux_dream: thanks a lot
2015-05-09T19:33:54Z linux_dream: hmm sorry but that's a snapshot from github?
2015-05-09T19:33:55Z phf: Fare: you use it as your primary system or as a source of extra packages?
2015-05-09T19:34:27Z Fare: then there's the guy trying to use guile scheme as a frontend to the same technology instead of a collection of shell scripts tied together by an ad hoc lazy functional language -- http://www.gnu.org/software/guix/
2015-05-09T19:34:40Z Fare: phf: primary system at home.
2015-05-09T19:35:00Z Fare: at work, gotta use ubuntu as the work-curated system
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2015-05-09T19:35:16Z Fare: though I'm thinking of using nixos of extra packages there
2015-05-09T19:37:01Z phf: hmm, i might give it a try. i use pkgsrc, but it's not very upgrade friendly (or rather i'm mostly just scared of upgrading packages with it for whatever reason)
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2015-05-09T19:37:43Z Fare: nixos is *very* upgrade and downgrade friendly
2015-05-09T19:38:30Z phf: is it ocaml or somesuch?
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2015-05-09T19:53:15Z Fare: nix uses it own language, implemented in C++.
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2015-05-09T19:53:56Z Fare: It has lazy evaluation and first-class environments (iiuc)
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2015-05-09T20:07:38Z zacts: there is guix
2015-05-09T20:07:42Z zacts: based on nix
2015-05-09T20:07:51Z zacts: it uses guile scheme though
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2015-05-09T20:48:10Z digiorgi: I read that when you write a macro you should not make any side effects... but i see in the library hunchentoot it does that
2015-05-09T20:50:29Z akkad: isn't that a scheme view of macros?
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2015-05-09T20:51:20Z digiorgi: i read in onlisp that a macro can be executed more than once when compiling
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2015-05-09T20:56:10Z phf: digiorgi: there are basic rules of macro writing, if you know them well you will _eventually_ also know how and where to violate them.
2015-05-09T20:57:06Z phf: hunchentoot uses a pretty established pattern: a macro that lets you define a handler and then registers that handler with some registry
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2015-05-09T20:58:17Z phf: as long as future registry entries overwrite previous registry entries that share the same designator, you macro is reentrant
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2015-05-09T22:06:53Z Xach: madnificent: cl-recaptcha does not build right now, missing SPLIT-SEQUENCE
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2015-05-09T22:41:03Z madnificent: Xach: I didn't study the pull request enough, it seems.  Should build on current master.
2015-05-09T22:41:50Z madnificent should go over that code and clean it up if he finds the time to do so.
2015-05-09T22:42:17Z madnificent: Xach: thanks for the heads up
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2015-05-09T23:01:34Z drmeister: What's the best hyperspec browser for emacs?
2015-05-09T23:01:54Z drmeister: I'm fed up with Safari wiping out my bookmarks
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