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2015-05-08T01:17:05Z katco: is anyone familiar with Go and CL? i have a comparative question.
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2015-05-08T01:18:53Z Xach only knows CL
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2015-05-08T01:19:10Z katco: Xach! while you're here: ty for quicklisp! :)
2015-05-08T01:19:28Z Xach: no problem
2015-05-08T01:19:41Z Xach has felt energized to work on more quicklisp stuff since ELS
2015-05-08T01:20:03Z katco: i read your synopsis... i was actually in the area, but didn't figure out ELS was going on in time to attend
2015-05-08T01:20:11Z pinterface1: katco: CL is much nicer than Go. ;)
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2015-05-08T01:20:29Z katco: pinterface1: haha. i am still exploring CL, so i have yet to make that determination :)
2015-05-08T01:20:40Z katco: although i enjoy the expressiveness of CL much more than Go
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2015-05-08T01:22:31Z Fare: Xach: what's your plan re: ssl ?
2015-05-08T01:24:00Z Xach: Fare: Will probably initially support implementations that provide ssl support with the runtime. Right now that's just commercial implementations. After that we'll see.
2015-05-08T01:24:49Z Xach: My hope is that hookable fetching will make it possible, if not seamless, to use some other technique to get https support, like cl+ssl or using another process.
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2015-05-08T01:28:12Z Fare is reminded that bad old asdf-install had gpg support for authenticating packages.
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2015-05-08T01:29:41Z Xach: I patched it out locally. I always chose the "install anyway" restart.
2015-05-08T01:30:08Z Xach: I wonder how that worked on the windows asdf-install.
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2015-05-08T01:39:16Z Fare: not sure windows was ever well supported, at least outside cygwin.
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2015-05-08T01:43:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: katco, If you like Go,  you might like this. https://github.com/zkat/chanl/
2015-05-08T01:43:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: "In a nutshell, you create various threads sequentially executing tasks you need done, and use channel objects to communicate and synchronize the state of these threads."
2015-05-08T01:44:23Z katco: Petit_Dejeuner: very nice! i've been wanting to implement coroutiens multiplexed across threads
2015-05-08T01:45:58Z Fare: In my experience, lparallel was more stable than chanl
2015-05-08T01:46:17Z Fare: I tried using chanl with weird race conditions.
2015-05-08T01:46:22Z Fare: on some implementations
2015-05-08T01:46:31Z Fare: don't remember if it was ccl or sbcl
2015-05-08T01:46:49Z Fare: anyway... lparallel was more robust
2015-05-08T01:46:54Z Fare: at the time
2015-05-08T01:48:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: I haven't really used chanl for anything. I just remember it being similar to Go.
2015-05-08T01:48:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: All the interesting parts of Go without a new language.
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2015-05-08T02:00:33Z aeth: If I use a symbol 'foo in a conditional (e.g. CASE) that's in a package called PACKAGE-NAME, then it seems like it assumes it's working on 'PACKAGE-NAME::FOO unless 'foo is something built into the language like '+
2015-05-08T02:01:02Z aeth: Is there any workaround for this?
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2015-05-08T02:03:30Z pjb: aeth: learn about symbols and package (read clhs).
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2015-05-08T02:03:55Z pjb: aeth: (case 'other-package:foo ((other-package:foo) 'yay) (otherwise 'nay))
2015-05-08T02:09:53Z aeth: Yes, but that's terrible. It leaks the internals of the application just so symbols can be used in CASE.
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2015-05-08T02:21:15Z Bike: you could process user symbols (find-symbol (symbol-name user-input) "WHATEVER")
2015-05-08T02:21:34Z Fare: or export a function and use cond
2015-05-08T02:21:42Z Fare: or a matcher and use optima:match
2015-05-08T02:21:57Z Fare: optima:match is great
2015-05-08T02:22:09Z Fare: it's what fare-matcher:match wanted to be
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2015-05-08T02:25:15Z Fare: any windows user who could run uiop tests on windows?
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2015-05-08T02:25:41Z PuercoPop: aeth: you can always import the symbol or just keywords.
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2015-05-08T02:29:12Z aeth: like this? (intern (symbol-name 'blah))
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2015-05-08T02:32:44Z aeth: I don't actually want 'FOO for FOO or (FOO), I just want 'FOO for a pattern in CASE (which can take any input, it has an OTHERWISE in it). Should I just work with strings instead?
2015-05-08T02:32:45Z Fare goes hunting for a VM image
2015-05-08T02:33:18Z pjb: aeth: there's no leak. You should just export your symbols.  Or use keywords, but arguments can be made against keywords.
2015-05-08T02:33:19Z Fare: aeth: what's the input of your problem?
2015-05-08T02:34:00Z pjb: aeth: if you want strings, then you should use strings.  Or (cond ((string= key 'foo) …) …)
2015-05-08T02:34:30Z pjb: but it's harder to document than using exported symbols or keywords.
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2015-05-08T02:35:12Z Fare: pjb: the ASDF test failure with clisp was due to improper use of -I
2015-05-08T02:35:24Z pjb: Who still use -I ?
2015-05-08T02:35:31Z Fare: which has more side-effects than I anticipated.
2015-05-08T02:35:39Z Fare: apparently I do
2015-05-08T02:35:48Z pjb: Fare: but my guess is that you clisp test.lisp > result ; which is bad.
2015-05-08T02:36:21Z Fare: no, I clisp -i test-support.lisp -x '(some form)'
2015-05-08T02:36:36Z PuercoPop: aeth: import as import in your defpackage form. Or just use keywords. Are you case-ing on user input?
2015-05-08T02:37:42Z aeth: What I'm trying to do is to take basically `((+ 1 2 3 4 5)) and turn it into 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5, etc., so I can use Lisp-like syntax instead of literal strings in writing GLSL shaders for cl-opengl
2015-05-08T02:38:07Z Fare: aeth: so far, so good
2015-05-08T02:38:33Z Fare: aeth: what's the big issue, then?
2015-05-08T02:38:59Z Fare: you want loop-style "looks like a keyword, but not actually package-specific" input?
2015-05-08T02:39:00Z aeth: So if I do something like `((glsl-version 330)) to compile into "#VERSION 330~%~%" it will work fine within the package, but outside of the package it's not going to work because it's testing for PACKAGE-NAME::GLSL-VERSION within the conditional
2015-05-08T02:39:05Z aeth: yes
2015-05-08T02:39:36Z Fare: then take your symbols and use find-symbol and/or intern to get the actual symbol in the actual package you want.
2015-05-08T02:39:58Z Fare: uiop:find-symbol* can be your friend.
2015-05-08T02:40:21Z aeth: intern is probably not going to be safe, given that it takes in arbitrary input because it needs to be able to have a pseudo-defun and function calls.
2015-05-08T02:40:53Z aeth: Although the intern could be placed for everything except the arbitrary symbol part, so that it's really just a syntactic shortcut for things like 'glsl-version
2015-05-08T02:41:03Z aeth: so I don't have to have a few dozen symbols exported.
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2015-05-08T02:46:12Z aeth: (intern (symbol-name 'foo)) isn't going to cause any problems if FOO doesn't do anything, will it?
2015-05-08T02:48:38Z Fare: in which package do you intern it?
2015-05-08T02:49:23Z Fare: if only known symbols are accepted, use cl:find-symbol or uiop:find-symbol*
2015-05-08T02:49:46Z Fare: if new symbols are to be accepted... intern them in some reserved package
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2015-05-08T02:52:59Z emaczen: what happens first, default-initargs or a initialize-instance, what about :before :after and :around on the initialize-instance method?
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2015-05-08T02:56:41Z PuercoPop: emaczen: same as any other method with standard-method-combination around happens before then all the before methods, then the primary one then all the after methods. Don't know aboout default-initargs but I guess that initialize-instance uses its value.
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2015-05-08T03:01:49Z emaczen: PuercoPop: with a simple test in the REPL it appears that :default-initargs does not happen before initialize-instance as I get a slot unbound error
2015-05-08T03:09:00Z emaczen: However, if I only create an :after method than the :default-initarg is bound
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2015-05-08T03:12:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-08T03:12:40Z minion: beach, memo from jackdaniel: are you going to submit http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf to https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/ ?
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2015-05-08T03:13:47Z beach: jackdaniel: Not in the state it is currently in.  There are things missing and some functions are wrong.
2015-05-08T03:15:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: is bourdeaux a big lisp hub or something?
2015-05-08T03:16:57Z beach: "Bordeaux".
2015-05-08T03:17:04Z beach: Somewhat.  Why?
2015-05-08T03:17:14Z emaczen: I'm trying to create subclasses of a class with an id and id-counter, where id-counter counts the number of initialized objects. All id-counters have :class :allocation and I am under the impression that more specific classes shadow less specific classes. So, if I gave each specific class an :initform of 0 than I would be able to count the number of instantiations of each class
2015-05-08T03:17:26Z emaczen: ^^ It is not working though... any suggestions? Is my question clear?
2015-05-08T03:17:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: beach, bordeaux threads and bordeaux in that paper that was just linked
2015-05-08T03:18:12Z beach: Yes, those both refer to the same French city.
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2015-05-08T03:19:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: emaczen, How is it not working?
2015-05-08T03:20:17Z beach: emaczen: You need to read up on now direct slots are combined into effective slots.
2015-05-08T03:20:48Z emaczen: Say I instantiate an instance of subclass B and subclass C which have superclass A. Then the IDs are 1 and 2 respectively
2015-05-08T03:21:02Z emaczen: beach: how can I query effective slots for classes in the REPL?
2015-05-08T03:21:22Z beach: mop class-slots
2015-05-08T03:21:30Z beach: No specbot again.
2015-05-08T03:21:42Z beach: Colleen: do mop class-slots
2015-05-08T03:21:42Z Colleen: I don't know what you mean, beach.
2015-05-08T03:22:01Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-slots.html
2015-05-08T03:23:02Z beach: emaczen: This is MOP stuff, so you might want to install CLOSER-MOP in order to be implementation independent.
2015-05-08T03:23:24Z emaczen: beach: (closer-mop:class-slots (find-class ...)) is telling me that my class is not yet finalized?
2015-05-08T03:23:43Z pillton: beach: Where did you get the MOP documentation from?
2015-05-08T03:23:55Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/finalize-inheritance.html
2015-05-08T03:24:26Z beach: pillton: From the AMOP.
2015-05-08T03:24:45Z pillton: beach: Is it supposed to come with a CD?
2015-05-08T03:25:19Z beach: pillton: The AMOP?  I don't think so.  Mine didn't.
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2015-05-08T03:26:46Z beach: pillton: I guess I am not quite sure what you are asking.
2015-05-08T03:27:07Z emaczen: beach: if a class is not finalized, does that just mean that I have not instantiated an instance yet?
2015-05-08T03:27:36Z pillton: beach: Where did you download the html files that define the meta object protocol.
2015-05-08T03:27:40Z beach: emaczen: Yes, if you instantiate it, it will get finalized automatically.
2015-05-08T03:28:00Z beach: pillton: I wrote them.  From the TeX source that is freely available.
2015-05-08T03:28:33Z pillton: beach: Right. Ok.
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2015-05-08T03:29:04Z beach: pillton: There was an automatically-generated HTML version of it available, but it violates the spirit of the AMOP.
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2015-05-08T03:29:38Z emaczen: beach: I instantiated an object, and I can see that I have the slots, package1::id-counter and package2::id-counter
2015-05-08T03:29:40Z beach: The AMOP says something like "If you do something with this material, please make it available according to the same conditions"
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2015-05-08T03:30:01Z pillton: beach: Is this what you are referring to? http://www.alu.org/mop/index.html
2015-05-08T03:30:20Z beach: pillton: But then they slapped a copyright on the HTML markup and specifically ruled out any modifications to it.
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2015-05-08T03:30:42Z beach: pillton: Yes, that's it.
2015-05-08T03:31:07Z beach: "This HyperText version is copyright 1997 by Elwood Corporation, and permission is granted to use it and reference it as a normal HTML document, and to make and distribute copies provided the copies are complete and unmodified."
2015-05-08T03:31:33Z beach: emaczen: These are general questions.  Please don't address me personally.
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2015-05-08T03:32:04Z beach: emaczen: I am not quite awake yet.
2015-05-08T03:32:13Z emaczen: beach: haha no worries
2015-05-08T03:32:21Z beach: So I may give you wrong answers.
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2015-05-08T03:33:06Z beach: pillton: It was one of those things that I wanted to improve, so I took the "write one page per day" approach.
2015-05-08T03:33:07Z emaczen: beach: thanks, I solved my problem by noticing that the package is part of the name of a variable so I was not correctly shadowing
2015-05-08T03:33:16Z emaczen: I noticed this via closer:mop
2015-05-08T03:33:29Z beach: emaczen: Great!  You learned something today.
2015-05-08T03:33:38Z pillton: beach: Ok. It would be cool to integrate the mop documentation with M-x slime-documentation-lookup.
2015-05-08T03:33:53Z beach: pillton: I'll let someone else do that.
2015-05-08T03:34:56Z pillton: beach: No worries. Did you finish converting it to HTML?
2015-05-08T03:35:06Z beach: pillton: Since they didn't allow modifications, I figured the best strategy would be to make their document obsolete.
2015-05-08T03:35:25Z beach: Yes, yes, it's done.  Modulo error reports.
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2015-05-08T03:35:42Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/table-of-contents.html
2015-05-08T03:35:52Z beach: It is way more complete than the previous one.
2015-05-08T03:36:12Z beach: Check this one for instance: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/graph.png
2015-05-08T03:36:15Z pillton: It might be worth adding a index.html.
2015-05-08T03:36:29Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/all.html
2015-05-08T03:36:34Z beach: That one ^?
2015-05-08T03:36:50Z beach: Or an index of all terms and such?
2015-05-08T03:37:13Z pillton: When you go to http://meatmodule.com/CLOS-MOP/ I get a 403 Forbidden error.
2015-05-08T03:37:42Z beach: Hold on...
2015-05-08T03:37:58Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html
2015-05-08T03:38:02Z beach: That's the start page.
2015-05-08T03:40:46Z pillton: I think http://metamodule.com/CLOS-MOP/ will be the first thing they will try if people see a link in this channel to your MOP documentation and want to know where the "Top" of the documentation is.
2015-05-08T03:41:17Z beach: I don't know what to do about that.  Put an index.html in there?
2015-05-08T03:41:40Z pillton: Can you symlink it to the "Top" page?
2015-05-08T03:41:55Z beach: and name it index.hml?
2015-05-08T03:42:09Z beach: I don't know.  All I have is an ftp interface to it.
2015-05-08T03:42:24Z pillton: I guess so (index.html, not index.hml).
2015-05-08T03:42:42Z beach: Yeah.  Like I said, not quite awake yet.
2015-05-08T03:43:21Z pillton: If you can't, copying the file is sufficient.
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2015-05-08T03:46:38Z beach: pillton: There you go.
2015-05-08T03:47:43Z pillton: beach: Thank you (and thank you for doing the transcription).
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2015-05-08T03:47:51Z beach: Sure.
2015-05-08T03:49:10Z beach: pillton: I created this site because It was too painful to write SICL CLOS without it.  Continuing the development of this site is not my main activity.  I will take contributions in the form of an index, but I don't think I will work on one myself.
2015-05-08T03:49:38Z beach: An index could be created just like the rest, i.e. one entry per day.
2015-05-08T03:50:09Z pillton: beach: When I said index, I was referring to index.html, not a book index. My apologies for the confusion.
2015-05-08T03:50:19Z beach: Oh, OK.
2015-05-08T03:50:58Z beach: Consider it done, then. :)
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2015-05-08T03:51:50Z beach: If specbot is going to be away often, we should ask Shinmera to teach Colleen how to access it.
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2015-05-08T03:53:49Z pillton: A command line version of it would be good too. :)
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2015-05-08T03:55:26Z pillton: Specbot is great.
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2015-05-08T04:02:37Z beach: Here is another document someone might want to work on in the "one page per day" spirit: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html
2015-05-08T04:02:50Z beach: It's a bit more complicated because it requires some design.
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2015-05-08T04:57:41Z kami: Good morning #lisp
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2015-05-08T05:00:30Z beach: Hello kami!
2015-05-08T05:01:06Z kami: I am a bit at loss with this style guide: http://labs.ariel-networks.com/cl-style-guide.html
2015-05-08T05:01:49Z kami: The One package per one file section states that I should declare a package in each file.
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2015-05-08T05:02:55Z beach: kami: Just because it is a widely-available HTML document doesn't mean it contains opinions that are widely agreed upon.
2015-05-08T05:03:10Z kami: By doing so and naming each package the same as the file name, I would 'pollute' the package 'namespace' wouldn't I?
2015-05-08T05:03:17Z kami: beach: that's understood
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2015-05-08T05:03:33Z beach: kami: It is frequent to have several files that contribute code in the same package.
2015-05-08T05:04:05Z beach: But the reason is not that it would create many packages.
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2015-05-08T05:04:39Z kami: I just would like to contribute an sftp extension to eudoxia's http://github.com/eudoxia0/trivial-ssh and s/he seems to follow that advice.
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2015-05-08T05:05:26Z beach: kami: A package should be a unit of namespace with some meaning.
2015-05-08T05:05:34Z kami looked up the real name and removes 's/'
2015-05-08T05:06:16Z beach: If you want to contribute to some software, I suggest you follow the style guide that the author follows.
2015-05-08T05:06:17Z Bike: this trivial-ssh code doesn't use one package per file, so this is probably not a relevant guide. check libssh2/
2015-05-08T05:06:30Z beach: kami: Or else, your contribution my be rejected for that reason.
2015-05-08T05:08:02Z kami: Bike: I was surprised to not find a 'package(s).lisp' file, then started to search, found a statement from him about following that style guide on this channel
2015-05-08T05:08:08Z beach: kami: Surrounding class names with "<>" is a style that was borrowed from Dylan.
2015-05-08T05:08:16Z beach: kami: It is not recommended for Common Lisp.
2015-05-08T05:08:25Z kami: Then I looked into his other code, and found e.g. this: https://github.com/eudoxia0/crane/blob/master/src/migration.lisp
2015-05-08T05:08:29Z Bike: okay, but the actual code here doesn't use that style.
2015-05-08T05:09:29Z kami: beach: sure. I would never write such thing if it wasn't for: "If you want to contribute to some software, I suggest you follow the style guide that the author follows."
2015-05-08T05:10:12Z kami: Bike: the libssh subdir is copied from another repo https://bitbucket.org/alxchk/cl-libssh2 because the original author was unresponsive
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2015-05-08T05:15:44Z beach: kami: So you have two options.  Follow the style guide of the current maintainer or clone the repository and do what you want.
2015-05-08T05:16:42Z kami: beach: I will definitely not create a second clone of the original code. I think that our small community is enough fragmented.
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2015-05-08T05:17:39Z beach: That's probably true.  And creating and following style guides that are contrary to widespread use contributes to the fragmentation.
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2015-05-08T05:22:20Z kami: beach: I think it won't hurt to try something new, although I rather would have tried ASDF 3's package-inferred-system: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-package_002dinferred_002dsystem-extension.html
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2015-05-08T05:28:36Z kami: In addition to all the defpackage forms in each file, one still has to track the dependencies of the lisp files in asdf.
2015-05-08T05:29:01Z pillton: "This style was made popular"?
2015-05-08T05:29:05Z pillton is out of the loop
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2015-05-08T05:32:43Z kami: pillton: the wording sounds like young, aspiring people
2015-05-08T05:35:03Z kami: They seem to have written a lot of libs.
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2015-05-08T05:40:28Z emaczen: I'm making a simple multiplayer card game with Hunchentoot and am unsure of how to update a client's browser based on another client changing the state on the server.
2015-05-08T05:40:39Z emaczen: Any suggestions?
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2015-05-08T05:41:11Z H4ns: emaczen: you want websockets.  oh, wait.
2015-05-08T05:42:58Z H4ns: emaczen: hunchentoot has no infrastructure for that.  i hear that there are other cl webservers who have websocket support, but i have not tried them.
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2015-05-08T05:43:47Z H4ns: emaczen: you can also use long polling if you're not interested in scaling.  just implement an api handler that waits until something happens before returning the respone to the client.
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2015-05-08T05:46:32Z emaczen: H4ns: Thanks, I'll try it out -- where can I start looking for "waiting."
2015-05-08T05:47:04Z H4ns: emaczen: look at lparallel, it has queues if i remember correctly.
2015-05-08T05:47:50Z H4ns: emaczen: http://lparallel.org/api/queues/
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2015-05-08T05:48:26Z emaczen: What about: https://github.com/capitaomorte/hunchensocket
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2015-05-08T05:49:36Z H4ns: emaczen: i'm not sure how well it works.  last time i tried it, it did not even compile with the latest hunchentoot version.  i had plans to make it part of hunchentoot, but it was too much effort.
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2015-05-08T05:50:14Z H4ns: oh, it seems that it received some love over the last year, so maybe it is worth trying.
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2015-05-08T06:00:41Z beach: kami`: Style changes over time.  As with natural languages, the change often comes from "young, aspiring people".  Things will change when there are more people using the new style than people using the old style.  Often, there is no intrinsic reason for this or that style.  The only requirement is that it be shared by most users.
2015-05-08T06:00:48Z beach: kami`: So you can decide for yourself what you want to do.  But there is no great point in asking for advice, because the oldies are going to tell you one thing, and the "young, aspiring people" are going to tell you something else.
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2015-05-08T06:02:48Z pillton: kami: It has been a long time since I've thought, geeze I waste a lot of time on managing my systems.
2015-05-08T06:03:37Z beach: pillton: So you mean that these days, you don't spend a lot of time doing that?
2015-05-08T06:04:09Z pillton: beach: Yes. I don't waste time on managing my systems.
2015-05-08T06:04:19Z beach: Good! :)
2015-05-08T06:04:20Z pillton apologises for the double negatives.
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2015-05-08T06:04:42Z beach: Different styles. :)
2015-05-08T06:05:27Z beach: pillton: Your answer reminds me of people from India.
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2015-05-08T06:06:21Z pillton: Well, qualifying resolves any ambiguities.
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2015-05-08T06:06:26Z beach: Correct.
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2015-05-08T06:07:33Z beach: I personally find the "one package per file" too restrictive.  I often want to divide the functionality of a package (so to speak) into more manageable and more coherent units.  And I use the file level for that.
2015-05-08T06:08:16Z beach: That way, I can write a long comment at the beginning of the file, explaining what is going on generally in that file.
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2015-05-08T06:09:29Z pillton: I agree.
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2015-05-08T06:10:17Z pillton: An obvious example is src/macros.lisp and src/using-those-macros.lisp.
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2015-05-08T06:10:39Z beach: Good example, yes.
2015-05-08T06:10:40Z jackdaniel:  there is ^L for breaking pages
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2015-05-08T06:11:37Z beach: pillton: Even better: src/support-functions.lisp and src/macros-using-those-support-functions.lisp.
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2015-05-08T06:12:36Z beach: What I mean is that there are examples where one file has to be compiled and loaded before some other file is even compiled.
2015-05-08T06:13:49Z beach: jackdaniel: You must be one of the "young, aspiring people", I take it. :)
2015-05-08T06:14:01Z Quadrescence: I just learned today how awful namestrings can be for "overly" conforming implementations. :(
2015-05-08T06:14:02Z pillton: beach: That is right. Managing eval-when becomes boring really quick.
2015-05-08T06:14:12Z beach: pillton: Exactly.
2015-05-08T06:15:00Z jackdaniel: beach: I'm not saying one file / package, just your note about comment organization fits nicely for ^L
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2015-05-08T06:16:06Z Quadrescence: beach, can you implement better namestrings
2015-05-08T06:16:15Z Quadrescence: that are not conforming but are actually useful
2015-05-08T06:16:50Z pillton: jackdaniel: I use ^L and ;;;; comments. I have shortcuts for jumping to different sections too.
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2015-05-08T06:26:52Z pillton: Quadrescence: What is wrong with namestrings?
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2015-05-08T06:27:08Z Quadrescence: pillton, they are defined to have uppercase letters only
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2015-05-08T06:27:24Z Quadrescence: and no symbols but letters/numbers/hyphens
2015-05-08T06:27:35Z pillton: That is only specific to logical pathnames from what I understand.
2015-05-08T06:27:41Z Quadrescence: yes that is true
2015-05-08T06:27:52Z Quadrescence: and logical pathnames are what I want to use 99% of the time for applications
2015-05-08T06:28:33Z pillton: I usually define a function (make-problem-pathname a b c).
2015-05-08T06:28:56Z pillton: I know what you mean though.
2015-05-08T06:29:33Z Quadrescence: Clozure CL is mostly reasonable and makes logical namestrings useful
2015-05-08T06:29:52Z pillton: ...at the expense of portability.
2015-05-08T06:30:26Z Quadrescence: I don't think relying on logical namestring behavior will keep anything portable
2015-05-08T06:31:08Z Quadrescence: unless you decide to ALL CAPS all of your files, not use underscores, and hope your implementations of choice exhibit the same behavior
2015-05-08T06:31:22Z Quadrescence: (namely the same translation rules)
2015-05-08T06:32:02Z pillton: We should write a CDR.
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2015-05-08T06:32:51Z Quadrescence: That is probably a good idea.
2015-05-08T06:32:54Z pillton: You start quadrescence.io. I'll contribute soon.
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2015-05-08T06:33:04Z Quadrescence: :)
2015-05-08T06:33:25Z beach: Quadrescence: I have enough on my plate, thank you very much.
2015-05-08T06:33:56Z Quadrescence: beach, you're the one writing an implementation!
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2015-05-08T06:34:10Z beach: A *conforming* implementation.
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2015-05-08T06:34:44Z Quadrescence: beach, yeah but you want it useful too, eh?
2015-05-08T06:35:16Z beach: Quadrescence: I didn't think you would be one of the people putting words in my mouth. :)
2015-05-08T06:35:41Z Quadrescence: I had a rough day with logical namestrings, ok? ;)
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2015-05-08T06:35:49Z beach: I can tell, yes. :)
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2015-05-08T07:07:05Z beach: Shinmera: Hello!  Is it hard to teach Colleen about `mop' in addition to `clhs'?
2015-05-08T07:07:43Z Shinmera: beach: Colleen just uses the l1sp.org lookup in the back, so no. Gimme a minute.
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2015-05-08T07:10:57Z beach: I don't see how that will make it easy, but hey, what do I know.
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2015-05-08T07:12:27Z Shinmera: Unfortunately my university WiFi is terrible as always again
2015-05-08T07:12:37Z Shinmera: beach: It means I can just copy paste some code.
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2015-05-08T07:13:13Z beach: I still don't see how that helps with the MOP. :(
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2015-05-08T07:15:28Z Shinmera: Colleen: do mop add-dependent
2015-05-08T07:15:29Z Colleen: Generic Function add-dependent http://www.alu.org/mop/dictionary.html#add-dependent
2015-05-08T07:15:38Z beach: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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2015-05-08T07:15:49Z beach: I want the metamodular site of course.
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2015-05-08T07:16:43Z Shinmera: Well, that's not where l1sp.org redirects to, so getting it to work with metamodular would take a lot more.
2015-05-08T07:17:05Z beach: That's why I didn't see how it could be that easy.
2015-05-08T07:17:08Z Shinmera: You're welcome to write a module that does it though.
2015-05-08T07:17:19Z beach: That's why I asked how hard it its.
2015-05-08T07:17:21Z beach: is
2015-05-08T07:17:44Z Shinmera: Well, how should I know what you're talking about when you just say "mop".
2015-05-08T07:18:48Z beach: Shinmera: I suppose.  I thought you knew about all the work I had invested in making a freely-modifiable MOP site, and that someone had taught specbot about it.
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2015-05-08T07:19:49Z p_l: :)
2015-05-08T07:20:04Z Shinmera: I knew you were doing something with MOP, but I didn't recall that that was it.
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2015-05-08T07:20:41Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/
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2015-05-08T07:22:22Z Shinmera: Well, parsing http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/all-no-methods.html would be trivial. The harder part is linking the chapters and all else nicely.
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2015-05-08T07:23:10Z beach: That's better than nothing.
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2015-05-08T07:23:47Z Shinmera: Either way, adding features to Colleen is easy, but I don't know if it'll be worth your time, given that specbot already does it, and it's probably better to see about getting that up again.
2015-05-08T07:23:49Z jackdaniel: I'd be great, if it's on l1sp.org (I often opt there to find some symbol)
2015-05-08T07:24:33Z beach: jackdaniel: True.
2015-05-08T07:24:45Z beach: Shinmera: Also true.
2015-05-08T07:26:46Z beach: I don't know who controls lisp.org or what it would take to make it use a different site for MOP functions.
2015-05-08T07:27:04Z p_l: l1sp.org is afaik Xach 's brainchild
2015-05-08T07:27:17Z beach: Oh? Hmm.  OK.
2015-05-08T07:27:45Z jackdaniel: dat
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2015-05-08T07:28:09Z Shinmera: It is, but I don't know if he used an existing library to do the work or wrote the lookup himself.
2015-05-08T07:28:56Z beach: The good news is that Xach can be asked, provide that he is awake.  So that's what we will do.
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2015-05-08T07:32:25Z Quadrescence: Here is my minimal counterpart to logical pathnames, creatively called illogical pathnames. https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/ae85df27cadd9ca529315713303c6b315337f63b/illogical-pathnames.lisp
2015-05-08T07:32:34Z Quadrescence: Example at the bottom of the file
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2015-05-08T07:33:18Z Quadrescence: Except for the fact that no existing common lisp function can accept an ILLOGICAL-PATHNAME, it covers probably 99% of the usefulness of a logical pathname.
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2015-05-08T07:41:49Z beach: Contribute it to Quicklisp.
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2015-05-08T07:42:45Z Quadrescence: Maybe when I clean it up and try it in a Real System (TM),.
2015-05-08T07:42:56Z Quadrescence: Time to sleep. Goodnight!
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2015-05-08T07:43:04Z beach: 'night Quadrescence.
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2015-05-08T07:59:11Z schjetne: Missed the conversation about style guides. I've been using the Ariel Networks style for a while, and I'm thinking of reverting to the traditional style. It has a lot of good points, but it looks awkward and inconsistent when sharing classes with code written in traditional style.
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2015-05-08T08:00:10Z Shinmera is a youngster in body only and doesn't see any value in these newfangled style attempts
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2015-05-08T08:00:23Z schjetne: I'm going to re-write my Elasticsearch lib using MOP, I'll probably go back to the old style then
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2015-05-08T08:00:35Z beach: For a style change to be justified, it should have some technical merit as well, I think.
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2015-05-08T08:01:59Z beach: Importing <> from Dylan would be like starting to write all nouns in English with an initial capital letter.
2015-05-08T08:02:04Z loke: schjetne: What language?
2015-05-08T08:02:29Z schjetne: beach: funny, I was thinking of the merits of doing that in German the other day
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2015-05-08T08:02:53Z schjetne: It probably has some, but just not enough to convince the world's English speakers. Same with Common Lisp and the <>s
2015-05-08T08:03:04Z schjetne: loke: language of what?
2015-05-08T08:03:05Z beach: Exactly.
2015-05-08T08:03:16Z loke: schjetne: The style gide you were talking about
2015-05-08T08:03:23Z beach: loke: Common Lisp.
2015-05-08T08:03:24Z schjetne: Common Lisp
2015-05-08T08:03:28Z schjetne: http://labs.ariel-networks.com/cl-style-guide.html
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2015-05-08T08:04:28Z Shinmera is a native German speaker and doesn't see the merit of capitalising nouns
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2015-05-08T08:06:31Z beach: Maybe we should use Hungarian notation for both English and German: iHello, pmy nname vis pnbeach!
2015-05-08T08:07:04Z beach: i = interjection, p = pronoun, n = noun, v = verb, pn = proper noun.
2015-05-08T08:07:16Z brucem: beach: Oddly, <> presents us with a problem.
2015-05-08T08:07:41Z beach: brucem: Oh, because you abandoned s-expressions?
2015-05-08T08:08:03Z Shinmera: Capitalising nouns also presents a problem: It muddies the distinction of names and nouns.
2015-05-08T08:08:19Z beach: Shinmera: I can see that.
2015-05-08T08:08:55Z brucem: beach: no ... it complicates the search for a good syntax for type variables / type parameters ... we have limited(<vector>, of: <foo>) ... but other languages just get to have Vector[Foo] or vector<foo> or .... but with class names wrapped in <...> already, it makes it awkward.
2015-05-08T08:08:56Z schjetne: Shinmera: at least German capitalisation is more consistent. If you only capitalise proper nouns you have to get into a whole debate about what is a common and what is a proper noun, which differs between languages.
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2015-05-08T08:09:12Z Shinmera: In my experience there's no benefit in readability in capitalising nouns, and only a hindrance when it comes to clashes of names/nouns.
2015-05-08T08:09:21Z beach: brucem: I see.
2015-05-08T08:09:54Z schjetne: I have a tendency to capitalise months and weekdays and languages in Swedish as proper nouns, which is wrong.
2015-05-08T08:09:54Z Shinmera: It's also simply much more annoying to type.
2015-05-08T08:10:25Z brucem: beach: on the other hand, the more verbose things let us do something like limited(<vector>, of: <single-float>, size: 4) ... so *shrug*
2015-05-08T08:10:39Z beach: :shrug:
2015-05-08T08:10:39Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾
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2015-05-08T08:11:43Z beach: schjetne: I get away with it because I also use French, which has the same convention as Swedish.
2015-05-08T08:12:27Z Shinmera is still really confused about the <class> idea in CL.
2015-05-08T08:12:50Z beach: Shinmera: What's the confusion?
2015-05-08T08:12:50Z Shinmera: I don't know how someone could have thought that it does anything but make you type more.
2015-05-08T08:13:12Z lieven: lol English used to capitalize nouns and has lost that spelling around the 18th century
2015-05-08T08:13:14Z Shinmera: The places where you reference classes are few and clearly distinct, there's no need to add it in.
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2015-05-08T08:13:38Z beach: Shinmera: It's the same motivation as Hungarian notation, i.e., it lets you tell at a glance if the name is that of a class or of something else.
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2015-05-08T08:13:56Z schjetne: A minor complaint would be the #< read macro, #<<MY-CLASS> {1007ADA013}> doesn't look as clean as #<MY-CLASS {1007ADA013}>
2015-05-08T08:14:12Z Shinmera: beach: But I know that already by the context. In languages where hungarian was/is used, that isn't the case.
2015-05-08T08:14:42Z beach: Shinmera: I am not saying it's logical.  I am just rehashing what the advocates say.
2015-05-08T08:14:54Z Shinmera: Yeah and I'm restating why I'm confused about it.
2015-05-08T08:15:11Z H4ns: what makes classes or types so important that they need to be specially decorated when mentioned?
2015-05-08T08:15:19Z Shinmera: I just can't find any explanation for it that makes sense to me
2015-05-08T08:15:33Z beach: Me, I like puns.  My favorite from McCLIM is (defmethod graft ((graft graft)) graft)
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2015-05-08T08:16:13Z H4ns: i mean, i can see the point of earmuffs because it is hard to tell dynamic versus lexical binding from context, but classes are just classes and it can be seen from the immediate context when one refers to it.
2015-05-08T08:16:27Z Shinmera: H4ns: exactly.
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2015-05-08T08:17:14Z H4ns: to me, the <> convention looks rather 90ies, like in "look, we are sooo object oriented and we use classes in all our code, look here and here, isn't it great"?
2015-05-08T08:17:17Z H4ns: </snark>
2015-05-08T08:17:28Z beach: Heh!
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2015-05-08T08:21:56Z beach: I think it is easy to try to "fix" some aspect of a language when one is still inexperienced with it.  Here is another futile attempt, this time at fixing S-expression syntax: http://www.semdesigns.com/Products/PARLANSE/examples.html
2015-05-08T08:22:39Z H4ns: that was mean
2015-05-08T08:22:52Z beach: Oh?  Why?
2015-05-08T08:23:25Z H4ns: beach: i expected something at least decent.  but that?  ;;?  ifthenelse?
2015-05-08T08:23:40Z Shinmera: That huge indentation on the lambda. Tasty.
2015-05-08T08:23:45Z H4ns: nom
2015-05-08T08:24:14Z schjetne: I think I saw an Autolisp tutorial indented that way.
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2015-05-08T08:24:39Z beach: I was more thinking of the (bla )bla convention.
2015-05-08T08:24:51Z schjetne: That I haven't seen before
2015-05-08T08:25:22Z Shinmera: beach: (bla .. bla) is something I could deem half-bearable, if on the same level of redundancy as XML, but putting it after the paren just looks weird no matter what.
2015-05-08T08:25:27Z beach: (defun f (x) (if (> x 10)> (+ x 20)+ (- x 3)-)if)defun
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2015-05-08T08:26:31Z Shinmera: (> ° _ °)>
2015-05-08T08:26:59Z jdz: what on earth am i looking at?
2015-05-08T08:27:11Z jackdaniel: jdz: don't ask, I've turned off irc 5 minutes ago
2015-05-08T08:27:13Z jackdaniel: ;-)
2015-05-08T08:27:29Z Shinmera: jdz: Tasty syntax
2015-05-08T08:29:33Z beach: jdz: You need to read the logs.  It's too long to explain.
2015-05-08T08:29:45Z beach: But maybe it's time to get back to Common Lisp anyway.
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2015-05-08T08:30:28Z Shinmera waits for someone to write a ( reader macro that does this
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2015-05-08T08:36:43Z beach: I am slowly converting the SICL bootstrapping process to using first-class global environments.  For example, I instantiate classes in E1 and putting the result in E2, so that I can say (defclass standard-class (...) ...) and I can define the class T also without any problems.  I just have to make sure that the MAKE-INSTANCE that is available in E2 is imported from (i.e., tied to) E1 so that it instantiates classes with names in E1
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2015-05-08T08:38:25Z beach: The SICL bootstrapping process starts by bootstrapping CLOS.
2015-05-08T08:40:12Z ehu: beach: but that assumes you already have a functioning/working underlying CL implementation to at least some extent, right? I guess what I'm asking is: to what extent could I benefit from what you learn from SICL to improve ABCL?
2015-05-08T08:40:28Z Shinmera: You bootstrap from a working CL
2015-05-08T08:40:34Z beach: ehu: I am doing this in SBCL.
2015-05-08T08:41:00Z beach: Shinmera: Yes, a working Common Lisp with CLOSER-MOP (for funcallable-standard-object).
2015-05-08T08:41:33Z Shinmera: I've been curious; Which implementations (aside from Clasp) aren't supported by closer-mop?
2015-05-08T08:41:55Z Shinmera: I tried looking around its homepage but it doesn't say anywhere.
2015-05-08T08:42:00Z beach: ehu: I created the infrastructure necessary to evaluate SICL expressions in first-class global environments inside a different host Common Lisp system.
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2015-05-08T08:43:00Z beach: Shinmera: I don't know.  I just had a look at the list of supported implementations and decided it wouldn't be a constraint for bootstrapping SICL.
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2015-05-08T08:44:03Z Shinmera: Oh and as an addendum: The reason closer-mop doesn't work with Clasp is apparently some reader macro switches in its system definition that need to be adapted. Since Clasp inherits ECL it should just work once that's fixed.
2015-05-08T08:44:22Z beach: Yeah, shouldn't be hard.
2015-05-08T08:44:56Z beach: But bootstrapping is already sluggish on SBCL.  I can't imagine what it would be like in Clasp.
2015-05-08T08:45:42Z beach: I translate HIR code to Common Lisp and then I compile it with the host Common Lisp compiler.  Apparently, I spend 30% of CPU time in the SBCL register allocator.
2015-05-08T08:45:55Z beach: ehu: Does that answer your question?
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2015-05-08T08:47:21Z beach: The reason the register allocator is highly solicited is that the immediate translation of HIR into Common Lisp contains LOTS of temporaries which are bound at the beginning of each function as a huge LET.
2015-05-08T08:48:21Z Shinmera: How long does the bootstrap take in its entirety so far?
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2015-05-08T08:50:41Z beach: I don't know yet.  I am only now starting to generate classes in E2.  There will be 2-3 more steps to perform.
2015-05-08T08:50:52Z beach: Creating E1 takes 2 minutes or so.
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2015-05-08T08:51:20Z Shinmera: So that would be around two hours in clasp, judging by build time comparison SBCL/Clasp
2015-05-08T08:51:46Z beach: I guess so, yes.
2015-05-08T08:52:15Z Shinmera should still put up a ready to download package of clasp
2015-05-08T08:52:15Z beach: Not out of the question for building a final SICL system, but unacceptable during development.
2015-05-08T08:52:25Z Shinmera: Right.
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2015-05-08T09:04:44Z ehu: beach:  yes, it does. basically, it won't help ABCL much, because when it boots, there's only a minimal subset of CL available.
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2015-05-08T09:06:36Z ehu: I'm thinking ABCL's bootstrapping could use cleaning up in different ways then.
2015-05-08T09:13:12Z Shinmera: You could benefit if you bootstrap from a working ABCL, I guess.
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2015-05-08T09:14:35Z beach: ehu: I see.  That thing of starting with a minimal subset is precisely what I do not want.
2015-05-08T09:15:44Z beach: Even THINKING about having to use a less-than-full Common Lisp for the development makes me want to go take a nap instead.
2015-05-08T09:16:16Z Shinmera has to think about existing C/++ build systems and wants to take a nap instead too
2015-05-08T09:16:30Z beach: Heh!
2015-05-08T09:16:45Z jackdaniel mumbles something about trusting trust :p
2015-05-08T09:17:23Z Shinmera mumbles something about how people trust their OS and everything else already anyway
2015-05-08T09:18:12Z ehu: beach: right. however, since I want to write Lisp code, I want to start out with a minimal subset, because if I don't do that, then I have to code the full set in Java.
2015-05-08T09:18:14Z ehu: ...
2015-05-08T09:18:19Z jackdaniel thinks, that being lazy @ something isn't a good argument to be lazy at other stuff
2015-05-08T09:18:40Z Shinmera doesn't know where lazy comes into any of this
2015-05-08T09:18:59Z beach: ehu: I don't believe the "have to" part.  You could probably bootstrap from an existing Common Lisp they way I intend to do with SICL.
2015-05-08T09:19:09Z Shinmera: ehu: Well, if you have a working ABCL that outputs bytecode you /can/ bootstrap your entire system again in that ABCL.
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2015-05-08T10:18:41Z kephra: clisp is searching for maintainers ;-( if you know someone who could take the burden
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2015-05-08T11:00:54Z Xach: was ist los
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2015-05-08T11:01:50Z Shinmera: Xach: beach wants l1sp.org to link to his metamodular version of the MOP instead of the ALU version.
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2015-05-08T11:13:53Z Xach: ok
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2015-05-08T11:16:15Z beach: kephra: Is this something recent, i.e. that somebody is searching for CLISP maintainers?  Or is it just a feeling you have that it needs some?
2015-05-08T11:16:31Z kephra: beach - 18 hours ago
2015-05-08T11:16:36Z kephra: is that recent enough ;-)
2015-05-08T11:16:41Z beach: kephra: Yes, definitely.
2015-05-08T11:16:48Z beach: kephra: Link?
2015-05-08T11:16:58Z kephra: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.clisp.general/14256
2015-05-08T11:17:10Z kephra: *blush* 19 hours
2015-05-08T11:17:17Z kephra: news are getting old pretty fast
2015-05-08T11:17:20Z beach: kephra: Good enough.  Thanks.
2015-05-08T11:18:59Z beach: Xach: I understand lisp.org is your site, so you can of course do what you want.  However, the metamodular version of the HTML MOP is must more complete than the previous one.  And it can be modified without risking a violation of the copyright.
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2015-05-08T11:19:52Z beach: make that "much more complete"
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2015-05-08T11:21:17Z Xach: beach: it is easiest for me if you provide a new file to replace https://github.com/xach/l1sp-org/blob/master/redirects/mop.txt
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2015-05-08T11:21:43Z beach: I can do that.
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2015-05-08T11:47:14Z beach: Xach: What do I do about functions named (SETF <mumble>)?
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2015-05-08T11:51:33Z Xach: beach: There is no URL syntax for them
2015-05-08T11:53:17Z beach: Right, the URL I can handle.  What about the function name.
2015-05-08T11:53:46Z beach: Can I just put "(SETF <mumble>)" after "mop"?
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2015-05-08T11:54:32Z beach: I can just leave them out I guess.
2015-05-08T11:56:37Z beach: I am checking each URL manually.  I'll be done in a few minutes.
2015-05-08T11:57:33Z Xach: beach: l1sp.org does not do things like l1sp.org/mop/(setf%20mumble)
2015-05-08T11:58:01Z Xach: beach: is it the case that mumble and (setf mumble) are documented in two separate places, or that the former does not even exist?
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2015-05-08T12:06:24Z beach: They are documented in two different places.
2015-05-08T12:06:54Z beach: Xach: http://metamodular.com/mop.txt
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2015-05-08T12:07:30Z beach: Longer than the previous one, because I have a page for each CLASS-, GENERIC-FUNCTION-, and SLOT- generic function.
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2015-05-08T12:11:23Z Xach: http://l1sp.org/mop/add-method now goes to metamodular.com
2015-05-08T12:11:28Z Xach: and all the others, too
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2015-05-08T12:15:25Z beach: Very nice!  Thank you very much!
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2015-05-08T12:15:43Z beach: Colleen: do mop class-slots
2015-05-08T12:15:44Z Colleen: Generic Function CLASS-SLOTS
2015-05-08T12:15:44Z Colleen: Syntax:
2015-05-08T12:15:44Z Colleen: class-slots class =>
2015-05-08T12:15:52Z beach: Hmm.
2015-05-08T12:16:35Z Shinmera: Yeah I need to tweak that a bit still.
2015-05-08T12:16:47Z Shinmera: I'll do that later, I'm sitting in a lab right now
2015-05-08T12:16:51Z beach: Oh, so it wasn't me who broke it?
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2015-05-08T12:24:21Z beach: My web karma is clearly not great.  When I click on the URL to lisp.org my browser shows the page at metamodular, but when I type it in as a link, I get a 404.
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2015-05-08T12:25:14Z jdz: beach: l1sp.org?
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2015-05-08T12:25:29Z beach: Yeah.
2015-05-08T12:25:47Z jdz: which is not lisp.org
2015-05-08T12:25:56Z beach: Oh.
2015-05-08T12:26:06Z beach: It *is* my dyslexia getting worse.
2015-05-08T12:26:16Z beach: Thanks
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2015-05-08T12:50:43Z Cymew: I just realized one thing. All FASL formats differ, right. Have anyone tried to use ELF as their FASL format, or are the obvious snags I just don't realize (typing as I get the idea)?
2015-05-08T12:52:34Z nyef: Cymew: There are a few problems with that idea, though it's not unheard-of for implementations that compile via C.
2015-05-08T12:52:40Z p_l: Cymew: ECL uses ELF
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2015-05-08T12:56:34Z Cymew: Sounds like I was not totally crazy then. Thanks.
2015-05-08T12:56:41Z oleo: hello :)
2015-05-08T12:57:02Z p_l: Cymew: the issue is that you're going to have a lot of dependency on runtime
2015-05-08T12:57:07Z Cymew: True
2015-05-08T12:57:23Z p_l: Cymew: mind you, ELF objects are not shareable in other languages that use them, including C
2015-05-08T12:57:41Z p_l: (the illusion on most linux/*nix systems is well maintained, but ultimately an illusion)
2015-05-08T12:58:29Z Wind: hello ,i do like <ns register Right_on@hotmail.com Leftout> is right or wrong? thanks for tell me?
2015-05-08T12:58:50Z jackdaniel: derp
2015-05-08T12:58:50Z Cymew: Only somehat jokingly, lot of unix feels like an illusion, some days.
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2015-05-08T12:59:10Z Cymew: Wind: Ice cream
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2015-05-08T13:06:51Z JuanDaugherty: compared to what? Seems super solid to me.
2015-05-08T13:07:31Z JuanDaugherty: compared to the proton maybe. Other softwares/OSes not so much.
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2015-05-08T13:13:35Z Cymew: It's just a wonder it stays together, I feel. Complex piece of stuff
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2015-05-08T13:29:18Z bipt: Cymew, guile uses elf for its object files (and dwarf for debugging information)
2015-05-08T13:29:53Z bipt: https://wingolog.org/archives/2014/01/19/elf-in-guile
2015-05-08T13:35:22Z Cymew: Didn't know that. Thanks for enlightening me.
2015-05-08T13:35:42Z Cymew: Seems like I was onto something, eh? ;)
2015-05-08T13:38:04Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-08T13:38:50Z Wind: who can give the exmple to me? to register
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2015-05-08T13:48:28Z Xach: Wind: there is no registration
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2015-05-08T13:49:15Z jackdaniel: I think it's about registering nick on irc server
2015-05-08T13:49:20Z Wind: how can i do?
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2015-05-08T13:49:52Z jackdaniel: http://www.wikihow.com/Register-a-User-Name-on-Freenode
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2015-05-08T13:50:21Z jackdaniel: btw, it was a second result on ddg, you didn't looked hard, did you?
2015-05-08T13:50:29Z jackdaniel: havent looked°
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2015-05-08T13:51:35Z Wind: ye
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2015-05-08T14:00:22Z Shinmera: beach: Your MOP HTML is less than pleasing to parse :/
2015-05-08T14:01:16Z beach: Sorry to hear that.  What is wrong with it?
2015-05-08T14:01:21Z Shinmera: It's not structured at all.
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2015-05-08T14:02:18Z beach: Right, it was meant to look like the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2015-05-08T14:02:29Z Shinmera: Doesn't have to be crap to parse too.
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2015-05-08T14:02:37Z oleo: hello beach ! :)
2015-05-08T14:03:08Z zhao: hello
2015-05-08T14:03:57Z zhao: i wanna to ask a question about the webpage created by lisp code
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2015-05-08T14:05:07Z zhao: this webpage could not show normal webpage but  just show the source code in the firefox
2015-05-08T14:05:46Z zhao: who can give me a hand
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2015-05-08T14:05:58Z oleo: zhao: give the link
2015-05-08T14:06:07Z oleo: zhao: it maybe xml
2015-05-08T14:06:22Z oleo: zhao: then you have to basically go back one level in the url
2015-05-08T14:06:39Z dim: or the lisp source code because it's a static apache setup and not a lisp http listener?
2015-05-08T14:06:53Z oleo: no idea
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2015-05-08T14:08:33Z oleo: oh hey
2015-05-08T14:08:39Z oleo: jep, got it
2015-05-08T14:09:35Z oleo: wait, nope
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2015-05-08T14:10:53Z oleo: sorry it does not work, somehow my client is not configured
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2015-05-08T14:13:05Z oleo: i hope it works now
2015-05-08T14:13:19Z oleo: i did accept it but nothing gets downloaded....
2015-05-08T14:14:35Z oleo: oh man
2015-05-08T14:15:44Z zhao: thank you any way
2015-05-08T14:16:09Z beach: Am I missing something here?  I never saw a link.
2015-05-08T14:16:37Z oleo: jep, he was trying to send me webserver.lisp via dcc
2015-05-08T14:16:49Z beach: I see.
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2015-05-08T14:49:48Z beach: I wonder what happened to drmeister.  He should be back by now I would think.
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2015-05-08T14:53:01Z Shinmera: He's in SF for the weekend.
2015-05-08T14:53:18Z beach: Oh.  OK.
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2015-05-08T14:54:06Z Shinmera: Colleen: do mop class-direct-subclasses
2015-05-08T14:54:07Z Colleen: Generic Function CLASS-DIRECT-SUBCLASSES http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-direct-subclasses.html
2015-05-08T14:54:11Z Shinmera: Hooray.
2015-05-08T14:54:16Z beach: Nice!
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2015-05-08T15:05:11Z Shinmera: I could activate the ! prefix on this channel again so that !clhs would work instead of having to do Colleen: do clhs
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2015-05-08T15:22:10Z Xach: omitting "do" would be an upgrade
2015-05-08T15:22:36Z Shinmera: The "do" bypasses the dictionary lookup.
2015-05-08T15:23:06Z Xach: Details. "do mop foo" looks terrible.
2015-05-08T15:23:12Z Shinmera: I know.
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2015-05-08T15:23:28Z nyef: Why can't "clhs" or "mop" also bypass the lookup (or do so if there's any following text)?
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2015-05-08T15:23:51Z Shinmera: nyef: because they're generic commands and dictionary items can be arbitrary text.
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2015-05-08T15:24:55Z nyef: So, can you have a dictionary item named "do"?
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2015-05-08T15:25:25Z Shinmera: Yes, but you need to look it up differently.
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2015-05-08T15:25:50Z nyef: Eesh.
2015-05-08T15:26:27Z Shinmera: Anyway, the "do" thing isn't how you're supposed to call commands anyway. I added that in when I realised having the standard calling activated on all channels is bad, but I'd still like to invoke commands some times.
2015-05-08T15:26:51Z Shinmera: It's a kludge.
2015-05-08T15:28:29Z newcup: reminds me of INTERCAL. "PLEASE DO ...". if there are not enough pleases, compiler will throw an error for program being insufficiently polite
2015-05-08T15:28:37Z Shinmera: Heh
2015-05-08T15:29:18Z Shinmera: I realise it's not optimal, mostly because it wasn't ever supposed to be anything but a circumvention. I'll think about a better solution though.
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2015-05-08T15:39:08Z jackdaniel: (> :clhs list)
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2015-05-08T15:45:50Z jasom: newcup: and if there are too many pleases it will throw an error for being obsequious
2015-05-08T15:46:00Z jasom: what happened to specbot anyway?
2015-05-08T15:46:23Z Shinmera: I'll ask stas
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2015-05-08T15:54:05Z newcup: jasom: and as goto was considered harmful (was it already at that time?) it had a COME FROM. brilliant satire
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2015-05-08T15:57:10Z jasom: newcup: goto was considered harmful in 1968
2015-05-08T15:57:33Z jasom: newcup: the paper was written to convince people to switch to newfangled things like "if/then/else" constructs
2015-05-08T15:57:58Z jasom: "Goto is strictly more powerful, so why should we add all this unecessary cruft like while and if?"
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2015-05-08T15:59:15Z jackdaniel: friday afternoon - perfect time to detach from mundane debugging of consulting project and attach to mundane debugging of ecl :D
2015-05-08T15:59:27Z newcup: newfangled if, which was already introduced in lisp ages ago
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2015-05-08T16:00:40Z jackdaniel: well, goto has it's uses
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2015-05-08T16:00:49Z jackdaniel: if might be abused as well, as well as closure, or class ;p
2015-05-08T16:01:00Z jasom: FORTRAN in 1957 had a 3-out IF (positive, negative, zero)
2015-05-08T16:02:09Z jasom: logical if didn't appear until in FORTRAN until '66
2015-05-08T16:02:52Z jasom: er I'm wrong, '62 in FORTRAN IV
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2015-05-08T16:05:59Z drmeister:  Hello
2015-05-08T16:06:09Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-05-08T16:06:40Z newcup: oh, right. FORTRAN's IF is mentioned in McCarthy's lisp prehistory. interesting
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2015-05-08T16:09:45Z nyef: jasom: That "... is more powerful, so why should we..." argument sounds like Scheme!
2015-05-08T16:10:13Z drmeister: I attended an llvm social last night. These people get paid to write, and debug lots of c++
2015-05-08T16:10:34Z jackdaniel: drmeister: no wonder, who'd do that for free? :D
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2015-05-08T16:11:24Z beach: drmeister: why pays them?
2015-05-08T16:11:41Z drmeister: Apple, Google, Sony
2015-05-08T16:11:50Z beach: Wow.
2015-05-08T16:12:22Z drmeister: A Sony person showed up. He was a bit of a celebrity.
2015-05-08T16:12:22Z jackdaniel: it's their effort to get rid once and for all from gcc, which can't have closed supplementary modules
2015-05-08T16:12:30Z beach: drmeister: Was it worthwhile?
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2015-05-08T16:14:16Z drmeister: beach: I don't know. I met some people who helped me. They knew of me.
2015-05-08T16:15:15Z drmeister: They don't see the difference in CL - just another language.
2015-05-08T16:15:37Z beach: I suppose that could be good or bad.
2015-05-08T16:15:40Z drmeister: Hang on, on phone must switch to laptop
2015-05-08T16:16:11Z beach: Good if it means it ought to be supported then.  Bad if they think it can be treated as if it were C or C++.
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2015-05-08T16:17:08Z jackdaniel: what does type (array t 1) actually mean? (array t (8)) means - 8 elements of type t
2015-05-08T16:17:11Z jackdaniel: but former?
2015-05-08T16:17:26Z Xof: a 1-dimensional array of any size
2015-05-08T16:17:35Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-05-08T16:17:39Z Xof: the same as (array t (*))
2015-05-08T16:17:47Z Xof: (or simple-vector)
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2015-05-08T16:18:24Z drmeister: CL is a different language to them, without a distinction.  So I guess it makes no impact on them.
2015-05-08T16:18:33Z jasom: well C++ is iterating fast enough, that instead of writing a macro, you can just wait 3 years and it will be added to the language ;)
2015-05-08T16:18:41Z drmeister: There was one interesting discussion about exception handling.
2015-05-08T16:19:32Z drmeister: The guy working on getting exception handling working for llvm on Windows proclaimed that if he wrote a language he would leave out exception handling because it just gives programmers tools to make mistakes.
2015-05-08T16:20:11Z jdz: isn't that what Go is about?
2015-05-08T16:20:15Z drmeister: I pointed out Common Lisp's restart system and he knew about it and said that Common Lisp was different and did it properly.
2015-05-08T16:20:17Z foom: no, Go has exceptions
2015-05-08T16:20:28Z foom: (It just makes them hard to use.)
2015-05-08T16:20:29Z jdz: oh, i've been misinformed
2015-05-08T16:20:48Z foom: You listened to their propaganda. :)
2015-05-08T16:21:17Z failproofshark: writing mcaros in c++ sounds painful (not the preprocessor kind)
2015-05-08T16:21:19Z _death: panic/recover aren't used that much..
2015-05-08T16:21:24Z beach: drmeister: That's very interesting.
2015-05-08T16:21:25Z drmeister: Two level try/throw/catch exception handling is pretty useless.
2015-05-08T16:21:42Z foom: _death: Sure. They're hard to use, the syntax intentionally gets in your way.
2015-05-08T16:22:01Z foom: Yet, the language still contains exceptions, and a runtime still needs to support them.
2015-05-08T16:22:31Z drmeister: I think on the Sony PS4 they disable it.  That is not a good thing for Clasp because I need it to implement stack unwinding in Common Lisp in a way that can interoperate with C++.
2015-05-08T16:22:53Z drmeister: So I guess that is a request to make - please don't disable C++ exception handling.
2015-05-08T16:23:37Z jasom: drmeister: a lot of embedded projects disable it
2015-05-08T16:23:53Z beach: drmeister: Why on earth would they do that.  It would mean that only a silly subset of C++ could be used.
2015-05-08T16:24:19Z drmeister: They do it.  On HPC systems the default compiler settings disable exception handling.
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2015-05-08T16:24:27Z jasom: some embedded compilers use inefficient exception handling mechanisms that add overhead even when no exception is thrown
2015-05-08T16:24:36Z jasom: also it tends to make the standard library ues more ROM
2015-05-08T16:24:45Z Bike: i don't think ps4s even have fully compliant IEEE floats. consoles are weird.
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2015-05-08T16:25:24Z drmeister: gcc option:  --disable-libunwind-exceptions
2015-05-08T16:25:26Z jasom: Bike: a lot of Power and ARM FPUs don't do denormals without OS assistance (i.e. a denormal triggers an interrupt and the ISR is supposed to do the "right thing")
2015-05-08T16:26:09Z jasom: I think the newer neon FPUs do it in hardware though
2015-05-08T16:26:28Z jasom: e.g. coretex A series
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2015-05-08T16:27:27Z drmeister: It's a language feature of dubious value to C++ programmers but useful for me to implement the Common Lisp restart system.
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2015-05-08T16:27:40Z drmeister: Sorry if I'm repeating myself - I'm formulating an argument.
2015-05-08T16:27:46Z akkad: Ober: so lw7 is finally giving sbcl a performance run for their money?
2015-05-08T16:28:07Z beach: Exceptions are of dubious value?  Oh dear!
2015-05-08T16:28:22Z beach: This means they know nothing about basic software engineering.
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2015-05-08T16:30:13Z drmeister: They get paid to shovel C++ .
2015-05-08T16:30:22Z drmeister is not afraid of C++ going away any time soon.
2015-05-08T16:30:37Z jasom: it's the new FORTRAN
2015-05-08T16:30:47Z jasom: the C++ of today looks nothing like the C++ of 10 years ago
2015-05-08T16:31:14Z drmeister: I hitched my wagon to a winner there.
2015-05-08T16:31:17Z jasom: projecting forward, in 10 years people will write in a language named C++ that bears little resemblance to what people use today
2015-05-08T16:31:22Z jackdaniel: are there any performance benchmarks of CL implementations?
2015-05-08T16:31:31Z jasom: jackdaniel: there's the gabriel benchmarks
2015-05-08T16:32:12Z jasom: cliki has a benchmark page with results from 2011 I think
2015-05-08T16:32:21Z drmeister has all sorts of mixed feelings about the state and future of software
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2015-05-08T16:32:32Z jackdaniel: jasom: thanks
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2015-05-08T16:33:21Z drmeister: Here's something else I noticed - I wonder what others think of it.
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2015-05-08T16:33:50Z drmeister: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/n4474.pdf
2015-05-08T16:34:17Z drmeister: tl;dr  It's a proposal for C++17 to make x.f(y) and f(x,y) equivalent.
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2015-05-08T16:35:01Z drmeister: Because they realized that having two different syntaxes to invoke functions makes it difficult to do C++ template programming
2015-05-08T16:35:18Z beach: drmeister: I have always thought that x.f(y) is silly because it requires the programmer to choose in which class f is a method; that of x or that of y.
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2015-05-08T16:35:28Z drmeister: This is why Common Lisp uses S-expressions.  Macros are much easier to write with S-expressions.
2015-05-08T16:36:13Z beach: drmeister: It is often not of intrinsic value where such a method should be placed, so having to choose early is bad design.
2015-05-08T16:36:14Z Bike: i would guess it's based off message passing systems, where it kind of makes sense
2015-05-08T16:36:18Z drmeister: beach: Well, that's single dispatch for you.  The functions are tied to a particular class.
2015-05-08T16:36:46Z beach: drmeister: Not quite.  If you write f(x, y) you can then often choose.
2015-05-08T16:36:49Z drmeister: We have multiple dispatch and generic functions - they are better than single dispatch and methods.
2015-05-08T16:37:03Z beach: drmeister: You can make f(x, y) call either x.g(y) or y.h(x).
2015-05-08T16:37:05Z drmeister: beach: How so?
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2015-05-08T16:37:54Z drmeister: Yes, but once you decide then the function belongs to a class.  (In the vernacular of single dispatch OOP)
2015-05-08T16:38:16Z beach: drmeister: Still, client code would write f(x, y) and they wouldn't see a change of decisions.
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2015-05-08T16:38:50Z jasom: beach: bjarne strustrup made a similar argument
2015-05-08T16:38:57Z beach: Oh, good for him.
2015-05-08T16:39:03Z drmeister: I'm missing something.  This C++17 proposal will allow x.f(y) to be written as f(x,y) in C++ for the first time.
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2015-05-08T16:39:33Z beach: drmeister: You have always been able to make f(x, y) a function that calls either x.g(y) or y.h(x).
2015-05-08T16:39:44Z beach: drmeister: And only publish f(x, y).
2015-05-08T16:40:02Z beach: drmeister: I am talking design and software engineering here.  Not language syntax.
2015-05-08T16:40:07Z drmeister: I see.
2015-05-08T16:40:16Z jasom: there were wo competing original proposals: one was to only make x.f(y) fall back on f(x,y) when x.f wasn't found; stroustrup argued against it since that would encourage member-functions over global functions, and this, in turn increases coupling
2015-05-08T16:40:28Z jasom: s/ wo / two /
2015-05-08T16:40:55Z beach: Yeah, the other way around seems better.
2015-05-08T16:41:11Z jasom: beach: they are going to do some form of both it looks like
2015-05-08T16:41:19Z drmeister: Well, it was interesting to me that this problem in C++ is only now being corrected.
2015-05-08T16:41:29Z beach: jasom: Not that it matters to me.  I am not planning to use it.
2015-05-08T16:41:30Z jasom: so in some cases x.f(y) will call f(x,y) and in some casses f(x,y) will call x.f(y)
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2015-05-08T16:42:08Z jasom: drmeister: not really, C++ stagnated for a while, and the tempo just recently increased.  Templates were only standardized in the last standard before C++11
2015-05-08T16:42:08Z drmeister: It impacted me in Clasp - I have to generate bindings for functions and for methods - everything was duplicated.
2015-05-08T16:42:54Z drmeister: And templates are an attempt at generic programming - to approximate at some level what we have with macros.
2015-05-08T16:43:42Z foom: jasom: oh man, is that proposal actually going to go into the language?
2015-05-08T16:43:51Z foom: seems like a terrible idea imo. :(
2015-05-08T16:43:52Z drmeister: Anyway, I'm not really going anywhere with this.  I thought it was interesting and affirms my world view the CL is as close to the proper way of doing things as there is.
2015-05-08T16:44:18Z foom: C++ does a much better job with namespaces than CL does.
2015-05-08T16:44:46Z jasom: CL gets it really, really close to right
2015-05-08T16:45:03Z jasom: but I've beat the dead horse of my idea to fix CL about a dozen times in here...
2015-05-08T16:45:05Z drmeister: foom: Really?  How so?  I work with both all the time.
2015-05-08T16:45:39Z dlowe: jasom: sorry, which idea?
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2015-05-08T16:45:48Z dlowe: I think package local nicknames pretty much nails it
2015-05-08T16:45:53Z jasom: dlowe: make package names symbols instead of strings
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2015-05-08T16:46:17Z dlowe: ah, the old hierarchical package idea
2015-05-08T16:46:35Z foom: drmeister: Because in CL, you can't use the same function name in two classes without them conflicting
2015-05-08T16:46:41Z jasom: dlowe: https://github.com/jasom/spm-reader
2015-05-08T16:46:54Z dlowe: yeah, I understand
2015-05-08T16:46:59Z foom: (or, knowing that they have to cooperate, and introducing a shared generic)
2015-05-08T16:47:10Z dlowe: I like less implicit state while reading code, though, not more.
2015-05-08T16:47:10Z drmeister: foom: I see - yes, C++ functions are distinguished by more than just their names.
2015-05-08T16:47:11Z foom: in C++, that just works, completely straightforwardly.
2015-05-08T16:47:21Z jasom: dlowe: it gives you package-local nicknames for free, since you can just give a nickname as a symbol in the current package
2015-05-08T16:47:39Z drmeister: foom: That has caused me some trouble because I have to distinguish overloaded functions all the time.
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2015-05-08T16:47:57Z beach: drmeister: Can you say more about your mixed feelings about the state and future of software?
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2015-05-08T16:48:32Z foom: No matter if the function is a standalong function, or a class member. x.foo(1); y.foo(1), and foo(x, 1); foo(y, 1); all works, even when x and y are unrelated objects from different authors, in different namespaces, who haven't cooperated at all.
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2015-05-08T16:48:47Z dlowe: jasom: the only real problem I see is that it breaks all the previous code :p
2015-05-08T16:48:54Z dlowe: which is kind of a downer
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2015-05-08T16:49:37Z drmeister: beach: These guys are barreling ahead.  There's more C++ coming and more code in these other languages (Java, Go, Rust etc.)
2015-05-08T16:50:03Z jasom: dlowe: yeah
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2015-05-08T16:50:40Z beach: Dinner.  I'll be back later.
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2015-05-08T16:51:37Z jasom: dlowe: though if the reader had easily pluggable interning, then this would be moot as it would be easy to switch between various methods of namespacing
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2015-05-08T16:55:38Z drmeister: foom: The price of C++ function overloading is C++ name mangling - that's pretty bad.
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2015-05-08T16:56:32Z foom: drmeister: ehhhh That's more the price of assemblers not having the ability to quote symbol names.
2015-05-08T16:56:45Z _death: it's just to keep the linker stupid
2015-05-08T16:56:57Z foom: GNU as can finally quote symbol names as of like...last year.
2015-05-08T16:57:16Z drmeister: foom: Could you elaborate?
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2015-05-08T16:58:32Z foom: i mean, instead of _ZN8CryptoPP17TF_ObjectImplBaseINS_13TF_SignerBaseENS_25TF_SignatureSchemeOptionsINS_5TF_SSINS_3PSSENS_4SHA1ENS_3RSAEiEES6_NS_8PSSR_MEMILb0ENS_10P1363_MGF1ELin1ELi0ELb0EEES5_EENS_21InvertibleRSAFunctionEE16AccessPrivateKeyEv
2015-05-08T16:58:43Z foom: it could just emit CryptoPP::TF_ObjectImplBase<CryptoPP::TF_SignerBase, CryptoPP::TF_SignatureSchemeOptions<CryptoPP::TF_SS<CryptoPP::PSS, CryptoPP::SHA1, CryptoPP::RSA, int>, CryptoPP::RSA, CryptoPP::PSSR_MEM<false, CryptoPP::P1363_MGF1, -1, 0, false>, CryptoPP::SHA1>, CryptoPP::InvertibleRSAFunction>::AccessPrivateKey()
2015-05-08T16:59:06Z foom: except that the assembler doesn't let you use all those funny characters in its symbols.
2015-05-08T17:00:24Z foom: Now it does allow it, though, using double-quotes around the name.
2015-05-08T17:00:47Z foom: in gnu as, at least. not portable of course
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2015-05-08T17:06:00Z Ober: akkad: https://gist.github.com/142125c82b8e29834c8b
2015-05-08T17:07:21Z akkad: who would want a restart from a non-existent function?
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2015-05-08T17:10:49Z Xof: people who do debugger-oriented programming
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2015-05-08T17:13:35Z Xof: I can't find the anecdote I'm thinking of
2015-05-08T17:13:58Z trilakin: ahh it's a wonderful day
2015-05-08T17:14:11Z Xof: some old Lisper who programmed by calling undefined functions and then defining them in the debugger and restarting the frame
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2015-05-08T17:17:13Z pjb: This is the "wishful programming" method.
2015-05-08T17:17:33Z nyef: A more amusing definition for "Programming by exception"?
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2015-05-08T17:21:53Z _death: nice, lisp malware: https://youtu.be/pbF0sVdOjRw?t=1318
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2015-05-08T17:34:12Z jackdaniel: if I have element of unknown type, and want to check if it's 1, eql is a best choice, right?
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2015-05-08T17:41:38Z _death: jackdaniel: sure
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2015-05-08T17:51:27Z Fare: there's an old book describing programming as "debugging the empty program"
2015-05-08T17:54:31Z jackdaniel: do you have a title? sounds like interesting well of aphorisms
2015-05-08T17:54:37Z jackdaniel: like an interesting°
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2015-05-08T17:54:57Z _death: dunno about a book, but it reminded me of a story about Minsky.. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ProgrammingInTheDebugger
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2015-05-08T18:15:43Z Adlai always enjoys venturing into c2, feels like time travel
2015-05-08T18:19:31Z failproofshark: I'm a little confused. Is there a difference between the lack and t-lack packages in quicklisp? I can find stuff on lack but not t-lack
2015-05-08T18:19:58Z failproofshark: oh nevermind
2015-05-08T18:20:01Z failproofshark: i guess there just tests
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2015-05-08T19:21:09Z freehck: People, I think that  in some cases it would be convenient to use some linear syntax for formulas. Something like (m-expression (1 + 2 + var1 * var2 / 3))
2015-05-08T19:21:22Z freehck: Maybe somebody's already written this?
2015-05-08T19:21:32Z Bike: several people. it's an exercise in several textbooks, even.
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2015-05-08T19:21:53Z LiamH: http://www.cliki.net/infix
2015-05-08T19:22:00Z freehck: thx
2015-05-08T19:23:17Z DruidGreeneyes: I kind of like prefix in that situation; it forces you to be explicit about order-of-operations
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2015-05-08T19:24:23Z freehck: DruidGreeneyes: But I realized that when formulas begin to be very-very wide it's more difficult to read them when they are sexps.
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2015-05-08T19:25:21Z freehck: And my scientific adviser cannot check my formulas by the way because of this fact. )
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2015-05-08T19:29:28Z DruidGreeneyes: freehck: that is true
2015-05-08T19:30:18Z nyef: freehck: Have a look at https://common-lisp.net/~abridgewater/lisp-tex-test-2.png if you want more "normal" syntax for formulas. d-:
2015-05-08T19:30:44Z DruidGreeneyes: freehck: I wonder, however, if that difference is inherent in the layout, or if it is just the result of using infix notation in so many other places in life
2015-05-08T19:31:36Z DruidGreeneyes: freehck: i.e. if their relative popularity were reversed, would we be having the same conversation, or would it be reversed as well?
2015-05-08T19:32:14Z DruidGreeneyes: freehck: purely for the sake of curiosity, for the record
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2015-05-08T19:36:03Z freehck: DruidGreeneyes: I think it's just a habit. For most people it's easier to use the same computation rules they get accustomed for years.
2015-05-08T19:36:18Z freehck: nyef: it's cool. really cool.
2015-05-08T19:36:32Z freehck: nyef: is it some addon for emacs?
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2015-05-08T19:38:17Z nyef: That was an experiment, using auctex preview mode.
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2015-05-08T19:38:36Z freehck: And how it was? Useful?
2015-05-08T19:39:05Z nyef: It looks cool, and I could see quite easily how to make it compile, but I don't really do that much that would benefit from such things, and I had no idea how to start on the editor side, so I left it at just that.
2015-05-08T19:39:16Z freehck: I was looking for something like this about a year ago when was trying to make my dissertation with C99/
2015-05-08T19:40:14Z nyef: Basically, on the Lisp side, there would be a #\$ reader-macro, to kick in a math-reading mode, and then the editor would do the thing that it does in auctex-preview when you have math.
2015-05-08T19:40:57Z nyef: If you move your cursor into the math block, it flips back to the TeX markup, which you can edit, and then when you're done you regenerate the laid-out version.
2015-05-08T19:41:38Z nyef: After that, it's a matter of being very clever with how your reader-macro parses things and suitable supporting macrology.
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2015-05-08T19:43:56Z nyef: WITH-TRANSFORMATION-VALUES on $T_1$, for example, was going to bind variables $M_{xx}_1$ and friends, the assignments were going to transform into lists suitable for LET, and the bracket things were going to be some sort of object that TRANSFORMATION-VALUES would destructure.
2015-05-08T19:44:23Z nyef: Something like that, at least.
2015-05-08T19:44:49Z nyef: Didn't seem worth the effort to me at the time, and still doesn't, but it was (and is) a cool idea.
2015-05-08T19:45:32Z Xach is reminded of http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3174904618055769%40naggum.net.html
2015-05-08T19:46:53Z freehck: nyef: I've just installed auctex. What function should I use to view my latex formulas right in the buffer?
2015-05-08T19:48:30Z nyef: Have a C-h a f for "preview".
2015-05-08T19:48:51Z nyef: It's been a LONG time since the last time I used that mode.
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2015-05-08T19:52:18Z freehck: Wow! )
2015-05-08T19:52:22Z freehck: nyef: Thank you! )
2015-05-08T19:53:12Z freehck: I used to switch to terminal and type there something like 'pdflatex project.tex && evince project.pdf
2015-05-08T19:53:30Z freehck: And now I see everything immediately.
2015-05-08T19:53:45Z freehck: Emacs rules. Indeed.
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2015-05-08T19:58:15Z nyef: freehck: Your other angle, btw, is to use org-mode, but the auctex previewer was a far better experience with respect to the overlays last time I checked.
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2015-05-08T20:01:02Z freehck: nyef: I see it dont create previews by fly... What's a pity. I'd like to see the matrix right after I typed it.
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2015-05-08T20:04:02Z nyef: Doesn't take much to issue the preview command, IIRC.
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2015-05-08T20:32:09Z Fare: jackdaniel, it might have been "algorithmic program debugging" by Shapiro
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2015-05-08T20:34:44Z Fare: Quadrescence is not here, but regarding "illogical pathnames", quux (the free software archive extracted from the deceased qres) has a system call qpath to abstract away pathnames
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2015-05-08T20:35:27Z Fare: in a way that logical pathnames couldn't, because we used SBCL that enforces logical pathname limitations, and we were also using pathnames incompatible with those limitations.
2015-05-08T20:35:44Z Fare: also, the setup wasn't as crazy as for logical pathnames.
2015-05-08T20:37:37Z Fare: the idea: parse namestrings into relative pathnames. Match the top directory against a hash-table of registered named directories (or recurse for hierarchical mappings).
2015-05-08T20:37:55Z pjb: oh, reimplementing logical hosts.
2015-05-08T20:37:56Z pjb: Good.
2015-05-08T20:38:03Z pjb: Now you're greenspunning in CL.
2015-05-08T20:38:07Z pjb: Pfft!
2015-05-08T20:38:08Z Fare: that could be extracted from quux — it's free software, just not usable as is.
2015-05-08T20:38:51Z Fare: no. It's a case where CL itself is an "ad hoc informally-specified bug-ridden slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."
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2015-05-08T20:40:27Z Fare: not greenspunning: it's simpler than logical pathnames, actually portable, and doesn't have weird name limitations (all upper cases, only [-A-Z0-9] in name or type, etc.)
2015-05-08T20:40:39Z jasom has implemented displaced vectors as a struct in CL before, as sbcl's builtin ones were too slow (not sure if they've gotten faster)
2015-05-08T20:41:40Z pjb: Fare: there's nothing weird in name limitations.
2015-05-08T20:42:06Z jasom: pjb: there's nothing weird in name limitations, except when you need to communicate with things that aren't lisp
2015-05-08T20:42:23Z Fare: oh, also, qpath was disabled by default at build-time, to avoid unintentionally leaking build-time pathnames into the runtime, which killed us a few times.
2015-05-08T20:42:24Z pjb: Fare: if you have to store files on a FAT system, like, says, on the Mars Odyssey, then you will be limited to 8.3 uppercase alphanumeric!
2015-05-08T20:42:46Z Fare: pjb: FAT is dead. Ding dong the witch is dead!
2015-05-08T20:42:47Z pjb: jasom: when you need to communicate, you restrict yourself to that.
2015-05-08T20:43:03Z pjb: Fare: tell that to NASA and every SDcard manufacturer.
2015-05-08T20:43:03Z Fare: as for Mars Odyssey... why have files on it at all?
2015-05-08T20:43:19Z foom: pjb: and then you won't have to worry about accessing files that aren't in that format, becaues the system doesn't support them
2015-05-08T20:43:23Z pjb: Fare: because sight of line with Earth is not available 100% of the time.
2015-05-08T20:43:24Z jasom: pjb: what if you need to communicate with a system that only has lower-case alphanumeric?  Use only digits?
2015-05-08T20:43:35Z dlowe: I bought a new motherboard recently, and you can update it without the CPU working by using a FAT-formatted thumb drive
2015-05-08T20:43:37Z foom: pjb: but for every other system, which does support other files, you need to be able to access those, too
2015-05-08T20:43:40Z Fare: pjb: why use files at all?
2015-05-08T20:43:46Z pjb: Fare: space technology is more interesting than what you see on Startrek, I'd encourage you to learn some about it.
2015-05-08T20:44:01Z foom: Fare: because it's convenient to not write your own filesystem, obviously
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2015-05-08T20:44:20Z Xach: Logical pathnames have more potential than is currently exploited, but less potential than some imagine at first glance.
2015-05-08T20:44:44Z pjb: jasom: that's why the CL specification says that the DEFAULT mapping of logical pathnames to physical pathnames is IMPLEMENTATION dependant, and that the case used should be that which is NATIVE to the physical file system.
2015-05-08T20:45:11Z pjb: jasom: and that's where a couple of implementations are bad (allegro, ccl), in that they don't convert uppercase to lowercase.
2015-05-08T20:45:22Z pjb: on unix systems, where the "native" case is lowercase.
2015-05-08T20:45:31Z foom: pjb: ...the case used natively is "both"
2015-05-08T20:45:53Z Fare: they are not "bad" -- they try to make "logical pathname" more useful by not having the pathname name limitation.
2015-05-08T20:46:04Z pjb: foom: ls /bin/*|grep '[A-Z]'|wc -c --> 0
2015-05-08T20:46:04Z pjb:  
2015-05-08T20:46:27Z Bike: why is there only supposed to be one physical file system
2015-05-08T20:46:41Z pjb: Bike: I didn't assume anything.
2015-05-08T20:46:56Z Fare: if the goal is to locate source code, then asdf does it more portably, with less setup headache than logical pathnames. If the code is anything else... it's not portable at all, and the "host" thingie conflicts with any other use of hosts in pathnames.
2015-05-08T20:46:57Z foom: pjb: great, I'm glad you only ever need to open files in /bin
2015-05-08T20:46:57Z pjb: "the physical file system." = "the physical file system in consideration".
2015-05-08T20:47:10Z foom: And not, say, /usr/bin/X11.
2015-05-08T20:47:19Z Bike: okay, but i mean, each lisp implementation might have to use more than one file system.
2015-05-08T20:47:28Z pjb: Bike: This depends on the the  current directory in the path (several file system may have to be considered when processing a pathname).
2015-05-08T20:47:39Z Bike: like if i use ext3 at my nasa job but have to transfer files to the mars explorer.
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2015-05-08T20:47:54Z Bike: or is it esa? whatever.
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2015-05-08T20:48:33Z pjb: In anycase, it is assumed that lisp programmers are not idiots, and don't try to use logical pathname to access existing file systems.
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2015-05-08T20:48:43Z Fare: in any case, "logical pathnames" kind of made sense on lisp machines, or machines where a sysadmin would manage that for you. They just don't make sense in the context of modern computing without a sysadmin.
2015-05-08T20:49:07Z Bike: why did you even bring up mapping logical pathname mapping if you're just going to say you shouldn't use it
2015-05-08T20:49:15Z pjb: Fare: this is not a reason to use them when they don't apply or to break them to force a usage they should not have.
2015-05-08T20:49:38Z foom: I'm glad everyone agrees that logical pathnames should never be used. :)
2015-05-08T20:49:44Z Fare: god forbids that you include a version number in a filename  protocol-V1.2.lisp ? oops.
2015-05-08T20:49:45Z pjb: Bike: because there are cases when you want to use them and unfortunately, divergence of implementation restrict their usefulness.
2015-05-08T20:49:55Z pjb: foom: I almost only use logical pathnames.
2015-05-08T20:49:58Z Bike: but you just... did you not just present that as a good thing
2015-05-08T20:50:27Z pjb: Fare: or mapping versions to file.type.~version~
2015-05-08T20:50:43Z nyef: ... The Mars Explorer? Is this a new version of the TI LispM family? (-;
2015-05-08T20:51:12Z Xach: Fare: what problem does that introduce?
2015-05-08T20:53:05Z Fare: Xach: forbidden in the spec, enforced by sbcl
2015-05-08T20:53:29Z Xach: Fare: what is forbidden?
2015-05-08T20:53:55Z Fare: the spec says all case is converted to uppercase, and the "." in the name component is forbidden
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2015-05-08T20:54:54Z Fare: so you'll have to manually introduce a case mapping for every single file with non-standard case, and can't have a . in the "logical" pathname.
2015-05-08T20:55:21Z Xach: Yes, logical pathnames are for situations where you can reasonably manually map every occurrence of a logical pathname in your source code.
2015-05-08T20:57:54Z pjb: Fare: you are under the false impression that logical pathnames should have any direct relationship with physical pathname. They don't. They're LOGICAL.  That means they could have been specified as being ASN.1 identifier or any other kind of shit. It just doesn't matter: you just have to go thru the translation to find the real physical pathname.
2015-05-08T20:58:40Z pjb: So be happy that you can use a string of words as logical names for your files, and ensure the translations do what you want.
2015-05-08T20:59:14Z Xach wants to see a portability layer for loading translations
2015-05-08T20:59:20Z Fare: http://fare.tunes.org/files/asdf3/asdf3-2014.html#%28part._pathnames%29
2015-05-08T20:59:25Z pjb: Now we can argue about the default translation (which is what I did and do), and we can argue about the power of the language available to specify the translation (which I would agree, is somewhat limited).
2015-05-08T21:00:05Z pjb: Xach: or write a CDR to have all implementations follow the same convention for load-logical-pathname-translations.
2015-05-08T21:00:30Z Xach: CDR is where ideas go to die.
2015-05-08T21:00:52Z Fare: and guarantees better than O(N) traversal for use or modification of the translation layer?
2015-05-08T21:00:57Z pjb: Xach: don't be pessimistic.  Just use the CDR to hit the head of the implementors until they implement it.
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2015-05-08T21:01:18Z pjb: Fare: pfft! When you see that ccl uses alists for reader-macros :-)
2015-05-08T21:01:40Z Fare: pjb: that method hasn't proven to work faster than new implementations appear and disappear.
2015-05-08T21:01:41Z Xach: pjb: That is an ineffective method of persuasion.
2015-05-08T21:02:05Z pjb: Issue #999: CDR#nn is not implemented.
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2015-05-08T21:02:33Z Fare: "Closed: Works as intended"
2015-05-08T21:03:00Z Fare: or "please pay us $5000 and we'll start to talk"
2015-05-08T21:03:26Z pjb: There's always the menace of a fork :-)
2015-05-08T21:04:03Z dim: what about having a good sales pitch about why implementing the CDR is worthy of ding, in terms of cost and benefits?
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2015-05-08T21:04:06Z Xach: pjb: i found peter seibel's talk about how standardization actually happens to be enlightening in this regard.
2015-05-08T21:04:17Z dim: if you don't have that anyway, why would you even consider writing the CDR in the first place?
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2015-05-08T21:04:41Z Xach: dim: the mistaken impression that writing a document obligates another party to conform to your wishes
2015-05-08T21:05:04Z dim: is there a world where this idea might be practical or true?
2015-05-08T21:05:29Z pjb: Once the doc is written, you can hire interns to implement it and provide the patch.
2015-05-08T21:05:34Z dim: I need to make sure I don't show up there, or that I don't know how to read their language before showing up
2015-05-08T21:05:48Z pjb: And if the patch is rejected, you can fork it and start updating libraries to use the CDR.
2015-05-08T21:05:55Z dim: pjb: it still doesn't solve the main problem: why should anyone but you care about it?
2015-05-08T21:06:03Z Xach: dim: did you listen to peter's talk on the topic? so good.
2015-05-08T21:06:09Z dim: not yet
2015-05-08T21:06:11Z pjb: Xach: url?
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2015-05-08T21:07:09Z Xach: https://soundcloud.com/zach-beane/peter-seibel-common-lisp
2015-05-08T21:08:00Z pjb: thanks.
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2015-05-08T21:08:46Z Xach: dim: one angle: huge customer said "get your shit together or we stop paying $$$ for lisp projects"
2015-05-08T21:08:50Z dim: mmm, won't be able to spend 1h on that just now, unfortunately
2015-05-08T21:09:05Z dim: Xach: I read about that story before, yes
2015-05-08T21:09:14Z Xach: peter goes into details
2015-05-08T21:11:12Z dim: saving that for later...
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2015-05-08T21:11:24Z dim: thx!
2015-05-08T21:12:24Z dim: next on my list is providing a minimal docker image for pgloader, I'm fed up of bug reports about missing .so files
2015-05-08T21:13:15Z Xach: sano is making a vagrant file that has every foreign library needed by quicklisp configured
2015-05-08T21:13:30Z Xach: that's the goal, anyway...it is difficult because there are 10 or so projects that require manual installation
2015-05-08T21:13:42Z Xach hopes to use that work sometime in the future
2015-05-08T21:13:45Z dim: I guess a docker image (I target < 100MB, I would like to achieve 35MB knowing that /usr/bin/pgloader is in the 20MB) is easier to build than replacing the .so with native lisp code (ssl, freetds, sqlite)
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2015-05-08T21:34:29Z jasom: dim: I'm guessing freetds is what's most often missing?
2015-05-08T21:35:06Z dim: well I hacked the image to only load it when the source is an mssql database, same for sqlite, so actually what's most often missing is openssl
2015-05-08T21:35:24Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/226 for an example
2015-05-08T21:36:23Z dim: oh, it might be that openssl-devel is needed, actually
2015-05-08T21:37:48Z dim: can't remember.
2015-05-08T21:37:53Z dim: time to sleep, then
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2015-05-08T21:41:38Z akkad: could you store lisp code as a string, and encrypt it, then deliver a binary that could decrypt and readl/eval the code on the fly?
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2015-05-08T21:54:19Z axion: sure
2015-05-08T21:54:36Z axion: you can serialize pretty much any lisp code to your own binary representation with conspack
2015-05-08T21:56:17Z akkad: perfect thanks.
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2015-05-08T21:56:42Z akkad: dumb ssh key script to ensure developers are passphrasing their keys, and the current script they just cheat and fake the results
2015-05-08T21:58:32Z eudoxia: minion: memo for kami: the reasons i used that naming convention for class names were 1) i liked it and 2) at the time i mostly used fukamachiware, which uses that convention, so it was a natural fit. recently i've moved away from it to bare class names, since it was pointed out to me that i was essentially splitting a chunk of the lisp community into a ghetto. but i have not updated all my old projects.
2015-05-08T21:58:32Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell kami when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-05-08T21:58:32Z minion: eudoxia, memo from kami: I will then fork trivial-ssh and create a pull request with my sftp additions
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2015-05-08T21:58:43Z eudoxia: cool thanks minion
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2015-05-08T22:00:43Z kephra: http://kephra.de/pix/ArmedBear.jpg <- btw, I found a nice picture on my harddrive ;-)
2015-05-08T22:00:57Z kephra: *oups* wc
2015-05-08T22:01:40Z eudoxia: i thought it was going to be a joke about ABCL haha
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2015-05-08T23:18:18Z jasom: Xach: the seibel talk on standardization is great
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2015-05-08T23:35:27Z Xach: ain't it?
2015-05-08T23:35:32Z Xach: i know i really enjoyed hearing it live
2015-05-08T23:35:45Z Xach: including the interruptions from old folks with axes still ready to grind
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2015-05-08T23:40:20Z kephra: wikipedia claims:  In any language which supports closures and proper tail calls, it is possible to write programs in continuation-passing style and manually implement call/cc.
2015-05-08T23:40:42Z Bike: yeah, sure. just pass the continuation as an argument to everything.
2015-05-08T23:40:44Z kephra: I wonder: did someone write a marco set, to do this automatically?
2015-05-08T23:41:07Z Bike: cl-cont, i believe
2015-05-08T23:41:08Z Shinmera: There's cl-cont.
2015-05-08T23:41:19Z Shinmera: And On Lisp discusses writing your own system.
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2015-05-08T23:42:28Z kephra: *thanks* Bike & Shinmera
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