2015-04-22T00:00:38Z nyef: It can be. It's my log for most of writing the ARM backend for SBCL.
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2015-04-22T00:01:08Z drmeister: I'm really excited about this.  If speeding clasp up now means writing Common Lisp code to generate more efficient code - that's great.
2015-04-22T00:01:15Z drmeister: I love writing Common Lisp code.
2015-04-22T00:01:27Z nyef: It, ah, ends 363 days ago.
2015-04-22T00:01:28Z drmeister: C++ ... not so much.
2015-04-22T00:01:51Z drmeister loves him some macros.
2015-04-22T00:02:23Z nyef: Shortly before giving up on the whole "altstack" thing and moving the lisp stack pointer out of the register set and into a static symbol.
2015-04-22T00:02:38Z drmeister: beach taught me a use case for compiler macros as well.
2015-04-22T00:03:43Z nyef: Oh, DEFTRANSFORM. That's also fun.
2015-04-22T00:03:45Z drmeister: This was where you were perplexed as to how it had ever worked before you rewrote it?
2015-04-22T00:05:17Z nyef: No, I knew how it had worked originally, this was where I realized that any approach that involved monkeying the system stack pointer was going to lead to PAIN, and so something else had to be done.
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2015-04-22T00:06:06Z nyef: So, add DEFTRANSFORM to your list. It's similar to a compiler-macro, but you also get access to derived-type information.
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2015-04-22T00:06:43Z drmeister: I have to talk to beach about type inference - that's derived-type information - correct?
2015-04-22T00:07:02Z nyef: Yes.
2015-04-22T00:07:28Z drmeister: He's working on it in Cleavir - I'm not really clear on how far along it is.
2015-04-22T00:07:50Z nyef: And, as I said earlier, there's a hook using DEFKNOWN and DEFOPTIMIZER to allow specifying a type-deriver for a function.
2015-04-22T00:08:06Z drmeister: I've also got an interesting case where I have a lot of type information in my C++ function prototypes - I wonder if that will be useful for type inference and if so - how I will get it out to Clasp.
2015-04-22T00:08:08Z nyef: "If the arguments are thus and such, then the result is going to be..."
2015-04-22T00:08:17Z drmeister: Oh wait - I have clang build into clasp.
2015-04-22T00:09:05Z drmeister: I'll build it into my static analyzer.
2015-04-22T00:09:58Z nyef: You might also want to have a quick look at SYS:SRC;COMPILER;ALIENCOMP.LISP.
2015-04-22T00:10:50Z nyef: "Oh, you're doing an %ALIEN-FUNCALL. First, blow up if the type information is not available and constant. Second, here's the return type!"
2015-04-22T00:12:49Z drmeister: nyef: This is awesome - thanks.
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2015-04-22T00:16:52Z drmeister: I've reached a new level of exhaustion - I'm off to bed.  Thanks again.
2015-04-22T00:16:56Z nyef: Sleep well.
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2015-04-22T00:37:01Z Brozo: sup
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2015-04-22T00:58:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: Is there a list of useful repl functions like time and documentation?
2015-04-22T00:58:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: useful for the repl
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2015-04-22T01:03:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: This seems adequate. Well, this seems
2015-04-22T01:03:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: copy paste, mess up, http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_the_envir_t_dictionary.html
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2015-04-22T01:17:11Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: cf: com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive and com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.browser.
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2015-04-22T02:29:30Z C6248: &j lispgames
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2015-04-22T02:37:05Z akkad: irc is hard
2015-04-22T02:37:53Z pjb: So hard!  Let's go shopping.
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2015-04-22T02:42:37Z C6248: let's go shopping a new teclado
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2015-04-22T02:42:59Z C6248: but here the costs are higher than in America
2015-04-22T02:44:08Z C6248: so it's not suitable... XD
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2015-04-22T03:05:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: If I define a method using :after, :before, or :around without defining a "base" method, what should happen?
2015-04-22T03:05:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: I can't find anything on it in CLHS.
2015-04-22T03:06:32Z pjb: (when (next-method-p) (call-next-method))
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2015-04-22T03:07:17Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: https://pupeno.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/common-lisp-method-composition.png
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2015-04-22T03:10:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: But, if a a primary method doesn't exist then the arrows never get a chance to branch in that graph.
2015-04-22T03:10:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: if a*
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2015-04-22T03:12:11Z pjb: Hence the (when (next-method-p).
2015-04-22T03:12:29Z Fare: can an :around method skip the non-existent primary method?
2015-04-22T03:12:49Z pjb: Yes, it can not (call-next-method).
2015-04-22T03:13:56Z Fare: what I thought
2015-04-22T03:14:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: Alright, that makes sense. Thanks.
2015-04-22T03:14:55Z pjb: See 7.6.6.2 Standard Method Combination
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2015-04-22T03:18:54Z JokesOnYou77: If I have a nested loop over the same list, where the inner loop starts from the ( + 1 index-of-the-outer-loop) is the runtime still O(n^2)?
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2015-04-22T03:19:27Z pjb: Yes.
2015-04-22T03:19:41Z JokesOnYou77: It works out to Sum(n -1) from i =  1 to (n -1) but I can't figure the big-O time
2015-04-22T03:19:47Z JokesOnYou77: pjb, ty :)
2015-04-22T03:19:50Z pjb: you will process n^2/2 elements and O(n^2/2) = O(n^2).
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2015-04-22T03:21:23Z JokesOnYou77: Ahhh, didn't realize it worked out to n^2/2 hmmm...ty.
2015-04-22T03:21:59Z JokesOnYou77: funny how big a difference it makes in real time.  Though I supposes that could be expressed in one of the other various little-o, or omega varieties.
2015-04-22T03:22:06Z pjb: Simple geometry: you have a square, you cut it in the diagonal so you get a rectangle. base=n height=n surface(number of cells)=n*n/2
2015-04-22T03:24:19Z pjb: s/rectangle/triangle/
2015-04-22T03:24:22Z JokesOnYou77: That was the perfect explanation for me!  I completely git it now.  I was using it (at least in one place) to create an association matrix which is often a symmetric matrix, but I cut out the bottom half to shorten run time and your explanation actually looks like my matrix result
2015-04-22T03:25:31Z pjb: about computation real time, the thing is that O(.) doesn't say much, for one thing (the constants matter), and that with current memory architectures, caches matter a lot.
2015-04-22T03:25:58Z pjb: Check the triptic: http://www.ilikebigbits.com/blog/2014/4/21/the-myth-of-ram-part-i
2015-04-22T03:27:00Z Fare: so some design review: can someone look at the latest cl-launch patch? https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/xcvb/cl-launch/commit/cee6caa02e2822aee0c794d4e1b6805157a3c3ac
2015-04-22T03:27:04Z JokesOnYou77: I'll give it a read.  I never actually took algorithms in school so I may have missed some of the end-lessons kinds of things that would come at the close of such a class
2015-04-22T03:27:29Z Fare: basically, I'm adding options -sm and -Ds to cl-launch as well as -DE
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2015-04-22T03:28:17Z Fare: but I'm a bit worried that the design is more complex than desired
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2015-04-22T03:29:38Z Fare: I could simplify a bit by having -sm and -Ds actually change the current package, but maybe that's the wrong thing.
2015-04-22T03:30:11Z Fare: I'm also wondering if -sm should be renamed -sE (or -spE if the current package is changed)
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2015-04-22T03:30:55Z Fare: and whether it's OK to use main as the default name of the entry function, being funcall'ed with argv as argument.
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2015-04-22T03:31:35Z pjb: Yes main as the default entry point of a program seems ok.
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2015-04-22T03:32:03Z Fare: funcall'ed with argv rather than apply'ed with argv?
2015-04-22T03:32:18Z Fare: that's the standard set by Xach's buildapp, I believe
2015-04-22T03:32:18Z pjb: argv envv?
2015-04-22T03:33:19Z Fare: env is not portably available on all lisps the way argv was already such a pain to get (especially argv0, that I'm *not* passing to main but must be gotten by calling (argv0))
2015-04-22T03:33:19Z pjb: Implementations usually have their own API for argv andn envv, that they process themselves first.
2015-04-22T03:33:54Z Fare: some implementations don't let you access the entire environment, iirc
2015-04-22T03:34:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm trying to chain several methods together, but all the :before methods don't seem to be run. When I had everything under one large method it worked fine. Is there anything obviously wrong with this code? http://paste.lisp.org/display/147328
2015-04-22T03:34:13Z Fare: but I may be wrong and just not have tried hard enough
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2015-04-22T03:34:22Z pjb: In my (clisp) scripts, I have (main ext:*args*) ; So indeed, I would say it's the right thing to do.
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2015-04-22T03:34:53Z pjb: The thing is that in anycase, command argument lists need further parsing, so there's little point of using apply.
2015-04-22T03:35:04Z Fare: in any case, buildapp set the standard to just call the provided main function with an argv list as single argument, excluding argv0
2015-04-22T03:35:12Z pjb: And also, call-arguments-limit.
2015-04-22T03:35:14Z Fare: which is pretty reasonable.
2015-04-22T03:35:30Z pjb: yes.
2015-04-22T03:35:37Z Fare: yes, that's a good argument against apply in this case as a portable interface
2015-04-22T03:35:38Z nyef: Petit_Dejeuner: Yes. You only get ONE method named UPDATE :BEFORE ((PLAYER-GUN PLAYER-GUN)).
2015-04-22T03:35:44Z pillton: Fare: lisp-executable takes a different route by using DEFINE-PROGRAM.
2015-04-22T03:36:04Z Fare: pillton: I haven't looked at it in years. What does it do?
2015-04-22T03:36:05Z nyef: Petit_Dejeuner: Or, more specifically, one method with a given qualifier and set of specializers.
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2015-04-22T03:36:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: nyef, Thanks. I guess I'll have to turn these into functions.
2015-04-22T03:36:20Z Fare: asdf also comes bundled with program-op, these days.
2015-04-22T03:36:50Z nyef: Petit_Dejeuner: Or a set of mixins, or...
2015-04-22T03:37:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: What do common lisp mixins look like?
2015-04-22T03:37:28Z nyef: Normal classes, just fairly minimal.
2015-04-22T03:37:43Z hjs: Has anyone seen GC problems with SBCL?  I'm testing numerical code on arrays and lists of double-floats, fixnums, etc, and I find sbcl on Linux often crashing into LDB with a lack of memory.
2015-04-22T03:38:10Z nyef: The point is that you get to use multiple inheritance to add behavior, and you can stick a :before method on each mixin...
2015-04-22T03:38:22Z nyef: hjs: Large data sets?
2015-04-22T03:38:37Z pillton: Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147329
2015-04-22T03:38:39Z Fare: Petit_Dejeuner, see "traits" in other languages
2015-04-22T03:38:52Z nyef: hjs: 32-bit or 64-bit system, and are you doing anything with --dynamic-space-size or whatever the parameter is called?
2015-04-22T03:38:52Z Fare: Petit_Dejeuner, and see how lisp-interface-library uses them.
2015-04-22T03:39:18Z pillton: Fare: It is a bit different to the way your cl-launch works, but you should get the idea of what DEFINE-PROGRAM does.
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2015-04-22T03:39:26Z nyef: Petit_Dejeuner: Or have a look at the various CLOS mixin classes.
2015-04-22T03:40:13Z Fare: pillton, does he somehow fork before he save-lisp-and-die?
2015-04-22T03:40:39Z pillton: Fare: I am the author. No, I start a new lisp and communicate with it.
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2015-04-22T03:41:03Z hjs: nyef: a couple of 1mb arrays of double-floats, looping 100 times multiplying them element-wise into a new array.
2015-04-22T03:41:42Z Fare: yeah, starting a new lisp works... but can be a configuration HELL if you're using a non-default configuration.
2015-04-22T03:41:45Z hjs: nyef: Just running sbcl on linux, SBCL 1.1.14.debian
2015-04-22T03:42:07Z nyef: Hrm... So, depending on how that goes, you might have (* 300 8) => 2.4 gigs of memory allocated?
2015-04-22T03:42:10Z Fare: i.e. your sbcl is not in $PATH, you have a different $CL_SOURCE_REGISTRY, etc.
2015-04-22T03:42:30Z nyef: hjs: Which CPU type?
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2015-04-22T03:42:54Z nyef: Or, failing that, what's the value of sb-vm:n-word-bits?
2015-04-22T03:43:07Z pillton: Fare: I send the contents of asdf:*central-registry* to the new machine.
2015-04-22T03:43:08Z hjs: nyef: What's weird is that each such loop is in a different function.  The 1st fcn runs, then the 2nd function which does the same, but slightly differently, crashes.
2015-04-22T03:43:16Z Fare: pillton, that's so ASDF1.
2015-04-22T03:43:26Z pillton: Fare: Keep on mind I finished lisp-executable in 2011 or so.
2015-04-22T03:43:38Z Fare: pillton, no offense meant.
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2015-04-22T03:44:11Z Fare: lisp-executable was a notable advance.
2015-04-22T03:44:20Z pillton: Fare: I actually prefer *central-registry*. I do find the (:tree (:home )) appealing though.
2015-04-22T03:44:41Z hjs: nyef: Basically, I'm trying to optimize vectorized operations, comparing Antik to common-lisp-statistics, etc.
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2015-04-22T03:44:55Z Fare: I understand the appeal of the central-registry, especially after its main issues were fixed by gwking
2015-04-22T03:45:04Z hjs: nyef: Example code:  (defun testgenericcls (n m)   (declare (type (integer 1 10000000) n m))   (let ((v1 (cls:iseq m)) 	(v2 (cls:rseq 0 .1 m)))     (time (progn (dotimes (i n) 		   (setq v1 (cls:* v1 v2)))))     (reduce #'+ v1)))
2015-04-22T03:45:10Z Fare: but it just doesn't scale to end-user-dom.
2015-04-22T03:45:19Z pillton: Fare: Cheers. My point was that DEFINE-PROGRAM hides the interface on how one invokes a program.
2015-04-22T03:45:33Z hjs: nyef: ~/lisp/cls$ uname -a Linux hjstein-ThinkPad-X1-Carbon-2nd 3.13.0-37-generic #64-Ubuntu SMP Mon Sep 22 21:28:38 UTC 2014 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
2015-04-22T03:45:53Z nyef: Okay, so a 64-bit system, which means probably the larger heap sizes.
2015-04-22T03:46:07Z hjs: nyef: That's what I'd expect.
2015-04-22T03:46:07Z pillton: Fare: I found the most annoying thing with generating command line programs wasn't generating the command line program. It was parsing the command line arguments.
2015-04-22T03:47:13Z nyef: What happens if you call (sb-ext:dynamic-space-size)?
2015-04-22T03:47:22Z Fare: pillton, I like the design of lisp-executable, within its constraints. But it was both too much and not enough for what I was aiming for: I wanted to work on every single platform, and to close rather than keep open the configuration HELL
2015-04-22T03:47:41Z Fare: pillton, yes, I wrote command-line-arguments for that
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2015-04-22T03:48:08Z hjs: * (sb-ext:dynamic-space-size)  1073741824
2015-04-22T03:48:09Z Fare: I also wrote N "lightweight" programs that have their own mini-library for that purpose
2015-04-22T03:48:16Z nyef: So, a one-gig heap.
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2015-04-22T03:48:35Z Fare: and I recently hacked CLON so it plays nicer with the build system.
2015-04-22T03:48:45Z Fare: (hopefully Didier will merge after ELS)
2015-04-22T03:49:17Z Fare: I'd like Didier to complete CLON enough that I can tell everyone "just use CLON".
2015-04-22T03:49:19Z nyef: As a simple "throw more memory at the problem" approach, try starting sbcl with --dynamic-space-size 4096
2015-04-22T03:49:25Z hjs: But I would have thought a low memory would have triggered a gc, which should have prevented an out of memory, because I only have 2 arrays referenced at any given time.
2015-04-22T03:49:31Z pillton: Fare: Fair enough.
2015-04-22T03:49:34Z nyef: Or even --dynamic-space-size 8192
2015-04-22T03:49:43Z hjs: Well, actually, 3.
2015-04-22T03:49:44Z Fare: CLON is not lightweight at all, though — and its default mode of operation involves loading FFI code.
2015-04-22T03:49:47Z nyef: Id've thought you'd've had... yeah, three.
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2015-04-22T03:50:03Z nyef: But there's also possible data retention, the arrays might not be as small as you think they are, and so on.
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2015-04-22T03:50:28Z Fare: so I'm still somewhat partial to my command-line-arguments library, though I believe it's better for it to be deprecated by CLON.
2015-04-22T03:50:49Z Fare: Didier had a bit too much fun writing CLON.
2015-04-22T03:50:51Z nyef: Which CLON? Weren't there three or four projects by that name?
2015-04-22T03:51:14Z Fare: (ql:quickload "com.dvlsoft.clon")
2015-04-22T03:51:46Z nyef: hjs: Your other fun new tools should be ROOM and SB-EXT:GC, particularly with the :FULL T option.
2015-04-22T03:51:48Z hjs: Still, 1,000,000 elements, worst case 64 bit pointers to boxed 64 bit doubles is only 24mb/structure.
2015-04-22T03:52:28Z nyef: And if 100 of them are hanging around, that's another story.
2015-04-22T03:52:34Z Fare: pillton, I see you have a gnu-style argv parser in lisp-executable
2015-04-22T03:52:35Z pjb: But you would use a specialized array.
2015-04-22T03:52:40Z pjb: So only 8MB.
2015-04-22T03:52:53Z pjb: 24 milli bits seems very low for a structure.
2015-04-22T03:53:07Z pillton: Fare: Yeah. It was meant to be configurable.
2015-04-22T03:53:31Z hjs: I'm testing different things - lists, general arrays, arrays of double-floats, etc.  And yes, an array of double-floats should only be about 8mb
2015-04-22T03:54:15Z pjb: That said, if I was a teacher, I'd give exercises to my students with actual structures using 512 millibits :-)
2015-04-22T03:54:31Z pillton: Fare: The only thing I did wrong with lisp-executable was that I only wrote a syntactic interface for creating programs.
2015-04-22T03:54:33Z nyef: hjs: So, I have basically no idea what's going on with your system, but it sounds like you have far more stuff allocated or being retained than you think you do, especially around those loops.
2015-04-22T03:54:39Z hjs: But, with a loop like (dotimes (i 100) (setq v1 (antik:* v1 v2))), there shouldn't be 100 hanging out, unless either there's a memory leak or the GC is starting up too late.
2015-04-22T03:54:46Z pillton: Fare: I have a library now which generates command line programs and it is a pain.
2015-04-22T03:55:20Z nyef: hjs: Or antik:* creates a structure that refers to its arguments.
2015-04-22T03:55:24Z Fare: on top of lisp-executable?
2015-04-22T03:55:44Z nyef: That might count as a memory leak, but it might be a deliberate design decision.
2015-04-22T03:55:59Z nyef: (I don't know if it does or not, just that it's a plausibility.)
2015-04-22T03:56:01Z hjs: Runs fine with a (gc :full t) after each test call.
2015-04-22T03:56:26Z hjs: None of the functions hold onto the memory.
2015-04-22T03:56:29Z pillton: Fare: Yes. https://github.com/markcox80/chains/blob/master/src/pee-programs.lisp#L188
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2015-04-22T03:56:37Z nyef: Hrm... Right, also try with a (sb-sys:scrub-control-stack) in place of the call to GC.
2015-04-22T03:57:09Z pillton: Fare: That is the wrong way to do it. I hadn't read the AMOP book when I wrote lisp-executable.
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2015-04-22T03:57:45Z Fare: I'm not sure there's a right way yet
2015-04-22T03:58:08Z Fare: but what I like is that the API be defined in terms of a lisp function, and then you put a shell skin on that function.
2015-04-22T03:58:23Z Fare: this way, my main use case is at the REPL
2015-04-22T03:58:31Z pillton: Fare: AMOP's argument for the syntactic, glue and object layers is very convincing in my opinion.
2015-04-22T03:58:47Z Fare: and if I need the functionality from the shell, I can keep thinking in Lisp terms.
2015-04-22T03:58:48Z hjs: nyef: Thanks.  I guess I'll report it to the sbcl people...
2015-04-22T03:58:53Z pillton: Fare: lisp-executable has PROGRAM-FUNCALL for repl cases.
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2015-04-22T03:59:26Z nyef: Yeah, I'm not up for tangling with that GC any more tonight.
2015-04-22T03:59:45Z nyef: Though I did learn something new about the heap size, so thank you.
2015-04-22T03:59:56Z Fare: I like think in the opposite way: the basic API is the funcall, and the define-program is the second-class citizen.
2015-04-22T04:00:30Z pillton: Fare: Ok. Fair enough. What I wanted to see was something like a manpage.
2015-04-22T04:01:18Z Fare: although for the asdf build and test scripts, where I had to be backward compatible with existing shell-scripts and makefile invocations, I used a hybrid strategy, that is way over-engineered.
2015-04-22T04:01:29Z Fare: (see tools/ in the minimakefile branch of asdf)
2015-04-22T04:03:36Z pillton: Fare: Will do. I have to go now. Thanks for the chat.
2015-04-22T04:04:01Z Zhivago: hjs: Are you perhaps producing lexical closures unintentionally?
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2015-04-22T04:14:43Z nyef: Zhivago: Looks a little bit like stack conservatism to me, hence why I asked for a test with scrub-control-stack instead of GC.
2015-04-22T04:19:53Z hjs: Zhivago: Hard to see how. The loops are in functions like (defun test1 (m n)  ... (dotimes (i 100) (setq v1 (v* v1 v2)))).
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2015-04-22T04:20:28Z hjs: nyef: As for using  (sb-sys:scrub-control-stack), still exhausts heap on 2nd test.
2015-04-22T04:20:59Z nyef: Interesting.
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2015-04-22T04:21:29Z pjb: hjs: does v* modify v1?
2015-04-22T04:21:56Z nyef: What happens if you "just" do two loops with a call to (room) before and after the call to (gc :full t)?
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2015-04-22T04:22:24Z nyef: It should give you some fairly direct information on how much memory is used by one loop and how much is freed by the GC.
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2015-04-22T04:22:46Z Zhivago: Does that produce a result relating v1 and v2 to the new value of v1?
2015-04-22T04:23:15Z hjs: Not exactly...  Here's an example multiplier:
2015-04-22T04:23:22Z hjs: (defun v3* (a b)
2015-04-22T04:23:29Z hjs:   (cond ((and (typep a '(vector double-float))
2015-04-22T04:23:36Z hjs: 	      (typep b '(vector double-float)))
2015-04-22T04:23:42Z hjs: 	 (let ((a a) (b b) (c (make-array (length a) :element-type 'double-float)))
2015-04-22T04:23:48Z hjs: 	   (declare (type (simple-array  double-float (*)) a b c))
2015-04-22T04:23:54Z hjs: 	   (dotimes (i (length a))
2015-04-22T04:24:01Z hjs: 	     (setf (aref c i) (* (aref a i) (aref b i))))
2015-04-22T04:24:07Z hjs: 	   c))
2015-04-22T04:24:14Z hjs: 	(t (antik:* a b))))
2015-04-22T04:24:27Z nyef: ... This is why we have a paste service.
2015-04-22T04:24:39Z hjs: Didn't know about that... :)
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2015-04-22T04:25:20Z hjs: How do I not paste like a moron when using https://webchat.freenode.net/?
2015-04-22T04:25:38Z pjb: by using http://paste.lisp.org/new instead.
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2015-04-22T04:27:12Z pjb: hjs: how is v* related to v3*?
2015-04-22T04:27:19Z White_Flame: maybe the topic should be updated as "post code with http://paste.lisp.org/" instead of just the naked URL
2015-04-22T04:28:25Z hjs: They're all doing something along the lines of (dotimes (i (length a)) (setf (aref c i) (* (aref a i) (aref b i))))
2015-04-22T04:28:39Z pjb: that's where your problem resides.
2015-04-22T04:28:42Z Bike: does that actually give you any advantage over (map '(simple-array double-float) #'* a b)?
2015-04-22T04:28:42Z nyef: White_Flame: "There's a topic?"
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2015-04-22T04:29:04Z pjb: If you call (setf v1 (v* v1 v2)), then you should not make-array and instead call (modify* v1 v2)
2015-04-22T04:29:30Z pjb: and do something along the lines of (setf (aref a i) (* (aref a i) (aref b i))) ; no c here!
2015-04-22T04:30:24Z Bike: or (map-into v1 #'* v1 v2)?
2015-04-22T04:30:41Z hjs: Preceeded by (let ((c (make-array (length a) :element-type 'double-float))...
2015-04-22T04:32:00Z pjb: nope.
2015-04-22T04:32:03Z pjb: no make-array.
2015-04-22T04:32:18Z hjs: Yes.  (map-into ...) should be optimal if the semantics of the v* fcns didn't require returning a new object.
2015-04-22T04:32:34Z pjb: you got it wrong.
2015-04-22T04:32:50Z hjs: Huh?
2015-04-22T04:32:55Z pjb: You don't call function whose semantics is not what you want.  You WRITE functions whose semantics is what you want!
2015-04-22T04:32:58Z Bike: what pjb is saying is that if you're doing (setq x (do-something-with x)) you might as well just have a destructive version of do-something-with instead of haveint it allocate new stuff.
2015-04-22T04:35:18Z hjs: Of course.  But this is just test code for comparing different ways of multiplying vectors & lists elementwise.  The point is to basically have numerics handling in lisp similar to what's in matlab (i.e. - what was in xlispstat), where one could do (* '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)), or (* #(1 2 3), #(4 5 6)), etc.
2015-04-22T04:35:47Z pjb: then don't complain about the garbage.
2015-04-22T04:36:51Z hjs: I'm not complaining about it creating a lot of garbage.  I'm complaining about it not GCing it & instead falling into LDB with "heap exhausted".
2015-04-22T04:36:59Z Bike: i assume you're aware of the LAPACK etc interfaces that already exist
2015-04-22T04:39:05Z hjs: Yes.  The idea is to make it easy to work on vectors and matrices while giving a route for it to be faster.  Multiplying lists elementwise is necessarily slow because generic * must be used on each element.  It'd be nice if the compiler could figure out to specialize when having, for example, arrays of double-floats.  And it mostly does, although I'd think it should recognize this case with (map ...), but it doesn't.
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2015-04-22T04:40:20Z hjs: So, the idea is to get the code to pick as specialized a version of * that it can, so if someone needs speed, they can switch from lists to arrays of double-floats, and at least become competitive with something like matlab.
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2015-04-22T04:40:57Z Bike: are you going to write sparse matrices, gaussian elimination, all that junk?
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2015-04-22T04:43:07Z hjs: Not planning on it...  I got involved because I used to use xlispstat, which already had this, but was based on xlisp - not CL, byte compiler, etc.
2015-04-22T04:43:24Z Bike: ic.
2015-04-22T04:43:51Z hjs: xlispstat is aging, so I started looking around to see if anyone had ported it to common lisp so that I could at least compile my code.
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2015-04-22T04:44:47Z hjs: Found the packages Antik & common-lisp-statistics.  The former has vectorized operations & the latter attempts to be a port, but it's incomplete.
2015-04-22T04:45:08Z Bike: it would be a neat trick if sbcl realized that (map '(array double-float) something some-arrays-of-dfs) could use a specialized something, probably complicated to implement, though
2015-04-22T04:45:55Z hjs: Managed to get some of my code to run in common-lisp-statistics, but was disappointed in the performance, so started to dig into the vectorized operations.
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2015-04-22T04:52:42Z loke: Wow. I had no idea that the CL LAPACK was implemented by compiling the Fortran code to Lisp using f2cl. I'd have expected it to call out into native libraries.
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2015-04-22T04:54:03Z Slothel: hey guys, quick question
2015-04-22T04:54:20Z Slothel: So, in Windows 7, I have two explorer windows up, pointing to the exact same folder.
2015-04-22T04:54:44Z Slothel: One explorer tab shows set A of files, other explorer tab shows set B
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2015-04-22T04:54:50Z Slothel: the two are not identical
2015-04-22T04:54:58Z Slothel: any ideas what in the f* is going on?
2015-04-22T04:55:04Z loke: Slothel: Is there a Lisp question in there?
2015-04-22T04:55:17Z hjs: Here's one timing result: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147334
2015-04-22T04:55:22Z Slothel: loke: Not directly, no.
2015-04-22T04:55:36Z Slothel: Other than it's a folder with my .lisp files in there
2015-04-22T04:55:43Z loke: Slothel: Try pressing F5. Other than that, I recommend you go to a windows channel?
2015-04-22T04:55:49Z Bike: i don't want to be mean, but that is not a computer help channel
2015-04-22T04:56:02Z Bike: hjs: yeah, figures. it's a bit of a complicated consideration, which i hadn't realized.
2015-04-22T04:56:14Z Slothel: yeab no problem
2015-04-22T04:56:33Z Bike: hjs: maybe it would speed up if you passed it (lambda (a b) (declare (optimize bla bla) (type double-float a b)) (* a b)) instead of *, but that's a pain
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2015-04-22T05:08:08Z hjs: Possibly.  I don't mind so much the pain because I'll stick it into the generic vectorized * code and won't have to worry about it in the future.
2015-04-22T05:08:55Z hjs: The problem is the heap becoming exhausted even though, while I'm creating a lot of large arrays, I
2015-04-22T05:09:12Z hjs: 'm also throwing them away, and only have a few active at any given time.
2015-04-22T05:10:00Z hjs: I'm surprised the GC is failing to reclaim the space.
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2015-04-22T05:10:13Z Bike: yeah i don't know the first thing about gc, so
2015-04-22T05:11:03Z hjs: Anyway, I guess I'll report it...
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2015-04-22T06:57:39Z smokeink: loading this code with quicklisp, https://github.com/pvlpenev/lispwebtales/tree/master/source/chapter5/linkdemo results in error: NIL fell through ETYPECASE expression. Wanted one of (SIMPLE-STRING STRING). [Condition of type SB-KERNEL:CASE-FAILURE] this is the culprit code https://github.com/pvlpenev/lispwebtales/blob/master/source/chapter5/linkdemo/defmodule.lisp#L3-L33 any idea what could be the reason i
2015-04-22T06:57:40Z smokeink:  get that error ? and how to fix it?
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2015-04-22T07:21:52Z emaczen: The currency-converter program packaged in the CCL distribution does not work. It writes: "Evaluation aborted on #<PROCESS-RESET #x30200280055D>" and then kills my REPL in emacs. What can I do?
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2015-04-22T07:22:30Z emaczen: I am runnning OS X 10.10.3
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2015-04-22T07:23:43Z Fare: fix it?
2015-04-22T07:24:18Z Fare: I used to have a currency converter in perl
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2015-04-22T07:24:42Z Fare: but I didn't keep it updated the last few years
2015-04-22T07:25:04Z emaczen: I was just trying to follows a tutorial for building OS X applications with CCL
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2015-04-22T07:25:30Z emaczen: Oh wait I didn't specify correclty
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2015-04-22T07:26:28Z emaczen: When I run (CCL::build-application ...) and pass the arguments as shows in the tutorial it crashes the the error I mentioned above.
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2015-04-22T07:28:42Z Fare: I don't know much about OS X, sorry
2015-04-22T07:29:31Z emaczen: no worries. CCL derives from Macintosh Common Lisp and there are Cocoa bindings (the api for UIs).
2015-04-22T07:30:05Z emaczen: The manual I am looking at seems to be the most updated one and targets OS X 10.6 -- 5 years ago...
2015-04-22T07:30:32Z emaczen: Hopefully someone can tell me what needs to be changed if anything.
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2015-04-22T07:30:46Z Fare: probably not much
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2015-04-22T07:32:01Z H4ns: emaczen: you'll probably find help on the clozure cl list (https://lists.clozure.com/mailman/listinfo/openmcl-devel)
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2015-04-22T07:32:51Z H4ns: emaczen: you can also try #ccl, although most people there would also see your inquiry here.
2015-04-22T07:33:23Z emaczen: H4ns: Thanks, I will join tomorrow -- I'm exhausted and heading to bed. Night all
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2015-04-22T08:01:58Z francogrex: hi, newer sbcl assmbly is generating what is called a 'safepoint': http://paste.lisp.org/display/147339 can someone tell me what is this and why it has been added in the new releases?
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2015-04-22T08:07:58Z brucem: francogrex: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21859232/understanding-the-sbcl-entry-exit-assembly-boiler-plate-code
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2015-04-22T08:19:16Z francogrex: brucem: good ref I'll read. thanks
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2015-04-22T08:19:45Z brucem: francogrex: there's some other material around as well ... pkhuong had a blog post in 2008 about one part of it ...
2015-04-22T08:19:56Z brucem: francogrex: Also, if you ask in #sbcl, you'll get even better info. :)
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2015-04-22T08:22:37Z francogrex: ok
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2015-04-22T09:03:59Z kjeldahl: join /#sbcl
2015-04-22T09:04:05Z kjeldahl: duh sry
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2015-04-22T09:19:57Z drmeister: Hello
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2015-04-22T10:26:46Z Shinmera: drmeister: Hullo.
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2015-04-22T10:27:30Z drmeister:  Shinmera are you home yet?
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2015-04-22T10:27:50Z Shinmera: No, I'm at Luton airport right now, waiting for my gate to open.
2015-04-22T10:28:00Z Shinmera: These bastards charge for their wifi!
2015-04-22T10:28:08Z Shinmera shakes fist at clouds
2015-04-22T10:28:11Z drmeister: Same here at Heathrow
2015-04-22T10:28:27Z drmeister: That'll show them
2015-04-22T10:28:29Z Shinmera: How are you holding up? Slept well?
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2015-04-22T10:29:44Z drmeister: Meh. Up 'til 3 woke at 7:30. Took Uber to the airport, whizzing through narrow London streets getting car sick.
2015-04-22T10:30:01Z drmeister: I have a coffee now. Things are looking up.
2015-04-22T10:30:58Z Shinmera: I had a surprisingly problem-free trip through London this time, thanks to a very helpful clerk at Greenwich station.
2015-04-22T10:31:15Z drmeister: You left your chocolates at the bar. Thank you.
2015-04-22T10:31:38Z Shinmera: Well, they were supposed to be for everyone at the conference, so that wasn't on accident :)
2015-04-22T10:32:05Z drmeister: I appreciated it
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2015-04-22T10:32:41Z drmeister: Do you know of any good web references on type inference?
2015-04-22T10:32:53Z Shinmera: So, how are you feeling now that you've talked to people? Still feeling depressed about the possibility that people might not care?
2015-04-22T10:33:08Z drmeister: I can load them on my phone for when my laptop dies
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2015-04-22T10:33:14Z Shinmera: I do not, sorry. It's not an area I've ever looked into.
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2015-04-22T10:33:40Z drmeister: I'll toss that question out to the wider audience then.
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2015-04-22T10:33:57Z drmeister: I need to talk with beach about it.
2015-04-22T10:34:51Z drmeister: Tagging, vops, type inference. Those are my burning interests for the next little while.
2015-04-22T10:35:48Z drmeister: If the difference between where I am and where I want to be (fast clasp) is a few macros - then I'm in a great place.
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2015-04-22T10:39:53Z drmeister: It looks like vops are all these overlapping operations with trade offs in cost, type awareness, speed and size. The compiler mixes and matches them according to the programmers declares.
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2015-04-22T10:41:19Z drmeister: What I have now is essentially the most general, most expensive operations for everything.
2015-04-22T10:42:05Z drmeister: Beach is working on type inference.
2015-04-22T10:43:12Z Shinmera: Right.
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2015-04-22T10:43:57Z drmeister: I can't use sbcls vops directly because llvm uses different instructions and cleavir provides different info. But something like vops will fit nicely between cleavir and llvm
2015-04-22T10:45:53Z drmeister: I was excited to hear that the Google folks had tried and given up on adding llvm as a backend to sbcl. Not in a schadenfreude way. But that what I'm doing is hard and I've made a lot of progress.
2015-04-22T10:47:41Z drmeister: I need to get to my gate. I'll talk to you later.
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2015-04-22T10:50:14Z Shinmera: Have a good flight!
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2015-04-22T11:00:34Z drmeister: Same to you Shinmera - lets talk more later.
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2015-04-22T11:25:44Z pillton: How do you create an account at gitlab.common-lisp.net?
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2015-04-22T11:59:33Z Cymew: adding llvm as a backend to sbcl, that sounds... involved...
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