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2015-04-21T00:34:20Z Slothel: I'm thankful for the hyperspec
2015-04-21T00:34:32Z Slothel: I just learned that the C++ standard actually costs money
2015-04-21T00:34:39Z Slothel: what a crock of crap
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2015-04-21T00:37:44Z Bicyclidine: The CL standard also costs money, technically. The ANSI one. Luckily the hyperspec is solid.
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2015-04-21T00:46:23Z jasom: Slothel: the draft C++ spec from right before the standard is pretty good
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2015-04-21T00:47:08Z jasom: Slothel: I don't recall if they started keeping drafts on github before C++11 or not, but definitely have the drafts for C++ 14 up there now
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2015-04-21T01:02:33Z emaczen`: How can I print unicode strings with common lisp? Specifically I wish to print the playing card symbols such as "\u2660"
2015-04-21T01:02:33Z minion: emaczen`, memo from pjb: I would not advice MoCL for now.  The time you will have to spend to contort your code to its requirements and lacks would be better spent on making ecl or ccl more seamless on mobile platforms. You can get Maxima and Common Lisp REPL on Android.
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2015-04-21T01:07:36Z Bicyclidine: emaczen`: it should just work (TM), e.g. (write (code-char 2660) :escape nil) works for me.
2015-04-21T01:07:52Z Bicyclidine: depends on your implementation, but i think all of them have unicode by now.
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2015-04-21T01:09:23Z emaczen`: Bicyclidine: That doesn't work for me, I am using CCL at the moment. Let me try ECL real quick.
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2015-04-21T01:11:02Z emaczen`: Bicyclidine: ECL does the same that CCL does -- If I type (princ "\u2660") into the *scratch* buffer in emacs, it prints out a filled-in playing card spade symbol.
2015-04-21T01:11:06Z emaczen`: What exactly happens for you?
2015-04-21T01:11:54Z Bicyclidine: well that's just a string, so it prints u2660.
2015-04-21T01:12:15Z Bicyclidine: if i (princ #\u2660) on sbcl then i get a spade, sure. isn't that what you want?
2015-04-21T01:12:47Z emaczen`: Yes, that is what I was looking for.
2015-04-21T01:13:19Z Bicyclidine: so what's the problem you're having?
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2015-04-21T01:13:43Z emaczen`: I forget about the #\ notation for characters every once in awhile
2015-04-21T01:13:56Z emaczen`: What you suggested works in CCL.
2015-04-21T01:14:41Z Bicyclidine: you should also just be able to write literal strings with a spade in them.
2015-04-21T01:14:54Z Bicyclidine: like (princ "J♠
2015-04-21T01:14:56Z Bicyclidine: ") oops
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2015-04-21T01:44:32Z linux_dream: hey pjb in emacs+paredit...  say you have written the code (... stuff)   and want to modify it to (... (stuff-1 stuff-2))    it looks like a nightmare to me
2015-04-21T01:45:15Z linux_dream: because I can't put a left parenthesis on the left side of stuff and close it afterwards
2015-04-21T01:45:39Z linux_dream: I'd get    (... () stuff)
2015-04-21T01:45:56Z linux_dream: I can't seem to get:   (... (stuff))
2015-04-21T01:46:32Z linux_dream: so I find myself constantly switching between normal and paredit mode
2015-04-21T01:46:49Z PuercoPop: linux_dream: try C-)
2015-04-21T01:47:06Z linux_dream: ok thanks
2015-04-21T01:52:25Z PuercoPop: you could use this link as a tl;dr on paredit: http://danmidwood.com/content/2014/11/21/animated-paredit.html
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2015-04-21T02:11:12Z pjb: linux_dream: move in front of stuff and type M-(
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2015-04-21T02:11:50Z pjb: (a | b c)  C-u 2 M-(   (a ( | b c))
2015-04-21T02:11:58Z linux_dream: hmm what's the key for ( ?
2015-04-21T02:12:09Z pjb: Usually S-8
2015-04-21T02:12:21Z linux_dream: so it's C-S-8  ?
2015-04-21T02:12:28Z pjb: M-S-8
2015-04-21T02:12:35Z linux_dream: ah!
2015-04-21T02:13:08Z linux_dream: wow that's freaking amazing
2015-04-21T02:13:12Z pjb: M-( is bound to paredit-wrap-round ; you can add the bindings you want to ease your editing.
2015-04-21T02:13:29Z linux_dream: nah it's ok for me... at least for now
2015-04-21T02:13:30Z pjb: linux_dream: study the other paredit commands (and add your own bindings to make them easy for you).
2015-04-21T02:13:43Z linux_dream: ok thanks
2015-04-21T02:13:43Z pjb: the slurp and barf are useful too.
2015-04-21T02:14:11Z pjb: along with the usual emacs C-M-f C-M-b etc.
2015-04-21T02:14:33Z linux_dream: I'm not familiar with any of these yet
2015-04-21T02:14:46Z Bike: forward-sexp, backward-sexp. i use em even without paredit
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2015-04-21T02:37:45Z Slothel: What math prereqs exist for Lambda Calculus?
2015-04-21T02:37:52Z pjb: none
2015-04-21T02:38:15Z Zhivago: Reading comprehension at a twelve year old level.
2015-04-21T02:38:29Z pjb: Now, if you have studied set theory, that cannot be detriemental, I'd say.
2015-04-21T02:39:25Z jasom: and many of the examples in many textbooks will assume you know enough math to understand what problem they are demonstrating a solution to in the lambda calculus
2015-04-21T02:39:27Z Slothel: pjb: Would you perhaps have a good introductory text to recommend?
2015-04-21T02:39:56Z pjb: Just google for it, there are a ton of lambda calculus resources.
2015-04-21T02:40:20Z Zhivago: Lambda calculus is fundamentally simple. Just work through some of it by hand.
2015-04-21T02:40:30Z Zhivago: What do you want to use lambda calculus for, anyhow?
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2015-04-21T02:41:24Z Slothel: Zhivago: Nothing at all, just interested
2015-04-21T02:41:39Z Zhivago: Have you looked at unlambda?
2015-04-21T02:41:44Z pjb: Well, indeed lambda calculus is simple, however it is also very close to lisp, from the "abstractional" point of view (eg. compared to Turing Machines, from which the term Turing Tar Pit is derived, if that says something to you).
2015-04-21T02:42:06Z Zhivago: Well ... from a sufficiently abstractional point of view, everything is pretty close.
2015-04-21T02:42:51Z Slothel: pjb: It does
2015-04-21T02:42:51Z pjb: I mean that lambda calculus itself allows you to design abstractions as easily as in lisp, which it is much harder to do with a Turing Machine.
2015-04-21T02:43:06Z Zhivago: unlambda is probably the closest language to lambda calculus which you can do things with.
2015-04-21T02:43:13Z Slothel: pjb: I understand what you mean. I may be wrong here but I believe turing-completeness is defined for an imperative language yes?
2015-04-21T02:43:49Z brucem: jasom: How goes Eclipse CL on emscripten?
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2015-04-21T02:43:51Z Zhivago: Turing completeness is not defined for interactive machines, which includes most procedural languages.
2015-04-21T02:44:13Z Zhivago: Imperative is just a matter of how you express things.
2015-04-21T02:44:15Z pjb: Slothel: It's rather indepenedent of the language.  The equivalency is derived from the double implementation of one machine into another and vice versa (machine = language).
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2015-04-21T02:45:21Z Slothel: pjb: Hmm. I may not be following you here.
2015-04-21T02:45:28Z pjb: Notice that while McCarthy implemented a Turing Machine in LISP, he didn't implement LISP in Turing Machine, assuming that it would be possible.  It is indeed generally believed,  but I don't know if anybody every did so.
2015-04-21T02:45:29Z Slothel: pjb: Time to read up a little.
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2015-04-21T02:47:09Z pjb: Basically we are satisfied by Turing proof that Turing Machines can implement any computable function.
2015-04-21T02:47:27Z Zhivago: (Which is why interactive machines are a problem)
2015-04-21T02:47:27Z Slothel: pjb: Right, I understand that much.
2015-04-21T02:48:02Z pjb: Zhivago: yes, you have to record future interaction on the tape, and simulate the I/O from there. :-)
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2015-04-21T02:48:39Z pjb: Similarly in lambda calculus: you can implement I/O, but only if you implement also the simulation of the exterior of the computer needed to perform those I/O.
2015-04-21T02:49:14Z pjb: Hence the conclusion that the Universe is just an lambda calculus program run by God.
2015-04-21T02:49:56Z Slothel: I don't know exactly how literally I should take this statement "haven't implemented lisp in a turing machine"
2015-04-21T02:50:08Z Slothel: I feel like Im missing something and Im going to out myself as a huge dumbass but
2015-04-21T02:50:16Z Slothel: aren't computers we have now turing machiens?
2015-04-21T02:50:17Z Slothel: *machines
2015-04-21T02:50:28Z loke: Slothel: No
2015-04-21T02:50:37Z pjb: Slothel: cf. AIM-8.
2015-04-21T02:50:38Z loke: Slothel: Very few turing machines have been built
2015-04-21T02:51:03Z jasom: brucem: haven't worked on it much; next step is to write some functions to access struct members so I can figure out wtf is going on
2015-04-21T02:51:05Z Zhivago: The computers we use today are generally interactive, but they can be used to implement turing machines.
2015-04-21T02:51:24Z Zhivago: Being able to implement a turing machine just means that you should be able to compute any computable algorithm.
2015-04-21T02:51:25Z Slothel: Okay, now it's much clearer
2015-04-21T02:51:44Z Slothel: I ran into a problem thinking that our computers now are turing machine and we implement lisp in them
2015-04-21T02:51:51Z Slothel: but now I'm with ya
2015-04-21T02:51:55Z Slothel: continue please! :)
2015-04-21T02:51:59Z Zhivago: Most programs aren't algorithms, and so aren't realizable with turing machines.
2015-04-21T02:52:05Z jasom: computers are finite state machines
2015-04-21T02:52:13Z pjb: See section 2.8 in http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html
2015-04-21T02:52:25Z jasom: well if you ignore I/O they are anyway
2015-04-21T02:52:58Z pjb: Well, since our computers have finite memory, they usually are not Turing Machine.  Just DFA.
2015-04-21T02:53:50Z loke: Someone built a turing machine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3keLeMwfHY
2015-04-21T02:53:52Z pjb: But if you consider only the computable functions that can be computed on finite memory, then there's some intersection between our computers and Turing Machines, which justifies the mathematical model to help understand our computers.
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2015-04-21T02:54:05Z pjb: loke: again, the paper tape is not infinite.
2015-04-21T02:54:37Z Slothel: So how do we know what algorithms are computable and which arent
2015-04-21T02:54:41Z Slothel: and what exactly is computable anyway
2015-04-21T02:54:43Z jasom: Slothel: proofs
2015-04-21T02:54:55Z Zhivago: Slothel: Generally the question is -- do they converge or diverge?
2015-04-21T02:54:56Z Slothel: what is meant by computable?
2015-04-21T02:54:56Z pjb: And even if you consider the life expectancy of the universe, as a limit to the memory usable, you will still need several galaxies worth of tape.
2015-04-21T02:55:06Z pjb: (I'd estimate).
2015-04-21T02:55:15Z Zhivago: Slothel: If they converge, then they are computable, given sufficient, but finite, resources.
2015-04-21T02:55:21Z jasom: Slothel: computable means "computable on a turing machine" since nobody has shown that a machine exists that can compute more than a turing machine
2015-04-21T02:55:45Z jasom: Zhivago: there are plenty of problems that are proovably not computable on a TM given unbounded time and unbounded storage
2015-04-21T02:55:46Z Zhivago: Slothel: If they diverge, then they require infinite resources.
2015-04-21T02:55:47Z pjb: To be an algorithm a process description must terminate.
2015-04-21T02:55:49Z Slothel: Man I really want to learn this stuff.
2015-04-21T02:55:58Z Slothel: My university was woefully lackign in theory
2015-04-21T02:56:13Z Zhivago: jasom: I don't believe that I claimed otherwise.
2015-04-21T02:56:19Z pjb: Hence the importane of termination proof, and the conundrum posed by the imposibility to determine termination by an algorithm, in general.
2015-04-21T02:56:19Z jasom: Slothel: read about the halting problem; it's a really understantable proof of something you can't compute on a turing machine
2015-04-21T02:57:08Z pjb: Zhivago: it is believed that (real) Quantum Computers could deal with infinite resources.
2015-04-21T02:57:56Z jasom: pjb: not that I'm aware of; quantum theories that don't bound information density are problematic
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2015-04-21T02:58:17Z Zhivago: pjb: Hmm, only sideways, as far as I understand it -- convergance should still be required.
2015-04-21T02:58:22Z pjb: See also the Busy Beavers, they're funny: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busy_beaver
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2015-04-21T02:58:58Z pjb: For QC, I'd agree in general, given that the universe is not infinite anyways.
2015-04-21T03:00:23Z Slothel: I sometimes wish I could just bury myself in studies and didn't have to work
2015-04-21T03:00:32Z Slothel: All of this seems so fascinating but I don't understand a lot of it
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2015-04-21T03:03:09Z brucem: jasom: just memorize address offsets and read the generated JS.
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2015-04-21T03:04:11Z jasom: I suppose; the eclispe CL code is surprisingly resiliant against analysis by cscope and ctags
2015-04-21T03:04:25Z jasom: making structure definitions found best by grep
2015-04-21T03:04:41Z brucem: jasom:  HEAP32[i1 + 648 >> 2] = HEAP32[i23 + 0 >> 2];     HEAP32[i1 + 652 >> 2] = HEAP32[i23 + 4 >> 2]; ... that's clearly reading 2 members form a struct into a value allocated on the stack. :)
2015-04-21T03:04:51Z jasom: right
2015-04-21T03:05:05Z jasom: will emscripten in general generate typical 32-bit structure layouts?
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2015-04-21T03:05:16Z brucem: jasom: yes, since that all comes from clang.
2015-04-21T03:05:34Z jasom: I can figure out the offsets just from the struct definition then
2015-04-21T03:05:44Z jasom: I had to do that back when debuggers didn't really exist
2015-04-21T03:06:07Z jasom: or only existed if you had the one ICE version of the chip that someone else was always using
2015-04-21T03:06:25Z brucem: jasom: Also, you can hack on the generated JS and add debugging, etc very easily ...
2015-04-21T03:06:34Z jasom: right
2015-04-21T03:06:41Z Slothel: it seems like HTML5 does a lot of what JS used to have to do
2015-04-21T03:06:42Z jasom: of course my JS knowledge is ... limited\
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2015-04-21T03:07:03Z brucem: jasom: Don't worry about that. Just do it.
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2015-04-21T03:08:46Z jasom: right, but busy with stuff people actually pay me for.
2015-04-21T03:09:34Z jasom: I will get it working
2015-04-21T03:09:54Z jasom: I'm really, really close; there are like 3 modules left to initialize before the REPL is up
2015-04-21T03:10:12Z jasom: then I get to enable the GC and have everything break again :)
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2015-04-21T03:19:08Z brucem: jasom: might not be that bad ... Various people have built and run Boehm for example.
2015-04-21T03:21:56Z jasom: brucem: it has to run only at a certain point though, right?  I recall seeing something about that in the readme
2015-04-21T03:22:10Z jasom: and eclipse does use boehm
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2015-04-21T03:23:57Z brucem: jasom: odds are that it'll be fine. :)
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2015-04-21T04:32:47Z marsjaninzmarsa: I've missexported symbol from one package to another, how to undo that without restarting sbcl?
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2015-04-21T04:33:44Z marsjaninzmarsa: (describe 'magda:*version*)
2015-04-21T04:33:44Z marsjaninzmarsa: ALICE:*VERSION*
2015-04-21T04:34:01Z Bike: unexport?
2015-04-21T04:34:17Z marsjaninzmarsa: tried.
2015-04-21T04:35:01Z marsjaninzmarsa: * (unexport 'alice:*version*)
2015-04-21T04:35:01Z marsjaninzmarsa: T
2015-04-21T04:35:01Z marsjaninzmarsa: * (describe 'magda:*version*)
2015-04-21T04:35:01Z marsjaninzmarsa: ALICE:*VERSION*
2015-04-21T04:36:04Z Bike: (unintern 'magda:*version* "MAGDA"), maybe?
2015-04-21T04:36:06Z Zhivago: You could try uninterning it?
2015-04-21T04:36:29Z marsjaninzmarsa: yep, too.
2015-04-21T04:37:42Z marsjaninzmarsa: * (unintern 'alice:*version*)
2015-04-21T04:37:42Z marsjaninzmarsa: NIL
2015-04-21T04:37:49Z marsjaninzmarsa: * (describe 'magda:*version*)
2015-04-21T04:37:49Z marsjaninzmarsa: ALICE:*VERSION*
2015-04-21T04:38:11Z marsjaninzmarsa: Bike: wait a sec, thats new. :D
2015-04-21T04:38:15Z pjb: if you also have used the package alice in magda.
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2015-04-21T04:39:24Z Bike: i don't know packages taht well, so i'm just guessin'
2015-04-21T04:42:09Z marsjaninzmarsa: duh. only unexported magda:*version*, but still linked to alice:*version*...
2015-04-21T04:44:57Z marsjaninzmarsa: i've used to :use #:alice in magda defpackage, that was mistake, i wanna undo it without killing script. :x
2015-04-21T04:46:45Z pjb: marsjaninzmarsa: read clhs!
2015-04-21T04:47:06Z pjb: You will probably find something useful.
2015-04-21T04:47:07Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/11_.htm
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2015-04-21T04:47:18Z marsjaninzmarsa: thx
2015-04-21T04:50:26Z Bike: okay, using is different from exporting.
2015-04-21T04:50:34Z pjb: Indeed.
2015-04-21T04:50:41Z Bike: check the dictionary there, you will see unuse-package.
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2015-04-21T04:51:33Z marsjaninzmarsa: unuse doesn't help either. :x
2015-04-21T04:51:52Z pjb: have you specified the two packages?
2015-04-21T04:52:08Z marsjaninzmarsa: tried before asked. :x
2015-04-21T04:52:52Z marsjaninzmarsa: package magda depends on package alice
2015-04-21T04:53:10Z pjb: This is somewhat meaningless.
2015-04-21T04:53:35Z pjb: or at least, unspecific.
2015-04-21T04:54:35Z marsjaninzmarsa: i'm sorta lisp-newbie, i don't know vocabulary. :x
2015-04-21T04:54:52Z pjb: a package may _use_ another package, or it may _import_ SYMBOLS (not packages), and it may _export_ SYMBOLS.
2015-04-21T04:55:03Z pjb: marsjaninzmarsa: that's why I said read clhs.
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2015-04-21T04:55:49Z pjb: a package may also shadow symbols that are exported from packages it uses.
2015-04-21T04:55:52Z marsjaninzmarsa: umh. get it, i think.
2015-04-21T04:56:30Z marsjaninzmarsa: i wanna have two separate symbols in two packages, exported both, i think. :x
2015-04-21T04:56:42Z pjb: Now, since packages are only used when reading to intern symbols (and when explicitely used), you may modify the package as you wish at run-time (or in the REPL).
2015-04-21T04:57:09Z pjb: ok, so: (defpackage "P1" (:use) (:export "S1")) (defpackage "P2" (:use) (:export "S2"))
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2015-04-21T05:00:03Z marsjaninzmarsa: yep. but in my code by mistake was (defpackage #:P2 (:use #:P1))
2015-04-21T05:00:53Z marsjaninzmarsa: if i delete package P2, then add it again, everything should be ok now?
2015-04-21T05:01:17Z pjb: You can just redefine it. While it's not conforming, most implementations will do the right thing.
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2015-04-21T05:02:13Z marsjaninzmarsa: cant, "debugger invoked on a NAME-CONFLICT in thread"
2015-04-21T05:02:19Z marsjaninzmarsa: i'm using sbcl.
2015-04-21T05:02:28Z pjb: You can: there are restarts that allow you to resolve the conflicts!
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2015-04-21T05:04:03Z marsjaninzmarsa:   0: [KEEP-OLD        ] Keep *VERSION* accessible in COMMON-LISP-USER (shadowing ALICE:*VERSION*).
2015-04-21T05:04:03Z marsjaninzmarsa:   1: [TAKE-NEW        ] Make ALICE:*VERSION* accessible in COMMON-LISP-USER (uninterning *VERSION*).
2015-04-21T05:05:07Z marsjaninzmarsa: hmm, wait, i wanna try something
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2015-04-21T05:17:41Z marsjaninzmarsa: ok, thanks guys for help! maybe that was way around, but works!
2015-04-21T05:18:02Z marsjaninzmarsa: (deleting package and force reloading it via asfd)
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2015-04-21T06:18:03Z Pixel_Outlaw: A bit off topic I admit but does anyone know if they are filming the 8th European Lisp Symposium?
2015-04-21T06:18:25Z Pixel_Outlaw: It is today and tomorrow.
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2015-04-21T06:22:40Z PuercoPop: they are, but don't expect teh video anytime soon. You can follow the hashtag #ELS2015 in twitter if you want the latest news on it
2015-04-21T06:22:56Z Pixel_Outlaw: Excellent thank you PuercoPop
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2015-04-21T06:37:20Z yh: '(+ 1 1)
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2015-04-21T06:52:45Z Slothel: So I've noticed on various technical blogs people writing articles about minutiae of various programming languages, like subtle aspects of things buried deep in the implementation. How do you get to the point where you know that stuff?
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2015-04-21T06:54:08Z brucem: Slothel: I do it by doing it.
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2015-04-21T06:59:35Z Slothel: brucem: Well, thanks for your honesty at least?
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2015-04-21T06:59:59Z brucem: Slothel: I don't know of a way to learn to do it ... I just started doing it.
2015-04-21T07:00:11Z brucem: Slothel: took a couple of years to get pretty good at it.
2015-04-21T07:01:53Z jasom: Slothel: don't sweat it.  If you actually are curious about your tools, you'll accumulate this stuff.  It won't happen overnight.  You'll discover some minute detail here, some nearly useless bit of trivia there, and then eventually you'll be one of  those people.
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2015-04-21T07:03:11Z jasom: Slothel: onething you *can* do is, whenver something odd happens, find out why.
2015-04-21T07:03:22Z jasom: and  my  spacebar  is  dying  on my keyboard :(
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2015-04-21T07:05:03Z Slothel: Right, I suspected that experience was required, just wondered if there were any shortcuts or if I was going about studying in the wrong way
2015-04-21T07:05:48Z jasom: Don't ignore the strange things.  Themore often you ignore them, the longer it takes.
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2015-04-21T07:12:27Z Cymew: Slothel: Use M-. all the time, helps you get into the deep end of things.
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2015-04-21T07:26:46Z loke: Slothel: You have to have curiosity
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2015-04-21T07:31:09Z loke: I was given a free .xyz domain name from Gandi. So I have a code for that. I have no use for an .xyz but if anyone wants it, I'll give you the key
2015-04-21T07:31:44Z pjb: Slothel: the shortcut would be to read the sources!
2015-04-21T07:32:23Z loke: pjb: If the sources are SBCL, it certainly helps to have someone guide you too. I'd have been completely lost if it hadn't been for the developer'
2015-04-21T07:32:33Z loke: s effort to keep me informed :-)
2015-04-21T07:32:57Z pjb: Is xyz a real TLD?
2015-04-21T07:33:02Z loke: For example, their definition of CAR was quite confusing to me until I learned about DEFTRANSFORM
2015-04-21T07:33:09Z loke: pjb: it is
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2015-04-21T07:33:17Z pjb: What is it for?
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2015-04-21T07:33:42Z loke: I have no idea. Guess why I'm giving it away... abc.xyz was already taken, so I have no idea what to do with it
2015-04-21T07:34:03Z pjb: uvw.xyz is better.
2015-04-21T07:34:08Z loke: Also taken
2015-04-21T07:34:24Z loke: I tried all the obvious ones :-)
2015-04-21T07:34:52Z pjb: So you can have ab.cde.fgh.ijk.lmn.opq.rst.uvw.xyz
2015-04-21T07:35:34Z pjb: and even better: mailto:0.123.456.789@ab.cde.fgh.ijk.lmn.opq.rst.uvw.xyz
2015-04-21T07:35:37Z loke: abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvw.xyz was already taken, IIRC
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2015-04-21T07:38:28Z pkok: hi all, fairly new to Common Lisp and lisps in general. When searching for efficient matrix manipulation libraries (for computer vision and robotics) I ran into a wall. I really hope it's because of my lack of Google-fu. Any tips to look at? Maybe another lisp than CL?
2015-04-21T07:38:48Z loke: pkok: You mean matrix maths?
2015-04-21T07:38:51Z pjb: pkok: http://cliki.net/Performance
2015-04-21T07:39:10Z loke: pkok: Like LAPACK stuff?
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2015-04-21T07:39:50Z pkok: yes, in C++ I mainly use Eigen, which is a bit easier to use for the programmer
2015-04-21T07:40:16Z pkok: pjb: program performance, sorry for the ambiguity
2015-04-21T07:40:50Z loke: pkok: I don't do much of that, but there are a few maths-related packages. There is femlisp for exmaple
2015-04-21T07:41:16Z loke: Oh wait. That's for PDE
2015-04-21T07:41:24Z pjb: pkok: even considering program performance, since lisp allows you to perform easily symbolic computation, of often can avoid a lot of numerical computation by implementing some reasoning.
2015-04-21T07:41:27Z loke: http://www.femlisp.org/
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2015-04-21T07:41:46Z pjb: In particular, in robotics, I'd expect some good opportunities.
2015-04-21T07:41:55Z pkok: let me take a look at that
2015-04-21T07:42:07Z Zhivago: I'd probably call out to an external library, unless you want to roll everything yourself.
2015-04-21T07:42:37Z Zhivago: There's not much point in reinventing those wheels, unless that's what's important to you.
2015-04-21T07:43:00Z Zhivago: I'd probably try to arrange it so that lisp received the higher level visual features you're interested in.
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2015-04-21T07:43:17Z pkok: pjb: I am currently busy writing some localization algorithms, which use Kalman filters. I don't immediately see how to avoid those computations directly, but will keep it in mind
2015-04-21T07:43:23Z loke: I don't know if this is useful: https://github.com/ghollisjr/cl-ana/wiki
2015-04-21T07:44:08Z pkok: Zhivago: alright! I'll look into
2015-04-21T07:44:18Z pjb: Also, you can use lisp to generate the code that will do the numerical computation, for example, targetting a FGPA or a GPU processor.
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2015-04-21T07:44:44Z pkok: *the ffi
2015-04-21T07:44:55Z pkok: pjb: that sounds nice!
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2015-04-21T08:46:34Z drmeister: Does anyone know of a slime variable that will print forms that are sent to slime are printed in *inferior-lisp* as they are evaluated?
2015-04-21T08:47:04Z drmeister: Yeesh, let me try again.
2015-04-21T08:47:35Z drmeister: Is there a slime variable that will print forms in *inferior-lisp* just before they are evaluated?
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2015-04-21T08:48:17Z drmeister: I'm at ELS and I'd like to have my demo print the form followed by the output.
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2015-04-21T12:19:33Z dto: lisp-relevant: video of yesterday's ClojureWest talk on lisp history in game development https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9413412
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2015-04-21T12:30:01Z nyef: ... With the history of Lisp games starting in 1996?!?
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2015-04-21T12:30:11Z nyef: What happened to ZORK?
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2015-04-21T12:33:26Z dto: nyef: zork really?
2015-04-21T12:33:47Z dto: nyef and guess who else is mentioned at various points :)
2015-04-21T12:35:51Z nyef: The original Zork was out of MIT, using a lisp dialect known as "MDL".
2015-04-21T12:36:00Z dto: wow i didn't know that.
2015-04-21T12:36:19Z dto: i played an RT-11 port of the UNIX port of zork when i was a kid.
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2015-04-21T12:37:10Z nyef: The games were actually defined in terms of a virtual machine, making porting fairly straightforward.
2015-04-21T12:37:48Z nyef: You can find samples out there of how the original game code was structured, and it's very obviously lisp.
2015-04-21T12:38:51Z dto: nice!
2015-04-21T12:38:54Z nyef: Heh. Just got to the bit about 2x0ng.
2015-04-21T12:40:33Z dto: nyef: i have a back-of-the-mind project to make an org/elisp --> Inform 6   IDE
2015-04-21T12:41:01Z Zhivago: Well, the MDL implementation wasn't.
2015-04-21T12:41:28Z dto: but it interpreted/compiled a Lispy language to Z-machine bytecodes?
2015-04-21T12:41:38Z Zhivago: No.
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2015-04-21T12:42:02Z Zhivago: That came later when faced with the challenge of re-implementing it on a crappy pc.
2015-04-21T12:42:02Z dto: my dad said that when he tested ancient builds of it , the devguys would put info about changes in this version, as a letter in the mailbox at the opening
2015-04-21T12:42:11Z dto: interesting.
2015-04-21T12:42:38Z Zhivago: You can find the MDL source on the net if you look.
2015-04-21T12:43:01Z dto: thanks. i should take a look around. might tweet at the speaker :)
2015-04-21T12:43:36Z nyef: I'd imagine that writing your own lisp for game logic is more feasible as an individual or a small team, rather than a large company. Less inertia.
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2015-04-21T12:46:05Z dto: probably yes nyef
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2015-04-21T12:48:03Z nyef: Heh. Performance benefits of using Java. (-:
2015-04-21T12:48:53Z dto: :)
2015-04-21T12:48:54Z dto: haha
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2015-04-21T13:26:04Z Walex: nyef: MDL? Someone knows about MDL! Amazing!
2015-04-21T13:26:23Z dlowe: doesn't everyone?
2015-04-21T13:26:28Z Walex: nyef: it was not *quite* a Lisp dialect. More like a Lisp 2 dialect!
2015-04-21T13:26:57Z Walex: dlowe: perhaps 3 people in world are left who know about MDL: you, "nyef" and me.
2015-04-21T13:26:59Z dlowe: Reading the zork source code is awesome. So neat to see how they structured the game.
2015-04-21T13:27:52Z nyef: Somewhere around I have a Z-Machine interpreter (for Z3) written in Lisp. Uses McCLIM for the UI.
2015-04-21T13:29:16Z dto: wow.
2015-04-21T13:29:19Z Walex: MDL is listed in my page of "Great but obscure research", along with the MDL module repository called Calico: http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/csGreatObs.html
2015-04-21T13:29:39Z billstclair: I never programmed in MDL, but I remember PDL & his friend talking about how it learned to generate good machine code for your MDL code.
2015-04-21T13:30:25Z billstclair: I was writing PDP-11 Fortran to collect morse code data for their intelligent MDL code that parsed it
2015-04-21T13:30:41Z Zhivago: Calico doesn't appear to link anywhere there.
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2015-04-21T13:33:19Z Walex: ahhh now MIT LCS TR-294 comes up
2015-04-21T13:33:36Z billstclair: I think Tim Anderson was the other guy I remember from the Dynamic Modeling lab
2015-04-21T13:34:12Z billstclair: PDL is P. David Lebling
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2015-04-21T13:37:29Z Walex: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/mit/lcs/tr/MIT-LCS-TR-294_MDL_Pgmg_Environment_May80.pdf lists "Edward H. Black 'Using MDL's Calico User Interface' TR SYS.11.21 MIT LCS PTG, 1976"
2015-04-21T13:39:20Z Zhivago: If only there were code.
2015-04-21T13:39:32Z Zhivago: Are there any extant MDL systems?
2015-04-21T13:39:55Z billstclair: That system ran in ITS on PDP-10s with Imlac graphic terminals for UI
2015-04-21T13:40:11Z Walex: Zhivago: nahhh. MDL is one of those clean, well designed, ... systems that vanished almost without trace.
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2015-04-21T13:40:29Z Walex: it is a bit like asking whether there are any Interlisp systems today...
2015-04-21T13:40:48Z Zhivago: Well, that makes it easier to claim how clean it was.
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2015-04-21T13:41:14Z Zhivago: But from memory the dungeon code wasn't particularly beautiful.
2015-04-21T13:41:31Z Walex: Zhivago: that's another story...
2015-04-21T13:42:22Z Walex: Zhivago: TRs 292, 293 and 294 document MDL fairly well (http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/mit/lcs/tr/ for a mirror)
2015-04-21T13:44:18Z lieven: there's an interlisp emulator still around called medley. I ran it on solaris a few years ago.
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2015-04-21T13:44:49Z Walex: that's one of the things that really depresses me about compsci research: how many really good ideas and projects have essentially disappeared.
2015-04-21T13:45:29Z Walex: lieven: interesting.... http://top2bottom.net/medley.html
2015-04-21T13:46:31Z lieven: http://www2.parc.com/isl/groups/nltt/medley/ but the link to the ftp site has rotted
2015-04-21T13:46:45Z Walex: also from the Wikipedia page https://github.com/blakemcbride/LISPF4
2015-04-21T13:47:33Z lieven: yeah fucking X won and NeWS disappeared without a trace
2015-04-21T13:47:51Z Walex: I used to use the Uppsala Interlisp/370 system. I still have a printed manual.
2015-04-21T13:48:09Z Walex: lieven: another guy who knows about old pretty good stuff.
2015-04-21T13:48:17Z Zhivago: Well, NeWS did kind of suck.
2015-04-21T13:48:29Z Walex: lieven: actually X was pretty good. NeWS was good too.
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2015-04-21T13:48:53Z Walex: Zhivago: NeWS sucked on systems of the time, that had the same CPU power a wristwatch has today.
2015-04-21T13:49:23Z nyef: ... Surely the modern wristwatch has more CPU power?
2015-04-21T13:49:35Z Walex: nyef: and more memory ;-)
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2015-04-21T13:49:41Z lieven: heh I'm still not over the disappearance of VM/CMS. Kids these days have no idea about elegance :)
2015-04-21T13:49:45Z nyef: Right, forgot about memory. d-:
2015-04-21T13:50:15Z Walex: MACLisp and MDL and lots of other stuff run on PDP-10s with 1MiB of memory, when rthey were large systems.
2015-04-21T13:51:11Z p_l: lieven: VM/CMS didn't disappear, actually...
2015-04-21T13:51:16Z p_l: z/VM includes CMS afaik
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2015-04-21T13:54:05Z lieven: I don't think it gets much use these days as a user facing OS. XEDIT was an interesting editor.
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2015-04-21T13:54:46Z p_l: lieven: wel, no, though anyone administering z/VM will still deal with it afaik
2015-04-21T13:54:58Z p_l: haven't yet grabbed z/VM so I can't verify
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2015-04-21T13:55:28Z lieven: running on Hercules or do you have a mainframe stowed away in your cellar? :)
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2015-04-21T13:57:36Z p_l: hercules 4
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2015-04-21T13:59:54Z lieven: hmmm does IBM allow running recent versions nowaday?
2015-04-21T14:00:51Z p_l: lieven: officially? Only if you purchase ADCD
2015-04-21T14:01:01Z p_l: or similar
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2015-04-21T14:09:29Z Walex: what about POP-2 and POP-11? They used to be popular in AI departments in the UK...
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2015-04-21T14:11:18Z p_l: quite dead and how to get working, iirc
2015-04-21T14:11:35Z p_l: and the lisps involved were even less available than the other languages
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2015-04-21T14:12:01Z dto: TIL what shit android is https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!category-topic/webmasters/mobile/cCJ5XieaqYU
2015-04-21T14:12:30Z Walex: p_l: POP-2 in particular was another huge loss.
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2015-04-21T14:12:51Z Walex: not quite lisp, again more like LISP-2
2015-04-21T14:13:18Z p_l: dto: no, you learned that Mobile Web is shit. The reasons behind such modifications? People writing "mobile special" websites that have fixed control over zoom etc....
2015-04-21T14:13:35Z p_l: dto: the last bit about mobile viewport...
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2015-04-21T14:13:44Z Walex: a little known detail about POP-2 is that *way* before LISP Machines, someone wrote a "mainframe" OS in POP-2.
2015-04-21T14:13:52Z Walex: p_l: it is worse than that! :-)
2015-04-21T14:14:20Z p_l: Web is shit on desktop, on mobile it is on forefront of digging deeper shit
2015-04-21T14:14:43Z p_l: (my personal opinions)
2015-04-21T14:14:47Z Walex: p_l: http://www.sabi.co.uk/blog/14-one.html#140312 for "Apple re-defines the unit of measure 'point'"
2015-04-21T14:15:27Z Walex: p_l: I especially like that "The measurable size of a point varies from device to device and is largely irrelevant."
2015-04-21T14:15:52Z p_l: Walex: it's because Apple removed DPI-independence code from NeXT, and then designed retina in a way so that they could mostly make 4pixels for 1 pixel on old screen...
2015-04-21T14:16:01Z oleo: hello :)
2015-04-21T14:16:49Z Walex: p_l: Apple are way weird
2015-04-21T14:16:51Z dto: p_l i still dont understand why the lack of this tag causes stupid behavior
2015-04-21T14:17:15Z dto: really the whole web is shit, i agree
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2015-04-21T14:19:13Z dto: http://www.w3.org/TR/mwabp/#bp-viewport   this doesn't seem to tell me what setting is to be used if i don't care, nor why the example "typical" setting would be good. it is instead acting as if i told it not to scale the page
2015-04-21T14:19:19Z dto: i.e. the attached screenshot
2015-04-21T14:19:40Z p_l: dto: I mostly gave up fighting with the web, it's counter-productive :)
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2015-04-21T14:20:17Z dto: hehe
2015-04-21T14:20:47Z p_l meanwhile watches near-linear speedup using MPI in SBCL-based program :D
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2015-04-21T14:30:34Z p_l: dto: btw, I ran it in Chrome DevTools emulation environment, and it reflows quite well as long as you don't drop width too low
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2015-04-21T14:31:40Z dto: p_l hey nice.
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2015-04-21T14:32:41Z p_l: so the validator might have a funk
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2015-04-21T14:36:43Z dto: p_l probably it will still get penalized
2015-04-21T14:37:01Z dto: it took about 60 seconds to give me that result so i am guessing it started a virtual android instance
2015-04-21T14:37:17Z p_l: ... if it took 60 minutes I'd believe it
2015-04-21T14:37:23Z dto: ha
2015-04-21T14:37:57Z p_l: there is actually a good reason for why it takes that time (android emulator emulates *everything*), but still :D
2015-04-21T14:40:21Z dto: cia/mossad ping time , too
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2015-04-21T14:41:58Z p_l: not in the emulator :D
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2015-04-21T14:45:49Z dto: p_l thats what they want you to think! :)
2015-04-21T14:46:47Z dto: hell they'll probably penalize me just for telling their google group that i think it's ridiculous
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2015-04-21T15:17:01Z Cymew: Interesting. Here I go away for a few hours and people start talking about MDL
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2015-04-21T15:20:04Z dlowe: coincidence?
2015-04-21T15:20:23Z p_l: whoooo, nitro_idiot on stage ;D
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2015-04-21T15:50:11Z PuercoPop: p_l: open a periscope stream?
2015-04-21T15:50:32Z p_l: don't have it, now it's drmeister on Clasp :D
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2015-04-21T15:59:27Z p_l: the clasp talk is hilarious
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2015-04-21T16:15:44Z XachFu: drmeister is on fire. well done!
2015-04-21T16:16:05Z p_l: drmeister is putting everything on fire :D
2015-04-21T16:16:11Z jasom hopes it was recorded
2015-04-21T16:16:31Z p_l: the camera is running, let's hope the record button was pushed
2015-04-21T16:17:09Z antoszka: I can see the red dot flashing on the camera
2015-04-21T16:17:34Z antoszka: hope that does not stick to the convention where "flashing == ready/pause" "continuous == record"
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2015-04-21T16:28:22Z p_l: wow, OpenGL livecoding on scene
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2015-04-21T16:59:16Z drmeister: XachFu, p_l: thanks guys.
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2015-04-21T16:59:36Z p_l: drmeister: you were awesome :)
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2015-04-21T17:00:24Z antoszka: +1
2015-04-21T17:00:30Z antoszka: sorry, 1+
2015-04-21T17:00:33Z antoszka: :)
2015-04-21T17:01:08Z p_l: poor snmsts
2015-04-21T17:01:28Z p_l: ;D
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2015-04-21T17:36:32Z kami: Good evening #lisp
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2015-04-21T17:49:29Z billstclair: Good afternoon kami
2015-04-21T17:49:43Z billstclair is not in London
2015-04-21T17:50:41Z billstclair: But rme, gz, Xach, and alms are
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2015-04-21T18:07:40Z Xach: yes yes
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2015-04-21T18:14:49Z Fade:  /jealous
2015-04-21T18:14:52Z Fade: <-- stuck at work
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2015-04-21T18:17:15Z pjb: How comes?  Aren't work contract freely agreed upon?
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2015-04-21T18:17:47Z Fade: indeed
2015-04-21T18:18:10Z Fade: I wasn't, however, able to convert any of my vacation time for the given period.
2015-04-21T18:18:18Z Fade: so I missed it. :)
2015-04-21T18:18:46Z pjb: I'm talking about "paid" holidays here, but about a clause allowing to not come to work for a few days when you wish.
2015-04-21T18:19:17Z Fade: hah
2015-04-21T18:19:17Z pjb: After all, the company can fire you at any time THEY want, so you should be able to work when YOU want.
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2015-04-21T18:19:47Z Fade: that's not how it works in my experience, but I admire  your logic. :)
2015-04-21T18:20:21Z pjb: The point is that it's a vastly unbalanced contract: you're not an employee, you're a slave.
2015-04-21T18:20:30Z Fade: I enjoyed the lisp conference in Montreal last summer; I was hoping to get out to ELS, but I just couldn't make the dates work.
2015-04-21T18:20:42Z jasom: well, they can fire you any time THEY want, and you can quit any time YOU want.
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2015-04-21T18:20:53Z pjb: And even, I'm sure Roman slave owners would have allowed a good slave a trip to some slave convention.
2015-04-21T18:20:54Z jasom: it's unbalanced because they have a lot more money than you
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2015-04-21T18:21:31Z pjb: I won't go on here, because it's OOT, but you can follow the lead.
2015-04-21T18:21:37Z Fade: anyhow I'm also hoping the camera captures the talks.
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2015-04-21T18:25:44Z k-stz: how's the situation with providing the els talks online?
2015-04-21T18:26:49Z Xach: k-stz: not soon
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2015-04-21T19:22:31Z akkad: any of the videos available? if so can they be topiced?
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2015-04-21T19:48:49Z Shinmera: akkad: It'll be a good while before they're available.
2015-04-21T19:49:09Z Shinmera is completely exhausted, but also glad that he went to ELS.
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2015-04-21T20:43:05Z faheem_: Shinmera: back already?
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2015-04-21T20:44:55Z faheem_: So, how was it, guys?
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2015-04-21T21:06:01Z Shinmera: faheem_: I ain't back. Still in London!
2015-04-21T21:06:09Z Shinmera: Sitting next to drmeister of clasp fame.
2015-04-21T21:06:20Z Shinmera: In our hotel's fancy bar no less.
2015-04-21T21:07:04Z Shinmera: faheem_: In short, it was a blast for me. I'm going to be writing an article to summarise it all, so I won't repeat myself here.
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2015-04-21T21:08:10Z faheem_: Shinmera: oh, pardon me. So, is ELS over? But still in London?
2015-04-21T21:08:22Z faheem_: How long is ELS?
2015-04-21T21:08:35Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-04-21T21:08:48Z Shinmera: ELS was two days. Yesterday and today. Now it's night, so it's all over.
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2015-04-21T21:12:42Z emaczen: For the sake of developing cocoa applications with CCL, how can I convert xib files to nib files? I asked on #ccl but it appears that nobody is there.
2015-04-21T21:12:48Z emaczen: If converting isn't the right solution, what is?
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2015-04-21T21:13:31Z kami: Has anybody written a quicklisp server to serve private libs in a company's intranet?
2015-04-21T21:14:27Z MutSbeta: Is there a function that constructs a list from the elements of another given list satisfying a predicate?
2015-04-21T21:14:46Z kami: Maybe with proxying capabilities, like 'get anything you don't have in your cache from upstream'?
2015-04-21T21:15:03Z Bicyclidine: MutSbeta: remove-if-not
2015-04-21T21:15:47Z MutSbeta: Bicyclidine: Thanks!
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2015-04-21T21:16:30Z Shinmera: kami: Not in a company's net, but I have my own dist.
2015-04-21T21:16:39Z Bicyclidine: kami: maybe you'd be interested in something xach has been working on adding? http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html
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2015-04-21T21:17:05Z Bicyclidine: xach said not to write blog posts and such about that, but i found the url on google, so i guess it's not working perfectly
2015-04-21T21:20:21Z faheem_: Shinmera: wow, only two days? That's intense.
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2015-04-21T21:20:53Z Shinmera: faheem_: I'm glad it isn't longer or I probably wouldn't have considered going.
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2015-04-21T21:21:10Z Shinmera: Because of cost and also skipping lectures.
2015-04-21T21:21:14Z faheem_: Shinmera: ok. personally, I like to catch my breath.
2015-04-21T21:21:31Z faheem_: Shinmera: fair enough. I guess London hotel prices are extortionate.
2015-04-21T21:22:24Z jasom: grr; why is this not finding the applicable method?
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2015-04-21T21:23:33Z kami: Bicyclidine: thank you. Looks very interesting.
2015-04-21T21:24:22Z kami: Shinmera: any links about that dist mechanism?
2015-04-21T21:24:41Z Shinmera: kami: I use some wrapper code around quickdist to make it comfortable to update. https://github.com/Shirakumo/dist
2015-04-21T21:25:09Z Shinmera: dists, as the rest of quicklisp, are -- as of now -- undocumented. But it works wonderfully.
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2015-04-21T21:29:49Z kami: Shinmera: the code in your repo helps setting up shirakumo.txt, releases.txt, systems.txt and the directory structure?
2015-04-21T21:30:31Z Shinmera: The code in my repo cares about fetching GIT sources, updating them, and fixing quickdist for my custom date format.
2015-04-21T21:30:58Z Shinmera: Quickdist then takes care of bundling folders into the proper package format and generating the various .txt files necessary for Quicklisp to get its information.
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2015-04-21T21:32:01Z kami: Shinmera: that sounds great. Will dive into your code tomorrow and probably bug you with questions, if I may.
2015-04-21T21:32:08Z Shinmera: Sure.
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2015-04-21T21:32:27Z Shinmera: I'm going to be heading to bed soon, have to catch a plane tomorrow and get through the London public transport somehow.
2015-04-21T21:33:00Z kami: Good luck with that, and always "mind the gap"!
2015-04-21T21:33:07Z Shinmera: Thanks.
2015-04-21T21:33:21Z kami: Good night.
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2015-04-21T21:47:57Z Slothel: So I understand that spelling isn't vitally important in the same way that, say, newtonian physics is - but I've noticed a few fairly large news aggregators spelling very simple words incorrectly and makes me question the legitimacy of the stories
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2015-04-21T21:50:02Z pjb: Slothel: agreed.
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2015-04-21T22:22:24Z Xof: els2015 is over
2015-04-21T22:22:28Z Xof: I can tell because I am home
2015-04-21T22:22:33Z p_l: :D
2015-04-21T22:22:43Z Xof: thanks everyone, and all you people who missed it: you missed something good
2015-04-21T22:22:57Z p_l just arrived at the hotel for last night as well
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2015-04-21T22:27:23Z pjb: Xof: do you mean that we would need a European Lisp Seminar, placed, let's say, in Tenerife, and lasting a week or two?
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2015-04-21T22:29:57Z Xof: pjb: also with funding to pay me to go there
2015-04-21T22:30:00Z Xof: but yes
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2015-04-21T22:44:17Z faheem_: Slothel: correct spelling is important.
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2015-04-21T23:08:05Z Slothel: Soft question: How do you keep motivated at work if your company culture changes and your new management are complete dicks/ignorant of technical things and intrude on your work?
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2015-04-21T23:08:34Z pjb: Slothel: think about the paycheck.
2015-04-21T23:09:04Z Slothel: pjb: The paycheck is dismal as far as the average programming job is concerned
2015-04-21T23:09:10Z pjb: Once the paycheck is not enough to keep you motivated, ask for a raise, be denied, send resumes, resign, get hired to new place.
2015-04-21T23:09:31Z Slothel: pjb: I've begun looking for other places to work but I don't want to get fired in the mean time for not being productive
2015-04-21T23:10:03Z pjb: Bah, it doesn't really matter.
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2015-04-21T23:11:19Z Slothel: The pay is barely above the median for the avg american, and now management is behaving as if we should grovel for the right to work here
2015-04-21T23:11:36Z Slothel: I should find an irc channel that is dedicated to venting frustration
2015-04-21T23:11:38Z pjb: Yeah, just quit.
2015-04-21T23:11:56Z pjb: or get fired, depending on what's most advantageous for you.
2015-04-21T23:12:00Z _ANTARKTIDA___ is now known as egp__
2015-04-21T23:12:00Z Bike: just yell into the jerkcity irc
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2015-04-21T23:12:40Z Slothel: I think I can fake it until I get another job
2015-04-21T23:12:59Z Slothel: It just sucks that they hire these consultants to give them business tips
2015-04-21T23:13:07Z Slothel: and in the process of implementing this advice they destroy the culture
2015-04-21T23:13:21Z Slothel: when the culture was the thing that kept engineers working here despite the mediocre pay
2015-04-21T23:14:09Z drmeister: Hey folks.
2015-04-21T23:14:10Z pjb: In any case, don't worry over it.  Company fire people at will, you don't need to have any loyalty or any regret about them.
2015-04-21T23:14:16Z Xach: ahoy
2015-04-21T23:14:20Z drmeister: ELS talk went pretty well.
2015-04-21T23:14:29Z Xach: understatement otd
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2015-04-21T23:15:19Z Xach leaves all in peace for today -> zzz
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2015-04-21T23:16:47Z akkad: pjb especially NetFlix :P
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2015-04-21T23:18:18Z drmeister: I learned what tagging scheme I should implement for Clasp and that I need to learn how SBCL DEFINE-VOP works to implement something like it to speed up clasp.
2015-04-21T23:18:46Z nyef: drmeister: Ooh. What tagging scheme do you have in mind?
2015-04-21T23:20:13Z drmeister: Pretty much the same as clozure and sbcl.  0 in 0 bit for fixnums , 16 byte alignment on 64bit machine. Then I have tags to burn.   One tag for objects, one for Cons cells, one for characters.
2015-04-21T23:20:31Z drmeister: I'm coding it all up in my smart_ptr template class.
2015-04-21T23:20:47Z drmeister: I can automatically remove the object tag using C++ dereferencing operators.
2015-04-21T23:21:07Z drmeister: Do you have any suggestions?
2015-04-21T23:23:01Z drmeister: I think I have all the infrastructure to implement a performant compiler now that I've hooked in Cleavir. I just want to avoid making mistakes - that's why I came to ELS - I think I got what I was looking for.
2015-04-21T23:23:27Z drmeister: People seemed pretty jazzed about CL+C++. Have the talks had someone hooking some kind of C++ or C library into Common Lisp.
2015-04-21T23:24:17Z nyef: Okay, so there's a few different types of VOP in SBCL.
2015-04-21T23:25:19Z drmeister: I'd like to learn more about what they are about - but I'm exhausted now.
2015-04-21T23:26:02Z nyef: Fair enough. I'm hoping to be here a lot more over the next 2-3 weeks than I have been over the last month or so.
2015-04-21T23:27:07Z drmeister: Sweet - if you don't mind me bugging you with questions I'd really appreciate your advice.   I'm going to take a stab at it first to try and understand it.
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2015-04-21T23:28:09Z drmeister: There are about 3200 define-vops in SBCL - that's a lot.
2015-04-21T23:28:37Z nyef: The basic idea is a template for machine code. Inputs have to be like this, outputs like this, and these temporaries will be required, here's how to generate the actual code, and some sort of "cost".
2015-04-21T23:29:04Z drmeister: What about safety/size/speed levels?
2015-04-21T23:29:11Z nyef: There's a policy for some things.
2015-04-21T23:29:34Z nyef: Some VOPs are "template" VOPs, which means that they get associated with a lisp-level function such as NTHCDR or something crazy like that.
2015-04-21T23:29:35Z drmeister: And what about the type arguments?
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2015-04-21T23:30:02Z nyef: The compiler picks a "template" VOP for such a call if it can find one that matches what it knows about the types of the parameters and results.
2015-04-21T23:30:11Z nyef: Otherwise it compiles a full call.
2015-04-21T23:30:39Z nyef: There are "move" VOPs for copying things from one place to another or boxing and unboxing values. Stuff like that.
2015-04-21T23:31:26Z nyef: There's a move VOP for moving a boxed single-float to a floating-point register, and one for converting back to a boxed representation, for example.
2015-04-21T23:31:51Z nyef: And then there are some VOPs which are known to the compiler by name.
2015-04-21T23:32:05Z nyef: Almost all of which are used in IR2TRAN.
2015-04-21T23:32:41Z nyef: Things like setting up the entry-point and header for a function, doing various kinds of full-call, value-cell manipulation, stuff like that.
2015-04-21T23:32:50Z nyef: Also some parts of non-local exit.
2015-04-21T23:34:08Z drmeister: I'll talk to beach about it - there may be some overlap of functionality in cleavir and maybe llvm.  I dunno - I'm kind of fuzzy on the details but thats ok.  I'm pretty sure the solution to my speed problems is in there.
2015-04-21T23:34:29Z nyef: There very likely is.
2015-04-21T23:34:49Z drmeister: I don't have any problems in Clasp that pointer tagging and 3000 define-vop(s) can't solve.
2015-04-21T23:35:16Z nyef: It's like an instruction set for a virtual CPU in some ways.
2015-04-21T23:35:50Z drmeister: That's very a helpful image.
2015-04-21T23:36:10Z nyef: Three thousand VOPs seems a bit much for a single backend, but is believable for the system as a whole including all of the backends.
2015-04-21T23:36:46Z drmeister: nyef - Seriously?   There are different vops for different backends?
2015-04-21T23:37:21Z nyef: Sure. Most of them include generator functions for machine code.
2015-04-21T23:37:38Z drmeister: How much overlap is there of vops for the different backends?
2015-04-21T23:37:49Z nyef: A lot.
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2015-04-21T23:38:09Z nyef: Different instruction sets, obviously, but most of the same VOPs get implemented.
2015-04-21T23:38:17Z nyef: minion: arm port log?
2015-04-21T23:38:17Z minion: arm port log: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt
2015-04-21T23:38:19Z drmeister: Ok, so what would you say is the size of the set necessary to for one backend?
2015-04-21T23:38:51Z nyef: Also http://lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/arm-port-log-2.txt
2015-04-21T23:39:07Z nyef: How MUCH of one backend?
2015-04-21T23:39:23Z drmeister: Yeah - how many vops for one backend?
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2015-04-21T23:40:28Z drmeister: I mean - roughly.  Don't do any work.
2015-04-21T23:40:28Z nyef: It varies a bit, and there are macrolets and the like involved for some things.
2015-04-21T23:41:35Z faheem_: drmeister: hey. had a good time? Still awake?
2015-04-21T23:41:35Z nyef: So, a quick git grep define-vop src/compiler/arm/|wc says 337, but there's also a small handful in src/assembly/arm/.
2015-04-21T23:41:58Z faheem_: I see Helmut replied to your SLIME question. The answer appeared to be no.
2015-04-21T23:42:16Z faheem_: drmeister: did you get useful feedback?
2015-04-21T23:42:28Z faheem_: I mean on clasp at ELS.
2015-04-21T23:42:31Z drmeister: faheem_: Yeah, I'm glad I came.
2015-04-21T23:42:48Z drmeister: They recorded it - I hope there was film in the camera.
2015-04-21T23:43:09Z jasom: I'm betting there was no film in the camera
2015-04-21T23:43:11Z faheem_: drmeister: made useful contacts?
2015-04-21T23:43:14Z faheem_: jasom: why?
2015-04-21T23:43:22Z jasom: because it likely wasn't a film camera
2015-04-21T23:43:27Z faheem_: drmeister: i assume part of going to ELS was marketing.
2015-04-21T23:43:30Z jasom: either tape or solid-state storage
2015-04-21T23:43:32Z nyef: And that includes things for floating-point, bignums, FFI, unsafe pointer operations, function calling, fixnum math operations, unboxed math operations, control-flow, type-tests, array operations, various operations on symbols, and so on.
2015-04-21T23:43:32Z faheem_: jasom: ah, yes.
2015-04-21T23:43:37Z faheem_: jasom: :-)
2015-04-21T23:44:15Z jasom: drmeister: someone wrote a blog article a couple years back on adding a new vop for popcount I think
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2015-04-21T23:44:27Z drmeister: [Chemists like film]
2015-04-21T23:45:12Z faheem_: 2 days is pretty short. Debconf for example runs a good bit longer.
2015-04-21T23:45:21Z jasom: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/08/16/how-to-define-new-intrinsics-in-sbcl/
2015-04-21T23:45:44Z nyef: jasom: Yes, good point.
2015-04-21T23:45:55Z faheem_: drmeister: are you sticking around to talk to people for a bit, or are you on your way back?
2015-04-21T23:46:16Z nyef: jasom: Although that's for defining assembly for a specific lisp function, there are a number of different things that get done with VOPs that are hooked up with other mechanisms in the compiler.
2015-04-21T23:47:08Z nyef: drmeister: Also, one of the things that you can do once you have made a function known to the compiler via DEFKNOWN is write a type-deriver for it.
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2015-04-21T23:48:07Z faheem_: what does VOP stand for?
2015-04-21T23:48:13Z jasom: virtual operation maybe?
2015-04-21T23:48:44Z nyef: Yes, Virtual OPeration.
2015-04-21T23:48:48Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-04-21T23:49:03Z nyef: I have a newer version of arm-port-log-2.txt, but it's not in my webspace.
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2015-04-21T23:49:37Z jasom: someone also did an IR1 to LLVM compiler about 4 years ago I think
2015-04-21T23:49:58Z nyef: ... And I managed to neither script nor write down the method for updating my current webspace from my staging area. /-:
2015-04-21T23:50:21Z drmeister: jasom: I'm saving that article to read on the plane when I run out of laptop juice.   My flight here had no power and no wifi.   They might as well strap us to the back of a pterodactyl and feed us grubs and berries.
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2015-04-21T23:50:44Z antoszka: haha
2015-04-21T23:50:51Z drmeister: faheem_: I'm heading to bed.
2015-04-21T23:51:02Z drmeister: I'm exhausted but jetlag is keeping me up.
2015-04-21T23:51:06Z jasom: lol, last time I flew regularly for business there was no power in coach and no wifi anywhere
2015-04-21T23:52:46Z drmeister: nyef: I'll check into DEFKNOWN as well.  Are there other compiler optimization macros/functions I should check out?
2015-04-21T23:52:54Z pillton: You can get power and Wifi on planes now?!
2015-04-21T23:53:09Z antoszka: on some, you can
2015-04-21T23:53:21Z drmeister: pilton: If you fly Air Canada you do.
2015-04-21T23:53:23Z antoszka: can't say it's common, though
2015-04-21T23:53:32Z nyef: Anything involving DEFOPTIMIZER.
2015-04-21T23:53:37Z faheem_: drmeister: so going home tomorrow?
2015-04-21T23:53:40Z jasom: pillton: many transcontinental and nearly all transoceanic flights offer it
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2015-04-21T23:54:04Z drmeister: So DECLARE-VOB, DEFKNOWN and DEFOPTIMIZER - are those it?
2015-04-21T23:54:16Z nyef: There are a number of hooks in DEFOPTIMIZER which allow the compiler to say "and for THIS function, we do THIS..."
2015-04-21T23:54:32Z drmeister: faheem_: Yes - I'm going to try and take the trains and if I get lost some where I'll call Uber for an extraction.
2015-04-21T23:54:46Z faheem_: Uber?
2015-04-21T23:54:53Z pillton: jasom drmeister: That is great.
2015-04-21T23:54:55Z faheem_: off to sleep myself. take care, everyone.
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2015-04-21T23:55:05Z nyef: Oh, there are probably others, DEFINE-MOVE-FUN and DEFINE-MOVE-VOP come to mind, for example.
2015-04-21T23:55:06Z drmeister: It's a low cost taxi alternative.
2015-04-21T23:55:06Z antoszka tried Uber for the first time today
2015-04-21T23:55:24Z antoszka: can't say it was low cost, at least by my taxi standards ;)
2015-04-21T23:55:25Z drmeister: Uber was really slick.
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2015-04-21T23:56:14Z drmeister: I think it was about half of what I would have paid to take a taxi.   It's about 1.5 hours drive from Heathrow to my hotel in Greenwich.
2015-04-21T23:56:22Z cyphase quit (Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number)
2015-04-21T23:56:39Z drmeister: faheem_: Good night.
2015-04-21T23:57:02Z drmeister: nyef: I'm making a list.
2015-04-21T23:57:35Z jasom: London taxis are special
2015-04-21T23:57:48Z drmeister: nyef: I'm sure I'll get some benefit from LLVM - I don't have to worry about the POPCNT instruction with LLVM - it takes care of that for me.
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2015-04-21T23:58:22Z drmeister: It's one of the upsides (and downsides) of working with LLVM-IR.
2015-04-21T23:59:33Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2015-04-21T23:59:35Z nyef: Okay, found the magic. arm-port-log-2.txt updated.
2015-04-21T23:59:58Z drmeister: nyef: Was that for me?   arm-port-log-2.txt?