2015-04-20T00:00:23Z linux_dream: ok good tip
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2015-04-20T00:00:34Z linux_dream: honestly I feel like it's a bit over my head right now
2015-04-20T00:01:12Z axion: when you have a special var, ask yourself do you really need it, or can you program more functionally
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2015-04-20T00:03:32Z axion: are you just starting out linux_dream?
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2015-04-20T00:04:10Z linux_dream: yes it's my 1st program
2015-04-20T00:04:12Z linux_dream: in CL
2015-04-20T00:04:16Z pjb: linux_dream: on one hand, the REPL is useful to try out expressions, but on the other hand, in programs and libraries, it is much better to avoid toplevel forms that are not defining forms.  It is much better to write: (defun main () …)  (main)  than just   …
2015-04-20T00:04:18Z linux_dream: I've written a few in python already
2015-04-20T00:04:44Z pjb: Here in python you have a lot of toplevel forms and a big toplevel body that should be put in a function.
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2015-04-20T00:05:51Z linux_dream: https://github.com/arbolis/pythonstuff  is basically my whole programming experience
2015-04-20T00:07:12Z axion: linux_dream: a few style hints i notice you are not adhering to (if you want your code to be more concise and others to like looking at it): 1) concatenate function names with hyphens, not underscores. 2) predicate functions (already-a-stone) are normally differentiated by appending "-p" (or in the case of single words just "p"), as in "stonep"
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2015-04-20T00:09:13Z linux_dream: ok
2015-04-20T00:09:25Z linux_dream: Idon't use _'s anymore  now i use -'s
2015-04-20T00:09:49Z axion: i come form python too. i know how much different it can be, but once you start playing by the rules, it's pretty easy to write concise code quick like python :)
2015-04-20T00:10:05Z linux_dream: sounds amazing
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2015-04-20T00:14:27Z axion: linux_dream: also, i see some big problems in that paste
2015-04-20T00:15:43Z linux_dream: tell me
2015-04-20T00:15:49Z linux_dream: the comments are outdated
2015-04-20T00:16:05Z linux_dream: at some place(s) I 'm not doing what I comment nor plan to do so
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2015-04-20T00:16:40Z axion: well for starters, your dec/inc functions are already in the cl package
2015-04-20T00:17:17Z axion: check-if-adjascent[sp] is never using its arguments (globals instead)
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2015-04-20T00:18:35Z linux_dream: inc and dec, are cadr and stuff like that?
2015-04-20T00:18:58Z linux_dream: that part of the code was written by someone else, not me
2015-04-20T00:19:02Z linux_dream: I copied his code
2015-04-20T00:19:18Z linux_dream:  I didn't understood his mth and nth stuff
2015-04-20T00:19:57Z axion: incf/decf
2015-04-20T00:19:59Z linux_dream: that guy came from python too
2015-04-20T00:20:02Z axion: (incf *n*)
2015-04-20T00:20:04Z linux_dream: ah ok thanks
2015-04-20T00:20:25Z axion: also, why are you defining your board as *n* + 2?
2015-04-20T00:21:04Z linux_dream: because I need to check whether there are stones at the right side and left side,  and up and down from the intersection/square
2015-04-20T00:21:10Z linux_dream: and the board is 19x19
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2015-04-20T00:21:21Z linux_dream: I'd get out of bounds if I had not defined a 21x21  board
2015-04-20T00:21:44Z linux_dream: I keep the first and last rows and column full of 0's
2015-04-20T00:21:51Z linux_dream: (never stones there)
2015-04-20T00:21:54Z axion: seems like you may want a graph with edges and nodes
2015-04-20T00:22:07Z axion: are you familiar with graph theory?
2015-04-20T00:22:34Z linux_dream: no
2015-04-20T00:22:45Z linux_dream: here's the python's code: https://github.com/arbolis/pythonstuff/blob/master/goproblem_random/gorandom_1.py
2015-04-20T00:22:50Z axion: ok, let's ignore that for now
2015-04-20T00:22:53Z linux_dream: the code works
2015-04-20T00:23:25Z axion: i would start by making a MAKE-BOARD function that takes a width and height as arguments.
2015-04-20T00:23:57Z linux_dream: hmm ok and you'd call it how man y times?
2015-04-20T00:24:20Z axion: how many boards do you need?
2015-04-20T00:25:27Z linux_dream: 1
2015-04-20T00:25:44Z linux_dream: but I need to reset it to 0's    a few thousands of times later
2015-04-20T00:27:12Z axion: i'm really not familiar with the game of go, but that python code looks pretty trivial
2015-04-20T00:27:31Z linux_dream: imagine a chessboard
2015-04-20T00:27:45Z linux_dream: what I do is to put pieces 1 by 1 on the board randomly placed
2015-04-20T00:28:01Z linux_dream: when 2 are adjascent I report the total number of pieces I put on the board
2015-04-20T00:28:10Z linux_dream: and I repeat the process a few thousands of times
2015-04-20T00:28:30Z linux_dream: so that I can make an average out of it, etc.  even plot the distribution
2015-04-20T00:28:55Z linux_dream: you can think of the go board as a 19x19 chessboard .  it's exactly the same for the code
2015-04-20T00:30:21Z axion: ok...let's ignore the logic for now...
2015-04-20T00:30:35Z linux_dream: if I could do that in lisp easily I'd be happy
2015-04-20T00:30:35Z axion: sec...reading
2015-04-20T00:30:53Z linux_dream: I thought about translating my python code but if there's an easier way I'll all ears
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2015-04-20T01:08:20Z Bicyclidine: Does Alexandria not have a function to find the index of an extremum of a sequence?
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2015-04-20T02:21:46Z loke: Bicyclidine: (for x in SEQ maximizing x)
2015-04-20T02:22:04Z loke: Oh wait, the index
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2015-04-20T02:30:41Z Bicyclidine: loke: i wrote it myself, and i think you can do it quickly with iterate, but i just thought it would have already been somewhere.
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2015-04-20T02:46:03Z loke: Bicyclidine: I've noticed you usually don't need indexes very often in CL, unless you work with arrays
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2015-04-20T02:56:35Z Bicyclidine: i am working with arrays.
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2015-04-20T07:35:09Z allen: can someone please do my homework for me?
2015-04-20T07:35:23Z allen: the entire thing, i don't need explanations, i just want it done
2015-04-20T07:35:30Z p_l: NO
2015-04-20T07:35:36Z allen: i was being sarcastic
2015-04-20T07:35:42Z allen: thats my way of saying hello #Lisp
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2015-04-20T07:37:59Z Zhivago: Please put a bucket on your head and then fill it with cement.
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2015-04-20T08:50:52Z H4ns: why does (aref (make-array '(3) :fill-pointer 0 :initial-contents '(1 2 3)) 1) not raise an error?  is there an array accessor that observes the fill pointer for bounds checking?
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2015-04-20T08:54:21Z H4ns: well, to answer my first question: because the spec says so.
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2015-04-20T08:55:21Z lieven: fill pointers are mostly meant for vector-push(-extend). they're not really bounds.
2015-04-20T08:55:29Z H4ns: this is friggin awful
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2015-04-20T08:59:15Z lieven: if you want bounds checking on part of an array, I think you can use displaced arrays to achieve that.
2015-04-20T09:00:37Z H4ns: for my purposes, a bounds-checking version of aref will probably do.  it is a terrible thing to have in a language, though.
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2015-04-20T09:02:51Z pjb: H4ns: and for LENGTH.
2015-04-20T09:03:03Z pjb: H4ns: but aref doesn't depend on LENGTH, but on array-dimensions.
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2015-04-20T09:04:11Z pjb: H4ns: it is a good thing that you are able to set elements beyond fill-pointer, since that allows safe(r) modification of the array in multi-thread environments.
2015-04-20T09:04:17Z pjb: H4ns: you can use ELT which depends on LENGTH.
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2015-04-20T09:07:19Z p_l: Hello from ELS :)
2015-04-20T09:07:30Z pjb: Hi!
2015-04-20T09:07:32Z H4ns: p_l: o/
2015-04-20T09:07:34Z pjb: How's the weather?
2015-04-20T09:09:08Z p_l: pjb: quite nice, nicer than yesterday definitely
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2015-04-20T09:11:06Z p_l: Nice keynote by Xach
2015-04-20T09:12:06Z zacts: what keynote is this?
2015-04-20T09:12:33Z p_l: About Quicklisp, at ELS8
2015-04-20T09:13:42Z p_l: Nice to see that some tricks I used to dig in the past are going to be documented
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2015-04-20T11:18:39Z XachFu: https://github.com/quicklisp/els-london-2015 has the slides and script
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2015-04-20T11:20:22Z p_l: XachFu: it was a very enlightening keynote :)
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2015-04-20T13:14:14Z mrkkrp: Hello. One my friend tries to build one my program. My make file first retrieves all dependencies (successfully according to the log). Next it calls `buildapp' to build executable, but it somehow fails. It's very frustrating since I cannot reproduce this (tried different machines and distros). Looking at this fragment of the log: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147274 , could you make any assumption why it fails?
2015-04-20T13:14:14Z minion: mrkkrp, memo from pjb: have you had a look at beach's language learning application? https://github.com/robert-strandh/TransClime
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2015-04-20T13:18:53Z ehu: mrkkrp: it looks like different ASDF versions.
2015-04-20T13:19:13Z ehu: mrkkrp: are you using the same lisp and lisp version to build on?
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2015-04-20T13:21:56Z mrkkrp: what do you mean «the same lisp and lisp version»? I can only say that he uses SBCL 1.2.7. I was able to build it with SBCL 1.2.4.
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2015-04-20T13:25:18Z ehu: right. do these SBCL versions include the same version of ASDF?
2015-04-20T13:25:26Z mrkkrp: Makefile first retrieves all dependencies and compiles them, then it calls buildapp. So everything is compiled using the same CL implementation... My knowledge of his OS, etc. are quite limited, since I only have an email and log file. He lives in different country and we only collaborate via emails.
2015-04-20T13:25:51Z ehu: ok. let me put it differently.
2015-04-20T13:25:55Z mrkkrp: ok
2015-04-20T13:26:01Z ehu: can you try to build with his SBCL version?
2015-04-20T13:26:23Z ehu: (as in: can you build with SBCL 1.2.7 instead of 1.2.4?)
2015-04-20T13:27:08Z mrkkrp: OK, I will try it…
2015-04-20T13:27:36Z mrkkrp: How to leave a memo with help of minion?
2015-04-20T13:28:20Z ehu: minion memo for mrkkrp help me
2015-04-20T13:28:23Z ehu: hmm.
2015-04-20T13:28:27Z ehu: wrong syntax :-)
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2015-04-20T13:29:12Z mrkkrp: minion memo
2015-04-20T13:29:25Z ehu: minion: memo for mrkkrp: help me
2015-04-20T13:29:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell mrkkrp when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-04-20T13:29:39Z ehu: now that was the right syntax
2015-04-20T13:29:47Z mrkkrp: cool
2015-04-20T13:29:47Z minion: mrkkrp, memo from ehu: help me
2015-04-20T13:30:49Z mrkkrp: minion: memo for pjb: this is quite interesting project according to the description, although it has very little in common with mine
2015-04-20T13:30:49Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-04-20T13:33:49Z mrkkrp: Where do I get SBCL 1.2.7 ?
2015-04-20T13:34:18Z XachFu: mrkkrp: how old is the buildapp in question?
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2015-04-20T13:34:34Z XachFu: mrkkrp: the warning about QUIT is a red flag that it might be too old
2015-04-20T13:35:28Z mrkkrp: I've given him this link: http://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/
2015-04-20T13:35:31Z XachFu is troubleshooting from the back row at ELS!
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2015-04-20T13:36:27Z mrkkrp: I've build it from git repo and from the archive, both methods give the same result.
2015-04-20T13:39:09Z XachFu: mrkkrp: built buildapp?
2015-04-20T13:39:48Z XachFu: mrkkrp: can you try buildapp with --dumpfile-copy dumper.lisp and paste dumper.lisp?
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2015-04-20T13:40:07Z XachFu: mrkkrp: his buildapp - the one that's failing
2015-04-20T13:40:27Z mrkkrp: I need to write him, then.
2015-04-20T13:42:23Z XachFu: mrkkrp: i strongly suspect he is using an old buildapp. using the latest from quicklisp will help.
2015-04-20T13:42:31Z XachFu: or from github, or anywhere else
2015-04-20T13:42:36Z mrkkrp: So he should call `buildap --dumpfile-copy dumper.lisp' from the directory with sources of buildapp?
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2015-04-20T13:43:13Z XachFu: mrkkrp: no - when http://paste.lisp.org/display/147274 -- adding it in to that command line
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2015-04-20T13:44:13Z XachFu: mrkkrp: but again, i think using the latest buildapp will solve the problems
2015-04-20T13:44:15Z mrkkrp: Hm.. is there just some way to get version of builapp? It's strange it doesn't have --version option.
2015-04-20T13:44:30Z XachFu: mrkkrp: a sad oversight for which there is an open issue. :( sorry
2015-04-20T13:44:52Z mrkkrp: I will write him and ask how did he install/build builapp.
2015-04-20T13:45:08Z mrkkrp: And recommend git repo.
2015-04-20T13:46:07Z mrkkrp: Maybe he installed it from repositories of his distro…
2015-04-20T13:46:52Z XachFu: mrkkrp: that is a potential problem, yes
2015-04-20T13:47:45Z XachFu: https://github.com/xach/buildapp/issues/18 -- someday i will fix it
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2015-04-20T13:57:01Z ehu: mrkkrp: usually
2015-04-20T13:57:02Z ehu: $ buildapp ...
2015-04-20T13:57:02Z ehu: will use the system default. if you need the one in the current directory, you want:
2015-04-20T13:57:02Z ehu: $ ./buildapp ...
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2015-04-20T13:57:49Z mrkkrp: ehu, thank you, I know that :)
2015-04-20T14:00:52Z ehu: mrkkrp: right. but you didn't write it.
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2015-04-20T17:05:55Z shka: good evening all
2015-04-20T17:06:07Z shka: i have silly question related to arrays
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2015-04-20T17:06:34Z shka: i'm storing objects in the array
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2015-04-20T17:07:19Z shka: and i want to return and pass basicly pointers to those objects between functions
2015-04-20T17:07:35Z shka: and i have no idea how lisp behaves here
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2015-04-20T17:10:03Z BRPocock: essentially everything are ref-counted, garbage-collected pointers, so you don't have to do anything special.
2015-04-20T17:11:10Z shka: BRPocock: how this can be correct if i do the following?
2015-04-20T17:11:20Z shka: (defvar *test-string* "string")
2015-04-20T17:11:27Z shka: (defun set-to-lol (object) (setf object "lol"))
2015-04-20T17:11:38Z shka: (set-to-lol *test-string*)
2015-04-20T17:11:45Z shka: *test-string*
2015-04-20T17:11:52Z shka: "string"
2015-04-20T17:12:06Z shka: is it different for special variables?
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2015-04-20T17:12:42Z shka: i'm confused right now
2015-04-20T17:13:17Z BRPocock: I'm a bit perplexed by the pattern, to "setf" a dynamic(=special) var
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2015-04-20T17:14:43Z shka: ok, let me try with lexical
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2015-04-20T17:15:30Z BRPocock: but what you printed seems correct, yes. I don't see how this relates to arrays?
2015-04-20T17:15:46Z BRPocock: aside from strings being a special type of array?
2015-04-20T17:16:21Z shka: (let ((test "string")) (let ((test2 test)) (setf test2 "string2")) test)
2015-04-20T17:16:34Z shka: the following returns "string"
2015-04-20T17:16:36Z BRPocock: Your 'set-to-lol' does not do what you think it does, I think.
2015-04-20T17:16:54Z shka: BRPocock: i just want to know when lisp creates copy of the object, and when not
2015-04-20T17:17:04Z Bike: It only creates a copy of the object when you explicitly tell it to.
2015-04-20T17:17:15Z BRPocock: (set-to-lol "string") does not change *test-string*
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2015-04-20T17:17:28Z Bike: (setf test2 "string2") doesn't affect the CONTENTS of test2, just the variable test2.
2015-04-20T17:17:55Z shka: oh, ok
2015-04-20T17:18:12Z shka: Bike: that makes sense, i guess
2015-04-20T17:18:29Z shka: but what if i want to pass reference?
2015-04-20T17:18:36Z BRPocock: & the name "object" within "set-to-lol" is changed to mean "lol", but the original value passed in is lost
2015-04-20T17:18:37Z shka: should i cons it and pass list?
2015-04-20T17:19:14Z Bike: I don't remember enough C to remember how reference passing works. Could you explain what behavior you want?
2015-04-20T17:19:26Z shka: well, this is quite simple
2015-04-20T17:19:29Z Bike: using a cons is one way to have a celll.
2015-04-20T17:19:36Z p_l: 27
2015-04-20T17:19:38Z p_l: oops
2015-04-20T17:20:06Z shka: basicly, in C we have pointers that essentially points to memory
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2015-04-20T17:20:52Z shka: so when we pass pointer to function, we can change the object that it points to
2015-04-20T17:20:58Z shka: in destructive way
2015-04-20T17:21:41Z Bike: okay, so you basically want a cell. you can use a cons for that, sure.
2015-04-20T17:21:59Z shka: yeah, but what about array?
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2015-04-20T17:22:05Z Bike: lisp objects are always like that. if you pass an array and alter it (eg (setf (aref array ...) ...)) the change will be everywhere.
2015-04-20T17:22:12Z shka: allocating cells in array seems to be kinda silly
2015-04-20T17:22:15Z Bike: Your setf example doesn't change the array, so it doesn't change the array.
2015-04-20T17:22:35Z shka: well, maybe not cells
2015-04-20T17:22:36Z shka: cons
2015-04-20T17:22:46Z shka: cons cells
2015-04-20T17:22:50Z BRPocock: to change elements within the array, or to replace one array with another?
2015-04-20T17:23:00Z shka: change within the array
2015-04-20T17:23:04Z Bike: You're doing something like void foo(void* bar) { void* baz = bar; baz = some_other_object(); } and expecting a call foo(thing) to change thing.
2015-04-20T17:23:15Z Bike: which it of course doesn't.
2015-04-20T17:23:30Z shka: yeah, i see what happens here
2015-04-20T17:23:50Z shka: but i still don't know how to handle this
2015-04-20T17:24:02Z shka: consing everything is a bit pain
2015-04-20T17:24:14Z BRPocock: (defun aref+1 (array index) (incf (aref array index))) ;; ?
2015-04-20T17:24:38Z Bike: shka: Well, could you explain what you're actually doing?
2015-04-20T17:24:50Z shka: sure
2015-04-20T17:25:21Z BRPocock: (defvar *array* #(1 1 1))  (aref+1 *array* 2)  *array* ⇒ #( 1 1 2 )
2015-04-20T17:25:25Z shka: i have a data-set that is basicly vector of objects, each one containing another vector
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2015-04-20T17:25:46Z jasom: shka: one style is to always assign the result of your function, whether or not it assigns within-place
2015-04-20T17:25:48Z shka: now, i want to move objects beetween those inner vectors
2015-04-20T17:26:14Z jasom: shka: see for example most functions starting with "N" in the standard; you can't safely assume the object is modified, you need to assign
2015-04-20T17:26:25Z shka: and once one of those inner vectors is empty, i'm removing it from outer array
2015-04-20T17:27:14Z BRPocock: (setf (aref dest-array dest-index) (aref src-array src-index) (aref src-array src-index) nil ) ; ?
2015-04-20T17:27:30Z shka: i can do that
2015-04-20T17:27:39Z shka: the problem is, it is a bit opaque
2015-04-20T17:28:04Z BRPocock: If that's a common metaphor in your code, I would make it a macro for legibility
2015-04-20T17:28:22Z shka: i may end up doing just that
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2015-04-20T17:28:54Z shka: howevr, it wouldn't be ideal imho
2015-04-20T17:29:16Z shka: since you don't want to pass array of objects to a function that operate on just two objects
2015-04-20T17:29:29Z BRPocock: what would some analogous C to this process to be?
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2015-04-20T17:29:48Z shka: well, in C i would simply pass pointer and be done with it
2015-04-20T17:29:57Z shka: however, i would mutate my data
2015-04-20T17:30:01Z BRPocock: if given just two objects, how would the arrays themselves be altered?
2015-04-20T17:30:46Z shka: my scanario is that each of those objects contains array as a slot
2015-04-20T17:31:16Z shka: so i have two levels of arrays
2015-04-20T17:32:09Z BRPocock: so vec-root = #( vec-a = #( obj-0 obj-1 … ) vec-b … ) and obj-0 in turn has a pointer to vec-a ?
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2015-04-20T17:32:41Z shka: wouldn't you mind to show this in some C++ code?
2015-04-20T17:32:55Z shka: *mind me
2015-04-20T17:33:09Z BRPocock: have you an example, I am confused, but I do still have to read C++ sometimes
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2015-04-20T17:34:14Z shka: ok, so i have std::vector<Instance>
2015-04-20T17:34:27Z shka: each Instance has std::vector<Instance2>
2015-04-20T17:34:45Z shka: so those two vectors are not directly connected in any way
2015-04-20T17:34:56Z shka: no cyclic dependency or anything
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2015-04-20T17:35:15Z shka: this is exactly my scenario
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2015-04-20T17:35:34Z BRPocock: and you with to move "instance" or "instance2" between which vectors?
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2015-04-20T17:36:03Z shka: i move instance2 objects beetween instance objects
2015-04-20T17:36:28Z shka: and once Instance has no Instance2, i'm going to remove it from the std:vector<instance>
2015-04-20T17:37:02Z BRPocock: are these vectors because order is significant, or do they act like sets?
2015-04-20T17:37:16Z shka: order is not significant
2015-04-20T17:37:22Z shka: i can use hash
2015-04-20T17:37:38Z shka: for the sake of simplicity i sticked to array
2015-04-20T17:37:40Z BRPocock: I would tend to just use the normal list functions like appendf, removef or hash-table if there are very many
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2015-04-20T17:38:11Z shka: ok i see where are we going
2015-04-20T17:38:22Z shka: well, let's summarize
2015-04-20T17:38:28Z BRPocock: Arrays are "harder" because they have a length and indexed slots.
2015-04-20T17:39:12Z shka: 1) variables are passed as pointers, however setf only changes binding of the local variable, not the variable itself
2015-04-20T17:39:22Z shka: 2) this those not include cons cells though
2015-04-20T17:39:24Z BRPocock: setf changed the "place" you name.
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2015-04-20T17:39:43Z shka: BRPocock: yeah
2015-04-20T17:39:43Z BRPocock: But when you pass a value into a function, the "name" is not carried with it.
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2015-04-20T17:41:00Z BRPocock: the "name" within the function is the name on the lambda-list, so (defun set-to-lol (object) (setf object "lol")) alters OBJECT, not the thing which OBJECT held
2015-04-20T17:41:08Z shka: well, i guess it can be simply explained as having pointer that can be binded to new heap allocated object, but not used to change existing object
2015-04-20T17:41:25Z shka: pardon me, i'm C++ programmer
2015-04-20T17:41:33Z shka: -_-'
2015-04-20T17:41:52Z shka: that's all fine
2015-04-20T17:41:58Z shka: and a lot cleaner
2015-04-20T17:42:27Z BRPocock: Just as void set-to-lol (std::string object) { object = "lol" } won't alter anything by set-to-lol(some-other-string), I think
2015-04-20T17:42:35Z shka: you would be surprised to see how much time i spend actually fighting this semanitic
2015-04-20T17:42:57Z shka: BRPocock: the better annalogy would be something like that
2015-04-20T17:43:20Z BRPocock: except s/-/_/ rather
2015-04-20T17:43:38Z shka: void set-to-lol(lol* object) {object = new lol;}
2015-04-20T17:44:01Z shka: that's what happens, more or less
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2015-04-20T17:44:21Z shka: well, that was increadible helpful
2015-04-20T17:44:28Z shka: BRPocock: thank you for your time
2015-04-20T17:44:33Z BRPocock: Actually "lol" will always be a pointer to the same string on each call to set-to-lol, not a freshly-consed one
2015-04-20T17:44:33Z shka: Bike: thank you as well
2015-04-20T17:45:15Z shka: BRPocock: oh, is that in standard?
2015-04-20T17:45:45Z BRPocock: if you returned it and mutated it, everyone would see the change. I believe, can anyone confirm if that's CLHS?
2015-04-20T17:46:54Z BRPocock: (defun blah () "blah") (setf (elt (blah) 2) #\n) (blah) ⇒ "blnh"
2015-04-20T17:47:35Z BRPocock: I believe it's required, but it's considered very bad form.
2015-04-20T17:48:01Z Bike: modifying constants is undefined
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2015-04-20T17:49:24Z BRPocock: and actively punished by anyone who must come after you with great fervour.
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2015-04-20T17:50:20Z shka: Well, that's what anyone with brain would expect
2015-04-20T17:50:43Z BRPocock: thanks Bike, I didn't know
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2015-04-20T17:50:52Z shka: ok, thanks everyone
2015-04-20T17:50:56Z shka: and have a nice evening
2015-04-20T17:51:07Z shka: Bike: btw, are you at the conference?
2015-04-20T17:51:26Z Bike: the european thing? nope
2015-04-20T17:52:01Z shka: ah, you are from USA
2015-04-20T17:52:24Z Bike: not in a position to travel long distances either, i'm afraid
2015-04-20T17:52:42Z shka: somehow i thinked that you are from Europe
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2015-04-20T17:53:06Z shka: so i guess it is around 12:00 there
2015-04-20T17:53:52Z BRPocock: it's about 14:00 on the East coast here
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2015-04-20T18:10:11Z pjb: shka: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp
2015-04-20T18:10:11Z minion: pjb, memo from mrkkrp: this is quite interesting project according to the description, although it has very little in common with mine
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2015-04-20T18:12:45Z shka: pjb: this sounds interesting, though i'm not even sure if i really want to use pointers
2015-04-20T18:12:58Z pjb: You definitely don't want to use them at all indeed.
2015-04-20T18:13:10Z shka: especially in cl
2015-04-20T18:13:14Z pjb: It's just to show how silly (defun f (x) (setf x 42)) is.
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2015-04-20T18:14:09Z shka: pjb: perhaps those can be usefull for hardware level work
2015-04-20T18:14:18Z pjb: No.
2015-04-20T18:14:30Z shka: ok, so i will read this for fun
2015-04-20T18:14:46Z shka: since it seems to be not so terribly usefull
2015-04-20T18:14:52Z pjb: That's the intended purpose :-)
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2015-04-20T18:16:52Z Bike: the stuff in the post isn't machine pointers, which would introduce many exciting problems with garbage collection. so they're slower, probably, lambdas and such
2015-04-20T18:17:05Z pjb: shka: the point is that variables are not passed at all as parameter! Just like in C, only values are passed as parameter!
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2015-04-20T18:17:27Z pjb: shka: The value of the variable (the r-value) is passed to the function.
2015-04-20T18:18:13Z Bike: c++ is apparently more complicated. you can write methods on = or something...
2015-04-20T18:18:14Z pjb: In lisp, just like in C, there's only pass-by-value parameters.
2015-04-20T18:18:43Z shka: Bike: nah, it is pretty much the same thing underneath
2015-04-20T18:18:47Z pjb: Yes, C++ lets you write your own language.  The problem with C++, is that you HAVE to write your own language first, because otherwise, it's unusable.
2015-04-20T18:19:03Z shka: well move semantics is a little bit different
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2015-04-20T18:19:49Z pjb: there's no move semantics in lisp, but you could write a macro to implement it. (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (movef a b) (assert (and (= 2 a) (null b))))
2015-04-20T18:20:04Z pjb: actually, there's already shiftf to do that.
2015-04-20T18:20:13Z shka: pjb: why i would want to use that anyway?
2015-04-20T18:20:27Z pjb: (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (shiftf a b nil) (list a b)) --> (2 nil)
2015-04-20T18:20:31Z pjb: Who asked for move semantics?
2015-04-20T18:21:00Z shka: pjb: i don't think anybody would need that
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2015-04-20T18:21:10Z pjb: Well, they seem to like it in C++.
2015-04-20T18:21:21Z shka: it is different paradgim
2015-04-20T18:21:37Z shka: things that works in C++ makes zeo sense in common lisp
2015-04-20T18:21:37Z BRPocock: They use it in lieu of proper GC/ref counting.
2015-04-20T18:21:58Z pjb: C++ makes zero sense.
2015-04-20T18:22:03Z BRPocock: "Moving" ensures that the refcount must be 1, since nobody is counting.
2015-04-20T18:22:13Z shka: and things that work in common lisp perfectly fine, can't work in C++ nearly well (if at all)
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2015-04-20T18:22:49Z shka: those are basicly two different worlds
2015-04-20T18:23:12Z pjb: shka: well, there's still: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html
2015-04-20T18:25:25Z shka: pjb: i would not use that
2015-04-20T18:26:00Z shka: but we all could use low level lisp
2015-04-20T18:26:39Z shka: ideally, language that can be easily connected with common lisp
2015-04-20T18:26:40Z BRPocock: you can use C-level pointers, it's just not part of CLHS. But nearly everyone has such an option. I've written hardware IO is SBCL.
2015-04-20T18:27:11Z shka: without so many features
2015-04-20T18:27:30Z shka: with simple model, that can be turned in very efficient code esasilly
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2015-04-20T18:28:05Z ynix: How can I define a variable local to a function?
2015-04-20T18:28:13Z shka: ynix: use let
2015-04-20T18:28:29Z shka: for instance (let ((variable "hello world))…
2015-04-20T18:28:29Z ynix: shka: When I use let, I get an "undefined variable"
2015-04-20T18:28:41Z zacts: is flet just like a locally named lambda?
2015-04-20T18:29:00Z zacts: or are CL lambdas fully analogous to scheme lambdas?
2015-04-20T18:29:25Z shka: zacts: cl has separate namespace for variables and lambdas
2015-04-20T18:29:28Z zacts: pjb: are you also on #kernelnewbies on oftc?
2015-04-20T18:29:34Z ynix: shka: nvm figured it out
2015-04-20T18:29:39Z zacts: shka: ah ok
2015-04-20T18:30:24Z shka: so code like (let ((something (lambda (x) (print x)))… would give you lambda binded to the something but in order to call it you will need to actually use funcall
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2015-04-20T18:30:43Z shka: simply doing (something "hello") would not do the job
2015-04-20T18:30:49Z zacts: oh I see
2015-04-20T18:31:28Z shka: it makes thing just a little bit more ankward
2015-04-20T18:31:45Z shka: minor issue
2015-04-20T18:33:41Z shka: zacts: hopefully you will have fun hacking in cl :-)
2015-04-20T18:34:45Z zacts: thanks!
2015-04-20T18:35:44Z _death: hmm is ELS ongoing
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2015-04-20T18:44:17Z zacts: bbl
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2015-04-20T19:15:43Z pjb: _death: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ says it is.
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2015-04-20T19:33:26Z flip214: Xach: thanks for providing the ELS presentation!! (though, at least for me, white on black is hard on the eyes. but that might just be me. thanks nonetheless!)
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2015-04-20T20:23:58Z akkad hunts for a statsd interface in cl
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2015-04-20T20:26:09Z pjb: use cffi?
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2015-04-20T20:27:10Z pjb: or sockets?
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2015-04-20T20:30:42Z hdkwkd: Is there something like request in python
2015-04-20T20:30:49Z hdkwkd: cl-request?
2015-04-20T20:31:01Z pjb: as soon as you'll port it.
2015-04-20T20:31:07Z pjb: It's a free world!
2015-04-20T20:31:37Z pjb: You could make a collection of libraries named sap-X for same-as-python-X.
2015-04-20T20:31:45Z hdkwkd: drakma has some request function
2015-04-20T20:31:46Z jasom: hdkwkd: I think most people use drakma for http
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2015-04-20T20:32:20Z hdkwkd: you could also use burgler-batteries to interface lisp with python and use any python library
2015-04-20T20:32:58Z hdkwkd: sap is someting like single area pointer in sbcl
2015-04-20T20:33:08Z pjb: sapy-X then.
2015-04-20T20:33:36Z hdkwkd: I haven't tried burgler-batteries, but if one can use all python libraries then that is handy
2015-04-20T20:34:46Z pjb: hdkwkd: perhaps you could also write a cliki.net page mapping python libraries to CL libraries?
2015-04-20T20:34:57Z pjb: Since you seem to be knowing about python.
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2015-04-20T20:35:48Z jasom: since drakma was never as obtuse as urllib2, there really isn't an exact match for requests; drakma should be fine though
2015-04-20T20:36:01Z hdkwkd: To be honest, I use whatever language I find more handy, sometimes ruby, javascript or lisp
2015-04-20T20:36:19Z hdkwkd: but I don't program, only little bits of code for pleasure
2015-04-20T20:38:53Z hdkwkd: I remember clpython from W. Broekema was a many years project, but is not used a lot
2015-04-20T20:39:20Z jasom: hdkwkd: (drakma:http-request "https://api.github.com/jasom" :basic-authorization '("user" "pass"))  <-- the example from the requests homepage translated to drakma
2015-04-20T20:39:25Z hdkwkd: there is also hy, a python with lisp syntax, handy for lispers, but weak on macros (of course)
2015-04-20T20:41:08Z hdkwkd: sometimes documentation is important, projects with many users tend to be better documented, but not always
2015-04-20T20:43:32Z hdkwkd: Not long ago, I solved a rota challenge in Lisp then use that to make an array with the solutions  with ruby and connect to the server with ruby request package. www.praetorian.com/challenges
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2015-04-20T20:45:45Z hdkwkd: the library request in python: python for humans: https://github.com/kennethreitz/requests
2015-04-20T20:48:18Z hdkwkd: In the original question about using statsd, there is a use case by one guy at flick, he use udp sockets, so low level stuff,
2015-04-20T20:48:37Z hdkwkd: http://code.flickr.net/2008/10/27/counting-timing/
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2015-04-20T20:49:28Z pjb: hdkwkd: notice that those free software projects are specifically provided with all the sources, so you may write the documentation (since you're not a programmer), and contribute it to those projects.
2015-04-20T20:49:40Z pjb: hdkwkd: you could even write books about them and sell those books!
2015-04-20T20:50:14Z hdkwkd: Selling books and getting some money of it is a very very difficult task, for example shen author Mark Tarver
2015-04-20T20:50:41Z pjb: Yeah. I wouldn't bother either.  Just write the doc and push it back on the git repositories of those projects.
2015-04-20T20:51:22Z hdkwkd: Today very few people can earn moeny with books, and hackers learn with the snippet of code floating around
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2015-04-20T20:52:41Z hdkwkd: Perhas some day I can create a good algorithm that can solve a difficult task in real life, but you have to know a lot  about the problem
2015-04-20T20:53:22Z hdkwkd: be it economic, health, security, IA, data mining, UI, or something else
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2015-04-20T20:54:24Z hdkwkd: Perhaps something interesting can be done with the small devices like raspberry pi
2015-04-20T20:54:53Z hdkwkd: I remember someone use to do fpga programming with lisp, don't know how it is going
2015-04-20T20:55:50Z hdkwkd: Just for curiosity, for pjb, has you done any commertial application in Lisp?
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2015-04-20T20:56:27Z pjb: Yes.
2015-04-20T20:56:31Z kephra: hdkwkd, http://curtis.io/others-work/open-tooling-for-fpgas <- the problem with fpga is much deeper then Lisp could solve
2015-04-20T20:56:34Z pjb: I mean, I've earned money writing lisp code.
2015-04-20T20:57:23Z hdkwkd: Also there is: Request.el – Easy HTTP request for Emacs Lisp
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2015-04-20T20:58:06Z hdkwkd: Marc Battyani - Lisp, the Universe and Everything
2015-04-20T20:58:33Z hdkwkd: I think Marc Battyni was working with fpga, there was a my-road-to-lisp comment
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2015-04-20T20:59:33Z hdkwkd: Marc Battyni: I'm the CTO of NovaSparks a startup I founded in 2008 to make ultra-low latency FPGA based supercomputers for the financial markets.
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2015-04-20T21:02:30Z hdkwkd: now http://www.fractalconcept.com/     I don't know if Marc is using Lisp or something else to sell his products
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2015-04-20T21:04:31Z kephra: you might just read C.h.Moore backwards - iirc, he has a complete toolchain: forth os, forth metacompiler to generate fpga code to match the primitives of the image, upload by jtag
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2015-04-20T21:05:31Z kephra: running in 64 kilo words of 16 bits
2015-04-20T21:06:48Z hdkwkd: I remember a Lisp was using Forth working in a one child computer project (something like that) livejournal, author contributor of emacs, photo a market
2015-04-20T21:07:11Z hdkwkd: Luke Gorrie OK, I remember his name
2015-04-20T21:08:15Z hdkwkd: But no more forth, the One laptop per  OLPC project didn't go anywhere.  Now baspberry pi is taking its place. Wolfram Mathematica is free int the raspberry pi
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2015-04-20T21:09:30Z hdkwkd: Now there is the IoT (the internet of things), there is a some money from the European Union for new technology about this, but there is a lot of vaporware
2015-04-20T21:09:31Z kephra: but its a nice dream about a Lisp CPU in FPGA defined by Lisp code and not the ugly industry tool chain
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2015-04-20T21:10:06Z PuercoPop: hdkwkd: there is also https://github.com/dgrnbrg/piplin but that is clojure related
2015-04-20T21:10:08Z hdkwkd: Yes, nice dream
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2015-04-20T21:11:24Z hdkwkd: Piplin sound good. One more thing in my list for thing to look up
2015-04-20T21:12:23Z hdkwkd: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/piplin , gives there nothing here, so is a low activity group or project
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2015-04-20T21:13:38Z hdkwkd: Forth is nice for very small programs, like J, but I don't find it handy when there is a lot of code.
2015-04-20T21:13:38Z Bicyclidine: i have to do some FPGAing in the fall. i hope that one person here's xilinx-skipping system is miraculously done by then.
2015-04-20T21:14:40Z hdkwkd: Dont know about xilink, is this: Xilinx System Generator for DSP - MathWorks
2015-04-20T21:15:18Z Bicyclidine: xilinx is one of the big fpga manufacturers. their proprietary software for designing systems is horrifying.
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2015-04-20T21:16:02Z jasom: it's typical "hardware company" software
2015-04-20T21:16:08Z Bicyclidine: i think that thing you googled for is a matlab thing that lets you take one of their DSP models and instantiate it on an fpga.
2015-04-20T21:16:32Z hdkwkd: I imagine that haskell people will be working in that.  Googling: xilinx-lava: The Lava system for Xilinx FPGA
2015-04-20T21:16:40Z Bicyclidine: useful for ye old hard realtime
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2015-04-20T21:16:48Z Bicyclidine: yeah, there was a person here doing it with lisp too.
2015-04-20T21:17:06Z jasom: I think nearly every functional or dataflow language has had a half-assed FPGA backend at some point
2015-04-20T21:17:09Z Bicyclidine: stacksmith. not here at the moment https://github.com/stacksmith/fpgasm
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2015-04-20T21:17:39Z hdkwkd:  An implementation of Lava for Xilinx's FPGAs can be found at Hackage and installed with "cabal install xilinx-lava".
2015-04-20T21:17:53Z jasom: even super obscure ones like Lucid
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2015-04-20T21:18:24Z hdkwkd: Don't use or gates, or you will end with orgasm
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2015-04-20T21:18:44Z hdkwkd: Sorry
2015-04-20T21:20:16Z hdkwkd: http://blog.raintown.org/p/lava.html is a simple document with examples
2015-04-20T21:21:00Z Bicyclidine: you didn't need to look this up for me, but thanks
2015-04-20T21:21:19Z hdkwkd: I imagine you know a bit about fpga, I don't
2015-04-20T21:21:41Z Bicyclidine: well, the basic aspect is that as jasom kind of implied, hardware companies write really terrible software.
2015-04-20T21:22:15Z Bicyclidine: xilinx ise is a download of like five GB or something, much of which is freaky identical java classfiles and other weird stuff. i would rather use lisp if i could
2015-04-20T21:22:48Z hdkwkd: perhaps you can use lisp with haskell
2015-04-20T21:23:28Z hdkwkd: don't know if there is something with elixir here.
2015-04-20T21:26:34Z hdkwkd: Erlang elexir and fpga few things in the web
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2015-04-20T21:29:07Z hdkwkd: has to go, bye, learned new things, thanks
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2015-04-20T21:33:26Z hdkwkd: Speaker #1: Hans Hübner on Creating computers from (almost) scratch using FPGAs, VHDL and Forth.  https://zslug.wordpress.com/
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2015-04-20T21:38:46Z Zom`: Hi guys, got a question of style/practice. I've been making (make-foo) functions for all of my classes to avoid repetitive (make-instance 'Foo) everywhere. I feel like it gives me the option to change the actual instance being created later on without breaking the other code, but part of me figures I could just change the Foo class or use initialize-instance to achieve the same redesign. Is it common to see (make-foo) wrappers around
2015-04-20T21:38:46Z Zom`: (make-instance 'Foo) or does everyone in the 'real world' just use (make-instance 'Foo) all the time and not worry about it?
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2015-04-20T21:44:14Z nyef: Zom`: It's a bit situational. In one memorable case, the declared interface for creating instances of a specific sort of class had a designated mechanism to allow a program or library to override what class would actually be used.
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2015-04-20T21:49:42Z Zom`: nyef: Thanks for the reply. That sounds interesting, but I imagine it could become quite confusing. Having looked closely at my code I think my question is a symptom of a design issue, but I'd be interested to hear anyone else's opinions on (make-foo) vs (make-instance 'foo)
2015-04-20T21:50:15Z White_Flame: can (make-instance 'foo) be overridden to return an already existing object?  obviously (make-foo) could do that
2015-04-20T21:50:42Z White_Flame: think object pooling and such
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2015-04-20T21:55:53Z nyef: White_Flame: Maybe? Have a look at ALLOCATE-INSTANCE.
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2015-04-20T21:56:57Z Zom`: I'm trying to see if you can do it by (defmethod make-instance) but I can't figure out the specializer
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2015-04-20T21:58:16Z nyef: Zom`: My first stop for trying to figure that out would be a copy of AMOP.
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2015-04-20T22:04:13Z Zom`: It's (class (eql 'Foo)), so you can do (defmethod make-instance ((cls (eql 'Foo)) &rest) (make-instance 'Bar)). It's a pretty awful hack imo, but quite entertaining
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2015-04-20T22:08:48Z pjb: make-instance is the OO API, make-foo is the functional API.
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2015-04-20T22:10:32Z Zom`: pjb: thanks, that's a really helpful way of looking at it when it comes to separating code. I'll remember that
2015-04-20T22:12:15Z pjb: Zom`: another consideration is that it would be better to avoid complex interdependencies in initialize-instance (when make-instance),  consider it like a C++ constructor.  On the other hand, if you wrap make-instance in a make-foo then you can add more complex dependency establishement (eg. store the object in some database/list, add relationships with other objects, etc).
2015-04-20T22:13:23Z pjb: eg. (defun make-car (color) (make-instance 'car :color color :wheels (list (make-instance 'wheel) (make-instance 'wheel) (make-instance 'wheel)))) would be better than creating the wheel instances in initialize-instance of car.
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2015-04-20T22:15:58Z Zom`: Good example, thanks
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2015-04-20T23:01:52Z pillton: Bicyclidine: Marc Battyani gave a lightning talk at one of the Boston Lisp meetings.
2015-04-20T23:01:59Z pillton: Bicyclidine: http://fare.livejournal.com/156739.html
2015-04-20T23:02:53Z pillton: I would have liked to have gone.
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2015-04-20T23:11:21Z Xach yawns
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2015-04-20T23:12:05Z pillton: At what?
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2015-04-20T23:13:18Z nyef: pillton, Bicyclidine: That wasn't a lightning talk, that was the main presentation. It was awesome.
2015-04-20T23:14:28Z pillton: nyef: My apologies.
2015-04-20T23:14:54Z nyef: They were using Lisp to generate VHDL that then ran through the "normal" FPGA toolchain.
2015-04-20T23:16:34Z nyef: Compile times were horrendous because of the FPGA toolchain, but they were doing stuff like analyzing stock market data coming in over a gigabit pipe with their output packets coming with a latency of something like 35 cycles after starting to receive an incoming packet.
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2015-04-20T23:20:34Z Bicyclidine: i might have to watch that, then.
2015-04-20T23:21:22Z Xach: pillton: it has been a very full day here at ELS
2015-04-20T23:22:09Z pillton: Xach: Right. That is one thing I don't like about conferences. There is no time to digest the information.
2015-04-20T23:24:20Z antoszka: nyef: and the last lisper is just leaving the original company
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2015-04-20T23:26:05Z Xach is just digesting the dinner
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2015-04-20T23:29:17Z suguriu: ahh it's a wonderful day
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