2015-04-19T00:00:00Z linux_dream: hey guys if I want to generate an n+2 x n+2 matrix full of 0's,  is the following ok? (make-array '(n+2 n+2) :initial-element 0)
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2015-04-19T00:03:32Z Bike: if n+2 is constant, yes
2015-04-19T00:03:41Z Bike: if n is a variable, have (list (+ n 2) (+ n 2)) instead
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2015-04-19T00:04:20Z linux_dream: ok thanks.  it's a constant yes
2015-04-19T00:04:55Z Bike: something like '(19 19) will work then.
2015-04-19T00:09:00Z linux_dream: n is 19 so that's '(21 21) but yeah ok
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2015-04-19T00:13:12Z linux_dream: I don't know if I should learn the basics or learn in the process of translating my simple python program
2015-04-19T00:13:26Z linux_dream: I'm facing every single kind of troubles so far
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2015-04-19T00:14:22Z Bike: reading pcl would probably be a good plan.
2015-04-19T00:15:03Z linux_dream: ok
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2015-04-19T00:27:31Z linux_dream: how would you define "board", the n+2 n+2 matrix  ?  I mean what type/kind of thing would you call it?  (defstructure board  ?    or (def...
2015-04-19T00:27:45Z linux_dream: or (let (board....
2015-04-19T00:30:25Z Bike: if you're keeping it around for a while, i might do (defvar *board* (make-array ...))
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2015-04-19T00:31:06Z linux_dream: ok thanks.  I would have never thought about defining a matrix as "var" :)
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2015-04-19T00:31:44Z Bike: What else would it be?
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2015-04-19T00:31:53Z linux_dream: well I Don't know
2015-04-19T00:32:02Z linux_dream: a stucture
2015-04-19T00:32:23Z Bike: structures and matrices are types of objects, not storage locations like variables are.
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2015-04-19T00:34:36Z linux_dream: hmm then why would I use (defvar *board* (make-array...  ?   if make-array produces a matrix
2015-04-19T00:35:06Z linux_dream: also I'm getting an error with: (defvar *board* (make-array '((+ n 2) (+ n 2)) :initial-element 0))     , I get an error that n+2 is not a number basically
2015-04-19T00:35:15Z linux_dream: even though I defined n as 19 earlier
2015-04-19T00:35:57Z linux_dream: I just replaced n by 19 and I get the same error
2015-04-19T00:36:26Z linux_dream: ; Evaluation aborted on #<TYPE-ERROR expected-type: NUMBER datum: (+ 19 2)>.
2015-04-19T00:37:02Z Bike: okay, when i said "constant", what i meant was actual numbers.
2015-04-19T00:37:10Z Bike: you know what quote does, right? avoids evaluation?
2015-04-19T00:37:17Z linux_dream: true
2015-04-19T00:37:19Z Bike: so it's not going to evaluate (+ n 2).
2015-04-19T00:37:25Z Bike: what you want is (list (+ n 2) (+ n 2)), probably.
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2015-04-19T00:41:38Z linux_dream: hmm I'm confused a lot.
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2015-04-19T00:42:27Z Bike: By what?
2015-04-19T00:43:14Z linux_dream: I deleted my code
2015-04-19T00:43:48Z linux_dream: I want "(list (+ n 2) (+ n 2))  instead of (make-array '((+ n 2) (+ n 2)) :initial-element 0)   ?
2015-04-19T00:44:04Z linux_dream: if so, then I was getting other errors
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2015-04-19T00:47:25Z Bike: No, you want (make-array (list (+ n 2) (+ n 2)) :initial-element 0).
2015-04-19T00:47:28Z Bike: Just replacing the quote.
2015-04-19T00:47:41Z Bike: (list foo bar) just makes a list of foo and bar. Not an array, of course.
2015-04-19T00:48:49Z linux_dream: thanks that worked :)
2015-04-19T00:49:23Z linux_dream: now wait... board is an array of lists ?
2015-04-19T00:49:40Z linux_dream: or it's just a "var"
2015-04-19T00:50:09Z Bike: Board is an array.
2015-04-19T00:50:16Z Bike: The first argument to make-array is just a size.
2015-04-19T00:50:21Z linux_dream: ok
2015-04-19T00:50:41Z linux_dream: ok that's clear to me now
2015-04-19T00:50:52Z Bike: (make-array (list 21 21) :initial-element 0) => a 21x21 matrix containing '0' for all indices.
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2015-04-19T00:53:49Z linux_dream: ok.  and to replace an element 0 to 1 ,  I'd do something like:  (setf (elt *board* random_number) 1)   ?  where random_number is an int between 1 and 19
2015-04-19T00:54:15Z linux_dream: I mean to replace an entry "0" in the matrix by "1"
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2015-04-19T00:54:30Z Bike: You would use aref, and use two indices.
2015-04-19T00:54:36Z Bike: (setf (aref *board* 1 7) 1)
2015-04-19T00:54:43Z linux_dream: oh I see
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2015-04-19T00:55:25Z Bike: Also, if you have a 19x19 matrix, the valid indices would be 0-18, not 1-19.
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2015-04-19T00:55:50Z linux_dream:  I don't want to touch to the first and last rows /columns
2015-04-19T00:56:39Z linux_dream: so the matrix in hte program is 21x21 but I'll be modifying values on a 19x19 matrix
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2015-04-19T00:57:02Z Bike: 1-20, then.
2015-04-19T00:57:14Z Bike: er, no, 1-19. you're right, sorry.
2015-04-19T00:57:23Z linux_dream: ok
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2015-04-19T01:00:53Z linux_dream: hmm why does the code   (setf x (random 10))     returns warnings that x is not defined?  doesn't that define x?
2015-04-19T01:01:09Z Bike: No. Setf just assigns.
2015-04-19T01:01:28Z linux_dream: ah ok
2015-04-19T01:01:34Z Bike: You want to have the variable in scope first, as by let.
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2015-04-19T02:41:51Z emaczen: jackdaniel: you there?
2015-04-19T02:41:51Z minion: emaczen, memo from jackdaniel: that's weird - I have subscribed from other mail address, an everything gone flawlsessly within 5 minutes. Maybe try to subscribe again and doublecheck your mail address?
2015-04-19T02:41:51Z minion: emaczen, memo from jackdaniel: if it doesn't work, I'll contact list owner and ask about transferring ownership and/or will contact sourceforge staff, in the meantime please send email to me (jackdaniel at hellsgate dot pl), and I'll forward it to mailing list. Sorry for late response, I have limited access to my computer right now.
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2015-04-19T04:20:59Z linux_dream: hey guys I'm kind of turning crazy.  I want to define a variable x equal to a random number between 1 and n.   I have this part already : (+ 1 (random (- n 1))       and I've been told to use (let    but I don't see how to make it work
2015-04-19T04:21:27Z Bike: (let ((x (1+ (random (- n 1))))) (do-stuff-with x))
2015-04-19T04:21:48Z linux_dream: ok thanks a lot
2015-04-19T04:22:05Z linux_dream: hmm then I may get a problem. the "do stuff with x" part could be gigantic in my case
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2015-04-19T04:24:25Z linux_dream: yeah I'd be better off defining a function that returns a random number I think
2015-04-19T04:24:34Z linux_dream: because I'll have to call it several times later
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2015-04-19T04:30:27Z linux_dream: hmm I get an error. I get "unbound variable random_coordinate) with the following code: (defun random_coordinate (n) (+ 1 (random (- n 1))))
2015-04-19T04:30:35Z linux_dream: where I previously defined n as 19
2015-04-19T04:30:44Z linux_dream: with: (defparameter n 19)
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2015-04-19T04:32:20Z ynix: Is there a standard way to compile a lisp source file in to a binary? So far I've only figured out how to compile it to a .fasl file, and then manually load that up in to Lisp again.
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2015-04-19T04:37:20Z linux_dream: actually I get an illegal function call
2015-04-19T04:38:10Z linux_dream: nevermind it works now
2015-04-19T04:40:17Z Bike: ynix: by "binary" you mean something that can be executed by your operating system, right?
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2015-04-19T04:53:47Z linux_dream: can the argument of a function by another function evaluated ?  I guess that yes
2015-04-19T04:54:29Z linux_dream: for instance (defun boolean_function (random_function (n))    some stuff )
2015-04-19T04:54:52Z linux_dream: or should it be  (defun boolean_function (random_function n)    some stuff )
2015-04-19T04:54:57Z linux_dream: ?
2015-04-19T04:55:46Z matthavard: `(defun boolean_function (random_function n))` defines a function with `random_function` and `n` as parameters - (random_function n) is not called
2015-04-19T04:56:07Z matthavard: And defun is a macro, so nothing after defun can be evaluated
2015-04-19T04:56:28Z linux_dream: oh...
2015-04-19T04:56:34Z matthavard: linux_dream: What are you actually trying to achieve?
2015-04-19T04:57:00Z linux_dream: translating a python code into CL
2015-04-19T04:57:05Z matthavard: ah..
2015-04-19T04:57:21Z linux_dream: trying to create a function that tells me whether there are adjascent stones on a go board
2015-04-19T04:57:51Z linux_dream: from a randomly picked intersection  (or square if you think about a chessboard)
2015-04-19T04:57:58Z matthavard: But in python, you can't do `def boolean_function(random_function(n)):` can you?
2015-04-19T04:58:18Z linux_dream: I don't know honestly.. lol I'm so confused.
2015-04-19T04:58:29Z matthavard: What is the Python line?
2015-04-19T04:58:38Z linux_dream: https://github.com/arbolis/pythonstuff/blob/master/goproblem_random/gorandom_1.py
2015-04-19T04:58:58Z linux_dream: line 25  is the boolean function
2015-04-19T04:59:15Z matthavard: oh okay.  That's easy to translate
2015-04-19T04:59:24Z linux_dream: glad to hear this
2015-04-19T04:59:30Z linux_dream: this is my first CL program
2015-04-19T04:59:42Z matthavard: Is this homework?  I don't care, just wondering
2015-04-19T04:59:49Z linux_dream: anyway in lisp I've created a function that generates a random number betwee 1 and 19
2015-04-19T04:59:52Z linux_dream: no
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2015-04-19T05:00:57Z linux_dream: I just want to have some basic skills in both python and CL.  I had a hard time to find a project to work on in python but I found it and it was successful.  now I want to do the same in lisp
2015-04-19T05:01:49Z linux_dream: I'm taking a slightly different path in lisp.  in python I generated x_coordinate and y_coordinate as random numbers.  in lisp I've defined a function that generates a random number
2015-04-19T05:01:59Z linux_dream: I thought I'd call it every time I needed a random number
2015-04-19T05:02:09Z linux_dream: and I need it as argument to a boolean function
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2015-04-19T05:05:29Z matthavard: Here is the function's 1-1 translation to lisp with some helpers so I could write less: https://gist.github.com/mhavard999/07c52305848865d66f6d
2015-04-19T05:05:32Z linux_dream: so how could I do this? Define x_coordinate too ?
2015-04-19T05:06:01Z matthavard: (check-if-stones (randfunc n) (randfunc n))
2015-04-19T05:06:30Z matthavard: In your original question you were using defun, so I thought you were asking about when the function is defined
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2015-04-19T05:06:54Z matthavard: You can call functions after they are defined with arguments that are the results of other function calls
2015-04-19T05:07:39Z linux_dream: ok thanks a lot
2015-04-19T05:07:52Z linux_dream: so I think I'll use (check-if-stones (randfunc n) (randfunc n))
2015-04-19T05:08:08Z matthavard: sounds like that should probably work
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2015-04-19T05:08:57Z linux_dream: what is your mth function?
2015-04-19T05:09:02Z linux_dream: I'm not understanding well
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2015-04-19T05:13:21Z linux_dream: hmm my idea is not well compatible with your code
2015-04-19T05:13:31Z linux_dream: where you have x and y and I have (random n)
2015-04-19T05:13:46Z linux_dream: my probleme is that every time I invoke (random n), I'll get a different number
2015-04-19T05:14:09Z linux_dream: so I'd have to set x to a particular (random n) and then work on x
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2015-04-19T05:19:21Z drmeister: Are displaced arrays always one-dimensional?
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2015-04-19T05:24:21Z BRFPocock: The way I read CLHS, no, but: "The mapping treats both arrays as if they were one-dimensional by taking the elements in row-major order, and then maps an access to element k of array B to an access to element k+n of array A."
2015-04-19T05:25:10Z drmeister: Yes, I see that now. Thank you.
2015-04-19T05:25:30Z BRFPocock: np :-)
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2015-04-19T05:38:40Z emaczen: What is the status of making IOS apps with a free common lisp implementation? I only really see information from 2011 from google.
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2015-04-19T05:39:16Z emaczen: It looks like ECL and CCL are the candidates, but can someone point me to an app I could download from the app store, a tutorial, some code?
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2015-04-19T05:48:23Z H4ns: emaczen: https://wukix.com/mocl is the only viable option
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2015-04-19T05:55:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-04-19T05:55:49Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: it is clear from the allowed multiple macro-expansions, that mutating the macro parameters won't be conforming.  Therefore there is no point is specifying it more.
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2015-04-19T05:59:03Z beach: pjb: Clear to you perhaps.  Maybe not to everyone.
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2015-04-19T06:20:20Z ynix: Bike: Yes.
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2015-04-19T06:35:51Z |3b| would think multiple macro expansion just means the macro would need to give the same results even after the mutation, while the real problem is that the arguments are usually literals (and implementations might depend on the source not changing for things like source tracking)
2015-04-19T06:36:11Z |3b| missed the original context though
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2015-04-19T06:43:52Z drmeister: Hey beach - are you going to the dinner tomorrow night?
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2015-04-19T06:44:55Z drmeister: I better get to bed - good night.
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2015-04-19T08:15:01Z beach: drmeister: I am not going to the dinner.  There are way too many people already.
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2015-04-19T08:19:12Z beach: |3b|: The context was my idea to try to figure out what a macro does with its arguments by giving it fake argument objects and trying to find those objects in the output.
2015-04-19T08:20:41Z Shinmera: One thing I'd like to see for source locations is if you have, say, a macro that encloses multiple definitions and still have the inner definitions refer properly. Though that might very well be impossible / a lot to ask for in many situations.
2015-04-19T08:20:53Z Shinmera shakes his fist at ASDF in particular
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2015-04-19T08:22:57Z beach: Shinmera: I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.  What does it mean for a macro to "enclose" something, and what does it mean for a definition to "refer"?
2015-04-19T08:23:48Z beach: And what is an "inner" definition?
2015-04-19T08:24:14Z Shinmera: If you have, say, (some-macro (defun a () ..) (defun b () ..)) that the source-locations still work. So, if you M-. on (b ..) it'll take you to the location of (defun b () ..) rather than the (some-macro ..) form.
2015-04-19T08:24:41Z beach: That is not terribly hard.
2015-04-19T08:24:57Z Shinmera: Depends on what the some-macro does.
2015-04-19T08:25:43Z Shinmera: Either way, my reason for wanting this is mostly because ASDF's WITH-UPGRADABILITY forms are a real pain when trying to M-. anything ASDF.
2015-04-19T08:25:45Z beach: Just remember the association between the form (defun b ...) and its source location.  In the expanded macro, locate the (defun b ...) form.
2015-04-19T08:26:51Z beach: The problem comes when the macro takes apart its arguments.  Then you have to locate sub-forms of the arguments.
2015-04-19T08:27:08Z beach: But that is also not too hard.
2015-04-19T08:27:36Z Shinmera: Well, if you say so, then I'm looking forward to that feature in future Cleavir/SICL-powered implementations :)
2015-04-19T08:27:59Z beach: The hard part is to figure out the origin of objects such as symbols, numbers and characters.
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2015-04-19T08:28:13Z beach: ... because they can't be found using EQ.
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2015-04-19T08:31:08Z beach: Shinmera: What makes you think it is hard to traverse the form that results from a macro expansion in order to find compound forms in it that are EQ to the argument forms the macro function was given?
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2015-04-19T08:33:04Z Shinmera: What makes me think that is that it's hard for me to keep the entire situation in my head correctly and enumerate all the ways in which a macro might interfere with that.
2015-04-19T08:34:41Z Shinmera: But then, I woke up about an hour ago, so I might just not be up to speed yet.
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2015-04-19T08:36:12Z beach: When you are a bit more awake and you have had time to think about it, I would like to know the result of your thinking if you don't mind.
2015-04-19T08:36:26Z Shinmera: Sure.
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2015-04-19T09:20:11Z Shinmera: beach: Ok, I've thought it over a bit more. I see that it's not difficult to implement, but if I understand correctly it is also potentially very costly to do it, as you would have to compare every sub-form of an expansion against every sub-form of the form you pass into the macro.
2015-04-19T09:21:04Z Shinmera: Doing this for lots of macroexpansions and potentially very deep resulting trees could end up taking a lot of time.
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2015-04-19T09:22:15Z beach: The cost will be low compared to subsequent optimization phases of the compiler.
2015-04-19T09:23:05Z Shinmera: I don't know even close enough to be able to estimate that. Comparing two trees with each other on every node on every expansion seems scary to me.
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2015-04-19T09:23:33Z beach: Traverse the top-level form to be compiled and build a hash table of forms.
2015-04-19T09:24:07Z Shinmera: Hrm.
2015-04-19T09:24:32Z beach: Traverse the expanded form and stop when you find a sub-form that is also in the original form.
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2015-04-19T09:25:01Z beach: Maybe you need more time to wake up? :)
2015-04-19T09:26:57Z beach: I am going to do it a bit differently in Cleavir so that a sophisticated implementation can have source tracking for non-compound expressions as well.
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2015-04-19T09:27:20Z Shinmera: Right, I didn't think of the hash-tables. I was assuming that the source location info was coupled with the conses.
2015-04-19T09:28:13Z beach: It is, but it is still possible to stick those conses in a hash table.
2015-04-19T09:28:23Z Shinmera: Sure.
2015-04-19T09:28:57Z beach: s/It is,/In most implementations it probably is,/
2015-04-19T09:29:00Z Shinmera usually understands things best by trying to implement them and isn't great at trying to play out potential scenarios in his head.
2015-04-19T09:29:18Z beach: I understand that very well.
2015-04-19T09:29:28Z Shinmera: Might actually be a fun idea to try and implement such a system myself.
2015-04-19T09:29:59Z beach: Good idea.  If you make it public domain, I'll incorporate it into Cleavir.
2015-04-19T09:30:12Z Shinmera: I'll put it onto my "Eventually" todo.
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2015-04-19T09:30:41Z beach: You know that "eventually" in English doesn't mean what it means in all other languages, right?
2015-04-19T09:31:02Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-04-19T09:31:11Z beach: Good. :)
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2015-04-19T09:31:59Z beach: How many items are on that todo list already?
2015-04-19T09:32:05Z Shinmera: https://trello.com/b/CTRjDxkF/personal
2015-04-19T09:32:07Z Shinmera: lots.
2015-04-19T09:32:15Z beach: Oh well.
2015-04-19T09:32:23Z Shinmera: I don't do them in any particular order though.
2015-04-19T09:32:31Z beach: I see.
2015-04-19T09:32:57Z Shinmera: I mostly use my todo as "things I should focus on now" and "things I want to do at some point and wrote down so I won't forget".
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2015-04-19T09:42:09Z White_Flame: I use a mind mapper for that.  It lets you go as detailed as you want, capturing notes under each section
2015-04-19T09:42:09Z minion: White_Flame, memo from pjb: load an empty file, empty the whole lisp image.  Well done.
2015-04-19T09:42:47Z White_Flame: pjb: sure, if you empty out & reload all the source code to your image :)
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2015-04-19T10:08:48Z adlai: nice little lesson here: three seconds of reading PCL source, after deciding that I was going to subclass standard-generic-function in a nonportable manner, showed me how to circumvent the error - in a portable manner.
2015-04-19T10:09:49Z adlai: so the lesson is: read the source, paying careful attention to comments; and the corollary is to comment my own code more :)
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2015-04-19T10:11:35Z adlai is still annoyed that the standard doesn't explicitly trust custom method combinations to distinguish between methods within a single group differing only in qualifiers
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2015-04-19T12:19:11Z dim: ah, bug report from a windows user, where he's using pgloader.exe... if feels good to be able to reach those folks with a minimal effort, thanks CL ;-)
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2015-04-19T12:36:24Z XachFu: Ahhh.
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2015-04-19T13:03:05Z matthavard: How can I define a named function without defun?
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2015-04-19T13:03:46Z axion: flet
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2015-04-19T13:04:09Z matthavard: Thank you!
2015-04-19T13:05:25Z matthavard: Oh wait, I want to define them in the global scope
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2015-04-19T13:06:16Z matthavard: Okay, I want to be able to bind a name to an anonymous function and then use that name as a function name
2015-04-19T13:06:53Z axion: sounds exactly like defun
2015-04-19T13:07:03Z Shinmera: (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (lambda ...))
2015-04-19T13:07:18Z ggole: Why do you want that?
2015-04-19T13:07:25Z axion is not sure if this is a challenge or what the big deal is
2015-04-19T13:07:41Z ggole: You want a variable containing the function value and the same name to be a function binding?
2015-04-19T13:08:30Z matthavard: No, I don't want it to be a variable name at all
2015-04-19T13:08:36Z matthavard: I do basically want defun
2015-04-19T13:08:54Z ggole: O_o
2015-04-19T13:09:01Z matthavard: it's hard to explain
2015-04-19T13:09:12Z matthavard: I'll be back shortly with a better explanation
2015-04-19T13:09:32Z axion: ..
2015-04-19T13:09:58Z ggole: A conceptual exercise, maybe?
2015-04-19T13:10:18Z axion: that's what i was thinking, but that's easy to explain
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2015-04-19T13:12:43Z matthavard: Sorry.  I am trying to translate this Scheme code (https://pastebin.mozilla.org/8830627) And I don't know scheme, so I assumed that this is binding fact as a function (even though Scheme is a Lisp-1 I think?  So specifying as a funciton is unnecessary?) to the result of calling the top lambda with the bottom lambda as an argument
2015-04-19T13:13:26Z matthavard: It is conceptual, it's from this page about the Y-combinator (http://www.ece.uc.edu/~franco/C511/html/Scheme/ycomb.html)
2015-04-19T13:14:22Z ggole: Ah, so you want to define a function in terms of the result of a function call
2015-04-19T13:14:27Z matthavard: Yes
2015-04-19T13:15:34Z ggole: (setf (fdefinition ...) ...) is probably it then
2015-04-19T13:16:51Z matthavard: I did `(setf (fdefintion 'bloo) (lambda (x) (+ 1 x)))` and I got `undefined function (setf fdefinition)`
2015-04-19T13:17:50Z ggole: Fix the spelling error and try again.
2015-04-19T13:17:59Z matthavard: ah shit
2015-04-19T13:18:07Z matthavard: fdefinition me
2015-04-19T13:18:27Z matthavard: ok yeah that works
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2015-04-19T13:23:39Z ggole: In scheme there's no "as a function", there's just the single namespace
2015-04-19T13:24:00Z ggole: define binds values, whether they are functions or otherwise
2015-04-19T13:24:30Z matthavard: ggole: Dude I got that!!  I said it was a lisp-1 up there^ haha
2015-04-19T13:24:40Z matthavard: I'm excited to know something about lisp
2015-04-19T13:25:25Z matthavard: Does scheme have a defun-like macro at all?
2015-04-19T13:25:42Z matthavard: I mean clojure is a lisp-1 and it still has defn
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2015-04-19T13:27:14Z ggole: scheme has define
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2015-04-19T13:29:50Z matthavard: Right, well I'm saying clojure has def, which binds a name to any value, function or otherwise like scheme's define, and then it has defn, which just expands to `(def foo (fn ...))` where `fn` is clojure's analogue to `lambda`
2015-04-19T13:30:11Z ggole: define is a lot like that
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2015-04-19T13:30:27Z ggole: You could ask in #scheme. We're getting a bit off topic.
2015-04-19T13:30:33Z matthavard: alright
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2015-04-19T13:36:04Z solomon243: hi to all !!1
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2015-04-19T13:42:53Z k-stz: what's the difference between symbol-function and fdefinition
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2015-04-19T14:16:11Z ggole: ,clhs fdefinition
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2015-04-19T14:16:23Z ggole: Uh, #emacs tic there
2015-04-19T14:16:28Z ggole: clhs fdefinition
2015-04-19T14:16:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm
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2015-04-19T14:16:49Z pjb: k-stz: they don't have the same domain.
2015-04-19T14:17:50Z ggole: "A symbol or a list (setf symbol) that is the name of a function in that environment."
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2015-04-19T14:18:04Z pjb: k-stz: Also, they don't have the same target.
2015-04-19T14:18:14Z pjb: k-stz: conclusion they are entirely different.
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2015-04-19T14:21:16Z pjb: White_Flame: you have to specify how and why loading an empty file doesn't delete everything.
2015-04-19T14:21:33Z pjb: But "just the functions that are not defined in that empty source file"!
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2015-04-19T14:49:39Z pjb: matthavard: if your scheme code doesn't use call/cc (and it's basically r4rs), then you can use pseudoscheme to compile and run it on CL.
2015-04-19T14:50:39Z linux_dream: hey there.  matthavard , I couldn't understand your mth function and the nth stuff too
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2015-04-19T14:55:11Z k-stz: finally found a deviation in domains: (fdefinition '(setf car)) (symbol-function '(setf car))
2015-04-19T14:55:23Z k-stz is now looking for deviation in target set
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2015-04-19T14:56:22Z pjb: k-stz: hint: different words are used, and no mention that (eql (fdefinition 'cond) (symbol-function 'cond)) must stand.
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2015-04-19T15:00:23Z k-stz: so I may encounter different behaviour depending on the implementation used
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2015-04-19T15:20:54Z pjb: k-stz: yes, that's what non-conforming means.
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2015-04-19T15:21:49Z matthavard: linux_dream: `(nth l 1)` is how you get element 1 (the second element) of a list l.  My mth function (nth (nth b i) j) is basically b[i][j] in python
2015-04-19T15:22:19Z pjb: mathrick_: nope.
2015-04-19T15:22:39Z pjb: clhs nth
2015-04-19T15:22:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm
2015-04-19T15:22:53Z matthavard: oops reverse that
2015-04-19T15:22:56Z mathrick_: pjb: close, but not quite the right nick
2015-04-19T15:23:03Z pjb: Oops, sorry.
2015-04-19T15:23:49Z mathrick_: no problem, I was supposed to smile at the end of that line
2015-04-19T15:23:49Z matthavard: linux_dream: so make that `(nth 1 l)` and `(nth j (nth i b))`
2015-04-19T15:24:57Z mathrick_: I'd actually suggest using ELT instead of NTH
2015-04-19T15:25:17Z matthavard: clhs elt
2015-04-19T15:25:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_elt.htm
2015-04-19T15:25:18Z mathrick_: and incidentally, ELT's argument order matches what you gave at first (and is the opposite of NTH's)
2015-04-19T15:25:31Z mathrick_: ELT operates on sequences, whilst NTH is list-only
2015-04-19T15:25:36Z pjb: and a multidimensional array instead of vector of vector. it's not because other programming languages are dumb that you have to do the same in CL.
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2015-04-19T15:27:29Z matthavard: What is the difference between a vector and an array?
2015-04-19T15:27:43Z mathrick_: vector is a one-dimensional array
2015-04-19T15:27:53Z matthavard: oh okay.  Just like in math ha
2015-04-19T15:27:56Z mathrick_: clhs vector
2015-04-19T15:27:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_vector.htm
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2015-04-19T15:31:02Z pjb: So: (let ((b (make-array '(3 3) :initial-element 0))) (setf (aref b 0 0) 1 (aref b 2 2) 3) b) --> #2A((1 0 0) (0 0 0) (0 0 3))
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2015-04-19T15:32:16Z matthavard: So it seems like aref is the best way to go
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2015-04-19T15:46:25Z linux_dream: guys, say I have a function random_coordinate (n) that returns a number between 1 and n.    Would the following assign or set equal x_coordinate to a random number between 1 and n?  : (let (x_coordinate (random_coordinate n)))
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2015-04-19T15:48:34Z linux_dream: i guess not , it returns a warning o_o
2015-04-19T15:48:50Z Wojciech_K: too few parenthesis
2015-04-19T15:49:16Z Wojciech_K: (let ((x (random_c n))))
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2015-04-19T15:50:08Z linux_dream: thanks
2015-04-19T15:50:15Z Wojciech_K: let works like this:
2015-04-19T15:50:26Z Wojciech_K: (let ( FORM1 FORM2 ...))
2015-04-19T15:50:30Z Wojciech_K: you have only 1 form
2015-04-19T15:50:38Z linux_dream: the thing that I forgot is that I must use x_coordinate   inside the (let .... )  thing
2015-04-19T15:50:42Z Wojciech_K: that's why there are strange double paranthesis
2015-04-19T15:50:51Z linux_dream: I see
2015-04-19T15:51:07Z linux_dream: I'll abandon the idea to use (let
2015-04-19T15:51:30Z Wojciech_K: why, let is good
2015-04-19T15:51:35Z linux_dream: I want to assign x_coordinate to a random number between 1 and 19.  I have a function that can give me such a number
2015-04-19T15:51:48Z linux_dream: well because I want to do a lot of things with x_coordinate
2015-04-19T15:52:04Z linux_dream: if I put all inside the (let   ....  ) part, my code will look strange
2015-04-19T15:52:17Z Wojciech_K: defvar/defparameter then
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2015-04-19T15:52:24Z linux_dream: yes thanks
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2015-04-19T15:59:05Z linux_dream: I'm creating a matrix (21x21) .  I modify it until some condition is met and then I want to reset it and redo similar calculations on it, repeat the whole process about 100 thousands of time
2015-04-19T15:59:19Z linux_dream: how would I efficiently reset the matrix to having 0's elements?
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2015-04-19T15:59:42Z linux_dream: by creating a function that reset the matrix or redefining the matrix at each iteration?
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2015-04-19T16:01:36Z linux_dream: hmm actually (defvar *board* (make-array (list (+ n 2) (+ n 2)) :initial-element 0))     cannot reset *board* to a matrix full of 0's...
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2015-04-19T16:02:42Z k-stz: (defconstant +matrix-of-21+ (make-array ... :inital-element 0))
2015-04-19T16:03:24Z linux_dream: I just tried defparameter instead, it worked
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2015-04-19T16:04:38Z k-stz: also note their is random function such that (1+ (random 19)) that returns random number 1-19
2015-04-19T16:04:49Z k-stz: yeah
2015-04-19T16:05:06Z linux_dream: yes
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2015-04-19T16:05:46Z k-stz: ah yes defvar can't reset it to a matrix of 0's because it won't change the value if the file is loaded (c-c c-l) that's the whole idea of DEFVAR, and the difference to DEFPARAMETER
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2015-04-19T16:08:33Z linux_dream: ok
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2015-04-19T18:21:22Z shka: good evening everyone
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2015-04-19T18:21:46Z shka: does anybody happen to know how to set color in the cgn?
2015-04-19T18:21:55Z pjb: What is the cgn?
2015-04-19T18:22:07Z shka: it is fairly simple gnuplot interface
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2015-04-19T18:24:35Z ehu: Xach: do you want explicit notification from me when projects move from CVS to Git(Lab)?
2015-04-19T18:24:57Z ehu: Xach: because I started the CVS->Git(Lab) migration and have 10 projects migrated now.
2015-04-19T18:25:24Z ehu: I'll do small batches every week for a few weeks and then I'll be done.
2015-04-19T18:25:56Z ehu: so this is likely to cross a Quicklisp release boundary.
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2015-04-19T18:56:16Z Guest48402: Hello all!  Does anyone here use unit tests?  Is there a package you can recommend?  I know I could roll my own in ten minutes, but I am curious as to the "state of the world" on this matter.
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2015-04-19T19:05:53Z fe[nl]ix: Guest48402: I can recommend FiveAM
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2015-04-19T20:04:32Z rombocua: has someone used burgler-batteries with lisp and python with numpi?
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2015-04-19T20:10:43Z freehck: hello people.
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2015-04-19T20:11:44Z cuaromboide: hello freehck, seems this is very quiet
2015-04-19T20:11:59Z freehck: I'd like to define two systems that use the same file framework, where I've defined generic methods for these packages. The difference between these packages is in the fact that they realize different classes for these methods. But the problem is in the fact i want these `defmethod's to be available in both systems.
2015-04-19T20:12:08Z freehck: To be more precise I should notice that slime seems to require the string "(in-package :packagename)" in the beginning of the file. But I cannot specify both packages this way.
2015-04-19T20:12:09Z freehck: 23:07 *** ynonp QUIT Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
2015-04-19T20:13:49Z freehck: Hm... Maybe can I define a generic methods in a framework and "export" them into both packages?
2015-04-19T20:16:47Z freehck: No, I mean, if I write 'defgeneric', what I get in the result? Do I get a symbol I can export to another package in order to define there a method for this defgeneric?
2015-04-19T20:17:44Z ehu: freehck: yes. you can.
2015-04-19T20:17:56Z ehu: freehck: and that's a pretty regular (normal) pattern too.
2015-04-19T20:19:14Z ehu: freehck: the other package doesn't even need to use the interface-defining package; the implementation providing package can simply do (defmethod the-interface-package:the-method (...) ...)
2015-04-19T20:19:36Z cuaromboide: I don't know much about defgeneric but it creates a <SB-MOP:FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-CLASS STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION>
2015-04-19T20:20:22Z ehu: cuaromboide: right. and stores it in a symbol's function slot
2015-04-19T20:20:49Z cuaromboide: so importing the symbol you get some information about the available arguments for the methods
2015-04-19T20:20:55Z ehu: defmethod can then be used to implement methods for the generic function using the symbol.
2015-04-19T20:21:09Z pjb: No, importing symbols gives you absolutely nothing of that sort.
2015-04-19T20:21:11Z ehu: there's no need to import the symbol.
2015-04-19T20:21:29Z ehu: if you don't, you simply need to prefix the package name.
2015-04-19T20:21:33Z ehu: that's all there is.
2015-04-19T20:21:46Z ehu: importing doesn't do more than that.
2015-04-19T20:21:48Z pjb: Importing a symbol only allows to intern this symbol by writing just its name when the current package is the package where you imported.
2015-04-19T20:21:53Z cuaromboide: then I imagine importing symbols create a slot in the symbol-table to access the information in the other packages without qualifing the namespace
2015-04-19T20:22:01Z pjb: Nope.
2015-04-19T20:22:11Z pjb: There's no symbol-table. There are packages.
2015-04-19T20:22:58Z cuaromboide: but a package must have a symbol-table for its internal symbols?
2015-04-19T20:23:08Z pjb: it's not specifide how packages shall be implemented.
2015-04-19T20:23:37Z cuaromboide: (do-internal-symbol package
2015-04-19T20:23:37Z pjb: For all we know, they could use a database stored on a google drive.
2015-04-19T20:23:56Z cuaromboide: symbol-table could be that also
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2015-04-19T20:24:41Z cuaromboide: we are getting far from the original question
2015-04-19T20:24:51Z freehck: ehu: Thank you for explanation. Well... If I define the class 'Cell1D' in package A, and 'Cell1D' in package B in two different ways, export generic 'DO-SOMETHING-WITH-CELL' from package X to A and B, and define this method for variable with class 'Cell1D', will the class definition from package A be used for this method in package A, and from package B - in package B?
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2015-04-19T20:25:45Z pjb: cuaromboide: the answer to the original question is that yes, if you want to define methods to the same generic function in different systems, it may be useful to define this generic function in a third "interface" system which the "implementation" systems will depend on.
2015-04-19T20:26:29Z ehu: freehck: not if you don't import the Cell1D symbol from A into B. By which I mean to say: as long as these symbols are internal, it's pure coincidence that they have the same symbol name. The class system won't know it.
2015-04-19T20:26:31Z cuaromboide: I imagine each class is related to a package?
2015-04-19T20:26:34Z pjb: On the other hand, one could consider that adding methods imposes a strong coupling, and that if you have to do that across systems, then you're doing something wrong.
2015-04-19T20:26:50Z pjb: cuaromboide: wrong.
2015-04-19T20:27:07Z cuaromboide: the symbol that denotes the class is in a package?
2015-04-19T20:27:17Z pjb: usually, but not necessarily.
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2015-04-19T20:27:24Z pjb: Why are you asking such strange questions?
2015-04-19T20:27:47Z ehu: cuaromboide: there exist symbols without packages.
2015-04-19T20:27:59Z cuaromboide: if you can define the same name for a class in two different packagfes there can be problems with this approach, I think
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2015-04-19T20:28:23Z cuaromboide: :ehu: do you mean #:
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2015-04-19T20:28:43Z ehu: that's their notation, yes.
2015-04-19T20:28:50Z cuaromboide: but usually symbols are interned in the current package, I suppose
2015-04-19T20:29:21Z freehck: ehu: I want to understand one thing: when I am in the package A and use (defclass Cell1D ...), I think I should create a class with the name A:Cell1D, right?
2015-04-19T20:29:28Z cuaromboide: there is the function symbol-package
2015-04-19T20:30:08Z freehck: ehu: and when I do the same thing in package B, I should get class with the name B:Cell1D
2015-04-19T20:30:13Z pjb: cuaromboide: you are refering to impossible or trivial things, thus not making much sense.
2015-04-19T20:30:15Z cuaromboide: A:Cell1D or A::Cell1D intern versus extern
2015-04-19T20:30:30Z ehu: freehck: yes, if the symbol Cell1D isn't exported by another package your current package is USE-ing.
2015-04-19T20:30:48Z pjb: cuaromboide: the name of a class is always the "same", unless you rename that class with (setf find-class) duh.
2015-04-19T20:31:05Z pjb: If the name of a class is accessible from two different package, then so what? duh.
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2015-04-19T20:31:28Z freehck: cuaromboide: there's a difference between : and :: in symbol name?
2015-04-19T20:31:36Z pjb: Nope.
2015-04-19T20:31:48Z ehu: the name of some very important classes are accessible from nearly every package. (STANDARD-CLASS / STANDARD-OBJECT any one?)
2015-04-19T20:31:53Z cuaromboide: : is for  exported symbols
2015-04-19T20:32:02Z ehu: freehck: yes, there is.
2015-04-19T20:32:04Z pjb: The qualifier used to qualify a symbol textual representation is unrelated to the name of the symbol.
2015-04-19T20:32:16Z pjb: ehu: wrong.
2015-04-19T20:32:29Z ehu: freehck: sorry, I'm not being exact.
2015-04-19T20:32:34Z cuaromboide: I imagine they belong to package CL
2015-04-19T20:32:43Z pjb: the symbols exported by the CL package are only available in package using the CL package, (or importing those symbols explicitely).
2015-04-19T20:32:45Z ehu: freehck: the symbol name usually doesn't have a colon.
2015-04-19T20:32:59Z ehu: freehck: the colons you normally see, are package separators.
2015-04-19T20:33:11Z pjb: '|symbol:names:can::have::any::::number::of:colons!|
2015-04-19T20:33:18Z cuaromboide: there is an option to see the qualified name I don't remember know the name
2015-04-19T20:33:55Z pjb: Just print with *package* bound to a package where those symbols are not present.
2015-04-19T20:34:17Z pjb: (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) (print 'hello)) --> common-lisp-user::hello hello
2015-04-19T20:36:13Z ehu: pjb: correct, but that's why I said "the colons you normally see are package separators" ; I didn't say a symbol can't have a colon in its name.
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2015-04-19T20:37:08Z cuaromboide: has to go, interesting topic, bye, thanks for the information
2015-04-19T20:37:14Z freehck: ehu, pjb: ok. So when I evaluate (defclass Name ...) being in class A, i get a symbol named A::Name?
2015-04-19T20:37:55Z cuaromboide: you are right
2015-04-19T20:37:57Z pjb: No.
2015-04-19T20:37:58Z freehck: Ah, no. I think I get what you're saing....
2015-04-19T20:38:06Z pjb: The symbol, with the standard read table, will be named "NAME".
2015-04-19T20:38:10Z freehck: I get as symbol NAME.
2015-04-19T20:38:17Z pjb: The class on the other hand, will be named A::NAME
2015-04-19T20:38:18Z freehck: In the namespace of package A.
2015-04-19T20:38:29Z pjb: this is meaningless.
2015-04-19T20:38:32Z cuaromboide: if you have READTABLE-UPCASE
2015-04-19T20:38:42Z pjb: Which is the standard readtable setting.
2015-04-19T20:38:58Z cuaromboide: but I also can be a llittle nickpicking
2015-04-19T20:39:07Z cuaromboide: like with ||
2015-04-19T20:39:13Z ehu: a lot of code will stop working if you don't use the standard read table setting.
2015-04-19T20:39:16Z freehck: pjb: how can I look for through the symbols defined in the specific package?
2015-04-19T20:39:29Z pjb: This is a meaningless notion.
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2015-04-19T20:39:42Z freehck: pjb: what if I'd like to see the whole table of symbols I've defined in this package?
2015-04-19T20:39:43Z cuaromboide: (do-all-symbols package)
2015-04-19T20:39:48Z freehck: thx
2015-04-19T20:40:06Z cuaromboide: (loop for x being each-symbol in package ... collect ) somehting like this
2015-04-19T20:40:11Z pjb: You have the notions of interned symbols, imported symbols, used packages.  Nothing about "defining a symbol in a package".
2015-04-19T20:40:37Z cuaromboide: (do-interal-symbols, do-external-symbols, do-all-symbos)
2015-04-19T20:40:58Z pjb: There's also such a thing as orthography.
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2015-04-19T20:41:26Z cuaromboide: I am typing very fast, as you can see,
2015-04-19T20:41:34Z pjb: Use completion.
2015-04-19T20:41:56Z cuaromboide: I am not in slime, I am using webchat.freenode with a browser
2015-04-19T20:42:07Z pjb: (apropos-list "-SYMBOLS" "CL") --> (do-all-symbols do-external-symbols do-symbols find-all-symbols package-shadowing-symbols)
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2015-04-19T20:42:18Z pjb: cuaromboide: use emacs and erc!
2015-04-19T20:42:36Z cuaromboide: what is erc?
2015-04-19T20:42:40Z cuaromboide: emacs irc?
2015-04-19T20:42:55Z pjb: Yes, one of emacs irc clients.
2015-04-19T20:43:22Z cuaromboide: If you don't use autocomplete you have to exercite your memory, a good exercise
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2015-04-19T20:46:33Z cuaromboide: thanks for the lesson, I part with /part
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2015-04-19T20:50:28Z splittist wonders whether he has lispers to the left and right @ the greenwich mercure
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2015-04-19T20:53:14Z freehck: pjb: is there any benefits of erc in comparison with the default rcirc?
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2015-04-19T20:58:28Z dim is using rcirc FWIW
2015-04-19T21:00:09Z Shinmera finally arrived at the hotel.
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2015-04-19T21:03:56Z splittist will forego the choggi-bribery for this evening
2015-04-19T21:04:35Z pjb: freehck: how is rcirc a default?
2015-04-19T21:04:42Z Shinmera: splittist: is 'choggi' supposed to mean '[s]choggi', as in the swiss german word for chocolate?
2015-04-19T21:05:00Z pjb: Do they bundle an irc client with emacs now?
2015-04-19T21:05:32Z splittist: Shinmera: yes. Sorry.
2015-04-19T21:06:09Z Shinmera: splittist: No worries. I was just confused.
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2015-04-19T21:06:29Z cluck: pjb: M-x irc defaults to rcirc, sadly
2015-04-19T21:06:41Z pjb: irc is an interactive Lisp function in `pjb-erc.el'. :-)
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2015-04-19T21:07:47Z cluck ← erc here
2015-04-19T21:08:59Z freehck: pjb: yes, they bundle rcirc in the emacs distribution now, and it's recommended.
2015-04-19T21:09:12Z cluck: pjb: ,source pjb-erc.el
2015-04-19T21:09:15Z cluck: ;)
2015-04-19T21:09:39Z pjb: Well, you know, don't change what's not broken.
2015-04-19T21:09:53Z cluck: freehck: he's being playful with you
2015-04-19T21:10:22Z pjb: My emacs stuff is in gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs
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2015-04-19T21:11:13Z cluck: pjb: you shouldn't confuse the newcomers like that, they don't know of our twisted and curmudgeony ways, they might take you seriously
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2015-04-19T21:14:30Z XachFu: Splittist: maybe!
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2015-04-19T21:40:32Z Xach: ehu: please
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2015-04-19T21:47:21Z ehu: Xach: will do. the first 10 have moved today. I'll send notification tomorrow.
2015-04-19T21:47:27Z ehu: (bedtime here now)
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2015-04-19T21:48:08Z Xach: same
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2015-04-19T21:50:03Z Xach: these crazy euro-time zones!
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2015-04-19T21:51:43Z Shinmera: How's the jetlag?
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2015-04-19T21:52:12Z Xach: I am fairly frazzled, but I think that is less from lag than from a lousy flight. I think things will be fine tomorrow.
2015-04-19T21:52:34Z Shinmera: I hope so!
2015-04-19T21:52:42Z Shinmera: Well, have a good night's rest then.
2015-04-19T21:52:52Z Xach: Thanks
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2015-04-19T22:44:46Z linux_dream: hi guys I'm confused in my code.  I've got a function defined that does something that involves another function of 3 variables
2015-04-19T22:44:46Z minion: linux_dream, memo from pjb: you can reset an array using fill and a displaced vector, or by writing a loop on the array total size.  As you can see, this means you have to learn CL, therefore go read a book!  cf. the Hyperspec, and http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial  http://cliki.net/Lisp+books
2015-04-19T22:45:19Z linux_dream: and I'm confused on which variables I must define the new function
2015-04-19T22:45:32Z pjb: linux_dream: on the variable 1 and 3.
2015-04-19T22:46:05Z linux_dream: yeah thanks pjb, I've been using google, and PCL
2015-04-19T22:46:07Z pjb: wait, no.
2015-04-19T22:46:10Z pjb: On the variable 2 and 3.
2015-04-19T22:46:35Z linux_dream: hmm what?
2015-04-19T22:47:13Z pjb: "<linux_dream> hi guys I'm confused in my code.  I've got a function defined that does something that involves another function of 3 variables, and I'm confused on which variables I must define the new function" --> define the new function on the variable 2 and 3.
2015-04-19T22:47:13Z pjb:  
2015-04-19T22:48:53Z linux_dream: ok thank you
2015-04-19T22:49:53Z linux_dream: that seems a bit strange to me.  could you confirm with the code? http://paste.lisp.org/display/147262   line 38.
2015-04-19T22:50:20Z linux_dream: that would be x_coordinate and y_coordinate but not *board*  ?
2015-04-19T22:50:23Z pjb: linux_dream: special variables should be named with stars, otherwise you will have problems.
2015-04-19T22:50:36Z pjb: Use - instead of _
2015-04-19T22:50:42Z linux_dream: ok
2015-04-19T22:50:46Z pjb: Use a 2D array instead of list of list.
2015-04-19T22:50:50Z linux_dream: what is a special variable?  note that *board* is special
2015-04-19T22:50:57Z linux_dream: hmm ouch
2015-04-19T22:51:20Z pjb: (if c nil t) == (not c)
2015-04-19T22:51:37Z pjb: and (not (= a b)) == (/= a b)
2015-04-19T22:51:43Z linux_dream: can I name x_coordinate  x-coordinate?
2015-04-19T22:51:54Z pjb: You should.
2015-04-19T22:51:58Z linux_dream: thanks
2015-04-19T22:52:12Z pjb: actually it should be *x-coordinate* since it's a special variable defined with defvar or defparameter.
2015-04-19T22:52:42Z pjb: There's no variable named already-a-stone.
2015-04-19T22:52:59Z pjb: And there are missing parentheses.
2015-04-19T22:53:35Z linux_dream: yeah it's far from finished
2015-04-19T22:53:43Z linux_dream: I' currently in it
2015-04-19T22:53:53Z pjb: No there should never be missing parentheses.
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2015-04-19T22:53:56Z pjb: Use paredit in emacs!
2015-04-19T22:53:59Z linux_dream: oh really
2015-04-19T22:54:04Z linux_dream: what's that
2015-04-19T22:54:05Z pjb: yes, really.
2015-04-19T22:54:08Z pjb: use google.
2015-04-19T22:54:16Z pjb: https://www.google.fr/search?q=paredit+emacs&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=FTI0VemAH5HsaMv9gMAE
2015-04-19T22:54:19Z linux_dream: I don't have google :) duckduckgo will do it
2015-04-19T22:54:39Z linux_dream: ok merci/thanks
2015-04-19T22:55:53Z linux_dream: ok I will install and set up paredit as soon as I'm done with this code
2015-04-19T22:56:04Z pjb: No, do it now!
2015-04-19T22:56:45Z linux_dream: but that'll take me a lot of time I think
2015-04-19T22:56:52Z pjb: No, it takes 30 seconds.
2015-04-19T22:56:55Z linux_dream: should I call n  *n* since it's a defparameter?
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2015-04-19T22:57:00Z pjb: Yes.
2015-04-19T22:57:03Z linux_dream: ok
2015-04-19T22:57:11Z linux_dream: well ok let me try paredit
2015-04-19T22:57:53Z linux_dream: so I just add:  (add-hook 'slime-repl-mode-hook (lambda () (paredit-mode +1)))    in my .emacs?
2015-04-19T22:57:59Z pjb: Yes.
2015-04-19T22:58:22Z pjb: But in the repl, it's not so good, since output can easily contain non-balanced parentheses.
2015-04-19T22:58:36Z pjb: Put it instead on lisp-mode-hook
2015-04-19T22:59:41Z linux_dream: paredit-mode is void, error
2015-04-19T23:00:16Z pjb: Load it manually when you just downloaded it.
2015-04-19T23:00:35Z linux_dream: that may be the problem, I haven't downloaded it
2015-04-19T23:00:45Z pjb: If you put it in a directory in your load-path, then M-: (require 'paredit) RET
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2015-04-19T23:01:36Z pjb: http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.el or http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit-beta.el
2015-04-19T23:02:11Z linux_dream: can i get paredit with melpa
2015-04-19T23:02:30Z pjb: perhaps, I don't know.
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2015-04-19T23:03:56Z linux_dream: my emacs has frozen, trying to load the packages
2015-04-19T23:04:04Z linux_dream: melpa stuff
2015-04-19T23:04:24Z pjb: Yeah. I'm still not very convinced by this.
2015-04-19T23:04:30Z pjb: wget works better.
2015-04-19T23:04:35Z linux_dream: ok unfrozen now
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2015-04-19T23:05:40Z linux_dream: ok i've installed it from there
2015-04-19T23:06:27Z pjb: Then you can add (require 'paredit) before (require 'slime) in your ~/.emacs, and to load it immediately, M-: (require 'paredit) RET
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2015-04-19T23:07:43Z linux_dream: apparently I don't have (require 'slime)
2015-04-19T23:07:58Z pjb: You don't use slime?
2015-04-19T23:08:06Z linux_dream: I do, but I load it manually
2015-04-19T23:08:16Z linux_dream: M-x slime
2015-04-19T23:08:27Z dim whispers about el-get
2015-04-19T23:08:47Z linux_dream: that would be nice if slime would start when i open or create a file.lisp
2015-04-19T23:08:48Z pjb: M-x doesn't load anything.
2015-04-19T23:08:51Z dim: or mutters even
2015-04-19T23:08:57Z pjb: It only calls commands that already have been loaded.
2015-04-19T23:09:04Z linux_dream: ah ok
2015-04-19T23:09:13Z linux_dream: well that's how I start slime
2015-04-19T23:09:24Z pjb: Search your ~/.emacs
2015-04-19T23:09:33Z linux_dream: I have it in front of me
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2015-04-19T23:11:41Z linux_dream: I've added (require 'paredit) and (require 'slime)  now it's  broken
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2015-04-19T23:12:23Z pjb: No, it is not: "it's  broken" is meaningless.
2015-04-19T23:12:29Z pjb: This is not an error message.
2015-04-19T23:12:37Z linux_dream: I restarted emacs and nothing would load
2015-04-19T23:12:43Z linux_dream: not even the theme
2015-04-19T23:12:53Z pjb: Use: emacs --debug-init
2015-04-19T23:12:53Z linux_dream: and the tutorial would load while I have it disabled
2015-04-19T23:13:18Z linux_dream: ok
2015-04-19T23:14:28Z linux_dream: http://pastebin.com/28cp02FS
2015-04-19T23:15:26Z pjb: (file-error "Cannot open load file" "no such file or directory"  "paredit") comes because you didn't put paredit.el in one of the directory of load-path (or conversely, put the directory where you stored paredit.el in the list load-path.
2015-04-19T23:15:43Z pjb: In *scratch*, type: load-path C-u C-x C-e
2015-04-19T23:15:48Z linux_dream: hmm i thought melpa would install it well...
2015-04-19T23:16:56Z linux_dream: no idea how to use *scratch*, that's where the error is displayed
2015-04-19T23:17:05Z linux_dream: can't type nor erase anything
2015-04-19T23:18:56Z pjb: linux_dream: 1- check that the mode of *scratch* is emacs-lisp-mode
2015-04-19T23:19:02Z pjb: 2- see above I told you how to use it!
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2015-04-19T23:19:47Z pjb: Errors aren't displayed in the *scratch* buffer. They're displayed in in the *Backtrace* buffer.
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2015-04-19T23:20:47Z linux_dream: ok thanks
2015-04-19T23:21:04Z linux_dream: http://pastebin.com/xP08x0Vy
2015-04-19T23:21:28Z pjb: set print-length to nil to avoid ...
2015-04-19T23:22:18Z pjb: Put (setf print-length nil eval-expression-print-length nil) in ~/.emacs and type C-x C-e after it to have it taken into account immediately.
2015-04-19T23:24:12Z linux_dream: http://pastebin.com/Ab32yRt4
2015-04-19T23:28:23Z pjb: So would you say that /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp looks like a good directory where to put paredit.el?
2015-04-19T23:28:45Z linux_dream: no idea honestly
2015-04-19T23:28:53Z pjb: Personally, I have a ~/emacs/ directory where I put stuff like that, and I have (require 'cl) (push "~/emacs/" load-path) at the beginning of my ~/.emacs
2015-04-19T23:28:58Z linux_dream: normally  I cannot edit that folder if I don't give permission (sudo)
2015-04-19T23:29:08Z pjb: Then do it as I do.
2015-04-19T23:29:14Z linux_dream: but anyway /usr/ is in my path I think
2015-04-19T23:29:45Z linux_dream: it should work I think but doesn't for some reason
2015-04-19T23:30:17Z pjb: M-x shell RET mkdir ~/emacs ; mv paredit.el ~/emacs/  RET
2015-04-19T23:30:30Z linux_dream: hmm no thanks... I don't feel like creating a special folder for that
2015-04-19T23:30:31Z pjb: Then put at the beginning of ~/.emacs :  (require 'cl) (push "~/emacs/" load-path)
2015-04-19T23:30:51Z pjb: This is not the only emacs lisp package you will have to use.
2015-04-19T23:31:00Z pjb: They are not all in melpa, far from it.
2015-04-19T23:31:39Z linux_dream: anyway it's supposed to work with melpa here and doesn't
2015-04-19T23:31:59Z pjb: How do you know if a package is available with melpa?
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2015-04-19T23:32:48Z linux_dream: I open melpa and use C-s or something like that
2015-04-19T23:32:54Z linux_dream: or I just scroll down
2015-04-19T23:33:01Z linux_dream: the packages are in alphabetical order
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2015-04-19T23:34:06Z pjb: How do you open melpa?
2015-04-19T23:34:21Z linux_dream: M-x package-list-packages
2015-04-19T23:34:52Z linux_dream: then I see a ton of packages from melpa and marmalade or something like that
2015-04-19T23:35:06Z linux_dream: but it looks like I installed melpa when I installed emacs, I don't remember how I did it
2015-04-19T23:35:18Z pjb: It's very slow or locked. I don't get anything.
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2015-04-19T23:35:27Z linux_dream: it's just slow, wait
2015-04-19T23:35:31Z linux_dream: I thought my emacs froze
2015-04-19T23:35:35Z pjb: Anyways, if you can install paredit with melpa go ahead, it doesn't matter how.
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2015-04-19T23:35:49Z linux_dream: usually it used to take a few seconds.  but today seems around 1 minute to load
2015-04-19T23:36:01Z linux_dream: well I already installed it from melpa
2015-04-19T23:36:34Z linux_dream: I have paredit installed.  but (require 'paredit)    (require 'slime)   made my emacs having problems
2015-04-19T23:36:43Z arquebus: there are optional packages in slime that are not turned on by default. I want to use slime-banner, which is in the contrib folder in slime. Anyone know how I turn it on? I see something here about a slime-setup function but I dont know where I should put that function http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15056562/loading-slime-editing-commands-in-emacs-in-lispbox
2015-04-19T23:37:18Z linux_dream: anyway it's over 40 minutes now since I tried to make paredit work.  I knew I would run into problems :D
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2015-04-19T23:37:54Z Bicyclidine: arquebus: i think you can just put (slime-setup '(slime-banner)) in your .emacs after slime is loaded.
2015-04-19T23:38:04Z pjb: arquebus: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-xref-browser slime-asdf slime-banner slime-repl slime-indentation slime-fuzzy slime-autodoc slime-presentations slime-presentation-streams))
2015-04-19T23:38:20Z pjb: You put that in ~/.emacs
2015-04-19T23:38:22Z pjb: for example.
2015-04-19T23:38:46Z arquebus: Bicyclidine: pjb: thanks, but that doesnt make sense, the .emacs file is run at startup before I start up slime
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2015-04-19T23:39:06Z pjb: arquebus: you can start up slime only if it is already loaded.
2015-04-19T23:39:08Z Bicyclidine: set up slime, not startup. there's stuff in your emacs to make slime available to start.
2015-04-19T23:39:19Z pjb: So obviously you will haev (require 'slime) before calling slime-setup.
2015-04-19T23:39:23Z pjb: This is just programming!
2015-04-19T23:39:40Z arquebus: Bicyclidine: pjb: ok, thanks for that info
2015-04-19T23:39:40Z pjb: Then later you can call or not (slime). (or by typing M-x slime).
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2015-04-19T23:44:10Z linux_dream: anyway I'm back at my code with paredit mode enabled.  I don't notice any difference so far
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2015-04-19T23:44:24Z linux_dream: I've opened 1 parenthesis and it doesn't tell me anything that it's not closed
2015-04-19T23:45:14Z pjb: If your buffer is unbalanced, paredit deactivate itself.
2015-04-19T23:45:27Z pjb: So first, type M-x check-parens RET and balance your parentheses.
2015-04-19T23:45:41Z pjb: Then activate paredit M-x paredit-mode RET
2015-04-19T23:47:57Z linux_dream: done
2015-04-19T23:48:37Z pjb: Then you'll see how typing ( inserts () so parentheses are always balanced.
2015-04-19T23:48:49Z pjb: Type C-h m to see all the commands currently available.
2015-04-19T23:49:13Z linux_dream: wow I cannot erase parenthsis that would create an unbalance. amazing
2015-04-19T23:49:36Z linux_dream: yeah it works now
2015-04-19T23:50:39Z pjb: the various paredit slurp and barf commands are nice too, as well as paredit-wrap-round M-(
2015-04-19T23:51:14Z linux_dream: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147265
2015-04-19T23:52:02Z pjb: linux_dream: now, random-coordinate doesn't call any function that use the global variable *n* so you should probably not rebind it as a parameter!  It is useless and misleading!
2015-04-19T23:52:46Z pjb: same for dec inc.  There are also already 1- and 1+ so there's little point in redefining them.
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2015-04-19T23:53:32Z Bicyclidine: i had a simple program that wasn't working for hours and it was because i got confused and thought (1- x) meant (- 1 x). frickin' a
2015-04-19T23:53:49Z linux_dream: I'm confused pjb.
2015-04-19T23:54:00Z linux_dream: about the random-coordinate function
2015-04-19T23:54:12Z pjb: (1- 4) --> 3
2015-04-19T23:54:44Z pjb: Yes, it's confusing a name, but that's because -1 is an integer, not a symbol that they decided to invert the character order.
2015-04-19T23:55:34Z pjb: You could write: (defmacro defalias (new old) `(setf (symbol-function ',new) (symbol-function ',old)))
2015-04-19T23:55:36Z pjb: and: (defalias inc 1+) (defalias dec 1-)
2015-04-19T23:55:50Z Bicyclidine: i might actually.
2015-04-19T23:56:05Z linux_dream: are you talking to me or Bicyclidine , pjb?
2015-04-19T23:56:11Z pjb: to everybody!
2015-04-19T23:56:15Z linux_dream: lol
2015-04-19T23:57:01Z axion: doesn't emacs highlight function names differently than ints?
2015-04-19T23:57:04Z axion: i know vim does
2015-04-19T23:57:16Z pjb: yes, it does.
2015-04-19T23:57:36Z pjb: (defun 42 (x) (print 'duh))
2015-04-19T23:57:37Z linux_dream: anyway, pjb, I don't understand why on line 36 (defun already-a-stone ()    should have as arguments *x-coordinate*  and *y-coordinate* and not *board*
2015-04-19T23:58:07Z pjb: linux_dream: I agree with you.
2015-04-19T23:58:20Z pjb: You should try to minimize the use of global variables.
2015-04-19T23:58:48Z pjb: Therefore: (defun cell-contains-stone-p (board x y) …)
2015-04-19T23:58:53Z linux_dream: right now I just want the program to work. and improve it later I guess
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2015-04-19T23:59:16Z axion: less globals makes flow easier to follow and get things working
2015-04-19T23:59:18Z pjb: No, you must first improve it, so it may eventually work.
2015-04-19T23:59:24Z linux_dream: ok
2015-04-19T23:59:42Z pjb: If you make a mess, it will never work.