2015-04-17T00:01:38Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T00:03:07Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:04:10Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-17T00:04:20Z gnuian joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:05:13Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T00:07:00Z Xach: jasom: cool stuff. 2015-04-17T00:07:10Z Xach: jasom: what sort of things will you do when you come out the other side? 2015-04-17T00:07:59Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:08:29Z jasom: Xach: I haven't thought that far yet 2015-04-17T00:08:46Z jasom: put up a browser with a REPL that loads in less than 4 hours 2015-04-17T00:09:08Z jasom: (There is a JVM implemented in JS that I got abcl to successfully run on, but it had a 4 hour load time) 2015-04-17T00:10:37Z pillton: Haha 2015-04-17T00:11:37Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:11:41Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T00:13:04Z jasom wishes for a macroexpand for C 2015-04-17T00:13:12Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:13:38Z Xach: energize! 2015-04-17T00:13:39Z Xach left #lisp 2015-04-17T00:14:12Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:14:16Z brucem: jasom: was away for emscripten-related conference call for a few. 2015-04-17T00:14:53Z brucem: jasom: I actually *like* -O -g2 emscripten output for figuring out what's going on behind all of the macros, C++ magic, etc. 2015-04-17T00:15:21Z brucem: jasom: But I spend more time than just about anyone else in the world (outside of azakai and one or two other people) reading it. 2015-04-17T00:15:28Z jasom: return(((void *(*)(clObject *,...))(*((*((args[0])->closure).hook = ((args[0])->closure).environment), ((args[0])->closure).function)))((args+1)[0], (args+1)[1], (args+1)[2], (args+1)[3], (args+1)[4], (args+1)[5], (args+1)[6], (args+1)[7], (args+1)[8], (args+1)[9], (args+1)[10], (args+1)[11], (args+1)[12], (args+1)[13], (args+1)[14], (args+1)[15], (args+1)[16], (args+1)[17], (args+1)[18], (args+1)[19], 2015-04-17T00:15:31Z jasom: (args+1)[20], (args+1)[21], (args+1)[22], (args+1)[23], (args+1)[24], (args+1)[25], (args+1)[26], (args+1)[27], (args+1)[28], (args+1)[29], (args+1)[30], (args+1)[31], (args+1)[32], (args+1)[33], (args+1)[34], (args+1)[35], (args+1)[36], (args+1)[37], (args+1)[38], (args+1)[39], (args+1)[40], (args+1)[41], (args+1)[42], (args+1)[43], (args+1)[44], (args+1)[45], (args+1)[46], (args+1)[47], (args+1)[48], 2015-04-17T00:15:33Z jasom: (args+1)[49], (args+1)[50])); 2015-04-17T00:15:34Z jasom: whoops, that was one line before I hit enter 2015-04-17T00:16:00Z jasom: The cast should make it call via FUNCTION_TABLE_vi, right? 2015-04-17T00:16:36Z brucem: jasom: yes... I think so. 2015-04-17T00:16:44Z jasom: I'll move it around a bit, since it's not 2015-04-17T00:17:04Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:18:18Z brucem: jasom: Oh, you'll have to make sure the thing being called has the (roughly) correct prototype. 2015-04-17T00:18:41Z jasom: brucem: all lisp functions have a prototype of _vi already 2015-04-17T00:18:52Z jasom: it uses a macro to define their arglist 2015-04-17T00:19:20Z brucem: great! 2015-04-17T00:19:26Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T00:19:57Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:20:57Z jasom: bah, still using FUNCTION_TABLE_iii 2015-04-17T00:23:03Z brucem: jasom: You might need to pass -s EMULATE_FUNCTION_POINTER_CASTS=1 to emcc 2015-04-17T00:24:10Z jasom: *still* function_table_iii 2015-04-17T00:24:17Z jasom: I'll make a reduced test-case 2015-04-17T00:25:08Z jasom: it is casting a non-function pointer to a function-pointer, which isn't valid ANSI C 2015-04-17T00:25:21Z jasom: but is used everywhere 2015-04-17T00:26:28Z warweasle left #lisp 2015-04-17T00:27:51Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-17T00:28:01Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:30:28Z jasom: ah, I think I found it; I was missing an extra * since the result got dereferrenced 2015-04-17T00:30:39Z qbit joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:30:50Z jasom: nope, stil iii 2015-04-17T00:30:57Z jasom: is it perhaps confused by the comma operator? 2015-04-17T00:30:58Z psy_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-17T00:31:02Z qbit is now known as Guest81417 2015-04-17T00:31:25Z brucem: jasom: Look at the LLVM IR perhaps. 2015-04-17T00:31:43Z Zhivago: jasom: It's guaranteed by posix. 2015-04-17T00:32:02Z Zhivago: jasom: So as long as 'everywhere' is 'posix', you should be good. :) 2015-04-17T00:32:37Z jasom: Zhivago: lots of things are guaranteed by POSIX, and some of them actually happen on one or two OSes, almost by accident 2015-04-17T00:32:43Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:33:06Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:33:08Z Zhivago: POSIX extends the C specification for posix systems. It's not an os issue, per-se. 2015-04-17T00:33:54Z didi-ng joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:34:08Z jasom: brucem: how do I decode the bitcode? 2015-04-17T00:34:11Z Guest81417 is now known as qbitr 2015-04-17T00:34:38Z brucem: jasom: You got bitcode by emcc -c foo.c -o foo.bc ? 2015-04-17T00:34:48Z qbitr is now known as qbit 2015-04-17T00:34:53Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:34:55Z jasom: oh, no. I thought the .o were bitcode in emcc 2015-04-17T00:34:56Z brucem: jasom: You can use llvm-dis on the .bc file to get a .ll file. 2015-04-17T00:34:58Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T00:35:03Z brucem: jasom: oh, might be. 2015-04-17T00:35:24Z brucem: jasom: llvm-dis is the util for bc to textual IR. 2015-04-17T00:35:47Z brucem: jasom: although you can get clang to do it as well: clang -S -emit-llvm -c foo.bc -o foo.ll 2015-04-17T00:36:52Z didi-ng left #lisp 2015-04-17T00:37:19Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T00:39:24Z jasom: %144 = call i8* (%union.clObjectCell**, ...)* %41(%union.clO 2015-04-17T00:39:31Z jasom: that *looks* like the right signature 2015-04-17T00:39:55Z qbit left #lisp 2015-04-17T00:39:57Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:40:29Z qbit joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:41:04Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T00:41:25Z qbit left #lisp 2015-04-17T00:41:43Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:42:25Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-17T00:42:45Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:44:18Z keen__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T00:45:30Z keen__ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:48:20Z fxck quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T00:48:26Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-17T00:48:45Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:49:44Z sssam joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:52:25Z sssam quit (Quit: Client Exiting) 2015-04-17T00:55:05Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:56:25Z badkins quit 2015-04-17T00:56:46Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:57:46Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:58:24Z gendl_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-17T00:58:32Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-17T00:59:08Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-17T00:59:32Z jasom: brucem: anyway, thanks a *bunch* for the llvm help, I should be able to figure it out 2015-04-17T00:59:54Z brucem: jasom: you're welcome! 2015-04-17T01:00:06Z brucem: jasom: this is basically what my job is like, except less painful than my actual job. 2015-04-17T01:00:24Z jasom: you do emscripten at your job? 2015-04-17T01:01:18Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:01:43Z brucem: jasom: Yeah ... I support my client's usage of emscripten for their game engine ... 2015-04-17T01:02:24Z brucem: jasom: In the last 2+ years, I replaced most of the libc in emscripten with musl ... I updated libcxx a couple of times and cleaned up the integration ... lots of bug fixes / reports ... etc. 2015-04-17T01:03:28Z jasom: musl is very nice the few times I've worked with it 2015-04-17T01:04:49Z brucem: jasom: Like much Lisp work today, musl is a labor of love and craftsmanship. :) 2015-04-17T01:05:00Z zacts quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-17T01:09:59Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:10:53Z smokeink: in slime 2015-04-02, when i eval a broken sexp using C-M-x i can quickly press 'a' to ABORT, however, if i eval it with C-c C-j, pressing 'a' will give these *Messages* : Evaluation aborted on NIL.| error in process filter: slime-repl-show-abort: Text is read-only | error in process filter: Text is read-only, and it takes 1-2 seconds before it aborts. Could it be a SLIME bug ? 2015-04-17T01:11:36Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-17T01:12:55Z burtons quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T01:13:28Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-17T01:21:47Z linux_dream quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-17T01:23:05Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T01:23:49Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:24:12Z jasom: brucem: is there any way to check which table a given function has ended up in? 2015-04-17T01:24:29Z Guest75265 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:24:38Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:24:40Z brucem: jasom: not without inspecting the generated JS that I know of. 2015-04-17T01:24:50Z jasom: how about even by inspecting it 2015-04-17T01:25:50Z a2015_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:26:04Z bipt joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:26:27Z brucem: jasom: start from the end of the file and search backwards for your function name. 2015-04-17T01:26:36Z jasom: the function name doesn't appear in the file 2015-04-17T01:26:38Z jasom: the .js file 2015-04-17T01:26:55Z Guest75265 left #lisp 2015-04-17T01:27:55Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-17T01:28:00Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T01:28:27Z brucem: jasom: why's that? 2015-04-17T01:28:34Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-17T01:28:36Z jasom: not sure 2015-04-17T01:29:37Z brucem: towards the end of the file, you'll see a bunch of var FUNCTION_TABLE_... = [...] statements. That's how you find out, once you find out where your function went :) 2015-04-17T01:30:03Z brucem: jasom: I'm having the reverse problem with DCE ... some code isn't getting DCE now but was in December and I'm still not sure why. 2015-04-17T01:30:57Z jasom: odd; that function is ending up in FUNCTION_TABLE_iii too 2015-04-17T01:32:04Z jasom: BOOO it's declared as not varargs, but defined as varargs 2015-04-17T01:32:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: I've loaded some libraries with quicklisp that I didn't have the binaries for. Now that I have the libraries, I can't figure out how to reload the code. Is there an easier way to do it than restart lisp? 2015-04-17T01:33:38Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:33:41Z brucem: jasom: so, that's getting back to the code I talked about in lib/Target/JSBackend/CallHandlers.h then 2015-04-17T01:34:03Z jasom: right, well I'll fix the declarations 2015-04-17T01:34:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ah nevermind, I think I figured out how to do it. 2015-04-17T01:38:44Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:39:08Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:40:47Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: knowing that conditions came late enough into the CL specifications, you can observe that conditions are greatly underspecified in CL. Notice eg. how clhs aref has: "Exceptional Situations: None." Most of the condition specified are very abstract, and most often implementation only signal simple-error kind of conditions, ie. with a format-control and format-arguments. 2015-04-17T01:41:01Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: you can often recover useful data form format-arguments, but this is not conforming. 2015-04-17T01:41:56Z bipt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-17T01:41:59Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:42:00Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: of course, when writing your own libraries and applications, you can take full advantage of the condition system. 2015-04-17T01:42:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ah, that's dissapointing. I thought that error message was standard. 2015-04-17T01:44:00Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: for your purpose, it would be preferable to have a condition without message, but with a lot of slots containing the data needed or useful for recovery. 2015-04-17T01:44:17Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T01:44:41Z pjb: sicl will probably have nicer conditions. In the meantime, all you can do is to wrap CL primitive with handler-case and signal your own conditions. 2015-04-17T01:46:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: sicl? 2015-04-17T01:46:20Z pjb: beach's implementation. 2015-04-17T01:46:35Z Petit_Dejeuner: ah 2015-04-17T01:50:44Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-17T01:51:49Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-17T01:53:32Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:55:46Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-17T01:56:50Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:58:09Z badkins quit 2015-04-17T01:59:13Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T01:59:20Z White__Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-17T01:59:27Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-17T02:02:45Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-17T02:04:14Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T02:10:17Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-04-17T02:14:09Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T02:16:28Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-17T02:18:12Z a2015_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-04-17T02:18:46Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-17T02:21:32Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-17T02:25:25Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-17T02:30:13Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-17T02:30:55Z zacts: hello 2015-04-17T02:34:06Z smokeink: hi 2015-04-17T02:36:47Z smokeink: i have a question, why does it give error if there is no space before } ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/147143 2015-04-17T02:38:15Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T02:38:30Z c74d quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-17T02:40:46Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-17T02:41:47Z White__Flame: probably because #\} isn't declared to be a terminating character specifically, and thus "1}" is being read a single token 2015-04-17T02:42:10Z White__Flame: ...as a single token 2015-04-17T02:42:51Z smokeink: any way to make it read 1} as two tokens ? 2015-04-17T02:43:07Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-17T02:43:08Z White__Flame: declare #\} as a terminator in the readtable 2015-04-17T02:43:30Z White__Flame: you likely also want colon and comma to do the same 2015-04-17T02:44:02Z White__Flame: "terminating n. (of a macro character) being such that, if it appears while parsing a token, it terminates that token." 2015-04-17T02:44:25Z Zhivago: What you probably really want is read-delimited-list. 2015-04-17T02:45:02Z Zhivago: But trying to use the reader to read json is probably going to be highly educational yet disappointing. 2015-04-17T02:46:18Z White__Flame: I'm not sure that read-delimited-list would work, if "1}" is being read as a single symbo 2015-04-17T02:46:29Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-04-17T02:46:38Z michael_lee joined #lisp 2015-04-17T02:46:42Z smokeink: i am using read-delimited-list 2015-04-17T02:47:07Z White__Flame: smokeink: the CLHS page for that lists this exact situation 2015-04-17T02:47:18Z White__Flame: #{ p q z a}, where "a}" is a single token 2015-04-17T02:48:06Z smokeink: Zhivago, why would it be disappointing? 2015-04-17T02:50:09Z Zhivago: smokeink: Because it probably won't work effectively, and will probably be so horrible that your eyeballs will bleed. 2015-04-17T02:50:11Z White__Flame: set-macro-character's double negative for terminating characters (set non-terminating-p to nil) is much less clear than it would be inverted 2015-04-17T02:50:40Z White__Flame: Zhivago: strings, ints, and floats would work out of the box. I don't see the problem 2015-04-17T02:50:55Z Zhivago: Remember also that json uses utf-8. How is your reader configured for Chinese? 2015-04-17T02:51:27Z swedishfish joined #lisp 2015-04-17T02:51:56Z smokeink: 哈哈, well the question is how to configure it for Chinese & other languages ? 2015-04-17T02:51:58Z White__Flame has done tons of round trip UTF-8'ing, including Chinese, without any configuration woes 2015-04-17T02:52:13Z White__Flame: including custom readers and such 2015-04-17T02:52:48Z Zhivago: On which implementations? 2015-04-17T02:52:55Z White__Flame: SBCL and CCL 2015-04-17T02:53:08Z Zhivago: Are chinese constituent characters in your readtable? 2015-04-17T02:53:26Z White__Flame: no, why would they? 2015-04-17T02:53:30Z smokeink: if chinese characters work in strings, why wouldn't they work in strings that are contained in a json ? 2015-04-17T02:53:59Z smokeink: string 'em 2015-04-17T02:54:01Z Zhivago: Actually, I guess json forcing them to be in strings helps there -- I was thinking of javascript, I guess. 2015-04-17T02:54:09Z Zhivago: I guess it might work. 2015-04-17T02:54:13Z White__Flame: right, {foo:3} is invalid JSON 2015-04-17T02:55:18Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-17T02:55:18Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-04-17T02:57:22Z smokeink: fixed it http://paste.lisp.org/display/147144 2015-04-17T02:57:44Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T02:58:46Z White__Flame quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-17T02:59:01Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:00:44Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-17T03:03:14Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T03:03:34Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-17T03:08:05Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-04-17T03:10:23Z vdamewood quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-04-17T03:13:15Z White_Flame: any idea why whitespace characters, backspace, and rubout are considered constituent? 2015-04-17T03:14:07Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:15:44Z beach joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:15:53Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-04-17T03:16:15Z Zhivago: White: Presumably for use with ||. 2015-04-17T03:17:10Z smokeink: good morning beach 2015-04-17T03:17:41Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T03:18:09Z swedishfish quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-17T03:19:08Z Zhivago: Although that doesn't really make sense. 2015-04-17T03:20:18Z White_Flame: this implies all of these characters are "constituent" characters: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/02_adb.htm 2015-04-17T03:20:30Z White_Flame: which is 104 to my count, which is still greater than the 98 standard 2015-04-17T03:20:43Z White_Flame: erm, 96 standard 2015-04-17T03:21:13Z White_Flame: anyway, it's probably just some of the inherent spec issues 2015-04-17T03:21:15Z smokeink: is it possible to make a read-macro that would expand params."username" to (getjso "username" params) ? 2015-04-17T03:22:02Z White_Flame: "is it possible" is normally true, but I'd do regular macros for that 2015-04-17T03:22:14Z White_Flame: assuming that "username" appears in a macro body somewhere 2015-04-17T03:23:00Z White_Flame: you really don't want to put too much in the reader itself, for organization's sake 2015-04-17T03:23:19Z White_Flame: better to work with objects than with character streams, for robustness 2015-04-17T03:23:49Z jangle joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:24:40Z White_Flame: for tha tparticular situation, I'd just make the period its own readable, terminating punctuating token 2015-04-17T03:25:19Z White_Flame: most punctuation in most other languages are terminating; you'll find yourself enabling that a lot when reading such languages with the lisp reader 2015-04-17T03:25:19Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:25:33Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-04-17T03:25:44Z jlongster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T03:26:01Z White_Flame: and the more complex it gets, considering a standard parser outside the reader infrastructure starts making a lot of sense 2015-04-17T03:26:32Z smokeink: just for fun, or perhaps it might save some typing during the dev of the webapp, i'd like to be able to write (auth (getjso "username" params) (getjso "password" params)) as(auth params."username" params."password") 2015-04-17T03:27:43Z pillton: Why not just (auth params "username" "password") ? 2015-04-17T03:27:55Z White_Flame: I'd still say have the reader give you '(auth params # "username" params # "password"), for whatever value of # makes sense for you, and then transform against a list 2015-04-17T03:29:24Z smokeink: pillton, that version would be a higher level of abstractization over my version, maybe sometimes i just need to access a member of the json object , the dot notation would be useful 2015-04-17T03:32:05Z ynix joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:33:45Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:33:45Z smokeink: how to make the reader give me that list? i can't use read-delimited-list like in this situation http://paste.lisp.org/display/147144 where the reading of the list starts when it encounters #\{ 2015-04-17T03:36:12Z smokeink: how do i make it figure out the whole form containing the dot(s) 2015-04-17T03:36:19Z wwwBUKOLAYcom quit 2015-04-17T03:38:08Z ynix: Does just about everyone use the Emacs - SLIME combo to develop Lisp? Does anyone use Vim? Is there a way to get the same sort of integration? 2015-04-17T03:38:18Z smokeink: i used vim 2015-04-17T03:38:30Z smokeink: with slimv 2015-04-17T03:39:09Z ynix: I'll check that out 2015-04-17T03:39:31Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:40:55Z smokeink: you can get a basic dev environment for lisp, slimv is pretty cool, but still, if you like lisp you will eventually have to switch to emacs 2015-04-17T03:42:47Z smokeink: i switched to emacs recently, it was an amazing experience, u have nothing to fear. vim is cool too, but emacs has much more to offer :) 2015-04-17T03:43:30Z bipt joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:43:46Z smokeink: emacs is actually easier to learn. as a vimmer, you will want Evil mode plugin installed, and u'll miss nothing from vim 2015-04-17T03:44:33Z smokeink: you can't have emacs in vim, but you can have vim in emacs :D 2015-04-17T03:44:37Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T03:44:50Z ynix: I've used emacs extensively, I just like Vim way better, and I know about Evil mode. Can you explain what about Emacs and Lisp will cause me to have to change in the future? 2015-04-17T03:45:47Z zacts: I like vim too, but I'm using emacs too 2015-04-17T03:45:52Z H4ns: ynix: the integration is just much better because many people contribute to slime, whereas slimv receives (comparatively) little attention 2015-04-17T03:45:58Z smokeink: slimE has more functionality than slimV 2015-04-17T03:46:09Z zacts: I've considered improving vim/neovim to have better indent support for lisp 2015-04-17T03:46:16Z zacts: and other things 2015-04-17T03:47:07Z smokeink: i find working with windows and buffers is easier in emacs 2015-04-17T03:47:26Z H4ns: smokeink: that is really more about your taste 2015-04-17T03:47:50Z ynix: How much of a pain in the ass is Evil mode going to be? Is it well designed to work with Emacs? 2015-04-17T03:47:50Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:47:52Z H4ns: i know respectable lisp programmers who don't even have or use something like M-., but i could not live without it. 2015-04-17T03:47:57Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:48:12Z smokeink: Evil mode works well in emacs 2015-04-17T03:48:13Z zacts: ynix: my only problem with evil-mode, is that it causes emacs to start slowly 2015-04-17T03:48:20Z zacts: although, you can work around that with emacsclient 2015-04-17T03:48:23Z H4ns: ynix: it is said to be good enough to convince seasoned vim users to switch 2015-04-17T03:48:27Z smokeink: and i also love Lispy mode 2015-04-17T03:48:31Z zacts: but, I like to have multiple emacs / vim sessions open at once 2015-04-17T03:48:43Z zacts: but I'm also on a slow computer 2015-04-17T03:48:55Z zacts: but, it really mimics vim really really well 2015-04-17T03:48:59Z zacts: and even adds improvements 2015-04-17T03:49:13Z zacts: and melpa has many vim plugins adapted for emacs 2015-04-17T03:49:20Z zacts: and it keeps growing 2015-04-17T03:49:21Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T03:49:33Z eMBee quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T03:49:51Z smokeink: i have Lispy and Evil mode activated when i code lisp - and i can switch between them with C-z 2015-04-17T03:49:56Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-17T03:50:03Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:50:04Z smokeink: i was forced to switch to emacs.. because slimV lacks many things 2015-04-17T03:50:15Z smokeink: for example you can't invoke restarts by numbers 2015-04-17T03:50:18Z smokeink: that pissed me off 2015-04-17T03:50:50Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:51:09Z smokeink: you can't really do debugging in slimv, that's what made me give emacs/slime a chance 2015-04-17T03:52:30Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:52:42Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-04-17T03:53:27Z vr-rm: defparameter seems in most cases superior to defvar (not often that you would want to make a change to a dynamic variables value's in the source file but not want them to be updated the next time you load the page, i would think) Is there any downside to always using defparameter with respect to custom or performance? 2015-04-17T03:54:09Z eMBee joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:54:15Z H4ns: vr-rm: no, except that defparameter "is for" variables changed by the user and defvar "is for" variables changed by the program 2015-04-17T03:54:34Z H4ns: vr-rm: i.e. the distinction is mostly good for the human reader. 2015-04-17T03:55:11Z pillton: Hmm. I always use defvar for user stuff. 2015-04-17T03:55:25Z smokeink: you can't open hyperspec in vim.. you can't do a lot of stuff. i recently started to use restclient.el - it integrates so well with my workflow.. i run web requests and then i debug and inspect my webapp without leaving emacs - that can't be done in vim.. another thing is the emacs Calculator. i've look for some vim calculators but i haven't found any good ones. i would use emacs even just for that calculat 2015-04-17T03:55:25Z smokeink: or alone :D 2015-04-17T03:58:24Z vr-rm: Ah, ok. my programming style is that as define and redefine variables and evaluate them is slime, c-m-x, soon I have a whole page spotted with defparameter, I'm wondering to myself wether it's worth replacing them with defvars. 2015-04-17T03:58:45Z vr-rm: (only to have to change them back to defparameter during my next session. 2015-04-17T03:58:56Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-17T03:59:30Z pillton: vr-rm: Show some code. I think you are doing it wrong. 2015-04-17T03:59:42Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-17T03:59:45Z beach: vr-rm: I use DEFVAR when I do not want an initial value so that the program signals an error if some top-level function fails to bind it correctly. 2015-04-17T04:00:22Z pillton: vr-rm: Use paste.lisp.org. 2015-04-17T04:02:11Z White_Flame: one downside with defvar is that it doesn't re-initialize program state on reload 2015-04-17T04:02:14Z White_Flame: even for purely machine-altered variables 2015-04-17T04:02:45Z White_Flame: so I tend to rely on establishing bindings with let, especially since I'm often multithreaded, and only mutating my own local bindings 2015-04-17T04:04:23Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:04:25Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:05:05Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T04:05:25Z vr-rm: This would be an example of how I might refactor a function I'm working on. Probably I'll change the packages to include or their representation, so I make it a defparameter. 2015-04-17T04:05:26Z vr-rm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147146 2015-04-17T04:06:11Z brucem: beach: random question ... do you happen to know who any of the Lispworks people are? Are they on Twitter? 2015-04-17T04:08:17Z pillton: vr-rm: Is *packages-to-trace* something you intend to modify or is it a constant? 2015-04-17T04:08:56Z A205B064 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T04:09:08Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-04-17T04:11:33Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:14:01Z vr-rm: Actually, it's not 100% clear to me at this point in the coding. Probably it will be a superset of of all possible packages to trace, from which you can subtract packages using a second variable. But I'm not far enough along to know whether that's the best approach. 2015-04-17T04:14:43Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-04-17T04:15:45Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T04:17:29Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:18:29Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T04:18:59Z pillton: vr-rm: Ok, then I wouldn't spend too much time agonising over it. Note that you can also do (let ((all-packages-to-trace ...)) (defun get-all-...)). 2015-04-17T04:19:26Z Bike quit (Quit: restart) 2015-04-17T04:20:42Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:22:11Z BRFPocock joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:22:47Z vr-rm: pillton: ok. thanks! My chief concern was that there might be a significant performance problem, or some 'hidden' usage issue like there is with the naive use of defconstant . 2015-04-17T04:24:42Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:26:24Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-17T04:26:37Z beach: brucem: I meet them regularly, but I don't know about Twitter. 2015-04-17T04:27:14Z pillton: vr-rm: File these concerns under premature optimization. I'll get you some matches to burn the file. 2015-04-17T04:27:34Z beach: brucem: They will probably be at ELS because they have their office not far from London. 2015-04-17T04:30:12Z beach: brucem: Do you have a message for them? 2015-04-17T04:30:20Z beach: drmeister: Around? 2015-04-17T04:30:33Z drmeister: For a little while 2015-04-17T04:30:40Z brucem: beach: no ... just curious. I'm about to modify some HARP code this weekend. Any chance you know Paul Miller though? 2015-04-17T04:30:41Z beach: drmeister: I simplified the source-tracking protocol: http://metamodular.com/source-tracking.pdf 2015-04-17T04:30:57Z beach: brucem: Not personally, no. 2015-04-17T04:31:01Z drmeister: brucem: Do you think Ravenbrook people will be at ELS? 2015-04-17T04:31:21Z beach: drmeister: Nick Levine will be there. 2015-04-17T04:31:24Z brucem: drmeister: I don't know. rb is on vacation right now. (I heard from gdr yesterday.) 2015-04-17T04:31:43Z beach: drmeister: I assume he is still working for them. 2015-04-17T04:32:06Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T04:32:40Z drmeister: I miss dl. 2015-04-17T04:34:25Z drmeister: That does look simplified. 2015-04-17T04:34:32Z ynix quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T04:34:38Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:36:14Z beach: drmeister: It should fit was most implementations are doing. 2015-04-17T04:37:08Z beach: drmeister: You could just ignore END-SOURCE, stick your hash table in a CLOS instance, and write a method on BEGIN-SOURCE that looks up the expression in the hash table. 2015-04-17T04:37:45Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T04:41:29Z drmeister: What is source-info? 2015-04-17T04:43:01Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2015-04-17T04:44:01Z swedishfish joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:44:08Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-17T04:44:25Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:44:53Z k-dawg quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-17T04:46:13Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-17T04:47:20Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:47:44Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:48:09Z beach: drmeister: Whatever you want it to be. 2015-04-17T04:48:47Z beach: drmeister: Some class instance that contains information about the location of the source code. In your case, probably file name, line number, column number. 2015-04-17T04:49:11Z drmeister: Ok - I was a bit confused. 2015-04-17T04:49:13Z beach: Cleavir will just store it in the AST, and move it over to the HIR instructions. 2015-04-17T04:49:24Z drmeister: What about macros? 2015-04-17T04:49:33Z beach: I don't know yet. 2015-04-17T04:49:41Z drmeister: This should be interesting. 2015-04-17T04:49:42Z beach: What do you currently do? 2015-04-17T04:50:03Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:50:15Z drmeister: I copy the source info from the form that is being macro expanded to the macro expanded code 2015-04-17T04:50:40Z beach: I think I can do the same. 2015-04-17T04:50:44Z drmeister: I'm not sure if that is even remotely correct. 2015-04-17T04:51:05Z beach: Certainly for forms that are CONSes and that are EQ it ought to be right. 2015-04-17T04:51:24Z drmeister: I thought whatever the expansion is I want it to look like it came from wherever the macro was originally. 2015-04-17T04:51:57Z beach: From where the macro CALL was, right? 2015-04-17T04:52:57Z smokeink_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:53:14Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T04:53:30Z smokeink_ is now known as smokeink 2015-04-17T04:54:35Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-04-17T04:54:48Z drmeister: What would you guess the "Scope" of a function would be? 2015-04-17T04:54:50Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:54:53Z drmeister: In C++ 2015-04-17T04:55:16Z Bike: global, usually? 2015-04-17T04:55:25Z Bike: dunno about methods. 2015-04-17T04:57:22Z drmeister: I'm creating DWARF debugging info and it wants the scope of a function. Sheesh. 2015-04-17T04:58:27Z Bike: oh, googled page suggests it's just public/protected/private. 2015-04-17T04:58:47Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-17T04:58:49Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-17T04:59:01Z beach: Also some languages have local functions. I assume DWARF is not specific to C or C++. 2015-04-17T04:59:20Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-17T04:59:23Z Bike: or just whether it's extern...? 2015-04-17T04:59:34Z hekmek joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:00:02Z drmeister: No, that wouldn't work. 2015-04-17T05:01:56Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:02:09Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:02:10Z Oddity: I would ask ##C++ 2015-04-17T05:02:29Z brucem: I'd just read the DWARF spec. 2015-04-17T05:04:01Z Zhivago: I wouldn't expect ##c++ to care about random linkers. 2015-04-17T05:04:25Z Zhivago: You might want to refer to the platform ABI, if it exists, as well as the dwarf spec. 2015-04-17T05:04:43Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:05:38Z Slothel: I'm thinking of going to the netherlands. Free education. 2015-04-17T05:05:44Z Slothel: That freakin' rocks. 2015-04-17T05:05:49Z Zhivago: For evil foreigners? 2015-04-17T05:07:00Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T05:08:30Z BRFPocock: drmeister: ref: DW_AT_accessibility ? 2015-04-17T05:09:34Z mega1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T05:09:59Z drmeister: I think it's the file - MDFile inherits from MDScope (DWARF metadata classes in llvm) my Common Lisp wrappers are spoiling the inheritance somehow. 2015-04-17T05:10:20Z drmeister: BRFPocock: ? 2015-04-17T05:10:49Z BRFPocock: Wondering which Dwarf field you were referring-to as far as the fn scope. 2015-04-17T05:11:37Z chu joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:12:18Z beach: Slothel: Same in France still. 2015-04-17T05:12:30Z BRFPocock: But that suggests you mean, the scope containing the symbol, the program scope (global) vs. "compilation unit" file scope, different tables within the Dwarf 2015-04-17T05:14:01Z BRFPocock: There are also lexical scope pads, dunno if that is useful info to you or not; found the bookmark dwarfstd.org though. Haven't played under the hood with llvm 2015-04-17T05:16:25Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:16:58Z beach: Slothel: Where are you now? 2015-04-17T05:17:18Z Slothel: beach: Utah, of all places 2015-04-17T05:17:26Z beach: I am surprised that not all American parents send their kids to Europe for university. 2015-04-17T05:17:39Z Slothel: beach: I'd love to go there for graduate school 2015-04-17T05:17:57Z beach: The fee in France is around 200€ per year or so. 2015-04-17T05:18:11Z Slothel: I graduated with somewhere around $30k in student loan debt 2015-04-17T05:18:15Z Slothel: for undergraduate 2015-04-17T05:18:29Z Slothel: Probably going to apply for graduate school in a year or so 2015-04-17T05:18:46Z BRFPocock: Ditto, but only an 18-month art school, not even undergrad :-) 2015-04-17T05:19:11Z Slothel: BRFPocock: Ouch. I was lucky in that I got small "honour roll" scholarships that helped somewhat 2015-04-17T05:19:21Z BRFPocock: If anyone had suggested the ability to go to school in Europe, I'd have jumped, but I understand there are steep barriers to getting in. 2015-04-17T05:19:34Z Bike: don't underestimate the ocean 2015-04-17T05:19:37Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T05:19:45Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:20:13Z BRFPocock: I couldn't afford actual college, but the loans let me get through art school (Digital Media) with only 2 jobs. 2015-04-17T05:20:45Z Slothel: I wish I hadn't done it to be honest 2015-04-17T05:21:08Z BRFPocock: I had Scrabble grades, no hope of good scholarships. (Got enough different letter grades to spell things) 2015-04-17T05:21:33Z Zhivago: I think the Australian method isn't a bad compromise between the two. You get an extra tax bracket that kicks in if you start making decent money, and knocks off about 1% until you've paid it back or died. 2015-04-17T05:21:45Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:22:04Z BRFPocock: Ours is, "income-sensitive repayment" rates, but then, it still earns high interest all the time. 2015-04-17T05:22:27Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:23:39Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T05:23:44Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T05:23:52Z smokeink: is it possible to put a return-from above line 40 (let ((pairs...) http://paste.lisp.org/display/147144 that would return from the lambda? 2015-04-17T05:24:57Z BRFPocock: I'm definitely encouraging my (future) kid(s) to learn some German or French atop Spanish & English, though, just in case things are the same in 18 years ;) 2015-04-17T05:25:00Z Bike: smokeink: sure, throw in a block 2015-04-17T05:25:15Z smokeink: ok 2015-04-17T05:25:17Z BRFPocock: smokeink: (block some-name (let .... (return-from some-name foo) ) ) 2015-04-17T05:25:19Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:26:23Z smokeink: why not chinese 2015-04-17T05:27:18Z Bike: well, harder to learn from L1 English, for a start. 2015-04-17T05:27:30Z BRFPocock: We're in Florida, the local languages are Spanish, English, and Dayiti (Haitian). Romance languages. So, French is a lot like Dayiti (or vice-versa) + Spanish. 2015-04-17T05:28:01Z BRFPocock: Dayiti = mostly French vocabulary atop African-type grammar. 2015-04-17T05:28:28Z Bike: african-style, heh. 2015-04-17T05:28:33Z flash-- joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:29:22Z BRFPocock: The tense system is more like Western African languages than Romance. 2015-04-17T05:29:47Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-17T05:30:20Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:31:37Z BRFPocock: Besides, my own Mandarin is terrible :-) 2015-04-17T05:32:12Z Slothel: I feel quite out of place 2015-04-17T05:32:17Z Slothel: I'm using DuoLingo to learn German 2015-04-17T05:32:22Z Slothel: but I know no second languages 2015-04-17T05:32:26Z Slothel: unless you count computer languages 2015-04-17T05:32:47Z Bike: you shouldn't. 2015-04-17T05:33:02Z BRFPocock: My husband is learning Irish that way ... it seems to be nice, but I don't know why it's more concerned with "the elephant is eating dinner" than "where is the bathroom" 2015-04-17T05:33:19Z aeth: That's only the first part 2015-04-17T05:33:37Z aeth: I've gotten far in Duolingo in Spanish. The vocabulary widens a bit. 2015-04-17T05:33:53Z BRFPocock: I hope so, or we may need to go to Animal Kingdom to practise :-) 2015-04-17T05:34:13Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:34:19Z aeth: For some reason Duolingo always starts with a few basic words (boy, girl, man, woman, bread, water, milk) and then does phrases, animals and food, etc. 2015-04-17T05:34:24Z aeth: Very formulaic in all the languages there. 2015-04-17T05:34:35Z Slothel: I think the reason I never bothered with foreign languages is that it seems to gain real proficiency you have to immerse yourself which generally means visiting a place where it is prevalent 2015-04-17T05:34:44Z BRFPocock: It's not dissimilar from how we learned English and Spanish as kids 2015-04-17T05:35:03Z pyon quit (Quit: I have irrefutable proof that D < 0. It follows trivially from 2D > 3D, which is obviously true.) 2015-04-17T05:35:27Z beach left #lisp 2015-04-17T05:35:38Z BRFPocock: or insert local street language / cradle language :-) 2015-04-17T05:35:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:36:14Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:36:16Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-04-17T05:36:22Z BRFPocock must flee, sorry for the irrelevancy :-) 2015-04-17T05:36:30Z BRFPocock: good luck Slothel 2015-04-17T05:37:01Z aeth: Duolingo is only the very, very basics, though. There's never a further down "Animals 2" that as aardvark or something. 2015-04-17T05:37:06Z Slothel: BRFPocock: Thanks! I'll need it 2015-04-17T05:37:20Z aeth: s/as/has/ 2015-04-17T05:37:43Z Slothel: I'd like to become proficient in German and also Japanese looks interesting but I'll never actually visit either of those places 2015-04-17T05:37:44Z Slothel: most probably 2015-04-17T05:37:45Z BRFPocock: For that, you must watch too much television aeth :-) 2015-04-17T05:38:22Z aeth: People who are learning English have a major advantage. So many movies and video games and websites in English. 2015-04-17T05:38:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:38:36Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-04-17T05:38:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:38:42Z aeth: It's probably harder (impossible?) to play an RPG in Irish to learn Irish. 2015-04-17T05:39:16Z aeth: Maybe that would be an interesting Duolingo-competitor. Make a game that's translated in dozens of languages where the language in use gets more complicated over time, but translation isn't the focus. So people pick up the language they want to learn more naturally. 2015-04-17T05:39:33Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-17T05:41:51Z aeth: It could be a procedurally generated text-based mystery game, requiring you to comprehend the language to notice the clues or something. Might be an interesting project for someone to code in Lisp 2015-04-17T05:42:45Z White_Flame is reminded of the Chinese Room story 2015-04-17T05:43:07Z White_Flame: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room 2015-04-17T05:43:27Z Bike: that level of conscious control of prose is probably difficult. 2015-04-17T05:43:42Z White_Flame: basically, discover the bindings from whatever opaque symbols you see to game progress 2015-04-17T05:43:55Z Bike: that's just vocab. 2015-04-17T05:43:55Z White_Flame: regardless of the actual depth of understanding 2015-04-17T05:44:08Z protist joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:44:36Z aeth: Bike: It doesn't need to be a computer generating prose, it just needs to generate slightly different versions of the text so that you can't copy someone else or memorize the French version to solve the Russian version or something. 2015-04-17T05:44:37Z White_Flame: also cargo cult pattern matching would be in play 2015-04-17T05:44:52Z Bike: aeth: no, i meant as a human writer, even. 2015-04-17T05:46:52Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:47:54Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:48:49Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T05:51:14Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T05:52:08Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:54:07Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:55:50Z BRFPocock left #lisp 2015-04-17T05:56:15Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:56:15Z Mon_Ouie quit (Changing host) 2015-04-17T05:56:15Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:58:57Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:59:13Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-17T05:59:39Z White__Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-17T05:59:42Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-17T06:01:51Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-17T06:02:08Z sunwukong` joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:03:17Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-04-17T06:03:43Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T06:04:17Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:05:32Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:06:10Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:07:10Z rudolfochrist quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-17T06:07:31Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T06:09:13Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T06:09:48Z przl joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:10:10Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-17T06:10:55Z swedishfish quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-17T06:11:14Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T06:11:16Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-17T06:15:40Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-17T06:17:38Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:19:06Z jangle quit (Quit: jangle) 2015-04-17T06:20:46Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T06:21:08Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:21:51Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:23:57Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-17T06:28:04Z cadadar_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T06:31:52Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:32:59Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:33:18Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T06:38:15Z cadadar_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T06:39:31Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:40:55Z cadadar_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T06:44:52Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T06:45:50Z swedishfish joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:49:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:50:15Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:52:44Z flash-- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T06:54:11Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:55:41Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-17T06:57:45Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T06:59:03Z White__Flame quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-17T06:59:42Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-17T07:01:50Z wes-vdk joined #lisp 2015-04-17T07:05:39Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-17T07:08:59Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-04-17T07:09:20Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-04-17T07:12:19Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-04-17T07:14:42Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-17T07:16:10Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T07:21:30Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-17T07:22:03Z wes-vdk left #lisp 2015-04-17T07:22:39Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T07:28:14Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-04-17T07:29:59Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-17T07:32:00Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T07:32:05Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-04-17T07:33:03Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Is that without additional hacking of the std ARM branch? 2015-04-17T09:14:18Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-04-17T09:14:30Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-04-17T09:14:49Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-04-17T09:15:47Z zadock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T09:16:04Z mega1 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T09:20:49Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T09:24:01Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T09:24:51Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-17T09:25:56Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T09:28:52Z balle: Cymew: yeb just installed the binary 2015-04-17T09:30:36Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-17T09:31:06Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-04-17T09:31:37Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-17T09:32:09Z Niac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T09:32:11Z gnuian quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T09:40:48Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T09:44:38Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-04-17T09:44:38Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-04-17T09:44:38Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-04-17T09:46:42Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-17T09:47:04Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-17T09:50:52Z keen___ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T09:53:13Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-17T09:53:44Z keen__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-17T09:56:09Z hekmek quit (Quit: hekmek) 2015-04-17T09:56:49Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-17T09:57:50Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T09:59:56Z kvsari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-17T10:00:38Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:01:20Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:01:54Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:03:49Z moei joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:04:24Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T10:07:26Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:08:35Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T10:09:08Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:09:18Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-17T10:13:27Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-04-17T10:13:57Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-17T10:13:57Z theos joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:14:08Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T10:17:20Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:17:51Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:19:41Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-17T10:27:33Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T10:29:09Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:30:57Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-17T10:31:14Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:32:56Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T10:34:08Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:34:44Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:34:55Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:34:56Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-17T10:35:01Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:37:47Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-17T10:40:01Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T10:41:53Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:46:53Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T10:47:32Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-04-17T10:47:37Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:49:01Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T10:49:33Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:52:42Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-04-17T10:52:50Z pjb: H4ns: re defvar vs. defparameter, you might want to read news:comp.lang.lisp ; eg. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.lang.lisp/qFp_4ksbquk/XixUNmCc6O4J 2015-04-17T10:57:22Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-17T10:58:39Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:00:52Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:02:19Z pjb: vr-rm: You can rebind a special variable in a lambda list: (defun get-… (… &optional (*packages-to-trace* *packages-to-trace*)) …) or just bind a parameter to one: (defun get-… (… &optional (ptt *packages-to-trace*)) …) ; this avoids using a global variable in your function, but still allows the user to pass this parameter thru a global variable (or not as she wishes). 2015-04-17T11:03:47Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T11:05:14Z loke: pjb: Or use &AUX 2015-04-17T11:06:08Z pjb: and thus deprive the user the choice to pass it as an argument, no thanks. 2015-04-17T11:06:25Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T11:06:36Z loke: pjb: Ah, I just realised you used &optional, not &key 2015-04-17T11:06:52Z loke: It looked like you were promoting some weird (foo :*foo*) thing 2015-04-17T11:08:35Z pjb: While the cost of university education in France is nominaly free (ie. not costing an arm and leg), you still have to pay for your own housing, clothing and feeding. Living a homeless life is probably not propicious to good studies, so you can still count on a sizeable cost there. 2015-04-17T11:08:49Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T11:09:09Z loke: pjb: Don't they pay you something? 2015-04-17T11:09:14Z loke: At least in Sweden they do 2015-04-17T11:09:16Z pjb: Nope. 2015-04-17T11:09:19Z loke: as does Germany I believe 2015-04-17T11:10:06Z pjb: You may get a bourse, but it will probably insufficient, and if you're an american who can pay a travel to europe, you(r parents) probably earn enough to be excluded from it. 2015-04-17T11:10:25Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:11:40Z CRM114 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:14:15Z pjb: loke: (defun f (&key ((:bar *bar*) *bar*)) *bar*) 2015-04-17T11:14:56Z Shinmera: You can get enough social support to sustain an extremely minimal living here in Switzerland, and you probably can pay for university education with that even, but it's very easy to not get that support if your parents would have the money to pay for you instead. 2015-04-17T11:15:20Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-17T11:15:44Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:17:13Z Shinmera: I also don't know how the whole situation would look like if you aren't a Swiss citizen, but that's all off-topic anyway. 2015-04-17T11:17:33Z pjb: Slothel: nowadays with the Internet, you can immerse yourself remotely: just use web sites and watch youtube channels in the language you're learning google.fr, youtube.fr etc. You can set up your own linguistic bathroom at home :-) 2015-04-17T11:18:46Z pjb: Do not read "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation", read "Traité de Programmation en Common Lisp". 2015-04-17T11:18:47Z tajjada joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:20:11Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:21:50Z pjb: aeth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_used_on_the_Internet 1% of ten millions, it's still 100,000 web sites you can browse to learn one of the main languages. 2015-04-17T11:24:10Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2015-04-17T11:25:16Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-17T11:25:32Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:26:15Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:27:25Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-17T11:27:35Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T11:28:33Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:29:45Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:32:06Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T11:32:54Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:38:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T11:39:27Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:40:29Z chrnybo: I'm looking at Nikodemus Siivola's #'sb-daemon:deamonize. Am I to start the server I wish to run as the next call? Say I want to call hunchentoot:start and daemonize - is the intended way to call daemonize, then start? 2015-04-17T11:40:50Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-17T11:45:38Z balle: Shinmera: you're from switzerland? were exactly? i am currently at work at eth zurich ;) 2015-04-17T11:45:58Z Shinmera: balle: So am I! 2015-04-17T11:46:15Z Shinmera: Well, this is certainly a surprise. Never expected to meet another lisper here 2015-04-17T11:46:50Z Shinmera: Well, I'm not 'at work' here, I'm just another one of the thousands of students. 2015-04-17T11:47:42Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T11:48:46Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:49:01Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T11:49:19Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-04-17T11:50:17Z splittist: zslug rides again 2015-04-17T11:52:16Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:56:04Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T11:56:05Z pranavrc_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T11:58:18Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:00:13Z pranavrc_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-17T12:02:10Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:06:30Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T12:10:39Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:12:01Z CRM114 quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 37.0.1/20150403142041]) 2015-04-17T12:12:51Z thoto joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:18:38Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:18:57Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-17T12:21:34Z zacts: hello 2015-04-17T12:21:51Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T12:22:48Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:25:32Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:26:09Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:27:36Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-04-17T12:28:33Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:28:33Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-04-17T12:28:33Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:29:43Z oleo: hello :) 2015-04-17T12:30:50Z zacts: oleo: there used to be this gnu spreadsheet program called oleo 2015-04-17T12:31:13Z oleo: i know 2015-04-17T12:31:19Z oleo: i tried it and it didn't even compile.... 2015-04-17T12:31:20Z zacts: oh, yeah 2015-04-17T12:31:27Z oleo: lol 2015-04-17T12:31:32Z zacts: I use sc now for such things 2015-04-17T12:31:43Z zacts: or org-mode 2015-04-17T12:31:45Z oleo: tried it with the necessary libs but somehow those libs itself didn't compile... 2015-04-17T12:32:01Z oleo: i don't use much spreadsheets actually.... 2015-04-17T12:32:05Z oleo: gnumeric is ok too.... 2015-04-17T12:34:33Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-04-17T12:34:38Z harish joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:34:42Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-04-17T12:34:42Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:35:05Z finBitPuf joined #lisp 2015-04-17T12:36:11Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-17T12:37:16Z oleo: wish you a good weekend! 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(C) Rau Le Creuset) 2015-04-17T13:28:57Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:29:42Z pranavrc quit 2015-04-17T13:31:07Z francogrex: yes compilation errors, but if I compile-file directly on the lisp file that asdf complains about it does compile to fasl without problem (that's how actually I am getting round the inability to asdf load) 2015-04-17T13:32:01Z dlowe: In my experience, that indicates a dependency problem 2015-04-17T13:32:13Z dlowe: but I don't know why it would happen from an sbcl upgrade 2015-04-17T13:32:28Z dlowe: like, something loaded is letting you compile the file after running asdf 2015-04-17T13:34:14Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-04-17T13:34:18Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:34:28Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:35:09Z sivoais_ is now known as sivoais 2015-04-17T13:35:13Z sivoais quit (Changing host) 2015-04-17T13:35:13Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:35:14Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:35:33Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:36:23Z vancan1ty_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:36:58Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-17T13:37:55Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:38:13Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:38:22Z jangle quit (Quit: jangle) 2015-04-17T13:39:00Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T13:39:13Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-17T13:39:33Z vancan1ty quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-17T13:39:42Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-17T13:40:58Z zlrth joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:41:06Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:42:12Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:44:02Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:45:30Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:45:34Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:46:31Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-17T13:46:51Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:48:50Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-17T13:49:18Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:50:12Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-17T13:50:31Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-04-17T13:51:16Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-04-17T13:51:20Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I have a not completely CL related question: did you guys know a book about making big systems controlling the complexity? 2015-04-17T15:47:00Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-04-17T15:47:10Z k-stz: digiorgi: to paraphrase SICP, "we control complexity through the invention of languages" 2015-04-17T15:47:40Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T15:48:43Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T15:49:27Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-04-17T15:50:41Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T15:51:45Z k-stz: is there an effort recording the talks at the "8th European Lisp Symposium" so they can be consumed online? 2015-04-17T15:53:11Z Shinmera: Last I asked Xof he didn't know, maybe he does now. 2015-04-17T15:54:26Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T15:54:33Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-17T15:55:14Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-04-17T15:55:48Z Xof: what 2015-04-17T15:55:59Z Xof: there will be audio and video recorders 2015-04-17T15:56:02Z zlrth joined #lisp 2015-04-17T15:56:13Z Xof: it will be an interesting exercise to see if we can actually successfully use them 2015-04-17T15:56:27Z Xof: hopefully. But no guarantees 2015-04-17T15:56:44Z Xof: (and it will be some substantial time before they're published even if everything works flawlessly) 2015-04-17T16:00:28Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2015-04-17T16:01:38Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T16:02:08Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:04:01Z wombawomba quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T16:07:00Z pjb: digiorgi: any book on software engineering should cover complexity control: modularization, coupling, dependencies, etc. 2015-04-17T16:07:53Z pjb: digiorgi: abstraction. In the case of lisp we can deal with more than one kind of abstraction. Beside data abstraction, we have functional abstractions, syntactic abstractions and metalinguistic abstractions. Indeed, check sicp. 2015-04-17T16:09:00Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:09:08Z pjb: digiorgi: also have a look at Alan Kay's current work: Alan Kay "Programming and Scaling" 2011 http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZmcmdsoAXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UOmItPa4iA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPavndhYxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9xLi0iJg1g 2015-04-17T16:09:09Z pjb: 2015-04-17T16:09:09Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T16:10:06Z pjb: digiorgi: (of course, since Alan Kay's team doesn't use Lisp, they spend a lot of time dealing with scanners, parsers, and stuff that we can do without in lisp, but the fundamental principle is sound). 2015-04-17T16:18:04Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:19:44Z FernandoBasso joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:20:06Z s1n4 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T16:20:19Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-04-17T16:22:51Z DruidGreeneyes joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:23:08Z onembk joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:24:11Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-17T16:27:40Z hekmek joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:31:45Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:31:50Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:31:58Z Fare: pjb: but they did awesome stuff this way, such as parsing the RFCs to produce TCP/IP layer with correct-by-design state machines. 2015-04-17T16:32:00Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T16:32:11Z kvsari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T16:33:38Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-17T16:34:23Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:34:24Z ehu quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-17T16:34:42Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:37:09Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-17T16:37:37Z hekmek quit (Quit: hekmek) 2015-04-17T16:39:46Z nopf quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T16:40:56Z nopf joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:43:30Z pjb: Fare: Oh, I don't say that's a bad approach. I worked on parsers for the X11 and the POSIX specification to do something similar (projects on hold :-/). But for DSL inside your program, you can do without using consistently SEXPs. 2015-04-17T16:43:53Z wwwBUKOLAYcom  2015-04-17T16:49:08Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:49:59Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:51:17Z joneshf-laptop quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T16:52:42Z nopf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T16:53:56Z nopf joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:55:42Z jcabmin joined #lisp 2015-04-17T16:57:04Z wwwBUKOLAYcom quit 2015-04-17T16:57:21Z Fare: pjb: sometimes, it makes sense to have parser for your DSL, for conciseness and readability 2015-04-17T16:57:32Z Fare: e.g. regex with quadruple \\\\ 2015-04-17T16:59:58Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:00:13Z Xach: Hmm, trying to think of CL implementations since 2010. So far I'm thinking Clasp, Mezzano, MKCL, MOCL...can you think of some others? 2015-04-17T17:01:08Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T17:01:16Z zlrth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-17T17:01:56Z pjb: sicl soon. 2015-04-17T17:03:43Z onembk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T17:03:56Z drmeist__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T17:04:11Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:04:40Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-17T17:05:52Z guicho: Fare: I read about cl-launch on reddit and start using it. I am suffering a large (2-3sec) bootstrap time in the +2th execution of the script with --dump option, compared to resuming from the image saved by sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die. What would be the cause of it, am I making mistakes in the script? or is it necessary? 2015-04-17T17:07:45Z guicho: I'd like to hear about a known pitfall. 2015-04-17T17:10:37Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T17:11:04Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:12:31Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-17T17:12:38Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T17:14:18Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:14:46Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:16:36Z nopf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-17T17:18:09Z nopf joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:19:40Z jasom: brucem: so if you were curious, all of the functions declared as (foo,...) end up in the FUNCTION_TABLE_iii table, so generating a lookup to that table was correct 2015-04-17T17:25:27Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:25:56Z tajjada joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:29:42Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T17:31:17Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T17:31:22Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:33:13Z Fare: guicho: this is a known issue :-/ 2015-04-17T17:33:39Z Fare: wait, --dump should have no startup delay 2015-04-17T17:33:52Z Fare: WITHOUT --dump, a 2s startup delay is a known issue 2015-04-17T17:34:01Z Fare: --dump DOES do a save-lisp-and-die 2015-04-17T17:34:18Z guicho: yes, it should be like so 2015-04-17T17:34:42Z Fare: guicho: are you experiencing a delay *WITH* --dump ? 2015-04-17T17:34:58Z guicho: my shebang is sth like #!/usr/local/bin/cl -Q -L util.lisp --dump .timelimit -p bigtable -E init 2015-04-17T17:35:03Z Fare: oh 2015-04-17T17:35:09Z Fare: that's not how --dump works 2015-04-17T17:35:12Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:35:17Z Fare: --dump, you do it ONCE, and it creates an executable 2015-04-17T17:35:28Z Fare: and then you can use said executable without a delay 2015-04-17T17:35:46Z Fare: so remove --dump from the shebang 2015-04-17T17:37:02Z guicho: if I launch the script, it does not show the dumping message like [undoing binding stack and other enclosing state... done] 2015-04-17T17:37:02Z guicho: 2015-04-17T17:37:39Z guicho: if I launch teh script more than twice, in the later call [prevous post] 2015-04-17T17:37:58Z guicho: so I thought it automatically loads the dumped image 2015-04-17T17:38:26Z tajjada quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T17:39:07Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:39:17Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T17:39:19Z guicho: I like it if dumping an image is transparent to the user 2015-04-17T17:41:30Z guicho: just like forcing a thunk 2015-04-17T17:43:43Z Fare: no, that can't be made transparent 2015-04-17T17:44:12Z Fare: not unless we have some kind of daemon running in the background that's ready to say that the script is up-to-date and such 2015-04-17T17:44:17Z Fare: the image 2015-04-17T17:44:39Z Fare: and/or that will run the code in the context you want 2015-04-17T17:44:39Z foom: Fare: I think you should call that daemon common-lisp-controller. 2015-04-17T17:44:52Z Fare: foom: I'll call it that, but I won't write it. 2015-04-17T17:45:19Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-04-17T17:45:39Z foom: It's already written! Just go dig out some broken deleted code from 10 years ago and call it a day! 2015-04-17T17:45:40Z guicho: why would that be necessary? I might think of just cheking the timestamp like MAKE does 2015-04-17T17:46:24Z foom: guicho: because there's lots of context for the execution of a program. 2015-04-17T17:46:40Z foom: guicho: it's difficult to know when it's appropriate to cache the result from one to that of another, automatically. 2015-04-17T17:47:00Z Fare: I discuss how common-lisp-controller could be resurrected in my post http://fare.livejournal.com/184127.html — but that's more coding than I'm willing to do at the moment. Other people are welcome to do it. Not that there's been much of a debian common lisp community in the last 5 years (or more?) 2015-04-17T17:47:28Z Fare: guicho: loading the "make" functionality is precisely what's causing the 2s delay 2015-04-17T17:47:40Z dlowe: note that shebang #! only interprets the line as a command and two arguments. 2015-04-17T17:48:19Z dlowe: so #!cl -Q -L util.lisp gets executed as ("cl" "-Q" "-L util.lisp") 2015-04-17T17:48:26Z foom: command and *one* arg 2015-04-17T17:48:41Z dlowe: oh, that's right. 2015-04-17T17:48:50Z Fare: i.e. loading asdf (twice if upgraded), walking the source registry (unless you're using the cl-source-registry-cache script), then checking all timestamps for all transitive dependencies... that takes time 2015-04-17T17:49:21Z Fare: cl-launch does heroics to allow multiple args on your #!/usr/bin/cl command line 2015-04-17T17:49:30Z Fare: on BSD, a shim is required. 2015-04-17T17:49:45Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-04-17T17:50:43Z guicho: cl-launch does heroics<< yes, I can guess from what the stack trace is saying about (set-dispatch-character #\# #\! ...) 2015-04-17T17:51:21Z Fare: once the image is dumped, no more heroics required. 2015-04-17T17:51:57Z guicho: is it using asdf to process -L -supplied source files? 2015-04-17T17:52:22Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:52:32Z Fare: yes, it has to, so that timestamps are used properly 2015-04-17T17:54:13Z Fare: old versions of cl-launch skipped asdf for that. Newer versions of cl-launch just rely on uiop, anyway, so are pulling asdf with it (most implementations don't provide uiop separately) 2015-04-17T17:55:11Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T17:55:12Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:56:42Z swedishfish joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:56:49Z swedishfish left #lisp 2015-04-17T17:57:23Z clop: is there a convenient/elegant way to capture everything written to a stream, and everything read from a stream (for debugging)? 2015-04-17T17:57:48Z guicho: echo-stream 2015-04-17T17:57:56Z Fare: clop: with a broadcast-stream 2015-04-17T17:58:01Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-04-17T17:58:14Z Fare: that you pipe into a log 2015-04-17T17:58:26Z clop: !! that looks perfect 2015-04-17T17:59:25Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-17T17:59:36Z futpib quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T18:00:07Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:01:06Z guicho: I think broadcast-stream can be used for capturing the output, while echo-stream can be used for capturing the input. 2015-04-17T18:01:53Z Fare: while writing a tthsum in cl (trivial wrapper around ironclad), I found that there's no easy way to get a binary variant of standard-input 2015-04-17T18:03:03Z Fare: I tried to open /dev/fd/0, and found that most lisps are confused by it being an apparent symlink 2015-04-17T18:04:37Z pjb: Fare: IIRC, in some implementations, you can set the stream element type of *standard-input* 2015-04-17T18:05:22Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:05:23Z guicho: /dev/fd/0 << it also depends on the OS and how OPEN is implemented in the filesystem under /dev/. CCL can open it on Mac but not on linux. 2015-04-17T18:05:30Z pjb: Notably when it's redirected from a file. It may be harder to do when it's hooked to a pty. 2015-04-17T18:06:02Z flash- joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:10:17Z zlrth joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:13:20Z guicho: Re: cl-launch again, I still feel good if it has automatic dump&update feature with a flag. 2015-04-17T18:14:22Z Fare: in any case, I initially expected it to be a portable solution at least to all implementations on linux and/or bsd, but then found that since CL wants the stream to know its truename and implementations believe the lies or the /proc filesystem, it actually doesn't work 2015-04-17T18:14:24Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T18:16:25Z guicho: but with a more or less lightweight and fast dependency checking. 2015-04-17T18:17:24Z Fare: guicho: I accept patches 2015-04-17T18:18:04Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T18:18:20Z Fare: one possible solution: you dump an image, and when you start it, you have it check whether it's up to date 2015-04-17T18:18:47Z guicho: Fare: patches<< yes, and my problem is I am unfamilier with GitLab 2015-04-17T18:19:01Z Fare: that's the least of your problems 2015-04-17T18:19:33Z mj-0 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T18:19:42Z Fare: the real problem is that checking whether you're up to date is expensive, especially if you want to check not just the files you used, but also the maybe new .asd files in the source-registry that you haven't used 2015-04-17T18:20:17Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-04-17T18:20:23Z guicho: haven't used << implicitly, right? 2015-04-17T18:20:35Z guicho: or different -S? 2015-04-17T18:20:47Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T18:21:55Z Fare: same -S, new .asd in same or earlier tree 2015-04-17T18:24:14Z guicho: I am thinking about a greedier method. 2015-04-17T18:24:46Z Fare: if the user uses the cl-source-registry-cache, then it's cheaper — but then the user has to become administrator and not forget to update the cache 2015-04-17T18:25:29Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:25:42Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-04-17T18:25:54Z Fare: if you go crazy, you have a demon listen to inotify events 2015-04-17T18:26:21Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:26:44Z xinau joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:26:58Z guicho: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Caching-Results.html 2015-04-17T18:27:28Z guicho: "when recursing into a directory declared by :tree" <<-- which :tree is it? 2015-04-17T18:28:43Z jcabmin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T18:30:33Z guicho: sorry I found the answer by myself. 2015-04-17T18:30:34Z jasom: guicho: in the DSL for defining where ASDF searches for systems 2015-04-17T18:31:49Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-17T18:33:44Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:35:09Z blt joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:35:22Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:35:55Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-04-17T18:43:02Z work joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:43:02Z work quit (Changing host) 2015-04-17T18:43:02Z work joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:43:06Z guicho: rather than caching the database, I may try a probabilistic strategy with runtime constraints... 2015-04-17T18:43:22Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:43:33Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:43:41Z Fare: what's that??? 2015-04-17T18:43:42Z blt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T18:44:06Z blt joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:44:15Z dim: it smells a lot like an heuristic 2015-04-17T18:45:17Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Quit: My legs are OK) 2015-04-17T18:45:51Z guicho: allowing the user to specify the maximum time to update the info, then randomize the order of checking the dependency. dependency checking is similar to SAT. I might even try Luby's restart schedule if the max time is not provided. 2015-04-17T18:46:16Z guicho: but just an idea. 2015-04-17T18:46:37Z Fare: sounds ugly 2015-04-17T18:47:15Z Fare: here's an idea: have a flag that always trusts the executable if it's dumped 2015-04-17T18:47:47Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:48:06Z guicho: Fare: adding such a flag itself is a great improvement. but I want to go further. 2015-04-17T18:48:09Z Fare: the user can run cl-launch with --update to force the update 2015-04-17T18:48:18Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:48:34Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T18:48:43Z guicho: a flag which trust the image == (timelimit = infinity). 2015-04-17T18:49:06Z Fare: what if the image was trustworthy? you touch its timestamp? 2015-04-17T18:49:41Z Fare: another constraint is to keep things simple. If it's too complex, and you don't have an automated test suite... ouch 2015-04-17T18:49:57Z Fare: cl-launch's automated test suite is already behind in terms of features tested 2015-04-17T18:50:07Z Fare: though it admittedly tests the hard part 2015-04-17T18:50:44Z guicho: if the image was trustworthy, then we can use --update, which, if implemented, would be an alias to timelimit = infinity. 2015-04-17T18:50:51Z blt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T18:51:16Z blt joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:51:22Z guicho: test suite is already behind < ouch. 2015-04-17T18:52:03Z Fare: well, what about you first implement the image and update — then we can see about more fancy tests 2015-04-17T18:52:16Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:52:18Z Fare: and if you can add this feature to the test suite... great 2015-04-17T18:55:42Z guicho: it would definitely go that way. 2015-04-17T18:55:56Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:56:36Z jangle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-04-17T18:57:09Z blt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T18:57:35Z blt joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:57:52Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T18:58:53Z BRPocock joined #lisp 2015-04-17T18:59:04Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T19:01:38Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-17T19:01:43Z kori quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T19:01:52Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-04-17T19:03:43Z blt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T19:03:59Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T19:04:07Z blt joined #lisp 2015-04-17T19:05:13Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'm starting a new project and I think I'll replace css-lite with it :) 2015-04-17T19:53:13Z bryand joined #lisp 2015-04-17T19:53:31Z jangle joined #lisp 2015-04-17T19:53:44Z Shinmera: Glad to hear. 2015-04-17T19:53:59Z Shinmera: Let me know if you encounter any problems or inconveniences with it. 2015-04-17T19:54:16Z axion: Shinmera: btw, which xml dsl do you recommend? 2015-04-17T19:54:21Z bryand quit (Client Quit) 2015-04-17T19:54:43Z zlrth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-04-17T19:54:43Z axion: I have used sexml in the past...but this was years ago. I'm not really sure what's available these days. Cliki is a bit outdated in that area 2015-04-17T19:54:50Z Shinmera: I'm not sure what you're referring to... things like CL-WHO? 2015-04-17T19:55:12Z axion: that's more of a templating system. I mean outputting html with sexp's 2015-04-17T19:55:41Z Shinmera: I don't use any system like that, so I can't tell you. 2015-04-17T19:55:52Z axion: Ah ok. What DO you use for html? 2015-04-17T19:56:01Z Shinmera: I use Clip, mostly. 2015-04-17T19:56:06Z axion: link? 2015-04-17T19:56:13Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/clip/ 2015-04-17T19:56:51Z axion: hmm thanks 2015-04-17T19:57:21Z Shinmera: I just like having my "plain" HTML, but it's definitely not for everyone. 2015-04-17T19:57:47Z gnuian joined #lisp 2015-04-17T19:58:20Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147181 2015-04-17T19:58:33Z axion: I have used sexml in the past. (<:html (<:body (<:p "hello"))) for example 2015-04-17T20:00:21Z kori quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-04-17T20:00:47Z axion: Shinmera: do you have any libraries for AJAX? been using cl-smackjack...but i don't really like it 2015-04-17T20:00:59Z Shinmera: No, I minimise JS as much as I can. 2015-04-17T20:01:24Z A205B064 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:01:35Z Shinmera: And for what I do need, I just write plain JS with jQuery. 2015-04-17T20:01:44Z axion: Yeah, I'm trying to integrate my game to the web, so something that works good would be useful 2015-04-17T20:02:12Z zlrth joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:02:43Z snorresvendsen joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:03:45Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:04:19Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T20:04:20Z blt joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:04:35Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:06:21Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:06:33Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-04-17T20:06:56Z snorresvendsen left #lisp 2015-04-17T20:08:15Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:10:44Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:10:46Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:11:35Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:11:49Z FernandoBasso quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T20:12:49Z blt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T20:13:13Z blt joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:13:46Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-04-17T20:13:46Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:14:10Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:16:38Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T20:18:43Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T20:18:56Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:19:36Z blt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T20:20:04Z blt joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:20:53Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:21:56Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T20:23:31Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-04-17T20:23:34Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T20:25:11Z emaczen: jackdaniel: Are you there? 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-04-17T22:53:51Z jasom: axion: cl-who is outputting html with sexps 2015-04-17T22:54:04Z jasom: axion: at least that's what I use it for 2015-04-17T22:54:31Z jasom: axion: if everything is known at compile-time it will reduce down to a single print 2015-04-17T22:56:14Z jasom: axion: and for ajax, I just use a vanilla JS request with JSON as the payload 2015-04-17T22:56:26Z jasom: cl-json and yason each have their strengths and weaknesses as far as JSON parsing 2015-04-17T22:59:14Z jasom: a big issue is they both prefer alists to hash-tables (which is really dumb since it's much easier at encode time to require JSON objects to be hash-tables) and "nil" in lisp maps to 3 distinct JSON items 2015-04-17T22:59:57Z jasom should write a json parsing library 2015-04-17T23:00:19Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T23:00:38Z axion: jasom: yeah, i don't really like that library. i am somewhat happy with sexml, but i havent used it in a good 3-4 years, so thought maybe there were other alternatives these days 2015-04-17T23:00:40Z jasom: I ran into all these issues with my tnetstring library and came up with what I feel to be fairly simple solutions 2015-04-17T23:01:07Z jasom: axion: I learned cl-who about 5 years ago and have never had any problems with it, so didn't explore out 2015-04-17T23:01:25Z axion: it's a lispy as you can get imo, just using a < package that outputs items from a given DTD 2015-04-17T23:01:28Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:02:25Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:04:24Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:04:58Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-04-17T23:08:11Z monod quit (Quit: quittly) 2015-04-17T23:17:33Z jocuman joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:18:09Z Pastaf quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-04-17T23:18:32Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:23:18Z Xach: nooo 2015-04-17T23:23:30Z admg quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-04-17T23:23:32Z sword` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T23:27:22Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:31:25Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:31:29Z jasom: Xach: who was the extra-long "no" directed at? 2015-04-17T23:31:59Z Xach: no more json parsing libraries 2015-04-17T23:32:03Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-04-17T23:32:07Z Xach: 8 is enough 2015-04-17T23:33:13Z Bike: what if i have a library that's a javascript interpreter and it parses json by eval 2015-04-17T23:33:23Z pillton: I think we need another test framework. One whose title or documentation doesn't contain "Yet Another". 2015-04-17T23:33:44Z jangle joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:33:45Z zlrth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-17T23:34:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: Xach is right. We need another format to replace JSON. 2015-04-17T23:34:43Z pillton: Doesn't the script tag in HTML have a language attribute? 2015-04-17T23:34:58Z Bike: sure. 2015-04-17T23:35:11Z Bike: back when i learned html you sometimes put language="vbscript" 2015-04-17T23:35:55Z Stratege____ joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:36:21Z pillton: So, instead of targeting javascript, why don't we consider changing the browsers to support common lisp? 2015-04-17T23:36:21Z White_Flame: nowadays it's type="text/javascript" 2015-04-17T23:36:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: pillton, You'd have to convince them all at the same. 2015-04-17T23:37:00Z Xach: why not boil the ocean? 2015-04-17T23:37:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: race condition 2015-04-17T23:37:20Z White_Flame: Does GNU have a browser project? They're already technically standardized on scheme 2015-04-17T23:37:22Z Stratege___ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-04-17T23:37:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: I think firefox is the de facto "free" browser. 2015-04-17T23:37:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: your mileage may vary 2015-04-17T23:38:06Z axion: gnu's browser is a fork of mozilla iirc 2015-04-17T23:38:14Z jpanest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-04-17T23:38:22Z White_Flame: axion: so then I presume they don't have guile embedded 2015-04-17T23:38:54Z axion: does guile have any lisp2's these days? 2015-04-17T23:38:55Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:39:57Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-04-17T23:40:53Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:41:45Z pillton: Petit_Dejeuner: The browser implementations do not implement Flash nor do they implement Silverlight. 2015-04-17T23:43:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: Are you going to ask people to download a plugin they've never heard of? 2015-04-17T23:43:18Z jasom: Xach: there are 8? I only found 2 last time I looked 2015-04-17T23:43:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: What are you going to use that plugin for? 2015-04-17T23:43:27Z axion: that's because they're not open, and they moved onto html5 video 2015-04-17T23:43:28Z jasom: Xach: they both sucked, so I'm willing to look at the others 2015-04-17T23:43:42Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:43:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: Did that html5 DRM thing ever get sorted out? 2015-04-17T23:44:04Z jasom: and by sucked I mean didn't work the way I wanted; they weren't actually bad (and one was kind-of-sort-of customizable) 2015-04-17T23:44:12Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: yes, Mozilla decided to allow DRM 2015-04-17T23:44:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: lame 2015-04-17T23:44:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:50:59Z Guest77452 joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:51:43Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-04-17T23:52:57Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-04-17T23:55:24Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-04-17T23:55:27Z jfe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T23:55:59Z Guest77452 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T23:57:37Z Xach: jasom: yason, cl-json, jsown, jonathan, and i think a few more 2015-04-17T23:57:40Z gnuian quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-04-17T23:58:49Z bdowning quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-04-17T23:59:22Z Xach: st-json, com.gigamonkeys.json 2015-04-17T23:59:30Z Xach: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries