2015-04-16T00:00:28Z Slothel: I guess it all hinges on those logs though. When i get home from work I'll look those over and then go from there. So frustrating, all I wanted to do was use gnus and add some rss feeds and work on my lisp tutorial
2015-04-16T00:00:29Z Slothel: :(
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2015-04-16T00:01:42Z axion: yeah that would be a good first step. and yes, radeon driver acts strange and crashes X under weird circumstances
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2015-04-16T01:41:23Z pillton has 500 instances of SBCL running simultaneously.
2015-04-16T01:41:35Z zacts: pillton: wow, that's sweet
2015-04-16T01:41:40Z zacts: what are they running for?
2015-04-16T01:42:03Z pillton: Running an experiment.
2015-04-16T01:42:14Z zacts: oh cool
2015-04-16T01:42:21Z zacts: are they on multiple machines?
2015-04-16T01:42:50Z pillton: I don't know. A scheduler finds machines for me.
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2015-04-16T02:41:13Z viaken: That sounds fun/interesting.
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2015-04-16T03:24:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-04-16T03:25:06Z linux_dream: hello
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2015-04-16T03:26:55Z loke: hello
2015-04-16T03:28:07Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-04-16T03:40:04Z zacts: hello
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2015-04-16T03:43:17Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2015-04-16T03:43:39Z drmeister: Hey - I got exception handling to work now and I'm back trying to compile stuff with CClasp.
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2015-04-16T03:44:28Z beach: drmeister: Excellent!
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2015-04-16T03:44:45Z drmeister: beach: I've got to get to bed soon but I had some questions before I go.
2015-04-16T03:45:05Z drmeister: I'm compiling slime and asdf and running into some issues that may or may not be problems.
2015-04-16T03:46:47Z drmeister: I have (defmethod cleavir-environment:macro-function (symbol (environment clasp-global-environment)) (core:macro-function symbol))
2015-04-16T03:47:18Z drmeister: Then I compile slime and it tells me it wants:
2015-04-16T03:47:23Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/pt7VJ18N
2015-04-16T03:47:45Z drmeister: I had the same thing for  cleavir-environment:symbol-macro-expansion
2015-04-16T03:48:11Z drmeister: and cleavir-env:function-info and cleavir-env:variable-info
2015-04-16T03:48:19Z drmeister: Is this a problem or just an annoyance?
2015-04-16T03:48:31Z beach: It appears the second argument to MACRO-FUNCTION is NULL where it should be an environment.
2015-04-16T03:48:59Z drmeister: Right, is that something I'm doing wrong?
2015-04-16T03:49:18Z beach: Hard to tell.  I need to know who is calling it like that.
2015-04-16T03:51:02Z drmeister: Here's what a backtrace looks like (I miss debugging support (sigh)):
2015-04-16T03:51:08Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/jePOLgDM
2015-04-16T03:52:31Z beach: Top of stack is at the bottom of the backtrace?
2015-04-16T03:52:37Z drmeister: Frame 63?  maybe? - but it's the SWANK-LOADER package.
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2015-04-16T03:53:52Z drmeister: Yeah - I get a lot of flack for that.   It's because I worked with a primitive terminal repl a lot early on.
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2015-04-16T03:54:50Z beach: I can't figure out what is calling MACRO-FUNCTION.
2015-04-16T03:55:15Z drmeister: (sigh) Neither can I in this case - backtraces are almost useless.
2015-04-16T03:55:35Z beach: Maybe we should work on source tracking before anything else.
2015-04-16T03:58:29Z drmeister jumps up and down excitedly
2015-04-16T03:59:54Z drmeister: I've got a reader set up to generate source info and weak-hash-table(s) ready to go.
2015-04-16T04:00:53Z beach: Good to know.
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2015-04-16T04:06:20Z beach: The part of it managed by Cleavir should be easy enough.
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2015-04-16T04:07:22Z drmeister: Would we be annotating every AST node and instruction or inserting source information into the AST or what?
2015-04-16T04:07:23Z beach: ... Just use the protocol I already designed, and carry over information from AST to HIR.
2015-04-16T04:07:36Z drmeister: What was the protocol again?
2015-04-16T04:07:43Z beach: I need to dig it up.
2015-04-16T04:07:46Z drmeister: It was one function.
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2015-04-16T04:09:31Z beach: The tricky part is what to do with things like symbols, numbers, and characters.
2015-04-16T04:09:52Z beach: But I guess that's not a problem for Cleavir.
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2015-04-16T04:11:24Z smokeink: when i quickload a package that depends on ironclad, i get this error USE-PACKAGE #<PACKAGE "IRONCLAD"> causes name-conflicts in
2015-04-16T04:11:27Z smokeink: #<PACKAGE "CL-SIMPLEJWT"> between the following symbols: IRONCLAD:NULL, COMMON-LISP:NUL
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2015-04-16T04:12:11Z smokeink: did anyone encounter sth like this before?
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2015-04-16T04:13:28Z beach: smokeink: Someone is :USE-ing a package that they shouldn't.
2015-04-16T04:15:21Z beach: smokeink: I am guessing the package CL-SIMPLEJWT has a :USE "IRONCLAD" in it.
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2015-04-16T04:16:40Z smokeink: true
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2015-04-16T04:20:52Z jasom: It seems slightly unneeded for ironclad to export a symbol named NULL
2015-04-16T04:21:19Z beach: smokeink: And since the IRONCLAD package apparently has a symbol named NULL in it, there is a clash when CL-SIMPLEJWT tries to :USE both that package and the COMMON-LISP package.
2015-04-16T04:21:50Z smokeink: hmm got it :)
2015-04-16T04:22:03Z jasom: smokeink: you can import just the symbols you will use from ironclad
2015-04-16T04:22:10Z smokeink: yes
2015-04-16T04:22:33Z beach: smokeink: The author of CL-SIMPLEJWT should not have done a :USE.
2015-04-16T04:22:42Z beach: ... of IRONCLAD.
2015-04-16T04:22:53Z smokeink: haha, yes.. the author is me
2015-04-16T04:23:00Z jasom is guessing smokeink is the author
2015-04-16T04:23:11Z beach: smokeink: It is a very bad idea to :USE packages that you don't control.
2015-04-16T04:23:26Z smokeink: it's the first time i try to make a package
2015-04-16T04:23:30Z jasom: I will disagree with beach here
2015-04-16T04:23:41Z jasom: I :use alexandria all the time, for example
2015-04-16T04:23:57Z beach: jasom: Just because you are doing it doesn't mean it is a good idea.
2015-04-16T04:24:21Z jasom: beach: the fact that I do it is an indication that I disagree that it's a bad idea.
2015-04-16T04:24:54Z H4ns`: it is generally good advice to tell people not to :use random packages
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2015-04-16T04:25:43Z beach: Yeah, because when they do, they get name conflicts, and then they show up here asking for help.
2015-04-16T04:25:50Z jasom: I think in this case, it's needless to :use ironclad since it likely needs only the signatures
2015-04-16T04:27:03Z jasom: I should also point out, that the implementation of anything other than a hash function in ironclad should be considered insecure
2015-04-16T04:28:06Z smokeink: why
2015-04-16T04:28:39Z jasom: because crypto is hard, and ironclad was only meant as a proof-of-concept/exercise for the author
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2015-04-16T04:29:25Z jasom: It is possible that the signature generation is secure, if it uses the OS's entropy source; signature verification is likely going to be vulnerable to timing attacks though
2015-04-16T04:29:43Z beach: smokeink: Even if :USE succeeds, the following can happen: The author of the IRONCLAD package decides to add some functionality, and therefore to EXPORT some more symbols in the future.  Then your software breaks without your having modified a single thing.
2015-04-16T04:30:31Z smokeink: so do we have a more secure crypto library available?
2015-04-16T04:30:40Z H4ns: smokeink: OpenSSL
2015-04-16T04:31:33Z Bike: doomed as usual.
2015-04-16T04:31:56Z smokeink: then i'm gonna switch to openssl
2015-04-16T04:31:57Z H4ns: a library is not automatically more secure because it is written in a different programming language
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2015-04-16T04:32:23Z H4ns: more secure than a different, well-reviewed one like OpenSSL that is
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2015-04-16T04:32:38Z jasom: openssl is starting to become well-reviewed now
2015-04-16T04:32:57Z jasom: and I expect that it will get improved much faster than ironclad
2015-04-16T04:33:50Z jasom: smokeink: cl+ssl is the openssl bindings
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2015-04-16T04:37:04Z jasom: "more secure" is kind of a weird term anyway; for a given threat-model security is largely binary, so "more secure" really only means "secure for a larger set of threat models"
2015-04-16T04:37:55Z pillton: We really need to get support for package nicknames to be coupled to the reader rather than the package object.
2015-04-16T04:45:18Z jasom: I would like a special-variable that controls interning in the reader; then package-nicknames could be implemented as easily as named-readtables
2015-04-16T04:45:48Z pillton: Yeah. That would do.
2015-04-16T04:45:55Z Slothel: People who write apis and libraries need to be clear in their documentation how many levels of abstraction a specific method
2015-04-16T04:45:57Z Slothel: is at
2015-04-16T04:46:10Z Slothel: And perhaps include some sort of reference to the actual implementation
2015-04-16T04:46:37Z jasom: Slothel: for information like that, I tend to rely on M-.
2015-04-16T04:46:52Z pillton: How many levels of abstraction?
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2015-04-16T05:17:39Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-04-16T05:19:07Z beach: Hello jackdaniel
2015-04-16T05:19:15Z pillton: G'day jackdaniel.
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2015-04-16T05:28:15Z loke: Perhaps one package per abstraction level?
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2015-04-16T05:31:37Z beach: Slothel: I have the same question as pillton.  How do you count the number of levels of abstraction?
2015-04-16T05:32:10Z jasom: beach: 1, 2, 3 ...
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2015-04-16T05:32:13Z jasom ducks
2015-04-16T05:32:47Z jasom: I actually wasn't sure what he meant by that either
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2015-04-16T05:41:46Z Slothel: I just meant the number of calls to get to the actual implementation of the function
2015-04-16T05:41:57Z Slothel: possibly more clear in a c++ context than lisp
2015-04-16T05:42:31Z beach: Slothel: For the API, the answer should always be 1.
2015-04-16T05:42:33Z Slothel: you might have a call that is a wrapper for a wrapper for a wrapper for a function
2015-04-16T05:42:50Z pillton: Ah, the p-impl pattern.
2015-04-16T05:42:56Z pillton dies a little.
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2015-04-16T05:44:34Z Slothel: Yes, I've encountered this particular issue mostly when dealing with c++ or java
2015-04-16T05:44:41Z Slothel: java in particular is infuriating this way
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2015-04-16T05:45:48Z beach: Slothel: May i suggest you use Common Lisp instead of Java, then.
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2015-04-16T05:46:17Z Slothel: beach: I have to use whatever languages I'm told to, at my place of work.
2015-04-16T05:46:28Z Slothel: beach: Lisp is for home :)
2015-04-16T05:47:17Z beach: Doing what you are told is overrated.
2015-04-16T05:47:53Z Slothel: As is food and a place to live :/
2015-04-16T05:48:18Z zacts: Slothel: that's bs
2015-04-16T05:48:37Z zacts: you don't have to program crap to have food and a place to live
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2015-04-16T05:51:41Z jasom: my plan is to hold my nose and do what I'm told until I've saved enough to do what I want part-time.  ~15 years left.
2015-04-16T05:52:48Z pillton: Slothel: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/tPR6REHNuyE%5B276-300%5D
2015-04-16T05:53:15Z pillton thanks Xach for http://xach.livejournal.com/221433.html
2015-04-16T05:53:19Z zacts: I wish google never took over usenet
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2015-04-16T05:53:34Z zacts: or at least, I wish google had a more sane interface to it
2015-04-16T05:53:51Z beach: jasom: What happens in 15 years?
2015-04-16T05:54:14Z jasom: beach: I will have enough saved away to switch to a much lower paying job
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2015-04-16T05:54:43Z beach: I see.
2015-04-16T05:55:59Z Slothel: I guess technically I don't have to program crap for a place to live, but it beats doing something else.
2015-04-16T05:56:10Z beach: Slothel: A large part of the time, it is enough to make them believe you are doing what you are told.
2015-04-16T05:56:27Z zacts: Slothel: you need to learn to slack more
2015-04-16T05:56:36Z zacts: I mean that's what corporate structures want anyway
2015-04-16T05:56:43Z zacts: busy workers doing absolutely nothing
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2015-04-16T05:57:26Z zacts: anyway, I was quite happy in many ways when I was homeless, and I realized that I'm never going to buy into the corporate bs in the world. So here I am.
2015-04-16T05:57:49Z beach: Since they can't tell the difference between 2 developers with a factor 20 difference in productivity, it suffices to be top productive and work 2 hours a week for them.
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2015-04-16T05:59:44Z Slothel: I'll keep it in mind of course, but I'd feel a certain repulsion at doing nothing and getting paid for it
2015-04-16T06:00:02Z beach: Even someone with average productivity can easily take a day or two per week for more interesting stuff.  During that time, it is interesting to use Common Lisp for some work-related stuff.  With some luck they will see the light.
2015-04-16T06:00:03Z Slothel: Either way I should only have to work here until my student loans are paid off, then I can buy intot he startup fairy tale and try to do my own thing
2015-04-16T06:01:08Z zacts: whatevs
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2015-04-16T06:01:37Z beach: Slothel: I would say the exact opposite.  Given the sad state of the software industry, it is your obligation to the share holders to take a day or two per week for research, testing stuff, trying out new tools and languages.  Management people care about keeping their jobs, not about what's good for the company.
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2015-04-16T06:04:54Z pillton: You are part of a profession. Everyone has to do that stuff.
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2015-04-16T06:05:13Z zacts: dude, haven't you guys ever read dilbert?
2015-04-16T06:05:32Z zacts: lot's of lessons to be learned there
2015-04-16T06:05:45Z jackdaniel: I was thinking about problem of releasing stuff when it's done, therefore doubt of people, if project is still dead. Instead of making new release each month (which idea I dislike), I've came with idea to make a news rss stream - ECL monthly, and regularily post on it *stuff*, like current works or new tutorials. What do you think about it?
2015-04-16T06:05:49Z beach: pillton: Was that for me?
2015-04-16T06:06:05Z pillton: No. I was reinforcing your point.
2015-04-16T06:06:11Z beach: Got it.
2015-04-16T06:06:23Z jasom: jackdaniel: makes sense
2015-04-16T06:06:59Z jackdaniel: or dumb "We're still alive." message ^_^
2015-04-16T06:07:24Z Slothel: Mostly I'm just still a bit surprised at the contrast between how much I enjoyed CS in school and how much I hate what Im doing now
2015-04-16T06:07:32Z Slothel: but it pays the bills
2015-04-16T06:07:41Z Slothel: I still get to do what I want when on my offtime
2015-04-16T06:07:56Z Slothel: Which right now happens to be learning lisp
2015-04-16T06:08:08Z jasom: jackdaniel: It all depends on your development pace.  If you will fix any bugs or add any complete features on a monthly basis, it makes sense to do a monthly release, as a chainge to the version will get it updated in package managers, and you'll see any unpredicted negative effects sooner
2015-04-16T06:08:51Z pillton: beach: There are two things I remember from the keynote at my graduation ceremony. The responsibilities that come from being part of profession and that rubbish/garbage is a result of a lack of imagination.
2015-04-16T06:09:00Z jasom: I don't actually hate what I'm doing now; I just don't really like it either.
2015-04-16T06:09:07Z beach: Slothel: In that case, you should apply for a scholarship to study at the next level.
2015-04-16T06:09:18Z jackdaniel: jasom: yes, but making releases, when you have only minor commit ready (rest is wip), would be awful as well
2015-04-16T06:09:30Z beach: pillton: Interesting.
2015-04-16T06:10:05Z beach: pillton: That is very insightful.
2015-04-16T06:10:39Z jasom: jackdaniel: this is what having a separate release and testing/integration branch is for; merge the complete features back, push off the not-ready ones.
2015-04-16T06:10:40Z jackdaniel: hence I want to make simple stream and force myself to write a few sentences every month
2015-04-16T06:11:16Z jackdaniel: jasom: yes, develop branch is such a branch on ecl
2015-04-16T06:11:35Z jasom: jackdaniel: "man 7 gitworkflows" for what the linux kernel uses
2015-04-16T06:11:48Z Slothel: beach: I'd love to do a PHD. Really, but I don't think I'm ready. I want to go into Theory, but I'm not sure my mathematics are up to par yet
2015-04-16T06:11:57Z jasom: it's probably overkill for a project as (comparably) small as ecl, but a subset might make sense
2015-04-16T06:11:58Z Slothel: Basically what I've been doing is using this job to survive while studying as much as I can
2015-04-16T06:12:26Z jackdaniel: jasom: basically i follow this: http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
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2015-04-16T06:13:19Z jasom: jackdaniel: I've used that; it has the issue that there isn't a branch that integrates all of the feature branches, (i.e. a separate branch from "what is in the next release" and "all the features we are working on that may or may not be ready for the next release"
2015-04-16T06:13:20Z jackdaniel: it's simple, clean and effective imo
2015-04-16T06:13:57Z jasom: e.g. on mongrel2 (which uses this) I have at least one feature branch that isn't merged with develop, as it needs more testing, and I wanted to do a release without it
2015-04-16T06:14:39Z jackdaniel: hmm, I consider all stuff merged into develop being tested and ready for next release. For untested features there are their own branches, and experimental branch
2015-04-16T06:14:48Z jackdaniel: ie android support is on experimental one
2015-04-16T06:15:07Z jasom: jackdaniel: ah, you have an experimental branch; that's good.  that's not part of git-flow but necessary
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2015-04-16T06:15:19Z jackdaniel: :-)
2015-04-16T06:15:25Z jasom: otherwise you end up with a bunch of feature branches that haven't ever been tested together, which is a nightmare
2015-04-16T06:16:01Z jackdaniel: yeah, and I don't really want to add new features before next release
2015-04-16T06:16:09Z jackdaniel: only bugfixes and updating libraries
2015-04-16T06:18:05Z jackdaniel: jasom: thanks for feedback :)
2015-04-16T06:18:18Z jackdaniel: no I've got stuff to do \o
2015-04-16T06:18:23Z jackdaniel: s/no/now/
2015-04-16T06:19:25Z jasom: jackdaniel: just remember the longer the time from when you write the bug to when you discover the bug, the harder it is to fix the bug.  Slower relases, and a lack of an integration branch both tend to increase that time.
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2015-04-16T06:52:15Z zacts: what is the off-topic lisp chat?
2015-04-16T06:52:26Z zacts: I think I've found it
2015-04-16T06:52:28Z zacts: #lispcafe
2015-04-16T06:52:48Z jackdaniel: zacts: #lispcafe it is
2015-04-16T06:52:55Z jackdaniel: jasom: true that
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2015-04-16T07:01:08Z Slothel: I wish I had more artistic ability. All of my user interfaces come out looking likec rap
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2015-04-16T07:04:53Z Shinmera: THe solution is to look at more interfaces, study them, and write more yourself. There's no free lunch.
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2015-04-16T07:11:23Z smokeink: so have you guys ever played with Lush ?
2015-04-16T07:11:53Z Shinmera: Cosmetic products are off-topic here, methinks.
2015-04-16T07:13:06Z jackdaniel: ^_^
2015-04-16T07:15:11Z jackdaniel: lush is lisp, but neither cl or scheme
2015-04-16T07:15:33Z jackdaniel: but i don't see any distinct features in it, hence why bother
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2015-04-16T07:15:58Z H4ns: off topic.  and dead.
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2015-04-16T07:18:55Z smokeink: didn't know it's offtopic
2015-04-16T07:19:30Z jackdaniel: smokeink: this channel is about common-lisp
2015-04-16T07:20:32Z smokeink: ok
2015-04-16T07:20:33Z jackdaniel: you may try at #lisp-cafe, since it's more general place
2015-04-16T07:20:53Z jackdaniel: or ##lisp
2015-04-16T07:20:55Z Shinmera: There's no dash in #lispcafe
2015-04-16T07:21:02Z jackdaniel: sorry, #lispcafe °
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2015-04-16T07:25:00Z smokeink: 。
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2015-04-16T07:25:25Z smokeink: are you typing chinese?
2015-04-16T07:25:55Z Shinmera: What he typed was a degree sign, not a dot.
2015-04-16T07:26:07Z smokeink: hah
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2015-04-16T09:24:38Z hitecnologys: Hello, #lisp. I'm looking for any examples of asynchronous UDP servers using iolib. Are there any?
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2015-04-16T09:35:41Z fe[nl]ix_: hitecnologys: it's just like with TCP, you set up an event loop and read from the socket
2015-04-16T09:37:26Z hitecnologys: fe[nl]ix: so, what I need to change is get rid of TCP-specific stuff and replace :type to :datagram and I'm good?
2015-04-16T09:37:38Z hitecnologys: Err, fe[nl]ix_ ^
2015-04-16T09:39:27Z fe[nl]ix_: yes
2015-04-16T09:39:40Z hitecnologys: Huh, that sounds awesome. Thanks for help.
2015-04-16T09:40:14Z fe[nl]ix_: and use RECEIVE-FROM & SEND-TO  for  I/O
2015-04-16T09:42:02Z hitecnologys: Yeah, that I already figured out. I was just thinking that there's special handling needed for multiplexing.
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2015-04-16T10:29:36Z protist: Hello everyone :)
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2015-04-16T10:43:01Z tuturto: hello protist
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2015-04-16T10:45:39Z protist: tuturto: hello :)
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2015-04-16T11:15:41Z Xach: Hello friends. I am adding a feature to Quicklisp that I am tentatively calling "bundles". The idea is to extract a set of libraries (and their dependencies) to a directory, with a setup script that enables you to asdf:load-system any of the libraries without loading or involving Quicklisp.
2015-04-16T11:15:55Z Xach: Is the term "bundle" likely to cause confusion?
2015-04-16T11:16:10Z pjb: And you would specify the set of libraries with an asdf system?
2015-04-16T11:16:14Z Shinmera: Ooo that sounds exactly like something I was mashing my brain in over!
2015-04-16T11:16:38Z pjb: That could be a snapshot.
2015-04-16T11:16:58Z Shinmera: pjb: Snapshot sounds more like a specific time over the whole ecosystem, not a select few libs.
2015-04-16T11:17:06Z pjb: (ql:snapshot :my-app :tag "test-1")
2015-04-16T11:17:09Z SAL9000: the only thing that comes to mind is Clasp's use of ".bundle" and CORE:LOAD-BUNDLE for clbind (C++ interop) things
2015-04-16T11:17:30Z SAL9000: only other thing*
2015-04-16T11:17:50Z pjb: "bundle" has a specific meaning in MacOSX.
2015-04-16T11:18:12Z Shinmera: Xach: Alternative names could be 'packet', or 'cluster'. Though the later is unfortunate for coinciding with database terminology.
2015-04-16T11:18:27Z Shinmera: And the former is used in network terminology.
2015-04-16T11:19:17Z H4ns: how about bouquet?
2015-04-16T11:19:20Z Shinmera: Hmm. I can't think of anything that's just called a 'pack' though.
2015-04-16T11:19:40Z H4ns: anything with "pack" in its name would be rather confusing.
2015-04-16T11:20:05Z Shinmera: I guess. I like the sound of bouquet, but it might be a bit too, say, flowery.
2015-04-16T11:20:13Z smokeink: haha
2015-04-16T11:20:59Z Shinmera: Xach: How about 'kit'?
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2015-04-16T11:21:10Z smokeink: 'quickie'
2015-04-16T11:21:11Z hitecnologys: Bundle sounds fine to me.
2015-04-16T11:21:23Z pjb: a pre-image
2015-04-16T11:21:26Z Shinmera: bundle interferes with install scripts on linux/os-x.
2015-04-16T11:21:35Z Shinmera: A bunch of installers are .bundle files. :/
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2015-04-16T11:21:41Z hitecnologys: Bleh.
2015-04-16T11:22:00Z smokeink: 'base'
2015-04-16T11:22:01Z hitecnologys: Quandle?
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2015-04-16T11:24:32Z SAL9000: the three eternal problems of programmers: naming things, and off-by-one errors
2015-04-16T11:24:38Z hitecnologys: Xach: what's this feature primary intended use cases? Distribution? Keeping dependencies frozen in time?
2015-04-16T11:25:14Z Shinmera: The use case that I'm excited for is deployment.
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2015-04-16T11:25:58Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yeah, I am kind of too.
2015-04-16T11:26:26Z hitecnologys: If so, it can be named somewhat like 'quickdist' or so.
2015-04-16T11:26:32Z SAL9000: perhaps 'box'?
2015-04-16T11:26:36Z Shinmera: Quickdist is taken
2015-04-16T11:26:40Z SAL9000: like 'boxed up disks, ready to ship'
2015-04-16T11:26:42Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: really?
2015-04-16T11:26:44Z Shinmera: Namely by quicklisp dists and the quickdist project.
2015-04-16T11:26:50Z hitecnologys: Oh.
2015-04-16T11:26:59Z pjb: (ql:freeze :myapp) -> #<ql:ice-cube :myapp>
2015-04-16T11:27:11Z hitecnologys: Heh.
2015-04-16T11:27:21Z Shinmera: pjb: glacier would sound much more imposing.
2015-04-16T11:27:22Z hitecnologys: That'd be cool.
2015-04-16T11:27:39Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: glacier is taken.
2015-04-16T11:27:57Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: by Amazon guys, IIRC.
2015-04-16T11:28:06Z Shinmera: I'm quite sure there's an ice-cube project out there too.
2015-04-16T11:28:15Z SAL9000: (ql:bear :myapp) -> #<ql:hibernating :myapp>
2015-04-16T11:28:16Z Shinmera: Or rather, if there isn't, I'd be surprised.
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2015-04-16T11:28:38Z hitecnologys: I assume there is since it's kind of popular combination of words.
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2015-04-16T11:29:04Z Shinmera: (ql:spindle :app) -> #<ql:sleeping-beauty :app>
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2015-04-16T11:30:20Z SAL9000: (ql:push :app) -> #<SIMPLE-ERROR "Shove! This ain't a git repo!">
2015-04-16T11:30:47Z p_l: Xach: could we have a way to force versions when creating such bundles
2015-04-16T11:30:50Z p_l: ?
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2015-04-16T11:30:56Z hitecnologys: If QL could pack those "snapshots" into tar files with all the dependencies and then load them back on another hose, that's be nice.
2015-04-16T11:31:29Z hitecnologys: That's what I've been working on recently for deployment of code on remote systems.
2015-04-16T11:31:32Z pjb: Actually, one extension that would be nice on asdf, and that could fit nicely here with quicklisp, is that of virtual systems.
2015-04-16T11:31:43Z SAL9000: Shinmera: (ql:car :app) -> #<ql:cdr :app>
2015-04-16T11:31:54Z SAL9000: then (ql:cdr) to deploy. :P
2015-04-16T11:32:11Z pjb: This would help to manage some kinds of dependencies in asdf, where you could specify what actualy system would fullfil a virtual system dependency (either globally or on a per-system basis).
2015-04-16T11:32:35Z Shinmera: pjb: I've implemented such a system in Radiance.
2015-04-16T11:32:41Z hitecnologys: pjb: I've been talking about that extension for like a year or so. It has very few use cases at the moment (since few libraries provide compatible API) and hence has little practical value to bother.
2015-04-16T11:32:47Z pjb: In this case, for quicklisp, that would allow to define virtual systems such as :all-available or :installed, etc, so that you could easily (ql:freeze :installed).
2015-04-16T11:33:01Z Xach: p_l: it uses what quicklisp provides
2015-04-16T11:33:02Z Cymew: There is a particle physics experiment called Ice Cube, using 1km2 of Antarctic ice to detect neotrinos.
2015-04-16T11:33:03Z pjb: hitecnologys: inexistant tools are not used.
2015-04-16T11:33:04Z hitecnologys: pjb: ah, you mean sets?
2015-04-16T11:33:06Z Shinmera: pjb: You can add things like (:interface :database) to your system's :depends-on and it'll figure out which specific system to load based on a configuration file.
2015-04-16T11:33:29Z hitecnologys: pjb: well, yeah, they aren't.
2015-04-16T11:33:39Z SAL9000: wouldn't these virtual dependencies (or :provides etc.) break partial fasls?
2015-04-16T11:33:44Z pjb: Yes. But it would be most useful if implemented in asdf.  What is Radiance?
2015-04-16T11:33:59Z Shinmera: pjb: My web application environment.
2015-04-16T11:34:26Z SAL9000: if system A depends on (:any-of B C), then system D depends on (A C), when D is loaded the any-of "should" choose C, right?
2015-04-16T11:34:29Z Xach: My goal with bundles is to make it easier to incorporate specific Quicklisp libraries into a project without Quicklisp being involved, so avoiding accidental downloads of new dependencies and things like that. I think it could be useful for delivery in other ways too.
2015-04-16T11:34:31Z hitecnologys: pjb: in my understanding, virtual systems are systems that provide interoperability while sets (like :all-available) provide a way of grouping systems together.
2015-04-16T11:34:42Z pjb: Yes.
2015-04-16T11:34:42Z Shinmera: A main part is that it specifies interfaces in the form of stub functions that specific modules then implement. Thus allowing for seamless switching of underlying implementations (f.e. the database).
2015-04-16T11:35:07Z Cymew: Xach: Is quicklisp going to loose the "beta" tag soon, btw?
2015-04-16T11:35:09Z SAL9000: Shinmera: isn't that pretty much what generic functions do already?
2015-04-16T11:35:10Z pjb: hitecnologys: right but since a system can depend on several other, the same mechanism may serve both purpose, I think.
2015-04-16T11:35:20Z Xach: Cymew: come to my talk at els to find out!
2015-04-16T11:35:24Z Shinmera: SAL9000: No.
2015-04-16T11:35:26Z Cymew: :)
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2015-04-16T11:35:46Z Cymew: One of theese years I'll make it
2015-04-16T11:35:57Z Cymew: *these
2015-04-16T11:35:59Z p_l: Xach: I guess a way to embed (and require) versions in ASDF would be first thing to have for what I have in mind, then QL would only need a map between versions and dists
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2015-04-16T11:36:01Z hitecnologys: pjb: probably, but the point of virtual systems is that they cannot be simply expanded without API compatibility while sets can be changed without worrying.
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2015-04-16T11:36:58Z pjb: Perhaps we would just need to have a way to programmically define systems :-)
2015-04-16T11:37:20Z hitecnologys: Right.
2015-04-16T11:37:47Z Xach: The bundle also includes its own local-projects mechanism, again, sans quicklisp.
2015-04-16T11:38:29Z hitecnologys: So, should I expect movements towards API standardization for popular components (like databases or web servers) some time in near future? Otherwise, virtual packages are pretty much useless.
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2015-04-16T11:39:05Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Radiance does that, but then you need to agree with the subset that Radiance specifies.
2015-04-16T11:39:21Z Shinmera: Which I'm guessing people won't want to do in general.
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2015-04-16T11:40:25Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: Radiance only does that for it's own ecosystem. Having that community-wide would change the way we develop and deploy things.
2015-04-16T11:40:44Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Community wide is impossible because then you'd lose diversity.
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2015-04-16T11:41:19Z Shinmera: You can only restrict things with a specific goal in mind. The community does not have a common goal.
2015-04-16T11:42:04Z Shinmera: Or, rather, restricting things to a common interface can only lead to something useful if you do it with a specific goal in mind.
2015-04-16T11:42:48Z jackdaniel: * TODO Pobyt							     :londyn: - [ ] Dodać miejsca do telefonu - [ ] Zaplanować trasy - [ ] Porozumieć się z Robertem Strandh'em - [ ] Porozumieć się z Shinmera
2015-04-16T11:42:51Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I'm mostly speaking about providing a standard way to develop universal pluggable modules. Now it's only possible by keeping a separate from ASDF list of libraries which can be replaced by each other.
2015-04-16T11:42:52Z jackdaniel: sorry!
2015-04-16T11:43:20Z jackdaniel: 13:37 < Xach> Cymew: come to my talk at els to find out! -- wanted to comment this - nice plug
2015-04-16T11:43:37Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I can't read Polish, unfortunately!
2015-04-16T11:44:06Z jackdaniel: porozumiec sie z -- get in touch with, sorry bout that again
2015-04-16T11:44:08Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Ah, ok. So you want something like what I do in Radiance, but globally available?
2015-04-16T11:44:15Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: aye.
2015-04-16T11:44:21Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: As in, not specific interfaces, but the ability to provide such.
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2015-04-16T11:44:41Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: everybody does it for their projects, why not have it globally?
2015-04-16T11:44:55Z Shinmera: I might make the mechanism for that a modularize extension, so that you can have it 'standardised' as a lib.
2015-04-16T11:45:20Z hitecnologys: That'd be great if one makes such a system available.
2015-04-16T11:45:44Z Shinmera: I'll have to figure out how I can get the configuration for the mapping of interface -> specific impl done well though, since I don't think Radiance's way is good for the general case.
2015-04-16T11:45:53Z hitecnologys: I tried doing something in my Providing thing but it didn't turn out to be usable.
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2015-04-16T11:47:12Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: right, that needs rethinking, I agree.
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2015-04-16T11:47:34Z scymtym__: i made https://github.com/scymtym/architecture.service-provider but it only handles the named service <-> provider part, not interfaces or protocols
2015-04-16T11:48:05Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I'll put it on my todo, so I'll get around to it eventually.
2015-04-16T11:48:13Z Shinmera: Probably during the Radiance specification process, actually.
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2015-04-16T11:50:30Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: let me know how it goes, if that's OK with you.
2015-04-16T11:50:42Z Shinmera: Sure.
2015-04-16T11:50:45Z Shinmera: If I can remember :)
2015-04-16T11:51:10Z hitecnologys: Well, you can put it on TODO list.
2015-04-16T11:51:31Z hitecnologys: scymtym__: hmm, looks interesting.
2015-04-16T11:51:34Z Shinmera: As I did.
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2015-04-16T11:56:04Z scymtym__: hitecnologys: it works well enough for most of my needs, but it would be nice to have a way to associate protocols to services and check that providers actually implement them
2015-04-16T11:56:49Z mood: Does anyone know if it's possible to make CXML pretty-print XML but not place simple text contents in a tag on a new line? Eg: http://paste.lisp.org/+35II
2015-04-16T11:56:58Z Shinmera: scymtym__: modularize-interfaces does that, to an extent.
2015-04-16T11:57:23Z H4ns: mood: it is not possible unless you want to fix the formatter in CXML
2015-04-16T11:57:51Z hitecnologys: scymtym__: yeah, that'd be neat.
2015-04-16T11:57:55Z mood: H4ns: Ok, thanks
2015-04-16T11:58:35Z scymtym__: Shinmera: i will have a look, thanks
2015-04-16T11:58:51Z Shinmera: scymtym__: http://shinmera.github.io/modularize-interfaces/
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2015-04-16T12:03:56Z hitecnologys: fe[nl]ix_: one more question: do I actually need to implement data queues on my side so that I can then send them in write event handler? Can I simply put ':dont-wait t' in SEND-TO call or that is not recommended?
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2015-04-16T12:05:53Z fe[nl]ix_: hitecnologys: if the socket is marked as writable you should be able to send at least one datagram
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2015-04-16T12:07:12Z fe[nl]ix_: and sockets are created non-blocking by default so dont-wait is implicitly true
2015-04-16T12:07:21Z hitecnologys: fe[nl]ix_: so, I can safely cut the FIFO queues out along with connections management?
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2015-04-16T12:08:01Z fe[nl]ix_: probably
2015-04-16T12:08:22Z hitecnologys: fe[nl]ix_: I see. Thanks for information again.
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2015-04-16T12:11:21Z hitecnologys: Err, there's one more thing that bothers me and I'm probably done for today: I still don't quite get how write events work. When is write event triggered and how do I go about writing in general? Should I put the data somewhere and then set write event handler that will write it when the event is triggered or should I simply do SEND-TO whenever I want to send data?
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2015-04-16T12:16:59Z fe[nl]ix_: hitecnologys: the kernel keeps an internal socket buffer before sending the packets on the outbound interface
2015-04-16T12:17:04Z fe[nl]ix_: if there are less than SO_SNDLOWAT bytes free in the buffer - usually 1 - then the socket gets marked as not writable
2015-04-16T12:17:45Z hitecnologys: fe[nl]ix_: and in this case EWOULDBLOCK is raised, right?
2015-04-16T12:18:28Z fe[nl]ix_: ENOBUFS
2015-04-16T12:18:46Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-04-16T12:19:03Z fe[nl]ix_: or maybe EWOULDBLOCK, I don't remember
2015-04-16T12:19:11Z fe[nl]ix_: it's difficult to replicate that condition
2015-04-16T12:19:28Z fe[nl]ix_: you need a very slow outbound connection
2015-04-16T12:20:00Z fe[nl]ix_: but it can happen
2015-04-16T12:20:02Z hitecnologys: I assume I should just silently ignore it then since there's not much I can do in this case.
2015-04-16T12:20:18Z hitecnologys: Or am I wrong?
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2015-04-16T12:22:52Z fe[nl]ix_: pretty much
2015-04-16T12:23:54Z fe[nl]ix_: you can also try setting SO_SNDLOWAT on the socket to your maximum packet size, if you know it
2015-04-16T12:24:28Z fe[nl]ix_: not all kernels allow it, so you can safely ignore errors there
2015-04-16T12:24:55Z hitecnologys: OK, I see. What's the write event for then if I can just send packets in place?
2015-04-16T12:26:35Z fe[nl]ix_: the write event informs you that there's space in the kernel buffer
2015-04-16T12:27:13Z fe[nl]ix_: and now you have to judge the consequences of that for your case
2015-04-16T12:27:21Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-04-16T12:27:54Z hitecnologys: Is there a way to check if there is space so that I can send data without buffering and buffer it in my application otherwise?
2015-04-16T12:28:02Z fe[nl]ix_: for example, with UDP every sendto() results in a packet, but there will be no truncation
2015-04-16T12:28:25Z fe[nl]ix_: so if you want to send 56 bytes but only 32 are free you'll get an ENOBUFS
2015-04-16T12:29:18Z hitecnologys: Can I just hook into ENOBUFS/EWOULDBLOCK then?
2015-04-16T12:29:35Z hitecnologys: (I mean set HANDLER-CASE on them)
2015-04-16T12:29:35Z fe[nl]ix_: I don't think it's possible to check the amount of empty space
2015-04-16T12:30:39Z fe[nl]ix_: what kind of data are you trying to send ?
2015-04-16T12:31:17Z hitecnologys: Binary data. The protocol I'm using is binary.
2015-04-16T12:31:47Z fe[nl]ix_: if your protocol has a "natural" upper bound on the packet size that is sufficiently lower than the maximum UDP packet, you can set SO_SNDLOWAT
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2015-04-16T12:32:22Z fe[nl]ix_: that should guarantee that you'll never get a write event if the empty space is insufficient
2015-04-16T12:33:01Z hitecnologys: I don't think there is an upper bound but I probably can add it.
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2015-04-16T12:33:48Z fe[nl]ix_: and you should also probably limit the packet size to the MTU - size of headers
2015-04-16T12:35:31Z fe[nl]ix_: hitecnologys: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14993000/the-most-reliable-and-efficient-udp-packet-size
2015-04-16T12:35:40Z hitecnologys: How do I change SO_SNDLOWAT? Does iolib provide something or I need to do raw POSIX calls?
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2015-04-16T12:36:44Z fe[nl]ix_: an MTU of 1492 - for ADSL modems results in a limit of 1464
2015-04-16T12:37:09Z fe[nl]ix_: hitecnologys: (setf (socket-option socket :send-low-water) 1464)
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2015-04-16T12:37:32Z hitecnologys: fe[nl]ix_: oh, I see.
2015-04-16T12:40:24Z hitecnologys: fe[nl]ix_: alright, I think I got it. Thanks a lot for help, again. I think I can safely get back to work now and rewrite all the TCP mess I've done.
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2015-04-16T14:37:51Z oleo: hello
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2015-04-16T14:38:25Z rudolfochrist: hi
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2015-04-16T14:44:37Z smokeink: hi
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2015-04-16T15:01:40Z _2_yash: heey
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2015-04-16T15:32:22Z smokeink: can flet functions be traced?
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2015-04-16T15:36:41Z axion: is there anything like remove-duplicates which will remove all occurences if they are duplicates, not just leaving one remaining?
2015-04-16T15:36:45Z pjb: smokeink: yes, with tracing-flet.
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2015-04-16T15:37:32Z pjb: smokeink: actually, tracing-labels: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:tracing-labels
2015-04-16T15:37:33Z dlowe: axion: not built-in
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2015-04-16T15:38:17Z pjb: I didn't do a tracing flet, but it would be trivial to derive it from tracing-labels, if you cannot use tracing-labels to debug it.
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2015-04-16T15:47:07Z smokeink: ok
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2015-04-16T16:02:53Z Xach: anyone interested in checking a draft of this quicklisp bundle functionality?
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2015-04-16T16:03:31Z axion: sure, what do i have to do?
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2015-04-16T16:05:01Z Xach: read through http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html
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2015-04-16T16:12:35Z axion: it's well written as it is, just a couple minor grammatical errors
2015-04-16T16:13:56Z jasom: fe[nl]ix_: don't forget VPN over an ADSL; then ~1200 is about right, though I've seen as low as ~980
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2015-04-16T16:14:25Z jasom: fe[nl]ix_: without PMTU discovery you have to either be okay with fragmentation, or super conservative
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2015-04-16T16:19:37Z scymtym: Xach: the section "Loading a bundle" could mention that neither quicklisp nor asdf have to be loaded before loading bundle.lisp in a fresh image (if that is actually the case). the same section could also explicitly mention that bundle.lisp is loaded via CL:LOAD.
2015-04-16T16:19:46Z adlai: Xach: looks good! small comment, the documentation for ql:bundle-systems only mentions the first condition
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2015-04-16T16:19:59Z jdz: Xach: looks good to me (and i did not notice any grammatical errors, but that's probably because my english is not very good)
2015-04-16T16:20:47Z jdz: Xach: except one thing: TO is a keyword argument, but is not optional, right?
2015-04-16T16:21:10Z Xach: scymtym, adlai, jdz: thanks, all good points
2015-04-16T16:21:12Z Xach: jdz: right
2015-04-16T16:21:14Z axion: Xach: at the bottom, in "ql-bundle:system-not-found", i would change "quicklisp" to "Quicklisp" to be consistent with the rest of the document. in "ql:bundle-systems" function, i would change "unpacks" to "unpack", or some other method to make it a complete sentence.
2015-04-16T16:23:48Z BRPocock: Small nit-pick: :overwritep ?
2015-04-16T16:24:08Z jasom: axion: I think delete the comma before "unpacks" is all that is needed for ql:bundle-systems
2015-04-16T16:24:20Z BRPocock: or vs. :if-exists :supersede ? :-)
2015-04-16T16:24:54Z Xach: BRPocock: I don't think keyword arguments that accept true/false should end in "p".
2015-04-16T16:25:56Z Xach: I need to make the tense consistent. Should be "deletes", not "is deleted"
2015-04-16T16:26:00Z jasom: You may want to point out what happens if a system is locatable both by asdf and quicklisp; I assume the quicklisp system is what gets bundled?
2015-04-16T16:26:29Z Xach: jasom: I hoped to make that clear in the 2nd paragraph of "overview"
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2015-04-16T16:28:20Z akkad: has ql had any efforts to work on VLM?
2015-04-16T16:28:30Z Xach: akkad: What's VLM?
2015-04-16T16:29:46Z akkad: Xach bolics
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2015-04-16T16:30:52Z jasom: akkad: quicklisp is ANSI common-lisp only; did virtual lisp machine support that?
2015-04-16T16:31:11Z Xach: akkad: What's that?
2015-04-16T16:31:25Z akkad: Symbolics VLM
2015-04-16T16:31:26Z jasom: Xach: Symbolics Virtual Lisp Machine (ran on Alpha systems)
2015-04-16T16:31:36Z Xach: oh
2015-04-16T16:31:40Z akkad: it's been ported to Linux x86_64
2015-04-16T16:31:47Z jasom: akkad: it has?
2015-04-16T16:31:49Z akkad: and has the prereq of networking
2015-04-16T16:32:02Z akkad: yeah, since VLM is a bunch of low level alpha hooks
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2015-04-16T16:32:24Z Xach: I don't have any interest in that. At one point ASDF had a bunch of cruft to make it work on symbolics, and it seemed pretty ugly to me.
2015-04-16T16:32:37Z Xach: If someone sends a patch and it is not gross, I would consider it.
2015-04-16T16:32:39Z akkad: OpenGenera
2015-04-16T16:32:45Z akkad: Xach ok.
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2015-04-16T16:35:45Z jasom: someone should make a docker image for that
2015-04-16T16:36:24Z jasom: particularly since it needs an old xserver to work
2015-04-16T16:36:42Z jasom: maybe run it in an ancient Xvnc
2015-04-16T16:36:59Z alpha-: maybe a complete vm image
2015-04-16T16:37:05Z alpha-: not a docker container
2015-04-16T16:38:10Z jasom: Is distributing OpenGenera 2.0 strictly legal?
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2015-04-16T16:55:41Z _1_Gopikrishna2: holaaa
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2015-04-16T16:56:33Z oleo: :D
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2015-04-16T17:01:23Z Xach wonders what's up with the bots
2015-04-16T17:01:27Z akkad: jasom no vlm is not ansi compliant
2015-04-16T17:01:56Z akkad: Xach must have been someone you pissed off?
2015-04-16T17:02:21Z Xach: "must" seems strong.
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2015-04-16T17:05:01Z p_l: a teeny weeny kiddo with complexes, more than pissing someone off
2015-04-16T17:07:00Z jasom: quicklisp is so awesome it made someone insecure
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2015-04-16T17:36:32Z p_l: yup
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2015-04-16T17:54:39Z akkad: heh
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2015-04-16T18:01:53Z BRPocock: opinion, anybody wrapping C++ in CL (sbcl x86-64, or otherwise), who does not hate the tool they are using? This lib includes templates, it's not "C with some classes."
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2015-04-16T18:02:25Z Bicyclidine: you're aware of clasp, right?
2015-04-16T18:03:37Z BRPocock: That is a wholly distinct compiler, is it not?
2015-04-16T18:03:54Z Bicyclidine: yeah. but it's built for c++ interoperation.
2015-04-16T18:05:37Z BRPocock: Am I wrong to guess that it is also somewhat "beta" or "shiny new?" — I'm afraid I know next-to-nothing about it
2015-04-16T18:05:46Z Shinmera: It's very beta.
2015-04-16T18:08:22Z BRPocock: :-/
2015-04-16T18:08:26Z Shinmera: As far as I know people don't interoperate with C++ directly, but instead rely on C wrappers to use CFFI with.
2015-04-16T18:08:53Z Bicyclidine: yeah, i think that's the only half-reasonable way. clasp does it directly which is why i figured it should at least figure in your thoughts.
2015-04-16T18:08:54Z Shinmera: There's a couple of tools to generate C wrappers, but I haven't heard of one that people didn't complain about.
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2015-04-16T18:09:37Z BRPocock: That's what I've been doing, but templates make that exceptionally painful. I started from auto-generated, then wasted a month's worth of hours hand-massaging them to almost-work.
2015-04-16T18:09:55Z Shinmera: Welcome to the world of C++ interop, I guess.
2015-04-16T18:09:58Z pyon is now known as scum-multiset
2015-04-16T18:10:03Z BRPocock: yeah :-(
2015-04-16T18:10:41Z Shinmera: Smoke works fairly well for Qt, but I don't know if that's easy to use or would work at all for your use-case.
2015-04-16T18:10:58Z Shinmera: And people seem to complain about Smoke left and right, so I don't know.
2015-04-16T18:10:59Z BRPocock: I'm about to think about writing a method-combination-function that works more like C++'s with variable-arity, but I have never seen that done and suspect it's for a good reason
2015-04-16T18:11:36Z kephra: BRPocock, I abandomed C++ for this reason nearly 20 years ago
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2015-04-16T18:11:53Z p_l: about only sensible interop with c++ is windows with com....
2015-04-16T18:11:56Z kephra: today I prefer Lua instead of ++ if I need a higher abstraction
2015-04-16T18:12:12Z BRPocock: Ditto. But now, I have a C++ "not open source, but here is the source" library that is far from worth rewriting. :-(
2015-04-16T18:13:20Z kephra: wrapping C++ is possible with Lua - but I dont know any Lisp that has both light weight and heavy weight external objects
2015-04-16T18:13:40Z jasom: BRPocock: it's a complete pain in the butt to use C++ from any other language
2015-04-16T18:13:55Z BRPocock: I concur. Including C++ itself :-)
2015-04-16T18:13:59Z jasom: BRPocock: if you ae using something KDE-ish then smoke can generate not-terrible bindings
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2015-04-16T18:14:53Z jasom: I've not been able to get smoke to work on the 2 non-Qt based libraries I tried it on, but that was about a year ago, so it may have improved
2015-04-16T18:15:11Z jasom: and templates will require you instantiate everything you use before you generate the dll
2015-04-16T18:15:14Z BRPocock: It's meant for Windows game physics. Luckily, it's mostly "pure" code, i.e. it does not call any Windows API's or so forth. I'll take a look at Smoke, as I had not heard of it.
2015-04-16T18:15:50Z BRPocock: And, yes, I have a stub to force that. The templating mostly has to do with FP precision. Vector<double> type stuff.
2015-04-16T18:16:15Z jasom: BRPocock: oh, that's good, I was worrying it was going to be something like Eigen which templates for doing matrix multiplies
2015-04-16T18:16:32Z jasom: and will statically generate code for compile-time known diminsioned arrays
2015-04-16T18:17:07Z BRPocock: Along with /thousands/ of mostly-autogenerated stub functions that are mostly-ok. … There is a little of that, but it's limited to the cases of vector[234] type things, thankfully quite limited.
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2015-04-16T18:17:21Z jasom: Templates are C++'s answer to lisps macro system, and caused most lispers to say "I don't think you understood the question"
2015-04-16T18:17:37Z BRPocock: +1
2015-04-16T18:17:39Z jasom: though they are turing complete, so in theory you can do anything with C++ macros you wnat
2015-04-16T18:17:47Z jasom: s/macros/templates
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2015-04-16T18:18:43Z adlai: too bad CL macros aren't
2015-04-16T18:18:49Z adlai: /s!
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2015-04-16T18:24:01Z ynix: How do I write and run Lisp code? Do I need Emacs or something?
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2015-04-16T18:25:03Z Bicyclidine: ynix: download sbcl or ccl, start it up, type (print "hello world")
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2015-04-16T18:25:36Z ynix: Bicyclidine: Which one should I go with?
2015-04-16T18:25:49Z Bicyclidine: what's your operating system?
2015-04-16T18:26:10Z ynix: All 3, currently on Windows though.,
2015-04-16T18:26:23Z Bicyclidine: let's say ccl.
2015-04-16T18:26:43Z Bicyclidine: they all pretty much conform to the CL standard so there's not many differences between them for basic stuff.
2015-04-16T18:27:08Z ynix: Ok, thank you.
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2015-04-16T18:30:47Z BRPocock: shinmera: would you say starting from github.com/shinmera/qtools/smoke is a sane starting-point? Google seems to consider you, my best bet after some 2009 slideshows.
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2015-04-16T18:35:40Z BRPocock: or jasom same question :-) I hope to give this a shot tonight in lieu of fixing these other bug reports, which all look related to bindings, rather.
2015-04-16T18:36:10Z BRPocock: bah, but for now I run AFK again
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2015-04-16T18:41:09Z jasom: BRPocock: it's worth a shot, don't be surprised if it doesn't work.  The best bet is to just write a C interface for each function you need to call, as you need it.
2015-04-16T18:41:38Z jasom: I think swig can automate some of that process for you
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2015-04-16T18:42:12Z jasom: also, don't even think about trying to treat any non-POD class or struct as anything but an opaque pointer from lisp.  If you try to do that, you're not going to have a good time
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2015-04-16T18:43:05Z jasom: BRPocock: also, according to the latest swig docs the C++ support has come a long way since I last used it
2015-04-16T18:44:04Z jasom: http://www.swig.org/Doc3.0/SWIGDocumentation.html#SWIGPlus
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2015-04-16T18:54:37Z ynix: Is anyone else running CCL on Windows? This is pretty dumb, but I can't figure out how to quit the interpreter?
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2015-04-16T18:57:28Z samebchase: ynix: you could try Ctrl-Z ?
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2015-04-16T18:59:14Z samebchase: or maybe `(quit)`
2015-04-16T18:59:44Z samebchase: http://ccl.clozure.com/docs/ccl.html#operating-system-interface
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2015-04-16T19:02:33Z ynix: Hmmm, it just seems to hang after (quit)
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2015-04-16T19:04:27Z Shinmera: BRPocock: I don't have anything to do with smoke, CommonQt takes care of that. Qtools is just a layer on top of CommonQt.
2015-04-16T19:05:26Z Shinmera: BRPocock: You can ask stassats about smoke, though from what I know he doesn't like it at all and is intending to drop it in favour of a home-made solution using Clasp for source analysis.
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2015-04-16T19:06:05Z Shinmera: BRPocock: You may however ask me if you intend on developing a Qt application with Common Lisp. That, I do have experience with.
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2015-04-16T19:08:56Z jasom: or if you want to take an existing C++ library binding and make it more lisplike; that's something else Shinmera has experience with
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2015-04-16T19:09:47Z Shinmera: I suppose so, yes.
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2015-04-16T19:13:11Z BRPocock: The "hand-wrapped edits derived from SWIG" solution is where I have been pulling hair. And my accessors all call the C++ accessors using opaque pointers, yes. There are many thousands of functions thus exposed, many of which the variable-arity requires rewriting the C/Lisp wrappers compared to what Swig had intended. :-(
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2015-04-16T19:14:32Z BRPocock: What I wish to do is read the C++ sources, emit some awful-looking CL code, and then compile and edit that, but I'm afraid nobody has this tool yet. :-)
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2015-04-16T19:16:17Z Shinmera: If I understand you can't either due to the lack of a specified calling convention, unless you force everyone to compile the C++ sources using the exact same compiler as you did.
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2015-04-16T19:18:52Z BRPocock: Oh, I wouldn't care if anyone else can run the C++ original after I tortured it so.
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2015-04-16T19:22:57Z pjb: ynix: you just need a magnetic pin, to edit any program, including lisp programs!
2015-04-16T19:23:51Z BRPocock: Its existence saves us years of work, but its language is far from my friend. I have some pie-in-the-sky dream that reading the intermediate output of gcc or llvm could be used to write out a, perhaps not horribly inefficient, CL interpretation of what it says in a moderately-intelligible way, so that I could nicely link to it and optimize/edit it without delving into the horrors that are C++.
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2015-04-16T19:24:15Z dlowe: BRPocock: someone did that.
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2015-04-16T19:26:01Z BRPocock: Verrazano?
2015-04-16T19:26:45Z BRPocock: Verrazano and Clasp use the output to write bindings, but won't translate sources, but if there's something else, I'm eager to know :-)
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2015-04-16T19:28:42Z dlowe: I was thinking of Clasp
2015-04-16T19:28:49Z Shinmera: There's Vacietis which allows you to load C code into a CL runtime, but that's obviously not C++.
2015-04-16T19:29:15Z pjb: You could extend Vacietis to compile C++.
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2015-04-16T19:46:01Z axion: greetings all. i'm working on a simple challenge with a friend. how can this be done better? http://paste.lisp.org/display/147129
2015-04-16T19:46:58Z Xach: axion: one easy option is to keep a table of lines and check it before output
2015-04-16T19:47:13Z alpha-: done better? :) man uniq
2015-04-16T19:47:24Z alpha-: for some definitions of better
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2015-04-16T19:48:17Z BRPocock: but uniq only works on consecutive lines, unless there is some Gnu extension I don't know of… much easier to do that
2015-04-16T19:48:19Z axion: well aware, though must be done with pure lisp :)
2015-04-16T19:48:34Z dlowe: sort -u outputs only unique lines
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2015-04-16T19:50:22Z axion: dlowe: sort -u does not preserve input order as per the requirements
2015-04-16T19:50:29Z axion: but anyway, lisp :)
2015-04-16T19:50:33Z Xach: (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) while line unless (shiftf (gethash line table) t) do (write-line line))
2015-04-16T19:50:59Z axion: ah nice, Xach
2015-04-16T19:51:01Z Xach: for table = (make-hash-table :test 'equal)
2015-04-16T19:51:08Z Xach: err, with?
2015-04-16T19:51:12Z Xach: i don't remember. i usually let-bind
2015-04-16T19:51:16Z axion: with
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2015-04-16T19:54:44Z axion: Xach: that doesn't meet the requirements, sadly
2015-04-16T19:54:53Z Xach: axion: how so?
2015-04-16T19:55:04Z Xach: oh, ok, i see.
2015-04-16T19:55:07Z axion: that is effectively reimplementing remove-duplicates, when infact it should not include lines that are duplicated at all
2015-04-16T19:55:23Z Xach: Sorry!
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2015-04-16T20:03:20Z BRPocock:   (let ((lines (make-hash-table :test #'equal)))     (dolist (line (read-lines file))      (incf (gethash line lines 0)))    (maphash (lambda (line count)               (when (= 1 count)                  (write-line line))) lines))
2015-04-16T20:03:46Z Bicyclidine: doesn't preserve order
2015-04-16T20:03:56Z Bicyclidine: push them into a list or something, i guess
2015-04-16T20:04:15Z BRPocock: yeah, that's wrong :-/ indeed.
2015-04-16T20:04:22Z pjb: axion: http://paste.lisp.org/+35IX/1
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2015-04-16T20:05:39Z BRPocock: +1
2015-04-16T20:05:50Z axion: there ya go, thanks
2015-04-16T20:06:08Z pjb: axion: the trick in those questions is to remember that O(n)+O(n)=O(n)
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2015-04-16T20:07:55Z axion: ah yeah
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2015-04-16T20:59:15Z monod: hello there!
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2015-04-16T21:01:34Z juyhj: hello
2015-04-16T21:03:46Z jasom: Help me out; I'm trying to remember the name of something; it was stream-like and proposed as an alternative to iteration, I think it was in CLtL2 but not in ANSI
2015-04-16T21:04:16Z lieven: SERIES
2015-04-16T21:04:27Z jasom: thank you lieven
2015-04-16T21:05:20Z juyhj: series is like 100000 lines and 7 years of work
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2015-04-16T21:06:13Z lieven: and it's not the clearest code in the world. I once tracked down a problem in it when compiled by Allegro.
2015-04-16T21:06:30Z monod: okay, I've copied two lines from the console output with slime and emacs
2015-04-16T21:06:42Z monod: can I paste them here? They are two rows, only.
2015-04-16T21:06:51Z lieven: It's not ANSI compliant since it relies rather crucially on COMPILER-LET and rewriting around that would be highly non trivial.
2015-04-16T21:07:12Z monod: (just in case someone here knows how to solve this before I try with a search engine...)
2015-04-16T21:07:24Z Bicyclidine: yeah, sure.
2015-04-16T21:07:31Z Xach: monod: paste.lisp.org can be better even for short stuff because people can annotate
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2015-04-16T21:07:57Z monod: I don't know how much do you want to annotate from this right now. But okay, link incoming.
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2015-04-16T21:08:58Z Xach: If anyone wants to try out that quicklisp bundle thing, (ql:update-client) will fetch an updated quicklisp client with that functionality. if you run into any problems please let me know.
2015-04-16T21:09:04Z Xach: don't be tweeting and such about it just yet.
2015-04-16T21:10:09Z monod: http://paste.lisp.org/+35J2
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2015-04-16T21:10:26Z monod: ^ here's the two rows in the emacs slime console
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2015-04-16T21:11:20Z monod: gotta go
2015-04-16T21:11:23Z monod: thank you anyway
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2015-04-16T21:12:58Z Bicyclidine: minion: message for monod: you should be able to ignore those warnings - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5019724/in-emacs-what-does-this-error-mean-warning-cl-package-required-at-runtime and try to give more than a minute for answers next time :p
2015-04-16T21:12:58Z minion: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
2015-04-16T21:13:04Z Bicyclidine: minion: memo for monod: you should be able to ignore those warnings - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5019724/in-emacs-what-does-this-error-mean-warning-cl-package-required-at-runtime and try to give more than a minute for answers next time :p
2015-04-16T21:13:04Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell monod when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-04-16T21:14:59Z juyhj: it seems is elisp related
2015-04-16T21:15:03Z Shinmera: Xach: I'll have a look on Saturday.
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2015-04-16T21:15:30Z juyhj: what the new functionality (bundle?)
2015-04-16T21:15:32Z Bicyclidine: it is elisp related, but it's due to loading slime, or something. i remember getting the same warning and i don't use elisp much at all.
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2015-04-16T21:16:39Z juyhj: I have never seem that error in sbcl, but I don't use elisp
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2015-04-16T21:24:32Z dim: Xach: what's the envisioned use case of the bundle facility?
2015-04-16T21:26:26Z Xach: dim: adding control over distributing quicklisp-like library sets without the open-endedness of quicklisp
2015-04-16T21:26:36Z akkad: is it similar to ruby bundler?
2015-04-16T21:26:41Z Xach: akkad: i don't think so.
2015-04-16T21:26:44Z dim: I see, I think
2015-04-16T21:26:50Z dim: source based stable distributions
2015-04-16T21:27:06Z Xach: dim: e.g. providing tested sets that are updated periodically after more testing, not whenever quicklisp's dist update happens.
2015-04-16T21:27:09Z dim: (stable as in debian stable, wherein the version number are stables)
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2015-04-16T21:27:47Z dim: I'll have to think if I have requirements that meet with this use case, on first sight I don't think I do
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2015-04-16T21:28:43Z Xach: It could be used to provide an all-in-one bundle for delivery of a source-based "application", without involving quicklisp fetching stuff.
2015-04-16T21:29:31Z Xach: It's something I've wanted to do since the beginning of quicklisp
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2015-04-16T21:32:01Z didi: If I want the pathname of a file, I can use (defvar *p* #.(or *compile-file-truename* *load-truename*)). What if I want the directory of this file?
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2015-04-16T21:32:28Z Xach: didi: (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :defaults *p*) is one option
2015-04-16T21:32:49Z Xach: or (make-pathname :directory (pathname-directory *p*))?
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2015-04-16T21:33:48Z didi: Xach: Ah, thank you. Can I use it inside the #.() form or do I have to do it at runtime? I tried #.(pathname-directory (or ...)) but I think it tried to eval `:absolute' like a function call.
2015-04-16T21:35:22Z Xach: didi: you could use #.(make-pathname :directory (or *c-f-t* *l-t*))
2015-04-16T21:35:32Z didi: Xach: Cool. Thank you.
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2015-04-16T21:35:57Z kephra: pathnames are cool - especially when it comes to pathname translations
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2015-04-16T21:37:37Z kephra: it allows to run lisp code like old mainframe code - the code itself only has simple names - and pathname translation does all the magic to resolve them into the right pathes
2015-04-16T21:37:57Z Shinmera: didi: If you have ASDF, you should use ASDF:SYSTEM-RELATIVE-PATHNAME and ASDF:SYSTEM-SOURCE-DIRECTORY
2015-04-16T21:38:19Z didi: Shinmera: Interesting. Thanks.
2015-04-16T21:40:01Z Xach: I don't agree.
2015-04-16T21:40:14Z Xach: You can use that, but that does not mean you should.
2015-04-16T21:41:13Z Posterdati: kephra: plus you can port your programs among systems with no major changes and fixings
2015-04-16T21:42:01Z Xach: Using ASDF commands means you have to update your source if you ever rename your system. I also dislike having build system functions in my source code. Plus there are easy ways to do it that don't involve asdf.
2015-04-16T21:44:07Z Posterdati: Xach: s/systems/Operative Systems
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2015-04-16T21:52:11Z kephra: Posterdati, porting is not only if a path is delimited by \ or / but also often where to find the right directory on this system for stuff XYZ
2015-04-16T21:52:26Z kephra: pathname translations solves both
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2015-04-16T22:10:55Z fe[nl]ix: didi: renaming the ASDF system happens so rarely that it's not worth bothering to avoid ASDF utilities
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2015-04-16T22:13:10Z didi: fe[nl]ix: I see.
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2015-04-16T23:03:06Z jasom: I just want to make sure I'm the only one currently squashing bugs in eclipse CL?
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2015-04-16T23:06:26Z jasom: valgrind is making it really easy (though it stops printing errors after 1000, so every 1000 bugs I fix, I need to rebuild
2015-04-16T23:06:55Z pillton: 1000 bugs?
2015-04-16T23:07:09Z jasom: well in this case, it's the exact same error cut-and-pasted 1000 times
2015-04-16T23:07:22Z Bicyclidine: wow.
2015-04-16T23:07:25Z jasom: when calling into lisp from C, there is an end-of-argument marker
2015-04-16T23:07:40Z jasom: and they forgot to call it on every single object they created in the standard library
2015-04-16T23:07:45Z jasom: for clMakeStaticSlots
2015-04-16T23:08:18Z Bicyclidine: is this eclipse the IDE, or this thing https://github.com/blakemcbride/eclipse-lisp
2015-04-16T23:08:23Z jasom: the latter Bicyclidine
2015-04-16T23:08:31Z Bicyclidine: got it
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2015-04-16T23:09:07Z Bicyclidine: it looks like they're still active, is the maintainer aware of what you'e doing
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2015-04-16T23:09:30Z jasom: It sounded very not-active when I filed one bug report
2015-04-16T23:09:42Z jasom: like "we're not surprised there are bugs, it might take some work to get it to not crash"
2015-04-16T23:09:56Z jasom: I'm going to put this particular one all in a single PR
2015-04-16T23:11:29Z jasom just got a REPL to boot without a single valgrind error (with GC disabled)
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2015-04-16T23:21:06Z pillton: Wow. Two new lisp implementations for interfacing with C or C++ in a year.
2015-04-16T23:21:38Z jasom: though in this case, it's almost 20 years old
2015-04-16T23:21:45Z jasom: just now open sourced
2015-04-16T23:21:51Z pillton: Ah right.
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2015-04-16T23:30:46Z suguriu: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2015-04-16T23:31:57Z jasom: so funcalling generic functions seems to break with eclipse CL in emscripten.  Not quite sure why yet
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2015-04-16T23:40:57Z brucem: jasom: If I had to guess blindly ... are there function pointer casts involved?
2015-04-16T23:41:18Z jasom: brucem: 99% certain not
2015-04-16T23:41:40Z jasom: brucem: this is all untyped FPs though
2015-04-16T23:41:46Z brucem: jasom: or any usage of function pointers where the type signatures don't match ...
2015-04-16T23:41:59Z jasom: hahaha type signatures; you thought this was *modern* C code
2015-04-16T23:42:08Z brucem: I was pretty sure it wasn't.
2015-04-16T23:42:16Z jasom: this is all K&R style declarations and no type-signatures on FPs
2015-04-16T23:42:18Z brucem: IIRC, that's one of Blake's K&R C repos.
2015-04-16T23:42:51Z brucem: jasom: so, due to how function tables work in asm.js, that code won't work correctly on emscripten without some effort.
2015-04-16T23:43:04Z jasom: oh, that's a shame
2015-04-16T23:43:31Z jasom: how do function tables work?
2015-04-16T23:44:03Z brucem: jasom: there's a function table for each type "signature" and at the call site, it looks in the right function table ...
2015-04-16T23:44:23Z jasom: ah, well it shouldn't be *too* hard since all lisp functions have the same signature
2015-04-16T23:44:51Z brucem: jasom: Like this:     FUNCTION_TABLE_viii[HEAP32[(HEAP32[i6 >> 2] | 0) + 8 >> 2] & 511](i1 + 92 | 0, i6, i1 + 664 | 0);
2015-04-16T23:45:25Z jasom: i.e. right I saw that, but what decides that it's FUNCTION_TABLE_viii and not FUNCTION_TABLE_ii
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2015-04-16T23:47:08Z brucem: jasom: in emscripten-fastcomp, lib/Target/JSBackend/CallHandlers.h, and the CallHandler that starts with: DEF_CALL_HANDLER(__default__, {
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2015-04-16T23:49:14Z brucem: jasom: technically ... I think this code could be better in the JSBackend. It probably shouldn't treat the function type as being varargs and instead know about C function defs that don't have any args specified and then look to the arguments to generate the type signature to look it up.
2015-04-16T23:49:24Z brucem: jasom: since that sort of thing is perfectly valid in ANSI C as well.
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2015-04-16T23:50:21Z brucem: but that might be a limitation in how Clang represents them internally as well.
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2015-04-16T23:55:50Z jasom: It should only take a bit of work; nearly all the functions are _vi already
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2015-04-16T23:56:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: Hm, was reading something about most programming languages don't include useful information in exceptions. i.g. IndexOutOfBounds doesn't include attempted index value or bounds value. Tried to (aref #(1 2 3) 100), was pleasantly surprised.
2015-04-16T23:57:40Z brucem: jasom: How's the code size?
2015-04-16T23:58:09Z jasom: brucem: -O0 -g4 right now, so don't have good data
2015-04-16T23:58:15Z jasom: 67MB
2015-04-16T23:58:27Z jasom: but most of that is debug info
2015-04-16T23:58:45Z brucem: jasom: ahh ... -g4 is slower to generate too. You'd probably be fine with just reading the generated JS from -O3 -g2
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2015-04-16T23:59:12Z jasom: brucem: due to the insane amount of C macros, I needed something to associate JS to C lines
2015-04-16T23:59:46Z jasom: also the help doc recommended -O0 when first porting code (for increased assertions)