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2015-04-13T00:08:34Z Slothrop: This may seema  naive question, but what is the best way to go about creating an *interactive* lisp web application
2015-04-13T00:08:43Z Slothrop: I understand the process of using hunchentoot to serve static pages
2015-04-13T00:08:55Z Slothrop: But what I want to accomplish basically is to run a lisp program on my server
2015-04-13T00:09:03Z Slothrop: that can do I/O, etc.
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2015-04-13T00:12:37Z pjb: read more about hunchentoot. It's rather optimized to serve dynamic pages.
2015-04-13T00:13:31Z pjb: Also, ask on #lispweb
2015-04-13T00:13:55Z Slothrop: pjb: Sure, but I think my model of how hunchentoot works is wrong, so I'd like some clarification. Basically what I want to do is allow this server to communicate to an actual program that then passes its return values backt o hunchentoot to serve the pages
2015-04-13T00:14:02Z Slothrop: pjb: Thanks for the suggestion, I'll ask there
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2015-04-13T00:34:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: Slothrop, Like Seaside? http://www.seaside.st/about/examples/counter
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2015-04-13T02:08:17Z linux_dream: hey guys, anyone know where WILLIAM FREDERICK SCHELTER was born?
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2015-04-13T02:10:37Z |3b|: Slothrop: for some types of interaction, you can do most of the interaction on the browser, with occasional XHR to update data to/from server. If you need continuous connection to server, stock hunchentoot might not be as good a fit (particularly if you might have lots of concurrent users) since it starts a thread per connection
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2015-04-13T02:34:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-04-13T02:34:51Z adlai: morning beach
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2015-04-13T02:36:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: Anyone else seeing a dark background and dark foreground for the code examples here? http://clacklisp.org/tutorial/02-getting-clack.html
2015-04-13T02:36:29Z linux_dream: yes I see it
2015-04-13T02:36:31Z adlai: Petit_Dejeuner: yes
2015-04-13T02:36:38Z linux_dream: just select the text with your mouse
2015-04-13T02:36:39Z beach: Me too.
2015-04-13T02:36:46Z linux_dream: to make it clearly visible
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2015-04-13T02:37:26Z beach: Clicking doesn't help here.
2015-04-13T02:37:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: I was just wondering if I should tell the admin.
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2015-04-13T02:37:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: Does anyone know if he's in here?
2015-04-13T02:37:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: I doubt that's on purpose.
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2015-04-13T02:43:57Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: I think you should tell the admin.
2015-04-13T02:44:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: Looks like it's already an issue on github.
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2015-04-13T02:54:03Z linux_dream: is CL21 dead?
2015-04-13T02:54:18Z linux_dream: or unactive? last commit seems about 9 months old
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2015-04-13T02:57:49Z beach: Was it ever alive?
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2015-04-13T03:00:23Z linux_dream: no idea :)
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2015-04-13T03:16:56Z beach: That's another psychological phenomenon that I ought to investigate some day, i.e. that all change is perceived as being for the better.  Politicians often run on "change" as the only program.  We often hear people here claiming that software that hasn't changed recently is dead.  And so on.
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2015-04-13T03:19:10Z pillton: Good morning beach.
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2015-04-13T03:20:14Z viaken: Isn't a large part of it due to the progressive movement?
2015-04-13T03:21:32Z beach: Might well be.
2015-04-13T03:21:41Z Zhivago: Presumably the assumption is that only bad things are up for change.
2015-04-13T03:21:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: We must move forwards, not backwards.
2015-04-13T03:21:51Z Zhivago: In which case the political argument is sensible.
2015-04-13T03:22:16Z theseb: Obama promised hope and change fwiw
2015-04-13T03:22:25Z Zhivago: Software that isn't under maintenance generally becomes progressively less usable, so that argument is also reasonable.
2015-04-13T03:22:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: That's the argument Clack makes in its intro.
2015-04-13T03:22:43Z Zhivago: This is perhaps largely because software mostly only works by accident.
2015-04-13T03:23:04Z Zhivago: And the circumstances of those accidents is not stable over moderate numbers of years.
2015-04-13T03:23:45Z viaken: Generally, the assumptions made during development of the software, the frameworks it was built upon, shift out from under it.
2015-04-13T03:24:09Z pillton: Zhivago: Have you read Critical Mass by Phillip Ball? You might like it.
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2015-04-13T03:26:49Z Zhivago: pillton: Nope.
2015-04-13T03:27:02Z beach: viaken: But that's a great advantage of Common Lisp vs (say) Python or Java.  It doesn't change much.
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2015-04-13T03:28:15Z theseb: beach: are you saying Python and Java change a lot?
2015-04-13T03:28:18Z linux_dream: are there recent books that teach common lisp?
2015-04-13T03:28:56Z beach: theseb: At some point, all GUI stuff in Java had to be rewritten because Sun changed the language.  As I recall, LAMBDA was removed from Python.
2015-04-13T03:29:16Z theseb: beach: they considered removing lambda but it stayed
2015-04-13T03:29:17Z beach: linux_dream: There we go again.  Why does it have to be recent?
2015-04-13T03:29:20Z axion: linux_dream: well CL is a spec, so you don't need anything terribly recent. i recommend PCL
2015-04-13T03:29:30Z beach: theseb: OK, my bad.
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2015-04-13T03:30:09Z theseb: beach: i think/hope now that Python/Java are more mature they don't change so much
2015-04-13T03:30:27Z theseb: beach: Python did the big 2 -> 3 transition but that was years ago
2015-04-13T03:30:37Z linux_dream: ok thanks
2015-04-13T03:30:53Z beach: theseb: Until they have an international standard issued by an independent organization, I would make no such assumption.
2015-04-13T03:31:18Z linux_dream: i think the support to python 2.7 will end in 2020 definitely
2015-04-13T03:32:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: Oh boy. I can put off learning Python3 for ~5 more years.
2015-04-13T03:32:57Z beach: theseb: And I would go one step further.  Any project leader of a commercial software project that decides to use a language without such an independent standard should be fired, unless he or she also made a significant risk analysis in which the possibility of the language changing had been taken into account.
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2015-04-13T03:34:47Z axion: Python3 is what convinced me to switch to CL exclusively
2015-04-13T03:34:54Z pillton: beach: I'm not sure about that argument. All you do is reinforce a local minima.
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2015-04-13T03:35:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: axion, Was it bad or did you just not want to spend time learning the same language again?
2015-04-13T03:35:58Z beach: pillton: So it's OK to put your entire company at risk without estimating the cost of that risk?
2015-04-13T03:36:40Z beach: pillton: You don't believe in risk analysis?  I think it is absolutely essential.
2015-04-13T03:37:11Z axion: Petit_Dejeuner: learning it was easy. The choices they made were bad. Plus, Python just got boring as a whole...many things annoyed me, such as the whitespace syntax, and the libraries are plentiful, but not really that great at what they do.
2015-04-13T03:38:26Z pillton: beach: Who cares if a business fails. The modern thought of ensuring companies survive is ridiculous.
2015-04-13T03:39:27Z axion: Petit_Dejeuner: I would have expected them to fix the existing issues, rather than just change the syntax to be even less pleasing. To this day, there are still projects that haven't adopted 3 as a result.
2015-04-13T03:39:27Z beach: pillton: Globally, perhaps.  But employees of a company ought to have an interest in its survival.  That's their duty to the share holders.
2015-04-13T03:40:42Z H4ns: beach: it is one thing to have a language which is changed randomly, outside of your control, and with unclear motive, and another to have a language that cannot change because it is dead.
2015-04-13T03:40:56Z smokeink: how to view the current debugging and optimization levels ?
2015-04-13T03:41:05Z beach: H4ns: Hence the risk analysis.
2015-04-13T03:41:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: axion, I haven't really looked into it. Most of what I know about 3 is based around what's incompatabile with 2. The "print" function/statement thing and the range/xrange thing. How have they made the syntax worse?
2015-04-13T03:41:25Z H4ns: beach: i think risk analysis is good, but it is also complicated and the status of the programming language used is only a tiny part of what contributes to overall risk in a development company.
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2015-04-13T03:42:31Z beach: H4ns: The risk may be small, but the consequences for some projects might be huge.  That's the interesting part; trying to estimate something small multiplied by something huge.
2015-04-13T03:42:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: How does someone quantify the stability of a language?
2015-04-13T03:43:14Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Do you know about risk analysis?
2015-04-13T03:43:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: No.
2015-04-13T03:43:26Z axion: Petit_Dejeuner: many things are bad choices IMO. For example. 3/2 is no longer 1, but 1.5
2015-04-13T03:43:30Z H4ns: beach: i think it makes a lot of sense to talk about the prospected longevity of systems early in the development process.  this is something that is done way too seldomly.
2015-04-13T03:43:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: axion, Ah, I'd forgotten about the division change. That's lame.
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2015-04-13T03:44:21Z pillton: beach: Of course I believe in risk analysis, but not at the expense of stagnation.
2015-04-13T03:44:29Z beach: H4ns: Yes, not nearly often enough.
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2015-04-13T03:45:37Z beach: pillton: That would be part of the risk analysis as well.  My point is that many projects don't even consider making such an analysis.
2015-04-13T03:46:20Z pillton: beach: Perhaps there isn't scope for one.
2015-04-13T03:46:53Z beach: pillton: If you consider risk analysis and stagnation to be in conflict, you are essentially already making a risk analysis in which you consider stagnation has having infinite cost compared to making a risk analysis.
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2015-04-13T03:47:22Z beach: pillton: Only a risk analysis can determine whether there was reason to make one.
2015-04-13T03:47:50Z beach: pillton: I take it your project doesn't believe in risk analyses. :)
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2015-04-13T03:48:33Z pillton: A risk analysis implies you know everything.
2015-04-13T03:48:40Z beach: Not at all.
2015-04-13T03:48:44Z pillton: I don't know everything.
2015-04-13T03:48:53Z beach: Where did you get such an idea?
2015-04-13T03:49:04Z jasom: It implies you at least know enough to make educated guesses
2015-04-13T03:49:08Z pillton: From experience.
2015-04-13T03:49:58Z jasom: A non-trivial (but still minority) amount of software development is cutting-edge enough that you don't know enough to make educated guesses.
2015-04-13T03:50:32Z beach: "I have no idea" can very well be the estimate of a risk.
2015-04-13T03:50:49Z beach: Then that would have to be weighed against the consequences if it happens.
2015-04-13T03:51:29Z jasom: "I have no idea what the odds of this project suceeding" doesn't seem like a useful risk analysis
2015-04-13T03:51:51Z beach: jasom: Whether the project succeeds or not is not part of the risk analysis.
2015-04-13T03:52:08Z beach: I can't believe I have to argue about this.
2015-04-13T03:52:55Z theseb: beach: i don't know why but iirc guido (python creator/leader) says he doesn't believe in specs for some reason
2015-04-13T03:53:15Z beach: theseb: wow.
2015-04-13T03:53:42Z theseb: beach: also...a spec may be nice from a platonic ideal perspective but there are lots of data points of cos that do make successful businesses with python..e.g. Dropbox
2015-04-13T03:53:48Z axion: he also doesnt believe in TCR
2015-04-13T03:53:50Z beach: "I think for this project we should use a language that is based on the whims of a man that doesn't believe in specifications."
2015-04-13T03:54:18Z beach: "And also, let's not analyze the risk of that language changing, because after all, change is better than stagnation."
2015-04-13T03:54:42Z pillton: What is TCR?
2015-04-13T03:55:09Z axion: TRE rather
2015-04-13T03:55:16Z pillton: What is TRE?
2015-04-13T03:55:25Z theseb: beach: i'm only guessing but he probably takes the M$ Windows approach..basically maybe he thinks what he releases *is* the standard and we should just get over it
2015-04-13T03:55:27Z axion: tail recursion elimination
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2015-04-13T03:56:20Z Aleksyaz: shop open?
2015-04-13T03:56:28Z theseb: beach: think about if you had a monopoly...why would you want to submit to a spec? if you're god just make everyone follow you i guess
2015-04-13T03:57:08Z theseb: beach: and even if guido went crazy and changed the language badly in next release..your co could just still use the older versions for 20 years
2015-04-13T03:57:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: axion, If it's any good, it should optimize all tail calls, not just recursive ones.
2015-04-13T03:57:11Z beach: theseb: I fully understand why they behave like that.  I don't understand their clients though.
2015-04-13T03:57:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: theseb, knock on wood
2015-04-13T03:57:45Z axion: Petit_Dejeuner: you can read his biased stance here: http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2009/04/tail-recursion-elimination.html
2015-04-13T03:58:08Z beach: theseb: You probably couldn't without a team of language experts that maintain the compiler/interpreter as the OS underneath changes.  Hence the risk analysis.
2015-04-13T03:58:22Z jasom: the title alone is a good indication he doesn't understand it.  TRE is a special facse of TCO
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2015-04-13T03:58:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: axion, ah, right. I've read this probably ten times now. I'll read it again so I can be mad about something.
2015-04-13T03:59:02Z theseb: beach: i got a solution for that too.....just run a VM for 20 years ;)
2015-04-13T03:59:31Z beach: theseb: You could get yourself hired as a project leader in many places I know.
2015-04-13T03:59:44Z theseb: lol
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2015-04-13T04:00:41Z theseb: beach: how about this....in *theory* language churn is a concern....in *practice* it usually happens so SLOWLY it isn't something to lose sleep over
2015-04-13T04:01:19Z theseb: most codebases die or are rewritten/iterated before the new lang versions
2015-04-13T04:01:38Z beach: theseb: Right.  That's part of the MO of many project leaders, or rather "I am not going to worry about this, because before the project is finished, I will have moved to a different company, using this project to justify a pay raise."
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2015-04-13T04:01:58Z beach: theseb: I have seen it SO many times.
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2015-04-13T04:02:33Z H4ns: the real problem is maintenance in long-living systems:  if you don't upgrade the deployed system to follow changes in languages, libraries and operating systems over time, they become unmaintainable quickly.  and that is largely independent of the language used.
2015-04-13T04:02:36Z theseb: beach: take Dropbox for example.....i don't work there but i can assume they are obsessively innovating all the time such that no codebase stands still there for long anyways
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2015-04-13T04:02:51Z pillton: beach: I have seen that. It is terrible.
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2015-04-13T04:03:23Z pillton: beach: There was a project here that won an award on project management before it was finished.
2015-04-13T04:03:34Z beach: Amazing!
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2015-04-13T04:04:57Z theseb: H4ns: IT is a pretty frenetic industry...i wonder if in 20 years it will be like the steel industry and slow the hell down so that everything doesn't change every 4 years anymore
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2015-04-13T04:05:47Z H4ns: theseb: that is a nice hope to have :)
2015-04-13T04:06:02Z pillton: theseb: I doubt it.
2015-04-13T04:06:42Z H4ns: i think that a few it related catastrophies will create enough motivation on the business and legislation side to make the madness stop.
2015-04-13T04:06:45Z theseb: H4ns, pillton: it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine that in 20 years we'll have a dominant binary standard like some virtual machine that runs in the browser
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2015-04-13T04:07:00Z H4ns: right now, we techs still like to think of ourselves as the rulers of the world
2015-04-13T04:07:12Z jasom: H4ns: not to name any names, but the automitive sector has already made huge changes interally since the Toyota lawsuit
2015-04-13T04:07:12Z H4ns: "fuck, i like this new language, let me put it into production real quick"
2015-04-13T04:07:20Z theseb: H4ns, pillton: if you've ever heard of asm.js....that has potential
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2015-04-13T04:08:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: So really, JavaScript is one of the best choices for writing a server. It's standardized and has several effecient implementations.
2015-04-13T04:08:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: node.js is the tool of expert engineers
2015-04-13T04:09:11Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner: i don't like JS so much but i do like idea of compiling languages to JS to avoid it :)
2015-04-13T04:09:12Z pillton: theseb: In 20 years from now I hope to have my sense of smell back and have my senses augmented.
2015-04-13T04:10:18Z theseb: pillton: bionic people!
2015-04-13T04:10:57Z pillton: If the browser still exists in 20 years then I will be disappointed. Hopefully jasom will be here to keep me entertained.
2015-04-13T04:11:15Z theseb: pillton: why would browser go away?
2015-04-13T04:11:24Z theseb: pillton: i can't see going anywhere
2015-04-13T04:11:27Z jasom: apparently I'm entertaining
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2015-04-13T04:11:47Z theseb: pillton: people will obviously just keep adding more features to browser
2015-04-13T04:11:48Z jasom: theseb: mosaic was released about 20 years ago
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2015-04-13T04:12:09Z theseb: pillton: now browser can do video, audio, 3D, VR...not sure what you're missing
2015-04-13T04:12:19Z pillton: theseb: Great! Then jasom can tell me how crap they all are.
2015-04-13T04:12:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: Eventually they'll make machines that can run JavaScript natively and the whole thing is just a browser.
2015-04-13T04:13:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: Lisp machine joke goes here.
2015-04-13T04:13:30Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner: that's not as far fetched as you might think
2015-04-13T04:13:42Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner: i saw a vid about putting asm.js in linux kernel and that being your OS
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2015-04-13T04:14:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: The one where he runs his browser inside his browser inside his browser?
2015-04-13T04:14:33Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript
2015-04-13T04:14:35Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner: yes ;)
2015-04-13T04:14:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ah, I've seen it.
2015-04-13T04:14:50Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner: i love that one...seen it twice
2015-04-13T04:14:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: wat is good too
2015-04-13T04:15:15Z Petit_Dejeuner: Actually, everyone I've seen on there is good.
2015-04-13T04:16:07Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner: just found that... https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
2015-04-13T04:16:10Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner: what's that about?
2015-04-13T04:16:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's about weird things in Ruby and JavaScript.
2015-04-13T04:16:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: Humurous.
2015-04-13T04:16:37Z theseb: ah
2015-04-13T04:16:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: So is the "using ur types good" one.
2015-04-13T04:16:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: But it's about how Java is dynamic weak typing.
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2015-04-13T05:27:24Z Aleksyaz: Does Common Lisp offer good facilities to handle strings, via regexs maybe?
2015-04-13T05:27:52Z pillton: Aleksyaz: Checkout cl-ppcre.
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2015-04-13T05:28:48Z Aleksyaz: m'k
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2015-04-13T05:29:04Z pillton doesn't know what that means.
2015-04-13T05:29:19Z Aleksyaz: = "ok"
2015-04-13T05:29:29Z Zhivago: There are decent regex libraries that operate on strings.
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2015-04-13T05:30:43Z beach: Aleksyaz: http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/
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2015-04-13T05:31:07Z Aleksyaz: beach: cool; thanks
2015-04-13T05:31:37Z beach: Aleksyaz: As I understand it, it is "Perl-Compatible", but also much faster than the Perl version.
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2015-04-13T05:42:29Z H4ns: it is not "much faster" in general, but its performance is competitive.
2015-04-13T05:42:48Z beach: Oh.  OK.  I'll try to remember that.
2015-04-13T05:44:00Z Fare: for a user interface to cl-ppcre, I much prefer optima.ppcre to the builtin API of cl-ppcre
2015-04-13T05:44:57Z Fare: see an example usage here: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/frideau/fare-unbaked/tree/master/toggle-touchpad.lisp
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2015-04-13T05:45:34Z Aleksyaz: Fare: thank you
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2015-04-13T05:48:06Z Aleksyaz: I suppose it's when looking for a needle in a haystack over 400 GiB of data that a regex lib will show its mettle
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2015-04-13T05:49:04Z Fare: you may want to distribute such a job
2015-04-13T05:49:11Z SAL9000: if you're doing something with 400 GiB of data, you probably shouldn't be using regex
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2015-04-13T05:56:53Z Aleksyaz: that's probably worst case, and unlikely; it'll be 10 to 20 GiB more likely.
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2015-04-13T06:06:36Z emaczen: has anyone successfully built the ECL source for android?
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2015-04-13T06:55:44Z loke: emaczen: does it work on Android?
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2015-04-13T07:12:07Z p_l: loke: nothing stops it from working on android, and i believe someone did have an example setup
2015-04-13T07:12:33Z loke: SBCL has ARM support now too.
2015-04-13T07:14:18Z pillton: emaczen: Have you looked at https://github.com/ageneau/ecl-android ?
2015-04-13T07:14:19Z p_l: loke: last time i checked, SBCL stillcould not be compiled into relocatable shared library
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2015-04-13T07:14:45Z p_l: which is the requirement
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2015-04-13T07:15:37Z loke: p_l: it's only a requiremenet when loaded from a Java harness though. What if you run it as a pure native? (that said, when you do, you only have a very small number of API's available, like GLES. So it's mainly designed for games)
2015-04-13T07:17:05Z p_l: loke: you don't run android then - native activity support is based on being loaded as library from the same harness as dalvik applications
2015-04-13T07:17:31Z loke: OK, perhaps it is. I never actually did anything with native activity
2015-04-13T07:17:54Z p_l: because said loading sets you up with the right access rights, context etc
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2015-04-13T07:18:35Z loke: I'm thinking there may be other issues with loading SBCL apart from it being relocatable.
2015-04-13T07:19:30Z loke: I once tried to load the JVM into SBCL using CFFI and it collided severely with the JVM
2015-04-13T07:19:30Z p_l: nativeactivity simply let you jump straight into native code (interestingly, ART-based phones might do similar thing for java-environment too)
2015-04-13T07:19:54Z p_l: probably signals and the like
2015-04-13T07:20:00Z loke: I'm thinking ART probably does a lot of similar things as the jvm
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2015-04-13T07:20:17Z loke: (the JVM traps SEGV for GC purposes, for example)
2015-04-13T07:20:34Z p_l: ART, most importantly, precompiles into ELF
2015-04-13T07:20:40Z loke: It might be a better idea to run SBCL as a separate process and communicate using some kind of RPC
2015-04-13T07:20:53Z p_l: and trapping SIGSEGV is obvious
2015-04-13T07:21:05Z loke: Well, SBCL also traps SEGV, doesn't it?
2015-04-13T07:21:16Z loke: so that's why the JVM and SBCL can't live in the same process.
2015-04-13T07:21:41Z p_l: loke: on Android, running as separate process might not be very usable
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2015-04-13T07:22:09Z p_l: SL4A did so, though
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2015-04-13T07:22:23Z loke: SL4A?
2015-04-13T07:22:27Z loke: What is SL?
2015-04-13T07:23:50Z p_l: scripting languages for android, an early project to run pytthon, perl, ruby etc
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2015-04-13T07:25:39Z loke: There is another benefit to running externally; it won't get killed by the system
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2015-04-13T07:30:26Z Posterdati: hi
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2015-04-13T07:34:13Z p_l: loke: it will
2015-04-13T07:34:48Z p_l: loke: the difference is that it won't get a message of "impending kill, please save your data"
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2015-04-13T07:46:51Z loke: p_l: well, the controlling Android process would get that signal
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2015-04-13T07:48:06Z p_l: loke: any "non-android" process can get killed, because killing is done by OOM killer
2015-04-13T07:48:21Z p_l: android processes just get extra control over that
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2015-04-13T08:10:36Z smokeink: I have the file /home/smokeink/morse.lisp on my remote server which has swank running. My emacs can connect to swank but when i try to compile that file with C-c C-k it gives this error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147015
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2015-04-13T08:31:14Z smokeink: swank/backend.lisp filename-to-parthname calls it
2015-04-13T08:31:28Z elderK: Hey guys, I was wondering what experiences you may have had with Lisp implementations on Windows?
2015-04-13T08:31:36Z elderK: Particularly SBCL and ECL.
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2015-04-13T08:31:46Z elderK: :) Let me know how you've found them on Windows.
2015-04-13T08:32:02Z elderK: Also - experiences with creating binaries suitable for distribution, too.
2015-04-13T08:32:28Z splittist: elderK: over the years I've found sbcl pretty pleasant on Windows. I've never created a binary for distribution.
2015-04-13T08:33:09Z elderK: How is SBCL's support for threading?
2015-04-13T08:33:30Z elderK: I read something long ago that said it's thread support for Windows was lacking. Maybe it has changed?
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2015-04-13T08:37:26Z loke: elderK: It has changed, afaik
2015-04-13T08:37:37Z loke: threading works fine on most platforms
2015-04-13T08:37:40Z splittist: elderK: it has. In fact, I don't think you can build /without/ threads in Windows now.
2015-04-13T08:38:04Z elderK: Well that's cool :)
2015-04-13T08:38:22Z elderK: Next question I guess is are there restrictions regarding distributing software built using SBCL? Like, closed source software?
2015-04-13T08:38:43Z loke: elderK: None
2015-04-13T08:38:54Z elderK: Holy crap. Really?
2015-04-13T08:38:55Z elderK: Wow
2015-04-13T08:38:58Z elderK: That's fantastic!
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2015-04-13T08:39:09Z Shinmera: SBCL is mostly public domain or MIT, iirc
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2015-04-13T08:39:34Z loke: "All changes to SBCL since the fork from CMU CL have been released into
2015-04-13T08:39:35Z loke: the public domain in jurisdictions where this is possible, or under
2015-04-13T08:39:35Z loke: the FreeBSD licence where not."
2015-04-13T08:40:01Z loke: It's pretty much as permissive as it can get
2015-04-13T08:40:12Z elderK: Sweet. I'll have to go over the FBSD license.
2015-04-13T08:40:17Z elderK: But that's awesome! REally.
2015-04-13T08:40:29Z elderK: There should be nothing to stop me creating my product in Lisp! YAY!
2015-04-13T08:40:29Z elderK: :D
2015-04-13T08:40:32Z elderK: Happy days.
2015-04-13T08:40:47Z elderK: You wouldn't believe how intensely sick of C-likes I am getting...
2015-04-13T08:40:50Z loke is doing a (probably) commercial web application in CL
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2015-04-13T08:41:06Z loke: It's using SBCL (although I'm retying to get it to build properly on ABCL too)
2015-04-13T08:41:37Z elderK: Problems because of using extensions?
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2015-04-13T08:42:06Z elderK: Also, btw, out of curiosity, what's the closest Lispy thing to loading a DLL or Shared Object plugin?
2015-04-13T08:42:08Z loke: No. ABCL doesn't build certain dependent libraries
2015-04-13T08:42:12Z elderK: Like, for programs you create in Lisp?
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2015-04-13T08:42:31Z elderK: Other than actually loading a DLL or SO :P
2015-04-13T08:42:41Z loke: elderK: What do you mean? You mean loading external loadules? Written in what language?
2015-04-13T08:43:05Z elderK: Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be a .so or .dll say
2015-04-13T08:43:13Z elderK: but a plugin, effectively.
2015-04-13T08:43:27Z elderK: Written in Lisp, hopefully.
2015-04-13T08:43:44Z elderK: For loading DLLS and stuff I figure you'd use CFFI or something
2015-04-13T08:43:55Z loke: elderK: Yes
2015-04-13T08:43:57Z elderK: But I'd really like to avoid dropping to C/C++.
2015-04-13T08:44:07Z elderK: I'm so sick of C/C++
2015-04-13T08:44:09Z loke: for normal lisp moldules you'd just load the code
2015-04-13T08:44:23Z elderK: And not being able to utilize C++'s features across module boundaries, especially on Windows.
2015-04-13T08:45:00Z elderK: How would you restrict code loaded to specific "public" interfaces?
2015-04-13T08:45:05Z elderK: I'm a lisp neophyte, you see :)
2015-04-13T08:45:18Z elderK: I've been playing with Scheme for years. But not so much with CL
2015-04-13T08:45:28Z elderK: And I've never written anything serious in either.
2015-04-13T08:45:38Z elderK: Just tinkering and experimenting with interpreters and such
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2015-04-13T08:49:55Z loke: elderK: You can't restrict like that, unless you make your plugins use a different langgae
2015-04-13T08:50:14Z elderK: Surely you must be able to? :)
2015-04-13T08:50:18Z loke: elderK: but then again, there is no preventing that on C++ either.
2015-04-13T08:50:25Z elderK: Good point.
2015-04-13T08:50:31Z Shinmera: How would you be able to?
2015-04-13T08:50:47Z elderK: I guess it comes down to the same thing: If people want to interact with your software, they'll write their plugins to utilize whatever interfaces you define.
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2015-04-13T08:55:12Z loke: elderK: I suggest you focus on building your product first :-)
2015-04-13T08:55:57Z elderK: Aye :)
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2015-04-13T09:06:00Z smokeink: how to run slime tests? https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/slime-tests.el
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2015-04-13T09:25:45Z elderK: loke: What's the dominant unit test framework for CL, btw? :)
2015-04-13T09:26:01Z loke: elderK: There are many. One of the reasons is that it's so easy to write one.
2015-04-13T09:26:10Z loke: Most people seem to favour Fiveam though.
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2015-04-13T09:26:19Z loke: I migrated from cl-unit2 to fiveam
2015-04-13T09:26:32Z elderK: Alrighty.
2015-04-13T09:26:42Z elderK: Next!
2015-04-13T09:26:42Z elderK: :P
2015-04-13T09:26:54Z elderK: Is there a doxygen analogue for CL?
2015-04-13T09:27:27Z H4ns: many of them.  it is so easy to write one!
2015-04-13T09:27:46Z loke: H4ns: : Indeed. I wrote such a tool: https://github.com/lokedhs/docbrowser
2015-04-13T09:27:52Z loke: It's available on Quicklisp
2015-04-13T09:28:11Z Shinmera: As did I. http://shinmera.github.io/staple/
2015-04-13T09:28:14Z elderK: Fantastic.
2015-04-13T09:28:27Z elderK: It's a shame SlimV works so horribly with ECL. I like ECL.
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2015-04-13T09:28:33Z elderK: Thankfully, it works awesomely with SBCL.
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2015-04-13T09:29:04Z loke: elderK: Or, you cab just suck it up and use Emacs like everybody else. There is even Evil mode if you insist on using VI editing modes.
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2015-04-13T09:29:36Z elderK: Aye.
2015-04-13T09:29:59Z loke: Shinmera: Can't you include a web server in staple like I did?
2015-04-13T09:30:21Z loke: Generating html files feels a bit cumbersome
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2015-04-13T09:30:58Z Shinmera: I could easily enough. Staple was designed for generating static off-line files though, so I never thought about that.
2015-04-13T09:31:37Z Shinmera: That sounds like a neat addition, actually. Thanks! I'll add it to my ever-growing todo.
2015-04-13T09:32:24Z Shinmera: I should also get around to designing a template that isn't as bare-bones as the current Staple default.
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2015-04-13T09:33:08Z Shinmera: Currently I'm busy fighting Qt's braindead layouts though, and I don't know when I'll be done with that. :/
2015-04-13T09:33:21Z loke: Shinmera: What are you using qt for?
2015-04-13T09:33:37Z Shinmera: Parasol, a painting application.
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2015-04-13T09:34:39Z Shinmera: You can make fantastic pieces of art like this https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/585830704195469312
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2015-04-13T09:35:25Z loke: Shinmera: Is it a CL application?
2015-04-13T09:35:49Z Shinmera: It is, yes. I don't dare to touch C++.
2015-04-13T09:35:58Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/parasol
2015-04-13T09:36:27Z loke: Shinmera: is it on QL?
2015-04-13T09:36:33Z Shinmera: No
2015-04-13T09:36:52Z Shinmera: And it won't be for a good while either. It's not in a state where it would be actually useful for much.
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2015-04-13T09:37:42Z loke: Shinmera: I don't see how that is different from a lot of other QL packages
2015-04-13T09:38:11Z loke: Remember, your value as a human being is determined by the number of published QL packages you have.
2015-04-13T09:38:29Z Shinmera: It's different from the QL packages that /I/ put onto QL. My things only go there once they have a release.
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2015-04-13T09:38:43Z loke: Fair enough, that's actually true for me too :-)
2015-04-13T09:39:02Z Shinmera: Plus I have plenty of my projects on QL already.
2015-04-13T09:39:30Z loke: How many?
2015-04-13T09:39:35Z loke has 4, I think
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2015-04-13T09:40:10Z Shinmera: 33.
2015-04-13T09:40:14Z loke: Wow
2015-04-13T09:40:21Z Shinmera: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues?q=is%3Aissue+author%3AShinmera+is%3Aclosed
2015-04-13T09:40:24Z loke bows his head in humiliation
2015-04-13T09:40:35Z Shinmera shrugs
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2015-04-13T09:40:47Z Shinmera: (it lists 34, but one ticket is a repo change request)
2015-04-13T09:40:54Z loke: WTF, I'm not using any of your packages!?
2015-04-13T09:41:16Z Shinmera: I'm not surprised
2015-04-13T09:42:12Z loke: Ratify... I might take a look at that one
2015-04-13T09:43:23Z loke: These are mine: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+author%3Alokedhs+is%3Aclosed+
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2015-04-13T09:44:34Z Shinmera: What kind of services does cl-gdata provide access to?
2015-04-13T09:44:43Z loke: Hmm
2015-04-13T09:44:59Z loke: Drive, Docs, Spreadsheet, Contacts
2015-04-13T09:45:13Z loke: Photos
2015-04-13T09:45:26Z loke: Calendar (but that's very limited)
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2015-04-13T09:45:50Z Shinmera: Ah-- too bad. If it had included maps and search I could've replaced my own JSON hacks.
2015-04-13T09:46:05Z loke: Search and maps don't use gdata
2015-04-13T09:46:13Z Shinmera: I see.
2015-04-13T09:46:33Z loke: gdata is their Atom-based API's, which they seem to be moving away from.
2015-04-13T09:46:42Z fe[nl]ix_: loke: if you have any issues with Fiveam, please let me know
2015-04-13T09:46:54Z loke: Which is kinda sag, because it's neat to have a uniform api
2015-04-13T09:47:15Z loke: fenlix: In fact, I have had some issues with it, but I can't remember what the was now :-)
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2015-04-13T09:47:36Z loke: I think my biggest problem with fiveam was the documentation :-)
2015-04-13T09:47:43Z Shinmera: The trend is REST/JSON, which is fine in the case of google because their docs are good. Can't say the same for other services (cough tumblr)
2015-04-13T09:47:56Z fe[nl]ix_: loke: in what sense ?
2015-04-13T09:48:53Z loke: fenlix: it was difficult to get started because the documentation didn't really take me to the solution in an easy A, B, C kinda way. Instead it was like A, X, Z, G, E... With B completely missing
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2015-04-13T09:51:25Z loke: fenlix: The documentation seems auto-generated from sources?
2015-04-13T09:51:35Z loke: It's more of a reference doc
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2015-04-13T09:59:22Z elderK: Thanks for your help guys.
2015-04-13T09:59:23Z elderK: Night!
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2015-04-13T09:59:46Z loke: Night!?
2015-04-13T09:59:53Z loke: You're in thw wrong timzeone obviously.
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2015-04-13T10:42:11Z SAL9000: loke: it's called the IRC timezone. When you join/return, it's morning, when you part/AFK it's night
2015-04-13T10:42:26Z loke: SAL9000: good point. I'll try to remember that.
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2015-04-13T15:00:46Z drmeister: Hello
2015-04-13T15:01:26Z Xach: hi drmeister
2015-04-13T15:01:30Z drmeister: It appears that I've been locked out of the #lisp channel for a few days.
2015-04-13T15:01:38Z drmeister: Xach: Great - I'm back.
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2015-04-13T15:03:23Z drmeister: I've had an annoying problem with the pretty-printer that has been going on for a while - I wonder if #lisp(ers) could suggest what might be going on.
2015-04-13T15:03:29Z drmeister: Here's a test case:
2015-04-13T15:05:48Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147025
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2015-04-13T15:07:31Z drmeister: Here's another - I insert three more characters before the ~a and the pattern changes:
2015-04-13T15:07:32Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147026
2015-04-13T15:08:28Z drmeister: Why am I getting this repeating pattern rather than the proper output?  Why does it depend on the number of characters preceding the pretty-printed form?  These are all mysteries to me.
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2015-04-13T15:09:33Z drmeister: My guess is the column counting or arithmetic with the column is screwed up somehow.   A math routine could be screwed up - I've checked FLOOR and ROUND but they are working fine and only ROUND was used in this example.
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2015-04-13T15:10:31Z drmeister: This is stock ECL pretty printer code running within Clasp
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2015-04-13T15:11:13Z Xof: what does your pretty printer function for (cons function) look like?
2015-04-13T15:11:18Z drmeister: It is pretty printer code written for the CMU Common Lisp project written by William Lott
2015-04-13T15:11:40Z Xof: ha
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2015-04-13T15:12:05Z Xof: ok.  Where does your implementation of pretty-printing streams come from?
2015-04-13T15:12:09Z drmeister: (CONS FUNCTION)
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2015-04-13T15:12:48Z drmeister: Xof: The Gray streams implementation is a combination of translated C code from ECL and my own handiwork.
2015-04-13T15:13:02Z drmeister: So the bug may lie in there as well.
2015-04-13T15:13:26Z drmeister: So we aren't debugging the ECL pretty-printing code, I'm pretty sure that's fine but rather my underlying implementation.
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2015-04-13T15:14:00Z drmeister: This bug shows up rarely - most pretty printed forms look fine.
2015-04-13T15:14:35Z Xof: yes.  It looks like some buffer is overwritten
2015-04-13T15:14:40Z drmeister: It seems to be a combination of large form + indented by > 20 characters and (I think) pretty printing the FUNCTION special operator that triggers it.
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2015-04-13T15:22:14Z drmeister: This is new for me - I'm redirecting *error-output* and *trace-output* to the file "/tmp/error.log" - that works well.  I can generate debugging output that doesn't interfere with the pretty printed output.
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2015-04-13T15:24:48Z emaczen: Can anyone help me with android and ECL? jackdaniel: I never got a verification after signing up for the ecl mailing list.
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2015-04-13T15:27:37Z clop: wow, read-line is lightning fast on sbcl compared to ccl
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2015-04-13T15:31:31Z Xach: clop: really? i have never compared head-to-head, but sbcl's text reading has always seemed pretty sluggish to me.
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2015-04-13T15:32:12Z Xach: clop: what is the sbcl external format in this case?
2015-04-13T15:33:00Z clop: Xach: I'm seeing around 6.6x faster for a dumb loop that sums line lengths in a 34 MB file from /dev/shm, just using with-open-file, whatever format that uses
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2015-04-13T15:34:01Z Xach: clop: the format depends on your environment, which you can see with "locale"
2015-04-13T15:34:03Z clop: i suppose the format could be a big deal, e.g., for error checking
2015-04-13T15:34:27Z Xach: clop: you can also check sb-impl::*default-external-format*
2015-04-13T15:35:12Z clop: looks like my LANG=en_US.UTF-8 and SBCL's *default-external-format* is :UTF-8
2015-04-13T15:36:18Z Xach: interesting. it's not skipping any work, then.
2015-04-13T15:39:52Z shka: hi all
2015-04-13T15:40:02Z Xach: I wound up making a cdb reader for quicklisp because straight flat-file access was just too slow.
2015-04-13T15:40:06Z Xach: (in sbcl)
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2015-04-13T15:54:57Z drmeister: How do I get CL to stop printing #1= and #1# in debugging output?
2015-04-13T15:55:49Z jdz: clhs *print-circle*
2015-04-13T15:55:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cir.htm
2015-04-13T15:55:53Z jasom: drmeister: *print-circle*
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2015-04-13T15:56:44Z drmeister: I'm setting that to NIL before I run my test - I'm still getting #1= and #1# in the output - it's probably setting it internally - correct?  Is there a way to override it?
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2015-04-13T15:58:23Z jdz: drmeister: maybe the advise facility...
2015-04-13T15:58:26Z scymtym__: Xach: i think Douglas Katzman made some performance improvements to SBCL's reader
2015-04-13T15:58:45Z drmeister: advise?
2015-04-13T15:59:11Z jasom: drmeister: none of the CL builtins starting with prin will bind *print-circle*
2015-04-13T15:59:44Z pjb: jasom: wrong.
2015-04-13T15:59:56Z pjb: oh, starting wtih prin, ok, true.
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2015-04-13T16:00:27Z fe[nl]ix_ laughs
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2015-04-13T16:01:30Z digiorgi: about unit testing in CL... any standard library to launch them automatically?
2015-04-13T16:01:52Z jasom: digiorgi: automatically when?
2015-04-13T16:01:59Z Shinmera: and automatically how
2015-04-13T16:02:31Z pjb: digiorgi: asdf does that: (asdf:oos 'asdf:test-op :system)
2015-04-13T16:02:40Z pjb: automatic launch of the tests for that system.
2015-04-13T16:05:07Z digiorgi: ohoo thanks, i will research the asdf test functionalities.
2015-04-13T16:05:34Z rj-code is now known as rjcode
2015-04-13T16:05:54Z Shinmera: digiorgi: Have a look-see at https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/311
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2015-04-13T16:15:10Z digiorgi: Shinmera: thanks that was easy to read (:
2015-04-13T16:15:23Z Shinmera: Glad it served its purpose.
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2015-04-13T16:16:43Z digiorgi: it's very hard to get started with CL in comparison with other languages.
2015-04-13T16:16:53Z Shinmera: I heartily disagree
2015-04-13T16:16:56Z pjb: Why would it be so?
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2015-04-13T16:17:07Z pjb: Just read Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
2015-04-13T16:18:23Z dlowe: The language is fairly easy to get into, but the tooling has a steep learning curve.
2015-04-13T16:19:05Z digiorgi: it's not true... to get CL working, you have to know emacs, configure it, download a compiler, compile the compiler, learn about the package manager, and i cant get the function related to some object in an easy way
2015-04-13T16:19:26Z Shinmera: I didn't have to do any of that.
2015-04-13T16:19:27Z pjb: same as every other programming language or application.
2015-04-13T16:19:52Z pjb: If you can't edit files, download a program, compile it, learn about the package manager to do so, you can't do anything with a computer.
2015-04-13T16:19:54Z Shinmera: I just downloaded a compiler, which wasn't any more difficult than any other compiler I ever used.
2015-04-13T16:20:29Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2015-04-13T16:21:02Z dlowe: the first step is acceptance that there's a problem
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2015-04-13T16:21:54Z pjb: dlowe: the solution is Clozure CL.app in the appstore.  Just click on the "GET" button and double click on the icon.
2015-04-13T16:22:07Z pjb: If you want to use other systems, then learn how to do stuff yourself
2015-04-13T16:22:38Z dlowe: pjb: Probably true, but has the unfortunate prerequisite of "use a Mac"
2015-04-13T16:22:51Z dlowe: There's Lispworks for windows, I guess
2015-04-13T16:22:53Z pjb: That's about my point.
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2015-04-13T16:34:56Z emaczen: So, if I run SBCL I can (asdf:load-system :parenscriptx) but if I run ABCL, it tells me that it doesn't know how to require parenscriptx. I'm not really sure what else to do, but I have both .asd's of parenscript and parenscriptx not through quicklisp
2015-04-13T16:35:32Z emaczen: parenscriptx is not on quicklisp btw
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2015-04-13T16:36:13Z easye: emaczen: how have you added the parenscriptx asd to ASDF?
2015-04-13T16:37:10Z emaczen: it is on the same path as all of my other common lisp projects
2015-04-13T16:37:18Z easye: Which path is that?
2015-04-13T16:37:25Z emaczen: easye: let me look at those details real quick
2015-04-13T16:39:13Z emaczen: easye: inside ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/cl-projects.conf I have added a path and parenscriptx is on this path along with all of my other common lisp projects
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2015-04-13T16:39:33Z easye: emaczen: that sounds right.
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2015-04-13T16:40:15Z emaczen: easye: Yeah, I'm guessing it is some ABCL initialization thing
2015-04-13T16:40:37Z easye: Shouldn't be.  ASDF works pretty well, at least in the latest version.
2015-04-13T16:40:58Z easye: Oh, so what does LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-VERSION for ABCL return?
2015-04-13T16:41:19Z emaczen: "1.3.1"
2015-04-13T16:41:19Z emaczen: "OpenJDK_64-Bit_Server_VM-Oracle_Corporation-1.8.0_40-b25"
2015-04-13T16:41:19Z emaczen: "amd64-Linux-3.17.4-301.fc21.x86_64"
2015-04-13T16:41:40Z easye: emaczen: just a sec.  Trying with abcl-1.4.0-dev
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2015-04-13T16:42:38Z emaczen: easye: are you an ABCL contributer?
2015-04-13T16:42:46Z easye: Yes.  Why?
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2015-04-13T16:43:31Z akkad lols at the "asdf/quicklisp conspiracy" email
2015-04-13T16:43:55Z emaczen: I don't really know that much about ABCL and what it can/can't do and what is recommended.
2015-04-13T16:44:24Z easye: emaczen: parenscriptx loads for me under both abcl-1.3.1 and abcl-1.4.0-dev, so I think something is funky with your cl-projects.conf file.
2015-04-13T16:44:33Z emaczen: easye: I've experimented with hunchentoot and SBCL for the first time last week and was happy with some of the results that I was able to achieve -- should I use hunchentoot with ABCL?
2015-04-13T16:44:40Z akkad: easye: abcl getting a lot of love these days?
2015-04-13T16:44:51Z easye uses Hunchentoot in production with ABCL.  
2015-04-13T16:44:56Z easye: But it depends on what you need.
2015-04-13T16:45:17Z akkad: nice
2015-04-13T16:45:23Z easye: parenscriptx is from <git+https://github.com/jasom/parenscriptx.git>?
2015-04-13T16:45:34Z emaczen: easye: yes
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2015-04-13T16:45:55Z easye: Can you put your cl-projects.conf in <http://paste.lisp.org>?
2015-04-13T16:46:05Z akkad: does hunchentoot offload to chipz for compression?
2015-04-13T16:46:23Z emaczen: All it contains is (:tree "/opt/devel/src/")
2015-04-13T16:46:53Z easye: Well, that is a little optimistic.
2015-04-13T16:47:47Z easye: Try adding something like (:directory "/opt/local/src/parenscriptx/") if that is where parenscriptx is loaded.
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2015-04-13T16:48:46Z easye: You can use (asdf:initialize-source-registry) instead of restarting ABCL.
2015-04-13T16:49:02Z emaczen: too late... lol but thanks, I'll remember that in the future
2015-04-13T16:49:27Z easye: And perhaps use (asdf:find-system :parenscriptx) as the first form.
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2015-04-13T16:50:29Z emaczen: easye: how does quicklisp work with ABCL? I've noticed that if I evaluate the add-to-initfile script that the next time I try to start ABCL it gives an error and stalls
2015-04-13T16:51:04Z easye: I use the :quicklisp-abcl contrib:  (require :abcl-contrib) (require :quicklisp-abcl)
2015-04-13T16:51:19Z emaczen: inside .abclrc?
2015-04-13T16:51:23Z easye: One could.
2015-04-13T16:52:30Z emaczen: easye: I pasted that into .abclrc and it's stalling again...
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2015-04-13T16:52:49Z easye: Don't do that then.
2015-04-13T16:53:14Z easye: Enter the forms explicitly until you've debugged them with your installation.
2015-04-13T16:53:26Z easye: Define "stalling"
2015-04-13T16:54:32Z emaczen: easye: I'll worry about that another day
2015-04-13T16:56:55Z emaczen: easye: Back to the main issue, after running (asdf:find-system :parenscriptx) ABCL tells me: Component "parenscriptx" not found
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2015-04-13T16:57:40Z easye: (probe-file "/opt/devel/src/parenscriptx")
2015-04-13T16:58:19Z emaczen: easye: Also, (asdf:initialize-source-registry) says: Bad place for wild pathname...
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2015-04-13T16:59:27Z emaczen: easye: Thanks, I mistyped the path with (:directory ...) form in my source-registry
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2015-04-13T16:59:45Z emaczen: easye: I'm a little surprised with all of the weird errors though
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2015-04-13T17:00:27Z emaczen: like, (asdf:initialize-source-registry) still throws an error (is there better common lisp terminology instead of "throws an error")
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2015-04-13T17:01:12Z easye: I would start ABCL anew without an "~/.abclrc" file, adding forms as you debug them.
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2015-04-13T17:01:40Z emaczen: easye: I removed all the contents of the .abclrc file -- I guess I'll delete now though
2015-04-13T17:01:48Z easye: Mets opening game starting:  find me on #abcl later ok?
2015-04-13T17:02:00Z emaczen: easye: Sure no worries and enjoy the game!
2015-04-13T17:03:11Z scymtym__: emaczen: "signals an error" (because errors are one kind of conditions and CL:SIGNAL is the fundamental mechanism for, well, signaling conditions)
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2015-04-13T17:03:29Z emaczen: scymtym__: Thanks I'll keep that in mind
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2015-04-13T17:10:02Z drmeister: I found the problem with my pretty printing - my REPLACE function didn't work properly if I was moving a string within a string  (replace #1="abcdef" #1# :start1 2 :start2 0) --> "ababab"   DUH!
2015-04-13T17:10:33Z drmeister: All better now
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2015-04-13T17:24:43Z dlowe: burn the unbeliever!
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2015-04-13T17:28:35Z crichter: lisplamist extremism
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2015-04-13T18:42:34Z x1n4u:  /close
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2015-04-13T19:17:20Z Fare: http://fare.livejournal.com/184127.html
2015-04-13T19:17:31Z Fare: Common Lisp as a Scripting Language, 2015 edition
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2015-04-13T19:19:37Z faheem_: Hi Fare
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2015-04-13T19:20:40Z faheem_: Fare: what does "code bumming" mean?
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2015-04-13T19:36:28Z Xach: faheem_: see "bum" in http://www.tmk.com/ftp/humor/jargon.txt
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2015-04-13T19:39:39Z clop: Is there any good way to do something like (let ((arr (make-array...))) (defun f ...updates arr destructively...)) without ruining thread-safety?  I'd like each thread to have its own copy of arr.  I could make it special but it seems like then my thread-creation code would have to know about it, which seems kind of unpleasant...
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2015-04-13T19:40:49Z Bicyclidine: make-thread probably copies all specials anyway, i think.
2015-04-13T19:41:32Z dim: I don't know if array updates are thread-safe on the array or cell level clop, in any case you would need locking to ensure some determinate behavior I guess
2015-04-13T19:41:49Z Shinmera: Either copy the array before thread creation or lock it up.
2015-04-13T19:42:20Z Shinmera: And yes, threads will have their own special bindings, unless you use implementation dependant globals.
2015-04-13T19:42:22Z clop: if i'm writing a library function, and don't know what the user is going to do in his threading code, is there a way to ensure it gets copied and avoid locking?
2015-04-13T19:42:59Z Xach: clop: i thought http://random-state.net/log/3507100003.html might apply, but looking at it again it seems possibly not
2015-04-13T19:46:13Z clop: interesting
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2015-04-13T19:57:00Z n3vtelen: shoud I learn clojure?
2015-04-13T19:57:08Z n3vtelen: as a modern lisp?
2015-04-13T19:57:11Z Shinmera: Try #clojure
2015-04-13T19:57:26Z Shinmera: They'll tell you "yes".
2015-04-13T19:57:34Z Shinmera: Here we'll tell you to learn Common Lisp.
2015-04-13T19:58:33Z n3vtelen: Shinmera: and I did here becasue of this
2015-04-13T19:58:38Z n3vtelen: Shinmera: :)
2015-04-13T19:58:50Z Shinmera: What?
2015-04-13T19:59:25Z pjb: n3vtelen: no, you should learn Common Lisp.
2015-04-13T19:59:30Z n3vtelen: I need to learn a functional
2015-04-13T19:59:37Z n3vtelen: programming language
2015-04-13T19:59:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: Oh, that isn't here.
2015-04-13T19:59:44Z pjb: There's no such thing, the universe is not functional.
2015-04-13T19:59:45Z Shinmera: Common Lisp is not particularly functional.
2015-04-13T19:59:57Z Shinmera: For some values of 'functional'.
2015-04-13T20:00:07Z pjb: Therefore Common Lisp is sufficiently functional: you can write programs in CL in as a functional style as you want.
2015-04-13T20:00:24Z n3vtelen: to understand such concpects like closure and etc
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2015-04-13T20:01:11Z dim: you don't need functional to get a closure
2015-04-13T20:01:24Z dim: see http://www.paulgraham.com/accgen.html
2015-04-13T20:02:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: That can't even be written in a purely functional language.
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2015-04-13T20:12:56Z ehu: pjb: are you sure? I mean, can't we have a universe which duplicates harddisks as you write to them?
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2015-04-13T20:13:39Z pjb: well sure, but since we're right in the middle of the I/O monad, that doesn't make a difference.
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2015-04-13T20:24:23Z Petit_Dejeuner: Just inspect the program with slime before it finishes running.
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2015-04-13T20:26:53Z Fare: n3vtelen, clojure certainly is interesting.
2015-04-13T20:27:04Z Fare: unhappily it isn't a replacement for CL.
2015-04-13T20:27:47Z Fare: if you want "a functional programming language", clojure is closer to that  than CL.
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2015-04-13T20:28:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: Until you compose one too many functions and the lack of tail call optimization causes a stack overflow and then you have to go back and rewrite everything with trampolines. (Or so I'm told it goes with Scala)
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2015-04-13T20:30:47Z viaken: Scala is too much like that coffee language for me.
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2015-04-13T20:40:30Z faheem_: Xach: ok
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2015-04-13T20:41:06Z faheem_: That's a really obscure usage of the word bum.
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2015-04-13T20:41:39Z Xach: faheem_: I hope all lisp nerds read end enjoy the original JARGON.TXT from steele.
2015-04-13T20:41:59Z dlowe: it's pretty common slang in America
2015-04-13T20:42:06Z faheem_: Xach: as opposed to the non-original one?
2015-04-13T20:42:16Z Xach: faheem_: i don't think it is as relevant to lisp nerds.
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2015-04-13T20:42:25Z jasom: dlowe: I had never heard it used that way before
2015-04-13T20:43:05Z _death: it was used in the Hackers book
2015-04-13T20:44:08Z jasom: Xach: I had read the jargon file before, but hadn't remembered that particular entry
2015-04-13T20:44:41Z Xach will read it again sometime to remember more entries
2015-04-13T20:46:58Z faheem_: I thought the jargon file was a unixy thing.
2015-04-13T20:47:35Z faheem_: the mirror image of the unix hater's handbook, so to speak.
2015-04-13T20:47:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: "CHINE NUAL" "The Lisp Machine Manual, so called because the title is wrapped around the cover so only those letters show." It really is magic, isn't it?
2015-04-13T20:48:05Z Xach: faheem_: the original jargon file is not.
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2015-04-13T21:09:45Z digiorgi: any compiler directive to avoid warning when i don't use a variable like (lambda (a b) (funcall #'foo a))?
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2015-04-13T21:10:18Z Shinmera: clhs ignore
2015-04-13T21:10:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm
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2015-04-13T21:10:38Z Shinmera: as in (declare (ignore b)) after the lambda-list.
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2015-04-13T22:54:12Z Posterdati: hi
2015-04-13T22:54:25Z Posterdati: froggey: you did a great job with mezzano
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2015-04-13T23:21:04Z froggey: Posterdati: thanks
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2015-04-13T23:31:49Z akkad: froggey: you got an amazon wish list? :P
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2015-04-13T23:57:00Z froggey: akkad: no, but I could put one together
2015-04-13T23:57:26Z akkad: :D