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2015-03-22T00:15:48Z nyef: Doesn't drmeister have some good angles for rendering large graphs?
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2015-03-22T00:25:36Z drmeister: Cystoscape or Tulip
2015-03-22T00:27:12Z Shinmera: mood: I was able to view the SVG in browsers, though it lagged like crazy.
2015-03-22T00:27:43Z Shinmera: Converting to png will be much worse.
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2015-03-22T00:36:05Z mood: Shinmera: The SVG is viewable, yes, but there are too many lines everywhere. PNG is usually rendered faster than SVG, but the filesize will probably get rid of any performance gains.
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2015-03-22T00:36:32Z Shinmera: I couldn't even load the pngs anywhere when I tried that
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2015-03-22T00:39:11Z mood: Shinmera: I now have a 33M png rendered using fdp. Initial rendering performance is horrible, but once I'm at a zoom level I like it's very fast
2015-03-22T00:40:14Z mood: It's not at all useful though
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2015-03-22T00:44:48Z Phagus: In CLISP, is it possible to inspect the help string of a function on-line  in the repl?
2015-03-22T00:45:07Z Phagus: Eg, something like (help setq), and it would display the documentation for setq?
2015-03-22T00:46:15Z Bike: (documentation 'setq 'function)
2015-03-22T00:46:20Z Bike: though i don't know if there is any
2015-03-22T00:46:25Z Bike: (describe 'setq) might be more helpful.
2015-03-22T00:46:51Z Phagus: HMmmm... its a litle ugly
2015-03-22T00:47:20Z Bike: there's no guarantee implementations keep documentation of standard functions around. usually easier just to look at the clhs.
2015-03-22T00:47:25Z mood: There isn't any. It looks like CLISP tries to fetch a HyperSpec entry on (describe 'setq). Too bad it's a 404.
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2015-03-22T00:47:47Z Phagus: I mean, IPython's REPL and pry for Ruby both let you get on-line documentation
2015-03-22T00:47:52Z Phagus: It helps a lot
2015-03-22T00:48:50Z nyef: I've never been impressed with GNU CLISP, and this bit of anecdata doesn't exactly inspire me to reevaluate it. (-:
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2015-03-22T00:49:28Z Phagus: What do you use nyef ?
2015-03-22T00:49:40Z mood: nyef: SBCL isn't really more helpful here
2015-03-22T00:49:41Z _death: if you're using slime, you can C-c C-d C-h to look up a symbol in the CLHS, after setting things up.
2015-03-22T00:49:48Z Bike: well, sbcl's describe says pretty much nothing relevant to a newbie
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2015-03-22T00:51:00Z _death: erm, `C-c C-d h'
2015-03-22T00:52:02Z _death: you can also `C-c C-d d' to describe a symbol.  https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Documentation.html
2015-03-22T00:53:08Z Phagus: Does SLIME mesh well with emacs-evil?
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2015-03-22T00:53:30Z mood: Phagus: Well enough for me, at least
2015-03-22T00:53:49Z mood: You'll have to use some Emacs-isms, but I haven't found any horrible conflicts
2015-03-22T00:54:27Z mood: Or, well, you can configure things so you don't need the Emacs-isms if you really hate them, I guess
2015-03-22T00:54:46Z Phagus: I don't mind occasional Emacs-isms
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2015-03-22T01:02:31Z drmeister: I often render graphviz graphs as eps and open them in adobe illustrator. You can search for text in nodes. You can also select edges and change their appearance.
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2015-03-22T02:02:37Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146421 any idea how to optimize it? It quickly exhausts the stack
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2015-03-22T02:25:15Z drmeister: Got through compiling CLOS with Cleavir/Clasp - just a few more things to finish up.
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2015-03-22T02:48:25Z nyef: drmeister: Congratulations.
2015-03-22T02:48:33Z nyef: CLOS is a major step!
2015-03-22T02:48:51Z drmeister: Thanks.
2015-03-22T02:49:17Z jasom: whoa, congrats drmeister
2015-03-22T02:49:50Z drmeister: Next is compiling Cleavir/Clasp with Cleavir/Clasp
2015-03-22T02:50:55Z nyef: Ah, yes. The MFTL test: "Can it compile itself yet?"
2015-03-22T02:51:16Z jasom: smokeink: I think just enabling optimizations will prevent it from blowing the stack, but it's going to be slow
2015-03-22T02:52:14Z jasom: smokeink: as long as you have tail-calls sbcl should eliminate them with (speed 3) and (debug 1)
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2015-03-22T02:53:48Z drmeister: nyef: Yes - Fare sent me a recipe for extracting every source file from an ASDF system - time to try it out and compile those files.
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2015-03-22T02:54:49Z jasom: smokeink: also if you're going to do a naive fibonacci, at least memoize it
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2015-03-22T02:57:25Z nyef: This "lazy evaluation" thing doesn't make all that much sense to me in terms of semantics.
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2015-03-22T03:05:02Z jasom: me neither
2015-03-22T03:05:25Z jasom: It's lazily evaluating fib, but not caching the result.  Worst of both worlds
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2015-03-22T03:06:51Z nyef: It's even worse than that: FIB is defined recursively in terms of these half-baked lazy structures.
2015-03-22T03:07:06Z jasom: right
2015-03-22T03:07:22Z nyef: That's what's blowing the stack, actually.
2015-03-22T03:08:27Z nyef: Well, most likely.
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2015-03-22T03:14:27Z drmeister: Damn - I didn't get my meaning across to Fare - this recipe:   (mapcar 'asdf:component-pathname (asdf::required-components :clasp-cleavir :keep-component 'asdf:cl-source-file))    only gives me the files in the :clasp-cleavir system - not the systems it depends on (recursively).
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2015-03-22T03:20:21Z drmeister: Someone here gave me some Common Lisp code a couple of days ago that builds a list of all source files compiled by ASDF when building a system - I forgot what their handle was -    thank you kind stranger!
2015-03-22T03:20:32Z drmeister: It works beautifully.
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2015-03-22T03:22:13Z drmeister: 119 source files - on top of the 82 that I currently have - (sigh).    Great!
2015-03-22T03:22:35Z drmeister: Might as well rest a spell - this is going to take some time.
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2015-03-22T03:24:05Z drmeister: Does anyone know how to take an ASDF CL-SOURCE-FILE and get the full pathname for it?
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2015-03-22T03:27:26Z Phagus: Which implementation of Scheme should one use for SICP? I've been reading recommendations to use Racket, but I'm not sure
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2015-03-22T03:32:45Z drmeister: Got it:   asdf/component:component-pathname
2015-03-22T03:33:41Z drmeister: Phagus: There's an MIT Scheme.
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2015-03-22T03:41:06Z Phagus: Yeah found it.. Attempting to make it
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2015-03-22T04:01:12Z drmeister: There's a Common Lisp function for reducing a pathname to the minimum relative path relative to some other pathname - does anyone recall what it is called?
2015-03-22T04:01:50Z drmeister: It doesn't have PATHNAME in the name - I keep forgetting what it is called.
2015-03-22T04:02:35Z drmeister: ENOUGH-NAMESTRING - grr
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2015-03-22T04:11:24Z SAL9000: can lparallel play nice with cl-async & blackbird's promises?
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2015-03-22T04:12:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-03-22T04:12:10Z akkad: morning?
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2015-03-22T04:13:52Z Phagus: In MIT scheme repl, how do I disable on-line debugging? In clisp for example you can do at start-up: `clisp -on-error abort`
2015-03-22T04:14:07Z beach: Phagus: This channel is about Common Lisp.
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2015-03-22T04:14:22Z SAL9000: Phagus: #scheme
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2015-03-22T04:14:45Z akkad: unless cl on racket has happened.
2015-03-22T04:16:36Z SAL9000: given two (or more) implementations of similar classes e.g. PURI and QURI, how does one go about making them interoperable?
2015-03-22T04:17:31Z SAL9000: in other words, (drakma:http-request) wants a PURI object or string, while my code works with QURI objects. Is there some way to define an automatic "conversion" from QURI to PURI?
2015-03-22T04:17:55Z SAL9000: of course, I can just (puri:uri (render-uri quri-obj)) but that's inefficient.
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2015-03-22T04:23:57Z pillton: I have a beta version of a system which implements a new function which is similar to a generic function but dispatches according to type.
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2015-03-22T04:24:09Z pillton: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store
2015-03-22T04:24:13Z pillton: Comments welcomed.
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2015-03-22T04:25:44Z beach: pillton: Provides a new "kind of function" rather than just a new "function"?
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2015-03-22T04:26:10Z pillton: Ok.
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2015-03-22T04:27:40Z beach: pillton: Looks very useful.
2015-03-22T04:27:48Z beach: pillton: How is it implemented?
2015-03-22T04:27:48Z drmeister: Hi beach - I compiled all of CLOS
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2015-03-22T04:28:08Z guicho: pillton: just yesterday I was implementing a system that captures type variables, but suspendend. structures based on type varables are already completed, however propagating the type restriction is a bit complicated. https://github.com/guicho271828/trivialib.typevar
2015-03-22T04:28:10Z beach: drmeister: Wow!  That's good progress.
2015-03-22T04:28:45Z beach: drmeister: I was just thinking about that class constant.  It is going to become a problem if it is a constant.
2015-03-22T04:29:21Z drmeister: I added code to generate code for literals that are built-in classes.
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2015-03-22T04:29:53Z beach: drmeister: How does it work?
2015-03-22T04:29:54Z drmeister: So I can COMPILE-FILE stuff like (defvar *a* #.(find-class 'integer))
2015-03-22T04:30:13Z pillton: beach: Using CLOS at present. I looked (briefly) at making it circular, but didn't think it was worth the effort.
2015-03-22T04:30:27Z drmeister: It generates code that evaluates FIND-CLASS with the symbol.
2015-03-22T04:30:56Z guicho: pillton: dispatches according to type << I wonder how the matching tree is optimized.
2015-03-22T04:30:58Z beach: drmeister: It does that at load time?
2015-03-22T04:31:01Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-03-22T04:31:15Z beach: drmeister: OK, so you are sure to get the EQ object.  Good.
2015-03-22T04:31:31Z pillton: guicho: It isn't at present.
2015-03-22T04:31:31Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-03-22T04:31:47Z drmeister: beach: Do you understand how the init-form works for MAKE-LOAD-FORM?
2015-03-22T04:32:04Z pillton: guicho: There are mechanisms for moving it all to compile time though.
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2015-03-22T04:32:15Z drmeister: I don't understand how to generate code for that.
2015-03-22T04:32:17Z beach: drmeister: I haven't really looked at MAKE-LOAD-FORM.  Let me check...
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2015-03-22T04:33:05Z drmeister: Is it as easy as evaluate the create-form followed by the init-form.   The init-form doesn't take arguments - the objects created in the create-form is somehow baked into the init-form as if it were a constant. I may be overthinking this.
2015-03-22T04:33:50Z guicho: pillton: oh it works in runtime? but I don't think it is a problem, since you just have to recompile the dispatching function runtime when new method is added.
2015-03-22T04:33:51Z beach: drmeister: I may have to read this when I am more awake than I am right now.
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2015-03-22T04:35:36Z pillton: guicho: It works at both runtime and compile time. If it can deduce the specialization at compile time, then the specialization is invoked directly. Otherwise, the dispatching function is used.
2015-03-22T04:35:59Z drmeister: beach: No problem - I'll sleep on it.
2015-03-22T04:36:08Z drmeister: beach: Have you compiled Cleavir with Cleavir?
2015-03-22T04:36:08Z guicho: pillton: that sounds good.
2015-03-22T04:36:16Z pillton: guicho: Specializations need to have a name or declared inline for that to occur though.
2015-03-22T04:36:35Z SAL9000: pillton: Is there a trade-off to using specialization-store over, say, CLOS + etypecase?
2015-03-22T04:36:52Z beach: drmeister: Not yet.
2015-03-22T04:37:12Z drmeister: Ok - I thought maybe with your Common Lisp backend...
2015-03-22T04:37:19Z drmeister: Ok - I'm going to try it next.
2015-03-22T04:37:21Z pillton: SAL9000: In terms of code layout there is.
2015-03-22T04:37:27Z beach: drmeister: My evaluator is still incomplete.  I can't do special variable bindings or non-local control transfers.
2015-03-22T04:37:29Z guicho: SAL9000: it would be faster than CLOS since it reduce runtime dispatching.
2015-03-22T04:37:55Z pillton: SAL9000: Some classes you do not get access to as well e.g. (simple-array double-float *).
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2015-03-22T04:38:33Z drmeister: There are 119 source files in cleavir + the interface that I wrote
2015-03-22T04:38:37Z SAL9000: pillton, guicho: OK, so why doesn't CLOS natively support dispatch on types, then?
2015-03-22T04:38:56Z drmeister: There are about 80 odd source files In Clasp.
2015-03-22T04:39:11Z drmeister: So there are going to be about 200 source files in Cleavir/Clasp once I'm done.
2015-03-22T04:39:24Z beach: drmeister: Sounds reasonable.
2015-03-22T04:39:51Z beach: drmeister: Lately, I have purposely created many small files so that I can use them selectively in different situations.
2015-03-22T04:39:53Z Quadrescence: SAL9000, dispatch on types would be unreasonably slow
2015-03-22T04:40:38Z Quadrescence: Imagine the horror of a load of expensive SATISFIES types.
2015-03-22T04:41:23Z guicho: that's specific to SATISFIES types.
2015-03-22T04:41:25Z Quadrescence: SAL9000, Additionally, determining a lattice of types in Lisp is not really possible.
2015-03-22T04:41:39Z SAL9000: what do you mean by a "lattice of types"?
2015-03-22T04:42:03Z pillton: SAL9000: Classes naturally form trees.
2015-03-22T04:42:17Z Quadrescence: SAL9000, What is more specific? (INTEGER -1 1) or (MOD 3)?
2015-03-22T04:42:35Z Quadrescence: What if you dispatch on both? How do you determine what to do with 0?
2015-03-22T04:43:19Z pillton: I don't think that is a valid argument.
2015-03-22T04:43:21Z guicho: Quadrescence, pillton: so lisp types are not naturally a tree.
2015-03-22T04:43:35Z guicho: pillton: also applies to mixins.
2015-03-22T04:43:42Z Quadrescence: pillton, Why not? There's ambiguity. With classes, there is not.
2015-03-22T04:43:49Z beach: drmeister: The only disadvantage that I can see with many small files is that I won't get inter-procedure optimization.  However, when we store the AST for each function, those ASTs can be arbitrarily combined and compiled as if they were in the same file.
2015-03-22T04:44:00Z Quadrescence: How do you unambiguously define a canonical ordering with types?
2015-03-22T04:44:20Z pillton: The user created the ambiguity. It is not up the framework to resolve that ambiguity.
2015-03-22T04:44:36Z Quadrescence: In Common Lisp, it is up to the language to resolve ambiguity.
2015-03-22T04:44:51Z pillton: Who seriously wants the SAME function to perform two different actions for the same argument?
2015-03-22T04:44:52Z Quadrescence: The language definition includes disambiguation. So you'd expect types should as well.
2015-03-22T04:44:55Z drmeister: beach: It's also possible to get inlining on the LLVM side.   I do whole program optimization already.
2015-03-22T04:45:06Z drmeister: Whole program inlining.
2015-03-22T04:45:12Z Quadrescence: pillton, The whole point of class inheritance is to allow that.
2015-03-22T04:46:00Z pillton: Nonsense.
2015-03-22T04:46:06Z Quadrescence: o_O?
2015-03-22T04:46:30Z Quadrescence: If you want to do simple predicate based dispatch, then that's fine. But that's kind of dumb, in my opinion. Doesn't lend well to modular, extensible systems with clearly defined semantics.
2015-03-22T04:46:36Z beach: drmeister: So it does that on the machine code?
2015-03-22T04:47:02Z drmeister: On the LLVM-IR.
2015-03-22T04:47:06Z beach: I see.
2015-03-22T04:47:14Z beach: drmeister: That only avoids the call.  It can't do inter-procedure optimization.
2015-03-22T04:47:48Z beach: drmeister: Or maybe it can do some things that do not depend on language semantics.
2015-03-22T04:47:55Z Quadrescence: Type dispatch essentially boils down to predicate dispatch, of course.
2015-03-22T04:48:05Z pillton: So does CLOS dispatch.
2015-03-22T04:48:35Z Quadrescence: yes, where the predicates overlap in a very precisely defined way
2015-03-22T04:48:35Z guicho: Quadrescence, pillton: I do not care if the system clearly defines the method to be run. In CLOS, it is. In pattern matching, if the ambiguity occurs, the first dispatched branch will be executed. this does not mess up the program, since all patterns should be defined in one place. I'm not sure about specialization-store, but I hope it is possible.
2015-03-22T04:49:51Z drmeister: On second thought - I'm pretty sure I don't want LLVM to do inlining of Common Lisp code within Common Lisp code - I don't think it will work because it won't know anything about the arguments that are passed in the thread-local multiple-values array.
2015-03-22T04:49:59Z pillton: guicho: It picks the most specific specialization otherwise it is undefined.
2015-03-22T04:50:12Z drmeister: I think the proper place to do that is in Cleavir.
2015-03-22T04:50:27Z beach: drmeister: Yeah, maybe so.
2015-03-22T04:50:28Z guicho: pillton: that "most specific specialization" is what Quadrescence is mentioned by
2015-03-22T04:50:41Z guicho: "canonical ordering"
2015-03-22T04:50:53Z guicho: sorry for messy english
2015-03-22T04:51:01Z guicho: s/is/has/
2015-03-22T04:51:24Z pillton: No, he is referring to the object 0 belonging to the types (integer -1 1) and (mod 3).
2015-03-22T04:51:30Z drmeister: The inlining is fine for my C++ intrinsic functions.  I can do stuff like look up load-time values in C++ and have it inline that code into my generated LLVM-IR.
2015-03-22T04:51:49Z guicho: pillton: so which is most specific? (integer -1 1) or (mod 3) ?
2015-03-22T04:52:05Z pillton: guicho: That is undefined. Consider (integer 0 10) versus (integer 0 100).
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2015-03-22T04:52:38Z pillton: guicho: The first is a subtype of the second.
2015-03-22T04:53:26Z guicho: pillton: That is undefined<< and this is what Quadrescence cares about.
2015-03-22T04:53:47Z pillton: You can't do that for types.
2015-03-22T04:54:15Z pillton: Classes represent a subset of all possible types.
2015-03-22T04:54:42Z guicho: pillton: how about signalling an error e.g. type-ambiguation , or taking the "all in" strategy?
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2015-03-22T04:55:20Z pillton: Subclass standard-store and implement funcall-store and expand-store.
2015-03-22T04:55:59Z pillton: If you restrict yourself to types that exhibit the same characteristics as classes, then there is no issue.
2015-03-22T04:56:30Z guicho: pillton: not. consider mixins.
2015-03-22T04:57:31Z guicho: imagine you have a method for class A and class B. then class C inherits both A and B. which method runs?
2015-03-22T04:58:54Z guicho: imagine you have /two/ methods for each of class A and class B. then suppose a class C inherits both A and B as mixins. which method runs?
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2015-03-22T04:59:38Z guicho: also assume there is currently no method is defined for C itseld.
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2015-03-22T05:00:34Z pillton: Ok. That I haven't considered.
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2015-03-22T05:04:48Z beach: drmeister: Still around?
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2015-03-22T05:05:06Z drmeister: yes
2015-03-22T05:05:07Z beach: drmeister: So how much is left to do?
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2015-03-22T05:05:39Z pillton: I'm not a big fan of multiple inheritance, so I am happy to leave it undefined.
2015-03-22T05:06:56Z drmeister: beach: Not much - I'm just preparing the build system to handle the new files.   I don't want to use ASDF to load the Cleavir systems.
2015-03-22T05:07:00Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/eMmHHPMr
2015-03-22T05:07:27Z drmeister: These symbols represent the source files.   The second half of the list is Cleavir
2015-03-22T05:07:42Z drmeister: They are in the order that ASDF would compile them.
2015-03-22T05:07:50Z beach: OK.
2015-03-22T05:07:56Z beach: Why do you not want to use ASDF?
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2015-03-22T05:08:09Z drmeister: Bootstrapping.
2015-03-22T05:08:23Z drmeister: I have a mini build system built into Clasp.
2015-03-22T05:08:29Z beach: It always boils down to bootstrapping doesn't it?
2015-03-22T05:08:35Z drmeister: It takes a list of files and compiles them and links them etc.
2015-03-22T05:08:37Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-03-22T05:09:42Z beach: One day I will write a paper about it.
2015-03-22T05:09:57Z drmeister: The keyword symbols in the list are milestones - I can bring up the Clasp executable with no image and have it load source files or compile ranges of source files from the list.
2015-03-22T05:10:22Z drmeister: I should be the one to write that paper dude - I've done nothing but think about bootstrapping for four years. :-)
2015-03-22T05:11:35Z drmeister: That list is the master list of all Common Lisp source files needed to build the Clasp Common Lisp image.
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2015-03-22T05:12:08Z drmeister: You can use the interpreter to load from :start to :cmp but no farther - if you try, the constant macro expansion will bring the system to its knees.
2015-03-22T05:12:10Z beach: drmeister: I think the two papers would be very different.
2015-03-22T05:12:14Z guicho: pillton: you can at least detect it and warn it , or signals an error.
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2015-03-22T05:13:21Z guicho: pillton: to check if two types overlap, run (subtypep '(and t1 t2) nil).
2015-03-22T05:13:23Z drmeister: The first 48 entries can be loaded into the interpreter and run in the interpreter with reasonable speed.
2015-03-22T05:14:19Z beach: drmeister: We need to discuss your ELS paper at some point.  Tell me when and where.  In #clasp maybe?  But when?
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2015-03-22T05:14:21Z drmeister: The first 66 entries - up to :MIN defines the minimal Common Lisp - no CLOS.
2015-03-22T05:14:34Z drmeister: Clasp is everything up to entry 98  :ALL.
2015-03-22T05:14:40Z drmeister: Cleavir/Clasp is everything.
2015-03-22T05:15:18Z drmeister: How about Monday
2015-03-22T05:15:42Z drmeister: I may be at the cusp of getting this working
2015-03-22T05:16:00Z beach: Monday is fine.  What time?
2015-03-22T05:16:26Z beach: I can free up some time in the afternoon here, so morning for you.
2015-03-22T05:16:32Z drmeister: How about my morning - your afternoon.
2015-03-22T05:16:39Z drmeister: Sure.
2015-03-22T05:16:43Z beach: What time do you wake up?
2015-03-22T05:16:52Z drmeister: My Monday morning is your Monday afternoon.
2015-03-22T05:16:57Z guicho: pillton: (defclass a () ())(defclass b () ())(defclass c (a b) ())(subtypep 'c '(and a b)) -> T
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2015-03-22T05:17:15Z beach: Er, what time are you going to be operational on Monday, rather.
2015-03-22T05:17:37Z guicho: pillton: (subtypep '(and a b) nil)
2015-03-22T05:17:41Z guicho: > NIL
2015-03-22T05:17:51Z drmeister: Probably 9:30am EST
2015-03-22T05:18:13Z beach: drmeister: OK, there is currently a 5h difference.
2015-03-22T05:18:30Z beach: so I will write down 14:30.
2015-03-22T05:19:05Z beach: drmeister: Done.
2015-03-22T05:19:21Z beach: drmeister: So in #clasp?
2015-03-22T05:19:24Z drmeister: The reason I want to avoid ASDF is I don't want to have to compile and load ASDF in the middle of the build process.  That would also "bake" ASDF into the build process.
2015-03-22T05:19:29Z drmeister: Sure, #clasp.
2015-03-22T05:19:34Z beach: Good.
2015-03-22T05:20:26Z drmeister: I'll use ASDF to periodically update the list of files to build and when I'm developing I'll use ASDF.  But I want a vanilla build system that doesn't require it.
2015-03-22T05:20:35Z beach: I see.
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2015-03-22T05:23:12Z drmeister: Cleavir source files are now integrated within my build system.
2015-03-22T05:23:30Z drmeister: (clasp-cleavir:compile-system :all :cleavir-clasp :system *cleavir-clasp*) -->
2015-03-22T05:23:56Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/zFsfJ9dY
2015-03-22T05:24:03Z drmeister: And away we go.
2015-03-22T05:25:23Z drmeister: Given level of care that you put into writing idiomatic Common Lisp - I think this is going to work.
2015-03-22T05:26:31Z drmeister: See?  Usually when I make a statement like that whatever I happen to be building immediately crashes or segfaults or does something bad - not this time.
2015-03-22T05:26:32Z beach: You mean as opposed to a DEFCONSTANT in the middle of a function? :)
2015-03-22T05:26:35Z drmeister: It's just chugging away.
2015-03-22T05:26:52Z drmeister: Yeah - you don't have any of those do you?
2015-03-22T05:27:00Z beach: No I don't.
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2015-03-22T05:27:45Z drmeister: Wait - it's done.
2015-03-22T05:27:45Z beach: An immediate goal of SICL is to have idiomatic code that can be read and understand by someone who wants to do that.
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2015-03-22T05:28:07Z drmeister: That was fast.
2015-03-22T05:28:28Z beach: drmeister: I must admit I am not quite following what you are doing at the moment.
2015-03-22T05:28:58Z drmeister: I just compiled all of the Cleavir source files with the Cleavir/Clasp compiler.   You've just been self-hosted.
2015-03-22T05:29:12Z beach: That's very very impressive.
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2015-03-22T05:29:30Z drmeister: Yup, 119 files.
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2015-03-22T05:32:31Z drmeister: Hmm, it put all the files in the wrong place because I didn't have the *features* set right.
2015-03-22T05:32:42Z ggole: drmeister: nice, that must feel satisfying
2015-03-22T05:32:57Z drmeister: I'm going to set it up to run from the start overnight and see if it runs tomorrow.
2015-03-22T05:33:19Z drmeister: Yeah - I'll feel great if it runs.
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2015-03-22T05:34:29Z beach: drmeister: So I take it you don't need me for anything right now?  If so, I am going to take a break.
2015-03-22T05:34:50Z drmeister: Just so you can see - here are the LLVM bitcode files for the Cleavir source files:
2015-03-22T05:34:53Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/0ijkkXSi
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2015-03-22T05:35:26Z drmeister: Nope - I'm fine.   I'm heading to bed as soon as I've started up a full build.
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2015-03-22T05:35:46Z beach: Great.  Talk to you when you wake up I guess.
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2015-03-22T07:08:15Z pjb: minion: memo for eugeneia: there's nothing useful you can do knowing the sizes of lisp types.  Why would you want to know them?
2015-03-22T07:08:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell eugeneia when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-03-22T07:11:15Z pjb: Bike: you just need to tell clisp where to look up for the hyperspec!
2015-03-22T07:11:51Z pjb: Bike: for example: (setq custom:*clhs-root-default*  "http://localhost/local/lisp/HyperSpec/") ; in ~/.clisprc.lisp
2015-03-22T07:11:51Z pjb:  
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2015-03-22T07:12:56Z pjb: nyef: you should read clisp doc: http://clisp.org/impnotes/
2015-03-22T07:13:48Z akkad: joshe: thanks I've got 4 ppc boxes doing lisp builds now :P
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2015-03-22T07:17:03Z pjb: beach: you can always use with-compilation-unit to get optimizations across several files.
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2015-03-22T07:17:52Z pjb: beach: the question would be how to integrate with-compilation-unit with asdf. I don't know if there's any provision for it.
2015-03-22T07:18:38Z beach: I think there is.
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2015-03-22T07:19:52Z beach: But I haven't checked the details.  All I care about right now is to be convinced that there is no penalty in making many small files.
2015-03-22T07:20:29Z pjb: There doesn't seem to be: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/507378/comments/2
2015-03-22T07:21:45Z beach: Hmm. OK.  I trust someone will fix that before I need it.
2015-03-22T07:21:54Z pjb: Let's hope :-)
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2015-03-22T07:38:09Z beach: What is the general mechanism to use if I want to compile a standard macro form as if it were a special operator?
2015-03-22T07:38:34Z beach: The macro must exists for the purpose of code walkers.
2015-03-22T07:38:52Z beach: But how do I avoid that it get expanded in my compiler?
2015-03-22T07:39:01Z beach: Just test for special-operator-p first?
2015-03-22T07:39:41Z beach: Hmm, am I even allowed to have special-operator-p return true for such a thing?
2015-03-22T07:41:35Z beach: I think I don't have the right.
2015-03-22T07:41:49Z beach: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.1
2015-03-22T07:41:49Z pjb: beach: you just test for special operators before testing for (macro-function (first sexp)).
2015-03-22T07:41:49Z specbot: Special Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm
2015-03-22T07:42:02Z pjb: it's hardwired in the compiler.
2015-03-22T07:42:05Z ggole: Have your own compiler-internal predicate?
2015-03-22T07:42:20Z beach: Yeah, OK.
2015-03-22T07:43:07Z pjb: Of course, you can have a table, so you would do (cond ((special-operator-p (first sexp)) (funcall (first sexp) sexp)) ((macro-function (first sexp)) (compile-form (macroexpand sexp env))) (t (compile-call sexp)))
2015-03-22T07:44:09Z beach: Yeah, I get it.  It is a bit more complicated than that because of compiler macros, but I get the general idea.
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2015-03-22T07:45:02Z beach: Thanks.
2015-03-22T07:45:26Z beach: Now I have to figure out how to make this implementation independent. :)
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2015-03-22T08:09:05Z beach: As it turns out, I already have the mechanism in place.  For a compound form such as (f arg ...) I ask the implementation for FUNCTION-INFO.  The implementation should just return a SPECIAL-OPERATOR-INFO instance if it wants Cleavir to treat it specially.
2015-03-22T08:09:50Z beach: Cleavir then calls CONVERT-SPECIAL and the implementation is free to define methods on that generic function.
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2015-03-22T08:10:44Z pjb: Perhaps you are feeling a little uneasy about this, in that some fundamental CL semantics are left implicit in the way the implementation of FUNCTION-INFO prioritize the type of object it returns? (ie. special-operator-info over macro-operator-info)
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2015-03-22T08:12:18Z beach: Having thought about it for the past 20 minutes, I have decided that I do not feel uneasy about it. :)
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2015-03-22T08:12:57Z beach: Because the implementation is free to implement methods on FUNCTION-INFO as it pleases.
2015-03-22T08:14:32Z pjb: an operator can have three facets, special operator, macro and function.   macro and function are quite exclusive, but the standard specifically allows a special operator to be fbound (reserved for the implementation), and specifically mandate a special operator to be macro bound, when it's not a standard special operator.  Therefore you have at least to take into account this later case, and perhaps also the previous one, if you want 
2015-03-22T08:15:15Z pjb: You can say that this can be dealt with different environments and be done with it.
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2015-03-22T08:17:17Z beach: That is precisely what I am going to do.  By the way the implementation-specific method on function-info works, the implementation will inform Cleavir how it is to be treated.
2015-03-22T08:17:59Z beach: That way, the implementation can do things like check the phase of the moon and return different INFO instances as it pleases.
2015-03-22T08:18:03Z pjb: So for clearvir, a code walker would just be a different implementation returning the macro instead of the special operator, or returning its own special operator object.
2015-03-22T08:18:10Z pjb: Right.
2015-03-22T08:18:22Z beach: That sounds very right.
2015-03-22T08:20:05Z beach: Thanks for helping me think this through!
2015-03-22T08:20:14Z pjb: You're welcome.
2015-03-22T08:27:14Z smokeink: jasom: thanks for the tips
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2015-03-22T09:10:01Z beach: There is nothing like MULTIPLE-VALUE-SETQ, right?  I am thinking of a special operator that would take a list of variables and a form, evaluate the form and ASSIGN (not bind) the values of it to the variables with the usual mismatch rule.
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2015-03-22T09:21:00Z Shinmera: beach: I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but I don't think there's anything else aside from SETF and the MULTIPLE-VALUE* functions that handle multiple values.
2015-03-22T09:21:44Z Shinmera: You could also do something like (progv symbols (multiple-value-list form) ..)
2015-03-22T09:21:46Z beach: Right.  And SETF is a macro.
2015-03-22T09:22:07Z beach: That would bind the variables, wouldn't it?
2015-03-22T09:22:08Z Shinmera: Yeah.
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2015-03-22T09:22:22Z Shinmera: Ah, yes.
2015-03-22T09:22:29Z Shinmera: I'm not quite awake yet.
2015-03-22T09:22:53Z Shinmera: I'm curious: Where does your question come from?
2015-03-22T09:22:57Z beach: I guess I am looking for the effect of (setf (values var1 var2 ...) form)
2015-03-22T09:23:49Z beach: I am going to introduce an AST in Cleavir for this kind of operation, unless of course, there is already an operator that does this.
2015-03-22T09:24:27Z beach: I will compile MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND to that kind of operator, just as I compile LET to a SETQ-AST with a fresh variable.
2015-03-22T09:24:54Z Shinmera: I see.
2015-03-22T09:25:10Z beach: And in fact, I think I will just generalize the SETQ-AST so that it takes a list of variables.
2015-03-22T09:25:46Z beach: The second phase of Cleavir compiles a form in a particular CONTEXT, and part of such a context is the number of values that are expected.
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2015-03-22T09:29:00Z Shinmera: Xach: is there a programmatical way to ask quicklisp if it knows of a system (that might now be downloaded yet)?
2015-03-22T09:29:06Z Shinmera: *not
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2015-03-22T09:35:53Z Shinmera: I imagine there must be, I just couldn't find a symbol that looked like it in the exported symbols list.
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2015-03-22T09:36:57Z francogrex: Hi, since the introduction of the threads on win32 (> sbcl v1.0.55) I am unable to build sbcl on windows with MinGW. has anyone had success building it? I am interested in how it went?
2015-03-22T09:37:33Z Shinmera: stassats usually does the windows builds from what I know. You might want to ask him in #sbcl if you haven't already.
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2015-03-22T09:45:53Z francogrex: ok
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2015-03-22T09:49:36Z Grue`: francogrex: I had success building it once; mostly I just download binaries though
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2015-03-22T09:50:25Z Grue`: it failed one sb-posix test related to pathnames, but after I edited the test it ran smoothly
2015-03-22T09:53:00Z francogrex: Grue`: I like building from source. the failure for me is related to pthreads-win32 header file
2015-03-22T09:53:07Z francogrex: always
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2015-03-22T09:53:54Z francogrex: do you have a pthreads lib that you linked to on windows?
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2015-03-22T09:56:42Z Grue`: yeah, its included in the source
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2015-03-22T09:58:30Z francogrex: and you used MinGW? do you remember which versions (sbcl,mingw)?
2015-03-22T09:58:50Z Grue`: i guess it depends on the version on windows as well, I doubt anyone tested it on XP for example
2015-03-22T09:59:48Z francogrex: aha
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2015-03-22T09:59:54Z francogrex: xp here
2015-03-22T10:00:17Z Grue`: well... xp is pretty old
2015-03-22T10:00:38Z Shinmera: XP is EOL.
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2015-03-22T10:06:45Z Shinmera: mood: I know what the load problem is now. What I don't know is how I haven't run into it before.
2015-03-22T10:09:03Z x1n4u: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146427
2015-03-22T10:09:35Z x1n4u: can you pass a list as multiple arguments to a function in a easy way ?
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2015-03-22T10:09:47Z beach: x1n4u: APPLY
2015-03-22T10:09:48Z Shinmera: clhs apply
2015-03-22T10:09:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2015-03-22T10:10:35Z x1n4u: thanks
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2015-03-22T10:43:36Z Shinmera: Xach: nevermind my question, I was able to figure it out by digging into the source.
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2015-03-22T10:57:18Z Shinmera: mood: It should work just fine now. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/9K
2015-03-22T10:59:28Z mood: Shinmera: Yes, yes it does. Thanks!
2015-03-22T10:59:51Z Shinmera: Thank you for bringing it to my attention, and thanks to Quicklisp for making the fix quite trivial and nice.
2015-03-22T11:00:44Z Shinmera still needs to figure out how to distribute binaries for sqlite and its pcre extension so it doesn't need to give a gross error.
2015-03-22T11:03:30Z pjb: -
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2015-03-22T11:16:08Z Shinmera: mood: Let me know if you encounter any other troubles. There's quite a few edges that have to be smoothened still.
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2015-03-22T12:34:34Z alpha-: what is ASDF ?
2015-03-22T12:35:17Z Shinmera: alpha-: https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/267
2015-03-22T12:35:29Z SAL9000: alpha-: ASDF is "Another System Definition Facility"; the Common Lisp equivalent of a Makefile, perhaps.
2015-03-22T12:35:30Z pjb: minion: asdf
2015-03-22T12:35:31Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``asdf''.
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2015-03-22T12:37:30Z nyef: minion: What does asdf stand for?
2015-03-22T12:37:30Z minion: Anthracitism Sporal Dabble Fordy
2015-03-22T12:38:39Z Shinmera: Colleen: asdf
2015-03-22T12:38:39Z Colleen: "asdf": Another System Definition Facility is the default tool to define build systems for Common Lisp systems. See https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/ . A basic introduction can be found on https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/267
2015-03-22T12:38:48Z Shinmera: There we go, now there's even a shortcut, wowey.
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2015-03-22T12:41:42Z SAL9000: anyone know what's up with cliki.net?
2015-03-22T12:42:02Z SAL9000: it's been giving out 500 errors like candy since (at least) ~6 hours ago
2015-03-22T12:43:03Z remi`bd: wow, is Colleen a bot?
2015-03-22T12:43:20Z nyef: Sounds like the server process is down while the proxy is still up.
2015-03-22T12:43:44Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell remi`bd about yourself
2015-03-22T12:43:44Z Colleen: remi`bd, look at "yourself": I'm a modularized IRC bot framework written in Common Lisp. For a list of commands, try !help . You can find my source code here: https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen
2015-03-22T12:44:01Z Shinmera: Don't play with it in here though, you can use privmsgs for that.
2015-03-22T12:44:19Z remi`bd: yeah :D Always thought about writing an IRC bot in CL
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2015-03-22T12:46:20Z SAL9000: nyef: is there a mirror somewhere?
2015-03-22T12:46:33Z nyef: I have no idea.
2015-03-22T12:47:03Z Shinmera: Who maintains it these days? ehu?
2015-03-22T12:47:57Z ehu: hi
2015-03-22T12:48:01Z ehu: what's up?
2015-03-22T12:48:05Z Shinmera: cliki is down.
2015-03-22T12:48:26Z ehu: Ah. Yes, I know. I've contacted Vladimir about it, because I can't get cliki restarted.
2015-03-22T12:48:38Z ehu: haven't heard back yet.
2015-03-22T12:49:24Z ehu: SAL9000: It's been like that since noon yesterday.
2015-03-22T12:50:21Z ehu: the cliki process reports a missing file, but that file hasn't been there for at least a week.
2015-03-22T12:50:27Z ehu: so, I'm now wondering what to do.
2015-03-22T12:50:37Z ehu: (and cliki was running perfectly fine during that week)
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2015-03-22T12:52:17Z Shinmera: The joys of miraculous bugs
2015-03-22T12:53:05Z ehu: yea. but I've been too busy working on common-lisp.net itself (and the tasks I had to delay to get the GitLab migration in place in the first place)
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2015-03-22T12:53:56Z ehu: and I don't know the code base; I've just been restarting it when it failed.
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2015-03-22T14:13:44Z drmeister: Hey everyone
2015-03-22T14:13:53Z nyef: Hello drmeister.
2015-03-22T14:14:22Z drmeister: If you have an (flet ((setf foo)...) ...) - what is the name of the implicit block of the (setf foo) local function?
2015-03-22T14:15:31Z drmeister: Oh wait - got it
2015-03-22T14:15:41Z drmeister: Glossary: function block name
2015-03-22T14:16:07Z nyef: Yeah, just got there myself.
2015-03-22T14:17:34Z drmeister: Yesh - I'm getting confused about what compilers I'm compiling my compilers with.
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2015-03-22T14:20:17Z drmeister: Last evening I compiled all of Cleavir with Cleavir and everything worked.  I ran it again overnight from start to finish and this time it complained about the implicit block symbol of the (setf foo) function in an (flet ((setf foo)...) ...).   Weird.
2015-03-22T14:20:41Z ehu: drmeister: your compiler got smarter? :-)
2015-03-22T14:20:52Z drmeister: I think it got dumber.
2015-03-22T14:21:24Z drmeister: But yeah - along those lines.
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2015-03-22T14:23:19Z drmeister: beach: Are you online?
2015-03-22T14:24:33Z drmeister: I was messing around a lot, compiling files out of sequence.
2015-03-22T14:25:35Z drmeister: I don't see any provision in the Cleavir code for extracting the "function block name" from a (setf foo) flet function name.
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2015-03-22T14:32:34Z SAL9000: drmeister: can most or all of the information Clang needs to interface to C/C++ code be gained through static analysis of the C/C++ source code concerned?
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2015-03-22T14:34:31Z beach: drmeister: It is possible.  I'll deal with it.
2015-03-22T14:34:37Z beach: But I am pretty much taking the day off.
2015-03-22T14:34:47Z SAL9000: sorry, not Clang.
2015-03-22T14:34:48Z SAL9000: mistyped.
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2015-03-22T14:34:53Z SAL9000: Clasp.
2015-03-22T14:34:55Z SAL9000: drmeister: ^
2015-03-22T14:35:06Z SAL9000: (this is what I get for going on IRC at 1am...)
2015-03-22T14:35:20Z beach: I also haven't dealt with the evaluation of non-top-level forms.
2015-03-22T14:35:35Z beach: I think it is an easy fix, but I want to understand it fully before attempting anything.
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2015-03-22T14:36:23Z drmeister: beach: It's weird because I compiled the code in the evening and this didn't come up.
2015-03-22T14:36:41Z beach: I have no explanation for that.
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2015-03-22T14:39:31Z drmeister: Neither do I.  Oh well.   I can see the problem clearly now.
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2015-03-22T14:40:49Z drmeister: SAL9000: Yes, it could be - it would require writing a small program in Common Lisp to extract that information.
2015-03-22T14:41:38Z drmeister: All of the information can be extracted from static analysis of the C/C++ source code using the Clang ASTMatcher library that is exposed within Clasp.
2015-03-22T14:41:59Z SAL9000: ah, nice, so no need for ROSE or SWIG or something
2015-03-22T14:42:15Z drmeister: I do that now to build an interface between the Memory Pool System garbage collector and my C++ code.
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2015-03-22T14:42:35Z drmeister: ROSE and SWIG:  Children playing with children's toys. ;-)
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2015-03-22T14:43:17Z SAL9000: one thing I'm not seeing is how RAII and similar patterns would work
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2015-03-22T14:43:22Z SAL9000: given that CL doesn't have destructurs
2015-03-22T14:43:39Z drmeister: Actually, I have no idea what ROSE is - so I shouldn't be so glib.
2015-03-22T14:44:17Z eugeneia: hehe
2015-03-22T14:44:17Z minion: eugeneia, memo from pjb: there's nothing useful you can do knowing the sizes of lisp types.  Why would you want to know them?
2015-03-22T14:44:19Z drmeister: I'm not sure what you mean?    Are you asking how RAII would work if you interface C++ with CL?
2015-03-22T14:44:36Z nyef: ... ROSE: A pale red wine, often swigged during the summer months?
2015-03-22T14:44:36Z SAL9000: drmeister: yes
2015-03-22T14:44:57Z SAL9000: nyef, drmeister: http://rosecompiler.org/
2015-03-22T14:45:08Z drmeister: It works fine because Clasp uses C++ exception handling for stack unwinding.
2015-03-22T14:45:18Z eugeneia: nyef: can't be called wine really
2015-03-22T14:45:28Z eugeneia: nyef: maybe for cooking
2015-03-22T14:45:35Z eugeneia: but no
2015-03-22T14:45:43Z |3b|: rose sounds more like clang/llvm than like swig
2015-03-22T14:46:44Z SAL9000: drmeister: what happens if Clasp-side code allocates an instance of a C++ class which has a destructor, stores it somewhere, then it gets garbage collected from Clang-side? If I'm understanding the situation correctly, the destructor would not be called, thus RAII would break.
2015-03-22T14:46:52Z |3b|: so you still need "rose ... or something", where "or something" is llvm
2015-03-22T14:47:00Z drmeister: Is ROSE based on LLVM or did they roll their own compiler front ends?
2015-03-22T14:47:18Z eugeneia: whos going to ELS 2015 in london? =)
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2015-03-22T14:47:57Z SAL9000: drmeister: I'm not sure about that; I haven't investigated it in detail (yet). Looks like they rolled their own, though.
2015-03-22T14:48:00Z drmeister: SAL9000: Every Clasp object is a C++ class and many have destructors - they are handled fine.
2015-03-22T14:48:10Z SAL9000: OK, so RAII works
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2015-03-22T14:48:12Z Shinmera: eugeneia: Quite a few interesting people.
2015-03-22T14:48:26Z SAL9000: what about things like unique_ptr and C++-side reference-counting?
2015-03-22T14:48:33Z eugeneia: Shinmera: Oh I am just fine with uninteresting people too :)
2015-03-22T14:48:45Z drmeister: For foreign C++ classes you specify whether pointer ownership is taken over by Clasp or not.
2015-03-22T14:49:26Z SAL9000: that makes sense
2015-03-22T14:49:31Z eugeneia is not giving a talk this year so no audio fuckups =)
2015-03-22T14:50:09Z drmeister: There is another kind of C++ class that is more intimately bound to Clasp and that are subject to moving garbage collection.   Those with destructors have finalizers set up for them.  They are also analyzed by my static analyzer to identify every pointer within them so that they can be updated when the C++ objects move in memory.
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2015-03-22T14:50:17Z Shinmera: eugenia: The ones I know of are beach, drmeister, jdz, splittist, Xach, Xof, and myself.
2015-03-22T14:51:08Z eugeneia: drmeister: Will you hold a talk on Clasp?
2015-03-22T14:51:16Z Shinmera: Accidental exclusions from that list of people that I should know of are purely due to bad memory.
2015-03-22T14:51:19Z drmeister: Yeah.
2015-03-22T14:51:22Z eugeneia: coolio
2015-03-22T14:51:40Z SAL9000: will this talk be recorded? I'd like to listen but I'm in Australia. Can't come to London that easily :(
2015-03-22T14:51:46Z eugeneia: Do we have a talk on this new Lisp OS? whats its called again?
2015-03-22T14:51:53Z eugeneia: I am super hyped about ut
2015-03-22T14:51:55Z eugeneia: *it
2015-03-22T14:52:01Z oleo: which one ?
2015-03-22T14:52:15Z Shinmera: SAL9000: I asked Xof about it, but he said he didn't know yet. Most likely they will be.
2015-03-22T14:52:22Z SAL9000: eugeneia: there is a lisp os? last I heard there was only talk about running clasp 'bare-metal' to implement such
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2015-03-22T14:52:35Z Shinmera: SAL9000: He's talking about Mezzano
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2015-03-22T14:52:42Z eugeneia: Lip OS: Mezzano
2015-03-22T14:52:45Z Shinmera: and I haven't heard of froggey coming to ELS, so I doubt it.
2015-03-22T14:52:50Z eugeneia: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
2015-03-22T14:53:06Z eugeneia: somebody should pour in their mad ass compiler skills
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2015-03-22T14:53:28Z SAL9000: oh my god someone actually did this :o
2015-03-22T14:53:38Z eugeneia: I will then *promise* to donate some manpower on a networking stack
2015-03-22T14:54:12Z eugeneia: I wan't VM farms of little lisp kernels =)
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2015-03-22T14:54:55Z SAL9000: this is beautiful
2015-03-22T14:54:57Z |3b|: SAL9000: i wouldn't call finalizers "RAII", you really want a WITH-FOO scope to match RAII
2015-03-22T14:54:58Z SAL9000: it's like emacs: the actual OS
2015-03-22T14:55:10Z eugeneia: emacs meh^^
2015-03-22T14:55:18Z nyef: eugeneia: GC first, then maybe compiler stuff.
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2015-03-22T14:55:40Z nyef: eugeneia: And, honestly, there's already a networking stack there, get hacking already! d-:
2015-03-22T14:55:42Z |3b|: consider something like using RAII to grab a lock, that is never going to end well if it doesn't get released until next GC at best :)
2015-03-22T14:56:07Z SAL9000: |3b|: there's also RAII for stuff like, say, a GPU context.
2015-03-22T14:56:19Z |3b|: right, which you also don't really want leaking indefinitely
2015-03-22T14:56:42Z |3b|: consider something that opens lots of files but doesn't allocate much, so doesn't GC often
2015-03-22T14:56:48Z SAL9000: not the kind of thing you can shove into with-foo though
2015-03-22T14:57:09Z |3b|: yeah, translating idioms between languages is hard :/
2015-03-22T14:57:15Z eugeneia: nyef: Yeah I am consulting for Snabb at the moment (next gen packet processing) thought I could maybe translate some successful ideas.
2015-03-22T14:57:34Z SAL9000: I'm thinking that lisp-side "destructors" for RAII are more of a safety-net
2015-03-22T14:58:05Z SAL9000: while the proper way would be (class:new instance) (class:destroy instance) or (with-class )
2015-03-22T14:58:24Z |3b|: sure, as long as you realize the net might not actually be raised above the floor or attached to anything :p
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2015-03-22T14:58:29Z SAL9000: so if your stuff gets garbage-collected before you call (class:destroy) it still does the Right Thing
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2015-03-22T14:59:27Z SAL9000: while locks which get released at next GC cycle are easily noticed, C++-side leaks would be notoriously harder to debug
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2015-03-22T15:00:15Z eugeneia: nyef: and I have some dreams about an erlang inspired Lisp runtime at the moment which I wan't to take to the imlementation level at some point but I'd feel bad hijacking a young project :p
2015-03-22T15:00:35Z eugeneia: what is it with me and the utterly wrong "wan't" at the moment
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2015-03-22T15:00:45Z eugeneia: horrible
2015-03-22T15:01:21Z |3b|: finalizers can still leak indefinitely though, so you could still end up with things working 99% of the time and only failing under load after a long run
2015-03-22T15:01:21Z beach: eugeneia: Turn on your spell checker.  It will catch it.
2015-03-22T15:01:22Z nyef: Mmm... It's not even like the difference between "cant" and "can't"...
2015-03-22T15:01:36Z ggole: What's it short for? "Wanna donut?"
2015-03-22T15:01:43Z |3b|: nyef: at least both of those are words :)
2015-03-22T15:01:51Z nyef: Exactly!
2015-03-22T15:02:15Z eugeneia: its not like I type it knowingly
2015-03-22T15:02:22Z nyef: Or "wont" and "won't".
2015-03-22T15:02:42Z nyef: ... No, that doesn't look right.
2015-03-22T15:02:45Z eugeneia: no "won't" is just as inexistant right?
2015-03-22T15:02:45Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-03-22T15:02:46Z SAL9000: |3b|: true, although that's nicer than things randomly failing while you're in REPL... and it's not like it's hard to add a STYLE-WARNING to this.
2015-03-22T15:03:06Z eugeneia: nyef: but I did that a lot too recently *gwarn*
2015-03-22T15:03:26Z ggole: eugeneia: I won't agree with that.
2015-03-22T15:03:51Z nyef: Yeah, that was it. "tendency" vs. "will not".
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2015-03-22T15:04:46Z ggole: Strange contraction, that one.
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2015-03-22T15:05:42Z beach: eugeneia: If you had your spell checker on, it would have caught "inexistant" as well.
2015-03-22T15:06:03Z eugeneia: yeah go all pedantic now :)
2015-03-22T15:06:48Z nyef: We have a long history, as a channel, of being pedantic about language. Just ask minion about "thwap"!
2015-03-22T15:07:20Z eugeneia: "As was her wont, she refused to let me pay."
2015-03-22T15:07:39Z eugeneia: "wont" is something I didn't even know
2015-03-22T15:07:41Z eugeneia: wow
2015-03-22T15:09:22Z nyef: Now consider the difference between "unwanted" and "unwonted". (-:
2015-03-22T15:10:14Z drmeister: beach: Maybe when I compiled everything last night it hit that error and I was typing and closed the SLDB frame before I noticed it came up.   That file (utilities/utilities.lisp) is about 19 from the end so almost everything compiled.
2015-03-22T15:11:23Z drmeister: I patched Cleavir to handle function-block-name(s)  in (defmethod convert-special ...) for flet and labels.  I'm trying it out.
2015-03-22T15:11:58Z drmeister: I'll leave the official changes to you.
2015-03-22T15:12:19Z beach: OK.
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2015-03-22T15:14:08Z drmeister: Remember how I was surprised that it was done already?  That was when I thought I'd compiled all of Cleavir within the span of a few minutes - it seemed too fast.   It still seemed to fast for 100 source files.  Oh well.
2015-03-22T15:14:19Z drmeister: That's why I ran everything from scratch overnight.
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2015-03-22T15:14:49Z beach: Yes I see.  At least you have a plausible explanation.
2015-03-22T15:15:20Z drmeister: It's a "fog of war" explanation.
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2015-03-22T15:16:43Z drmeister: I never get anything right the first time - or the second time...
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2015-03-22T15:16:55Z beach: So you say.
2015-03-22T15:16:59Z drmeister: but the fifth time - that usually works for me.
2015-03-22T15:17:11Z Shinmera: You can get everything right the first time. Just need to adapt the goals.
2015-03-22T15:17:12Z beach: I take it you have been married a few times before this one.
2015-03-22T15:17:33Z drmeister: Oh - no - that I got really, really right.
2015-03-22T15:17:42Z beach: See?
2015-03-22T15:17:51Z beach: You are too negative about things.
2015-03-22T15:17:58Z drmeister: Or let's say I got it wrong but then I got domesticated.
2015-03-22T15:18:15Z drmeister: Civilized.
2015-03-22T15:18:32Z drmeister: Something like that.
2015-03-22T15:19:27Z Shinmera: beach: I don't know if that's negative or just the result of experience.
2015-03-22T15:20:38Z pjb: -
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2015-03-22T15:20:59Z beach: Shinmera: I don't know drmeister well enough to tell.
2015-03-22T15:21:16Z beach: Anyway, time to go spend some more time with my (admittedly small) family.
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2015-03-22T15:24:08Z drmeister: Yesterday in my pridefulness I dumped the list of bitcode files generated by the build last night.   utilities.bc is in there but I don't know if it's an empty file or not.   Later when the current build finishes I'll check if any of the later files were built.
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2015-03-22T15:29:23Z ggole: Like they say, pride comes before a regression.
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2015-03-22T15:37:42Z nyef: Pride comes before getting mauled by lions?
2015-03-22T15:39:15Z drmeister: Nope - later files were built - I am completely flummoxed - I have no idea how Cleavir got built yesterday evening.
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2015-03-22T15:40:12Z drmeister: I'm pretty sure I know what's going on now though.
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2015-03-22T15:45:57Z SAL9000: ggole, drmeister: http://xkcd.com/292/
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2015-03-22T16:00:14Z drmeister: SAL9000: It's funny that you brought up what you did - I just ran into a "too many open files" error.
2015-03-22T16:00:35Z drmeister: I wasn't closing my streams in COMPILE-FILE and adding Cleavir to my build system put me over the limit.
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2015-03-22T16:03:04Z SAL9000: drmeister: perhaps opening files should be a GC trigger just as consing is?
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2015-03-22T16:03:52Z nyef: drmeister: ... So, either you're not using WITH-OPEN-FILE or you are not using a suitable UNWIND-PROTECT?
2015-03-22T16:03:58Z drmeister: Naw, this is solved with a simple WITH-OPEN-STREAM
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2015-03-22T16:04:23Z drmeister: nyef: Yes - I was OPENing the file/stream and then just abandoning it.
2015-03-22T16:05:10Z nyef: That... takes a deliberate choice, given that the default construct for opening a file should be WITH-OPEN-FILE.
2015-03-22T16:05:40Z drmeister: You know how when you are debugging and you start with "I have no idea why this isn't working"  and then after a while it's "I have no idea how anything worked before"  -  I am so there.
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2015-03-22T16:06:37Z drmeister: Is WITH-OPEN-FILE just a convenience version of WITH-OPEN-STREAM?
2015-03-22T16:06:48Z nyef: I think it might have extra semantics.
2015-03-22T16:07:27Z oleo: a file stream
2015-03-22T16:07:33Z oleo: vs. a stream alone....
2015-03-22T16:07:44Z nyef: As in, it might do different things on NLX.
2015-03-22T16:08:29Z SAL9000: NLX?
2015-03-22T16:10:07Z nyef: Non-local exit.
2015-03-22T16:10:11Z nyef: Unwind, basically.
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2015-03-22T16:18:05Z eugeneia: drmeister: classic debugging state of mind :)
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2015-03-22T16:20:14Z nyef: I still don't understand how SBCL ever worked on MIPS before I fixed it.
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2015-03-22T16:37:04Z drmeister: Are dynamic library files held open while a program that uses them runs?
2015-03-22T16:37:44Z nyef: Yes, but I don't believe that it uses up an FD for it.
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2015-03-22T16:38:15Z drmeister: I see lots of FASL files open - they are dynamic libraries
2015-03-22T16:38:37Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Y1pC9za3
2015-03-22T16:38:39Z p_l: nyef: you use an fd for them, afaik
2015-03-22T16:38:50Z p_l: because mmap uses an fd
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2015-03-22T16:46:57Z nyef: Looking at an sbcl process with lsof, all of the dynamic libraries seem to have an FD of "mem".
2015-03-22T16:48:06Z nyef: The impression that I get is that once the library is open and its spaces mapped, the actual FD is no longer required.
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2015-03-22T17:03:22Z pjb: memory mapped files are still files requiring a file descriptor. see mmap(2)!
2015-03-22T17:03:42Z pjb: notably munmap().
2015-03-22T17:04:33Z drmeister: It's ASDF that is building and loading all of those FASL files - am I in danger with large systems with lots of dependencies of running out of FDs?
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2015-03-22T17:04:54Z drmeister: If I used Caveman(2) for instance - that dependency graph was huge.
2015-03-22T17:05:06Z pjb: Of course, you'd be free to _copy_ the data from the file into RAM.  But then it wouldn't be a memory mapped file anymore, and you'd have one copy per process using the library, instead of a shared library.
2015-03-22T17:05:33Z p_l: drmeister: maybe implement merged FASLs like ECL?
2015-03-22T17:05:56Z p_l: where whole ASDF system compiles into single FASL
2015-03-22T17:06:03Z drmeister: Yeah - I should look into that.   My build system builds a merged FASL.
2015-03-22T17:06:17Z drmeister: ASDF does it by building a merged source file and compiling that into a single FASL.
2015-03-22T17:06:50Z drmeister: My build system builds separate bitcode files and links them together using LLVM.   I guess I have options here.
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2015-03-22T17:08:17Z Shinmera: Didn't people long ago tell you to write your own FASL format to avoid all the headaches of shared libraries?
2015-03-22T17:08:34Z drmeister: Probably - I don't listen to other people.
2015-03-22T17:08:37Z drmeister: What headaches?
2015-03-22T17:08:53Z Shinmera: I recall you having problem with your FASL strategy before.
2015-03-22T17:08:54Z drmeister: (sometimes I don't listen to other people).
2015-03-22T17:08:55Z pjb: You can still use shared libraries, and it might be a good idea, to promote usability of CL on unix systems.
2015-03-22T17:08:56Z Shinmera: *problems
2015-03-22T17:09:05Z drmeister: I fixed it.
2015-03-22T17:09:16Z pjb: But it would involve some layers above the basic shared library format.
2015-03-22T17:09:45Z pjb: For example, a mapped library would still have to run load-time-value expressions once per process.
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2015-03-22T17:10:19Z drmeister: I'm trying to stick to standard C/C++/unix tools.  C++ interop, shared libraries, DWARF debugging info etc.  Then I can take advantage of existing tools.
2015-03-22T17:10:20Z Shinmera: Also, generating bundled FASLs doesn't fix the problem, it just mitigates it.
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2015-03-22T17:11:14Z Shinmera: Not to mention that, if you do that, rebuilding a system will always result in a complete rebuild of the entire thing, rather than the one changed file + dependant files.
2015-03-22T17:11:15Z drmeister: Shinmera: Which problem does it mitigate?  The use of FD handles?
2015-03-22T17:11:30Z Shinmera: I thought that was the issue being discussed here?
2015-03-22T17:11:31Z pjb: You have to see it as a layered protocol.  You use elf shared library as a transport layer for your application layer.
2015-03-22T17:11:45Z drmeister: Yes - that was the topic.
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2015-03-22T17:12:07Z Shinmera: Then how do my statements imply that I'm talking about anything but that?
2015-03-22T17:12:46Z drmeister: Shinmera: Yes, changing something in the core Common Lisp requires a rebuild of the image.
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2015-03-22T17:13:38Z drmeister: Hopefully I'll reach a point where that won't be required as often.   Also, building a single bitcode file and then reusing the rest is a lot faster - but it doesn't work if you change a macro.
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2015-03-22T17:13:51Z Shinmera: I'm not talking about your core CL. I'm talking about any library ever. ASDF normally generates a FASL per each file. Bundling the FASLs together into one per system was suggested. I'm saying that doesn't solve the problem, nor is it a nice mitigation strategy.
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2015-03-22T17:14:30Z pjb: Right. You'd have to consider those fasl as .o and have a phase to gather them into a .so file.
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2015-03-22T17:14:45Z pjb: You'd have a .so per system.
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2015-03-22T17:15:20Z drmeister: Shinmera: I agree - but I think it's part of the cost of doing business.  But you have a choice - you can build things piecemeal using ASDF and then when you want to build a production FASL you can build one big FASL.
2015-03-22T17:15:24Z drmeister: That's what I'm doing now.
2015-03-22T17:16:19Z drmeister: I just finished compiling Cleavir/Clasp with Cleavir/Clasp compiled with the bootstrapping compiler - it takes about an hour.
2015-03-22T17:16:31Z drmeister: This time I'm certain everything works.
2015-03-22T17:16:33Z Shinmera: On Mac, I'm guessing?
2015-03-22T17:16:39Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-03-22T17:16:41Z drmeister: Mac
2015-03-22T17:16:47Z drmeister: two year old MBP
2015-03-22T17:16:58Z Shinmera: Can't wait for my one week build time on linux then :)
2015-03-22T17:17:08Z drmeister: Now I'll generate the one big FASL.
2015-03-22T17:18:12Z drmeister: Actually - I can do something else first.  Load Clasp with no image and load all of the bitcode files in sequence JITting them as it goes.
2015-03-22T17:19:57Z drmeister: Hmm, that's a bit of a problem - I don't have the full list of bitcode files at that point.
2015-03-22T17:20:16Z drmeister: Bootstrapping (snort)
2015-03-22T17:22:11Z drmeister: I use a list of symbols that get converted into PATHNAMEs - it's a bit Byzantine.
2015-03-22T17:22:15Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/kl69FGtY
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2015-03-22T17:22:43Z pjb: Why not strings?
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2015-03-22T17:23:30Z drmeister: Pathnames would be more useful.   I think I did it this way because when I first implemented this I didn't have pathnames.
2015-03-22T17:23:55Z pjb: physical namestrings are strings.
2015-03-22T17:24:17Z pjb: they're require very little pathname mechanism implemented to be useful.
2015-03-22T17:24:24Z pjb: s/'re//
2015-03-22T17:24:43Z drmeister: I had zero at the time.   I'll switch to pathnames now.
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2015-03-22T17:26:07Z drmeister: There are also keyword symbols in there - they are a way of specifying intermediate stages that I can load and compile to.
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2015-03-22T17:38:44Z francogrex: msg?
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2015-03-22T17:41:06Z pjb: I see how disappointed you are…
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2015-03-22T17:42:08Z francogrex: not as much as when I get no messages of facebook!
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2015-03-22T17:43:53Z drmeister: Facebook always tells me "you have 0 friends" (apologies to South Park)
2015-03-22T17:45:40Z pjb: The only facebook accounts I have are named xyz-develop or abc-test or something :-)
2015-03-22T17:45:41Z faheem_: zero is the luckiest number. When it comes to Facebook.
2015-03-22T17:45:45Z francogrex: drmeister: you're lucky trust me
2015-03-22T17:47:14Z Shinmera: Whadda ya mean "lucky", it's your choice to log on to facebook or whether you keep your profile at all.
2015-03-22T17:48:32Z pjb: Not always.
2015-03-22T17:48:36Z drmeister: The exercise of trying to load all the bitcode files was useful - it uncovered some files that were missing IN-PACKAGE forms
2015-03-22T17:48:49Z faheem_: Shinmera: maybe Facebook created his profile spontaneously. It does that sometimes.
2015-03-22T17:49:01Z pjb: Also, give the groupthink of the general population, I don't see any freedom  of choice in those matters.
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2015-03-22T17:49:58Z drmeister is just kidding - he has Facebook friends - he chooses to ignore them.
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2015-03-22T17:52:29Z drmeister: Except for the posts about cats - since like about half the world population I probably carry Toxoplasma gondii - I like cats.
2015-03-22T17:52:33Z faheem_: drmeister: I'm tempted to send you  a friend request.
2015-03-22T17:52:38Z drmeister: Toxoplasma gondii is the reason we have the internet.
2015-03-22T17:53:32Z ggole waits for drmeister to be mauled by cats
2015-03-22T17:59:27Z drmeister: It's a parasite that makes rats seek out cats. It infects humans and makes us friendlier, slightly stupider and like cats. The Internet is full of cat pictures - you see where I'm going with this.
2015-03-22T18:00:14Z drmeister: In France about 85% of the population is infected.
2015-03-22T18:00:59Z drmeister: That's probably why they are stereotyped as great lovers and surrender monkeys.
2015-03-22T18:02:07Z drmeister: Did you hear about the French Swiss Army knife?
2015-03-22T18:02:33Z drmeister: It has a corkscrew and ten white flags.
2015-03-22T18:02:49Z faheem_: drmeister: that all sounds like myth.
2015-03-22T18:02:54Z faheem_: posing as science.
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2015-03-22T18:03:15Z drmeister: Oh god I hope b_e_a_c_h doesn't read this. 😄
2015-03-22T18:03:34Z pjb: He's Swedish.
2015-03-22T18:03:41Z drmeister: Look it up.
2015-03-22T18:04:15Z drmeister: Hard science with a little interpretation
2015-03-22T18:04:40Z drmeister: Back off man, I'm a scientist.
2015-03-22T18:04:52Z pjb: There's no point in fighting unwinnable wars.  You USians should know that, but no, you're still doing it, after half a dozen unwinnable war lost.
2015-03-22T18:05:53Z drmeister: I agree - also, I'm Canadian by birth. We are largely pacifists.
2015-03-22T18:05:57Z pjb: And besides unwinable wars, there's also not-one-s-war wars.
2015-03-22T18:06:17Z pjb: Why should the people (99.99%) fight capitalists (0.01%) wars?
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2015-03-22T18:07:49Z drmeister: No argument from me.
2015-03-22T18:07:56Z drmeister: No argument from me.
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2015-03-22T18:09:25Z drmeister: I was watching a Ted talk by Dean Kamen about his Slingshot water purification system. I agree with him that we should be shipping those out rather than bombs.
2015-03-22T18:10:06Z drmeister: Sorry - waaaay off topic. I'll stop now.
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2015-03-22T18:56:59Z ejbs: I thought beach was German
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2015-03-22T19:09:54Z beach: pjb: I am European.
2015-03-22T19:11:08Z mood: beach: Sounds like ELS is made for you
2015-03-22T19:11:30Z beach: That's one way of putting it.  I actually organized the first one.
2015-03-22T19:11:52Z mood: Ok, made *by* you
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2015-03-22T19:12:08Z cluck: history burn!
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2015-03-22T19:12:31Z beach: Pascal Costanza invented it.  He asked me to organize the first one.
2015-03-22T19:12:47Z mood: This is getting complicated...
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2015-03-22T19:13:57Z mood: I'm still not sure if I can/want to go to ELS2015
2015-03-22T19:14:00Z beach: Yeah.  Unimportant trivia.
2015-03-22T19:14:39Z beach: mood: I recommend it.
2015-03-22T19:14:53Z beach: I trust Xof will do a great job on the orgainzation.
2015-03-22T19:14:59Z beach: organization.
2015-03-22T19:15:15Z cluck: it's sad we're still defined by sets of imaginary lines in the sand, we should be making universal lisp symposiums, radioing invites to aliens from arecibo
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2015-03-22T19:15:55Z beach: cluck: Everybody is invited to this one.  There were two submissions from Japan and several from the US.
2015-03-22T19:16:09Z beach: No lines in the sand here.
2015-03-22T19:16:43Z aeth: cluck: I'm guessing that there are various practical reasons for different regional events, including time zones, expense of travel, and borders (e.g. Schengen Area in Europe)
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2015-03-22T19:19:33Z shka: hi
2015-03-22T19:20:27Z ejbs: beach: Do you still live in Sweden? If I may ask
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2015-03-22T19:21:04Z beach: I live in France, which is probably why drmeister thinks I am French.  I have lived longer outside Sweden than inside at this point.
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2015-03-22T19:21:52Z mood: It'd be really useful to know the general outline of the ELS programme, for hotel reservations and the like. Hmm
2015-03-22T19:22:11Z Odin-: beach: I don't see how it's limited by lines in the sand unless people from outside the region are actively prevented from attending. Is that the case?
2015-03-22T19:22:13Z beach: mood: It should be imminent.
2015-03-22T19:22:23Z beach: mood: The review process is finished.
2015-03-22T19:23:08Z beach: Odin-: I just said that everybody is invited and cited several submissions from other continents.
2015-03-22T19:23:19Z beach: Did you miss it?
2015-03-22T19:24:32Z beach: Odin-: Xach is a keynote speaker.  He is USAsian.
2015-03-22T19:24:39Z Odin-: Hm. No, but apparently my IRC client colours you and cluck far too similarly.
2015-03-22T19:24:48Z beach: Oh.
2015-03-22T19:24:53Z Odin-: Sorry.
2015-03-22T19:25:10Z beach: No problem.
2015-03-22T19:25:55Z mood: beach: Nice, I can wait a few more days. Everything seems pretty affordable, so that shouldn't be a problem. (I'm a student, so the registration fee of only 60 euro also helps.)
2015-03-22T19:26:32Z beach: mood: Yeah, we decided on low registration fees from the beginning, especially for students.   I think that's a good thing.
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2015-03-22T19:27:22Z beach: mood: I told Shinmera (but he was not interested) that one time I visited Golsmiths I stayed in a student dorm for a few nights.  It was OK for a few nights.  No luxury of course.  That option might be open to you.
2015-03-22T19:28:27Z beach: mood: All reasonable hotels were fully booked because of some major event so I had no choice.  But it was good because it was just across the street from where the ELS venue is going to be.
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2015-03-22T19:29:10Z faheem_: beach:  Goldsmiths College, U of L?
2015-03-22T19:29:11Z mood: beach: I could consider something like that, but money isn't much of a problem and I like the hotel experience a lot more
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2015-03-22T19:29:30Z beach: faheem_: Yes, it is indicated on the ELS website.
2015-03-22T19:29:39Z faheem_: mood: college dorms can be better places to meet people.
2015-03-22T19:29:49Z beach: mood: That's what Shinmera said too.
2015-03-22T19:29:53Z beach: Just saying...
2015-03-22T19:30:17Z drmeister: beach: it took about an hour to compile cleavir/clasp with Cleavir/clasp compiled with the bootstrapping compiler. On modern MacBook Pro
2015-03-22T19:30:33Z beach: drmeister: Not too bad.
2015-03-22T19:30:44Z Shinmera: For once when I get pinged it isn't about my libraries being broken. And I was already terrified.
2015-03-22T19:31:16Z drmeister: A good timing comparison will be to compile it with itself compiled by itself
2015-03-22T19:31:38Z beach: drmeister: Yes!  Be sure to remember the timings.
2015-03-22T19:32:25Z drmeister: That will test a lot of code all at once.
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2015-03-22T19:32:37Z beach: drmeister: Did I tell you that if you bring your copy of Lisp in Small Pieces, you can have it signed by the translator for sure, and likely by the author as well.
2015-03-22T19:32:39Z beach: ?
2015-03-22T19:33:06Z drmeister: Yes. I'll try to bring it.
2015-03-22T19:33:30Z beach: I'll tell the translator to bring her favorite pen.
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2015-03-22T19:34:00Z Shinmera has to practise more traditional drawing again.
2015-03-22T19:34:25Z beach: drmeister: I should go.  Talk tomorrow morning UTC+1 maybe.
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2015-03-22T19:37:09Z mood: Shinmera: The fact that people ping you about library breakage could also be a positive statement about the general quality of the whole.
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2015-03-22T19:37:47Z Shinmera: I didn't mean it in a negative way at all. I'm really grateful for all feedback. I'm just also a very anxious person.
2015-03-22T19:37:48Z mood: If it's all completely broken, someone is more likely to give up
2015-03-22T19:37:48Z faheem_: well, it means people are actually using it.
2015-03-22T19:38:00Z mood: That too
2015-03-22T19:38:08Z faheem_: Shinmera: try dance. or yoga. either, or both.
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2015-03-22T19:39:05Z Shinmera: Thanks for the suggestion, but I think I'll stick to drawing, reading, writing, coding, singing, and playing games for now.
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2015-03-22T19:39:34Z mood: It's a wonder you get so much code written, with all of those other things taking up time
2015-03-22T19:39:34Z That_Engineer: I'm new to lisp and have been using vim for a long time. Everything I've read has said to use emacs for lisp. My question is: why do so many lispers use emacs?
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2015-03-22T19:39:57Z H4ns: That_Engineer: there is very good integration of lisp development into emacs
2015-03-22T19:39:57Z faheem_: That_Engineer: SLIME is a very good interface.
2015-03-22T19:39:59Z Shinmera: mood: The secret is that they don't take up much time at all, except for when I'm not coding or slacking off.
2015-03-22T19:40:03Z faheem_: for lack of a better term.
2015-03-22T19:40:11Z faheem_: That_Engineer: have you tried SLIME?
2015-03-22T19:40:21Z H4ns: That_Engineer: as we are using interactive development, a good integrated editor is very vital
2015-03-22T19:40:32Z faheem_: Unfortunate name, but that's hackers for you. Not in the marketing business.
2015-03-22T19:40:40Z Shinmera: That_Engineer: It's a combination of SLIME being great, elisp being "close", and history.
2015-03-22T19:41:05Z That_Engineer: faheem_: not yet. I've been suffering through trying to use vim and lisp. Now I give up and what to learn about emacs.
2015-03-22T19:41:08Z mood: That_Engineer: Some people are very happy with SLIMV though, so don't let all the Emacs talk put you off
2015-03-22T19:41:12Z faheem_: Shinmera: those don't sound like very social activities. well, except possibly for the singing and games. depending.
2015-03-22T19:41:23Z faheem_: SLIMV?
2015-03-22T19:41:36Z That_Engineer: Haven't checked that out yet.
2015-03-22T19:41:37Z mood: Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Vim
2015-03-22T19:41:39Z Shinmera: faheem_: My social interaction is IRC channels and twitter.
2015-03-22T19:41:52Z faheem_: Shinmera: blimey.
2015-03-22T19:42:08Z faheem_: you need to get out more.
2015-03-22T19:42:17Z Shinmera: That_Engineer: There's also packages to make emacs more vim-y
2015-03-22T19:42:34Z Shinmera: faheem_: Nah.
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2015-03-22T19:42:47Z faheem_: Shinmera: :-)
2015-03-22T19:43:04Z faheem_: That_Engineer: SLIME is very good. Try it.
2015-03-22T19:43:17Z aeth: Is the French version of Lisp in Small Pieces still available of that book somewhere? Je peux lire des livres en français.
2015-03-22T19:43:21Z faheem_: Of course, you might not like emacs. Some people don't.
2015-03-22T19:43:44Z faheem_: mood: oh, never heard of that. Is that like SLIME?
2015-03-22T19:44:24Z Shinmera: aeth: Le titre français est "Les Langages Lisp".
2015-03-22T19:45:26Z aeth: Merci.
2015-03-22T19:45:35Z mood: faheem_: Yes. It's not bad. I used it for a few months before moving on to Emacs
2015-03-22T19:45:40Z Shinmera: Pas du tout
2015-03-22T19:45:54Z Bike: aeth: author's page has some links. http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html
2015-03-22T19:46:18Z Bike: course, it's out of date, because academia...
2015-03-22T19:46:41Z mood: LiSP is one expensive book
2015-03-22T19:47:06Z aeth: The new title: Principes d'implantation de Scheme et Lisp
2015-03-22T19:47:12Z Bike: again, academia
2015-03-22T19:48:02Z That_Engineer: Is the integration between emacs, slime, and lisp worth the change? I'm willing to switch if it is worth it.
2015-03-22T19:48:12Z Bike: it is pretty great, yes.
2015-03-22T19:48:26Z Xach: That_Engineer: it's hard for someone other than you to say how much you value vim
2015-03-22T19:48:46Z Xach: Emacs's CL integration is better than anything else right now, though.
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2015-03-22T19:49:00Z faheem_: mood: oh, ok.
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2015-03-22T19:50:01Z faheem_: That_Engineer: you could just play with it. If you don't use emacs bells and whistles, it isn't significantly harder to use than pico/nano.
2015-03-22T19:50:04Z shka: That_Engineer: emacs integration with processes is in general superior to vim's
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2015-03-22T19:50:30Z shka: so even if you code in c, debugging with gdb in emacs is nicer
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2015-03-22T19:50:54Z shka: plus spacemacs is rather cool
2015-03-22T19:50:59Z shka: and saves a lot of time on customization
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2015-03-22T19:52:01Z shka: emacs holds edge in a couple more areas as well
2015-03-22T19:52:23Z Shinmera: editor_wars.txt
2015-03-22T19:52:28Z shka: however, it is not minimalistic editor and for some reason some users do not like that
2015-03-22T19:52:39Z shka: Shinmera: yeah, more less
2015-03-22T19:52:46Z shka: but i represent the voice of reason
2015-03-22T19:52:48Z shka: ;-)
2015-03-22T19:52:56Z That_Engineer: I'm not trying to start a flame war between vim/vi and emacs.
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2015-03-22T19:53:18Z Shinmera: Some people will even if you don't want them to
2015-03-22T19:53:33Z That_Engineer: Sadly...
2015-03-22T19:53:43Z Shinmera: Either way, consensus seems to be: Give it a shot, if you don't like emacs you can use slimv.
2015-03-22T19:53:54Z shka: yeah
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2015-03-22T19:54:03Z That_Engineer: Yep. Working on installing emacs and slime now to give it a try.
2015-03-22T19:54:09Z shka: you may try spacemacs as well
2015-03-22T19:54:21Z shka: i really enjoy using it
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2015-03-22T19:55:43Z aeth: emacs 24 is nice. It has its own package manager now. You don't have to track down random github repos and put them in ~/.emacs.d/vendor/ when you want to use a language emacs doesn't have a built-in mode for.
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2015-03-22T19:58:10Z aeth: paredit for emacs is the only autocompletion in an IDE that actually is usable for me. If I type ( and it automatically adds a ), I don't unbalance my parentheses if my muscle memory makes me type a usless ). It just overwrites the ) instead of placing a new one.
2015-03-22T19:59:02Z mood: aeth: Slimv actually has paredit, btw
2015-03-22T19:59:07Z Quadrescence: ) does something much more important that a no-op!
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2015-03-22T19:59:41Z Quadrescence: But ultimately both Emacs and vi are bad because you can't program either editor in Common Lisp. ;)
2015-03-22T19:59:53Z pjb: Exactly.
2015-03-22T20:00:04Z mood: How's Climacs?
2015-03-22T20:00:06Z aeth: Quadrescence: emacs is GPL if anyone wants to give it a try
2015-03-22T20:00:29Z Quadrescence: mood, There are some good ideas, but it does not match in any sense of the word Emacs.
2015-03-22T20:00:29Z Shinmera: mood: An emacs implementation in CL.
2015-03-22T20:00:40Z Shinmera: Whoops, I read that for "What"
2015-03-22T20:00:42Z Shinmera: beh.
2015-03-22T20:00:45Z Quadrescence: And it depends on McCLIM which is kind of buggy still.
2015-03-22T20:00:55Z Xach hasn't been able to get comfortable with emacses in CL
2015-03-22T20:01:00Z Shinmera: Aren't there already other rewrites of it in the plans or something?
2015-03-22T20:01:44Z Quadrescence: McCLIM is being worked on by alastair I think.
2015-03-22T20:02:04Z Quadrescence: beach wants to do CLIM3 among his other 20 gigantic projects I think.
2015-03-22T20:02:14Z mood: beach has a Second-Climacs repository. It uses his CLIMatis
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2015-03-22T20:02:20Z Quadrescence: yes
2015-03-22T20:02:41Z mood: Last time I asked it wasn't usable, if I remember correctly
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2015-03-22T20:22:01Z faheem_: Typo alert on the ELS site: Edmund Weitz — University of Applied Scicences, Hamburg, Germany
2015-03-22T20:22:16Z faheem_: Should be "Sciences"
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2015-03-22T20:22:50Z drmeister: That_Engineer: I used vi for 20 years or so and then switched to emacs to work with lisp. I never looked back.
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2015-03-22T20:23:38Z That_Engineer: drmeister: That's good to know. I've only been using vim for 5ish years, maybe a bit more. So I'm not THAT invested in it.
2015-03-22T20:23:42Z mood: drmeister: Do you use something like Evil?
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2015-03-22T20:27:21Z drmeister: mood: no I prefer to use tools in their simplest form
2015-03-22T20:27:59Z drmeister: The less configuration the more portable
2015-03-22T20:28:08Z drmeister: They are
2015-03-22T20:28:36Z That_Engineer: drmeister: right now I'm running through the built in emacs tutorial. Do you have any other recommendations?
2015-03-22T20:29:18Z drmeister: Nope. Look forward to slime. It's awesome
2015-03-22T20:29:28Z That_Engineer: Good deal.
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2015-03-22T20:32:00Z drmeister: It's the most fluid programming experience in existence
2015-03-22T20:32:40Z Shinmera: *that you know of
2015-03-22T20:34:02Z drmeister: I've used a lot of them. Im going to go with in existence 😊
2015-03-22T20:34:32Z drmeister: Small talk is the only thing that comes close.
2015-03-22T20:34:36Z drmeister: L
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2015-03-22T20:38:07Z drmeister: Given the amount of infrastructure that a smalltalk code browser requires its remarkable how fluid slime is on a tty display.
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2015-03-22T20:48:05Z cluck: That_Engineer: the help menu is your friend, use it often
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