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2015-03-21T00:04:01Z emaczen: ,(type-of (make-array '(2 2) :element-type 'integer))
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2015-03-21T00:04:20Z Bicyclidine: afleck: i think #clfswm might exist.
2015-03-21T00:04:28Z Bicyclidine: nevermind.
2015-03-21T00:04:30Z emaczen: How do I evaluate that here? I'm wondering why I keep getting a simple-array of T rather than integer
2015-03-21T00:04:42Z Bicyclidine: we don't have an eval bot.
2015-03-21T00:05:03Z Bicyclidine: probably upgrading, though.
2015-03-21T00:05:23Z Bicyclidine: since you specified integer, that includes bignums, so there's little point in an implementation having arrays that can only hold integers.
2015-03-21T00:06:03Z Bicyclidine: if you do (upgraded-array-element-type 'integer) you'll probably get T.
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2015-03-21T00:08:14Z nyef: That sounds about right. INTEGER is not one of the mandated specialized array types.
2015-03-21T00:08:47Z Bicyclidine: *can hold any integers and no non-integers, to be a bit more precise
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2015-03-21T00:10:41Z emaczen: thanks guys
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2015-03-21T00:26:17Z emaczen: How can I tell SBCL to optimize everything that it compiles?
2015-03-21T00:26:39Z Bicyclidine: it does that anyway
2015-03-21T00:26:40Z Bicyclidine: clhs optimize
2015-03-21T00:26:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm
2015-03-21T00:26:44Z Bicyclidine: if you want to be specific
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2015-03-21T00:30:37Z emaczen: Byiclidine: Does this mean that SBCL is placing a (declare (optimize ... )) expression in every possible form that it is allowed?
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2015-03-21T00:32:03Z Bicyclidine: no, just that it has an optimizing compiler.
2015-03-21T00:32:27Z Bicyclidine: though i'm not entirely sure what a non optimizing compiler would be. just really stupid?
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2015-03-21T00:34:13Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: What are the implications of SBCL's optimizing compiler and common-lisp's declarations?
2015-03-21T00:34:32Z emaczen: Or what is the best practice for using declarations in common-lisp?
2015-03-21T00:35:15Z Bicyclidine: um, like if you want an area of code to go faster you could throw in (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))), and sbcl's compiler will do more complicated analyses and cut more corners to make it go faster.
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2015-03-21T00:36:24Z emaczen: If I do this to a generic function will all the methods be optimized as well?
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2015-03-21T00:37:40Z Bicyclidine: Uh... I think declarations in the defgeneric only apply to the gf itself, so like dispatch and stuff. Don't quote me on that.
2015-03-21T00:38:42Z emaczen: Alright, I just pulled up the SBCL manual so I'll keep digging.
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2015-03-21T00:43:12Z warweasle: Quick cffi question. What is the "proper" way to handle ORing enums?
2015-03-21T00:43:25Z Bicyclidine: use a bitfield instead?
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2015-03-21T00:45:12Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: Do you have an example?
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2015-03-21T00:46:33Z Bicyclidine: cffi manual has one with open https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/defbitfield.html
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2015-03-21T00:49:31Z emaczen: Where does signed-byte fall into the type hierarchy?
2015-03-21T00:49:33Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: Thanks. I completely missed that!
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2015-03-21T00:50:27Z Bicyclidine: emaczen: without a number argument it's equivalent to integer, iirc.
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2015-03-21T00:50:56Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: I can only seem to get a (signed-byte 8)
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2015-03-21T00:51:11Z Bicyclidine: that means a signed byte that is eight bits in length, so that's more specific
2015-03-21T00:51:44Z Bicyclidine: (signed-byte 8) = (integer -128 127), i think.
2015-03-21T00:51:47Z emaczen: Yes, I forgot to specify that I only need 4 bytes
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2015-03-21T00:53:42Z emaczen: I'm passing (signed-byte 4) to make-array and it still tells me that the type is (signed-byte 8)
2015-03-21T00:54:25Z Bicyclidine: upgrading again.
2015-03-21T00:54:46Z emaczen: Alright, I'm going to go read about upgrading then...
2015-03-21T00:54:51Z Bicyclidine: it's always a subtype - all (signed-byte 4)s are also (signed-byte 8)s.
2015-03-21T00:54:55Z nyef: You can get (unsigned-byte 1) arrays, at least.
2015-03-21T00:55:28Z emaczen: clhs upgrade
2015-03-21T00:55:29Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for upgrade.
2015-03-21T00:55:33Z emaczen: clhs upgrading
2015-03-21T00:55:34Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for upgrading.
2015-03-21T00:55:44Z Bicyclidine: clhs upgraded-array-element-type
2015-03-21T00:55:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm
2015-03-21T00:55:48Z Bicyclidine: checkit
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2015-03-21T00:59:58Z |3b|: if you want 4 (8-bit) bytes, you want (signed-byte 32) not (signed-byte 4)
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2015-03-21T01:01:29Z nyef: clhs upgraded-complex-part-type
2015-03-21T01:01:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgrad.htm
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2015-03-21T01:04:55Z emaczen: |3b| oops, I only need 4 bits... not bytes
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2015-03-21T01:29:07Z burtons: i think i might be missing something about macros
2015-03-21T01:29:21Z burtons: i've defined one that updates a hash table
2015-03-21T01:29:46Z burtons: when i recompile the file from slime, the calls that use the definition work fine and replace the values in a fresh hash table
2015-03-21T01:30:16Z burtons: but when i just eval the expressions that use the macro with C-c C-c in slime, they don't redefine the values in the hash table
2015-03-21T01:30:26Z Bicyclidine: paste the definition?
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2015-03-21T01:31:10Z burtons: http://paste.lisp.org/+34YT
2015-03-21T01:32:17Z Bicyclidine: okay, so what are the calls that work in a file but not at the repl?
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2015-03-21T01:32:53Z burtons: http://paste.lisp.org/+34YT/1
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2015-03-21T01:36:13Z burtons: the macro only seems to work on a fresh hash table, which seems to be why it works during full file compilation.
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2015-03-21T01:39:29Z _death: don't use nconc on an object you don't own
2015-03-21T01:40:02Z burtons: query-args?
2015-03-21T01:40:03Z Bicyclidine: that nconc seems ok to me
2015-03-21T01:40:13Z burtons: i thought it would be
2015-03-21T01:40:21Z burtons: i build args and kwargs
2015-03-21T01:40:34Z Bicyclidine: args is a fresh list, and kwargs's head is fresh
2015-03-21T01:40:55Z Bicyclidine: i mean, you could try using append instead just in case.
2015-03-21T01:40:57Z _death: yeah
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2015-03-21T01:41:43Z burtons: not the issue
2015-03-21T01:41:57Z _death: missed that.. anyway I'd use append or (,@args ,@kwargs)
2015-03-21T01:42:49Z Bicyclidine: components is a list, right? don't you need the other hash table to be :test 'equal too?
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2015-03-21T01:43:30Z burtons: *handers* is keyed on an number, which i guess could really be an array
2015-03-21T01:43:46Z burtons: the components table is keyed on a list
2015-03-21T01:43:55Z burtons: and the last table is keyed on a symbol
2015-03-21T01:44:27Z Bicyclidine: I mean, you do (gethash ',components handlers), so if components is a list handlers should really be a :test 'equal.
2015-03-21T01:44:46Z Bicyclidine: and handlers is the hashtables you make earlier.
2015-03-21T01:44:58Z burtons: ah there we go
2015-03-21T01:45:05Z burtons: had my table tests mixed up
2015-03-21T01:45:14Z burtons: thanks
2015-03-21T01:45:41Z burtons thanks another set of eyes
2015-03-21T01:45:52Z Bicyclidine: i don't think you need the table on lengths, also
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2015-03-21T01:46:02Z burtons: it's just an optmization
2015-03-21T01:46:19Z burtons: breaking the handler tables up on the number of components in the path
2015-03-21T01:46:36Z burtons: just a bit of premature optimization
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2015-03-21T01:46:52Z Bicyclidine: it seems pretty premature, yeah... i mean if nothing else surely you could use an array instead.
2015-03-21T01:46:56Z burtons: and like i said, now that i've thought about it, it should really be an array
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2015-03-21T01:47:24Z Bicyclidine: oh, did you? i missed that, sorry.
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2015-03-21T01:48:33Z burtons: np
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2015-03-21T01:49:41Z burtons: there, it's now an array
2015-03-21T01:50:28Z burtons: and really the inner hash table should be an alist
2015-03-21T01:50:39Z Bicyclidine: it really doesn't seem like an actual optimization, though. you have one array access and one hash lookup, versus one hash lookup in a slightly more occupied table.
2015-03-21T01:50:48Z burtons: it's never going to have more than 10 elements in it
2015-03-21T01:50:51Z burtons: no
2015-03-21T01:51:03Z burtons: to match the handlers you have to scan the hash table
2015-03-21T01:51:14Z Bicyclidine: yes, that's the hash lookup.
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2015-03-21T01:51:28Z burtons: not quite, it's not a normal lookup
2015-03-21T01:52:00Z burtons: thinking about it more, even the second table doesn't need to be a hash table
2015-03-21T01:52:07Z burtons: it should also be an array
2015-03-21T01:52:34Z burtons: i think...
2015-03-21T01:54:52Z burtons: no, it should be a table, i don't want duplicate signatures
2015-03-21T01:55:09Z burtons: just easier bookkeeping
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2015-03-21T01:57:18Z emaczen: I'm trying to get 'M-x slime-sprof-report' to work. Does anybody get a response from emacs that says "symbols function definition is void: slime-make-popup-buffer"
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2015-03-21T01:58:13Z emaczen: I'm loading the slime-sprof contrib
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2015-03-21T02:00:18Z emaczen: general profiling help would be useful as well
2015-03-21T02:00:35Z burtons: i just use the sb-sprof:with-profiling macro
2015-03-21T02:00:51Z burtons: it dumps a lot of output but it's useful
2015-03-21T02:01:17Z emaczen: I'll try that in a second
2015-03-21T02:01:35Z drmeister: I've cloned the slime repository to fix swank/clasp - how do I hook it into my emacs?   I don't see any links to slime in the .emacs, or .local/emacs/init.el (my init file).
2015-03-21T02:02:13Z burtons: add the slime directory to your load path
2015-03-21T02:02:22Z burtons: and then (require 'slime-autoloads)
2015-03-21T02:02:30Z burtons: if that's what you mean
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2015-03-21T02:03:21Z emaczen: burtons: So, I want to profile this function that isn't terminating, will that still work?
2015-03-21T02:03:53Z burtons: not sure what happens if you kill a with-profiling call
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2015-03-21T02:05:50Z emaczen: burtons: Is there a way to get profiling results while the program is running
2015-03-21T02:06:02Z emaczen: I'm running sb-prof:with-profiling on my function right now
2015-03-21T02:06:19Z Bicyclidine: sb-prof has other methods of use that don't involve dynamic extent so much.
2015-03-21T02:06:25Z burtons: i don't know if you can get a report with partial results
2015-03-21T02:06:34Z burtons: maybe check the manual
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2015-03-21T02:09:07Z emaczen: Yeah, for 'with-profiling' the manual says "at the end"
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2015-03-21T02:09:58Z Bicyclidine: wait, are you using sprof or profile
2015-03-21T02:10:13Z emaczen: sprof
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2015-03-21T02:10:47Z Bicyclidine: oh. well, you can use start-profiling, etc., and then report at the end
2015-03-21T02:11:30Z drmeister: burtons: Somehow slime is already configured in my emacs.   M-x slime starts slime  but there is no slime directory mentioned in any configuration file that I can see - I'm concerned about one slime configuration overriding the other.
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2015-03-21T02:12:01Z burtons: drmeister: did you install it with apt-get?
2015-03-21T02:12:54Z drmeister: I'm pretty sure I did it with "Options -> Manage Emacs Packages"
2015-03-21T02:13:10Z burtons: oh, i'm not familiar with elpa and such
2015-03-21T02:13:13Z burtons: i just install by hand
2015-03-21T02:13:45Z burtons: just try adding (add-to-list 'load-path "/path/to/slime") to you init.el
2015-03-21T02:13:46Z drmeister: I know - it was so convenient, I couldn't help myself.  Now I pay the price for taking the easy path.
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2015-03-21T02:13:57Z Bicyclidine: well it's gotta be initialized somewhere.
2015-03-21T02:13:58Z burtons: heh
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2015-03-21T02:15:10Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: What does 'Control stack guard page temporarily disabled: proceed with caution'
2015-03-21T02:15:37Z burtons: sounds like a stack overflow
2015-03-21T02:15:44Z Bicyclidine: infinite recursion, generally
2015-03-21T02:15:46Z emaczen: This is what I am getting after running the function that I selected for profiling with "(sb-profile:profile)"
2015-03-21T02:16:06Z Bicyclidine: that is interesting but i have no idea how it is happening, sorry.
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2015-03-21T02:18:50Z emaczen: It only happens when I used "trace" or profiling
2015-03-21T02:20:27Z nyef: emaczen: What functions are you trying to trace or profile?
2015-03-21T02:20:34Z nyef: emaczen: And what sort of system are you on?
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2015-03-21T02:20:50Z nyef: IIRC, some systems are too slow to be able to run the statistical profiler.
2015-03-21T02:23:01Z emaczen: I'm trying to profile a function that I wrote
2015-03-21T02:23:14Z emaczen: I'm on a 2010 laptop
2015-03-21T02:23:25Z emaczen: x86-64 intel i7
2015-03-21T02:23:56Z nyef: Okay, so that's plausibly not it... Unless it's recursive?
2015-03-21T02:24:06Z emaczen: It's recursive
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2015-03-21T02:24:34Z nyef: Possibly tail-recursive, but in such a way that causes it to be notinline?
2015-03-21T02:25:35Z nyef: With enough frames, all stacks are shallow.
2015-03-21T02:25:39Z drmeister: Found it.   ~/.emacs.d/elpa/slime-xxx
2015-03-21T02:26:15Z drmeister: I deleted that directory and now my cloned version is being used - yay.
2015-03-21T02:26:31Z emaczen: So all the recursive calls happen in the inner-cond form and nothing happens after the recursive call but I don't know if the outer-cond form would prevent that from being tail-call optimized
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2015-03-21T02:28:06Z nyef: emaczen: If it's just nested CONDs, it probably wouldn't prevent tail-call optimization.
2015-03-21T02:28:37Z pillton: Is there a way to make SETF not introduce a lexical environment for constant forms? e.g. http://paste.lisp.org/display/146407
2015-03-21T02:29:10Z Bicyclidine: no, it's part of how setf works. why?
2015-03-21T02:29:14Z emaczen: It's just a pair of nested CONDs and the functions that are called are all defmethod's
2015-03-21T02:29:35Z pillton: It is annoying. I can't dispatch at compile time because of it.
2015-03-21T02:29:39Z nyef: But the profiler and tracer (not the statistical profiler) use an "encapsulate" mechanism which adds stack frames to each invocation via the FDEFN, which means that a recursion situation can now start chewing through stack where before it may not have been able to.
2015-03-21T02:29:44Z burtons: say i want to make a local variable have a dynamic binding, can i say (declare (special *var*)) after it's decleration to do that?
2015-03-21T02:30:41Z nyef: Ah, methods? Yeah, that'll break the self-call detection.
2015-03-21T02:30:45Z Bicyclidine: pillton: my-func could potentially have a setf expansion that doesn't use the values, or uses them in some non-evaluation way, or whatever
2015-03-21T02:31:41Z pillton: That is fine. But why does the introduction of the binding occur before the body of the setf expander has a chance to decide what to do?
2015-03-21T02:31:55Z emaczen: nyef: why do methods break the tail-call optimization?
2015-03-21T02:32:21Z Bicyclidine: pillton: it doesn't, the expander controls what's bound as temporaries etc
2015-03-21T02:32:37Z nyef: It doesn't break tail-call optimization, it breaks self-call recognition, which allows skipping the indirection through the fdefn, the arg-parsing code, and whatnot.
2015-03-21T02:33:14Z Bicyclidine: pillton: you could, i think, have a setf expansion that binds nothing if everything was constant, so you'd just have (let* () (multiple-value-bind () ...)). though i still don't see the point.
2015-03-21T02:33:34Z nyef: With a recognized self-call, the encapsulation wrapper won't trigger again.
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2015-03-21T02:34:06Z Bicyclidine: no, wait, the setf expansion doesn't have the value form, so it does have to do something for the m-v-b
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2015-03-21T02:34:37Z emaczen: nyef: what is the encapsulation wrapper?
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2015-03-21T02:36:03Z nyef: When you use TRACE or SB-PROFILE:PROFILE, SBCL swaps out the definition for the function being traced or profiled with another one which stores profiling data or writing trace output, calls the original, stores more profiling data or writes more trace output, and returns.
2015-03-21T02:36:20Z nyef: When you disable tracing or the profiler, it swaps them back for the original definition.
2015-03-21T02:36:35Z pillton: Bicyclidine: On SBCL and CCL it does. http://paste.lisp.org/display/146407#1
2015-03-21T02:37:15Z Bicyclidine: it does what?
2015-03-21T02:38:17Z Bicyclidine: also i was thinking of the setf expansions, i don't remember how defsetf works, really.
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2015-03-21T02:38:42Z pillton: Bicyclidine: The implementation introduces temporaries prior to calling the setf expander.
2015-03-21T02:39:25Z Bicyclidine: i didn't mean defsetf's macros, i meant actual setf expansions. with define-setf-expansion. those expanders return, as two of their values, lists of variables to bind, so you could return nothing.
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2015-03-21T02:40:04Z emaczen: nyef: ahh so I need it to recognize recursive functions?
2015-03-21T02:40:19Z Bicyclidine: but i still don't see the point. relying on any particular expansion for a macro you didn't write isn't going to end well.
2015-03-21T02:40:34Z emaczen: Or in this case my recursive method
2015-03-21T02:40:35Z emaczen: ?
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2015-03-21T02:41:25Z burtons: is there an easy way to take a symbol and turn it into a keyword?
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2015-03-21T02:42:01Z Bicyclidine: (intern (symbol-name symbol) "KEYWORD")
2015-03-21T02:42:09Z burtons: thanks
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2015-03-21T02:42:24Z nyef: emaczen: What you have is a tail-recursive method, which is fine, that is suddenly alternating with an extra (non-tail-calling) function introduced by the TRACE or PROFILE facility.
2015-03-21T02:42:26Z Bicyclidine: actually, use find-symbol, not intern... i guess it doesn't matter though.
2015-03-21T02:42:53Z nyef: emaczen: Which kicks the overall behavior over from effectively no stack usage to a whole lot of stack usage.
2015-03-21T02:42:55Z Bicyclidine: actually it does. intern. bam
2015-03-21T02:43:03Z Bicyclidine: i guess sbcl already has :foo. should have expected that
2015-03-21T02:43:10Z emaczen: nyef: How do I stop it from using so much of the stack?
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2015-03-21T02:43:47Z nyef: emaczen: I'd recommend either using test cases which are small enough to not blow the stack, or using the statistical profiler (which doesn't use the encapsulation mechanism, and thus shouldn't blow the stack).
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2015-03-21T02:45:43Z pillton: Bicyclidine: Even if I use defsetf or define-setf-expander I can't stop this from happening. That is my point. The avenues for extension are useless.
2015-03-21T02:47:04Z nyef: pillton: What's the problem with the extra bindings?
2015-03-21T02:47:36Z Bicyclidine: with define setf expander you can reduce it to not actually binding anything, i meant
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2015-03-21T02:48:47Z pillton: define-setf-expander doesn't give you access to the value form.
2015-03-21T02:49:46Z emaczen: nyef: Thanks, I finally got some sort of table output that contains my functions and has some reasonable numbers
2015-03-21T02:50:01Z nyef: emaczen: Yay, progress!
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2015-03-21T03:38:43Z `eeks: Hi there, I've been trying to call lambda stored in association lists all evening with SBCL, and I can't seem to find the right approach. Any one would have a good pointer on how to do that handy ?
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2015-03-21T03:39:08Z Bicyclidine: (funcall (cdr (assoc ...)) ...)?
2015-03-21T03:39:11Z nyef: (funcall (cdr (assoc ...)) ...)
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2015-03-21T03:39:36Z nyef: Bicyclidine wins.
2015-03-21T03:39:38Z `eeks: Nope, that fails with :
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2015-03-21T03:39:46Z `eeks: The value (LAMBDA (X) (+ X 1)) is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL)
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2015-03-21T03:40:03Z Bicyclidine: that's a list, not a function.
2015-03-21T03:40:04Z nyef: Ah, that's not a lambda, that's the source for a lambda...
2015-03-21T03:40:20Z nyef: So, (funcall (compile nil (cdr (assoc ...))) ...) ?
2015-03-21T03:40:23Z Bicyclidine: where'd you get it? are you doing '((1 . (lambda ...)) (2 . (lambda ...))) somewhere? cos that'll just get you a quoted tree.
2015-03-21T03:40:36Z `eeks: yes, that's what I am doing.
2015-03-21T03:40:41Z `eeks: Any way to do that better ?
2015-03-21T03:41:19Z Bicyclidine: (list (cons 1 (lambda ...)) (cons 2 (lambda ...))) so that it's actually evaluated.
2015-03-21T03:41:34Z Bicyclidine: or with backquote `((1 . ,(lambda ...)) (2 . ,(lambda ...)))
2015-03-21T03:41:57Z `eeks: I misread, I actually used a backquote.
2015-03-21T03:42:09Z Bicyclidine: did you actually use the commas?
2015-03-21T03:42:19Z `eeks: oh, no. let me try that.
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2015-03-21T03:42:56Z pjb: -
2015-03-21T03:43:45Z `eeks: Gosh, awesome. That works. What is the rationale of the comma in that context ?
2015-03-21T03:44:03Z Bicyclidine: it lets the form be evaluated instead of leaving it quoted.
2015-03-21T03:44:18Z Bicyclidine: it's like the same as '(lambda ...) versus (lambda ...). the former's a list
2015-03-21T03:44:43Z `eeks: Great. Thanks a lot for the tip.
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2015-03-21T04:17:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-03-21T04:17:49Z burtons: morning beach
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2015-03-21T04:19:38Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-03-21T04:26:10Z pillton: Hi beach.
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2015-03-21T04:28:13Z drmeister: Hey
2015-03-21T04:31:17Z drmeister: Hey beach - I made some more progress and then got stuck.
2015-03-21T04:31:26Z drmeister: I sent you an email about it.
2015-03-21T04:31:41Z beach: I saw it.  I'll deal with it when I wake up a bit more.
2015-03-21T04:31:53Z drmeister: No problem.  I'm going to sleep soon.
2015-03-21T04:31:59Z drmeister: Take your time.
2015-03-21T04:34:01Z drmeister: I solved the (setf foo) problem by creating a setf-fdefinition-ast and setf-fdefinition-instruction nodes
2015-03-21T04:34:17Z beach: OK.
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2015-03-21T04:41:01Z theos: mornin
2015-03-21T04:42:05Z beach: Hello theos.
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2015-03-21T05:01:29Z beach: drmeister: Are you still around?
2015-03-21T05:01:37Z drmeister: Yes
2015-03-21T05:01:47Z beach: drmeister: In the code you sent me, there is #'SLOT-DEFINITION-NAME
2015-03-21T05:02:07Z beach: What is the definition of that thing?
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2015-03-21T05:03:08Z drmeister: Yes, it is a little weird - it's an accessor.
2015-03-21T05:03:11Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/gxfDmwbI
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2015-03-21T05:04:06Z beach: It appears that when Cleavir asks for the FUNCTION-INFO of it, Clasp returns a LOCAL-MACRO-INFO.
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2015-03-21T05:04:21Z drmeister: What should it return?
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2015-03-21T05:04:47Z beach: If it's an accessor, it is a function, not a macro.
2015-03-21T05:05:04Z beach: I would think GLOBAL-FUNCTION-INFO.
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2015-03-21T05:06:52Z beach: I suppose I should signal a more specific error rather than just NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD.
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2015-03-21T05:07:06Z drmeister: Here is my FUNCTION-INFO - I don't return LOCAL-MACRO-INFO - maybe I'm returning NIL and Cleavir is assuming it's a LOCAL-MACRO-INFO?
2015-03-21T05:07:07Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146411
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2015-03-21T05:08:00Z beach: Well, if you look at the error message you sent me...
2015-03-21T05:09:07Z beach: ... it appears that it has a LOCAL-MACRO-INFO.  Maybe I am misunderstanding.
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2015-03-21T05:10:58Z beach: CONVERT-SPECIAL sees #'SLOT-DEFINITION-NAME.
2015-03-21T05:11:43Z beach: and it calls CONVERT-NAMED-FUNCTION.
2015-03-21T05:12:07Z beach: CONVERT-NAMED-FUNCTION asks for the FUNCTION-INFO and calls CONVERT-FUNCTION with the resulting info.
2015-03-21T05:12:52Z beach: CONVERT-FUNCTION signals an error because there is no applicable method when the first argument is a LOCAL-MACRO-INFO.
2015-03-21T05:13:10Z drmeister: I'm tracing FUNCTION-INFO
2015-03-21T05:14:44Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/8lIE4QTs
2015-03-21T05:16:14Z beach: Somehow, there must be a local macro with that name introduced.
2015-03-21T05:16:27Z drmeister: I don't understand where the LOCAL-MACRO-INFO is coming from - my cleavir-environment:function-info doesn't return LOCAL-MACRO-INFO for any inputs.  Is it the Cleavir version of FUNCTION-INFO that is returning this?
2015-03-21T05:16:38Z beach: What does WITH-EARLY-ACCESSORS expand to?
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2015-03-21T05:17:18Z beach: Yes, it means that someone did a (MACROLET ((SLOT-DEFINITION-NAME (...))))
2015-03-21T05:17:30Z drmeister: Oh - yes - that must be it.
2015-03-21T05:17:33Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/v6lb1Yep
2015-03-21T05:18:34Z beach: Unless I am not awake yet, or I have misread the Common Lisp HyperSpec, #'<mumble> is not supposed to work when <mumble> is a local macro, right?
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2015-03-21T05:20:01Z drmeister: You mean here?  (find slot-name (class-slots class) :key #'slot-definition-name)
2015-03-21T05:20:14Z beach: Yes.
2015-03-21T05:21:21Z drmeister: Yeah - if slot-definition-name is a macro - that can't work.  What the heck?
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2015-03-21T05:24:01Z drmeister: This is a tricky bootstrapping issue.
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2015-03-21T05:25:17Z drmeister: So the with-accessors is setting SLOT-DEFINITION-NAME up as a macro and that's what Cleavir (apparently correctly) believes it is.  But a macro can't work in #'SLOT-DEFINITION-NAME.
2015-03-21T05:25:49Z beach: That's my impression in this not-yet-awake state, yes.
2015-03-21T05:26:00Z drmeister: Maybe given the context it's supposed to treat it like a function and this code doesn't get activated until after CLOS has booted?
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2015-03-21T05:27:17Z beach: I am afraid I don't know.
2015-03-21T05:27:28Z drmeister: I remember wrestling with things like this (maybe even this function) the first time I tried to get this working.
2015-03-21T05:28:49Z hrr4: hi all, working on my own small Lisp as a personal project. Curious what (conceptually) environments are and how they're useful. Do they mainly just store variables at different contexts?
2015-03-21T05:29:33Z beach: hrr4: They map names to things, like names of classes to classes, names of functions to functions, names of variables to variables, etc.
2015-03-21T05:29:39Z Bicyclidine: they are contexts, really.
2015-03-21T05:29:41Z drmeister: hrr4: Yes, my understanding is that they store information about variables in different contexts.
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2015-03-21T05:30:06Z drmeister: Listen to those guys.
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2015-03-21T05:30:19Z Bicyclidine: everybody loves me
2015-03-21T05:30:38Z hrr4: haha thank you
2015-03-21T05:30:40Z beach: hrr4: "Lisp in Small Pieces" is a good read for this stuff.
2015-03-21T05:30:51Z hrr4: beach: oh? I'll look that up
2015-03-21T05:31:25Z beach: hrr4: If you bring your copy to ELS, you can have it signed by both the author and the translator.
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2015-03-21T05:31:45Z hrr4: beach: ELS?
2015-03-21T05:32:07Z beach: European Lisp Symposium.
2015-03-21T05:32:16Z beach: London, april 20-21 (I think)
2015-03-21T05:33:17Z hrr4: beach: Oh that'd be awesome to go to. Unfortunately, that'd be a long flight (Seattle, WA).
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2015-03-21T05:35:20Z beach: Too bad.
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2015-03-21T05:40:41Z hrr4: beach: thank you for the book recommendation, this is just what i was looking for
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2015-03-21T05:41:06Z hrr4: beach: actually my end goal is to get a Lisp onto an FPGA board :)
2015-03-21T05:41:56Z Bicyclidine: i think the system in "Lambda: The Ultimate Opcode" would be reasonably easy to write in verilog or whatever
2015-03-21T05:42:52Z hrr4: Bicyclidine: That was the main source I used for my project proposal actually. Great resource.
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2015-03-21T05:43:54Z hrr4: Bicyclidine: one thing eluded me though, which was how they stored the actual data outside of the cons cells. maybe I just missed it.
2015-03-21T05:46:26Z Bicyclidine: been a while since i read it. maybe they just had everything in conses, though.
2015-03-21T05:47:39Z hrr4: Bicyclidine: that's what I assumed.... but I know they used a 3 bit type field with a 13 bit address. which meant the cons cell resided in memory, as well as the actual data it referred to..... I think.
2015-03-21T05:49:41Z Bicyclidine: really, you'd probably be better off just designing a "general" architecture that works nicely for lisp similar to how usual machines usually work okay with C.
2015-03-21T05:49:47Z Bicyclidine: dunno what features that would be. fast tag checks. stuff.
2015-03-21T05:50:27Z Bicyclidine: either that or work out how to do the tree instruction thing with caching, since that's what matters 4 speed
2015-03-21T05:51:35Z hrr4: Bicyclidine: hmmmmmmm
2015-03-21T05:52:00Z drmeister: beach: I looked up what my compiler does in this context - it classifies the symbol argument of FUNCTION as either a lexical-function or a global-function.   If it doesn't find it in the lexical-environment it assumed it was a global function.
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2015-03-21T05:52:30Z Bicyclidine: well that's wrong then.
2015-03-21T05:52:44Z drmeister: Wrong - but useful.
2015-03-21T05:53:08Z Bicyclidine: useful? it just gives you wrong answers occasionally.
2015-03-21T05:54:32Z drmeister: It's an error to have a (FUNCTION FOO) where  FOO is a local macro - please correct me if I'm wrong.
2015-03-21T05:55:21Z Bicyclidine: yeah, an error, not a silent mistake that keeps "working"
2015-03-21T05:56:13Z drmeister: I don't know what ECL does in this context  - what is the right way to deal with this?
2015-03-21T05:56:26Z Bicyclidine: signal an error?
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2015-03-21T05:56:59Z Bicyclidine: you can even do it at compile time.
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2015-03-21T05:58:22Z drmeister: I need to compile this somehow - this is ECL code for CLOS.
2015-03-21T05:59:22Z drmeister: Unless I'm misreading the code - they have non-conformant code during the bootstrapping period.
2015-03-21T06:00:00Z drmeister: I may be misreading this.
2015-03-21T06:01:18Z drmeister: It's got this macro that is used during bootstrapping:
2015-03-21T06:01:19Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146412
2015-03-21T06:02:11Z drmeister: And they compile this code that uses that macro.
2015-03-21T06:02:12Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146413
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2015-03-21T06:03:06Z drmeister: And +slot-definition-slots+  contains (name :initarg :name :initform nil :accessor slot-definition-name)
2015-03-21T06:03:33Z drmeister: So when compiling the SLOT-VALUE function SLOT-DEFINITION-NAME is a local macrolet macro.
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2015-03-21T06:03:50Z drmeister: and #'SLOT-DEFINITION-NAME is an error.
2015-03-21T06:04:15Z Bicyclidine: seems like a small mistake on ecl's part, then.
2015-03-21T06:05:13Z Bicyclidine: i'm not sure i even see what macros it's using there, class-slots? class-location-table?
2015-03-21T06:05:22Z drmeister: That's my current thinking - that the rules are bent and #'SLOT-DEFINITION is compiled as if SLOT-DEFINITION is a global function name.
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2015-03-21T06:05:58Z Bicyclidine: eh, screw that. i don't think you actually need +slot-definition-slots+ there.
2015-03-21T06:06:03Z Bicyclidine: just take it out and see if it works.
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2015-03-21T06:08:19Z drmeister: How is SLOT-VALUE supposed to work?   Does it iterate over the slot-names looking for a match to _slot-name_ of (slot-value obj _slot-name_)
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2015-03-21T06:08:58Z Bicyclidine: in general or in this implementation?
2015-03-21T06:09:10Z Bicyclidine: in this implementation it does a hash lookup on a table inside the class instance.
2015-03-21T06:09:53Z Bicyclidine: (let ((location (gethash slot-name (class-location-table (class-of instance)) nil))) ...) and then standard-instance-access, looks like.
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2015-03-21T06:10:51Z drmeister: General - I thought it was supposed to be resolved at compile-time but I guess it can't know _slot-name_ until runtime
2015-03-21T06:10:55Z beach: drmeister: I am back.  But I have no solution to propose to you.
2015-03-21T06:11:16Z Bicyclidine: yeah, it's all runtime cos of how flexible clos is.
2015-03-21T06:11:57Z beach: drmeister: Though I suppose you can put a method on convert-function specialized to local macro and just treat it as a global function instead.
2015-03-21T06:11:58Z Bicyclidine: you can think of one implementation strategy as the class having an array of slot names, and the instance having an array of slot values. then slot-value consists of looking up the position of the slot name in the class's array, and using that position to access the instance's value array.
2015-03-21T06:12:00Z beach: dr
2015-03-21T06:12:03Z drmeister: But accessors are compile-time.
2015-03-21T06:12:08Z Bicyclidine: what?
2015-03-21T06:12:25Z beach: drmeister: Cleavir allows you to introduce incorrect semantics as well. :)
2015-03-21T06:12:27Z Bicyclidine: what does that mean? they're generic functions.
2015-03-21T06:13:03Z drmeister: Don't the accessors know the offset of the slot?
2015-03-21T06:13:15Z Bicyclidine: not at compile time.
2015-03-21T06:13:23Z Bicyclidine: you can redefine the class and stuff.
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2015-03-21T06:13:44Z drmeister: So every slot access is a hash-table lookup for the index based on the name of the slot?   I'm surprised.
2015-03-21T06:14:04Z beach: drmeister: It doesn't have to be done that way.
2015-03-21T06:14:17Z Bicyclidine: besides, with (defun foo ...uses some accessor...) has to work even if i define a new method on the accessor later, in some other file, or at the repl or whatever.
2015-03-21T06:14:43Z Bicyclidine: you can use standard-instance-access to use a fixed location instead.
2015-03-21T06:14:52Z beach: drmeister: The method can be generated with a fixed offset, but then it has to be recompiled when the class changes.
2015-03-21T06:14:54Z drmeister: Right - but I assumed the accessors would be recompiled if the class changed.
2015-03-21T06:15:08Z Bicyclidine: well, you could do it that way
2015-03-21T06:15:24Z drmeister: beach: Yeah that's what I assumed all Common Lisps did - for speed.
2015-03-21T06:15:27Z beach: SICL does it.  I assume SBCL as well.
2015-03-21T06:15:28Z Bicyclidine: the thing i said with the arrays is just one way to do it, and a pretty simple one, i think it's what closette does
2015-03-21T06:15:38Z Bicyclidine: i do not think sbcl does, exactly
2015-03-21T06:15:42Z Bicyclidine: it has a lot of caching though
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2015-03-21T06:15:53Z Bicyclidine: pcl is a really scary part of sbcl, though.
2015-03-21T06:16:02Z beach: Indeed.
2015-03-21T06:16:14Z Bicyclidine: here, let me pull up the internals manual
2015-03-21T06:16:30Z drmeister: pcl?
2015-03-21T06:16:40Z drmeister: That sounds familiar - I forget what it means.
2015-03-21T06:16:42Z beach: Portable Common Loops.
2015-03-21T06:16:43Z Bicyclidine: Portable Common Loops, the CLOS subsystem of SBCL
2015-03-21T06:16:49Z Bicyclidine: (it's not portable any more)
2015-03-21T06:17:08Z beach: UCL.
2015-03-21T06:17:25Z Bicyclidine: http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/Basic-Implementation.html#Basic-Implementation it does check for a redo.
2015-03-21T06:17:27Z drmeister: beach: I'll probably do as you suggest.  "put a method on convert-function specialized to local macro and just treat it as a global function instead."
2015-03-21T06:17:42Z Bicyclidine: despite the name of that file, "Basic Implementation" is really about slot value.
2015-03-21T06:18:01Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: have you tried just removing +slot-definition-slots+ from the macro invocation.
2015-03-21T06:19:16Z beach: Bicyclidine: That code is for SLOT-VALUE not for accessors.
2015-03-21T06:19:30Z beach: An accessor doesn't have to call SLOT-VALUE.
2015-03-21T06:20:02Z Bicyclidine: oh. i guess. it has to do the same things, though.
2015-03-21T06:20:04Z beach: SLOT-VALUE is harder in the general case because the name of the slot might not be a constant.  And then the slot has to be looked up in the class.
2015-03-21T06:20:20Z beach: Accessors don't have that problem.
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2015-03-21T06:21:21Z Bicyclidine: well, the next section is about what the ompiler can do when the slot name is constant. it's complex and full of notes like "hm, i think this is buggy"
2015-03-21T06:21:25Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: Trying that now
2015-03-21T06:22:42Z drmeister: it compiles though
2015-03-21T06:22:45Z beach: Bicyclidine: One strategy (I think I read this somewhere) would be to basically introduce an accessor when the slot name is a constant.
2015-03-21T06:23:00Z Bicyclidine: huh, do accessors have to go through slot-value-using-class
2015-03-21T06:23:16Z beach: No.
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2015-03-21T06:23:32Z beach: They can go directly to the instance if it knows the offset.
2015-03-21T06:23:59Z Bicyclidine: internals notes say the fast path for accessors on sbcl are invalidated if there are nonstandard methods on s-v-u-c. so i guess sbcl could be missing that opportunity.
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2015-03-21T06:25:25Z beach: Bicyclidine: Perhaps the offset cannot be known if there are nonstandard methods like that.
2015-03-21T06:25:32Z beach: I forget the details.
2015-03-21T06:25:54Z Bicyclidine: how would defining a method... frickin system.
2015-03-21T06:26:28Z beach: I do know that there is no way that it can be allowed for a simple accessor to call slot-value or slot-value-using-class.  It would be way too slow.  And I know for a fact that SBCL is not calling those functions in the most common case.
2015-03-21T06:27:05Z Bicyclidine: yeah it's under http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/Accessor-Discriminating-Functions.html#Accessor-Discriminating-Functions
2015-03-21T06:27:46Z Bicyclidine: it puts in a discriminating function for the accessor gf that closes over one or two class layouts and accesses them directly bla bla bla.
2015-03-21T06:28:16Z Bicyclidine: huh, there's a typo in clhs defclass's argument descriptions
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2015-03-21T06:28:56Z Bicyclidine: i always thought read/write/accessors had to go through slot-value. hrm.
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2015-03-21T06:29:29Z beach: What's the typo?
2015-03-21T06:29:48Z Bicyclidine: has "reader-function-name" twice
2015-03-21T06:30:03Z beach: What should the second be? writer?
2015-03-21T06:30:07Z Bicyclidine: accessor
2015-03-21T06:30:16Z Bicyclidine: someone already mentioned it on cliki http://cliki.net/Issue%20DEFCLASS-READER-FUNCTION-NAME
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2015-03-21T06:31:33Z beach: Note to self: fix typo in DEFCLASS argument descriptions in Common Lisp version 2.
2015-03-21T06:32:07Z Bicyclidine: oh, you know about the page, right?
2015-03-21T06:32:25Z beach: The Cliki page?  No.
2015-03-21T06:32:33Z Bicyclidine: this one: http://cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications
2015-03-21T06:33:14Z beach: I didn't know that.  Thanks.
2015-03-21T06:33:16Z beach: Who wrote it?
2015-03-21T06:33:53Z Bicyclidine: uh, a lot of people, probably. wiki and all.
2015-03-21T06:34:08Z drmeister: I wonder what the point of all those with-early-accessors was in those functions.
2015-03-21T06:34:10Z beach: It's a great source of information for Common Lisp version 2.
2015-03-21T06:35:00Z Bicyclidine: you might look at the less conservative pages linked on top too.
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2015-03-21T06:35:28Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: so that they could write (class-location-table class) instead of (si::instance-ref class 'location-table)
2015-03-21T06:35:39Z beach: Bicyclidine: Yeah.  Thanks.
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2015-03-21T06:37:43Z Bicyclidine: beach: as long as you're on the subject, you should consider setting something up for your new version like that wiki page and the committee, but indefinite, just cos there are going to be bugs in it if no other reason.
2015-03-21T06:38:30Z beach: Hmm.
2015-03-21T06:39:03Z Bicyclidine: having these things sit around in an external wiki and prog2 being obviously wrong for probably decades now is silly.
2015-03-21T06:39:40Z Bicyclidine: i know there are considerations about versioning and "living standards" being silly and etc., but still.
2015-03-21T06:39:57Z beach: Bicyclidine: I am not sure what your exact suggestion is.
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2015-03-21T06:40:38Z Bicyclidine: neither am i, really. i just know silly when i see it
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2015-03-21T06:41:00Z beach: I was thinking something like the annotatable CLIM spec.
2015-03-21T06:41:06Z beach: Have you seen it?
2015-03-21T06:41:20Z Bicyclidine: only a bit. i've only recently even considered gui programming, heh.
2015-03-21T06:41:36Z Bicyclidine: i suppose i should try using clim for my oscilloscope gizmo, actually...
2015-03-21T06:41:42Z beach: That aspect is unimportant for the current discussion.
2015-03-21T06:41:44Z Bicyclidine: but yeah, even just public annotations might be enough.
2015-03-21T06:41:56Z beach: The annotation part is great!
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2015-03-21T06:42:35Z beach: I can imagine the Common Lisp HyperSpec in the form of an annotatable spec similar to the CLIM spec.
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2015-03-21T06:44:25Z Bicyclidine: one thing is that i'm enough of a bibliophile that i like looking through the committee discussions; makes the spec almost its own context sometimes. useful.
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2015-03-21T06:45:47Z Bicyclidine: just think, years from now somebody could cite an irc argument between you and whoever about what progv does when it doesn't have enough values
2015-03-21T06:46:17Z beach: Sure.
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2015-03-21T06:54:11Z pjb: Bicyclidine: the question is whether years from now, we can write an AI that would be able to extract any intelligent conclusion from irc logs.
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2015-03-21T07:33:27Z beach: drmeister: I added methods on CONVERT-FUNCTION specialized to GLOBAL-MACRO-INFO and LOCAL-MACRO-INFO that signal appropriate conditions.  I also added condition reporters for those conditions.
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2015-03-21T08:29:06Z Shinmera: Xach: I'm unfortunately just as clueless about that Plump error as you are. I also can't reproduce it on my system, so it's hard to guess.
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2015-03-21T08:52:37Z beach: clhs with-slots
2015-03-21T08:52:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_slts.htm
2015-03-21T08:52:49Z beach: Can someone check the bottom of that page for me please?
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2015-03-21T08:53:06Z beach: The examples of the "Qi"s have a parameter list in them.
2015-03-21T08:54:04Z beach: That seems to be incorrect syntax for SYMBOL-MACROLET.  No?
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2015-03-21T08:55:33Z beach:  ... as in "where Qi is (slot-entryi () (slot-value in 'slot-entryi))"
2015-03-21T08:55:33Z beach:  
2015-03-21T08:55:51Z beach: What is the "()" doing there?
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2015-03-21T09:00:29Z Shinmera: I'm guessing a mistake, since symbol-macrolet doesn't take a lambda-list.
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2015-03-21T09:01:21Z Quadrescence: Shinmera, you seem like the kind of person to play league of legends, eh?
2015-03-21T09:01:33Z Shinmera: Quadrescence: What?
2015-03-21T09:01:38Z Quadrescence: err, nvm
2015-03-21T09:04:09Z beach: Note to self: Fix the description of the expansions of WITH-SLOTS in Common Lisp version 2.
2015-03-21T09:04:25Z Shinmera: Effectively the way they wrote it there is not conforming and won't even work at all
2015-03-21T09:05:06Z Shinmera: Since symbol-macrolet takes forms like (symbol expansion-form)
2015-03-21T09:06:20Z Shinmera: Though I might be missing something since I can't decipher what the meaning of the parts after the Qi 'definition' even try to say.
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2015-03-21T09:06:26Z Shinmera: *even is.
2015-03-21T09:06:30Z Shinmera: Ah, I'm not quite awake yet.
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2015-03-21T09:12:26Z beach: It would be better written like this: If slot-entryi is a symbol, then Qi is (slot-entryi (slot-value in 'slot-entryi)).  If slot-entryi is of the form ...
2015-03-21T09:13:40Z Shinmera: Yeah.
2015-03-21T09:16:28Z ehu: hmm. I thought the git migration to gitlab was big.
2015-03-21T09:16:35Z ehu: I'm looking at the next step: Darcs.
2015-03-21T09:16:47Z ehu: 600+ repositories on c-l.net...
2015-03-21T09:16:51Z ehu: that's a lot bigger!
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2015-03-21T09:25:17Z beach: ehu: Maybe you can encourage them to move to GIT first.
2015-03-21T09:26:02Z ehu: beach: that's an idea. I thought that if I did all the migrations at once, it costs me a lot of time, but probably less on the whole.
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2015-03-21T09:26:20Z ehu: but maybe I should start turning the tables indeed.
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2015-03-21T11:03:12Z ehu: I'll start with a smaller next step: eliminate CVS.
2015-03-21T11:03:22Z ehu: only 134 projects to migrate there.
2015-03-21T11:03:35Z pjb: It'd be time.
2015-03-21T11:03:53Z ehu: :-)
2015-03-21T11:03:53Z beach: Yeah, good plan.
2015-03-21T11:04:58Z ehu: I'm wondering how many of these 134 projects actuall still use CVS in the sense that maybe they have moved on to git, but on github.
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2015-03-21T11:05:57Z ehu: or maybe they have projects in gitlab now, but the old cvs repos was never cleared out...
2015-03-21T11:05:59Z ehu: hmm.
2015-03-21T11:06:20Z ehu: this requires a bit of figuring out.
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2015-03-21T11:17:03Z ehu: figured it out: out of 134 projects, 14 already have a repository in GitLab.
2015-03-21T11:17:11Z ehu: I'll contact those.
2015-03-21T11:17:28Z ehu: the others need to choose between Subversion(+Trac) and Git(Lab)
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2015-03-21T11:31:37Z Shinmera: Xach: Do you have the commit ID handy from when the Plump build last succeeded? That would at least help me get a footing on when the failure might've been introduced.
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2015-03-21T11:36:47Z mood: Shinmera: The error was introduced in commit e88178c... the second to last one. I get the error there, but not at the commit before that
2015-03-21T11:37:41Z Shinmera: Ok. Strange that I can't reproduce it on my end.
2015-03-21T11:37:54Z mood: Shinmera: SBCL 1.2.8?
2015-03-21T11:37:56Z Shinmera: I'm on 1.2.9
2015-03-21T11:38:56Z ehu: btw, I'm aware of the problems with cliki. I've contacted Vladimir about it.
2015-03-21T11:38:58Z mood: Hmm, perhaps it's caused by a bug in SBCL in 1.2.8? I don't know. I played around with the error a bit yesterday and couldn't really find any reason for it.
2015-03-21T11:40:37Z Shinmera: The only significant change in the UNREAD function that I assume is the failure point from the stack trace is that instead of just (speed 3) (safety 0) it now also has (space 0) (debug 0) and (compilation-speed 0). I guess I can remove those and see if that does anything.
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2015-03-21T11:41:17Z Shinmera: Though, well, I can't see if it does anything since I can't reproduce it, but that would be the first thing I'd try.
2015-03-21T11:41:41Z mood: Shinmera: Oh yes, UNREAD isn't the real source of the problem. I removed all DECLAIM's from lexer.lisp and the error persisted.
2015-03-21T11:41:52Z mood: The problem is in READ-TAG, somehow
2015-03-21T11:41:54Z Shinmera: Oh. hhhuh.
2015-03-21T11:42:14Z Shinmera: But read-tag didn't change in that commit
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2015-03-21T11:43:38Z Shinmera: Well, I suppose it changed implicitly with the optimisations to the matchers.
2015-03-21T11:43:54Z mood: After removing the declaration from UNREAD the error started mentioning another function in lexer.lisp, then the next, etc. After all declarations were gone it mentioned the (FUNCALL (THE FUNCTION TEST)...) in READ-TAG
2015-03-21T11:44:23Z mood: Removing the THE FUNCTION part didn't get rid of the error either
2015-03-21T11:44:33Z Shinmera: Most mysterious.
2015-03-21T11:45:30Z Shinmera: Well, the optimisations didn't really do much for me, so I guess I can just revert to 58697fb for now.
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2015-03-21T11:53:40Z Shinmera: mood: Would you be so kind to test it as it is now? I just reverted e88178c, but I can't tell if that fixes things.
2015-03-21T11:54:10Z mood: Shinmera: Yes, fixed
2015-03-21T11:54:21Z Shinmera: Ok, good. I'll leave it at that for now.
2015-03-21T11:54:43Z Shinmera: I still have to dive into the actual parser algorithm some day and optimise that. Adding declarations all over didn't save enough to be worth the trouble.
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2015-03-21T15:38:40Z faheem_: How about "Cleave it with Cleavir"?
2015-03-21T15:39:45Z drmeister: Hello
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2015-03-21T15:40:31Z faheem_: Hey Chris. How's it going?
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2015-03-21T15:48:11Z drmeister: I'm working on compiling CLOS with Cleavir/Clasp - there are tricky bootstrapping issues and features of the ECL code that are causing Cleavir to stumble.
2015-03-21T15:48:26Z drmeister: I'm currently compiling this function.    It has a DEFCONSTANT right in the middle of it.
2015-03-21T15:49:07Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146414
2015-03-21T15:49:31Z drmeister: beach: Are you online by any chance?
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2015-03-21T15:50:31Z drmeister: Cleavir is trying to EVAL the DEFCONSTANT in the current environment.   It recursively unwinds the environment with successive calls to EVAL and hits the global environment where it doesn't know that CLASS is a lexical variable.
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2015-03-21T15:50:59Z drmeister: I can see it unwind the environment right past the CLASS lexical variable definition.
2015-03-21T15:51:34Z faheem_: drmeister: is CLOS the last major bit?
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2015-03-21T15:53:02Z drmeister: Here is the SLDB backtrace.
2015-03-21T15:53:03Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146415
2015-03-21T15:53:19Z drmeister: faheem_: Yes - my experience has been once I get through CLOS it should be clear sailing.
2015-03-21T15:53:43Z drmeister: This debugging experience is made so much better by SLIME
2015-03-21T15:53:58Z faheem_: drmeister: ok, that's good. must have been quite a journey,  but it sounds like you are nearly there.
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2015-03-21T15:54:53Z drmeister: Notice frame 18 - it's in the global environment trying valiantly to eval:  (CORE:*MAKE-CONSTANT 'CLOS::+THE-STANDARD-CLASS+ CLASS)
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2015-03-21T15:55:16Z drmeister: But what's this?  The lexical variable CLASS doesn't exist in the global environment!
2015-03-21T15:55:40Z drmeister: We passed the CLASS lexical variable in frame 73!
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2015-03-21T15:57:50Z drmeister: Oh wait - beach has a very long comment on EVAL - I should probably read that.
2015-03-21T15:58:32Z drmeister: For those of you at home following along...
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2015-03-21T15:58:37Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/kMAwVk2i
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2015-03-21T16:03:12Z drmeister: Ho boy.
2015-03-21T16:03:30Z drmeister: beach:  ping!?!
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2015-03-21T16:05:10Z drmeister: DEFCONSTANT using a lexical variable within a DEFUN - pain in the backside.
2015-03-21T16:05:32Z beach: I am here.
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2015-03-21T16:07:28Z drmeister: Hurray!
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2015-03-21T16:08:33Z drmeister: I'm thinking I should take +the-standard-class+ and make it a DEFVAR outside of this DEFUN and change (defconstant +the-standard-class+ class)  to (setq +the-standard-class+ class)
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2015-03-21T16:09:10Z drmeister: That would work around this problem.   This code is the original ECL CLOS source code.
2015-03-21T16:09:27Z drmeister: Do you have any advice?
2015-03-21T16:09:29Z beach: It is unusual to have a DEFCONSTANT form inside a function.
2015-03-21T16:09:49Z drmeister: Agreed.
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2015-03-21T16:10:06Z beach: It is hard to give any advice because they obviously do some unusual things for reasons of bootstrapping.
2015-03-21T16:10:15Z drmeister: It works for my bootstrapping compiler because it treads constants like global variables that can't be changed.
2015-03-21T16:10:16Z beach: And I don't know the details of what it is that they are doing.
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2015-03-21T16:10:37Z slyrus: good morning
2015-03-21T16:10:44Z beach: Hi slyrus.
2015-03-21T16:11:16Z drmeister: They are setting this variable +the-standard-class+ to (find-class 'standard-class) as soon as standard-class gets created.
2015-03-21T16:11:23Z Bicyclid1ne: it's unusual, but it still ought to work...
2015-03-21T16:11:31Z drmeister: Hey slyrus
2015-03-21T16:11:32Z beach: drmeister: I agree that if the reason it worked before is that the compiler didn't treat it as a constant, you had better turn it into an ordinary variable for it to work now.
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2015-03-21T16:11:57Z slyrus: how are SICL, Cleaver, clasp, etc... coming along?
2015-03-21T16:12:04Z slyrus: cleavir, I mean
2015-03-21T16:12:15Z beach: slyrus: We are making steady progress.
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2015-03-21T16:13:11Z drmeister: froggey mentioned that clossete uses (defvar the-class-standard-class) for this purpose.  I see a lot of parallels between clossete and ECL CLOS - does anyone know if ECL CLOS was derived from it?
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2015-03-21T16:13:11Z beach: drmeister: I agree with Bicyclid1ne.  It ought to work.
2015-03-21T16:13:26Z drmeister: Do you mean the DEFCONSTANT within the DEFUN aught to work?
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2015-03-21T16:13:58Z beach: Sure, as long as the function is only called once.
2015-03-21T16:14:23Z drmeister: If so then I must do something different with my EVAL:
2015-03-21T16:14:26Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/gTmwCL9Q
2015-03-21T16:14:33Z slyrus: beach: good to hear that
2015-03-21T16:14:35Z beach: It depends a bit on your definition of DEFCONSTANT of course.
2015-03-21T16:14:37Z drmeister: I need to eval the form in the "env".
2015-03-21T16:15:14Z drmeister: The form this EVAL is trying to eval is (CORE:*MAKE-CONSTANT 'CLOS::+THE-STANDARD-CLASS+ CLASS)
2015-03-21T16:15:38Z drmeister: "env" is a Cleavir environment and it contains the lexical binding for CLASS - but I don't know what to do with it.
2015-03-21T16:15:52Z Bicyclid1ne: Uh, look up the value?
2015-03-21T16:16:07Z Bicyclid1ne: I'm confused. You have an interpreter, right? You must have an eval-in-env function.
2015-03-21T16:16:15Z beach: drmeister: Are you telling us that it is trying to do that at compile time?
2015-03-21T16:16:34Z drmeister: I know how to work with my lexical environments, not cleavir lexical environments - they are very different objects.
2015-03-21T16:16:56Z beach: drmeister: It shouldn't happen at compile time.
2015-03-21T16:16:59Z drmeister: beach: Now that you mention it - yes - that's part of the problem.
2015-03-21T16:17:16Z beach: Let me read the Common Lisp HyperSpec page for DEFCONSTANT.
2015-03-21T16:17:23Z drmeister: It's a DEFCONSTANT - it has the compile time side effect of declaring the constant doesn't it?
2015-03-21T16:17:35Z drmeister: Me too.
2015-03-21T16:17:42Z Bicyclid1ne: ...at top level, yeah, not in the middle of a function
2015-03-21T16:17:48Z beach: drmeister: Only of it is a top-level form.
2015-03-21T16:18:48Z beach: "defconstant normally appears as a top level form, but it is meaningful for it to appear as a non-top-level form. However, the compile-time side effects described below only take place when defconstant appears as a top level form."
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2015-03-21T16:18:49Z drmeister: Ok, it's definitely not top-level here.  Is this a Cleavir issue that it's treating it like a top-level form because it's wrapped in an EVAL-WHEN?
2015-03-21T16:19:18Z beach: It could be.
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2015-03-21T16:19:23Z drmeister: beach: Did you see the SLDB backtrace?
2015-03-21T16:19:33Z beach: Looking now...
2015-03-21T16:19:35Z drmeister: It lays everything out very nicely.
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2015-03-21T16:19:52Z drmeister: I am so, so glad I put the time into getting SLIME to work with Clasp.
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2015-03-21T16:20:45Z beach: It definitely should not call EVAL at compile time.
2015-03-21T16:21:51Z drmeister: Here's the relevant parts of the backtrace - I expanded out one more frame:
2015-03-21T16:21:54Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/e9kfJMMn
2015-03-21T16:22:50Z drmeister: Frame 173 is where it compiles the EVAL-WHEN - for some reason Cleavir decides to EVAL it
2015-03-21T16:22:51Z beach: It doesn't look right.
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2015-03-21T16:23:11Z Bicyclid1ne: so you have, like, (defun foo ... (defconstant ...)), right?
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2015-03-21T16:23:40Z Bicyclid1ne: if the eval-when is all the way in there cleavir should pretty much just ignore anything in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...)
2015-03-21T16:23:50Z beach: It definitely should.
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2015-03-21T16:24:44Z beach: drmeister: I'll investigate, but it shall have to wait until tomorrow morning UTC+1.
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2015-03-21T16:27:33Z drmeister: ok
2015-03-21T16:28:01Z beach: Now I need to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
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2015-03-21T16:30:37Z drmeister: That takes priority.
2015-03-21T16:31:17Z beach: Preliminary analysis confirms that if *compiler* is COMPILE-FILE then it evaluates even when the form is not top-level.
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2015-03-21T16:31:33Z faheem_: beach: you should take the stance that you "admit nothing".
2015-03-21T16:31:56Z beach: faheem_: Might not hold up, though.
2015-03-21T16:32:09Z beach: drmeister: I have a small test case, so it should be easy to track down.
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2015-03-21T16:32:24Z beach vanishes. 
2015-03-21T16:32:27Z drmeister: I agree
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2015-03-21T16:33:09Z drmeister: faheem_: We all have bugs - find 'em - fix 'em - move on.
2015-03-21T16:34:05Z faheem_: drmeister: i think you missed my joke.
2015-03-21T16:34:14Z faheem_: well, hardly a joke
2015-03-21T16:34:20Z drmeister: Oh - probably - sorry.
2015-03-21T16:34:36Z faheem_: so might have beach, actually
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2015-03-21T16:36:47Z drmeister: faheem_: We all make jokes that people miss - find 'em - fix 'em - move on.   :-)
2015-03-21T16:37:05Z faheem_: drmeister: :-)
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2015-03-21T16:38:32Z drmeister: Hmm, what to do now.
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2015-03-21T16:40:15Z eugeneia: Hi all
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2015-03-21T16:40:44Z eugeneia: is there a function in the standard that could help me to get a unique identifier across the OS?
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2015-03-21T16:41:15Z eugeneia: E.g. to get the UNIX pid would be one thing.
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2015-03-21T16:41:58Z eugeneia: or something like ccl's TEMP-PATHNAME
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2015-03-21T16:44:48Z faheem_: eugeneia: proposed use?
2015-03-21T16:45:14Z eugeneia: faheem_: establish a unique name for the running CL instance.
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2015-03-21T16:47:19Z faheem_: eugeneia: dumb question, but wouldn't the process id do?
2015-03-21T16:47:37Z eugeneia: faheem_: yeah sure, how do I get it in a portable way though?
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2015-03-21T16:49:39Z faheem_: eugeneia: hmm. doesn't the standard have a portable way to call out to the underlying system? and when you say portable, you want this to work for any OS?
2015-03-21T16:50:13Z Bicyclid1ne: no, it doesn't
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2015-03-21T16:50:46Z eugeneia: faheem_: :) no
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2015-03-21T16:51:02Z faheem_: Bicyclid1ne: there is no portable way to do the equivalent of `os.system(...)`?
2015-03-21T16:51:15Z eugeneia: faheem_: of course not
2015-03-21T16:51:39Z Bicyclid1ne: well, portable, yes, but it's not in the standard
2015-03-21T16:51:49Z eugeneia: faheem_: you have to use uiop or a similar wrapper
2015-03-21T16:52:26Z pjb: pids are not unique, given that they're recycled.
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2015-03-21T16:52:57Z eugeneia: pjb: uniqueness is only required for as long as the process runs in my case
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2015-03-21T17:06:11Z faheem_: eugeneia: excuse my ignorance. I don't know much about CL.
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2015-03-21T17:13:41Z hitecnologys: eugeneia: are you sure you need PID as unique value? I'd go for timestamps since they rarely repeat and are easy to get.
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2015-03-21T17:14:31Z pjb: but unless you're using nanosecond timestamps, nowadays, it won't be unique.
2015-03-21T17:15:05Z hitecnologys: It will be with 1 second precison.
2015-03-21T17:15:20Z pjb: Yes, you can as well take a constant then.
2015-03-21T17:15:35Z hitecnologys: Nobody told it need to be unique several times a second.
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2015-03-21T17:15:54Z pjb: 42 is unique once too.
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2015-03-21T17:16:12Z hitecnologys: You can't take a constant since it's always the same. Timestamps change each run if program ran more than several seconds.
2015-03-21T17:16:39Z pjb: p& p& -> fail.
2015-03-21T17:16:40Z nyef: ... Unless someone is playing sillybuggers with the system clock, that is. d-:
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2015-03-21T17:17:52Z hitecnologys: nyef: there are many more cases where clocks go backwards but they don't happen every day so there's no point considering them too if you're writing simple system that is allowed to crash sometimes.
2015-03-21T17:18:31Z hitecnologys: pjb: well, eugeneia didn't tell his thing should support that kind of things.
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2015-03-21T17:18:57Z pjb: Yes, that's why we should start with 42.  42 is quite a unique number.
2015-03-21T17:19:14Z hitecnologys: pjb: if we're going that path, there could be two processes with the same PID on the same machine.
2015-03-21T17:19:27Z hitecnologys: pjb: nothing is absolutely unique.
2015-03-21T17:19:45Z hitecnologys: pjb: hence we have to make certain assumptions.
2015-03-21T17:20:05Z nyef: There shouldn't be two processes with the same PID in the same domain and the same time.
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2015-03-21T17:20:46Z hitecnologys: One could run two copies of programs in two VMs and there's a change they get the same process ID. If you're working with hardware, you're screwed.
2015-03-21T17:21:06Z hitecnologys: s/change/chance/
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2015-03-21T17:21:41Z pjb: notably, if your using shared file systems (eg. nfs), you need wider unique numbers than pids.
2015-03-21T17:21:49Z pjb: s/your/you're/
2015-03-21T17:22:22Z hitecnologys: Right, that too.
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2015-03-21T17:22:51Z hitecnologys: You can probably just take UUIDv3. 116 bits of randomness is enough for everyone.
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2015-03-21T18:08:53Z mega1: Is there a recognized 'syntax' for errors signalled by some evaluated form similar to '=>' for the return value?
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2015-03-21T18:19:20Z pjb: mega1: not really.  The only "syntax" is the "Exceptional Situations:" section.
2015-03-21T18:20:08Z pjb: I'd write: (form) / prints: blah / signals: condition /  => result
2015-03-21T18:20:16Z pjb: actually I use --> not =>.
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2015-03-21T18:22:59Z mega1: Right. That's for the documentation.
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2015-03-21T18:23:08Z mega1: I was actually thinking about transcripts.
2015-03-21T18:24:48Z mega1: perhaps "error=>", "E=>" or "^=>"?
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2015-03-21T18:33:18Z pjb: not all conditions are errors.
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2015-03-21T18:35:04Z pjb: mega1: clall uses the following format: http://paste.lisp.org/+34Z4
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2015-03-21T18:56:56Z mega1: thanks
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2015-03-21T20:07:18Z burtons: clhs error
2015-03-21T20:07:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_error.htm
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2015-03-21T21:08:41Z eugeneia: All types except arrays and sequences are immutable right?
2015-03-21T21:09:00Z eugeneia: (looking at https://sellout.github.io/media/CL-type-hierarchy.png)
2015-03-21T21:09:15Z eugeneia: I wonder why isn't simple array a sequence?
2015-03-21T21:11:10Z eugeneia: its a "flavour"?
2015-03-21T21:11:20Z remi`bd: because a simple array isn’t a sequence
2015-03-21T21:11:41Z remi`bd: for instance:
2015-03-21T21:11:48Z remi`bd: * (type-of (make-array '(2 2)))
2015-03-21T21:11:58Z remi`bd: ⇒ (SIMPLE-ARRAY T (2 2))
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2015-03-21T21:12:36Z eugeneia: hmm ok
2015-03-21T21:13:34Z eugeneia: Can I somehow determine the size of a specific element-type?
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2015-03-21T21:14:44Z eugeneia: at least partially.
2015-03-21T21:17:05Z nyef: Each implementation has to know such things, so in principle it can be done, though not necessarily portably or conveniently.
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2015-03-21T21:20:38Z eugeneia: nyef: I think I could benefit from a partial solution, I really just wan't to estimate the size of sequences
2015-03-21T21:20:54Z eugeneia: (to decide wether its feasible to copy them)
2015-03-21T21:22:07Z eugeneia: I am experimenting with applying erlang concepts to generic CL... seeing if anything comes of it
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2015-03-21T21:27:09Z nyef: eugeneia: Each element of a linked list takes two "words". Each element of an unspecialized array takes one "word", plus the overhead for the array. Specialized arrays take space proportional to their specialized element type, most of which are obvious.
2015-03-21T21:28:01Z nyef: And that's just for the sequence storage itself, for non-specialized element types you also have the overhead of storing the actual data elements.
2015-03-21T21:28:43Z eugeneia: yeah makes sense, thanks for the summary
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2015-03-21T22:12:14Z drmeister: Is the compiler supposed to call MAKE-LOAD-FORM-SAVING-SLOTS directly - I don't think so. It looks like the compiler only ever calls MAKE-LOAD-FORM
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2015-03-21T22:19:11Z mood: Shinmera: After installing the Shirakumo dist, loading modules results in a bunch of "Component ... not found" errors. At least i-sqlite and r-simple-auth can't be found.
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2015-03-21T22:19:55Z Shinmera: mood: Curious. I know that error, but I didn't encounter it when I tested on an absolutely clean install just... yesterday or two days ago.
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2015-03-21T22:21:24Z mood: Shinmera: Perhaps something changed with the dist released yesterday?
2015-03-21T22:21:38Z Shinmera: No, that was to fix an issue related to that.
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2015-03-21T22:22:56Z Shinmera: mood: I'll have to try again tomorrow, it's late right now and I'm watching an Eastwood movie. I hope I can reproduce it, otherwise we'll have to do some remote debugging :/
2015-03-21T22:23:14Z Shinmera: mood: Can you tell me what your exact steps were?
2015-03-21T22:23:22Z Shinmera: a paste of the REPL transcript would be best
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2015-03-21T22:29:45Z drmeister: Hmm, I'm still missing something about MAKE-LOAD-FORM.   It can return two forms, a creation-form and an init-form.    The init-form isn't a lambda that takes one argument - it's something else.  How is the created object returned by the creation-form passed to the init-form?
2015-03-21T22:30:04Z drmeister: The example from the CLHS is:
2015-03-21T22:30:08Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/7FnoCxvX
2015-03-21T22:31:00Z drmeister: On line 9 the initialization form refers to "x" which is a value in the compile-time environment - not the load-time environment.
2015-03-21T22:31:20Z drmeister: I think I understand the creation-form but the initialization-form eludes me.
2015-03-21T22:31:28Z mood: Shinmera: Sure. With a fresh Quicklisp: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/9J
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2015-03-21T22:32:19Z mood: Shinmera: Enjoy your movie!
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2015-03-21T22:33:03Z Shinmera: mood: Well, it's not installing radiance-drivers as it should. No idea how that could happen, but again, I'll see about it tomorrow.
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2015-03-21T22:36:39Z Adlai: drmeister: "If object appears as a constant in the initialization form, at load time it will be replaced by the equivalent object constructed by the creation form; this is how the further initialization gains access to the object."
2015-03-21T22:36:49Z mood: Does anyone know of a system with a particularly high amount of dependencies? I'm playing around generating dependency graphs of systems
2015-03-21T22:37:13Z mood: This is, for example, the graph for Caveman: http://imgur.com/jIANKXN
2015-03-21T22:37:45Z Shinmera: mood: well, if you could load it, purplish (from the shirakumo dist) should have a bunch in total.
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2015-03-21T22:38:36Z Adlai: drmeister: i have a contrived example of using make-load-form: https://github.com/adlai/scalpl/blob/master/util.lisp#L59-L65
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2015-03-21T22:38:53Z drmeister: Adlai: I didn't understand that at first but I see now that I read it again that this is the mechanism.    I'm not sure how to implement it.
2015-03-21T22:40:27Z Adlai: the init-form doesn't go directly into compiled files, the file compiler needs to do something equivalent to that shallow-copy example
2015-03-21T22:40:39Z mood: Shinmera: Thanks. I can't load it, but ASDF has an opinion on its dependencies. The (:interface ...) dependencies broke my function, though
2015-03-21T22:40:53Z Shinmera: mood: They are a Radiance hack, yes.
2015-03-21T22:40:59Z Shinmera: Radiance ASDF hack, I mean
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2015-03-21T22:50:05Z mood: Purplish dependency graph, possibly incomplete: http://imgur.com/x9yenQN
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2015-03-21T22:50:23Z mood: The blue errors are :defsystem-depends-on dependencies
2015-03-21T22:50:28Z mood: s/errors/arrows
2015-03-21T22:50:46Z Shinmera: Really nice.
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2015-03-21T22:53:50Z hitecnologys: mood: Oh! Finally! I've been planning on finally finishing what I've started some time ago but it seems like you've already done my job and you've done it nicely. That's a relief, thanks a lot.
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2015-03-21T22:54:05Z Shinmera: I once generated a complete dependency graph for all quicklisp libraries
2015-03-21T22:54:10Z Shinmera: It was too big to view :(
2015-03-21T22:54:22Z hitecnologys: That's what I've been working on too.
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2015-03-21T22:54:34Z hitecnologys: But it hasn't moved since last summer.
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2015-03-21T22:54:58Z Shinmera: You can just parse the quicklisp dist txt file to get the dependency info
2015-03-21T22:55:05Z Shinmera: Much easier than mucking about with ASDF.
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2015-03-21T22:55:56Z mood: hitecnologys: Here is the code: http://paste.lisp.org/+34Z7
2015-03-21T22:56:05Z mood: It's just a big LOOP
2015-03-21T22:56:20Z drmeister: Adlai - thanks - I'll ponder that.
2015-03-21T22:56:58Z hitecnologys: mood: thanks, I'll check that out.
2015-03-21T22:56:59Z Shinmera: just parse the systems.txt file in quicklisp/dists/dist-name/systems.txt
2015-03-21T22:57:52Z hitecnologys: mood: are you drawing graph with that LW service (I might not remember whoose it was since it was long time ago)?
2015-03-21T22:58:13Z mood: hitecnologys: I'm just generating a DOT file.
2015-03-21T22:58:23Z mood: I let graphviz do the drawing
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2015-03-21T22:58:38Z hitecnologys: mood: ah, I see.
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2015-03-21T23:38:38Z mood: So... the complete Quicklisp dependency graph. It's not really readable because Graphviz's algorithm doesn't really like it. I can't find a converter that can turn it from SVG into PNG, either. Everything runs out of memory or just doesn't support the size.
2015-03-21T23:39:28Z mood: http://files.joram.io/dump/quicklisp.dot.svg (Warning, it's 4MB and your browser doesn't like it)
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2015-03-21T23:53:59Z oleo: can't you split it ?
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