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2015-03-20T03:31:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-03-20T03:35:05Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-03-20T04:18:57Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-03-20T04:19:04Z drmeister: I love HIR graphs:   http://i.imgur.com/G3qNalX.jpg
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2015-03-20T04:23:27Z beach: Do you think they could be considered works of art?
2015-03-20T04:23:45Z drmeister: I do.  They are beautiful and so functional.
2015-03-20T04:24:23Z drmeister: Anyone can slap some paint onto a canvas.
2015-03-20T04:24:35Z beach: What we need is an interactive Common Lisp application for examining such graphs.
2015-03-20T04:25:20Z Bicyclidine: graph analysis is nice, i think cytoscape has some
2015-03-20T04:25:22Z beach: ... one where the user can select areas of interest and collapse other areas to a single node.
2015-03-20T04:26:34Z beach: If so, I suppose one could write a Common Lisp function to produce a Cytoscape input, and start the Cytoscape application directly.
2015-03-20T04:27:45Z nyef: ... There's a joke here about visualizing the relationships between academic papers, but the details aren't coming to me.
2015-03-20T04:28:08Z nyef: Something about "citography" or "citoscope".
2015-03-20T04:28:25Z nyef: Possibly with an extra e in there, to make it more obvious.
2015-03-20T04:28:27Z beach: Sounds plausible.
2015-03-20T04:28:57Z nyef: ... XKCD did one about "citogenesis" with wikipedia a while back.
2015-03-20T04:29:17Z beach: Are you trying to invent a joke or recall one that you used to know?
2015-03-20T04:29:31Z nyef: More the former than the latter.
2015-03-20T04:29:47Z beach: Then I won't try to Google for it. :)
2015-03-20T04:29:56Z nyef: Heh.
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2015-03-20T04:31:35Z beach: OK, I think I successfully imported all special variables from the host that I am interested in by just taking all symbols that have earmuffs and that are not constant variables.  Then if they are bound, I initialize them.  Otherwise not.
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2015-03-20T04:32:05Z beach: It's an approximation, but it's good enough for bootstrapping purposes.
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2015-03-20T04:32:29Z drmeister: I broke my GML rendering code and haven't had time to fix it.   I've been tracking bugs.  It's always multiple-value return that screws me up.
2015-03-20T04:33:47Z drmeister: My FUNWIND-PROTECT function wasn't returning multiple values properly.
2015-03-20T04:34:39Z nyef: Eh, at least you're not getting tripped up by ARRAY NIL right now.
2015-03-20T04:34:42Z beach: drmeister: I'll attack the recursive traversal as soon as I wake up a bit more.  Right now, I had better stick to simpler things like importing special variables.
2015-03-20T04:35:07Z drmeister: No problem.  I've been wrestling with getting COMPILE to run - that would be an achievement.
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2015-03-20T04:35:32Z drmeister: That would be the bootstrapping COMPILE compiled with Cleavir/Clasp.
2015-03-20T04:36:07Z beach: drmeister: It is easy to get lost in the jungle of your compilers and interpreters.
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2015-03-20T04:36:26Z drmeister: Two compilers, one interpreter.
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2015-03-20T04:37:02Z drmeister: And yes - that is one compiler too many - but sadly... necessary
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2015-03-20T04:37:26Z beach: Sure, but then you can interpret the interpreter or the two compilers, or compile the interpreter or one of the compilers with one of the compilers.
2015-03-20T04:38:30Z beach: I don't think that compiler is "necessary".
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2015-03-20T04:39:13Z beach: On the back burner I am contemplating bootstrapping issues and why we do things the way we do.
2015-03-20T04:39:55Z drmeister: Time - if it takes a week to compile Cleavir with the interpreter then the intermediate compiler is necessary because I can't debug something that has a one week run/edit/compile cycle.
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2015-03-20T04:40:54Z beach: You are thinking a little bit more short-term than I am.
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2015-03-20T04:41:57Z drmeister: My short-term is my life-time.
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2015-03-20T04:42:50Z drmeister: Also, it's my training wheel compiler.
2015-03-20T04:42:59Z beach: My thinking started with this question: Why are some Common Lisp systems written so that they have to be bootstrapped using inferior languages?
2015-03-20T04:43:05Z nyef: ... A week? I was having a hard enough time with an edit/compile/run cycle that had to run overnight. /-:
2015-03-20T04:44:43Z nyef: beach: Another question might be "why are some Common Lisp systems written so that they can only be bootstrapped by themselves?"
2015-03-20T04:45:16Z beach: That's also a good question.
2015-03-20T04:46:01Z beach: But are there any examples of Common Lisp systems that can only be bootstrapped by themselves AND that bootstrap from source code?  I think not if you believe the paper by Xof.
2015-03-20T04:46:08Z nyef: "Why do some Lisp systems have FASLs in their source tree that must be loaded before rebuilding their source?"
2015-03-20T04:46:34Z beach: Those that can only be bootstrapped by themselves are altered by incremental modifications to an image.
2015-03-20T04:46:58Z beach: nyef: Do you know any system like that?
2015-03-20T04:47:01Z drmeister: If you want to interoperate with another language - it makes sense to write your Common Lisp in that language.
2015-03-20T04:47:15Z nyef: beach: The old LispMs were like that.
2015-03-20T04:47:23Z beach: nyef: OK.
2015-03-20T04:47:44Z beach: drmeister: That is one belief that I am questioning.
2015-03-20T04:47:47Z nyef: There was one or two files which were kept in FASL form as well as source, because they couldn't be compiled without already having been loaded.
2015-03-20T04:49:17Z ggole: How would you get such a system up and running? You'd have to author the first part of it in something other than CL (such as assembly)
2015-03-20T04:49:37Z drmeister: beach: There are two existence proofs for that approach - ECL and CLASP
2015-03-20T04:50:02Z nyef: ggole: Oh, that bit's easy enough: You cross-compile it from some other system.
2015-03-20T04:50:18Z ggole: Using another language?
2015-03-20T04:50:32Z nyef: They probably started from MACLISP.
2015-03-20T04:50:38Z beach: drmeister: You disappoint me.  the existence of those show that you CAN bootstrap that way, not that you HAVE TO.
2015-03-20T04:50:54Z beach: drmeister: => vs <=
2015-03-20T04:51:10Z ggole: Hmm, that would seem to make your bootstrapping chain awfully long if you wanted to be able to restore the whole thing rather than relying on binaries
2015-03-20T04:51:19Z ggole: Maybe the answer is to give up and rely on binaries
2015-03-20T04:52:03Z nyef: ggole: Or to sort things out so that you don't have to use binaries from an older version of the system in the build process.
2015-03-20T04:52:04Z Excedrin: sources are binaries
2015-03-20T04:52:39Z beach: Excedrin: You are making a good point.  The next question I asked myself was "what constitutes source code", i.e., why is it OK to distribute C code but not a hex dump of a binary?
2015-03-20T04:52:55Z drmeister: It's not that you have to - just that nobody has demonstrated the other approach.
2015-03-20T04:53:08Z alpha-: binary form is just a gross caching mechanism
2015-03-20T04:53:09Z ggole: nyef: then how do you build? (Other than using another language to get started.)
2015-03-20T04:53:09Z beach: drmeister: Thats *my* job.
2015-03-20T04:53:30Z nyef: ggole: Yes, there is that.
2015-03-20T04:53:36Z beach: drmeister: I question traditional wisdom for a living.
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2015-03-20T04:54:29Z ggole: nyef: you could do a "layered" thing where you implement a tiny subset and then iteratively build upon that
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2015-03-20T04:54:47Z ggole: But that's complicated and seems like it would be error prone and hard to modify
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2015-03-20T04:56:36Z alpha-: all software should be redistributed as source
2015-03-20T04:57:04Z alpha-: compilation/linking should be considered simply an implementation detail and should not concern users
2015-03-20T04:57:19Z Excedrin: with a sufficiently advanced decompiler, all software is distributed as source
2015-03-20T04:57:29Z beach: alpha-: That begs the question: "what constitutes source code?"
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2015-03-20T04:57:41Z alpha-: whatever the programmer originally wrote
2015-03-20T04:57:54Z ggole: Compiler output doesn't retain all information
2015-03-20T04:58:09Z drmeister: Here's a huge problem that you have to solve if you want to interoperate with C++.   How do you construct something CONS that a C++ function will be able to work with.  The layout of structures in memory is an implementation dependent detail for C++ compilers. The sensible way to do it is to have the CONS defined as a C++ class and have a C++ function
2015-03-20T04:58:09Z drmeister: construct it.
2015-03-20T04:58:40Z drmeister: "How do you construct a CONS that a C++ function will be able to work with"
2015-03-20T04:58:49Z ggole: Structures (maybe not classes) are layed out predictably in practice
2015-03-20T04:59:37Z drmeister: Classes with vtables are not laid out in any standard way.
2015-03-20T04:59:38Z myrkraverk: What do I use to lock files in sbcl?
2015-03-20T04:59:54Z ggole: So don't use vtables?
2015-03-20T05:00:02Z drmeister: So don't use C++.
2015-03-20T05:00:03Z ggole: (Of course, that might not be very convenient.)
2015-03-20T05:00:03Z myrkraverk: To implement process singletons.
2015-03-20T05:00:04Z beach: drmeister: That problem is different from the one that requires you to have a dumbed-down compiler written in pidgin Common Lisp.
2015-03-20T05:01:20Z drmeister: beach: Absolutely but recall - I said "If you want to interoperate with another language - it makes sense to write your Common Lisp in that language."
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2015-03-20T05:01:49Z beach: It makes absolutely no sense to me to write the Common Lisp interpreter in that language just because you want to interoperate with it.
2015-03-20T05:02:08Z Zhivago: It does make sense, and you should be able to use metaclasses to negotiate the mapping to the C++ storage strategy.
2015-03-20T05:02:44Z Zhivago: Also, since you have a compiler that targets C++, you should have the run-time infrastructure handy.
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2015-03-20T05:03:27Z beach: drmeister: I am not questioning the wisdom of writing C++ classes in C++.  I am questioning the wisdom of writing the implementation of Common Lisp (such as the compiler, the interpreter) in C++.
2015-03-20T05:03:29Z ggole: The advantage is that annoying stuff like exception handling is implemented for you by the poor bastards maintaining the C++ compiler
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2015-03-20T05:10:38Z drmeister: ggole: Exactly - I have people who deal with that for me.
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2015-03-20T05:11:42Z drmeister: beach: So you have all these classes and functions written to represent C++ objects - and you implement a CL compiler in Common Lisp - how do you make them talk to each other?
2015-03-20T05:12:21Z Excedrin: CORBA
2015-03-20T05:12:32Z Zhivago: Still, if you have this compiler, you should be able to write the interpreter in CL and have it compile to the appropriate C++?
2015-03-20T05:12:41Z Zhivago: Perhaps this is beach's point.
2015-03-20T05:12:44Z Bicyclidine: give the CL means to use assembly functions, have setup of the system compile a few docking things?
2015-03-20T05:12:47Z drmeister: If you write the interpreter in C++ they are talking to each other from day one.   As you develop the interpreter you learn all the nitty gritty, nasty details about C++ and interoperation that you can only learn on the street.
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2015-03-20T05:14:18Z drmeister: Zhivago: I don't compile to C++, I compile to LLVM bitcode - but yeah - you could do something like that.
2015-03-20T05:14:39Z Zhivago: In which case, it's a much less compelling strategy.
2015-03-20T05:15:31Z ggole: How does writing the interpreter in CL give you C++ interop?
2015-03-20T05:15:43Z ggole: At some point you'll need to implement foreign calls - what do you do then?
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2015-03-20T05:16:25Z Bicyclidine: it's not like writing in cl means you have to stay in the host image. you can write a cl program that outputs a bunch of ARM or whatnot.
2015-03-20T05:17:26Z ggole: Which bunch of assembly is, of course, the hard part
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2015-03-20T05:18:19Z ggole: (And it's not just assembly, there's all sorts of irritating table information of a format that isn't necessarily well documented by the implementation with which you are trying to inter-operate.)
2015-03-20T05:18:38Z drmeister: These are all Turing complete languages - you can make any of them do anything - writing the interpreter was not the painful part.
2015-03-20T05:18:46Z erikc: win64 c++ abi says hi
2015-03-20T05:21:46Z drmeister: Anyway, if you want to implement a new Common Lisp I'd say what beach is doing is the sensible thing - use the full language to implement itself.  Even SBCL doesn't use CLOS in it's compiler.
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2015-03-20T05:22:17Z drmeister: Now that I'm developing some familiarity with CLOS I see that it is exactly as powerful as I hoped it would be.
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2015-03-20T05:24:12Z drmeister: But if the goal is interoperation with another language then I think it's wise to work in that language - the ugly details will become apparent earlier.  And there will be really ugly details because they aren't Common Lisp.
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2015-03-20T05:24:32Z nyef: The problem with using CLOS in your compiler is having to have CLOS available during bootstrap.
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2015-03-20T05:25:26Z nyef: I'm sufficiently unfamiliar with CLOS implementation to know if/how that might be finessed... or brute-forced.
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2015-03-20T05:28:19Z Zhivago: drmeister: Do you have any incremental compilation support?
2015-03-20T05:31:35Z drmeister: I'm not sure what you mean.  Do you mean forms are left in some intermediate state and only compiled to native code when they are needed?
2015-03-20T05:32:04Z Zhivago: I mean, can you run the compiler at run-time to extend the implementation?
2015-03-20T05:32:14Z drmeister: Oh heck yeah.
2015-03-20T05:32:28Z drmeister: And without going to external files.
2015-03-20T05:32:36Z Zhivago: Why not implement the interpreter by compiling the commands you receive and then executing them?
2015-03-20T05:32:41Z drmeister: I do.
2015-03-20T05:32:53Z Zhivago: Then ... what is this discussion about? :)
2015-03-20T05:33:00Z drmeister: But to bootstrap I have to start out with an interpreter.
2015-03-20T05:33:25Z drmeister: I load about 30 source files and about 15 of them are a Common Lisp compiler written in pidgin Common Lisp.
2015-03-20T05:33:48Z Zhivago: Aha.
2015-03-20T05:33:49Z drmeister: They compile themselves and then I insert an implicit compilation into the repl.
2015-03-20T05:34:13Z drmeister: Then I load the rest of the 84 source files and they are all compiled with COMPILE.
2015-03-20T05:35:08Z drmeister: Uh, not quite - sorry.  They load another dozen files  - build a minimal Common Lisp (no CLOS) and I use that to load the 84 source files and COMPILE-FILE everything.
2015-03-20T05:35:20Z drmeister: Then it links it all together into one image and does all sorts of inlining.
2015-03-20T05:35:40Z drmeister: That's the point where Cleavir comes in.
2015-03-20T05:35:46Z aeth: Oh, nice, sbcl has an ARM port for the last year or so. Does anyone use sbcl on ARM?
2015-03-20T05:36:30Z aeth: Last time I checked http://sbcl.org/platform-table.html there was no ARM
2015-03-20T05:36:40Z aeth: Apparently I didn't check within the past year
2015-03-20T05:39:24Z nyef: aeth: It may come as a bit of a surprise, but I actually don't use SBCL on ARM.
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2015-03-20T05:40:32Z beach: I am sure we will get back to this discussion about bootstrapping at some later point in time.  But form the current discussion, I already have much more material for my thinking.
2015-03-20T05:40:47Z aeth: nyef: what do you use on ARM then?
2015-03-20T05:41:08Z nyef: A very small number of android apps.
2015-03-20T05:41:23Z aeth: ah
2015-03-20T05:41:27Z nyef: Haven't even bothered booting a shell prompt on ARM in a while, let alone SBCL.
2015-03-20T05:43:58Z nyef: SBCL/ARM hasn't been upstream for a year yet.
2015-03-20T05:44:14Z aeth: Android disappoints me. The apps aren't even free as in beer anymore. They're mostly free as in track your data, cover the app with ads, and try to upsell you to a $5 premium version and/or use in-app-purchases. :-(
2015-03-20T05:45:07Z nyef: The last entry in my log is 2014-Apr-23, but it's from before nailing the stack-switch thing and getting it to self-host.
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2015-03-20T05:59:44Z drmeister: Achievement unlocked!
2015-03-20T05:59:55Z beach: drmeister: ?
2015-03-20T06:00:34Z drmeister: I just compiled code bootstrapping compiler compiled with Cleavir/Clasp.  Cccccool!
2015-03-20T06:01:01Z drmeister: compiled code with the bootstrapping compiler compiled with Cleaver/Clasp - phew
2015-03-20T06:01:10Z jasom: huzzah!
2015-03-20T06:01:12Z drmeister: That tests a lot of code.
2015-03-20T06:01:17Z beach: Wow, that's great progress.
2015-03-20T06:04:24Z drmeister: I have LOOP and FORMAT compiled with Cleavir/Clasp as well - pretty much everything but CLOS.
2015-03-20T06:04:34Z drmeister: What's a LOOP macro I could try.
2015-03-20T06:04:39Z drmeister: Looking
2015-03-20T06:05:24Z beach: Do you mean an example of using LOOP?
2015-03-20T06:06:28Z beach: You could look in the ANSI test suite by Paul Dietz.  I have loop forms in Code/Loop/Test
2015-03-20T06:06:28Z drmeister: Yes, my little test cases work.
2015-03-20T06:06:53Z drmeister: Hmm, I'll try a list traversal
2015-03-20T06:07:53Z beach: How is the work with tagging going?
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2015-03-20T06:08:41Z drmeister: That was the next thing I was going to do.   I was going to talk to you about the best tagging scheme and take the plunge and implement it.
2015-03-20T06:09:09Z drmeister: FIXNUM 0x00   Objects 0x11   CONSes 0x10   stuff like that.
2015-03-20T06:09:10Z beach: I think it is best to have that discussion here.
2015-03-20T06:09:26Z drmeister: Right - but not tonight - I should get to bed.
2015-03-20T06:09:30Z beach: Sure.
2015-03-20T06:09:32Z drmeister: It's after 2:00am here.
2015-03-20T06:09:41Z beach: I would say fixnum xx0
2015-03-20T06:09:46Z beach: Like in SBCL.
2015-03-20T06:10:37Z drmeister: Is there any way to implement double-floats within pointers?
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2015-03-20T06:11:17Z beach: Only on processors with more than 64 bits in the pointer.
2015-03-20T06:11:23Z Bicyclidine: ooh, there's that horrible thing with stuffing things into NaNs
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2015-03-20T06:11:49Z tilarok: (hello)
2015-03-20T06:11:55Z drmeister: More horrible than tagged pointers?
2015-03-20T06:12:04Z beach: Hello tilarok.
2015-03-20T06:12:30Z drmeister: Actually - brucem put me on to some articles about NAN and NUN tagging.
2015-03-20T06:12:32Z beach: drmeister: You can implement a float format that uses the last few bits of the mantissa as a tag.
2015-03-20T06:12:41Z drmeister: I think I'll stick with low bit tagging.
2015-03-20T06:13:36Z jasom did something evil: I switched from a mutable type to an immutable type, and defined a setf expander to assign to the variable holding the immutable structure that is being "changed"
2015-03-20T06:14:34Z jasom: I should probably go through and remove all of those SETFs, but this was a lot faster
2015-03-20T06:14:55Z pjb: Excedrin: that's all the point: where do you stop decompiling.  We'd like to decompile up to the specifications, so that you can easily change the "source" language :-)
2015-03-20T06:14:56Z ggole: That's pretty underhanded.
2015-03-20T06:15:13Z Excedrin: pjb: just keep going until it's just an idea
2015-03-20T06:15:19Z Excedrin: ideas all the way down
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2015-03-20T06:20:17Z beach: drmeister: fixnum xx0, cons 001, char 010, heap other than cons 011
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2015-03-20T06:21:35Z beach: er, sorry
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2015-03-20T06:22:19Z beach: drmeister: fixnum xx0, cons 001, char 011, heap other than cons 101, single float 111
2015-03-20T06:23:06Z pjb: aeth: that's why my next firmware burn will be with http://linuxonandroid.org/
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2015-03-20T06:24:51Z drmeister: There's also my immediate NIL and UNBOUND.   I know you don't like them - but I'd have to think hard about eliminating them.
2015-03-20T06:25:35Z beach: drmeister: You can always use more tag bits for x11.
2015-03-20T06:25:52Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-03-20T06:26:09Z Zhivago: I think that unbound makes good sense for separate compilation.
2015-03-20T06:26:21Z beach: drmeister: char 0011, single float 0111 nil ?????1011, unbound ????1111
2015-03-20T06:26:46Z drmeister: Sure.
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2015-03-20T06:28:17Z drmeister: Zhivago: UNBOUND comes up deep in the ECL CLOS code - I needed it for something in there.  ECL has NIL, UNBOUND and a couple other immediate special values.
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2015-03-20T06:28:55Z Zhivago: Yeah. It's one thing that I think javascript got right also -- having undefined as effectively a value.
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2015-03-20T06:29:29Z drmeister: beach: Got it.
2015-03-20T06:30:08Z drmeister: So three bits for tags - That will limit memory on 32 bit systems if I ever decide to go there.
2015-03-20T06:30:26Z beach: Just allocate on a double-word boundary.
2015-03-20T06:30:51Z drmeister: Right - but I only get half as many objects in memory then - is that a problem?
2015-03-20T06:31:09Z beach: No object is a single word.
2015-03-20T06:31:23Z beach: The smallest object is a CONS which has 2 words.
2015-03-20T06:31:26Z Zhivago: Only if they were smaller than that alignment.
2015-03-20T06:31:38Z drmeister: Oh - right, if they were they'd be stuffed inside a pointer.
2015-03-20T06:31:55Z Zhivago: Well, you might have one word indirection boxes as part of your implementation.
2015-03-20T06:32:03Z drmeister: A tagged pointer.
2015-03-20T06:32:17Z beach: A pointer is not a heap-allocated object.
2015-03-20T06:32:26Z drmeister: Zhivago: Nope - I don't know what those are.
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2015-03-20T06:32:51Z Zhivago: drmeister: Just an object storing a pointer to allow it to be mutated -- like a single slot cons.
2015-03-20T06:32:54Z drmeister: Or rather: Nope - what the heck are those?
2015-03-20T06:33:04Z Zhivago: The usual term for that was 'box', iirc.
2015-03-20T06:33:11Z ggole: Or cell
2015-03-20T06:33:12Z beach: They were called locatives in the Lisp machine?
2015-03-20T06:33:27Z drmeister: Got it.  Like closure cells.  beach convinced me to use CONSes.
2015-03-20T06:33:30Z beach: drmeister: If you want those, you just waste one word.
2015-03-20T06:33:33Z Zhivago: You may not have a use for them, but they'd be an example of a potential one slot object.
2015-03-20T06:33:39Z ggole: I thought locatives were a feature allowing you to point into the middle of things
2015-03-20T06:33:52Z beach: ggole: You may very well be right.
2015-03-20T06:34:09Z drmeister: locatives - that's an interesting word.  Are they a pointer + offset?
2015-03-20T06:34:54Z ggole: I'm not sure what the implementation was
2015-03-20T06:35:18Z drmeister: I may need to use something like that when I implement moving GC managed code.
2015-03-20T06:35:48Z beach: drmeister: Like I said, if one day you want 1-word objects, you just allocate 2 words for them.  There won't be that many in your system so the wasted space is unimportant.
2015-03-20T06:35:49Z drmeister: A pointer to the start of the code block and an offset into the code block.
2015-03-20T06:36:30Z drmeister: I'll just use CONS cells.  I can stick debugging info into the other pointer maybe.
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2015-03-20T06:36:52Z drmeister: Now it's 2:36am and once again I'm chatting away on IRC while stuff compiles - I better get to bed.
2015-03-20T06:36:59Z beach: drmeister: Doesn't C++ allocate on a double-word boundary already?
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2015-03-20T06:37:33Z beach should have mentioned a particular implementation, rather than a language.
2015-03-20T06:37:42Z beach: 'night drmeister.
2015-03-20T06:37:53Z drmeister: I don't know about malloc - I left that behind a long time ago.  I'd have to look it up for the Boehm and MPS garbage collectors.  I know the MPS garbage collector is configurable.
2015-03-20T06:38:10Z ggole: malloc/new used to guarantee maximum necessary alignment
2015-03-20T06:38:27Z ggole: But I think that broke when aligned vector types came into common use
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2015-03-20T06:39:19Z ggole: And you wouldn't want to have to align every allocation enough to work with, say, AVX vectors
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2015-03-20T06:39:39Z drmeister: Cleavir/Clasp is compiling the minimal CL again.   beach - if you have time to fix that recursive traversal I can incorporate it tomorrow and I might be able to compile everything.
2015-03-20T06:39:54Z beach: ggole: What's the alignment of those?
2015-03-20T06:39:58Z drmeister: And then it's optimization, optimization, optimization.
2015-03-20T06:40:01Z drmeister: Good night all.
2015-03-20T06:40:06Z beach: drmeister: Will do.
2015-03-20T06:40:08Z ggole: 256-bit, 512 in the latest revision
2015-03-20T06:40:37Z beach: That's a bit stiff in effect.
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2015-03-20T06:41:20Z ggole: Typically you would use something other than the general purpose allocator
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2015-03-20T07:32:25Z smokeink: http://oremacs.com/lispy/demo-2 when i press 'e'  i get : Symbol's value as variable is void : slime-parse . Any idea how to fix it? Do you prefere paredit over lispy ?
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2015-03-20T07:45:51Z antoszka: smokeink: suppose that won't work well in evil-mode.
2015-03-20T07:46:07Z antoszka: Though I'm curious about giving it a try.
2015-03-20T07:46:14Z antoszka: Is there any introduction?
2015-03-20T07:46:17Z myrkraverk: What is cl for the posix exit( 1 )?  I don't see sb-posix:exit, nor exit nor quit (quickly) in the clhs.
2015-03-20T07:46:36Z smokeink: https://github.com/abo-abo/lispy
2015-03-20T07:46:45Z ehu: morning.
2015-03-20T07:46:57Z Shinmera: myrkraverk: sb-ext:exit
2015-03-20T07:47:03Z myrkraverk: Ah.
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2015-03-20T08:21:42Z tuturto: hi, I have been tinkering a bit with sbcl and wanted to use cl-async. I'm on Ubuntu 14.04. cl-async depends on libuv 1.x and version in Ubuntu repositories is 0.10
2015-03-20T08:22:28Z tuturto: I suppose I could build and install 1.x by hand, but does that sounds like a good idea?
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2015-03-20T08:22:48Z tuturto: anyone here have any experience about similar situation?
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2015-03-20T08:23:29Z guicho: I agree with installing those dependencies manually.
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2015-03-20T08:24:16Z guicho: iolib requires libfixposix, libuv for cl-async, and even libffi sometimes, for cffi.
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2015-03-20T08:25:48Z tuturto: ok, I'll give it a go, thanks
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2015-03-20T08:33:01Z splittist watches with horrified nostalgia as his GitLab accesses come up...
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2015-03-20T08:33:42Z ehu: splittist ?
2015-03-20T08:34:23Z ehu: splittist: why's that?
2015-03-20T08:34:26Z splittist: ehu: no bad thing. Just seeing what I did back when I did things.
2015-03-20T08:34:33Z ehu: ah.
2015-03-20T08:34:49Z jasom: myrkraverk: most lisp implementations that aren't sbcl use QUIT, but sbcl's QUIT was stupid in the presence of threads, so they made EXIT and deprecated QUIT.
2015-03-20T08:34:52Z ehu: yea. that's a personal frustration for me too.
2015-03-20T08:35:14Z myrkraverk: jasom, ok.
2015-03-20T08:35:30Z ehu: some good memories, though.
2015-03-20T08:36:21Z guicho: I'm looking for a good name for a macro I am writing, which has similar feature as (declaim (ftype ...)), but accepts type variables (similar to those in ML). It has to have characters of length 5.
2015-03-20T08:36:24Z jasom: tuturto, guicho: if you don't want to find dependencies, basic-binary-ipc does asynchronous communication with no external libraries required
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2015-03-20T08:40:02Z guicho: 5 characters, because it would look good when placed just above (defun ...).
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2015-03-20T08:40:44Z splittist: guicho: DECFN - think of the amusing confusion!
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2015-03-20T08:42:07Z tuturto: jasom: I'm looking for a library for asynchronous programming in general and not ipc specifically
2015-03-20T08:42:40Z tuturto: and cl-async looked quite promising
2015-03-20T08:42:53Z jasom: tuturto: it's named poorly; basic-binary-ipc is just asynchronous socket communication
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2015-03-20T08:44:41Z tuturto: I'll have a look at that too
2015-03-20T08:44:43Z guicho: splittist: what that's abbreviated from?
2015-03-20T08:44:47Z tuturto: thanks for the suggestion
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2015-03-20T08:45:28Z jasom: tuturto: you will have to write your own event-loop for basic-binary-ipc, but that's about 5 minutes work
2015-03-20T08:45:29Z guicho: tuturto: easy-but-dirty way is lparallel. some claims it is not so fast.
2015-03-20T08:45:35Z splittist: guicho: declaim function type ...
2015-03-20T08:47:17Z jasom: guicho: strangely enough, I smashed b-b-i and lparallel together: https://github.com/jasom/ipc-serve/blob/master/ipc-serve.lisp
2015-03-20T08:48:24Z jasom: guicho: I didn't find it gained me a lot versus a more traditional event loop though
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2015-03-20T08:49:43Z guicho: jasom: I feel the interface of lparallel is quite intuiteive and valuable. but scalability, not sure. at least, not for high-performance computing.
2015-03-20T08:50:49Z jasom: And see here where I converted a webserver based on cl-async to basic-binary-ipc https://github.com/jasom/woo/tree/basic-binary-ipc
2015-03-20T08:51:35Z Soft quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2015-03-20T08:52:10Z jasom: In particular the adaptation layer is in this file: https://github.com/jasom/woo/blob/basic-binary-ipc/src/bbi-wrap.lisp
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2015-03-20T08:54:05Z myrkraverk: guicho, xyzzy?
2015-03-20T08:54:18Z myrkraverk: as in, a name.
2015-03-20T08:55:27Z jasom: guicho: how about just thie first 5 letters in declaim: DECLA
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2015-03-20T08:58:00Z guicho: to be honest, I want to use "ftype" itself. it's clean and explains the feature very well. however, it modifies the CL symbol. dilemma.
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2015-03-20T09:03:58Z myrkraverk: gtype? (from the next letter in the alphabet?)
2015-03-20T09:05:01Z guicho: myrkraverk: that's good.
2015-03-20T09:05:12Z guicho: also as "generic type".
2015-03-20T09:05:17Z myrkraverk: C:
2015-03-20T09:05:23Z guicho: thanks.
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2015-03-20T09:17:06Z myrkraverk: I've been googling clhs <term> all day, and clhs format was the first one to give a google definition.
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2015-03-20T09:17:45Z myrkraverk: Did I trigger something at google? Or is old?
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2015-03-20T09:19:15Z Shinmera: You'll probably rather want to use http://l1sp.org/
2015-03-20T09:20:43Z myrkraverk: Maybe.
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2015-03-20T09:20:55Z Shinmera: Quit definitely. Google is rather awful for lookup.
2015-03-20T09:21:11Z Shinmera: *Quite
2015-03-20T09:22:33Z myrkraverk: Yeah, I know how awful google can be.
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2015-03-20T09:24:45Z faheem_: why is Google awful?
2015-03-20T09:24:58Z Shinmera: Because it hardly ever gives you the page you need in the clhs
2015-03-20T09:26:27Z Shinmera: The hyperspec lookup on the other hand will give you the exact page you want for any given function.
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2015-03-20T09:31:23Z Shinmera: Google is especially terrible for looking up any kind of programming language functionality because it likes to ignore all kinds of case and non-alphanumeric information.
2015-03-20T09:31:48Z Shinmera: There was a search engine tuned for programming lookup, but I forgot what it was.
2015-03-20T09:32:58Z ggole: Google code search?
2015-03-20T09:33:58Z Shinmera: Doesn't that just search google code projects?
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2015-03-20T09:34:44Z ggole: No, it was a search engine that had more program-friendly indexing (operators, punctuation, allowed regexps, etc)
2015-03-20T09:34:52Z ggole: Of course it was shut down
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2015-03-20T09:34:57Z Shinmera: Ah- of course.
2015-03-20T09:35:07Z Shinmera: And no, that wasn't it. I had it about a year ago and it should still exist.
2015-03-20T09:35:45Z Shinmera: ah, http://www.symbolhound.com/ might be it
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2015-03-20T09:36:11Z ggole: Hmm, haven't seen that one
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2015-03-20T09:38:55Z splittist: searchcode.com?
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2015-03-20T09:40:11Z Shinmera: That's for projects, not documentation.
2015-03-20T09:41:51Z splittist: fair enough.
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2015-03-20T09:48:19Z smokeink: how to get a function's definition in CL ? is there any way to make function-lambda-expression return the body of a function with the parameters supplied?
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2015-03-20T09:49:02Z smokeink: for example for (defun f (x) (+ x x)) is there any way to get the body of (f 2) ?   (+ 2 2)
2015-03-20T09:49:02Z guicho: possibly (declare (inline ...)). I am just working on the similar issue.
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2015-03-20T09:53:17Z ggole: smokeink: there's no portable way to do such a thing
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2015-03-20T10:00:29Z lieven: even stronger, an implementation is free to have function-lambda-expression return nil for all calls
2015-03-20T10:00:35Z Shinmera: Some impls will make f-l-e return the right thing given high enough debug.
2015-03-20T10:00:57Z Shinmera: And some impls have absolutely no way whatsoever to retrieve the code, f.e. by lacking source code tracking.
2015-03-20T10:01:31Z Zhivago: You could define your own DEFUN macro which captured the body.
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2015-03-20T10:03:12Z guicho: regarding these, I hope some aspect-oriented feature in commonlisp. more hooks to add to any macros, without wrapping something with defun.
2015-03-20T10:03:46Z guicho: s/defun/macros/g
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2015-03-20T10:04:16Z Zhivago: There isn't. :)
2015-03-20T10:04:36Z guicho: cl-annot may be an ad-hoc answer since it is basically parsing the expansion body.
2015-03-20T10:04:40Z Shinmera: What would be the point anyway? Either the macros are already expanded so a hook serves no purpose, or you can just override it.
2015-03-20T10:04:59Z Zhivago: Well, there's a *macroexpand-hook*
2015-03-20T10:05:01Z lieven: defun is a macro so you could push something onto *macro-expand-hook*
2015-03-20T10:05:06Z Zhivago: That might do what you want.
2015-03-20T10:05:45Z Shinmera: *macroexpand-hook* is iffy because you can only have one function on it.
2015-03-20T10:06:00Z Zhivago: You can chain them.
2015-03-20T10:06:12Z Shinmera: Sure, but you don't know that someone else in the future load chain will.
2015-03-20T10:06:28Z guicho: yes. somwhat similar to define-compiler-hint in compiler-macro.
2015-03-20T10:07:22Z Zhivago: If they don't respect the previous value, they can suffer the consequences.
2015-03-20T10:08:47Z Shinmera: They don't. You will, because your hook will be gone, not theirs.
2015-03-20T10:09:26Z guicho: chain = chain several hooks? hmm.
2015-03-20T10:09:28Z Zhivago: You have it backward.
2015-03-20T10:10:01Z Shinmera: In what way?
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2015-03-20T10:10:33Z Zhivago: If someone else composes your code with code that breaks it, then that's a problem of the composed code.
2015-03-20T10:10:51Z guicho: what if we have one reliable macroexpansion hook that calls the other user-supplied hooks safely.
2015-03-20T10:10:53Z Zhivago: And the blame accrues to the breaker.
2015-03-20T10:11:03Z Zhivago: Then you need to get everyone to agree to use it.
2015-03-20T10:11:15Z guicho: yes.
2015-03-20T10:12:01Z Zhivago: Just track down the offending code and break the coder's fingers.
2015-03-20T10:12:20Z Zhivago: or fix it. :)
2015-03-20T10:12:24Z Shinmera: Sure, but effectively the problem will be that your code doesn't work right anymore for that scenario.
2015-03-20T10:12:27Z Zhivago: There's a social solution to shitty code.
2015-03-20T10:12:42Z Shinmera: My issue is that such a kludge situation has to exist at all.
2015-03-20T10:12:43Z Zhivago: No. The problem will be that you composed crap into that scenario, and need to fix or remove the crap.
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2015-03-20T10:14:41Z Shinmera: That's what you have to do in the end, but that won't be the symptom being noticed.
2015-03-20T10:15:37Z Zhivago: Well, there's no magic solution to people writing broken code.
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2015-03-20T10:15:53Z posterdati-bsd: hi
2015-03-20T10:16:11Z guicho: hi
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2015-03-20T10:17:50Z posterdati-bsd: please, I've got this problem with sbcl 1.2.7 and quicklisp on freebsd 10.1: debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR:   In (UIOP/FILESYSTEM:GETENV-PATHNAMES "XDG_CONFIG_DIRS"), invalid pathname #P"": Expected an absolute pathname
2015-03-20T10:18:22Z Shinmera: Zhivago: Sure, but you can go a long way by having an interface that strongly urges you in the right direction from the get go.
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2015-03-20T10:19:16Z Zhivago: Well, then you have the problem of getting people to use it, unless the idea is to revise the CL standard, which has the problem of getting people to agree to it and then to use it. :")
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2015-03-20T10:19:50Z Shinmera: I know that the standard is about as final as it gets. But I consider *macroexpand-hook* ill-designed.
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2015-03-20T10:19:52Z Zhivago: And if your point is that the CL standard is a rotting heap of hacks that used to be expedient, then well, you're mostly right.
2015-03-20T10:20:51Z remi`bd: :D
2015-03-20T10:21:13Z Shinmera: posterdati-bsd: Looks like a bug in ASDF for freebsd. Not exactly a strongly tested target either I'd wager.
2015-03-20T10:22:27Z Shinmera: posterdati-bsd: what are the circumstances of this happening?
2015-03-20T10:23:10Z posterdati-bsd: quicklisp fresh install
2015-03-20T10:23:22Z Shinmera: No, I mean, what did you /do/ that the error appears?
2015-03-20T10:23:30Z posterdati-bsd: (quicklisp-quickstart:install)
2015-03-20T10:23:33Z posterdati-bsd: ...
2015-03-20T10:23:43Z Shinmera: So it's during the install?
2015-03-20T10:23:54Z posterdati-bsd: 5,078 bytes in 0.00 seconds (2479.49KB/sec)
2015-03-20T10:23:54Z posterdati-bsd: ; Fetching #<URL "http://beta.quicklisp.org/asdf/2.26/asdf.lisp">
2015-03-20T10:23:54Z posterdati-bsd: ; 194.07KB
2015-03-20T10:23:54Z posterdati-bsd: ==================================================
2015-03-20T10:23:54Z posterdati-bsd: 198,729 bytes in 0.41 seconds (467.64KB/sec)
2015-03-20T10:23:55Z posterdati-bsd: debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR:
2015-03-20T10:24:02Z Shinmera: Don't paste in here.
2015-03-20T10:24:12Z posterdati-bsd: sorry
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2015-03-20T10:24:33Z Shinmera: Is the XDG_CONFIG_DIRS environment variable set?
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2015-03-20T10:25:00Z posterdati-bsd: I did not set it, should I_
2015-03-20T10:25:03Z posterdati-bsd: I did not set it, should I?
2015-03-20T10:25:16Z Shinmera: It's not set on my system, so I don't think so.
2015-03-20T10:26:12Z Shinmera: If you launch sbcl, do (require 'uiop) (uiop/filesystem:getenv-pathnames "XDG_CONFIG_DIRS")
2015-03-20T10:26:18Z Shinmera: does the same error occur?
2015-03-20T10:27:10Z posterdati-bsd: (#P"" #P"/etc/xdg" #P"/usr/local/etc/xdg" #P"/usr/local/etc/xdg/xfce4")
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2015-03-20T10:27:35Z Shinmera: Ah-- so it is set somewhere after all and either set badly or parsed incorrectly.
2015-03-20T10:27:46Z Shinmera: Try unsetting the environment variable before launching sbcl.
2015-03-20T10:28:23Z posterdati-bsd: echo $XDG_CONFIG_DIRS
2015-03-20T10:28:23Z posterdati-bsd: :/etc/xdg:/usr/local/etc/xdg:/usr/local/etc/xdg/xfce4
2015-03-20T10:28:38Z Shinmera: Yeah that colon in the beginning is making ASDF confused.
2015-03-20T10:28:49Z posterdati-bsd: ok
2015-03-20T10:28:57Z Shinmera: Remove it and it should, hopefully, work.
2015-03-20T10:29:10Z posterdati-bsd: export XDG_CONFIG_DIRS=
2015-03-20T10:30:26Z posterdati-bsd: not working
2015-03-20T10:30:43Z Shinmera: How is it "not working"? The same error?
2015-03-20T10:30:51Z posterdati-bsd: yes
2015-03-20T10:31:04Z guicho: (why does asdf need xdg anyways...?)
2015-03-20T10:31:15Z Shinmera: guicho: Default directories for ASD files.
2015-03-20T10:31:37Z guicho: really.
2015-03-20T10:31:44Z Shinmera: posterdati-bsd: Try the (uiop/filesystem:getenv-pathnames "XDG_CONFIG_DIRS") again
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2015-03-20T10:31:54Z Shinmera: posterdati-bsd: if you did unset it properly, it should now return NIL
2015-03-20T10:32:13Z posterdati-bsd: ok
2015-03-20T10:32:47Z Shinmera: guicho: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Controlling-where-ASDF-searches-for-systems.html
2015-03-20T10:33:10Z guicho: Shinmera: thanks.
2015-03-20T10:33:32Z posterdati-bsd: Shinmera: is NIL
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2015-03-20T10:33:59Z Shinmera: posterdati-bsd: I don't see how it can error about a #p"" pathname then.
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2015-03-20T10:34:45Z guicho: is the error message the same as previous?
2015-03-20T10:34:54Z guicho: is the error message the same as the previous one?
2015-03-20T10:35:04Z posterdati-bsd: yes
2015-03-20T10:35:20Z guicho: did you restarted sbcl?
2015-03-20T10:35:27Z posterdati-bsd: yes
2015-03-20T10:35:35Z posterdati-bsd: and removed old quicklisp dir too
2015-03-20T10:35:47Z guicho: muu
2015-03-20T10:35:55Z Shinmera: It's not a quicklisp problem.
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2015-03-20T10:36:40Z Shinmera: If your error reporting so far is accurate then I don't know what else is going wrong. Posting to the ASDF mailing list is probably the best way to get help if nobody else online here has an idea.
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2015-03-20T10:37:07Z guicho: at least the stack trace would also be helpful.
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2015-03-20T10:37:26Z guicho: maybe we get some idea.
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2015-03-20T10:43:47Z ehu: ok. common-lisp.net migration finished. please report problems to admin@common-lisp.net
2015-03-20T10:45:02Z jackdaniel: try removing cache maybe?
2015-03-20T10:45:09Z jackdaniel: ~/.cache/common-lisp/
2015-03-20T10:45:43Z posterdati-bsd: Shinmera: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146388
2015-03-20T10:45:47Z Shinmera: That only stores FASL files, not actual ASDF configuration.
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2015-03-20T10:47:24Z Shinmera: That's not the same error at all!
2015-03-20T10:47:24Z posterdati-bsd: Shinmera: oh wait! I chose 0 and installation went on
2015-03-20T10:47:35Z Shinmera: It's now failing on XDG_DATA_DIRS
2015-03-20T10:47:55Z Shinmera: So that one's ill-set as well, most likely.
2015-03-20T10:47:55Z posterdati-bsd: in fact now XDG_DATA_DIRS=""
2015-03-20T10:49:21Z Shinmera: "" is not the same as unset.
2015-03-20T10:49:49Z Shinmera: you need to really use: unset XDG_DATA_DIRS
2015-03-20T10:50:25Z guicho: can imagine how Shinmera's yelling out @ home
2015-03-20T10:50:35Z Shinmera: guicho: What?
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2015-03-20T10:51:16Z guicho: no just don't care.
2015-03-20T10:51:45Z Shinmera: I'm confused.
2015-03-20T10:52:09Z Shinmera: But, I'm also going to go for lunch.
2015-03-20T10:52:17Z Shinmera: posterdati-bsd: I hope you can get it to work. If not, I'll read the logs.
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2015-03-20T10:52:54Z guicho: "That's not the same error at all!" part.
2015-03-20T10:53:14Z guicho: unfortunately he's out.
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2015-03-20T11:19:11Z posterdati-bsd: cmucl seems to not replicate the problem!
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2015-03-20T11:21:35Z xyh: if I use a hash-table of string to implement symbol (of course),
2015-03-20T11:21:36Z xyh: when I compile a source-file to a ready-to-be-loaded-file, how the symbol should be handled ?
2015-03-20T11:21:36Z xyh: for when I need to load the ready-to-be-loaded-file, the hash-table might be different from the one before.
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2015-03-20T11:23:31Z Shinmera: posterdati-bsd: It might have to do with how environment variables are interpreted. CMUCL might say "" == NIL
2015-03-20T11:23:45Z posterdati-bsd: ok
2015-03-20T11:23:45Z Shinmera: guicho: I was far too bored in a lecture to be shouting.
2015-03-20T11:24:17Z Shinmera: posterdati-bsd: I'm only speculating though. From what I've seen SBCL's behaviour is correct, though ASDF might want to have a patch to check for empty paths and remove those rather than just failing.
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2015-03-20T11:24:43Z posterdati-bsd: seems that this problem is discussed on a forum
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2015-03-20T11:38:04Z Cymew: posterdati-bsd: Have you tried any other version of sbcl, or with a version of asdf not from sbcl?
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2015-03-20T11:38:37Z Cymew: I will have to test that on my bsd machine later day
2015-03-20T11:38:43Z Cymew: s/day/today/
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2015-03-20T12:05:29Z scymtym: Shinmera: posterdati-bsd: from skimming over your conversation, could the problem be related to https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1396847?
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2015-03-20T12:06:05Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-03-20T12:06:43Z Shinmera: UIOP doesn't drop empty subsequences, leading to #p"", which in turn confuses ASDF.
2015-03-20T12:06:56Z scymtym: i'm not sure whether that fix landed in SBCL
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2015-03-20T12:07:19Z scymtym: SBCL's asdf is updated sporadically
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2015-03-20T12:18:57Z Cymew: So, maybe posterdati-bsd could try with a bleeding edge asdf, since the one in sbcl-1.2.7 might be pretty old, right?
2015-03-20T12:19:27Z Cymew: Looking at that conversation on launchpad makes my head spin....
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2015-03-20T12:28:36Z posterdati-bsd: Cymew: but this asdf is the one that quicklisp loads
2015-03-20T12:29:42Z Cymew: Hmm.
2015-03-20T12:30:16Z Cymew: Why is quicklisp downloading asdf when running install? Don't your sbcl ship with a asdf?
2015-03-20T12:31:34Z posterdati-bsd: it loads asdf 2.26
2015-03-20T12:31:45Z Cymew: That's ancient
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2015-03-20T12:32:25Z Cymew: if you just start sbcl and (REQUIRE 'ASDF) what version does that load?
2015-03-20T12:33:04Z posterdati-bsd: do not know
2015-03-20T12:33:29Z stelian is now known as fe[nl]ix_
2015-03-20T12:33:34Z fe[nl]ix_: Xach: ping
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2015-03-20T12:36:19Z Cymew: posterdati-bsd: What does *FEATURES* show? Is there a :ASDF3 there?
2015-03-20T12:36:44Z posterdati-bsd: asdf3.1
2015-03-20T12:37:07Z posterdati-bsd: :asdf3
2015-03-20T12:37:14Z Cymew: Hmm. Why on earth would quicklisp install an older asdf then? Maybe I'm to stupid for asdf...
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2015-03-20T12:38:17Z myrkraverk: Is it possible to truncate a file without resorting to sb-posix?
2015-03-20T12:38:47Z dim: (setf (file-length ...)) maybe? (no I don't know)
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2015-03-20T12:39:08Z myrkraverk: As I understand it, opening with :if-exists :overwrite does not automatically truncate the file.
2015-03-20T12:39:51Z lieven: file-length isn't a place
2015-03-20T12:40:50Z lieven: myrkraverk: have you tried :supersede ?
2015-03-20T12:41:02Z myrkraverk: Not yet.
2015-03-20T12:41:58Z myrkraverk: That may be a better choice than :overwrite.
2015-03-20T12:43:24Z fe[nl]ix_: the standard API has no way or truncating a file to a given length
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2015-03-20T12:43:59Z myrkraverk: Ok, then maybe I'm better off with sb-posix:ftruncate.
2015-03-20T12:45:19Z lieven: to be fair, a lot of the filesystems current when the spec was written didn't have a truncate.
2015-03-20T12:45:20Z posterdati-bsd: unset XDG_CONFIG_DIRS and performing (require 'asdf) before install quicklisp seems to work on sbcl
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2015-03-20T12:46:36Z fe[nl]ix_: lieven: true, but irrelevant here
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2015-03-20T12:53:11Z Cymew: posterdati-bsd: Sounds good. Then it will pick up asdfv3 and that works
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2015-03-20T12:56:56Z posterdati-bsd: so
2015-03-20T12:57:13Z posterdati-bsd: I unset XDG_CONFIG_DIRS and XDG_DATA_DIRS and all went well
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2015-03-20T13:10:51Z Xach: fe[nl]ix_: was ist los?
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2015-03-20T13:16:20Z Xach: Cymew: it downloads asdf but does not load it unless there is no other asdf available.
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2015-03-20T13:17:46Z Cymew: Xach: I see. Is 2.26 some kind of lowest common denominator, or why that version?
2015-03-20T13:19:23Z Xach: Cymew: It was the newest at the time.
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2015-03-20T13:19:56Z Xach: I will provide 3 sometime
2015-03-20T13:20:50Z Cymew: Makes sense
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2015-03-20T13:22:40Z posterdati-bsd: no
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2015-03-20T13:23:15Z posterdati-bsd: how can I unset those vars in the emacs process environment?
2015-03-20T13:23:36Z posterdati-bsd: may I unset those variables using .sbclrc?
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2015-03-20T13:36:52Z oleo: hello :)
2015-03-20T13:37:10Z oleo: anyone got an answer to my question from yesterday ?
2015-03-20T13:37:58Z dlowe: common-lisp.net's gitlab is looking pretty nice. I might move from github.
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2015-03-20T13:43:26Z ehu: Xach: How bad is the fallout of the gitlab migration?
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2015-03-20T13:43:44Z ehu: (even though I tried my best not to have any)
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2015-03-20T13:46:41Z Xach: ehu: I'm going to check right now.
2015-03-20T13:46:57Z ehu: thanks.
2015-03-20T13:47:37Z ehu: have to reboot. back in a sec.
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2015-03-20T13:56:37Z drmeister: When compiling the Clasp Common Lisp source code with Cleavir/Clasp I have 84 source files to compile.
2015-03-20T13:57:18Z drmeister: It's pretty slow because I'm running the Cleavir/Clasp compiler that has been compiled with my bootstrapping compiler that doesn't generate optimized code.
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2015-03-20T13:57:53Z drmeister: I don't need to compile the files in sequence because everything is already loaded into the image (macros, defparameters, defvars etc).
2015-03-20T13:58:17Z drmeister: There's no reason I couldn't fork 8 processes and compile the whole thing in parallel chunks is there?
2015-03-20T13:58:29Z dlowe: using more than one thread?
2015-03-20T13:58:40Z drmeister: Sure.
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2015-03-20T13:58:58Z drmeister: I don't have threads yet.   I'd use "fork".
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2015-03-20T13:59:01Z dlowe: I mean, if you're using more than one thread, you're going to be unhappy with forking but not execing.
2015-03-20T13:59:19Z drmeister: I don't follow.
2015-03-20T13:59:27Z jackdaniel: forks are heavier
2015-03-20T13:59:32Z jackdaniel: they copy memory on demand
2015-03-20T13:59:37Z dlowe: well, your original process doesn't have threads, so never mind :)
2015-03-20T13:59:41Z Shinmera: Wouldn't potential compile-time side-effects also cause instability when multithreading?
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2015-03-20T14:02:03Z Xach: ehu: If I have been using git://common-lisp.net/<something>, can I substitute https for git or are there more extensive changes?
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2015-03-20T14:02:35Z drmeister: But all the compile-time side-effects should have already happened since I'm compiling the same source that is running in the image.    This is actually what I'm worried about - I might be missing some compile-time side-effect doing it in parallel.
2015-03-20T14:02:50Z jackdaniel: Xach: it is enough
2015-03-20T14:03:15Z jackdaniel: et least for gitlab.com
2015-03-20T14:03:19Z jackdaniel: s/et/at/
2015-03-20T14:03:51Z Xach: jackdaniel: Does that apply to common-lisp.net too?
2015-03-20T14:03:55Z Shinmera: drmeister: They have happened once, but they will happen again.
2015-03-20T14:04:15Z Shinmera: drmeister: And this happening again will cause instability if things aren't properly managed.
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2015-03-20T14:05:07Z jackdaniel: Xach: thats why I added last sentence - I would be suprised if not, but don't know
2015-03-20T14:05:23Z dlowe: Xach: seems like you might need to do https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ for proper dispatching
2015-03-20T14:05:26Z Xach: jackdaniel: Ok. ehu knows for sure.
2015-03-20T14:05:46Z drmeister: Right - "All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again."
2015-03-20T14:06:27Z Shinmera: drmeister: I don't know what your specific code does, but a macro might muck about with a globally accessible variable for a while. If something else needs to access that during that time, you'll get funny results.
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2015-03-20T14:07:05Z Shinmera: Or a compile-toplevel eval-when too of course.
2015-03-20T14:07:39Z Shinmera: I'd hold off on fancy things like parallel builds until you have stuff actually proven to work correctly.
2015-03-20T14:07:50Z Shinmera: For some acceptably feasible values of 'proven'
2015-03-20T14:08:03Z drmeister: Got it.
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2015-03-20T14:09:04Z drmeister: Once I finish writing my halting-problem solver in JavaScript - this will be easy.
2015-03-20T14:09:23Z Shinmera: Something like that should be done in Ada :^)
2015-03-20T14:10:16Z drmeister: Or C-macros
2015-03-20T14:12:20Z drmeister: The Clasp Common Lisp source files kind of break into four segments - I could probably get 4 parallel compilations going without too much trouble.
2015-03-20T14:12:53Z drmeister is idly musing while multiple compilations proceed in the background.
2015-03-20T14:13:34Z Xach: oh, there's a thing to rewrite
2015-03-20T14:13:43Z drmeister: I'm compiling, blowing out the stack, converting recursive traversals in Cleavir/Clasp to iterative ones, rinse-lather-repeat.
2015-03-20T14:14:27Z drmeister: I hope to compile CLOS today - then I can compile Cleavir/Clasp with Cleavir/Clasp.
2015-03-20T14:14:49Z ehu: Xach: the paths you were using include public_html?
2015-03-20T14:15:12Z Xach: ehu: I don't think so. I don't see any ~
2015-03-20T14:15:21Z ehu: git://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/public_html/cmucl.git ?
2015-03-20T14:15:29Z Xach: ehu: That is not a quicklisp project.
2015-03-20T14:15:32Z ehu: ok.
2015-03-20T14:15:34Z ehu: cffi?
2015-03-20T14:16:02Z Xach: ehu: git://common-lisp.net/projects/alexandria/alexandria.git, git://common-lisp.net/projects/clfswm/clfswm.git, etc.
2015-03-20T14:16:10Z ehu: ok.
2015-03-20T14:16:18Z Xach: git://common-lisp.net/users/frideau/meta.git
2015-03-20T14:16:21Z Xach: those kinds of thins.
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2015-03-20T14:16:52Z ehu: then I expect replacing git with https:// should work; Apache's redirects should redirect Git to the gitlab subdomain
2015-03-20T14:17:18Z Xach: https://common-lisp.net/projects/alexandria/alexandria.git does not do that
2015-03-20T14:17:26Z Xach: The requested URL /projects/alexandria/alexandria.git was not found on this server.
2015-03-20T14:18:17Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/alexandria.git
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2015-03-20T14:18:27Z ehu: ok. reproduced. looking into that.
2015-03-20T14:18:39Z LiamH: ehu: The gitlab cffi is very out of date. Current activity is on github. I'm not sure what luis plans wrt cl.net/gitlab.
2015-03-20T14:18:55Z Xach: alexandria! alexandria! alexandria!
2015-03-20T14:19:03Z jackdaniel: is on fire? ;)
2015-03-20T14:19:12Z ehu: jackdaniel: too many alexandria's
2015-03-20T14:19:15Z jackdaniel: sorry, cut off last alexandria/
2015-03-20T14:19:17Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-03-20T14:19:25Z jackdaniel: mixed copy/paste and manual editing
2015-03-20T14:19:41Z ehu: LiamH: ok. you have a gitlab login? and access to he cffi project?
2015-03-20T14:19:48Z LiamH: Yes
2015-03-20T14:19:48Z ehu: if so, you can delete if you want.
2015-03-20T14:20:03Z ehu: (I'd like to start maintaining a mirror then though)
2015-03-20T14:20:16Z LiamH: How do we set up a mirror?
2015-03-20T14:20:26Z jackdaniel: LiamH: when next cffi release is planned?
2015-03-20T14:20:39Z ehu: LiamH: by asking me :-) I arrange for the cron jobs to be set up and monitored.
2015-03-20T14:20:40Z LiamH: jackdaniel: I don't do releases.
2015-03-20T14:21:09Z LiamH: I'd like to defer to luis on what's to be done with cffi.
2015-03-20T14:21:58Z ehu: Xach: I see the problem with Alexandria: it was never available as http repository.
2015-03-20T14:22:42Z ehu: Xach: if I start rewriting the /project/alexandria/alexandria.git path, i'm starting to rewrite a path that never existed.
2015-03-20T14:22:44Z Xach: ehu: oh, ok. it is both first on the list and a very popular project, so i figured it was a good test case. i'll try the others.
2015-03-20T14:23:03Z Xach: ehu: that sounds fine to me.
2015-03-20T14:23:22Z ehu: ok. then I'll start rewriting that path.
2015-03-20T14:23:40Z Xach will update gitorious stuff today too
2015-03-20T14:23:53Z ehu: gitorious is closing down.
2015-03-20T14:24:09Z Xach: I still want to be able to pull from them until that time.
2015-03-20T14:24:17Z Xach: When it's gone, I'll update again.
2015-03-20T14:24:56Z Cymew: gitorious is closing down? Interesting that I learn of that today when I learn of the existance of gitlab
2015-03-20T14:25:12Z ehu: Cymew: they were acquired by GitLab
2015-03-20T14:25:34Z jackdaniel: gitlab has import projects feature, but it kinda sucks, since you have to move wiki manually
2015-03-20T14:25:44Z jackdaniel: and markdown is semi-compatible
2015-03-20T14:26:05Z ehu: Xach: alexandria rewriting should be in place.
2015-03-20T14:26:16Z Xach: ehu: how about https://common-lisp.net/users/frideau/package-renaming.git?
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2015-03-20T14:26:37Z Cymew: ehu: I see. thankx
2015-03-20T14:26:45Z ehu: jackdaniel: you're talking gitorious import to gitlab?
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2015-03-20T14:27:18Z jackdaniel: ehu: yes, at least on gitlab.com (never build gitlab locally)
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2015-03-20T14:27:39Z jackdaniel: s/never/didn't/
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2015-03-20T14:29:14Z ehu: Xach: for some reason, frideau's git repositories have not been completely imported.
2015-03-20T14:29:28Z ehu: however, there's no rewriting in place for it either.
2015-03-20T14:29:32Z ehu: I'll research.
2015-03-20T14:29:34Z Xach: ehu: https://common-lisp.net/projects/new-op/new-op.git ?
2015-03-20T14:29:44Z Xach is batting 0 for 3 so far
2015-03-20T14:31:02Z ehu: new-op always was under https://common-lisp.net/project/new-op/git/new-op.git
2015-03-20T14:31:11Z ehu: and that's what's being redirected
2015-03-20T14:31:51Z ehu: (you seem to use /projectS which will bat any to nil, because the plural form isn't in the http space)
2015-03-20T14:32:06Z Xach: The git:// url worked
2015-03-20T14:32:52Z ehu: yea. but the git protocol doesn't support URL rewriting.
2015-03-20T14:33:06Z ehu: nor does GitLab support git://
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2015-03-20T14:34:13Z Xach: Ok, it seems like a change from "git" to "https" will probably only work for a few specific projects, then.
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2015-03-20T14:34:50Z Xach: No git:// url used /project/
2015-03-20T14:35:16Z Xach: they were all either /projects/ or fare's stuff
2015-03-20T14:36:05Z ehu: ok. importing fare's stuff now.
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2015-03-20T14:37:26Z ehu: I'm sorry about that. it's all become a bit of a mess; I'm running into that now.
2015-03-20T14:37:34Z ehu: and unfortunately, you are with me.
2015-03-20T14:37:50Z Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146391 -- this is the list from which i'm working
2015-03-20T14:38:03Z Xach: you can strike slime from it, i already fixed that. problem on my end.
2015-03-20T14:38:24Z ehu: ok. you want me to provide you with the right urls for each of those?
2015-03-20T14:38:39Z ehu: I can probably do that pretty quickly.
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2015-03-20T14:39:27Z Xach: is there a rewrite rule or rules i could apply to get the right URLs?
2015-03-20T14:39:36Z Xach: some sed fun?
2015-03-20T14:39:49Z ehu: yep. I was about to do that.
2015-03-20T14:40:04Z ehu: the base URL is https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/
2015-03-20T14:40:08Z ehu: then comes the namespace
2015-03-20T14:40:17Z ehu: which is either a username or a project name
2015-03-20T14:40:24Z clintm: esc-x replace-string!
2015-03-20T14:40:37Z ehu: then comes the repository name followed by the .git extension.
2015-03-20T14:41:05Z ehu: git://common-lisp.net/users/frideau/exscribe.git --> https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/frideau/exscribe.git
2015-03-20T14:41:31Z ehu: are you working on that now? Or should I start to do that?
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2015-03-20T14:46:57Z Xach: who? what?
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2015-03-20T14:56:37Z ehu: Xach: are you working on sed-manipulating the urls in the list on lisppaste?
2015-03-20T14:56:42Z ehu: Xach: or should I?
2015-03-20T14:56:57Z ehu: I don't mind, but I'd rather not do work you already did
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2015-03-20T14:58:01Z Xach: I'm going to do it in Lisp. I'll do it.
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2015-03-20T14:59:50Z ehu: ok.
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2015-03-20T15:04:03Z fe[nl]ix_: Xach: did you ever use the repositories under common-lisp.net/project/mirror ?
2015-03-20T15:04:27Z fe[nl]ix_: I no longer have any use for them and I'd like to remove them all
2015-03-20T15:04:55Z Xach: fe[nl]ix_: no
2015-03-20T15:05:09Z fe[nl]ix_: good
2015-03-20T15:05:30Z fe[nl]ix_: ehu: does gitlab have builtin support for mirrors ?
2015-03-20T15:05:54Z ehu: fe[nl]ix: no, unfortunately not. but setting up mirrors is easy enough.
2015-03-20T15:06:14Z ehu: fe[nl]ix: you want to run a different set of mirrors?
2015-03-20T15:06:21Z fe[nl]ix_: for example ?
2015-03-20T15:06:32Z fe[nl]ix_: I'd like to simply mirror my projects
2015-03-20T15:06:37Z ehu: ok.
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2015-03-20T15:07:22Z fe[nl]ix_: but git mirroring is not that simple, unless you have a very recent git
2015-03-20T15:07:26Z ehu: there's a project that I'll be looking at for installation on gitlab.common-lisp.net: https://github.com/samrocketman/gitlab-mirrors
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2015-03-20T15:11:09Z Xach: ehu: i do actually use some /project/ URLs, but I didn't notice because they worked fine.
2015-03-20T15:11:17Z Xach: good show on that front!
2015-03-20T15:11:52Z ehu: thanks!
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2015-03-20T15:12:12Z ehu: how many projects do you get from common-lisp.net?
2015-03-20T15:12:39Z ehu: because the fallout looked big.
2015-03-20T15:12:55Z Xach: 134
2015-03-20T15:13:11Z ehu: ok. so, the fallout was "only" ~30% (ouch)
2015-03-20T15:13:19Z ehu: Xach: Now I have the position that I want to be in, in order to start phasing out the old CVS repositories.
2015-03-20T15:13:43Z Xach: ehu: 38 projects use git.
2015-03-20T15:13:51Z ehu: ugh.
2015-03-20T15:13:54Z Xach: the rest uses http, darcs, cvs, svn, and mercurial
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2015-03-20T15:13:59Z ehu: nearly 100% fallout
2015-03-20T15:14:06Z Xach: 3 worked fine!
2015-03-20T15:14:20Z ehu: unfortunately, I can't do anything about the fact that each and one of those (CVS repos) will need their URL edited.
2015-03-20T15:14:22Z Xach is looking forward to cvs going away
2015-03-20T15:14:24Z ehu: heh.
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2015-03-20T15:16:12Z ehu: so do I, actually.
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2015-03-20T15:16:55Z ehu: I was even glad to move to Gitlab, because not all git repositories were technically completely sound (repositories in repositories, anyone?)
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2015-03-20T15:17:11Z ehu: the migration allowed me to clean that up.
2015-03-20T15:17:18Z foom: git mirroring isn't simple?
2015-03-20T15:17:27Z ehu: foom: yes it is.
2015-03-20T15:17:31Z ehu: it's just not built-in
2015-03-20T15:17:36Z foom: git clone --mirror"?
2015-03-20T15:17:37Z ehu made copies of the originals
2015-03-20T15:17:49Z ehu: foom: not built into GitLab.
2015-03-20T15:18:10Z foom: Oh, you mean it can't watch a remote repo itself
2015-03-20T15:18:31Z foom: fe[nl]ix said it wasn't simple unless you have a "very recent git" though
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2015-03-20T15:26:22Z sebboh: Quicklisp emits the names of packages that I quickload on stdout.  Is there already some feature that allows me to inhibit this?
2015-03-20T15:26:36Z Xach: sebboh: (ql:quickload ... :silent t)
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2015-03-20T15:26:46Z sebboh: Perfect.
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2015-03-20T15:35:55Z ehu: foom: does one update a git mirror using 'git remote update' or with 'git fetch'?
2015-03-20T15:38:22Z dlowe: 'git fetch', usually. 'git remote update' is still there for historical reasons
2015-03-20T15:39:28Z dlowe: though you can update a configured group of remotes using 'git remote update'
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2015-03-20T15:40:00Z foom: I didn't even know "git remote update" was a thing.
2015-03-20T15:40:24Z dlowe: it's kind of a niche feature.
2015-03-20T15:42:12Z foom: Anyways, I use "git fetch --prune"
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2015-03-20T15:42:41Z dlowe: 'git remote prune' is there too, with again, the ability to prune a group
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2015-03-20T15:53:03Z Xach: ehu: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/commit/800196e40f1c1f990b3c9c447b499c9a1a4f2696 has done the trick for me.
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2015-03-20T16:00:47Z emaczen: When printing a 2 dimensional array, how can I specify the width of each cell? I would like it to be 2 spaces
2015-03-20T16:01:10Z ehu: Xach: thanks for the update. looks good.
2015-03-20T16:01:51Z ehu: dlowe: ok. in the mirroring case, I hope/expect to be updating from exactly one upstream (canonical) source.
2015-03-20T16:01:58Z ehu: fetch, it is then.
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2015-03-20T16:20:31Z sebboh: emaczen: what about walking it yourself and using (format ...) ?
2015-03-20T16:21:29Z sebboh: (format ...) has great features for controling exactly how many spaces appear.
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2015-03-20T16:42:10Z jasom: s/great/so complete and non-mnemonic that I have to look it up each time, even for the most basic stuff/
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2015-03-20T16:43:20Z _death: jasom: use OUT :)
2015-03-20T16:44:20Z sebboh: jasom, well yes, there's that. :)  I am *currently* reading the docs. Which inexplicably aren't on one page in a table. :P
2015-03-20T16:44:42Z sebboh: I have memorized ~A and ~@ :P
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2015-03-20T16:46:10Z jasom: I've memorised ~/
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2015-03-20T16:48:55Z jasom: which actually reminds me, you can convert the array to a list of lists and use pprint-tabular on each sublist
2015-03-20T16:49:01Z dlowe: I'm starting to think that for most cases, cl-interpol is the way to go
2015-03-20T16:49:05Z sebboh: ...and the response in my head is "wtf is ~/", even though the docs are on screen, because, no table of each ~ escape. :/
2015-03-20T16:49:12Z _death: string interpolation is disgusting
2015-03-20T16:49:13Z nyef: clhs ~/
2015-03-20T16:49:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm
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2015-03-20T16:50:35Z sebboh: emaczen: (dotimes (x 4) (dotimes (y 4) (format T "~5@A" (aref #2A((123 0 0 0) (0 456 0 0) (0 0 789 0) (0 0 0 -1)) x y)))(terpri))
2015-03-20T16:50:35Z jasom: I really like ~/ for when I need to print certain values with escaping and/or sanitation, because a ~A where I expect ~/foo::escape/ really stands out
2015-03-20T16:50:45Z sebboh: I used 5 spaces instead of 2 as you requested.
2015-03-20T16:51:09Z Zhivago: That sentence could really do with a comma.
2015-03-20T16:51:45Z sebboh: s/ instead/, instead/
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2015-03-20T16:54:33Z sebboh: _death: where/what is OUT?
2015-03-20T16:54:48Z _death: sebboh: https://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/out.lisp
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2015-03-20T16:56:58Z jasom: _death: but can it print roman numerals?
2015-03-20T16:56:59Z _death: sebboh: ~5@A -> (:a x :width 5 :align :right)
2015-03-20T16:57:23Z _death: jasom: (out (:r 1234 :roman))
2015-03-20T16:57:35Z sebboh: Well done, _death.
2015-03-20T16:57:59Z sebboh: s/done/played/ ;;minor edit
2015-03-20T16:58:16Z jasom should write a "format string to english" converter
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2015-03-20T16:59:12Z sebboh: Surely there's some cl system that will programmatically run a system like OUT backwards, jasom? :)
2015-03-20T17:00:00Z _death: sebboh: these operators expand to format strings..
2015-03-20T17:00:28Z _death: sebboh: although there are operators that don't.. for example :h which is used to print hash tables
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2015-03-20T17:01:29Z jasom: _death: oh neat, does it iterate over the key/value pairs similar to ~{ ?
2015-03-20T17:01:29Z _death: sebboh: maybe you're talking about format-string -> out?.. suppose could be fun
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2015-03-20T17:02:25Z sebboh: _death, I kind of am, but my joke was about a hypothetical function(s) that can take your library (system?) itself and produce a new function that performs format-string -> out.
2015-03-20T17:03:09Z sebboh: (run-it-backwards ...)
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2015-03-20T17:04:02Z Bicyclidine: (macroexpand-1 '(formatter [format-string])) gives you mildly comprehensible output in terms of pretty printer functions
2015-03-20T17:04:16Z sebboh: Back in reality, how can I tell just by looking at the repo for a CL project if I'm likely to find it in existing quicklisp repos?
2015-03-20T17:04:16Z _death: jasom: a bit different.. (out (:h some-hash-table (k v :separator #\Newline) k " -> " v))
2015-03-20T17:04:45Z Bicyclidine: sebboh: well, you can do (ql:system-apropos name)
2015-03-20T17:04:46Z jasom: ah
2015-03-20T17:05:03Z dlowe: We need a "Quickload me!" badge for libraries
2015-03-20T17:05:44Z jasom: sebboh: if it has instructions for asdf-install, then it's probably not in quicklisp; otherwise I figure it is :P
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2015-03-20T17:09:36Z sebboh: Bicyclidine: (macroexpand-1 '(formatter "~5@A")) gives... something I'm not quite sure how to read.
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2015-03-20T17:13:00Z Bicyclidine: sebboh: formatter returns a formatter function, which takes a stream and the format arguments. on my system its main action is calling (sb-format::format-princ stream [first argument to format] nil t 5 1 0 #\Space), which isn't that helpful but is at least a lisp function.
2015-03-20T17:13:35Z sebboh: ...That's the structure of a "formatter" that was created according to the shape described by "~5@A"?  And formatters are used internally by "format"?  And I can pass ... Hah, I'm slow.  Yep, cool, thanks!  I like macroexpand-1. :)
2015-03-20T17:14:10Z Bicyclidine: they're not internally used by format, necessarily, but format is going to do about the same actions.
2015-03-20T17:14:20Z sebboh: Noted.
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2015-03-20T17:14:54Z Bicyclidine: the idea of formatter is that you have a compile-time constant format string, so you get it interpreted at compile time instead of iterating through it at runtime.
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2015-03-20T17:15:17Z Bicyclidine: (there's usually a compiler macro or whatever on FORMAT to do about the same thing, though, possibly in terms of FORMATTER)
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2015-03-20T17:16:08Z _death: hmm I should add my python-struct hack (which uses strings, meh.. but it's nice for binary spelunking) to constantia
2015-03-20T17:16:33Z Bicyclidine: format is actually defined so you can do stuff like (format nil (lambda (stream ...) ...) ...), which i have seen in use i think one time ever
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2015-03-20T17:18:55Z _death: hmm also need to switch to the new package-inferred-systems style
2015-03-20T17:18:58Z sebboh: Bicyclidine: to define your format string dynamically?  ... based on some input from a stream.  Okay.
2015-03-20T17:19:26Z Bicyclidine: sebboh: no, if you do (format s some-function ...) it basically does (funcall some-function s ...)
2015-03-20T17:20:23Z sebboh: Is that s/s/T s/ or not?
2015-03-20T17:20:33Z Bicyclidine: this is so that you can do (format s (formatter string) ...), maybe.
2015-03-20T17:20:41Z Bicyclidine: i am not sure which s you want to replace
2015-03-20T17:21:00Z sebboh: The first, only, since I didn't pass a g argument to s/// :)
2015-03-20T17:21:00Z Bicyclidine: it works with any stream
2015-03-20T17:21:25Z Bicyclidine: well that would give you "T sebboh:[...]" and i don't know what to do with that! sed sure is weird
2015-03-20T17:21:25Z sebboh: Well, excluding the s in sebboh, dang it.
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2015-03-20T17:23:07Z Bicyclidine: but hey, try it! (error (lambda (s a) (princ a s)) 'foo) => FOO [condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]
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2015-03-20T17:24:30Z sebboh: TIL: echo hello harold | sed s/h/b/2 ==> "hello barold"
2015-03-20T17:24:32Z Bicyclidine: actually, i guess technically you're only allowed to use functions returned by formatter. well, fuck the police.
2015-03-20T17:25:52Z sebboh: Surely the interpreter can't distinguish between a function returned by formatter and an appropriately constructed function, right?
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2015-03-20T17:26:24Z Bicyclidine: no, but there's some implementation-defined convention for how formatter functions are called.
2015-03-20T17:26:32Z sebboh: Fair enough.
2015-03-20T17:26:37Z Bicyclidine: it doesn't actually have to be funcall some-function s ... like i said.
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2015-03-20T17:26:50Z Bicyclidine: anyway, that's my super obscure standard bullshit quota for the day.
2015-03-20T17:26:55Z sebboh: I only understand 5% of what you say.
2015-03-20T17:27:01Z sebboh: Sure.
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2015-03-20T17:29:52Z sebboh: I'm just glad that my skill level with lisp has finally increased enough that I can write a little script that does some work for me like take numbers I provide via (read), do some math, and spit out the answer with some formatting.  At this rate, my CL skill level will exceed my GWBASIC skill level in a month.  (Assuming that I don't *review* gwbasic in the meantime.)
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2015-03-20T17:39:21Z loz1: hi, how can I mark code blocks in org/babel to see their names in resulting documentation?
2015-03-20T17:40:01Z guicho: I'd like to get some comments for https://github.com/guicho271828/aspectm . It is now a design phase, and the implementation is not complete. Does anyone interested in?
2015-03-20T17:40:33Z nyef: loz1: That sounds like it might be an #emacs question.
2015-03-20T17:40:54Z Xach: guicho: have you seen pcos's aspectl?
2015-03-20T17:40:55Z loz1: nyef: oh, sorry, missclicked conference ;)
2015-03-20T17:41:14Z guicho: yes, but that's fundamentally different
2015-03-20T17:41:25Z Xach: ok
2015-03-20T17:41:41Z Bicyclidine: guicho: what's t/?
2015-03-20T17:42:08Z guicho: aspectl works dynamically and with CLOS. mine is for macros.
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2015-03-20T17:43:05Z guicho: maybe even the name should be changed significantly.
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2015-03-20T17:43:46Z Bicyclidine: yeah, i was confused.
2015-03-20T17:44:01Z guicho: what t/ means?
2015-03-20T17:44:23Z Bicyclidine: you have a folder called t. i just realized it's tests, though.
2015-03-20T17:45:10Z guicho: some fukamachiware has t/ as test folder. I use the similar template-generator, so that's the reason.
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2015-03-20T17:45:40Z guicho: (all in plural)
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2015-03-20T17:57:46Z eudoxia: i use it too because i use cl-project to generate projects
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2015-03-20T18:06:21Z luis: The t/ convention comes from Perl projects doesn't it?
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2015-03-20T18:06:53Z Bicyclidine: i just asked because both src/ and t/ only had one file in them, with the same name, so i thought t/ might have been an accidental copy of some kind.
2015-03-20T18:07:27Z luis: Yeah. tests/ is probably a better name :)
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2015-03-20T19:05:05Z gabriel_laddel: I'm authoring a document on a lisp linux distribution and need examples of other similar projects that have failed such as TUNES. Would someone mind giving me a few examples?
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2015-03-20T19:05:40Z Adlai: do you count movitz as failed and/or a relevant project?
2015-03-20T19:05:48Z gabriel_laddel: ah, thanks
2015-03-20T19:05:52Z gabriel_laddel: Adlai: failed.
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2015-03-20T19:09:59Z dlowe: movitz didn't really have anything to do with linux
2015-03-20T19:11:17Z gabriel_laddel: dlowe: they're all in the same vein of wanting to opt-out of the mainstream paradigm. I've E-gold in this too...
2015-03-20T19:11:28Z gabriel_laddel: also, smalltalk, shen, oberon
2015-03-20T19:11:32Z gabriel_laddel: yalo
2015-03-20T19:12:00Z dlowe: classic Mac OS
2015-03-20T19:12:06Z dlowe: iOS
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2015-03-20T19:12:36Z dlowe: dylan on the newton
2015-03-20T19:12:44Z gabriel_laddel: ^ nice
2015-03-20T19:14:29Z Xach got to see the translucent newton in the office again yesterday
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2015-03-20T19:52:49Z jasom: templeOS
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2015-03-20T19:56:24Z sebboh: I hear that's not Linux.
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2015-03-20T19:57:24Z xinau: does anyone have got experience with f-expressions and klisp ?
2015-03-20T19:57:43Z xinau: and knows good references
2015-03-20T19:57:49Z dlowe: xinau: this channel is for common lisp. You might want to check out ##lisp
2015-03-20T19:58:17Z sebboh: You folks hear about guix GSD?  Functional package manager, scheme-based configuration (right down to /etc/passwd contains only valid s-expressions, if I understand correctly...)
2015-03-20T19:58:27Z sebboh: dlowe: I did not know that.
2015-03-20T19:58:37Z xinau: oh ok, sry thanks for your reponse
2015-03-20T19:58:45Z dlowe: xinau: no worries :)
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2015-03-20T20:12:24Z jasom: sebboh: I use nixos, but haven't tried out guix yet
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2015-03-20T20:14:44Z sebboh: jasom, I haven't tried it yet, either.  It's hard-core copyleft only...  Which is nice, but wtf no openssh? :/
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2015-03-20T20:16:54Z sebboh: Would you consider guile to be a strong lisp?  (Not that I really know what that means.)
2015-03-20T20:17:06Z dlowe: it's not common lisp *hint*
2015-03-20T20:17:32Z sebboh: I presume that's what it'd be compared to, around here... :)
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2015-03-20T20:18:17Z Shinmera: It's not compared at all; it's off-topic.
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2015-03-20T20:18:57Z Bicyclidine: programming language design already involves too much mindless intuition and underdefined terms, anyhow, no need to add to it
2015-03-20T20:19:17Z dlowe: yeah, most people here aren't really interested in hearing about other lisps, in the same manner as most java programmers don't really want to hear about C
2015-03-20T20:19:27Z jasom: sebboh: it's copyleft only, not just copyleft compatible?
2015-03-20T20:19:29Z dlowe: There's ##lisp for those discussions
2015-03-20T20:20:03Z Shinmera: I am however interested in hearing more about Mezzano. Have there been any significant enough changes on that front since froggey initially released it?
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2015-03-20T20:20:29Z Shinmera: Well, I should say announced, rather than released.
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2015-03-20T20:21:07Z Bicyclidine: nyef's been working on it, and some other clever people, so surely something has
2015-03-20T20:21:56Z Shinmera: The things I've picked up on were mostly notes about stability improvements and potential fixes for the GC problem, but I don't really know anything more specific than that, so
2015-03-20T20:23:45Z sebboh: Fine, fine, pardon me please everyone.  It was re: a previous user's query regarding non-mainstream OSes.  jasom, I don't know the details, I just know that it doesn't include some packages that I normally use.  ...In Debian I have non-free and contrib enabled, so...
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2015-03-20T20:25:17Z Bicyclidine: guix is a gnu thing, right? so they might be real strict about what makes it into repos. it's not like openssh is proprietary, though, you sure it's just that nobody's made the appropriate install information yet?
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2015-03-20T20:26:39Z Bicyclidine: okay, well, https://gitorious.org/guix/guix/source/42b001381e2d892d9c3ac68d3bf3b89c553699a2:gnu/packages/openssl.scm
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2015-03-20T20:29:39Z froggey: Shinmera: pretty much only small improvements. dynamic-extent allocations are considerably more robust, and the system can actually use large amounts of RAM now
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2015-03-20T20:30:27Z froggey: currently I'm writing an AHCI driver so I can run it on real hardware (woo!)
2015-03-20T20:31:04Z jasom: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/gnu/packages/ssh.scm#n124
2015-03-20T20:31:12Z froggey: and burtons has been improving the editor, but I haven't kept track of that
2015-03-20T20:31:30Z Bicyclidine: What constitutes a driver in Mezzano?
2015-03-20T20:33:02Z froggey: code that talks to a hardware device and exposes it to the rest of the lisp environment via some mechanism
2015-03-20T20:33:17Z sebboh: Bicyclidine, jasom: yeah, jasom's link appears to point at the most-upstream repo. (newer commits, plus linked from the project page.)
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2015-03-20T20:35:11Z Shinmera: froggey: I see. Thanks for updating me!
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2015-03-20T20:40:23Z drmeister: A tricky question about COMPILE-FILE and global variables/constants.
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2015-03-20T20:40:43Z drmeister: I'm compiling the CLOS bootstrapping code using Cleavir/Clasp
2015-03-20T20:40:48Z drmeister: It's compiling this function:
2015-03-20T20:41:44Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146399
2015-03-20T20:42:12Z drmeister: COMPILE-FILE is encountering +the-standard-class+
2015-03-20T20:42:52Z nyef: ... Which is presumably a DEFCONSTANT?
2015-03-20T20:43:01Z drmeister: The environment defines +the-standard-class+ as a constant.  But it is defined after this function is compiled.
2015-03-20T20:43:28Z drmeister: (defconstant +the-standard-class+ class)
2015-03-20T20:44:01Z Shinmera: Couldn't you substitute that for a (load-time-value (find-class 'standard-class)) ?
2015-03-20T20:44:06Z drmeister: I think if it weren't defined in the environment COMPILE-FILE would treat it like a global variable reference to be looked up with SYMBOL-VALUE.
2015-03-20T20:44:40Z nyef: I think that if it weren't defined in the environment, COMPILE-FILE would pitch a fit about an undefined variable.
2015-03-20T20:44:44Z drmeister: So my code is complaining:   In codegen-literal add support to codegen the atom type STANDARD-CLASS - value: #<COMMON-LISP:STANDARD-CLASS COMMON-LISP:STANDARD-CLASS @0x110509e18>
2015-03-20T20:45:04Z drmeister: nyef, Shinmera - thanks for responding - I'm reading what you said.
2015-03-20T20:45:33Z Shinmera: I mean substituting the +the-standard-class+ reference in find-slot-definition for the l-t-v form.
2015-03-20T20:45:43Z drmeister: nyef: My COMPILE-FILE wouldn't have a fit - it just assumes it's a global binding.
2015-03-20T20:45:53Z drmeister: I don't know what ECL does - this is ECL code.
2015-03-20T20:46:00Z froggey: this sounds very similar to what closette does (the CLOS implementation I'm using), except that the-standard-class is a defvar, not a defconstant
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2015-03-20T20:46:42Z drmeister: I think if I changed it to DEFVAR this problem would go away.   beach, bike and I had a conversation about this about a week or so ago.
2015-03-20T20:46:59Z nyef: Right, if you have a DEFCONSTANT of an instance, the class needs to have a MAKE-LOAD-FORM method defined, so using the form that it would generate should suffice...
2015-03-20T20:47:16Z nyef: IIRC, ECL CLOS is based on CLOSette.
2015-03-20T20:47:29Z drmeister: nyef: I think so - but there are no make-load-forms defined at this point - it is early in the bootstrapping process.
2015-03-20T20:47:45Z Bicyclidine: drmeister's compilation of constants is broken, or at least was a week ago, so that make-load-form doesn't even happen.
2015-03-20T20:47:53Z nyef: It may also be that this file was never intended to be compiled.
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2015-03-20T20:49:10Z drmeister: nyef: It's part of the ECL source code.
2015-03-20T20:49:17Z drmeister: std-slot-value.lsp
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2015-03-20T20:51:11Z drmeister: nyef: Although you raise a very good point - I had to mess with the CLOS bootstrapping code to get it to work.   Cleavir's correct handling of CL semantics may be dredging up the sins of my past.
2015-03-20T20:52:35Z drmeister: There is a src;clos;hierarchy.lsp file that used to be only loaded at (:execute and :compile-toplevel) and now I added :load-toplevel   - I may need to look at this carefully and do some repair.
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2015-03-20T20:53:12Z Shinmera: I still don't see why a constant is even necessary for this.
2015-03-20T20:53:16Z nyef: Did I mention recently that CLOS bootstrapping is something that I don't understand in the least, and that seems the hardest aspect of building a cross compiler?
2015-03-20T20:54:00Z nyef: Shinmera: The identity of the class STANDARD-CLASS should never change. That given, having it as a constant means skipping the lookup to see if it HAS changed.
2015-03-20T20:54:22Z Shinmera: nyef: I mean in the offending function.
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2015-03-20T20:54:41Z Shinmera: nyef: Substituting the constant reference for (load-time-value (find-class 'standard-class)) should work just fine, no?
2015-03-20T20:54:43Z drmeister: Shinmera: I don't either
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2015-03-20T20:55:16Z nyef: Shinmera: Yes, in theory.
2015-03-20T20:55:35Z nyef: Shinmera: And we've both suggested it now.
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2015-03-20T20:57:28Z Shinmera: Because hacks have never done any harm: You could Define a symbol-macro on +the-standard-class+ that inserts the l-t-v form for you :^)
2015-03-20T20:58:01Z nyef: That's more than a touch sketchy.
2015-03-20T20:58:09Z drmeister: I'll give l-t-v a whirl. I'm not ignoring your thoughtful advice - I'm using this problem to get deeper insight into what is going on.
2015-03-20T20:58:14Z Shinmera: nyef: It was meant as a joke
2015-03-20T20:58:42Z Bicyclidine: i suggested that a week ago, more seriously
2015-03-20T20:59:59Z Shinmera: Reading all of #lisp every day does mean I won't end up remembering everything clearly, unfortunately.
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2015-03-20T21:00:41Z Bicyclidine: well, i mean, i'm curious about the sketchiness in detail. in drmeister's case the obvious would be that the values probably wouldn't be coalesced
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2015-03-20T21:01:31Z Shinmera: I suppose a constant could also provide valuable type information, while a L-T-V by itself cannot.
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2015-03-20T21:02:38Z Shinmera: And, well, going further, having a L-T-V means you potentially can't eliminate certain code paths that you could eliminate if you knew the constant at compile-time.
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2015-03-20T21:03:48Z Bicyclidine: Like what? (again, this is all curiosity)
2015-03-20T21:04:11Z Shinmera: (defconstant +false+ NIL) (if +false+ bla bla)
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2015-03-20T21:04:29Z Shinmera: The compiler could eliminate that if it knows the value of +false+, right?
2015-03-20T21:04:31Z Bicyclidine: ...well, i guess it would make inference easier.
2015-03-20T21:05:28Z Shinmera: In the case of a l-t-v you cannot eliminate that code path at compile time.
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2015-03-20T21:06:04Z Bicyclidine: You can't? I thought it would just be harder.
2015-03-20T21:07:19Z nyef: You'd have to derive the type of the result of the L-T-V, or explicitly declare it.
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2015-03-20T21:07:29Z Shinmera: (defconstant +foo+ (read)) (if +foo+) vs. (if (load-time-value (read)))
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2015-03-20T21:08:00Z Shinmera: It is certainly possible to infer it in some cases, but not in all by far.
2015-03-20T21:09:18Z Bicyclidine: eheh, i was thinking of the actual situation where the value is actually constant in the informal sense, i suppose
2015-03-20T21:10:15Z Shinmera: Another thing is that, well, an l-t-v form could evaluate to two different things at load and compile time.
2015-03-20T21:10:35Z Shinmera: Whereas the constant only depends on compile-time.
2015-03-20T21:11:13Z Shinmera: That is, if I understood the situation correctly. Things are a bit sketchy in my head right now.
2015-03-20T21:14:11Z drmeister: Sorry - I had to run - reading.
2015-03-20T21:15:12Z drmeister: Got it - I'll follow the l-t-v suggestion and proceed from there.
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2015-03-20T21:17:52Z drmeister: I'm amazed that I got this to work when I went through this the first time.  I was pretty clueless.
2015-03-20T21:18:19Z Shinmera: Sometimes taking things straight and not overthinking them helps.
2015-03-20T21:18:21Z drmeister: If it weren't for bike and the rest of you folks - I wouldn't have had a chance.
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2015-03-20T21:22:33Z Shinmera: Glad to contribute.
2015-03-20T21:22:40Z drmeister: It's compiling through now using (load-time-value (find-class 'clos:standard-class)) etc.
2015-03-20T21:23:32Z drmeister: Ok - next problem - for this one I'll need beach's help - it's a Cleavir thing.
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2015-03-20T21:26:41Z jasom: The next talk beach gives on cleavir should be called "Meet Cleavir"
2015-03-20T21:26:49Z drmeister: Thanks - gotta run to catch a train.
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2015-03-20T21:32:32Z clintm: drmeister: you could follow that up with "Leave it to Cleavir"
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2015-03-20T21:33:46Z nyef: Cleaver puns aside...
2015-03-20T21:34:37Z nyef: Maybe even a mention of a "Sufficiently Cleaver Compiler"?
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2015-03-20T21:49:12Z ehu: bah. bad timing. the day we celebrate gitlab go-live, I have to upgrade gitlab because of an OpenSSL security fix.
2015-03-20T21:49:37Z Shinmera: Sysop work is always badly timed.
2015-03-20T21:49:48Z ehu: Shinmera: :-)
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2015-03-20T21:50:51Z ehu: Shinmera: it's not even about my availability; it's more that the shire does peel off when you announce a great release and 10 hours later the new software is found to contain a number of CVE reported bugs.
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2015-03-20T21:55:45Z nyef: I am learning to dislike SSL at this point.
2015-03-20T21:55:51Z nyef: Too many security holes.
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2015-03-20T21:56:18Z emaczen: sebboh: Thanks! I got distracted :)
2015-03-20T21:56:32Z nyef: Too many backwards-compatibility requirements (oh, we can't disable these cypher suites, they're the only ones that are supported on android whatever)...
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2015-03-20T21:57:10Z jasom: nyef: ultimately the browsers can't turn off insecure suites because nobody wants to be the only browser that can't get to website X
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2015-03-20T21:58:45Z jasom: servers *have* been rapidly removing insecure ciphers now that there are exploits in the wild (my phone won't connect to most https sites anymore)
2015-03-20T21:59:39Z jasom: I expect soon firefox will put up a warning page like for the cert mismatch when an insecure cipher or TLS version is negotiated
2015-03-20T21:59:46Z dim: nyef: there's an ocaml implementation of TLS if you want
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2015-03-20T21:59:59Z dim: I mean, as a way to stop depending on libssl
2015-03-20T22:00:28Z foom: And I'm sure it has no security issues.
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2015-03-20T22:01:04Z jasom: Ultimately TLS 1.1 is largely broken for protecting against moderatly good attackers on https due to the combination of padding being broken and the only stream cipher being RC4
2015-03-20T22:01:47Z dim: foom: any security solution is going to have security issues, by definition, right?
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2015-03-20T22:02:51Z foom: dim: no?
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2015-03-20T22:03:54Z dim: well a security solution is only valid in the scope of a specific threat model, which is not usually part of any lib, so it's dead on arrival in my limited understanding of security
2015-03-20T22:04:24Z dim: as in the goal is not to be secure, but to make it hard enough (read expensive) for the attacker that a successful attack isn't going to happen
2015-03-20T22:04:54Z dim: my understanding of security is that it's a betting game at best
2015-03-20T22:05:15Z cluck: ..and the casino always wins
2015-03-20T22:05:43Z dim: exactly, so who's the SSL casino? the NSA has been pointed at in this role I think
2015-03-20T22:05:44Z cluck ducks under the tinfoil
2015-03-20T22:06:41Z dim: well yeah, the global complot(?) theory isn't going to win us any sympathy when talking about security, and for good reasons ;-)
2015-03-20T22:06:42Z oleo: hahahaha
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2015-03-20T22:24:17Z akkad: "the nsa" is that like "the ibm" ?
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2015-03-20T22:38:30Z Excedrin: dim: I have a much more skeptical view of "security", that it's often not even about making it "expensive enough", but only about achieving compliance
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2015-03-20T22:39:03Z akkad: Excedrin: yeah. it becomes very procedural, vs using common sense.
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2015-03-20T23:13:24Z Xach: Shinmera: I'm getting a really weird error in plump in sbcl 1.2.8
2015-03-20T23:13:46Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-03-20/failure-report/plump.html
2015-03-20T23:13:49Z Xach: i have no idea
2015-03-20T23:14:01Z Shinmera: Oh dear.
2015-03-20T23:14:24Z Shinmera: It's past midnight for me, so I'll investigate tomorrow, if that's alright with you.
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2015-03-20T23:22:55Z Xach: ok
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2015-03-20T23:57:53Z afleck: in clfswm I get the error "connection failure to X11.0 server display 0: no protocol specified". anyone know how to fix it?
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