2015-03-17T00:02:22Z paradoja quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T00:02:35Z jasom: It claims that in common lisp you can use INTERN to intern an existing symbol 2015-03-17T00:03:24Z akkad: in CL? or cl.el? 2015-03-17T00:04:31Z jasom: akkad: it's a note for people familiar with Common Lisp in the elisp manual 2015-03-17T00:04:54Z _death: jasom: and? 2015-03-17T00:05:59Z jasom: _death: you can't use INTERN to intern an existing symbol; in fact it works exactly like the elisp intern, as far as I can tell (if you substitute obarray for package) 2015-03-17T00:06:12Z akkad: ah 2015-03-17T00:06:38Z jasom thought maybe intern took a string designator and that was the source of the confusion, but the hyperspec says it takes a string, so nop. 2015-03-17T00:06:52Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-03-17T00:07:11Z jasom: Common Lisp note: In Common Lisp, you can intern an existing symbol in an obarray. In Emacs Lisp, you cannot do this, because the argument to intern must be a string, not a symbol. 2015-03-17T00:07:32Z jasom: IMPORT will let you intern an existing symbol into a package, but INTERN will not. 2015-03-17T00:08:25Z jasom: So the note might be correct if they said "In Emacs Lisp, you cannot do this, because Emacs Lisp does not provide an import function" 2015-03-17T00:08:56Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:09:20Z _death: jasom: now that you give the context I see what you mean.. "intern an existing symbol" seemed strange to me, because in CL you intern a string.. but then I thought about the term "interned symbol" and thought it less strange 2015-03-17T00:09:21Z {-}grant joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:09:50Z jasom: e.g. (import (list (gensym)) *package*) 2015-03-17T00:10:53Z sol__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T00:11:00Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-17T00:12:18Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:12:47Z jasom: As crufty as elisp is, at least it's possible to safely make a package in elisp. 2015-03-17T00:12:54Z jasom: unlike common lisp 2015-03-17T00:13:30Z oGMo: safely make? 2015-03-17T00:13:41Z jasom: oGMo: as in "Won't break anybody else's code" 2015-03-17T00:13:52Z oGMo: also, when did elisp get packages heh 2015-03-17T00:14:10Z _death: (make-package (uuid)) 2015-03-17T00:14:12Z oGMo: jasom: i'm not sure you can be sure of that in any language heh 2015-03-17T00:14:18Z akkad: "packages" not namespace 2015-03-17T00:14:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T00:15:02Z jasom: _death: that's just unlikely to break anything before the heat death of the universe, not *impossible* :P; also generating the UUID is an excercise left up to the reader. 2015-03-17T00:15:11Z jasom: one doesn't always have a good source of entropy. 2015-03-17T00:15:21Z oGMo: in theory in CL you could make completely-safe pacakges with gensym'd names couldn't you? it would just be silly and next to useless 2015-03-17T00:15:36Z jasom: oGMo: nope, since package names are strings, not symbols. 2015-03-17T00:16:03Z jasom: oGMo: and yes, nearly all the problems would be solved if package names were symbols (and I prototyped this) 2015-03-17T00:16:10Z oGMo: eh 2015-03-17T00:16:32Z oGMo: so htey're strings, you can then just make your own random string generator and test if the package exists or pick a new random string 2015-03-17T00:16:54Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-17T00:17:00Z oGMo: and write code to do this at load time so it can never conflict 2015-03-17T00:17:00Z rszeno: (symbol-name (gensym)) 2015-03-17T00:17:01Z jasom: oGMo: that breaks if someone else decides to make a package with a name, and it happens to clash with your name (and is essentially what _death recommended) 2015-03-17T00:17:30Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:17:33Z jasom: rszeno: what if in the future, you load a system with a package named G735 2015-03-17T00:17:47Z oGMo: jasom: your requirement only specified breaking existing code, not all possible future code ;) 2015-03-17T00:18:04Z jasom: oGMo: I said "Won't break anybody else's code" 2015-03-17T00:18:08Z jasom: no temporal restriction 2015-03-17T00:18:18Z oGMo: nothing ever can ensure that, because i can just write a function that looks for your package and breaks it 2015-03-17T00:18:22Z rszeno: no intention to be usefull for something, :) 2015-03-17T00:18:47Z jasom: oGMo: if it weren't possible to enumerate all existing packages, then it would be safe 2015-03-17T00:18:53Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:19:12Z oGMo: jasom: then it wouldn't be CL 2015-03-17T00:19:13Z jasom: oGMo: it's not possible, for example, to portably enumerate all existing hash-tables, so this isn't that silly a restriction. 2015-03-17T00:19:41Z oGMo: jasom: this entire discussion is utter absurdity actually 2015-03-17T00:19:51Z _death: possible to portably do it, you just have to define a portability layer 2015-03-17T00:20:00Z Flammenwerfer joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:20:09Z oGMo: the problem is generally not one in practice; even cases where things actually conflict can be dealt with if you need to load them 2015-03-17T00:20:12Z jasom: oGMo: I disagree; the fact that all packages must be in a global namespace is a Bad Idea. 2015-03-17T00:20:26Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:20:35Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:20:44Z oGMo: jasom: if those packages were in their own namespace, then it would be global, unless you want local namespaces all the way down 2015-03-17T00:20:47Z jasom: it needlessly causes (admitedly fixable) problems for little-to-no benefit. 2015-03-17T00:21:18Z Flammenwerfer: Q: Is there some sort of part of the loop macro that allows me to access the previous collected item in the body? 2015-03-17T00:21:24Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T00:21:37Z oGMo: this problem does not exist in practice 2015-03-17T00:21:49Z jasom: oGMo: since I have run into it, in practice, I disagree 2015-03-17T00:21:51Z Flammenwerfer: Actually im being silly. I should just use recursion. 2015-03-17T00:22:09Z warweasle: I'm having some trouble with CFFI and SBCL working with a library. I've written a bare-bones test on another machine and my cffi works there. I tried it on my home machine and it fails horribly. Any ideas how to start troubleshooting this? 2015-03-17T00:22:13Z oGMo: jasom: and you could solve it by no other way than not using common lisp? 2015-03-17T00:22:24Z jasom: oGMo: are you actually reading what I type? 2015-03-17T00:22:31Z jasom: 17:20:46 jasom | it needlessly causes (admitedly fixable) problems for little-to-no benefit. 2015-03-17T00:22:49Z oGMo: those words are english, but they mean little 2015-03-17T00:23:03Z oGMo: and if you can fix the problem, so it isn't one _in practice_ 2015-03-17T00:23:17Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-03-17T00:23:29Z oGMo: that said i'm right on board with everyone else who wants package-local nicknames 2015-03-17T00:23:30Z jasom: oGMo: so all fixable problems aren't problems in practice? 2015-03-17T00:23:38Z bcoburn: you guys should probably agree on a definition of the words "problem" and "in practice" before continuing this 2015-03-17T00:23:50Z oGMo: bcoburn: this is #lisp, there is no agreement ever 2015-03-17T00:23:59Z bcoburn: lol 2015-03-17T00:24:08Z Flammenwerfer: someone bring me up to speed. are we having a language war or something? 2015-03-17T00:24:19Z jasom: Flammenwerfer: I doubt it since both oGMo and I like common lisp 2015-03-17T00:24:21Z beginner quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-17T00:24:46Z jasom: Though by oGMo's definition, there are no problems with C, so I don't know why he uses common lisp :P 2015-03-17T00:25:00Z oGMo: we only agree on the definition of Common Lisp! 2015-03-17T00:25:09Z Flammenwerfer: No problems with C? really? 2015-03-17T00:25:27Z jasom: well there are problems, but they *can* be fixed, so therefore they aren't problems in practice 2015-03-17T00:25:40Z oGMo: jasom: that would depend on the restrictions; "use CL instead" would be a great workaround for most C issues ;) 2015-03-17T00:26:01Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-03-17T00:26:05Z Flammenwerfer: *obligatory link to sbcl faster than c article* 2015-03-17T00:26:30Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:26:39Z jasom: oGMo: there are no problems with C that can only be solved by not using C... therefore there are no problems with C in practice 2015-03-17T00:27:16Z oGMo: jasom: solutions to package issues would be nice, symbols-as-names would be interesting, but i think you still have a global namespace problem unless you subscribe to java-like silliness (which has many issues itself) 2015-03-17T00:27:18Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:27:19Z _death: jasom: out of curiosity, what is your use case for make-package here.. I find that ever since Lisp gained strings and hash tables, there's been less need for it :) 2015-03-17T00:27:56Z jasom: And it is brain-dead that I need to specify a name for every package I create, and that name must be unique for the entire lifetime of the package. If that requirement were put on anything that was dynamically created more often than pacakges there would be a revolt 2015-03-17T00:28:09Z oGMo: and besides, you can use any naming scheme with "simple" package names as with symbols .. but that can be painful without local nicknames 2015-03-17T00:28:22Z jasom: oGMo: symbols-as-names lets you create a package with a gensym as a name. Problem solved 2015-03-17T00:28:41Z oGMo: afaict the rule is, claim it first, let others worry about future clashes 2015-03-17T00:29:15Z jasom: _death: The most common is I want to use READ without polluting an existing package 2015-03-17T00:29:17Z oGMo: jasom: that's only in theory, because gensym'd packages are useless when you're actually trying to type code 2015-03-17T00:29:17Z _death: one can always rename-package btw 2015-03-17T00:29:37Z _death: jasom: then you should have a soft-reader 2015-03-17T00:30:14Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:30:21Z oGMo: _death: that's the easy, day-to-day solution, yes ;) 2015-03-17T00:30:23Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-03-17T00:30:52Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:31:09Z jasom: _death: so I need to use a complete re-implementation of something that already exists due to a design decision I already disagree with for other reasons 2015-03-17T00:31:45Z johann joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:32:13Z jasom: I'm not saying it's terrible, a reason to abandon common lisp, or that it's even the single worst design decision in the spec. Just that it's stupid, and there is a way that is both simpler and better. 2015-03-17T00:32:31Z _death: jasom: a portable reader that's customizable in that regard as well as some others would be really great.. maybe pick up pjb's and improve 2015-03-17T00:32:43Z jasom: _death: pjb has licensing issues for a lot of lispers 2015-03-17T00:32:49Z jasom: something MIT/X11 would be better 2015-03-17T00:33:07Z _death: there are lots of open-sauce readers out there :) 2015-03-17T00:33:13Z jasom: better in the sense that more lispers would use it; I'm not going to start a license flame war now too. 2015-03-17T00:33:25Z johann quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T00:33:38Z johann joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:33:44Z rszeno quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T00:35:19Z _death: jasom: I note that your problem can actually be viewed as a reader problem, and not a package system problem 2015-03-17T00:35:20Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T00:35:24Z jasom: and again, I agree a customized reader would be great! Lack of customization in certain parts of the standard reader is my single biggest non-feature complaint about the language 2015-03-17T00:35:41Z jasom: _death: in CL the two are very closely coupled 2015-03-17T00:35:55Z C6248 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:36:22Z jasom: But there is no reason to require every package to have a unique string for a name, when it is possible to do things with packages without ever specifying the name 2015-03-17T00:36:53Z jasom: And I don't see how it's hard to argue otherwise since we don't require unique string IDs for any other type in lisp. 2015-03-17T00:37:00Z jasom: s/hard/possible/ 2015-03-17T00:37:19Z jasom: or s/I don't see how// 2015-03-17T00:37:30Z jasom: and I have to go to dinner 2015-03-17T00:38:14Z jasom: actually no I don't have to go to dinner; just realized it's a Monday 2015-03-17T00:38:30Z _death: no dinners on monday? 2015-03-17T00:38:56Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T00:40:34Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-03-17T00:40:44Z jasom: late dinner 2015-03-17T00:41:06Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:41:23Z Flammenwerfer: What are you talking about? It's tuesday morning. 2015-03-17T00:41:59Z jasom: Flammenwerfer: only if you're in the part of the world where people are wrong about what time it is. 2015-03-17T00:42:05Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T00:42:08Z jasom ducks 2015-03-17T00:43:05Z jasom: though with a name like Flammenwerfer, I suppose you're always up for a flame war. 2015-03-17T00:44:09Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:44:37Z JohnD joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:44:40Z Flammenwerfer: jasom: I'm from the future. WE have lasers and stuff. 2015-03-17T00:44:59Z JohnD left #lisp 2015-03-17T00:45:55Z Flammenwerfer: jasom: Sort of, though I didn't think of that when I thought of the name. it's just what popped into my head because i've been reading about military history 2015-03-17T00:47:15Z C6248 quit 2015-03-17T00:48:12Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:48:22Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-03-17T00:48:41Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:49:23Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:50:27Z tsumetai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-17T00:51:33Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T00:52:40Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:56:07Z xinau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T00:56:57Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-03-17T00:57:06Z Flammenwerfer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-03-17T01:03:23Z solrize joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:03:59Z fikusz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T01:04:22Z solrize: any old time lispers here? i'm wondering how much memory it took to write interesting lisp progrrams back in the maclisp era 2015-03-17T01:05:27Z pnpuff quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-03-17T01:05:56Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:06:58Z Xach: solrize: no 2015-03-17T01:07:21Z JohnD joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:07:36Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-17T01:09:06Z JohnD left #lisp 2015-03-17T01:09:25Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Weird in coding now, or make love, only two things push me away from IRC.) 2015-03-17T01:09:35Z jasom: solrize: The garbage collector papers from the 70s talk about "trying to keep as much in core as possible" so I assume they had swap of some sort. 2015-03-17T01:10:06Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-03-17T01:10:44Z Zhivago: I guess SHRDLU would be an interesting lisp program from that era? 2015-03-17T01:11:21Z jasom: solrize: but the original pdp-11 had 8k of core 2015-03-17T01:11:30Z solrize: yeah i guess they must have swapped... i remember something about lisp machine gc flips taking hours 2015-03-17T01:11:50Z solrize: jasom did the 11 run useful lisps? i know there were some pdp-11 lisps but i don't know if they were toys 2015-03-17T01:12:32Z jasom: I think of the 11 a being the machine maclisp was developed on, and the last before they built lisp machines 2015-03-17T01:12:46Z jasom: but I wasn't born yet, so could be wrong 2015-03-17T01:12:47Z solrize: maclisp was done on the pdp-6/pdp-10 i thought 2015-03-17T01:13:38Z solrize: the smallest 10's had 16k of 36 bit words, so equiv to 72kbytes and i don't know if they ran maclisp on them 2015-03-17T01:13:55Z johann quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T01:14:08Z jasom: I would believe the 11/20 didn't run lisp 2015-03-17T01:14:33Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:14:58Z johann joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:15:00Z milosn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T01:15:15Z solrize: it was certainly possible to run lisp on an 11/20, but that's not saying the lisp could do anything useful 2015-03-17T01:15:50Z jasom: And I know they made 11s with 22 bit addressing 2015-03-17T01:18:07Z jasom: and I did have the 10 and 11 mixed up 2015-03-17T01:18:34Z Xach: http://xach.com/rpw3/articles/qLKdnWnvHKZvH9_VnZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d%40speakeasy.net.html has some old time religion re pdp-8 and pdp-11, though not directly lispy 2015-03-17T01:18:43Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:18:47Z johann quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T01:20:14Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:20:19Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:20:39Z solrize: hmm thanks 2015-03-17T01:21:09Z solrize: jasom yeah the 11 was a 16 bit minicomputer with various bank switching hacks to get more than 64k of memory 2015-03-17T01:21:31Z jasom: the 10 was the 36 bit one 2015-03-17T01:21:52Z jasom: and the 11 was the one that they tried to make a PC out of 2015-03-17T01:21:58Z jasom: I've got them straight now 2015-03-17T01:22:34Z solrize: zach thanks, yeah not much lisp there, but i know they ran basic and focal on the pdp8 and some 8's were really small 2015-03-17T01:22:56Z jasom: solrize: how big were the largest 8s? That would at least give you an upper bound 2015-03-17T01:23:15Z solrize: jasom i think 32k again using extension schemes 2015-03-17T01:23:28Z solrize: but they ran basic on smaller ones than that 2015-03-17T01:24:35Z rszeno: basic the language? 2015-03-17T01:25:03Z jasom: considering storing all of the symbols in the hyperspec in nul-terminated ASCII strings takes up ~16k, that's tiny 2015-03-17T01:25:16Z solrize: rszeno yeah BASIC 2015-03-17T01:25:23Z solrize: per wikipedia, 4K FOCAL normally had about 3K of code with only 1K left over for user program and data. 2015-03-17T01:25:48Z solrize: jasom well minicomputer lisps were much smaller than cl 2015-03-17T01:26:04Z jasom: sorry, only 12k; turns out there were 4 spaces at the beginning when copy/paste from the hyperspec 2015-03-17T01:26:08Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T01:26:25Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-17T01:27:17Z jasom: I always like reading papers about how to do efficient spelling correction in double-digit kbytes; lots of worry about how to store your dictionary. 2015-03-17T01:27:51Z jasom: now it's just "ah throw it in some sort of associative container" and the only remotely hard part is making sensible recommendations. 2015-03-17T01:28:03Z solrize: heh 2015-03-17T01:28:21Z solrize: yeah i remember learning about bloom filters from that 2015-03-17T01:28:49Z jasom: And even then, computers are so fast you can brute force all 2-edit distance words in less time than the user can click a choice. 2015-03-17T01:29:04Z jasom: and I put the hyphen in the wrong place 2015-03-17T01:30:27Z rszeno: solrize, i don't think basic was used somewhere else then on personal computers 2015-03-17T01:31:07Z Xach: rszeno: now you know better 2015-03-17T01:31:14Z solrize: it was used widely on minis and on the pdp-10 2015-03-17T01:31:14Z jasom: rszeno: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC#Spread_on_minicomputers 2015-03-17T01:33:14Z rszeno: hm, :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pdp-11 2015-03-17T01:34:33Z Xach left #lisp 2015-03-17T01:34:45Z jasom: By the time I learned the term "minicomputer" it already meant "bigger than what anybody thinks of as a computer anymore" 2015-03-17T01:35:31Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T01:35:42Z bcoburn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T01:36:07Z solrize: jasom lol yeah 2015-03-17T01:36:37Z solrize: a small 11 was about like a big desktop pc 2015-03-17T01:36:57Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:37:27Z rszeno: before this was a room, and before a whole building, :) 2015-03-17T01:38:08Z bcoburn` joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:38:26Z solrize: well mini always meant something smaller than that, i'm pretty sure 2015-03-17T01:38:47Z solrize: sometimes an 11 would fill two or three racks, but that's much smaller than a room filling mainframe 2015-03-17T01:38:48Z jasom: My dad explained it to me, as "If you can have something in the room other than the computer, it's a minicomputer" 2015-03-17T01:38:53Z solrize: haha 2015-03-17T01:39:04Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T01:39:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T01:41:05Z johann joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:41:57Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:42:22Z Zhivago: I remember the lsi-11/73, which was only the size of a mini-fridge. 2015-03-17T01:43:01Z Zhivago: The lsi standing for Large Scale Integration. 2015-03-17T01:43:22Z crack_user quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-03-17T01:44:10Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-03-17T01:45:10Z stokachu quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-03-17T01:45:12Z solrize: My first experience with Lisp was when I read the Lisp 1.5 manual in high school. That's when I had my mind blown by the idea that there could be a computer language like that. The first time I had a chance to do anything with Lisp was when I was a freshman at Harvard and I wrote a Lisp interpreter for the PDP-11. It was a very small machine — it had something like 8k of memory — and I managed to write the interpreter in a thousand instructions. 2015-03-17T01:45:12Z solrize: This gave me some room for a little bit of data. That was before I got to see what real software was like, that did real system jobs. 2015-03-17T01:45:15Z jasom: they never went past "V" for that, did they? 2015-03-17T01:45:19Z solrize: that's by RMS 2015-03-17T01:45:44Z jasom: no ELSI or ULSI 2015-03-17T01:46:11Z johann quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T01:46:12Z jasom: "large scale" integration is like "high" frequency; 2015-03-17T01:46:20Z johann joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:47:06Z jumblerg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-17T01:48:07Z jasom: Both RF and computers really got revolutionized by the high-pace of improved semiconductors... I saw a single-chip 200W S-band amplifier a few weeks ago 2015-03-17T01:48:12Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-17T01:49:01Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-03-17T01:49:09Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:49:42Z Guest47855 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:51:18Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:52:39Z hitecnologys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T01:53:50Z solrize: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=802797&dl=ACM&coll=DL lol 2015-03-17T01:54:01Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:54:08Z hitecnologys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T01:55:44Z jasom: I think that's how firefox used to GC :P 2015-03-17T01:56:07Z jasom: anyway *now* it's dinner 2015-03-17T01:56:09Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:56:45Z gmcastil joined #lisp 2015-03-17T01:57:29Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2015-03-17T01:57:53Z solrize: http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/Hopl2.pdf <-- famous 2015-03-17T02:00:59Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-03-17T02:02:36Z fierydiarreha joined #lisp 2015-03-17T02:02:58Z stokachu joined #lisp 2015-03-17T02:06:51Z solrize: By the mid-1970’s it was becoming increasingly apparent that the address space limitation of 2015-03-17T02:06:52Z solrize: the PDP-10—256k 36-bit words, or about one megabyte—was becoming a severe constraint as the 2015-03-17T02:06:52Z solrize: size of Lisp programs grew. 2015-03-17T02:07:56Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T02:09:31Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T02:09:56Z milwaukee joined #lisp 2015-03-17T02:12:24Z solrize: Interlisp-10 (for the PDP-10) used shallow binding, while Interlisp-D (for D-machines) 2015-03-17T02:12:24Z solrize: used deep binding. These two implementation techniques exhibit different performance profiles—a 2015-03-17T02:12:24Z solrize: program with a certain run time under one regime could take 10 times longer under the other. 2015-03-17T02:12:31Z solrize: when would deep binding be faster? 2015-03-17T02:15:22Z nyef: solrize: IIRC, the binding operation itself is cheaper with deep binding. 2015-03-17T02:15:50Z nyef: ... Though maybe not. 2015-03-17T02:15:51Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-03-17T02:16:01Z solrize: 10x? i'm not even sure how deep binding works.... with shallow binding you push the old value on a stack and then overwrite its cell with the newly bound value 2015-03-17T02:17:21Z nyef: They also have vastly different consequences for multi-thread systems, which could be a reason to choose one over the other irrespective of performance. 2015-03-17T02:17:41Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-17T02:18:14Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T02:19:25Z Guest47855 left #lisp 2015-03-17T02:21:23Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-03-17T02:21:33Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-17T02:21:49Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-03-17T02:23:31Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Like universal turing machines? 2015-03-17T02:54:12Z primenum: I know what a turing machine is. Does the universal qualifier change it in some way? And how is that relevant to my question? 2015-03-17T02:54:21Z pjb: Yes, it does. 2015-03-17T02:54:34Z pjb: So, ask for a refund on your costly and useless education. 2015-03-17T02:55:00Z Bicyclidine: partial functions can be just as well run by turing machines and lambda calculus. pjb is being mean but this is pretty basic. 2015-03-17T02:55:18Z drmeister: Let's not be mean 2015-03-17T02:55:23Z gmcastil` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-17T02:55:25Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T02:56:30Z drmeister: How does one specify the output for ASDF:monolithic-concatenate-source-op - I'm reading the ASDF docs and digging through the source (ugh) but not making much headway. 2015-03-17T02:56:33Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-03-17T02:57:00Z pjb: if it was #csnoobs, I'd say that Turing Machines are made of a state machine and of a memory tape. The state is only a pointer inside the state machine, plus the memory tape. In the case of a univeral turing machine, you move also the state machine into the state space, ie. the tape. 2015-03-17T02:57:44Z drmeister: I'd like to take all my Cleavir interface system and build a list of all the Cleavir source files that it depends on in order of dependency. 2015-03-17T02:58:06Z pjb: You could move the (finite) memory tape into the state machine, so you'd clean the memory tape, but you would still have the state pointer into the fucking STATE machine! 2015-03-17T02:58:07Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-03-17T02:58:46Z drmeister: Oh well - I've posted the question to the ASDF developers list. 2015-03-17T03:00:21Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-03-17T03:00:50Z Bicyclidine quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-03-17T03:02:11Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-03-17T03:04:52Z gko__ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:10:03Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:10:53Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-03-17T03:12:21Z jrm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-17T03:15:54Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:15:54Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-03-17T03:15:54Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:24:00Z alusion is now known as nell 2015-03-17T03:24:28Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:26:23Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:26:55Z Bicyclidine quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-03-17T03:30:24Z jlongster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T03:30:50Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:37:27Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:38:14Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T03:39:22Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:40:19Z Phagus joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:40:30Z pillton: drmeister: I did something similar in lisp-executable. 2015-03-17T03:40:35Z pillton: drmeister: https://github.com/markcox80/lisp-executable/blob/master/src/creation.lisp#L72 2015-03-17T03:40:47Z pillton: It collects the systems rather than the source files, but you should get the idea. 2015-03-17T03:41:00Z Phagus: Question about the CLISP logo. If it's really supposed to be a Menorah, why does it only have 7 candles? 2015-03-17T03:41:38Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-03-17T03:41:40Z pillton: drmeister: It dates back to 2011/2012 though so I'm not sure if it is "the right way" now. 2015-03-17T03:43:31Z nyef: Phagus: 80-character screen limit, maybe? 2015-03-17T03:43:35Z nyef has no idea. 2015-03-17T03:45:15Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-03-17T03:45:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T03:45:44Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:46:33Z Phagus: nyef: Is it supposed to be a menorah though, or just a candlebra? 2015-03-17T03:46:48Z Phagus: it only have 7 candles? 2015-03-17T03:46:58Z Phagus: Whoops. 2015-03-17T03:47:51Z Phagus: Real Menorahs have 9 candles, with one for the "sun-candle" that lights the others 2015-03-17T03:49:38Z beach joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:49:45Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-03-17T03:49:47Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-03-17T03:50:02Z pillton: Good morning beach. 2015-03-17T03:50:10Z White_Flame: Phagus: about as much information as you're going to get: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/faq.html#faq-menorah-why 2015-03-17T03:50:17Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-17T03:50:31Z nyef: Finally finished resurrecting my website. (-: 2015-03-17T03:51:13Z beach: nyef: Nice! URL? 2015-03-17T03:51:26Z nyef: http://lisphacker.com/ 2015-03-17T03:51:39Z nyef: Haven't updated it, but did manage to get it hosted again. 2015-03-17T03:52:19Z beach: So, are your LispOS pages back up? 2015-03-17T03:52:45Z nyef: http://lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-os/project-map/ 2015-03-17T03:53:12Z beach: Excellent! 2015-03-17T03:53:15Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T03:53:37Z beach: nyef: Please change the URL of my LispOS pages to my metamodular site. 2015-03-17T03:53:41Z beach: ... when you have time. 2015-03-17T03:53:56Z nyef: Yeah, was just checking to see if the link was still good. (-: 2015-03-17T03:54:16Z nyef: I also need to do something about email. 2015-03-17T03:54:19Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:55:04Z pillton: nyef: User mode USB drivers? 2015-03-17T03:55:05Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-03-17T03:55:17Z beach: solrize: Don't forget that Maclisp also ran on Multics. Multics Maclisp was a great system, with plenty of memory available (for the time). Multics Emacs was written in Maclisp. 2015-03-17T03:55:35Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations to finding the problem. 2015-03-17T03:55:46Z beach: drmeister: I'll be on it as soon as I wake up a bit more. 2015-03-17T03:55:46Z nyef: pillton: What of them? 2015-03-17T03:56:15Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T03:56:47Z pillton: nyef: I was just surprised to see that. 2015-03-17T03:56:58Z solrize: beach yeah, "he first MIT GE-645 had 512 kilowords of memory (2 MiB), a truly enormous amount at the time, and the kernel only used a moderate portion of Multics main memory." 2015-03-17T03:57:11Z solrize: from wikipedia multics article 2015-03-17T03:57:12Z solrize: *The 2015-03-17T03:57:18Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-03-17T03:57:19Z nyef: pillton: What's surprising about it? 2015-03-17T03:57:25Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T03:57:40Z beach: solrize: The one I worked on had several (I forget how many exactly) MB. 2015-03-17T03:57:52Z beach: Or MW I guess. 2015-03-17T03:57:55Z solrize: wow 2015-03-17T03:58:15Z solrize: emacs = "eight megabytes and constantly swapping" 2015-03-17T03:58:17Z solrize: :) 2015-03-17T03:58:57Z beach: Actually, Multics Emacs was quite fast, except if you had very long lines of text. 2015-03-17T03:59:34Z nyef: pillton: And if that's surprising, then http://lisphacker.com/temp/crtc-lcd-test.lisp will likely be even worse (just don't actually RUN it). 2015-03-17T04:00:23Z milwaukee quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-03-17T04:00:35Z pillton: haha ";; I can't believe I'm doing this." 2015-03-17T04:00:55Z nyef: I've been using CL-USER a lot more, recently, actually. 2015-03-17T04:01:22Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-03-17T04:01:59Z pillton: CL-USER is always need of users. 2015-03-17T04:02:07Z pillton: s/need/in need/ 2015-03-17T04:02:44Z cluck quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T04:03:44Z nyef: Wha... The start of a debugger for Win32 processes written in SBCL? There's all KINDS of stuff that I'd forgotten about buried in here! 2015-03-17T04:08:02Z nyef: beach: Did I ever show you http://lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/object-memory-dumper.txt ? 2015-03-17T04:08:14Z Bicyclidine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T04:08:37Z beach: No, I don't think so. Reading... 2015-03-17T04:09:10Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-03-17T04:12:14Z beach: Looks quite useful. 2015-03-17T04:12:49Z nyef: It'd be the basic memory interpretation layer for a cross-process debugger. 2015-03-17T04:13:19Z beach: I see. I can also imagine other uses for it. 2015-03-17T04:13:41Z beach: I guess they would be part of a debugger as well. 2015-03-17T04:13:52Z nyef: No question about that, I mentioned a number of different directions to take it at the bottom. 2015-03-17T04:14:06Z beach: Yeah. 2015-03-17T04:16:34Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T04:18:32Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T04:19:36Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-03-17T04:24:11Z drmeister: Hi beach. 2015-03-17T04:26:00Z beach: drmeister: Hi. 2015-03-17T04:26:13Z beach: drmeister: I will deal with your problem as soon as I wake up a bit more. 2015-03-17T04:26:32Z drmeister: No problem. 2015-03-17T04:27:09Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-03-17T04:27:39Z beach: drmeister: I am grateful to you for taking the time to do this. As I have told you several times, you are ahead of me in the compilation chain so you run into problems before I do. 2015-03-17T04:28:17Z drmeister: It's important to me to get this working. 2015-03-17T04:28:34Z beach: So I have come to understand :) 2015-03-17T04:29:58Z mbuf: beach, you had mentioned earlier that CL has a powerful type system; what is the theory behind the CL's type system? 2015-03-17T04:30:47Z beach: mbuf: I don't know that there is a particular theory. But it is one of few languages where you can define a type such as "all integers other than 0" or "all prime numbers". 2015-03-17T04:31:21Z mbuf: beach, okay 2015-03-17T04:32:23Z beach: mbuf: Notice that type inference is undecidable. Statically typed languages deal with this problem by imposing heavy restrictions on the programs that the compiler can accept. 2015-03-17T04:33:27Z Bicyclidine: well, the theory is pretty much naïve set theory 2015-03-17T04:33:35Z beach: Right. 2015-03-17T04:33:49Z beach: mbuf: True believers in dynamically-typed languages will tell you that these restrictions are so severe that they have a severe impact on programmer productivity. 2015-03-17T04:34:13Z mbuf: beach, okay 2015-03-17T04:35:26Z beach: mbuf: Advocates of static typing will even tell you that "all integers except 0" "is not a real type", because they have hijacked "type" to mean "whatever my type system can handle". 2015-03-17T04:35:33Z brucem: beach: now people are doing refinement types that require a SMT solver like Z3 to use. (which are highly interesting) 2015-03-17T04:36:47Z beach: brucem: Sounds like it. I haven't kept up. 2015-03-17T04:37:46Z Tetris- joined #lisp 2015-03-17T04:38:22Z Tetris- left #lisp 2015-03-17T04:38:35Z p_nathan joined #lisp 2015-03-17T04:38:40Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T04:38:42Z beach: mbuf: Anyway, that's what I meant by Common Lisp having a powerful type system. 2015-03-17T04:39:32Z nyef: Powerful, limited, tricky to implement, things like that. 2015-03-17T04:39:53Z nuy_10461903 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T04:39:58Z beach: Pedagogical simplifications. :) 2015-03-17T04:40:53Z p_nathan: is there a standards-conformant way to hook function evaluation in CL? E.g., suppose I implement my own OO system and want to have a method call look like (function-name object arg arg arg). 2015-03-17T04:41:32Z beach: p_nathan: That's how calls look already. 2015-03-17T04:41:50Z p_nathan: Yeah. but suppose I want to /implement/ defmethod. :) 2015-03-17T04:42:28Z nyef: p_nathan: Have a look for a concept known as "funcallable-instance". 2015-03-17T04:42:44Z nyef: Should be in AMOP, IIRC. 2015-03-17T04:43:00Z beach: mop funcallable-standard-object 2015-03-17T04:43:00Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-funcallable-standard-object.html 2015-03-17T04:43:28Z nyef: There you go, that's probably it. 2015-03-17T04:43:30Z pillton: A simpler way to think of it is defgeneric is just simply (defun my-func (x) (funcall-my-oo-function (find-my-oo 'my-func) x)). 2015-03-17T04:43:31Z p_nathan: the context is that I'm experimenting with building my own OO system as a hackery of fun, and I'd like to be able to implement nice-looking methods 2015-03-17T04:44:01Z p_nathan: pillton: ah, that makes entirely too much sense 2015-03-17T04:44:07Z p_nathan: I am clearly tired 2015-03-17T04:44:13Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T04:44:17Z nyef: pillton: Except that FIND-MY-OO also depends on x. 2015-03-17T04:44:35Z nyef: mop compute-effective-method 2015-03-17T04:44:35Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-effective-method.html 2015-03-17T04:44:38Z pillton: No, the function FUNCALL-MY-OO-FUNCTION depends on X. 2015-03-17T04:44:54Z pillton: Find my oo finds the "generic function" object. 2015-03-17T04:45:00Z nyef: Ah, okay. 2015-03-17T04:45:26Z nyef: Why bother with the FIND call there, then? Isn't that why we have closures? 2015-03-17T04:45:50Z pillton: What would defmethod communicate with? 2015-03-17T04:46:06Z p_nathan: you need to compute the correct method to invoke - at the least, the right set of selectors to pass into the closure 2015-03-17T04:46:20Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-03-17T04:46:25Z nuy_10461903 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T04:46:42Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T04:47:00Z pillton: p_nathan: I strongly recommend you read the MOP book. The three layered approach to the design of CLOS is really great. 2015-03-17T04:47:08Z pillton: Sorry, the AMOP book. 2015-03-17T04:47:12Z p_nathan: I have done so, pillton. :) 2015-03-17T04:47:19Z pillton: Oh ok. 2015-03-17T04:47:23Z pillton: Cool. 2015-03-17T04:47:59Z p_nathan: this work might see the light of day, if, when a day dawns, I like it and submit it to JSCL as a simplistic "not quite CLOS" system 2015-03-17T04:48:13Z pillton: What does it do? I am doing one now too. 2015-03-17T04:48:51Z Bicyclidine: pillton: i don't think i understand your concern you dealt with with the compiler-macro-shadow branch. 2015-03-17T04:49:02Z Bicyclidine: also, sorry i haven't read your mail, i've been having bad internet times. 2015-03-17T04:49:12Z pillton: Bicyclidine == Bike? 2015-03-17T04:49:51Z p_nathan: pillton: so my main focus is just having basic inheritance, object definition, and instantiation. I.e., a poor mans object system suitable for JSCL's limited capabilities today. 2015-03-17T04:49:53Z Bicyclidine: yes 2015-03-17T04:50:16Z pillton: p_nathan: Ah ok. We aren't working on the same thing then. 2015-03-17T04:50:28Z p_nathan: I highly doubt it. 2015-03-17T04:51:03Z p_nathan: I've got some considerably more exotic ideas involving dynamic typing adding/removing with associated dispatching at run time, but that's not even up for consideration at this point 2015-03-17T04:51:08Z p_nathan: what are you doing? 2015-03-17T04:51:10Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-03-17T04:52:06Z pillton: Something that works with types and integrates with compiler macros. It dispatches on all argument types too, not just required arguments. 2015-03-17T04:52:24Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T04:52:50Z p_nathan: So a significant efficiency improvement? 2015-03-17T04:53:35Z beach: drmeister: Still around? 2015-03-17T04:53:37Z pillton: Well I hope so. I did it to make my life easier to find out. 2015-03-17T04:53:48Z drmeister: Yes 2015-03-17T04:53:49Z beach: drmeister: Are you saying you do not need the ownership fix? 2015-03-17T04:54:16Z beach: If so, I'll deal with the omitted BLOCKs first. 2015-03-17T04:54:45Z p_nathan: pillton: fwiw, my testing / benchmarking has revealed a decent slowdown just from the defmethod machinery vs. defun 2015-03-17T04:54:53Z drmeister: No. It turned out to be redundant - that was part of why it took so long to find. I was thinking the ALLOCAs were being created when I called layout-basic-blocks - but I'd stuck in a block of code that calculated the ownerships and then created alloca's based on that. 2015-03-17T04:55:15Z p_nathan: I'd love to see an efficiency improvement land in CLOS at some point, just on the basis of "speed is good!" 2015-03-17T04:55:21Z drmeister: I took out the ownership calculation and now layout-basic-blocks creates the ALLOCAs as it spools out the instructions. 2015-03-17T04:56:02Z drmeister: The basic-blocks have their ownership worked out properly. 2015-03-17T04:56:14Z pillton: Bicyclidine: Maybe this example helps: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146326 2015-03-17T04:56:19Z beach: drmeister: Oh, I see. 2015-03-17T04:56:38Z pillton: Bicyclidine: No quotes inside the macrolet is intentional. 2015-03-17T04:56:40Z beach: drmeister: So the basic block computation does not need compute-ownerships? 2015-03-17T04:57:06Z drmeister: No. 2015-03-17T04:57:43Z Bicyclidine: pillton: right, but i don't see how i did that - the expander function doesn't call memb. 2015-03-17T04:57:48Z drmeister: It's your basic block computation - it looks like it duplicates the logic of compute-ownerships - only it does it properly wrt UNWIND-INSTRUCTION. 2015-03-17T04:57:58Z drmeister: My memory is a few hours old. 2015-03-17T04:58:00Z Bicyclidine: pillton: or refer to it at all, like you did there with #'memq, i mean. 2015-03-17T04:58:00Z beach: drmeister: Got it. 2015-03-17T04:58:15Z beach: drmeister: compute-ownerships should be reworked anyway. 2015-03-17T04:58:22Z pillton: Bicyclidine: No it doesn't, but you are referring to a compiler macro function. 2015-03-17T04:58:36Z Bicyclidine: also, man, the less i have to think about in-environment the better, i hate that thing 2015-03-17T04:58:46Z pillton: Bicyclidine: Which isn't specifically allowed according to the spec. 2015-03-17T04:58:52Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-03-17T04:59:19Z drmeister: beach: Yeah - it has a traverse function and if you look at the (loop for succ ...) there is no check for UNWIND-INSTRUCTION 2015-03-17T04:59:37Z beach: drmeister: That makes sense. 2015-03-17T04:59:46Z Bicyclidine: the clhs thing you quoted is that local macros can't refer to the outside lexical environment. all the macroexpander does is call compiler macroexpand, which is a normal function, on a constant sexp. so i don't see the issue. 2015-03-17T04:59:58Z drmeister: On the other hand basic-blocks does. 2015-03-17T05:00:12Z beach: drmeister: I think I understand now. 2015-03-17T05:00:14Z Bicyclidine: it doesn't use the lexical environment outside the macrolet. it uses the env parameter, but of course that's fine 2015-03-17T05:00:44Z pillton: I'd argue it isn't as macrolet is only allowed to inspect other macrolets and or symbol-macrolets. 2015-03-17T05:01:00Z drmeister: I think that occasionally (I don't know exactly when) compute-ownerships was descending through an UNWIND-INSTRUCTION into a sequence of instructions in a different functions. 2015-03-17T05:01:02Z Bicyclidine: the macro expander doesn't expect anything, is what i'm saying 2015-03-17T05:01:14Z Bicyclidine: it just calls a normal global function 2015-03-17T05:01:32Z beach: drmeister: That's entirely possible. Anyway, thanks again for finding this. 2015-03-17T05:01:33Z pillton: No, but the test tries to determine if the implementation shadows the compiler macro function. 2015-03-17T05:01:50Z Bicyclidine: sure. 2015-03-17T05:01:53Z pillton: And the test relies on functionality which is undefined. 2015-03-17T05:02:11Z beach: drmeister: The plan is to rework all the traversal functions so that they use one of the map-instructions... functions. 2015-03-17T05:02:14Z pillton: That is what I am trying to argue. 2015-03-17T05:02:17Z Bicyclidine: as far as i can tell your interpretation of what's undefined means that using the env parameter in any way other than calling macroexpand is undefined, which would kind of make the entire library pointless. 2015-03-17T05:02:55Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:03:18Z Bicyclidine: the information it uses from env, that memb is lexically bound, is information that the implementation has to track, unlike having the actual function available at compile time like your paste, which it does not have to do. 2015-03-17T05:03:53Z {-}grant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T05:04:30Z Bicyclidine: oh, and i'll probably merge cmucl and declarative-packages once i take a look at them, the package weirdness is mostly due to when it was part of compiler-macro and i didn't understand the package system nearly as well (i still don't, though) 2015-03-17T05:05:25Z pillton: (That is ok. It took me multiple goes to figure out the nicest way to do it.) 2015-03-17T05:05:42Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T05:05:45Z drmeister: You are very welcome. 2015-03-17T05:06:05Z drmeister: Did you see the part about LABELS and FLET? 2015-03-17T05:06:16Z pillton: Bicuclidine: I agree with your original test and the intent of the library. I am trying to establish why both CCL and CMUCL fail the test. 2015-03-17T05:06:25Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I did. Shouldn't be too hard to fix. 2015-03-17T05:06:45Z Bicyclidine: Doesn't CCL just fail cos of the notinline thing, which as previously discussed i'll probably take out anyway 2015-03-17T05:06:45Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:07:04Z pillton: No it doesn't support shadowing either from memory. 2015-03-17T05:07:16Z Bicyclidine: as for the constant form p thing, when i wrote the tests i was kind of partway testing the library and partway seeing what implementations actually did, which is why they're a bit conceptually fraught 2015-03-17T05:07:26Z drmeister: Great! Send me an email when I should grab an update of SICL. 2015-03-17T05:08:07Z harish_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T05:08:12Z drmeister: beach: You may have seen me post a question about ASDF and getting a list of files - did we talk about that? 2015-03-17T05:08:15Z pillton: There is no need to explain. I just needed those issues fixed to work on supporting CMUCL. 2015-03-17T05:09:03Z Bicyclidine: do you like, use cmucl? 2015-03-17T05:09:13Z drmeister: pillton: I took a look at that source file you posted - I can't figure out how to get the files. 2015-03-17T05:09:46Z pillton can't cope with 3 simultaneous conversations. Searches for students. 2015-03-17T05:10:23Z pillton: Bicyclidine: I don't personally use CMUCL, but I like my stuff to work on different platforms. 2015-03-17T05:10:30Z Bicyclidine: yeah, no objection here 2015-03-17T05:10:32Z drmeister: pillton: I'll bow out. 2015-03-17T05:13:16Z pillton: drmeister: I think if you add a asdf:perform method which specializes on ((op sticky-beak-op) (c asdf/component:source-file)) you should be able to record all of the files as ASDF does a traversal. 2015-03-17T05:14:15Z drmeister: sticky-beak-op? 2015-03-17T05:14:21Z drmeister: Is that yours or asdf? 2015-03-17T05:14:38Z pillton: Mine. Line 57. 2015-03-17T05:15:15Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:17:09Z pillton: Bicyclidine: I guess what I was trying to show is that those implementations do support shadowing at compile time as the compiler macro function is not actually executed. The question is, is the environment incorrect or is it undefined? 2015-03-17T05:17:14Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:18:51Z solrize quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T05:18:54Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T05:18:56Z Bicyclidine: as far as i understand the clhs, just compiler-macro-function of a symbol that's been shadowed should be nil. 2015-03-17T05:19:02Z Bicyclidine: (same as macro-function) 2015-03-17T05:19:26Z solrize joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:19:26Z solrize quit (Changing host) 2015-03-17T05:19:26Z solrize joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:19:38Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:21:55Z pillton: I am mistaken. CCL does the right thing. 2015-03-17T05:24:11Z Bicyclidine: killed the constant form value and notinline tests 2015-03-17T05:24:58Z pillton: The constant form value function is a good idea. You could make it extensible. 2015-03-17T05:25:41Z Bicyclidine: er, i mean i kept the function, just removed the test that relied on constantp doing macroexpansion. 2015-03-17T05:25:48Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:25:54Z Bicyclidine: sbcl's internal constant form value has some kind of extensibility in it 2015-03-17T05:26:03Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:26:38Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-17T05:26:57Z hvxgr quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T05:27:38Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:28:18Z Petit_Dejeuner__ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:28:36Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:30:18Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-17T05:33:04Z yasha9 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T05:37:10Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:38:18Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2-dev) 2015-03-17T05:38:37Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-17T05:41:50Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all) 2015-03-17T05:42:18Z Phagus quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-03-17T05:42:25Z beach: drmeister: We did not talk about ASDF. 2015-03-17T05:43:52Z drmeister: It's ok - pillion gave me some pointers on how to extract the list of files built by a system. 2015-03-17T05:45:21Z drmeister: I have a tiny custom build system built into Clasp - I want to extend it to compile the cleavir code - I need the list of source files in the order that ASDF builds them. 2015-03-17T05:45:42Z johann quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T05:46:28Z yasha9 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:46:37Z scc joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:47:23Z fierydiarreha quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-03-17T05:48:42Z johann joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:50:45Z scc left #lisp 2015-03-17T05:53:03Z drmeister: Ok, everything is building again. Time for bed. 2015-03-17T05:53:41Z drmeister: beach: With the LABELS and FLET fix I can compile past the LOOP code. 2015-03-17T05:53:54Z beach: That would be great. 2015-03-17T05:54:14Z drmeister: These are the files that are built to bring up Clasp: 2015-03-17T05:54:17Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:54:17Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2EM5ihG8 2015-03-17T05:54:47Z drmeister: It got to lsp/loop2 where it ran into a RETURN-FROM in a LABELS function. 2015-03-17T05:54:51Z smokeink left #lisp 2015-03-17T05:55:07Z drmeister: More than half-way 2015-03-17T05:55:30Z beach: Good, excellent progress! 2015-03-17T05:56:07Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:56:19Z beach: It is not entirely trivial to fix LABELS and FLET because I (incorrectly) share the code with compiling things like ((lambda (..) ...) arg ...). 2015-03-17T05:56:31Z drmeister: I've tried loading the earlier Cleavir/Clasp generated bitcode files and functions that I've tried worked fine. 2015-03-17T05:56:42Z beach: That's a good sign. 2015-03-17T05:56:44Z drmeister: COMPILE didn't work sadly and segfaulted. 2015-03-17T05:57:05Z wglb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T05:57:14Z drmeister: But that is testing a lot. I'm just recompiling everything now so that tomorrow I can start debugging COMPILE. 2015-03-17T05:57:40Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2015-03-17T05:57:42Z beach: OK. 2015-03-17T05:58:00Z drmeister: This is the bootstrapping COMPILE compiled using Cleavir/Clasp. Cleavir code will be compiled after :clos 2015-03-17T05:58:09Z drmeister: Because it needs CLOS. 2015-03-17T05:58:54Z beach: drmeister: Do you have any particular reason for not wanting to bootstrap Clasp on an existing Common Lisp system? 2015-03-17T05:59:04Z wemeetagain quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T05:59:14Z drmeister: Once the Cleavir code is installed I'll install a few hooks to bypass the bootstrapping compiler and divert it into Cleavir. Then it will be all Cleavir/Clasp. 2015-03-17T05:59:29Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T06:00:00Z smokeink quit (Client Quit) 2015-03-17T06:00:02Z drmeister: I have no idea how I would achieve that and maintain C++ interoperability. The fact that no one has attempted it gives me pause. 2015-03-17T06:00:28Z drmeister: I know how this works. I don't know how coming out of a Common Lisp would work. 2015-03-17T06:00:54Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:01:09Z beach: OK, we can talk about that some time in the future. 2015-03-17T06:01:38Z beach: I am just getting interested in the choices people make with respect to bootstrapping, and I am interested in understanding those choices. 2015-03-17T06:03:06Z jrm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T06:03:53Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:03:53Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-03-17T06:03:53Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:04:24Z beach: drmeister: You just provided me with a data point: "I know how A works but not B, so I do A." 2015-03-17T06:06:10Z drmeister: That's pretty much it. ECL was the existence proof for me. 2015-03-17T06:06:35Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:06:47Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:08:13Z nuy_10461903 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:08:21Z beach: drmeister: Thinking about things like this a bit deeper is what I do to justify my salary. 2015-03-17T06:08:50Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:08:50Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-03-17T06:08:50Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:09:44Z nuy_10461903 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T06:10:46Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T06:11:06Z nuy_10461903 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:11:27Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:13:18Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T06:14:21Z grant_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:14:27Z oleo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-17T06:14:49Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:15:15Z jasom: beach: the #1 reason people do things suboptimally is because they are in local maxima, and it's not clear that there is a better global maximum 2015-03-17T06:15:36Z jasom: "I know X works, I don't know if Y would work, and even if it did, I don't know it will be better" 2015-03-17T06:15:57Z beach: jasom: Makes sense. 2015-03-17T06:16:22Z jasom: the #2 reason is that it's been bad for so long, they forget it's bad 2015-03-17T06:16:34Z grant_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T06:16:41Z beach: Yeah, tell me about it! :( 2015-03-17T06:16:47Z {-}grant joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:17:15Z jasom: The best engineers I know have a very low annoyange threshold 2015-03-17T06:17:33Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-17T06:17:36Z psy_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-17T06:17:47Z jasom: s/annoyange/annoyance/ 2015-03-17T06:17:58Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:18:31Z pillton: The sad thing though is that you cannot do anything about rule #1. 2015-03-17T06:18:45Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:18:53Z jasom: pillton: it's what idiots are for 2015-03-17T06:19:09Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:19:14Z jasom: lot's of idiots don't realize they're in local maxima and with wide-eyed optimism look for something better 2015-03-17T06:19:18Z pillton: No not at all. No single individual can comprehend an entire domain. 2015-03-17T06:19:21Z jasom: most of them fail, but a few succeed 2015-03-17T06:19:46Z jasom: no, I'm saying idiots are the ones who expand the domain 2015-03-17T06:20:18Z pillton: Civilisation/business does. 2015-03-17T06:20:30Z beach: pillton: Yes, I see what you mean. It is very hard to see beyond the local maximum. 2015-03-17T06:20:35Z jasom: anyway, sleep is the local maximum for me now, so good night 2015-03-17T06:20:44Z beach: 'night jasom. 2015-03-17T06:22:04Z beach: pillton: And that's why there are people trained for, and paid to, do just that, i.e., try to find a better maximum outside this particular local one. 2015-03-17T06:22:44Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-17T06:23:12Z pillton: beach: But they suffer from the same problem. If all you are told is to pump out papers, then why bother expanding your knowledge if you have a fertile area which gives you papers? 2015-03-17T06:24:18Z beach: I can't agree more. 2015-03-17T06:26:02Z jrm2 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:26:21Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:26:26Z jrm2 is now known as Guest52097 2015-03-17T06:26:43Z p_nathan: Dumb question - I'm working with symbols within macros. Part of what I am doing looks like... (funcall func ,@args). I'd like to turn args into an expanded list of quoted symbols. 2015-03-17T06:27:10Z p_nathan: Such that the resultant expansion would be something like (funcall func 'arg1 'arg2 'arg3) 2015-03-17T06:27:24Z beach: ,@(loop for arg in args collect `',arg) 2015-03-17T06:27:45Z p_nathan: ah, there we go. I forget that idiom the 11 months of the year I don't use it. :) 2015-03-17T06:27:47Z jrm quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T06:27:50Z p_nathan: thanks, beach 2015-03-17T06:28:11Z beach: p_nathan: Anytime. And it is not tested, so it's modulo mistakes. 2015-03-17T06:28:56Z p_nathan: yea it's not 100, but it launches me onto a path. :) 2015-03-17T06:29:57Z beach: As I recall Maclisp had a function named KWOTE. Then you could have done ,@(mapcar #'kwote args) :) 2015-03-17T06:30:42Z beach: ... but that's off topic of course. 2015-03-17T06:31:15Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:32:23Z ggole: What did that do? (lambda (sexp) (list `quote sexp))? 2015-03-17T06:32:28Z ggole: Er, 'quote 2015-03-17T06:32:42Z beach: Yeah, I think so. 2015-03-17T06:33:27Z Guest52097 is now known as jrm 2015-03-17T06:33:30Z jrm quit (Changing host) 2015-03-17T06:33:30Z jrm joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:36:19Z beach: Hmm. I don't see it here: http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/ 2015-03-17T06:37:12Z beach: Maybe it was specific to Multics Maclisp. That's the only one I used. 2015-03-17T06:37:43Z Bicyclidine: google gives a definition in PAIP. maybe it was just a common library function, something you throw in the init file 2015-03-17T06:38:06Z beach: Maybe so. 2015-03-17T06:39:12Z shizhz joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:40:42Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T06:43:40Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-17T06:44:28Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:47:37Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-03-17T06:52:22Z primenum quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T07:03:34Z {-}grant quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T07:06:12Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-03-17T07:06:52Z p_nathan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T07:06:57Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:08:15Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T07:11:29Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:11:29Z k-dawg quit (Client Quit) 2015-03-17T07:13:15Z beach left #lisp 2015-03-17T07:14:11Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-17T07:17:48Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T07:18:28Z shizhz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T07:19:56Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T07:20:58Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-03-17T07:21:16Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T07:21:31Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:22:56Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:22:59Z FingerPistol joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:23:40Z FingerPistol left #lisp 2015-03-17T07:24:57Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:31:50Z pyon quit (Quit: My morality has evaporated under the harsh UV light.) 2015-03-17T07:33:29Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:36:39Z GumBall joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:37:11Z GumBall left #lisp 2015-03-17T07:39:59Z jtz quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-03-17T07:40:01Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:40:18Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:42:43Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-03-17T07:42:49Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T07:43:03Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:47:28Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:48:21Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T07:48:44Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:51:31Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:53:11Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T07:53:32Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:56:50Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T07:58:35Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-17T08:07:47Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-03-17T08:07:53Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-17T08:09:30Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T08:09:57Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-03-17T08:10:53Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-03-17T08:11:30Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-03-17T08:12:10Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-03-17T08:15:33Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-03-17T08:19:03Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-03-17T08:19:39Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-03-17T08:24:39Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I have some free time now to add the new entry, if you want me to. 2015-03-17T11:22:24Z Jaskologist quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-17T11:23:29Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:23:34Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:23:48Z jackdaniel: how to associate sort of restarts with specific condition? 2015-03-17T11:24:35Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:24:41Z hitecnologys: clhs handler-bind 2015-03-17T11:24:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_handle.htm 2015-03-17T11:24:54Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:25:05Z hitecnologys: clhs call-restart 2015-03-17T11:25:05Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for call-restart. 2015-03-17T11:25:12Z hitecnologys: clhs invoke-restart 2015-03-17T11:25:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_invo_1.htm 2015-03-17T11:25:15Z jackdaniel: hitecnologys: you mean mixing it with invoke restart? I don't want to invoke it, but show menus 2015-03-17T11:25:24Z hitecnologys: Ah. 2015-03-17T11:25:25Z jackdaniel: but throw into debugger, so user can choose action 2015-03-17T11:25:45Z jackdaniel: but only for specific case, otherwise it should go up 2015-03-17T11:26:40Z hitecnologys: Then I can't think of anything better than putting WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART in HANDLER-BIND, but you've probably figured that out too. 2015-03-17T11:26:47Z jackdaniel: yep 2015-03-17T11:27:03Z jackdaniel: thanks tough 2015-03-17T11:27:47Z hitecnologys: Wait, that's not W-S-R, but you got the idea. 2015-03-17T11:29:14Z jackdaniel: W-S-R? 2015-03-17T11:29:46Z hitecnologys: WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART 2015-03-17T11:29:56Z hitecnologys: What I really meant was RESTART-CASE. 2015-03-17T11:30:10Z jackdaniel: oh, yes 2015-03-17T11:30:27Z jackdaniel: i tought W-S-R is acronym of something like not what i meant :p 2015-03-17T11:30:32Z jackdaniel: even dug urban dictionary :D 2015-03-17T11:30:54Z hitecnologys: Ah, no, of course not. 2015-03-17T11:31:05Z hitecnologys: I'm not into that sort of things. 2015-03-17T11:32:55Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:33:09Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-03-17T11:34:25Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:34:37Z jackdaniel: i think it will be some mish-mash of handler-case with restart-case, not sure of general shape yet tough 2015-03-17T11:34:43Z jackdaniel: good material for macro i suppose 2015-03-17T11:35:57Z hitecnologys: I'd write a macro for that too. 2015-03-17T11:37:23Z jackdaniel: or just catch condition with handler-bind, put restart-case inside it and rethrow datum from it 2015-03-17T11:37:24Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T11:38:17Z hitecnologys: You can write macro and try both. 2015-03-17T11:38:21Z jackdaniel: yes 2015-03-17T11:38:56Z hitecnologys: That's where I'd start and that sounds reasoable, I think. 2015-03-17T11:40:49Z arademaker joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:43:32Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T11:43:34Z arademaker: join #emacs 2015-03-17T11:44:18Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:45:30Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-03-17T11:46:05Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T11:48:33Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:49:00Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T11:49:47Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:51:42Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T11:52:32Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:56:20Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:57:13Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-03-17T11:58:10Z harish_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T11:59:14Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I'm confused about what exactly it is you want to do? Present the debugger on certain conditions? Automatically invoke a certain restart on a certain condition? 2015-03-17T12:04:12Z Jaskologist joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:04:49Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:05:40Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:06:38Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: on certain condition present user with set of appropriate restarts via debugger 2015-03-17T12:07:07Z jackdaniel: which shouldn't be presented, if another condition is risen 2015-03-17T12:07:46Z Shinmera: handler-bind + invoke-debugger should help there then. 2015-03-17T12:08:01Z Ukari quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-03-17T12:10:01Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: i don't want to ignore other errors, just want to treat one condition specially with additional restarts 2015-03-17T12:10:52Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-03-17T12:11:00Z Shinmera: well handler-bind allows you to specify what condition to handle. And I think restart-case allows you to specify associate restarts with conditions. 2015-03-17T12:11:10Z Shinmera: Whoops, brb. 2015-03-17T12:11:11Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-03-17T12:12:16Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-03-17T12:12:35Z jackdaniel: yes, that's what comes to my mind as well, as you can see few lines up 2015-03-17T12:12:42Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:14:03Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:14:21Z arademaker left #lisp 2015-03-17T12:14:41Z antgreen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-17T12:15:20Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:16:36Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:16:53Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Right, I just wasn't sure I knew what exactly was going on. 2015-03-17T12:26:38Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-03-17T12:28:59Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:30:14Z mbuf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-17T12:30:54Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:32:44Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T12:35:02Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T12:35:49Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:38:07Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T12:38:38Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T12:42:16Z przl joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:43:17Z hellofunk joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:47:08Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T12:47:13Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:51:05Z gko__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-03-17T12:51:10Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-03-17T12:51:21Z billstclair is now known as wws 2015-03-17T12:53:45Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-03-17T12:57:30Z jackdaniel: handler-bind make solution too cluttered, but it's pretty simple with handler-case 2015-03-17T12:57:52Z jackdaniel: i've came out with such solution http://ix.io/gWq/common-lisp (rfc) 2015-03-17T12:59:45Z dagnachewa joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:00:10Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:01:09Z jackdaniel: except there's a typo, sorry 2015-03-17T13:01:31Z emaczen: Is it reccomended to use auto-completion add-ons in slime? 2015-03-17T13:02:01Z emaczen: in the emacs package repos I see "ac-slime" and "hippie-expand" 2015-03-17T13:02:35Z john-mcaleely quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me) 2015-03-17T13:03:16Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-03-17T13:03:31Z jackdaniel: http://ix.io/gWr/common-lisp <- corrected version 2015-03-17T13:04:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:09:33Z john-mcaleely joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:09:48Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T13:11:42Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:13:22Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:17:09Z selat joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:17:34Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:17:36Z przl joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:17:54Z nyef: G'morning all. 2015-03-17T13:19:40Z pranavrc quit 2015-03-17T13:20:05Z jackdaniel: o/ 2015-03-17T13:20:12Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:23:52Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:24:28Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:26:06Z PaulCapestany quit (Quit: .) 2015-03-17T13:27:42Z PaulCapestany joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:28:44Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:31:08Z x1n4u joined #lisp 2015-03-17T13:32:01Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2015-03-17T15:42:16Z Guest41162: a macro with variable arguments, and i want them evaluated just once 2015-03-17T15:42:29Z tsumetai joined #lisp 2015-03-17T15:43:03Z dlowe: you might be better off doing it manually and not using once-only 2015-03-17T15:43:29Z Shinmera: Generate an alist of gensyms and arguments, then use that to unroll where needed. 2015-03-17T15:43:55Z wglb joined #lisp 2015-03-17T15:44:53Z Guest41162: right i can do that manually, i thought maybe there are standard ways in some library, thanks! 2015-03-17T15:47:39Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-03-17T15:50:55Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-17T15:53:08Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T15:55:27Z faheem_: Does Kenny Tilton ever come here? 2015-03-17T15:55:35Z H4ns: no. 2015-03-17T15:58:45Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-03-17T16:00:08Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T16:08:28Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-03-17T16:09:23Z gklimowicz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T16:13:03Z faheem_: H4ns: oh. ok 2015-03-17T16:13:16Z Guest41162: that did it, thanks, a swizzle macro almost 10 lines made half of my linear algebra accessors obsolate... 2015-03-17T16:15:25Z gklimowicz joined #lisp 2015-03-17T16:18:05Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T16:18:11Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T16:21:07Z nuy_10461903 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T16:23:48Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2015-03-17T16:24:00Z {-}grant quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-17T16:36:14Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T16:38:35Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T16:39:28Z kanru quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-17T16:39:37Z Guest41162 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T16:40:18Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-03-17T16:40:21Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-03-17T16:40:37Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-03-17T16:42:02Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-03-17T16:48:10Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-03-17T16:51:51Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-03-17T16:52:14Z xan_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-03-17T16:57:36Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-03-17T16:59:46Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:02:31Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-03-17T17:06:29Z fragamus joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:11:45Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-03-17T17:12:13Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-03-17T17:13:07Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:15:08Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:15:26Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:17:08Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:19:52Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T17:22:03Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T17:22:37Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:23:51Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-17T17:26:31Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:28:16Z dmiles_afk quit 2015-03-17T17:28:27Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T17:33:35Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:33:59Z theseb: can i ask an academic question?.....many lisps make a distinction between a symbol and the underlying object in memory......this is made apparent when you try to evaluate some symbols and get a weird representation for some object........wouldn't it be cleaner to make symbols evaluate to themselves and *hide* the machine details? 2015-03-17T17:34:36Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-03-17T17:34:38Z Shinmera: How does one "evaluate" a symbol? 2015-03-17T17:34:39Z theseb: i.e. act as if everything was text 2015-03-17T17:34:41Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:34:49Z ovenpasta quit (Quit: Sto andando via) 2015-03-17T17:35:03Z theseb: Shinmera: yea i said that wrong...what i meant was.....what about acting like the text itself was the lisp object? 2015-03-17T17:35:23Z Shinmera: I have no damn idea what you're talking about 2015-03-17T17:35:34Z theseb: i need an example 2015-03-17T17:35:39Z Xach: yes. 2015-03-17T17:36:06Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:37:12Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:37:26Z theseb: oh snap..common lisp doesn't let you evaluate function names 2015-03-17T17:37:30Z theseb: (defun x () (+ 1 2)) 2015-03-17T17:37:40Z theseb: you can't evaluate x by itself 2015-03-17T17:37:43Z theseb: i think in scheme you can 2015-03-17T17:37:48Z ggole: #'x 2015-03-17T17:38:09Z Bicyclidine: huh, sbcl uses constant-form-value a lot more than i expected. pcl sure is scary. 2015-03-17T17:38:10Z ggole: This doesn't really have anything to do with the symbol x though 2015-03-17T17:38:14Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:38:32Z H4ns: theseb: scheme is much "cleaner" than common lisp. if "clean" is what you're after, cl may not be satisfying. 2015-03-17T17:38:36Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:38:54Z remi`bd: theseb: Common Lisp has different namespaces: the same symbol can denote a function and a variable 2015-03-17T17:39:07Z theseb: aha! i did something similar in guile and x was able to be evaluated....it gave....# 2015-03-17T17:39:18Z theseb: that's what i was referring to 2015-03-17T17:39:31Z Shinmera: A symbol and its binding are two separate things. 2015-03-17T17:39:40Z ggole: That's just the value bound to that symbol 2015-03-17T17:39:51Z psy joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:39:54Z ggole: When you evaluate a variable, you expect to get its value, yes? 2015-03-17T17:39:57Z Bicyclidine: lisp-1 versus lisp-2 is all. 2015-03-17T17:40:26Z Bicyclidine: i have to wonder how often an unwind-protect form is constant. 2015-03-17T17:40:42Z theseb: Shinmera, ggole : yes but it seems cleaner and more mathematical to make the value of x be (+ 1 2) instead of #procedure for god's sake..that's all..just my opinion 2015-03-17T17:40:43Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:41:03Z theseb: Shinmera, ggole : in short..insist on sexprs for all values 2015-03-17T17:41:07Z theseb: and atoms 2015-03-17T17:41:10Z Shinmera: But that would make the value an sexpr not a function. 2015-03-17T17:41:10Z theseb: perhaps 2015-03-17T17:41:38Z ggole: Prolog is a bit like that in some ways 2015-03-17T17:41:40Z ggole: Lisp, definitely not 2015-03-17T17:42:43Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-17T17:43:01Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T17:43:34Z rhllor quit (Quit: rhllor) 2015-03-17T17:43:42Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T17:44:35Z theseb: Shinmera: yes....so just define function representations to be sexps 2015-03-17T17:45:08Z theseb: Shinmera: an sexprs can unambiguously describe a func 2015-03-17T17:45:31Z Shinmera: No it cannot. 2015-03-17T17:45:47Z Bicyclidine: types are for wusses 2015-03-17T17:45:53Z theseb: Shinmera: really? what function cannot be described in lisp? 2015-03-17T17:46:16Z theseb: Shinmera: err well primitives 2015-03-17T17:46:50Z Shinmera: What the s-expr describes and what the resulting function does is not always the same. 2015-03-17T17:46:52Z theseb: Shinmera: a convention for primitives would be needed but that's it 2015-03-17T17:47:00Z ggole: You'd have free variables 2015-03-17T17:47:12Z Shinmera: That too. 2015-03-17T17:47:21Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-03-17T17:47:49Z ggole: It would also make printing data structures containing large functions amazingly annoying 2015-03-17T17:49:30Z jasom: indeed 2015-03-17T17:49:48Z jasom: theseb: with the debug level set high enough, on a lot of lisp implementations you can get the lambda expression for a function 2015-03-17T17:50:09Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T17:50:24Z jasom: clhs function-lambda-expression 2015-03-17T17:50:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm 2015-03-17T17:51:05Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T17:51:13Z theseb: jasom: interesting 2015-03-17T17:51:49Z theseb: on another topic.....i was intrigued to learn McCarthy didn't invent macros 2015-03-17T17:52:22Z jasom: And remember, the lambda-expression isn't always sufficient to describe a function; it may close over a non-null lexical environment 2015-03-17T17:52:26Z theseb: macros are what make lisp divine and otherwordly and McCarthy didn't even have those in the 1st few lisps..i find that interesting 2015-03-17T17:53:21Z jasom: theseb: well the homoiconicity of lisp is what makes macros so more pleasing in lisp than in other languages, and McCarthy is responsible for that 2015-03-17T17:53:27Z theseb: jasom: yes the env must be taken into account 2015-03-17T17:54:03Z jasom: since he was looking for an improved representation for reasoning about computability, code-as-data was very useful. 2015-03-17T17:54:50Z theseb: jasom: yes 2015-03-17T17:54:51Z nyef: McCarthy is also responsible for IF expressions allowing arbitrary blocks for consequent and alternative, rather than being merely conditional GOTOs, IIRC. 2015-03-17T17:55:03Z ggole: And GC 2015-03-17T17:55:05Z theseb: nydel: right 2015-03-17T17:55:19Z nyef: Heh. Odd nick-complete there. d-: 2015-03-17T17:55:41Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T17:58:38Z jasom: Since we're on the topic, other than saving an image, is there a reasonable way to serialize lexical environments and closures? I can think of a few ways that would sort-of work (assuming help from the implementation). It seems quite tractible, for example, to serialize several closures that may share an environment in such a way that they can be loaded again later. 2015-03-17T17:59:52Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:00:03Z ggole: Seems like the same problem as serializing a record 2015-03-17T18:00:12Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:00:23Z ggole: You need all the parts, and everything they point at, etc 2015-03-17T18:00:55Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:02:28Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:02:30Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:02:46Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T18:05:36Z oleo: hello 2015-03-17T18:08:04Z scymtym: jasom: search for "serializable closures" in http://www.discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/common-cold/ 2015-03-17T18:08:04Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T18:14:06Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:14:35Z holycow joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:17:39Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T18:18:24Z rhllor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T18:18:25Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:18:48Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:20:00Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:20:16Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-03-17T18:21:08Z mega1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T18:21:10Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-17T18:21:22Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-03-17T18:22:11Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-03-17T18:22:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:22:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-03-17T18:22:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:23:37Z qlkzy is now known as qlktea 2015-03-17T18:27:48Z felipe joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:27:50Z Adlai: theseb: mccarthy didn't even think implementing sexprs was a good idea and discouraged steve russell from implementing an sexpr based (or any) evaluator 2015-03-17T18:28:49Z nyef: The original Lisp evaluator was a product of a programmer ignoring his boss's instructions. (-: 2015-03-17T18:28:56Z theseb: Adlai: yea....history is strangely interesting and surprising 2015-03-17T18:31:37Z sheilong quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T18:32:49Z felipe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T18:33:09Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T18:33:27Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:33:38Z felipe joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:37:14Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:37:38Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:38:22Z paradoja joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:38:40Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T18:38:56Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:38:59Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T18:45:32Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T18:48:35Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-17T18:53:18Z maarhart joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:53:38Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:53:55Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:54:12Z qlktea is now known as qlkzy 2015-03-17T18:55:18Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, etc.) 2015-03-17T18:55:36Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:55:59Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-03-17T18:56:15Z hvxgr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-17T18:56:49Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-17T18:59:29Z maarhart left #lisp 2015-03-17T19:00:00Z wolf_mozart is now known as Guest19451 2015-03-17T19:00:00Z Guest19451 quit (Killed (morgan.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2015-03-17T19:00:52Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:01:17Z malbertife_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:01:37Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:02:47Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:03:40Z wolf_mozart quit (Changing host) 2015-03-17T19:03:41Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:03:41Z wolf_mozart quit (Changing host) 2015-03-17T19:03:41Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:04:57Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:06:29Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:08:24Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-03-17T19:09:21Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T19:12:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:13:31Z emaczen quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-03-17T19:14:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:15:05Z felipe_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:17:59Z ggole quit 2015-03-17T19:19:01Z felipe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:20:35Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:21:52Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:22:11Z oleo is now known as Guest9311 2015-03-17T19:23:19Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:24:53Z Guest9311 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:26:40Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:28:01Z felipe_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:29:56Z pt1 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-03-17T19:30:12Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:31:22Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-03-17T19:34:22Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:35:42Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-17T19:37:07Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:37:29Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:40:53Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:41:49Z sol__ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:44:11Z hardenedapple quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:48:37Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-03-17T19:49:45Z White_Flame: Any ideas on how to read a file with (foo "\t \" \\") with the backslash-t somehow intact? 2015-03-17T19:51:26Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:51:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:51:30Z White_Flame: (for any arbitrary set of backslashed escapes) 2015-03-17T19:51:56Z pacon2 joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:52:17Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:55:41Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:56:11Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:57:14Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-03-17T19:58:01Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-03-17T19:58:43Z Xach: White_Flame: read as in CL:READ? 2015-03-17T19:59:24Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:59:52Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-17T19:59:55Z White_Flame: yes 2015-03-17T20:00:05Z White_Flame: because strings are embedded within other sexprs 2015-03-17T20:00:15Z vr-rm: Does anyone know whether operations which involve side effects on other arguments in the argument list are evaluated in a well defined way? I remember reading somewhere that this was debated in standards committee. The following does work in SBCL: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146344 2015-03-17T20:00:21Z White_Flame: however, I think this is something to change on the file writer's end, not the reader 2015-03-17T20:00:22Z vr-rm: Obviously your future self is likely to be unhappy finding something like that in your code. 2015-03-17T20:00:29Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-03-17T20:00:45Z dlowe: vr-rm: function arguments are always evaluated left-to-right 2015-03-17T20:01:17Z dlowe: you can screw this up with a macro, but it's considered good form to keep the invariant 2015-03-17T20:01:35Z vr-rm: dlowe: in the order in which they were defined? And with previous arguments as part of the 'environment'? 2015-03-17T20:01:51Z Xach: White_Flame: when i encountered a similar situation, i added a new macro character for " that was similar to the standard, but had different behavior for \ 2015-03-17T20:02:02Z Xach: White_Flame: then i used that readtable around loading the input file 2015-03-17T20:03:40Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-03-17T20:03:42Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-03-17T20:03:47Z White_Flame: right, I was thinking along those lines. Any chance that's in a library somewhere? 2015-03-17T20:05:16Z dlowe: vr-rm: yes. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababc.htm 2015-03-17T20:05:21Z Xach: White_Flame: no, sorry. 2015-03-17T20:06:04Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-03-17T20:09:42Z futpib quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-03-17T20:10:16Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-03-17T20:10:30Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-03-17T20:10:44Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-03-17T20:14:49Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-17T20:17:32Z digiorgi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T20:17:57Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-03-17T20:18:29Z vr-rm: dlowe: Hmm that doesn't seem to address my question. What I was asking about was not how function forms are evaluated, but how the default values in the function argument list are evaluated i.e. if the keyword value :end is omitted then lisp will compute a default argument by apply length to the sequence specified earlier in the function definition. Seems a question more suitable for a longer format discussion than chat. 2015-03-17T20:20:36Z dlowe: vr-rm: it's still left-to-right. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_dad.htm 2015-03-17T20:20:45Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-03-17T20:22:01Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-03-17T20:22:04Z jasom: White_Flame: cl-interpol 2015-03-17T20:22:12Z johann joined #lisp 2015-03-17T20:22:27Z jasom: http://weitz.de/cl-interpol/ 2015-03-17T20:23:05Z jasom: White_Flame: might be more than you want, but it's what I use for when I write lots of stringy code 2015-03-17T20:23:19Z White_Flame: thanks, I'll check it out 2015-03-17T20:26:54Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Just introduce a special operator to get the variable values: (defun f (x y) (+ (variable x) (variable y))) 2015-03-17T20:57:22Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-03-17T20:58:07Z Oveja joined #lisp 2015-03-17T21:02:20Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-03-17T21:04:17Z josteink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T21:04:43Z vr-rm: dlowe: Yes, that's correct. cltl explicitly answered my question in paragraph https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node64.html "Whenever any initform is... that form may refer to any parameter variable to the left of the specifier in which the initform appears" 2015-03-17T21:06:11Z Xach: cltl is a nice read but not an authoritative source 2015-03-17T21:08:35Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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CFFI doesn't really touch C at any stage. 2015-03-17T22:10:27Z Ralt: Odin-: that's what I was afraid of. 2015-03-17T22:10:42Z Ralt: the macro I want to use is part of glibc... 2015-03-17T22:10:48Z Ralt: i.e. the source code is impossible to read 2015-03-17T22:11:02Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T22:11:44Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-03-17T22:12:44Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-03-17T22:14:09Z oleo: and commented lines get stripped too via read...... 2015-03-17T22:14:10Z oleo: meh 2015-03-17T22:15:10Z sol__ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T22:15:59Z pgomes joined #lisp 2015-03-17T22:16:21Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-17T22:16:38Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T22:16:41Z pgomes quit (Client Quit) 2015-03-17T22:17:39Z altamic quit (Quit: altamic) 2015-03-17T22:18:32Z rtoym_ joined #lisp 2015-03-17T22:19:21Z rtoym quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-17T22:19:27Z rtoym_ is now known as rtoym 2015-03-17T22:20:11Z sol__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-17T22:20:11Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-03-17T22:21:43Z oleo: ok solved 2015-03-17T22:23:52Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146347#1 2015-03-17T22:24:24Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T22:24:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-03-17T22:24:42Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-03-17T22:25:10Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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To satisfy myself I also tracked down the wording in the hyper-spec: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 2015-03-17T23:02:44Z d4ryus__ is now known as d4ryus 2015-03-17T23:03:36Z boogie joined #lisp 2015-03-17T23:03:44Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-03-17T23:03:56Z intinig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-17T23:08:09Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-17T23:09:27Z oleo: nope not solved.....meh :/ 2015-03-17T23:09:35Z oleo: hahaha 2015-03-17T23:09:44Z oleo: now i have a ) mismatch.... 2015-03-17T23:12:21Z isoraqathedh quit (Quit: Verhatenad!) 2015-03-17T23:18:38Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T23:20:09Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-17T23:22:21Z zacts quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-03-17T23:24:59Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-03-17T23:27:03Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-03-17T23:28:05Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-17T23:28:55Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-03-17T23:29:23Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-17T23:31:09Z Oveja quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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