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2015-03-16T01:47:02Z pjb: pillton: why isn't it obvious that it's to ensure similar semantics when compiling as when interpreting?
2015-03-16T01:47:25Z pillton: No it isn't obvious.
2015-03-16T01:47:28Z drmeister: ehu: I found another graph viewing program "Cytoscape" - I'm checking whether I can get large flow charts into it and view them.
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2015-03-16T01:48:23Z pillton: What can be obtained and used from the lexical environment isn't obvious.
2015-03-16T01:48:28Z nyef: drmeister: The tools in graphviz aren't able to render the graphs usably?
2015-03-16T01:48:31Z pillton: And minimal compilation contributes to that.
2015-03-16T01:49:12Z drmeister: nyef: No - I have a problem that I only see when I compile the entire function and the resulting HIR flow chart is huge.  Graphviz is for small graphs.
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2015-03-16T01:50:58Z nyef: Would it help to work in terms of a textual representation instead?
2015-03-16T01:51:35Z nyef: We don't really have a fancy graphical representation for IR1 or IR2 in SBCL, but we do have a textual format, and it basically doesn't break.
2015-03-16T01:53:31Z drmeister: It generates hundreds of functions.  I can generate the textual representation of the LLVM module and I can clearly see the problem.
2015-03-16T01:53:40Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out if the problem is in the HIR.
2015-03-16T01:54:02Z drmeister: If it's in the HIR it's a Cleavir problem.   If it's not in the HIR it's a Clasp problem.
2015-03-16T01:54:40Z Zhivago: Well, it wasn't obvious back in the dark ages.
2015-03-16T01:54:54Z Zhivago: But I think it's fairly obvious that implementation technique shouldn't affect operational semantics.
2015-03-16T01:55:15Z Zhivago: Unless you're talking about CL's compile mechanism and friends.
2015-03-16T01:55:24Z drmeister: Right now the graphs generated by Cleavir appear broken - I need to talk with beach when he gets on about it.
2015-03-16T01:55:50Z drmeister: The graphviz output was going to be my textual representation.
2015-03-16T01:56:02Z nyef: drmeister: Do I understand that you're working towards having the Cleavir-based Clasp self-host?
2015-03-16T01:56:07Z drmeister: In the meantime I'm messing around with other ways to render the graph.
2015-03-16T01:56:21Z drmeister: nyef: Yes.   I think I'd be done if it wasn't for this problem.
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2015-03-16T02:03:50Z drmeister: Because I'm compiling 42 of the 84 or so Clasp Common Lisp source files and a problem surfaces in the second last function of the 42nd file. The function that does the setup for COMPILE-FILE.   It has lots of macros and binds lots of dynamic variables and it is a beast.
2015-03-16T02:04:30Z drmeister: I've tried commenting out inner parts of the function and the problem vanishes.
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2015-03-16T02:34:38Z holomorphic: anyone used the Lisp Interface Library for a project? I was able to use some of the data types, but seeing some example code would be nice and I've found very little
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2015-03-16T03:59:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-03-16T03:59:59Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-03-16T04:00:48Z Oladon: Evening beach
2015-03-16T04:00:50Z pillton: beach: Was it you that started CLtL3?
2015-03-16T04:01:01Z beach: No.
2015-03-16T04:01:30Z beach: Isn't that the one that adds new syntax and all?
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2015-03-16T04:02:06Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-03-16T04:02:30Z beach: nyef: Welcome back.
2015-03-16T04:02:36Z nyef: Thanks.
2015-03-16T04:02:53Z nyef: I'm hoping to be back for at least a couple of weeks this time. Maybe longer.
2015-03-16T04:03:07Z beach: Good!
2015-03-16T04:05:29Z beach: pillton: Do you have a URL for CLtL3?
2015-03-16T04:06:16Z pillton: No. Just the launchpad site.
2015-03-16T04:06:57Z beach: pillton: As I recall, that project involves some radical changes to the language.  I wouldn't do anything like that.
2015-03-16T04:07:20Z pillton: It appears to be hosted on common-lisp.net and doesn't work anymore.
2015-03-16T04:08:09Z pillton: I wanted to see what they had in mind for lexical environments.
2015-03-16T04:09:07Z beach: First-class lexical environments?
2015-03-16T04:09:26Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-03-16T04:09:52Z pillton: No. I was whining before about macrolet and minimal compilation.
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2015-03-16T04:10:19Z beach: pillton: I see.  Do you have a problem with those?
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2015-03-16T04:11:54Z pillton: Yes. You can only call functions in the global environment from within a lexical macro function.
2015-03-16T04:12:07Z pillton: It is completely at odds with the evaluation model in CL.
2015-03-16T04:12:26Z beach: In CLtL3?
2015-03-16T04:12:37Z pillton: No, in CLTL2.
2015-03-16T04:12:51Z beach: Oh, now I see what you are saying.
2015-03-16T04:13:24Z beach: Right.  I remember the discussion, and I remember the Common Lisp HyperSpec entry.
2015-03-16T04:13:36Z beach: ... because I had to figure it out in order to implement it. :)
2015-03-16T04:14:05Z pillton: Yeah. I'm sure I am not the first to be bitten by it. I knew I hated macrolet, I just couldn't remember why. :)
2015-03-16T04:14:13Z beach: Heh.
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2015-03-16T04:15:16Z beach: pillton: What is your proposed fix?
2015-03-16T04:15:17Z pillton: But it did give me an idea on how to change the definition of minimal compilation so it does the right thing.
2015-03-16T04:15:25Z beach: Oh, excellent!
2015-03-16T04:16:23Z pillton: The compiler maximises the amount macro expansion by walking the code until it encounters a lexical function/macro function.
2015-03-16T04:17:12Z beach: And then?
2015-03-16T04:17:24Z pillton: That is what is compiled.
2015-03-16T04:17:38Z beach: I see.
2015-03-16T04:17:45Z pillton: Then macrolet can do the right thing.
2015-03-16T04:17:48Z beach: The rest is done at run-time?
2015-03-16T04:18:12Z pillton: Yes. There is no other way as a lexical function may depend on function arguments.
2015-03-16T04:18:21Z beach: I agree.
2015-03-16T04:18:56Z pillton: You could also add a declaration to a macro function that says it is final and thus the compiler can assume that its definition will not change at runtime.
2015-03-16T04:20:10Z beach: OK, I am losing you because I am not quite awake yet.  Maybe you should write all this down on a web page or something so that it can be scrutinized a bit better.
2015-03-16T04:21:20Z pillton: Sure.
2015-03-16T04:21:45Z pillton: It won't be a web page. jasom killed my enthusiasm for that approach.
2015-03-16T04:21:55Z beach: Oh?
2015-03-16T04:22:30Z beach: I would definitely read it because I want to know the consequences of your suggestion on performance.
2015-03-16T04:23:00Z pillton: I was wondering about that last night.
2015-03-16T04:24:43Z pillton: That is when I am came up with the maximising minimal compilation idea. It shouldn't be any different as long as your lexical macro functions do not depend on the lexical environment at runtime.
2015-03-16T04:25:31Z beach: I understand.  So it would even be backward compatible, right?  I mean, the Common Lisp HyperSpec says the consequences are "undefined", yes?
2015-03-16T04:25:43Z pillton: Yes.
2015-03-16T04:25:49Z beach: I like it!
2015-03-16T04:28:38Z pillton: I should quantify my "Yes" to mean "Yes,  without any really deep thought and without writing anything down."
2015-03-16T04:29:08Z beach: Yes, that's why I would like to see something more detailed.
2015-03-16T04:29:19Z pillton: The thing I like about it though is that you should be able to remove all of the restrictions on when you can call compiler macros.
2015-03-16T04:29:45Z beach: I understand.
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2015-03-16T04:42:28Z beach: pillton: I am sorry.  I confused CLtL3 with something else.  Here is more information: http://ilc2009.scheming.org/node/48
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2015-03-16T04:43:18Z beach: Apparently, it was started by fe[nl]ix and drewc.
2015-03-16T04:44:37Z pillton: Yeah. Tobias and Luis are on the launchpad site too. I was surprised to hear that they introduced new syntax given their contributions to the community already.
2015-03-16T04:44:49Z beach: ... and now I can't remember the name of the project I thought you were referring to, where they add lots of syntax to the language.
2015-03-16T04:45:08Z beach: pillton: Yeah, my bad.  Sorry again.
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2015-03-16T04:45:38Z pillton: beach: Don't worry. We solved it.
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2015-03-16T04:46:00Z beach: Except that I still want to know the name of the project I was thinking of.
2015-03-16T04:46:15Z beach: I hate it when I forget these things.  Not surprising though.
2015-03-16T04:46:17Z nyef: ... It was some Japanese project, wasn't it?
2015-03-16T04:46:26Z pillton: It had a mad readtable from memory.
2015-03-16T04:46:28Z beach: Ah, maybe so.
2015-03-16T04:47:16Z nyef: The name is escaping me, as well.
2015-03-16T04:47:33Z nyef: Was it on github?
2015-03-16T04:47:48Z beach: I won't say "I am glad I am not alone" because that would be wishing my bad memory on others.
2015-03-16T04:48:24Z pillton: In this instance you say, "I am glad you are as busy as me."
2015-03-16T04:48:34Z beach: Oh, wait Lisp 21 or something like that?
2015-03-16T04:48:46Z beach: Suggesting a new version or a new era.
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2015-03-16T04:49:15Z nyef: That's sounding familiar, yes...
2015-03-16T04:49:20Z drmeister: beach: Two examples of rendering large HIR graphs:
2015-03-16T04:49:21Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/Qr3UCLM.png
2015-03-16T04:49:27Z pillton: Yeah: https://github.com/fukamachi/cl21
2015-03-16T04:49:30Z pillton: Nice work.
2015-03-16T04:49:38Z beach: pillton: Great!
2015-03-16T04:49:38Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/zn53ESU.png
2015-03-16T04:50:16Z beach: Oh dear, is that the guy who is so praised by many people here?
2015-03-16T04:50:31Z beach: drmeister: Nice!
2015-03-16T04:50:48Z beach: What tool is that?
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2015-03-16T04:54:35Z drmeister: Cytoscape
2015-03-16T04:54:43Z beach: drmeister: Does the offending function contain any construct that is not used in other functions?  The fact that there are many constructs that also appear elsewhere and that those constructs are nested should not influence the result.
2015-03-16T04:54:47Z drmeister: Cytoscape is the second one
2015-03-16T04:54:58Z drmeister: graphviz + Adobe Illustrator is the first one.
2015-03-16T04:55:06Z beach: OK.
2015-03-16T04:55:12Z drmeister: beach: I still have no idea.
2015-03-16T04:55:30Z drmeister: It's the most frustrating bug I've seen in a long time.
2015-03-16T04:55:39Z beach: I can imagine.
2015-03-16T04:55:47Z drmeister: It's once again, a variable defined in one function and used in another.
2015-03-16T04:56:19Z drmeister: Do you have some time to chat about it?
2015-03-16T04:56:27Z beach: Sure.
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2015-03-16T04:56:56Z drmeister: First thing - the graphviz update you made has changed the way graphs look.
2015-03-16T04:57:01Z drmeister: Hang on - I'll generate one.
2015-03-16T04:57:13Z nyef: I believe that it's time for me to wish the two of you luck with your compiler issues.
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2015-03-16T04:57:57Z beach: drmeister: The order in which things are drawn changed.  Graphviz might be sensitive to that.
2015-03-16T04:58:53Z drmeister: Well, the big thing seems to be that the labels of datums no longer correspond to variable names
2015-03-16T04:59:12Z drmeister: Maybe you are printing the instruction-id?
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2015-03-16T04:59:27Z beach: Hmm.  That's strange.
2015-03-16T04:59:38Z beach: Definitely unintended.
2015-03-16T05:00:31Z beach: I might have unintentionally removed something.
2015-03-16T05:00:54Z beach: Does it just print the GENSYMed name?
2015-03-16T05:03:15Z drmeister: I'm just recreating a graph
2015-03-16T05:03:56Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/gqOgyPT.png
2015-03-16T05:04:10Z drmeister: (cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda (x y) (+ x y 1)) :debug t)
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2015-03-16T05:04:48Z drmeister: Hang on - that wasn't it.
2015-03-16T05:05:11Z drmeister: This one:  http://i.imgur.com/TS3224w.png
2015-03-16T05:05:22Z beach: How strange.  I just pulled up the diffs and I can't see where I would have removed the names.
2015-03-16T05:05:34Z drmeister: Give me a sec.
2015-03-16T05:05:45Z drmeister: This is the code:
2015-03-16T05:05:45Z drmeister: (cleavir-compile 'foo '(lambda (x y) (+ x y 1)) :debug t)
2015-03-16T05:05:47Z beach: Wow, no yellow in ovals.
2015-03-16T05:05:52Z drmeister: Yes.
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2015-03-16T05:07:50Z drmeister: This is the LLVM-IR generated from this HIR - the labels are all different and don't correspond to any in the HIR graph:
2015-03-16T05:07:53Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/EKhMmL7x
2015-03-16T05:09:07Z drmeister: Also, the inputs to "precalc-symbol" and "precalc-value" should be immediate values, not GENSYMs
2015-03-16T05:09:08Z beach: I am not drawing the names of the lexical variables anymore.  I need to figure out why.  I can't figure out what happened from the diff.
2015-03-16T05:09:42Z beach: OK, I am probably not drawing data at all then.
2015-03-16T05:10:09Z beach: I will deal with it as soon as I wake up.
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2015-03-16T05:12:51Z drmeister: Moving on - I've written a rendering package that generates GML files.  It's a graph file format that Cytoscape reads because Cytoscape doesn't read graphviz output.
2015-03-16T05:13:24Z beach: OK.
2015-03-16T05:13:37Z drmeister: Cytoscape will do a couple of different layouts and the advantage is that it is very fast with huge numbers of nodes and vertices.
2015-03-16T05:13:50Z drmeister: The downside is they all look like a dogs breakfast.
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2015-03-16T05:15:58Z drmeister: I was able to get somewhat reasonable layout performance from graphviz using "neato" or "sfpd" - I forget - it took a couple of hours to lay it out.    This was helpful:  http://www.graphviz.org/content/root
2015-03-16T05:16:01Z beach: We might try Tulip.
2015-03-16T05:16:15Z drmeister: That's where I got this:   http://i.imgur.com/zn53ESU.png
2015-03-16T05:16:31Z drmeister: See those arms radiating out?
2015-03-16T05:16:39Z drmeister: Made up of little knobs
2015-03-16T05:16:58Z beach: Yes, I see it.
2015-03-16T05:17:05Z drmeister: Each one of them is a call-with-variable-bound
2015-03-16T05:18:03Z drmeister: I have at most 25 special variables bound within that function.
2015-03-16T05:18:33Z drmeister: I've tried to comment out inner parts of the function - the problem goes away.
2015-03-16T05:18:49Z beach: If you suspect that binding special variables is a problem, you might try the following:
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2015-03-16T05:19:19Z drmeister: There are 168 errors generated by the function - 168 uses of variables in function X when they are ALLOCd in function Y.
2015-03-16T05:19:40Z beach: Try a form like (cons 'a (lambda () (+ a (cons 'a (lambda () .... a)))))
2015-03-16T05:19:51Z beach: And nest it very deep.
2015-03-16T05:20:05Z beach: Because that's the basic structure of call-with-variable bound.
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2015-03-16T05:20:43Z drmeister: What I don't see is how that can be the problem.  If I blow out the bottom of the stack - the outcome is very simple - segfault.
2015-03-16T05:21:26Z beach: drmeister: That experiment would let you confirm or rule out that it has to do with many nested call-with-variable-bound.
2015-03-16T05:21:34Z beach: drmeister: Right now that is what you seem to focus on.
2015-03-16T05:21:50Z beach: drmeister: But neither of us can figure out why it would be a problem.
2015-03-16T05:22:29Z beach: drmeister: So by isolating this case and trying it with a many nested forms, we might gain some insight.
2015-03-16T05:22:36Z drmeister: I still have no idea if the problem is in the MIR or if it's in my translation of the MIR - that's what all this messing around with graph layout was for.   In Cytoscape I could search for the offending variable name and drag it out of the mass edge by edge and figure out if its shared between two functions.
2015-03-16T05:23:41Z drmeister: beach: It's not what I'm focused on.  It's just one thing that happens a lot in this function.  I don't think it's the problem because it wouldn't fail like this.
2015-03-16T05:23:51Z beach: I see.
2015-03-16T05:24:22Z beach: There is a third possibility.  I know it should be a last resort, but LLVM is written in C or C++ right?
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2015-03-16T05:24:36Z drmeister: Do you have code in there to look for instructions that take particular datums as input or generate them as output?
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2015-03-16T05:24:52Z drmeister: LLVM is written in C++
2015-03-16T05:24:55Z beach: It wouldn't necessarily give an error message if there is a buffer overflow or something like that.
2015-03-16T05:25:27Z beach: But let's not pursue this possibility yet.
2015-03-16T05:25:33Z drmeister: This is not taxing LLVM.
2015-03-16T05:25:42Z beach: Oh.  OK.
2015-03-16T05:26:00Z beach: drmeister: That kind of code would be trivial to write.
2015-03-16T05:26:04Z drmeister: It's generating a few hundred LLVM functions when it compiles this one CL function - but that's nothing in the scheme of things.
2015-03-16T05:26:15Z beach: OK, I understand.
2015-03-16T05:26:50Z beach: (map-instructions-arbitrary-order (lambda (instruction) (if (find .. (inputs instruction)) ...)) initial-instruction)
2015-03-16T05:26:51Z drmeister: And - when LLVM fails - it fails hard.  It is C++ after all.
2015-03-16T05:27:25Z drmeister: Every datum has to be the input for some instruction - correct?
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2015-03-16T05:28:08Z beach: No, it might be unused, so that it is just an output.
2015-03-16T05:28:44Z drmeister: Ok, well - that won't come up here - it's being used by instructions - it's just being created in the wrong function.
2015-03-16T05:29:17Z drmeister: It's about 80 datums that may or may not be connected to instructions in two different functions.
2015-03-16T05:29:44Z beach: How big is your function again?
2015-03-16T05:29:49Z drmeister: Maybe that's it - maybe I should search all the datum and gather their input and output instructions and check who there owner is.
2015-03-16T05:30:12Z drmeister: How would I measure that given that it has about a dozen nested macros.
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2015-03-16T05:30:30Z beach: I don't know.  Not important I guess.
2015-03-16T05:30:36Z drmeister: It's the function that sets up everything to COMPILE-FILE a file.
2015-03-16T05:31:27Z drmeister: It sets up a lot of special variables to coalesce load-time-values, special variables to set up the LLVM module and global variables etc.
2015-03-16T05:31:34Z beach: Maybe I should come up with a way of serializing HIR so that you can send the output to me.
2015-03-16T05:32:23Z drmeister: That might be more work than it's worth.
2015-03-16T05:32:38Z beach: Bah, this is Common Lisp.  It should be trivail.
2015-03-16T05:32:41Z beach: trivial.
2015-03-16T05:33:56Z beach: I just need to do the same thing that I did for ASTs, provide SAVE-INFO for each instruction and datum.
2015-03-16T05:34:46Z beach: drmeister: Monday mornings are a bit crazy here.  I need to vanish for half an hour or so.
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2015-03-16T05:36:44Z drmeister: Sure - I'm following a train of thought.
2015-03-16T05:36:49Z drmeister: Talk to you later.
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2015-03-16T05:50:19Z drmeister: Is this valid Common Lisp?
2015-03-16T05:50:23Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/gTewyaE6
2015-03-16T05:50:49Z drmeister: Should there be a DO in front of the (format stream ... on line 4?
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2015-03-16T05:52:02Z H4ns: drmeister: no, multiple forms can follow a do
2015-03-16T05:52:19Z H4ns: drmeister: your code is fine
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2015-03-16T06:05:02Z beach: drmeister: I propose to do the following:
2015-03-16T06:05:08Z beach: 1. Fix the drawing.
2015-03-16T06:05:28Z beach: 2. Write a routine that shows data written by one function and read by another.
2015-03-16T06:05:33Z drmeister: I've got a bit more insight about the drawing.
2015-03-16T06:05:35Z beach: Will that help?
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2015-03-16T06:06:11Z beach: drmeister: I do too.  What is yours?
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2015-03-16T06:07:23Z drmeister: Mine's crazy  - for some reason draw-datum isn't being called.  I'm tracing it and it's showing up in the trace but I'm putting FORMAT statements within draw-datum and it's not printing.  None of the output from draw-datum is showing up in the dot file.
2015-03-16T06:07:30Z drmeister: Does yours look like mine?
2015-03-16T06:07:39Z drmeister: Is it some weird generic dispatch problem in Clasp?
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2015-03-16T06:08:13Z beach: That is very strange.
2015-03-16T06:08:18Z drmeister: I feel like I'm going down the rabbit hole here.
2015-03-16T06:08:23Z beach: My insight is that I draw data several times.
2015-03-16T06:08:41Z beach: ... and that maybe Graphviz is not dealing with that very well.
2015-03-16T06:09:46Z beach: drmeister: The format statements might require a FINISH-OUTPUT.
2015-03-16T06:10:16Z beach: Where did you put your FORMATs?
2015-03-16T06:10:25Z drmeister: I don't see any output from DRAW-DATUM showing up in the .dot file.
2015-03-16T06:10:44Z drmeister: I put some formats in the DRAW-DATUM methods
2015-03-16T06:11:15Z beach: Well, in order to get the hexagonal shape, draw-datum has to be called in some places.
2015-03-16T06:12:11Z drmeister: Ok now I'm getting some output.
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2015-03-16T06:14:41Z drmeister: It's bizarre - are you getting output that looks like the thing I posted?
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2015-03-16T06:15:12Z beach: I haven't tried your example.  When I tested the drawing yesterday, it looked fine.
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2015-03-16T06:22:47Z beach: ... and I can't see from the code how DRAW-DATUM would not be called on some data.
2015-03-16T06:24:09Z drmeister: I don't get it.  I have to pack it in tonight - I'm going crazy.
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2015-03-16T06:24:40Z beach: Yeah, it is probably best to get some sleep.
2015-03-16T06:24:43Z drmeister: I'm putting stuff into DRAW-DATUM and it's being ignored
2015-03-16T06:25:07Z beach: I think we need to figure out that problem before doing anything else.
2015-03-16T06:25:52Z drmeister: I'm editing graphviz-drawing.lisp in sicl/Code/Cleavir/Intermediate-representation/HIR/   That's where this code lives right?
2015-03-16T06:26:12Z beach: Yes.
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2015-03-16T06:42:49Z drmeister: This is the only method that I seem to have control over.  I can put a FORMAT statement into it, compile with C-c C-c in slime, run the compilation and see the message in the output.   Every other method of DRAW-DATUM seems to be completely  ignored
2015-03-16T06:42:51Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146304
2015-03-16T06:43:04Z drmeister: How the heck can this happen and have Common Lisp run at all?
2015-03-16T06:43:18Z drmeister: I'm absolutely flummoxed - I'm going to bed.
2015-03-16T06:44:00Z beach: OK.
2015-03-16T06:44:46Z beach: Indeed, your output suggests that no other method is being called.
2015-03-16T06:45:25Z beach: I need to go as well.
2015-03-16T06:46:41Z pillton: Cya beach. Have a good day.
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2015-03-16T06:48:43Z drmeister: Time to make clean and recompile everything
2015-03-16T06:50:22Z flip214: Can I use hunchentoot's easy-handlers if I want to have two different functions for GET /uri and POST /uri ?
2015-03-16T06:50:47Z flip214: I'm currently playing around with :acceptor-names '(:GET) but can't get it to work.
2015-03-16T06:51:57Z flip214: ah, acceptor-names seems to be the wrong tool here.
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2015-03-16T06:59:55Z H4ns: flip214: nope
2015-03-16T07:00:18Z H4ns: flip214: well, you can, but your handler needs to dispatch based on the method.  you can't "specialize" on it
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2015-03-16T07:26:42Z flip214: H4ns: yeah, thanks. I substituted the :uri string with a lambda.
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2015-03-16T08:41:32Z faheem_: drmeister: if you consider 9 hours a lot of sleep, that is a little worrying. I know I'm not your mum or anything. Just saying.
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2015-03-16T08:42:25Z Shinmera: Nine hours is a lot.
2015-03-16T08:42:35Z faheem_: Shinmera:  on what planet?
2015-03-16T08:42:45Z Shinmera: This one.
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2015-03-16T08:42:53Z faheem_: Shinmera: nah
2015-03-16T08:43:08Z Shinmera: Seven hours is a minimum, nine is a lot, and anything above is monstrous.
2015-03-16T08:43:56Z Shinmera: Either way, good morning, #lisp
2015-03-16T08:44:18Z flip214: this consideration depends on the age, the weather, and the number of kids running around, among other factors.
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2015-03-16T08:47:10Z mbuf: what is the theory behind lisp's powerful type system?
2015-03-16T08:47:47Z H4ns: mbuf: lisp does not have a particularly powerful type system.
2015-03-16T08:48:00Z lieven: I wouldn't say lisp is known for having a powerful type system
2015-03-16T08:48:14Z mbuf: okay
2015-03-16T08:48:34Z lieven: if you're interested in those, haskell or agda are more relevant
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2015-03-16T08:51:30Z mbuf: beach mentioned in this channel that Common Lisp has a very very powerful type system, so was wondering how
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2015-03-16T08:52:56Z H4ns: mbuf: you need to ask beach directly how he meant that.
2015-03-16T08:53:32Z mbuf: H4ns, okay
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2015-03-16T08:55:36Z ggole: You can define types that are arbitrary code
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2015-03-16T08:57:56Z lieven: yes but the compiler doesn't do anything with that. defining a type as (satisfies <pred>) and then calling (check-type <pred>) is just a very roundabout way of calling pred yourself
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2015-03-16T08:59:12Z ggole: Yeah. It's "powerful" in one axis (can check anything) and weak in another (type checker can't understand wtf is going on, won't propagate info around for you)
2015-03-16T08:59:43Z Shinmera: The type system has the potential to do a lot, but the focus on it isn't there, so it isn't used much.
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2015-03-16T09:01:46Z lieven: depending on various settings, an implementation can even switch from a 'verify each type assertion' to 'trust each type assertion' mode
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2015-03-16T12:03:54Z myrkraverk: In sbcl, is it possible to (easily) export sb-posix functions and variables, so I don't have to prefix them with sb-posix: all the time?
2015-03-16T12:03:58Z myrkraverk: Is that a good idea?
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2015-03-16T12:04:27Z H4ns: myrkraverk: it is possible if you :use sb-posix in your package definition
2015-03-16T12:04:57Z myrkraverk: Sorry, I don't know about packages (yet).
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2015-03-16T12:05:12Z H4ns: myrkraverk: whether it is a good idea depends on your taste.  i'd say it'd be bad taste, but that is just my opinion.
2015-03-16T12:05:26Z myrkraverk: Fair enough.
2015-03-16T12:05:28Z H4ns: myrkraverk: time to learn about it.
2015-03-16T12:05:34Z myrkraverk: Yeah.
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2015-03-16T12:33:29Z dim: myrkraverk: maybe read http://weitz.de/packages.html first
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2015-03-16T12:34:00Z dim: http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf too
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2015-03-16T12:34:49Z myrkraverk: dim, thanks.
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2015-03-16T12:35:31Z myrkraverk: And btw, do any of you have a handy example of using cl-sql to connect to postgres?
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2015-03-16T12:43:06Z Shinmera: While we're throwing out articles on packages, here's mine https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/265
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2015-03-16T12:44:41Z Shinmera: myrkraverk: As for postgres, you'll probably rather want to look at Postmodern.
2015-03-16T12:45:17Z myrkraverk: Shinmera, hmm, ok.  I was hoping I'd be able to use something I could install with apt-get.
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2015-03-16T12:45:31Z myrkraverk: And while I have sbcl and cl-sql, the two don't seem to be talking ;p
2015-03-16T12:45:31Z Shinmera: You won't want to do that in general
2015-03-16T12:45:41Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell myrkraverk about quicklisp
2015-03-16T12:45:41Z Colleen: myrkraverk, look at "quicklisp": An easy to use and the de facto standard library manager for Common Lisp. Installation instructions can be found on http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2015-03-16T12:45:55Z myrkraverk: thanks Colleen
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2015-03-16T12:46:46Z Shinmera: Postmodern, as well as over one thousand other libraries, are easily fetchable through quicklisp.
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2015-03-16T13:04:01Z dim: myrkraverk: yeah, use Quicklisp and postmodern
2015-03-16T13:04:24Z dim: munksgaard: also look at https://packages.debian.org/source/sid/pgloader
2015-03-16T13:04:35Z dim: https://packages.debian.org/sid/cl-postmodern and al
2015-03-16T13:05:39Z myrkraverk: Hmm, nice, though I seem to have it through quicklisp already.
2015-03-16T13:07:25Z dim: yeah just use Quicklisp for development environment
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2015-03-16T13:08:20Z myrkraverk: Well, if I go through with this, it'll end up in production ;p
2015-03-16T13:10:12Z dim: for production I debian package the thing, you can have a look at pgloader to see how
2015-03-16T13:10:45Z dim: well for "local" production I just compile a self-contained binary image using buildapp (at the moment) and quicklisp, for distribution I use a debian package
2015-03-16T13:11:30Z dim: see also https://github.com/renard/cl-image-builder as an alternative to Xach's buildapp, cl-image-builder is having the tricks right in order to be able to implement a --self-upgrade option easily
2015-03-16T13:11:31Z myrkraverk: Right, well, this is for a local production.  Though I make no promises to keep going with this.
2015-03-16T13:11:43Z myrkraverk: Can postmodern use ~/.pgpass?
2015-03-16T13:12:20Z myrkraverk: (postmodern:query "select version()") <--- works; yay.
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2015-03-16T13:13:50Z myrkraverk: I find no references, on google or the manual; so probably not.
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2015-03-16T13:13:59Z myrkraverk: Which is a bummer.
2015-03-16T13:14:25Z Xach: It could be adapted or wrapped to do so
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2015-03-16T13:15:43Z dim: Postmodern is a pure CL implementation of the protocol, so you can't rely on libpq itself, and ~/.pgpass is a libpq.so thing, myrkraverk
2015-03-16T13:16:14Z dim: it might be easy enough to implement parsing the file in CL and add the feature to Postmodern, after all the specs of the file are not much of a moving target
2015-03-16T13:16:23Z dim: for starters, just implement that in your app
2015-03-16T13:16:25Z myrkraverk: dim, I know ~/.pgpass is a libpq thing, but it *is* possible to reimplement it c;
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2015-03-16T13:16:55Z myrkraverk: Yeah, I might just implement it in my app.
2015-03-16T13:18:19Z dim: have a look at the split-sequence lib, should be dead easy to implement
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2015-03-16T13:21:25Z myrkraverk: *nod*
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2015-03-16T13:41:31Z drmeister: There was nothing wrong with Clasp's generic dispatch.
2015-03-16T13:41:55Z drmeister: There was an :around method bypassing the more specialized DRAW-DATUM methods.
2015-03-16T13:43:03Z drmeister: This is the first time where Common Lisp's ability to have methods all over the place bit me in the backside.
2015-03-16T13:45:25Z drmeister: Fascinating - I've just found a useful bug.
2015-03-16T13:45:29Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/j4KuO4r.png
2015-03-16T13:46:10Z drmeister: My GML rendering code that renders Cleavir/Clasp generated HIR is not connecting functions to each other.
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2015-03-16T13:46:31Z drmeister: So they are showing up as isolated networks.
2015-03-16T13:50:42Z drmeister: Here's one of the smaller ones: http://i.imgur.com/pMgZmZ1.png
2015-03-16T13:51:47Z drmeister: The "enter" is at the bottom right - follow the white boxes through the graph - that is the execution path.  The colored boxes are data
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2015-03-16T13:55:23Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2015-03-16T13:56:11Z Shinmera: myrkraverk: You might also be interested in reading a primer on ASDF https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/267
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2015-03-16T14:00:40Z myrkraverk: Shinmera, thank you.
2015-03-16T14:02:36Z drmeister: Hello nyef
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2015-03-16T14:05:44Z nyef: I've got a bit of an odd inversion-of-control situation, and I'm somewhat stuck for a name. I have a function which does "stuff", and I'm currently wrapping a bunch of environment-setup forms (binding *standard-output*, setting up handler-binds, stuff like that) around the calls to it, but it's "supposed" to be a top-level entry point.
2015-03-16T14:06:35Z nyef: What I want to do is have a parameter that is a function of one argument (defaulting to #'funcall) that does all of the dynamic environment setup.
2015-03-16T14:06:53Z Shinmera: call-with-stuff-bound?
2015-03-16T14:07:47Z Shinmera: Or are you asking about the naming of that parameter? I'm confused now.
2015-03-16T14:07:59Z nyef: Naming the parameter.
2015-03-16T14:08:21Z nyef: Yeah, the values would be call-with-whatever-bound sort of thing, but probably also closures.
2015-03-16T14:08:27Z Shinmera: environment-invocator could be a candidate.
2015-03-16T14:09:11Z Shinmera: Though I can't say I've encountered your situation anywhere before.
2015-03-16T14:09:28Z nyef: Yeah, as I said, "odd inversion-of-control situation".
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2015-03-16T14:10:10Z nyef: environment-invocator seems weak, as a name, partly because it's so long, and partly because the environmental aspect is almost ancillary to its purpose.
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2015-03-16T14:10:19Z Shinmera: I think just INVOCATOR would be good.
2015-03-16T14:10:35Z Shinmera: or DISPATCHER, maybe
2015-03-16T14:10:53Z nyef: INVOCATOR is weak because it's mechanism, not policy...
2015-03-16T14:11:14Z nyef: DISPATCHER implies that it's called multiple times with various inputs to make decisions on...
2015-03-16T14:11:24Z Shinmera: Right, I see your conundrum.
2015-03-16T14:11:28Z nyef: ... Maybe POLICY-CONTROL ?
2015-03-16T14:11:37Z Shinmera: That doesn't imply the funcalling
2015-03-16T14:12:04Z nyef: Funcalling is mechanism. I'm planning on having functions that produce closures to pass here.
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2015-03-16T14:13:12Z nyef: So, (defun log-to (output-file &optional (next-policy-control #'funcall)) (lambda (thunk) (with-open-file ... (funcall next-policy-control thunk))))
2015-03-16T14:13:51Z nyef: ... Clearly, a variation on CPS.
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2015-03-16T14:15:06Z Adlai: what about some variation of "wrap"?
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2015-03-16T14:17:23Z nyef: Again, I'm looking more for the why rather than the how.
2015-03-16T14:18:20Z nyef: I think I'm going to go with policy-control, at least for the moment. I can change it later if a better name appears.
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2015-03-16T14:30:30Z drmeister: Damn!  This is awesome!    http://i.imgur.com/R3N5c6F.png
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2015-03-16T14:31:16Z drmeister: This is HIR of two functions joined by an "unwind" instruction.  There is a bug in how Clasp is interpreting this HIR and it's in the nodes joining the two circles.
2015-03-16T14:31:49Z drmeister: This totally validates my last two days of effort to develop better ways to represent large HIR flow graphs.
2015-03-16T14:32:18Z Shinmera: Is the circular arrangement because there's actual circles or is that just part of the presentation?
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2015-03-16T14:32:58Z drmeister: Here's a blowup of the offending region.  The yellow symbol is the problem.
2015-03-16T14:32:59Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/B6NjH0g.png
2015-03-16T14:33:43Z drmeister: The circular arrangement is just part of the presentation - it's a cluster of instructions that are more tightly coupled to each other.
2015-03-16T14:33:57Z Shinmera: Right.
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2015-03-16T14:51:55Z drmeister: Hmm, my interpretation of the problem is evolving.
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2015-03-16T14:53:11Z drmeister: I think I have an "unwind" instruction from function X that is unwinding into an instruction of function Y that has no predecessor in function Y.    So Clasp is assuming the target instruction in Y belongs to function X.
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2015-03-16T14:53:46Z drmeister: That's my current hypothesis - what to do about it - I don't know.
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2015-03-16T15:41:52Z sebboh: The following functions are used in some library I'm looking at but I don't see where they are defun'd.  nodes-of, edges-of, add-edge, handle-object.  Is this some CLOS thing?
2015-03-16T15:43:30Z Shinmera: What do you think CLOS is?
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2015-03-16T15:44:05Z bobbysmith007: sebboh: it could be macros that expand that expand to those definitions or slot accessors defined on defclass or defstruct
2015-03-16T15:44:49Z sebboh: I think it's a convention for doing OO stuff in CL.  But 'convention' might be weak, since it's a formally defined convention.
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2015-03-16T15:44:59Z Shinmera: It's not a convention at all.
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2015-03-16T15:45:38Z Shinmera: It's a system to support object-oriented programming in the form of generic dispatch and is part of Common Lisp.
2015-03-16T15:45:52Z Shinmera: The functions you mentioned sound like something from a graph library more than anything.
2015-03-16T15:46:11Z sebboh: Shinmera: this conversation doesn't seem to be leading the direction that I'm inclined to go.  My goal is to find out what (nodes-of ...) does. I'm new^Wslow. :)
2015-03-16T15:46:27Z Shinmera: Yes and we can't tell you because we can't see onto your screen.
2015-03-16T15:46:36Z sebboh: Shinmera: indeed, they are used in CL-DOT.
2015-03-16T15:47:08Z bobbysmith007: sebboh: nodes-of probably retrieves a list / vector of nodes from some existing node instance.  Node will probably be defined as a class or struct
2015-03-16T15:47:30Z Bicyclidine: it looks like nodes-of is an accessor of the graph class.
2015-03-16T15:47:31Z bobbysmith007: sebboh: https://github.com/michaelw/cl-dot/blob/master/cl-dot.lisp#L19
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2015-03-16T15:49:14Z Shinmera: M-. would've told you where the definition is at least.
2015-03-16T15:50:22Z sebboh: bobbysmith007: so... defclass looks at :accessor and takes the value as the name of a function that it will automatically define... and so.. (nodes-of ...) expects an object of type graph?
2015-03-16T15:50:36Z bobbysmith007: sebboh: exactly it
2015-03-16T15:50:56Z Shinmera: NODES-OF can potentially expect an object of any type it pleases.
2015-03-16T15:51:19Z bobbysmith007: sebboh: nodes-of is generic, it can accept any type, but will throw errors for undefined ones. It is defined for graph by defclass
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2015-03-16T15:51:57Z bobbysmith007: I dont see other usages so probably only defined for graph
2015-03-16T15:52:02Z sebboh: How does defclass know that I didn't already define my own nodes-of?  Oh, I provided the name nodes-of to defclass, that'd be my fault then. Hm.  There are some default names, right?  Where do I find a list of things that defclass does by default?
2015-03-16T15:52:18Z sebboh: Okay.
2015-03-16T15:52:20Z Shinmera: clhs defclass
2015-03-16T15:52:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
2015-03-16T15:52:21Z bobbysmith007: defclass will overwrite it if you defined a method alread
2015-03-16T15:52:29Z sebboh: Okay.
2015-03-16T15:53:28Z Bicyclidine: accessors are defined as methods. if it already exists as a generic function, it'll just define a new method on it, so the function can be used on instances of multiple classes. though that's probably not the case here.
2015-03-16T15:53:31Z bobbysmith007: sebboh: there are no default accessors, by default, classes are accessible by slot-value which is not nearly as extensible.  Generally good form would be to define accessors
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2015-03-16T15:54:46Z Shinmera: The PCL chapters about CLOS explain all this quite neatly.
2015-03-16T15:54:59Z sebboh: "accessible by slot-value" means some kind of (get-slot-value my-object :the-slot-I-want), yes?
2015-03-16T15:55:26Z Shinmera: (slot-value object 'slot-symbol)
2015-03-16T15:55:39Z sebboh: Shinmera: since I started this conversation with "is this a clos thing?" it's to be assumed that I haven't read them yet.  But thank you for the pointer.
2015-03-16T15:56:01Z Shinmera: I know. I'm telling you to go read them.
2015-03-16T15:56:51Z Wizord: So I wanted to ask if there are lisp alternatives of metamath (http://us.metamath.org/), but then I found Nqthm /q
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2015-03-16T15:59:46Z sebboh: There must be a (defclass object ...) somewhere.  Is it part of my CL implementation (sbcl)?
2015-03-16T15:59:56Z sebboh: that's object, sic.
2015-03-16T16:00:24Z Shinmera: DEFCLASS is part of Common Lisp.
2015-03-16T16:00:33Z Shinmera: So, yes.
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2015-03-16T16:01:14Z sebboh: the specific defclass for 'object' ?  Or the defun(defmacro?) for 'defclass' ?
2015-03-16T16:01:19Z Shinmera: Unless you mean the class definition of a class called "object", in which case no.
2015-03-16T16:01:25Z sebboh: yes, that one.
2015-03-16T16:01:39Z Shinmera: CLHS defines a "standard-object" class though.
2015-03-16T16:01:44Z Shinmera: clhs standard-object
2015-03-16T16:01:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_std_ob.htm
2015-03-16T16:02:06Z sebboh: Thank you!
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2015-03-16T16:23:59Z sebboh: Oh, a few of the defuns I couldn't find weren't accessors or anything like that--they were actually simply defined via labels, which is like flet.
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2015-03-16T16:24:58Z Shinmera: labels allows reference to other functions in the labels definition, including the functions themselves. So labels-bound functions can be recursive, flet ones cannot.
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2015-03-16T16:25:28Z Shinmera: Don't ask me why labels is called labels.
2015-03-16T16:26:00Z Adlai: the labels are established for the extent of the entire form; flet, otoh, behaves like let, in that the bindings are not visible within the forms used to generate their values
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2015-03-16T16:35:54Z sebboh: Is there a function in CL which will "search and replace" all the NILs in a list with a symbol of my choosing?  Something like (search-replace :mybar '(foo NIL bar)) --> (foo mybar bar . mybar) ?
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2015-03-16T16:38:12Z splittist: sebboh: something that will substitute new-item for old-item in a sequence?
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2015-03-16T16:38:58Z sebboh: Yes.  Well, I'd like to learn about that, yes.  Even though I figured out a moment ago that what I was looking for isn't actually what I need.  But meanwhile, yes. :)
2015-03-16T16:39:05Z Asgeir: #'substitute
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2015-03-16T16:39:52Z Asgeir: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_sbs_s.htm
2015-03-16T16:40:38Z sebboh: Asgeir: thank you.  And I got a local copy of clhs.  ...Sometimes I can't find a thing in the master index, but this time I was able it. :)
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2015-03-16T16:40:46Z splittist: sebboh: but note the difference in the treatment of the final cons cell.
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2015-03-16T16:49:38Z sebboh: The prefix n in the name of a standard CL function/macro frequently indicates that said function/macro is descructive?
2015-03-16T16:49:45Z sebboh: What is the etymology?
2015-03-16T16:50:30Z antoszka: non-consing
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2015-03-16T16:53:32Z sebboh: In order to be non-destructive you probably have to allocate a new cons-cell or two, so "non-consing" might be descructive.  Okay.
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2015-03-16T16:54:35Z antoszka: sebboh: yep.
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2015-03-16T17:05:47Z sebboh: Using CL-DOT, when I feed cl-dot:generate-graph-from-roots something like '(nil . nil), I get a graph with two nodes: "cell 1" and nil.  Two edges connect cell 1 to nil. As expected, but not what I want. When I comment out this line https://github.com/michaelw/cl-dot/blob/master/cl-dot.lisp#L208, then I get three nodes: "cell 1" and two nils. Great! But "cell 1"
2015-03-16T17:06:11Z sebboh: 's two edges both point at the second nil, instead of one at the first and one at the second.
2015-03-16T17:08:02Z sebboh: End goal is to programatically generate box-and-stick diagrams.
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2015-03-16T17:11:12Z sebboh: (cl-dot requires some assembly to use; I used this glue, hardly modified: https://github.com/michaelw/cl-dot/blob/master/docs/manual.texi#L281
2015-03-16T17:11:14Z sebboh: )
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2015-03-16T17:32:33Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-03-16T17:33:41Z Shinmera: Hullo beach.
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2015-03-16T17:35:55Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-03-16T17:40:58Z Adlai: hallo beach.
2015-03-16T17:42:39Z beach: So I guess I should use CL-DOT for drawing my HIR diagrams rather than using FORMAT.
2015-03-16T17:43:13Z Shinmera: I tried it for a teensy bit once and it ended up being easier to just use FORMAT.
2015-03-16T17:43:21Z beach: Oh! :(
2015-03-16T17:43:21Z Shinmera shrugs
2015-03-16T17:43:57Z beach: Do you have any insight as to why it was easier to use FORMAT?
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2015-03-16T17:44:39Z Shinmera: I couldn't figure out how to do the representation of the structure into the class-based format it wants
2015-03-16T17:44:56Z beach: I see.
2015-03-16T17:45:02Z Shinmera: I just wanted a quick thing to test something out, so I couldn't be bothered to dive into the documentation.
2015-03-16T17:45:08Z nyef: First plausibility that comes to mind is much lower chance of an impedance mismatch, yeah.
2015-03-16T17:45:18Z beach: Hmm.
2015-03-16T17:45:44Z beach: Well, I think I'll give it a shot, keeping my existing code with FORMAT for comparison.
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2015-03-16T17:47:30Z jasom: Is there an easy way to tell from the hyperspec what is evaluated and what isn't?
2015-03-16T17:47:49Z jasom: e.g. in defpackage is conc-name evaluated or not?
2015-03-16T17:47:49Z beach: jasom: yes.
2015-03-16T17:48:09Z beach: It usually says "Evaluated" or "Not evaluated" :)
2015-03-16T17:48:36Z jasom: well I know that slot-name isn't  evaluated, but it doesn't say "Not evaluated"
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2015-03-16T17:48:43Z beach: DEFPACKAGE?  Sounds more like DEFSTRUCT.
2015-03-16T17:48:48Z jasom: defstruct, sorry
2015-03-16T17:49:09Z jasom: I type DEFPACKAGE a lot more often than I type DEFSTRUCT
2015-03-16T17:50:13Z jasom: and it appears that conc-name isn't evaluated, but the only thing that says "not evaluated" is documentation
2015-03-16T17:50:52Z drmeister: beach: Are you going to be up for another hour?   I'm running a test where I generate the annotated instructions in every basic block and the GML network graph at the same time.   I should be able to match up the offending symbols to instructions to basic-blocks to owners.
2015-03-16T17:51:14Z beach: With LOOP, DEFSTRUCT is one of the things that are not very well documented by the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
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2015-03-16T17:51:33Z beach: drmeister: I am afraid my wife is going to call me to dinner any minute.
2015-03-16T17:51:43Z Bicyclidine: i don't think anything in defstruct is evaluated immediately
2015-03-16T17:51:46Z beach: But I might come back and check after dinner, in say 40 minutes.
2015-03-16T17:51:50Z drmeister: beach: That takes precedent.
2015-03-16T17:52:22Z drmeister: Ok, I'm going for a swim - I'll be back in an hour - it will run during that time and may or may not generate a helpful result.
2015-03-16T17:52:35Z drmeister: That's why "don't wait up".   I'll send you an email with the result.
2015-03-16T17:52:53Z beach: drmeister: OK.
2015-03-16T17:53:26Z foom: k
2015-03-16T17:53:29Z foom: oops
2015-03-16T17:53:53Z beach: Note to self: for Common Lisp version 2: specify what is evaluated and what isn't in DEFSTRUCT.
2015-03-16T17:54:30Z Bicyclidine: in everything, hopefully
2015-03-16T17:55:15Z beach: Right.
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2015-03-16T17:56:53Z jasom: Aren't we already on version 2 of common lisp?
2015-03-16T17:57:40Z Adlai: jasom: right before :conc-name, "No part of any of these options is evaluated"
2015-03-16T17:58:12Z jasom: Adlai: oh, thanks.
2015-03-16T17:58:20Z beach: jasom: I don't think the Common Lisp HyperSpec recognizes any prior version.
2015-03-16T17:58:43Z Adlai: you could call it version 3, with the ANSI spec following cltl1/2
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2015-03-16T17:59:15Z beach: What to call it is probably the least of my problems.
2015-03-16T17:59:15Z Adlai: or version (exp 1) if it doesn't warrant a major version bump
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2015-03-16T18:00:27Z Bicyclidine: oi
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2015-03-16T18:01:20Z Adlai: unless shaven, yaks shed by the bikeload.
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2015-03-16T18:04:30Z jasom: hmm, most-negative-fixnum never need be smaller than -2^15; for practical purposes, is it safe to assume that (- array-dimension-limit) is a fixnum?
2015-03-16T18:05:10Z jasom: With tagged twos-complement integers, it should be true
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2015-03-16T18:06:01Z beach: It looks like CL-DOT traverses the graph using recursion.
2015-03-16T18:06:19Z beach: If so, I can't use it, or drmeister's graphs will blow the stack again.
2015-03-16T18:06:32Z jasom: !! those are big graphs
2015-03-16T18:06:48Z Shinmera: Monstrously big.
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2015-03-16T18:06:52Z beach: Mostly deep, I would think.
2015-03-16T18:07:10Z beach: They represent programs, so its is mostly a sequence of instructions.
2015-03-16T18:07:10Z Bicyclidine: jasom: i'm curious where in the world - array-dimension-limit even comes up
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2015-03-16T18:07:26Z jasom: Bicyclidine: need to store the difference between two array dimensions?
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2015-03-16T18:07:44Z Bicyclidine: ...i suppose that makes sense, yeah
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2015-03-16T18:14:45Z drmeister: I'm still working on it.   Damn!  The basic blocks are fine!
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2015-03-16T18:15:47Z drmeister: Here's a zoom in on a problem area:  http://i.imgur.com/IZpzJfk.png
2015-03-16T18:16:17Z drmeister: Symbol G9385 is a problem symbol - alloca(d) in one function and used in another.
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2015-03-16T18:18:54Z drmeister: It is the output of instruction 4024 and the input of instruction 4025
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2015-03-16T18:19:36Z drmeister: I misspoke: It is the output of instruction 4024 and the input of instruction 4027!!!
2015-03-16T18:20:17Z drmeister: ARGH:   It is the output of instruction 4025 and the input of instruction 4027
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2015-03-16T18:20:22Z drmeister: Sheesh
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2015-03-16T18:20:58Z drmeister: Here are the instructions for the basic block that owns those instructions:
2015-03-16T18:21:01Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/U5bN4VEa
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2015-03-16T18:26:10Z jasom sometimes wishes you could define a function and a macro with the same name, and the macro would get used except when in a FUNCTION special form
2015-03-16T18:26:37Z drmeister: The two instructions that are connected to that value are both in the same basic block.
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2015-03-16T18:27:43Z drmeister: The thing here is the ALLOCA is ending up in one function and the two instructions that reference the ALLOCA are both in same function - just not the one with the ALLOCA.
2015-03-16T18:28:56Z drmeister: The ALLOCA is being misplaced - not the instructions.
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2015-03-16T18:30:46Z ggole: Are the references in an inner function?
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2015-03-16T18:46:06Z drmeister: ggole: I can't figure that out right now - I'm working with very large graphs.
2015-03-16T18:47:01Z drmeister: The references and the alloca are in functions that are generated one right after the other.  Which is generated first and which second - I don't know.
2015-03-16T18:47:21Z drmeister: If I could have this throw an error earlier I'd be much better off.
2015-03-16T18:48:17Z drmeister: beach: Are you still online?
2015-03-16T18:48:34Z drmeister: I'm looking at the DEFCLASS datum.
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2015-03-16T18:49:00Z drmeister: It has slots for both defining-instructions and for using-instructions - I did not know that was available.
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2015-03-16T18:49:51Z drmeister: Do those correspond to the instructions that output the datum and input the datum respectively?
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2015-03-16T18:51:28Z drmeister: I guess so.
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2015-03-16T18:57:26Z mood: CL-PPCRE doesn't have something like Ruby's \G, which matches the end of the previous match, right?
2015-03-16T18:58:51Z ggole: drmeister: sounds a bit like broken closure conversion
2015-03-16T18:59:00Z ggole: Of course it could be any number of other things.
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2015-03-16T19:08:35Z mood: To answer my own question: No it doesn't.
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2015-03-16T19:16:10Z myrkraverk: Why would drakma fail at ssl?
2015-03-16T19:16:13Z myrkraverk: http://paste.lisp.org/+34WI
2015-03-16T19:16:32Z myrkraverk: I thought quicklisp installed cl-ssl as well.
2015-03-16T19:16:59Z mood: myrkraverk: It does, CL+SSL is triggering the error
2015-03-16T19:17:25Z myrkraverk: Any idea on how to find out what error it is?
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2015-03-16T19:17:36Z Adlai: myrkraverk: that's an ssl protocol error, not lisp's fault
2015-03-16T19:18:29Z myrkraverk: Hmm, I'm sure it's on my end and not google's c;
2015-03-16T19:18:41Z Adlai: do you get it consistently?
2015-03-16T19:18:53Z Adlai: i get similar errors sporadically in an app that makes hundreds of ssl requests per minute
2015-03-16T19:18:58Z myrkraverk: Yes.
2015-03-16T19:19:08Z Adlai: (sporadically = less than once a day)
2015-03-16T19:19:14Z myrkraverk: I've only tried about 3 times, and I get it always.
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2015-03-16T19:20:21Z myrkraverk: And restarting sbcl does not help.
2015-03-16T19:20:22Z Xach: Do you have a network proxy?
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2015-03-16T19:21:17Z myrkraverk: Not that I know of.  For the record, curl handles https just fine on the command line.
2015-03-16T19:21:51Z myrkraverk: So maybe the ssl library sbcl is using is malformed somehow?
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2015-03-16T19:22:13Z Xach: It is using the system ssl library, probably the same as curl.
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2015-03-16T19:22:55Z myrkraverk: probably, but not necessarily.
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2015-03-16T19:25:19Z myrkraverk: Hmm, linux' pldd seems "unreliable" or too slow.
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2015-03-16T19:25:35Z myrkraverk: Or not the same as illumos' at least.
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2015-03-16T19:25:51Z myrkraverk: Is there another good way to ask sbcl what ssl library it is using?
2015-03-16T19:26:23Z Xach: There's a good way.
2015-03-16T19:26:25Z Xach checks his notes
2015-03-16T19:26:57Z mood: myrkraverk: You could try cl+ssl::ssl-get-version to get at the version, at least
2015-03-16T19:27:35Z Xach: myrkraverk: sb-sys:*shared-objects* is one way. not sure if that's good, as sb-sys is private.
2015-03-16T19:27:36Z mood: Oh wait, no
2015-03-16T19:28:31Z myrkraverk: :PATHNAME #P"libssl.so.1.0.0"
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2015-03-16T19:28:46Z myrkraverk: So at least that's settled; it's the same as curl's as far as I can tell.
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2015-03-16T19:31:27Z myrkraverk: wget gave an interesting error: Could not seed PRNG; consider using --random-file.
2015-03-16T19:31:31Z myrkraverk: Maybe that's the issue.
2015-03-16T19:32:03Z Xach: do you have a fancy operating system?
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2015-03-16T19:33:08Z myrkraverk: This is a linux vps.
2015-03-16T19:33:17Z myrkraverk: Maybe something is misconfigured.
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2015-03-16T19:33:57Z beach: drmeister: Just for a minute.  I need to go very soon.
2015-03-16T19:34:05Z drmeister: Sure
2015-03-16T19:34:08Z drmeister: What's up.
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2015-03-16T19:34:19Z myrkraverk: ls -lh /dev/random
2015-03-16T19:34:19Z myrkraverk: crw------- 1 root root 1, 8 Feb 18 17:56 /dev/random
2015-03-16T19:34:24Z myrkraverk: I *guess* that's the problem.
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2015-03-16T19:35:08Z beach: drmeister: You need to call a function to make sure the information about users and creators of data is up to date.
2015-03-16T19:35:14Z beach: I forget the name of it.
2015-03-16T19:35:38Z myrkraverk: Yup, fixed with chmod.
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2015-03-16T19:36:51Z beach: drmeister: cleavir-ir:reinitialize-data I believe.
2015-03-16T19:37:23Z beach: drmeister: Then every datum should have a list of instructions that write it and a list of instructions that read it.
2015-03-16T19:37:24Z drmeister: I give it the initial-instruction I presume?
2015-03-16T19:37:33Z beach: Yes.
2015-03-16T19:37:40Z drmeister: Ok thanks
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2015-03-16T19:37:59Z beach: drmeister: It might be recursive :(  I haven't fixed all instances of traversals.
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2015-03-16T19:39:11Z beach: drmeister: I need to go.  Talk tomorrow UTC+1.
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2015-03-16T19:40:47Z drmeister: Talk later
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2015-03-16T20:22:02Z Ralt: hi
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2015-03-16T20:23:08Z oleo: sup
2015-03-16T20:23:39Z clintm: how-d
2015-03-16T20:26:13Z Ralt: simple question: I have really no way to run reduce on vectors?
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2015-03-16T20:26:52Z Xach: Ralt: you really do.
2015-03-16T20:27:17Z Xach: Ralt: what prompts the question?
2015-03-16T20:27:23Z clintm: Ralt: I don't know in that specific case, but if CL has taught me anything, it's that there's always a way.
2015-03-16T20:27:54Z Ralt: Xach: I have a vector of numbers, and wants to do (reduce #'+ vec) and be done with it
2015-03-16T20:28:05Z Xach: Ralt: ok, that is what you do.
2015-03-16T20:28:12Z Bicyclidine: reduce works on a sequence fine
2015-03-16T20:28:25Z Bicyclidine: (reduce #'+ #(1 2 3)) => 6
2015-03-16T20:28:25Z Ralt: oh duh.
2015-03-16T20:28:27Z Ralt: sorry.
2015-03-16T20:28:32Z Xach: Ralt: I am dying to know the context!
2015-03-16T20:28:39Z Ralt: mapcar doesn't work on vectors
2015-03-16T20:28:46Z Xach: True. MAP does, though.
2015-03-16T20:28:49Z Ralt: thought reduce wouldn't either...
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2015-03-16T20:29:18Z Xach: Ralt: I know it's a small thing, but the phrasing of the question as a negative assertion to be contradicted bugs me a little.
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2015-03-16T20:29:55Z Ralt: I should've said: "is there a way to run reduce on vectors"?
2015-03-16T20:30:14Z Xach: parfait
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2015-03-16T21:07:02Z vr-rm: It looks like gitorious is going away in a couple of months.  I've noticed that a lot of Common Lisp projects are hosted there.  Is there any effort underway to migrate those packages to new homes?  Esp. given the intermittent way many projects are maintained. (even somewhat popular ones in quicklisp.)
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2015-03-16T21:08:52Z jasom: vr-rm: I assume they will auto-import to gitlab, but I might be wrong?
2015-03-16T21:09:29Z jasom: vr-rm: also Xach et. al. maintain a github project for abandoned projects that are important to other systems in quicklisp
2015-03-16T21:09:43Z jasom: https://github.com/sharplispers
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2015-03-16T21:13:06Z vr-rm: jason: The press release doesn't explicitly say that unmigrated repositories will be deleted, but it does seem implied: https://about.gitlab.com/2015/03/03/gitlab-acquires-gitorious/
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2015-03-16T21:15:10Z vr-rm: jason: I wasn't aware of sharplispers.  That's exactly the sort of thing I was wondering about.
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2015-03-16T21:15:39Z jasom: vr-rm: yeah, after reading that, it does look like a manual import is needed
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2015-03-16T21:17:49Z LiamH is surprised to see split-sequence is "abandoned or semi-abandoned"
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2015-03-16T21:54:50Z Bicyclidine: is the only documentation for cffi-grovel those three pages on cffi's site?
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2015-03-16T22:02:03Z Ralt: I didn't really understand how to use cffi-grovel :/
2015-03-16T22:02:07Z Ralt: just went with a basic C program using sizeof() and offsetof() for the structs I needed...
2015-03-16T22:02:24Z Ralt: afaiu, cffi-grovel lets you inspect C structs right?
2015-03-16T22:02:56Z Bicyclidine: I thought it parsed C files to give you CFFI definitions, but that does not appear to be the case.
2015-03-16T22:03:47Z Ralt: > That is, it grovels through the system headers, getting information about types and structures, so you don't have to.
2015-03-16T22:03:57Z Ralt: isn't it just that?
2015-03-16T22:04:03Z Bicyclidine: Yes, but then the example involves writing definitions apparently manually.
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2015-03-16T22:05:56Z Bicyclidine: Rather it seems, for example, that I give the groveler information like "there's a C constant named so-and-so", and then it goes and finds the constant's value.
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2015-03-16T22:08:39Z nyef: Yeah, that's typical for a groveller. It writes a basic C program using sizeof() and offsetof() for structs, and so on.
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2015-03-16T22:38:04Z Ralt: nyef: heh, so writing small C programs like this is basically writing my own groveller :-)
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2015-03-16T22:38:17Z nyef: Ralt: Exactly.
2015-03-16T22:38:22Z Ralt: I have to say that cffi is *very* convenient in that I can only specify the struct fields I need with their offsets
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2015-03-16T22:40:31Z Bicyclidine: well, anyway, is there more comprehensive documentation or is it down to the source? from what i can see it doesn't handle const?
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2015-03-16T22:41:18Z nyef: ... It SHOULD handle const. I'm fairly sure that sb-grovel does.
2015-03-16T22:42:39Z Bicyclidine: from what i can tell from the groveller's source, the "constant" syntax only does preprocessor defines.
2015-03-16T22:42:56Z Bicyclidine: oh, maybe i can use cvar.
2015-03-16T22:47:03Z Bicyclidine: er, no, that won't include the value, huh.
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2015-03-16T22:48:25Z drmeister: Finally - I found the problem
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2015-03-16T22:50:08Z drmeister: Incorrect ownership was being assigned to datums in rare circumstances.
2015-03-16T22:50:47Z drmeister: Ownership would flow through unwind instructions.
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2015-03-16T23:32:58Z jasom: well "const" doesn't define a compile-time constant (at least up through c99)
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2015-03-16T23:48:34Z digiorgi: hi how can i get (my-map (lambda double (x) (* 2 x)) '(1 2 3 4)) => (2 4 6 8)
2015-03-16T23:48:46Z digiorgi: exist my-map?
2015-03-16T23:48:52Z digiorgi: equivalent
2015-03-16T23:49:23Z _death: mapcar.. also lambda doesn't take a name
2015-03-16T23:50:38Z digiorgi: jap, thanks map do it
2015-03-16T23:50:42Z digiorgi: mapcar*
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2015-03-16T23:59:35Z jasom found an error about commonlisp in the emacs manual.