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2015-03-15T00:53:51Z ben_vulpes: this is good to know.
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2015-03-15T00:54:02Z ben_vulpes: i think that i'll just stick to the 'test' db instead of trying anything clever.
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2015-03-15T01:19:49Z Adlai finds himself wishing for #'no-primary-method... "In standard method combination, if there is an applicable method but no applicable primary method, an error is signaled." is rather restrictive, no?
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2015-03-15T04:10:10Z clintm: ben_vulpes: fwiw, we use v4 uuids for uniqueness.
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2015-03-15T04:41:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-03-15T04:41:24Z clintm: 'morning, beach
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2015-03-15T04:43:32Z guicho: it is fun to see someone saying good morning in IRC every day. good morning.
2015-03-15T04:44:16Z clintm: agreed :) everyone else here is going to bed right about the time beach says good morning in #lisp.  You can set your watch by it. :)
2015-03-15T04:44:29Z beach: guicho: It's an Emacs `abbrev' so that I don't have to type it.  I type "gme" instead of Good morning everyone!
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2015-03-15T04:46:11Z guicho: Its 2pm in Japan. Time to grab some coffee.
2015-03-15T04:46:17Z beach: clintm: That's just because you believe that most people in #lisp are in north America.  I don't think that's true.  However it's a bit early for other Europeans.
2015-03-15T04:47:44Z guicho: where are you beach?
2015-03-15T04:47:46Z clintm: No, no, I don't assume anything on IRC.
2015-03-15T04:48:13Z beach: guicho: France.  You can tell if you do /whois beach.
2015-03-15T04:48:47Z Zhivago: Just say "hello, you bastards", and you'll be time invariant.
2015-03-15T04:48:47Z beach: clintm: Wow, so you assume that wherever people live, they go to bed when it is night in the US?
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2015-03-15T04:49:27Z beach: ... worse than I thought.
2015-03-15T04:49:28Z clintm: beach: no, I don't assume anything.  Like I said.
2015-03-15T04:49:38Z guicho: add another abbrev to your emacs: hyb
2015-03-15T04:50:02Z Zhivago: Perhaps he was asserting to beach that it is morning where he is.
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2015-03-15T04:51:13Z clintm: people here are heading to bed (here being in my house) when you usually say good morning.  It stands to reason then that you are in europe or austrailia or somewhere far from here.
2015-03-15T04:51:24Z beach: Back to Lisp, I guess.  Today I need to make Graphviz drawing of HIR graphs iterative rather than recursive because it blows the stack of Clasp.
2015-03-15T04:51:27Z clintm: I wasn't making fun of you.  Not sure where this is coming from.
2015-03-15T04:51:37Z Zhivago: clintm: I suspect that beach inferred that 'here' is #lisp.
2015-03-15T04:51:54Z beach: clintm: I misunderstood "here" to mean #lisp.  Sorry about that.
2015-03-15T04:51:55Z brucem: Zhivago: good morning, bastard.
2015-03-15T04:52:09Z clintm: ohhh... here = lisp... well, that'd be a noob irc mistake :)
2015-03-15T04:52:12Z clintm: of me
2015-03-15T04:52:24Z Zhivago: brucem: Good morning, old duffer.
2015-03-15T04:56:04Z beach: clintm: For your information, I also have abbrevs `gafe' and `geve' for other times of day.
2015-03-15T04:56:25Z Zhivago: What about elevenses?
2015-03-15T04:56:30Z beach: I am still puzzled why so few people use abbrevs.
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2015-03-15T04:56:47Z Zhivago: IUAATT.
2015-03-15T04:57:33Z beach: I add abbrevs as needed.  I haven't needed that one yet.
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2015-03-15T04:58:13Z Zhivago: Probably because there are relatively few economical ones.
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2015-03-15T05:05:03Z beach: Yesterday, I was toying with the idea of replacing the compiler of (say) CLISP or ECL with a Cleavir-based compiler.  Now I am thinking that these systems are written the way they are for reasons of bootstrapping.  It made me more interested in what considerations go into bootstrapping and the consequences of such considerations.
2015-03-15T05:09:08Z Zhivago: Use cross-compilation instead?
2015-03-15T05:09:29Z beach: That's one way yes.
2015-03-15T05:10:20Z beach: What I was thinking was that there is this idea that you must be able to bootstrap from C or C++, plus "standard" tools.  But that's kind of an arbitrary choice.
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2015-03-15T05:13:00Z beach: Assuming we accept the arbitrary choice, then perhaps the best thing would be to write as little code as possible in order obtain a Common Lisp system (which can be very slow), then to bootstrap the "real" Common Lisp system using the slow one.
2015-03-15T05:13:37Z beach: Then something like lisp500 might be interesting.
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2015-03-15T05:16:10Z Adlai: guicho: also, http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
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2015-03-15T05:19:34Z guicho: Adlai: thanks.
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2015-03-15T05:20:16Z Adlai: welcome!
2015-03-15T05:20:23Z guicho: I'm curious how the nothern russian people give greetings to each other when the day is totally night or totally day
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2015-03-15T05:21:17Z guicho: "Hi, another good night"?
2015-03-15T05:21:31Z guicho: "Hi, another good evening"?
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2015-03-15T05:25:49Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-03-15T05:26:25Z beach: drmeister: I will deal with the Graphviz drawing things as soon as I wake up.
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2015-03-15T05:26:41Z beach: drmeister: Today is a bit tight though, because I will have guests for lunch.
2015-03-15T05:27:12Z drmeister: beach: Thanks - it could help me debug this.  Bleh.
2015-03-15T05:29:21Z beach: drmeister: Careful not to jump to conclusions about the problem until you understand the reasons for it.
2015-03-15T05:29:34Z drmeister: When I bind a lot of specials things blow up.
2015-03-15T05:29:40Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146263
2015-03-15T05:30:01Z drmeister: I know that.
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2015-03-15T05:30:49Z beach: Binding many variables shouldn't be a problem.  Unless "many" means tens of thousands.
2015-03-15T05:31:40Z drmeister: I can't bind more than 17 special variables using the code above without blowing the stack when I render the flow graph of the HIR
2015-03-15T05:32:07Z beach: Oh, that's different.  I will fix the drawing problem.
2015-03-15T05:33:46Z drmeister: Right - so I've been trying to debug the problem without it.
2015-03-15T05:34:28Z beach: Do you want me to try to fix it ASAP?
2015-03-15T05:34:58Z beach: I am not quite awake yet, so I might make mistakes.
2015-03-15T05:35:06Z beach: It is probably better to wait a bit.
2015-03-15T05:36:17Z drmeister: No - take your time.
2015-03-15T05:37:03Z drmeister: Sorry - I'm exhausted.  I've been trying to figure out why when I compile COMPILE-FILE-TO-MODULE it crashes.  I've been working on it for two days.
2015-03-15T05:37:55Z drmeister: I have a feeling it's something to do with special variables and load-time values.   There is a funny pattern to the HIR that is generated for the code above.
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2015-03-15T05:38:37Z drmeister: The first inner function builds a large closed over environment and each function further in generates a slightly smaller one.
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2015-03-15T05:39:59Z drmeister: This isn't zoomable - but it shows the pattern
2015-03-15T05:40:00Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/s46EFI4.png
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2015-03-15T05:40:47Z beach: drmeister: That's not surprising if you have many special variables.
2015-03-15T05:40:53Z beach: drmeister: And it is nothing to worry about either.
2015-03-15T05:41:06Z drmeister: It crashes my compiler.
2015-03-15T05:41:41Z beach: Then there is a problem with the compiler, not with that pattern.
2015-03-15T05:41:47Z drmeister: Sorry - I don't have a clear idea yet what is going wrong.   I'm going to get some sleep - maybe it will be clearer tomorrow
2015-03-15T05:41:55Z beach: Yeah, good plan.
2015-03-15T05:44:07Z drmeister: The COMPILE-FILE-TO-MODULE function has a bunch of nested macros and each macro has a LET with a bunch of bindings of special variables.  It is very slow to debug because it takes a long time to compile and then it crashes.  It's about halfway through my 80 odd Common Lisp source files.  It's been frustrating.
2015-03-15T05:45:32Z beach: I understand.
2015-03-15T05:45:34Z drmeister: I'm complaining - it's been frustrating - because I haven't been able to get much insight into the problem.  Ugh.  Ok I'm going to sleep now.
2015-03-15T05:46:03Z beach: One might ask why there are so many special variables.  But it shouldn't make the compiler crash, of course.
2015-03-15T05:47:44Z drmeister: Everything else seems to be working fine.  I don't even need this function - it's part of the bootstrapping compiler that will be bypassed.    I should just put a feature test around it and be done with it - in fact that's what I'm going to do.
2015-03-15T05:48:00Z drmeister: Just to see if it compiles everything else.
2015-03-15T05:48:03Z beach: drmeister: Hiding the bug, huh?
2015-03-15T05:48:10Z beach: ... joking!
2015-03-15T05:48:17Z drmeister: Just for now.  I need a glimmer of hope here.
2015-03-15T05:48:25Z beach: Yes, I see.
2015-03-15T05:49:32Z drmeister: No - I can't do that - it is part of the new compiler.  The bypass happens lower down.
2015-03-15T05:50:01Z drmeister: I'm going to bed for real - good night.
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2015-03-15T06:58:55Z pillton: Hmm. What lexical environment is MACROLET evaluated in?
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2015-03-15T07:05:36Z guicho: the lexenv just around it
2015-03-15T07:05:51Z guicho: sorry, just around the code to be expanded
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2015-03-15T07:13:22Z pillton: I don't understand what that means.
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2015-03-15T07:15:27Z pillton: Take this example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146267
2015-03-15T07:15:51Z guicho: try this (macrolet ((bra (&environment env) `(print ,(varibable-information env 'x)))) (let ((x 0)) (declare (type fixnum x)) (bra))
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2015-03-15T07:16:56Z guicho: oh
2015-03-15T07:17:50Z pillton: The FLET has no effect on the lexical environment of the MY-SQUARE macro function.
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2015-03-15T07:18:08Z guicho: file:///usr/share/doc/hyperspec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2015-03-15T07:18:29Z guicho: "but the consequences are undefined if the local macro definitions reference any local variable or function bindings that are visible in that lexical environment. "
2015-03-15T07:18:36Z guicho: CLHS macrolet
2015-03-15T07:18:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2015-03-15T07:19:04Z pillton: Ah.. right.
2015-03-15T07:19:18Z pillton: Weird.
2015-03-15T07:19:26Z guicho: so use a normal function
2015-03-15T07:20:04Z guicho: defined with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (defun square (...)))
2015-03-15T07:20:46Z pillton: Yeah.. I didn't read past "The macro-expansion functions defined by macrolet are defined in the lexical environment in which the macrolet form appears."
2015-03-15T07:21:15Z pillton: That paragraph should be rewritten.
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2015-03-15T07:43:00Z ben_vulpes: if a system loads in another system a la http://quickdocs.org/postmodern/api#package-SIMPLE-DATE, how do i access the system so loaded? i'm using postmodern in my project, and entirely failing to figure out how to access simple-date functions.
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2015-03-15T07:44:12Z beach: ben_vulpes: The system probably creates one or more packages and the names of functions, classes, etc, are probably in those packages.
2015-03-15T07:45:13Z beach: ben_vulpes: So you can either use explicit package prefixes such as (the-package:the-function ....)  or you can do (defpackage my-package (:use #:common-lisp #:the-package)) in your own project.
2015-03-15T07:45:24Z beach: ben_vulpes: I recommend you use explicit package prefixes.
2015-03-15T07:46:59Z beach: In this case for instance (MAKE-INSTANCE 'SIMPLE-DATE:DATE)
2015-03-15T07:48:21Z ben_vulpes: myeah, i'm still failing to understand how to refer to the simple-date package in this context.
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2015-03-15T07:48:47Z beach: I told you: simple-date:some-symbol.
2015-03-15T07:49:39Z beach: Did you try my example of making an instance of the class named DATE?
2015-03-15T07:49:52Z ben_vulpes: oh, yes.
2015-03-15T07:50:19Z ben_vulpes: sbcl invariably complains that package SIMPLE-DATE does not exist.
2015-03-15T07:50:28Z beach: Then you haven't loaded the system.
2015-03-15T07:50:38Z beach: What's the name of the system?
2015-03-15T07:50:58Z beach: Try (require :name-of-system).
2015-03-15T07:51:07Z ben_vulpes: aha!
2015-03-15T07:51:15Z beach: Or (asdf:load-op :name-of-system)
2015-03-15T07:52:23Z ben_vulpes: thank you, beach. i'm still learning the nuances of loading systems.
2015-03-15T07:52:40Z beach: Sure.
2015-03-15T07:58:43Z beach: So is it working now?
2015-03-15T07:58:57Z ben_vulpes: yes indeed, thank you.
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2015-03-15T08:30:38Z beach: So when #n# is used inside an expression labeled with #n= the reader creates a circular structure.  It must then temporarily use a different object in place of #n=.  It ought to be possible to construct a string so that the temporary object represents a violation of the type that the created object must have.
2015-03-15T08:31:23Z beach: I can see how to do it with a reader macro and a class with a type restriction in a slot.
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2015-03-15T08:31:36Z beach: But can it be done without a reader macro?
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2015-03-15T08:32:13Z Shinmera: Why does it have to use a different object in place of #n= ?
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2015-03-15T08:32:51Z beach: er, in place of #n#
2015-03-15T08:33:29Z beach: Is it clear what I mean now?
2015-03-15T08:33:42Z Shinmera: I'm trying to think if it's possible to do it without a placeholder.
2015-03-15T08:34:23Z beach: Consider #1=(0 . #1#).
2015-03-15T08:34:37Z Shinmera: I know.
2015-03-15T08:34:43Z beach: When the CONS is created, you must stick something in the CDR.
2015-03-15T08:35:25Z Shinmera: If the reader had intimate knowledge of the object to come (such as for a cons) it could initialise all slots to NIL or something and only then proceed to read the 'contents'.
2015-03-15T08:35:34Z Shinmera: But that doesn't work in the general case.
2015-03-15T08:35:50Z beach: And it might be a type violation to initialize with NIL.
2015-03-15T08:36:01Z Shinmera: Yeah, hence intimate knowledge.
2015-03-15T08:36:25Z beach: Oh, you are saying initialize it with an object of the right type?
2015-03-15T08:36:30Z beach: Sure, that would work.
2015-03-15T08:36:48Z Shinmera: But only if you know how to initialize it, which you cannot for, say, classes.
2015-03-15T08:36:54Z beach: Exactly.
2015-03-15T08:37:09Z Shinmera: So in the general case you'll have to do a substitution, yes. :/
2015-03-15T08:37:31Z beach: Consider #1=[#1#] where [ is a reader macro that creates an instance of a class with a single slot.
2015-03-15T08:37:59Z guicho: CLHS allocate-instance
2015-03-15T08:37:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_alloca.htm
2015-03-15T08:38:24Z guicho: not necessary to "store NIL".
2015-03-15T08:39:04Z beach: Indeed, but now you must find the place to patch.
2015-03-15T08:39:07Z guicho: it is just unbound. internally, it would be a pointer to NULL in C, which may be implementation dependent.
2015-03-15T08:39:15Z Shinmera: Right, but for some data structures you cannot not initialise them.
2015-03-15T08:39:23Z Grue`: it doesn't seem much different than initializing a class with a slot restricted to type that is not easily satisfiable
2015-03-15T08:39:36Z beach: Grue`: I agree.
2015-03-15T08:40:54Z beach: guicho: How do you find the place where to patch the object if you don't stick anything in there initially?
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2015-03-15T08:42:10Z guicho: now I see in the repl: CL-USER> (defstruct foo (x "a" :type string)) FOO CL-USER> (allocate-instance (find-class 'foo)) #S(FOO :X 0) this is a surprize for me.
2015-03-15T08:43:05Z beach: guicho: I am not sure that using allocate-instance is defined on structure clases.
2015-03-15T08:43:08Z beach: classes
2015-03-15T08:43:52Z beach: guicho: If you have #1=[#2=[#1# #2#]] and you don't put any temporary object in the slots of the inner object, how do you know what to patch them with?
2015-03-15T08:44:13Z guicho: allocate instance is defined on structure class << it is.
2015-03-15T08:44:23Z beach: Oh, OK.
2015-03-15T08:44:26Z guicho: clhs allocate-instance
2015-03-15T08:44:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_alloca.htm
2015-03-15T08:44:53Z beach: Indeed.  Sorry about that.
2015-03-15T08:45:22Z guicho: now lets see what happens when (read-from-string "#1=(cons 0 #n#)")?
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2015-03-15T08:46:04Z beach: Do you mean #1#?
2015-03-15T08:46:29Z guicho: yes sorry
2015-03-15T08:46:33Z guicho: stack exhaust.
2015-03-15T08:46:36Z beach: The CONS is probably not needed.
2015-03-15T08:46:48Z guicho: yes. (read-from-string "'#1=(0 . #1#)")
2015-03-15T08:47:04Z guicho: does not return anyways.
2015-03-15T08:47:14Z Shinmera: your *print-circle* is NIL
2015-03-15T08:47:16Z guicho: so we can guess what
2015-03-15T08:47:29Z beach: Works for me.
2015-03-15T08:48:05Z beach: Right, I set *print-circle* to T in my .sbclrc.
2015-03-15T08:48:30Z guicho: does not work for me anyways.
2015-03-15T08:48:45Z guicho: (let ((*print-circle* t)) (read-from-string "'#1=(0 . #1#)"))
2015-03-15T08:48:47Z beach: Very strange.
2015-03-15T08:48:54Z beach: That won't work.
2015-03-15T08:48:57Z Shinmera: not strange at all cause he's doing it wrong
2015-03-15T08:49:01Z Shinmera: the print happens outside of your let.
2015-03-15T08:49:03Z beach: It will be NIL again by the time it is printed.
2015-03-15T08:49:13Z guicho: ah, right.
2015-03-15T08:49:42Z guicho: it worked, thanks.
2015-03-15T08:49:54Z guicho: but this is not the point :)
2015-03-15T08:50:02Z beach: Correct. :)
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2015-03-15T08:51:13Z guicho: #1=[#2=[#1# #2#]] and you don't put any temporary object in the slots << just a pointer. NULL pointer or some pointer.
2015-03-15T08:51:36Z beach: Me?  I just care about the final result.
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2015-03-15T08:52:02Z beach: The point is you need to distinguish the two slots.
2015-03-15T08:52:24Z beach: So, as far as I can see, you must put a different temporary object in each one.
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2015-03-15T08:54:22Z beach: I suppose a typical reader does the following: create a hash table mapping n in #n= to the value of (list nil), i.e., a unique object.  When #n# is found, put the unique object in there.  At the end, traverse the complete object, replacing instances of unique objects by was built.
2015-03-15T08:54:39Z beach: by what was built.
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2015-03-15T08:55:53Z Shinmera: How does it know how to traverse it?
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2015-03-15T08:58:47Z guicho: say #1=(#2=(#1# . #2#))
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2015-03-15T08:59:06Z guicho: reader reads until the first (
2015-03-15T09:00:31Z guicho: storing that "I am reading the contents of "(" until enclosing ")" is found
2015-03-15T09:00:47Z guicho: into the stack
2015-03-15T09:00:51Z guicho: on the stack
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2015-03-15T09:01:25Z guicho: so at this point the reader is not instantiating the topmost list
2015-03-15T09:02:54Z guicho: only partially. the cons is filled with NULL and NULL, but the memory is allocated and there is a valid pointer
2015-03-15T09:03:25Z guicho: memoized as #1=
2015-03-15T09:04:08Z guicho: the reader calls `read' on the same stream recursively.
2015-03-15T09:04:39Z beach: Shinmera: It must use the MOP.
2015-03-15T09:05:21Z Shinmera: beach: the problem would be trivial if you had pointers. e.g. #n# points to a designated area and when things are unwound and #n= is encountered the object is put at that location.
2015-03-15T09:05:38Z beach: Shinmera: Indeed.
2015-03-15T09:06:05Z beach: Anyway, I need to go.  Lunch guests arrive in 25 minutes.
2015-03-15T09:06:11Z Shinmera: Have a good Sunday
2015-03-15T09:06:13Z guicho: it finds #2= and so on. When it eventually finds #1#, set the pointer stored in somewhere.
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2015-03-15T09:14:23Z guicho: my sunday is almost over;;
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2015-03-15T12:56:08Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: does your documentation generator handle tables?
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2015-03-15T12:59:01Z Shinmera: In what way?
2015-03-15T13:00:54Z hitecnologys: I mean, is there a way to put table there? GH's markdown has support for them, but I'm not sure whether your script that does.
2015-03-15T13:01:31Z Shinmera: By default Staple uses 3bmd to parse markdown, so look there.
2015-03-15T13:01:38Z hitecnologys: OK, thanks.
2015-03-15T13:03:03Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: it says there is support, but you'll have to load 3bmd-ext-tables.asd.
2015-03-15T13:03:18Z Shinmera: Then there is no support by default.
2015-03-15T13:03:29Z hitecnologys: So, I better evade tables then?
2015-03-15T13:03:45Z Shinmera: Do you have a good reason to want a table? I find that in the majority of cases a table is not a good solution.
2015-03-15T13:04:37Z hitecnologys: I need to put a list of selector vs. example of usage there. I think I could use a list but that'd be confusing, in my opinion.
2015-03-15T13:05:27Z Shinmera: If you make the selector distinguished from the rest and on its own line I'd think a list should suffice.
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2015-03-15T13:07:43Z hitecnologys: Not sure what you mean. Could you provide an example?
2015-03-15T13:08:05Z hitecnologys: Or an algorithm of getting that done.
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2015-03-15T13:08:21Z Shinmera: * *foo*   \n  my explanation here
2015-03-15T13:08:38Z hitecnologys: Oh, that'd work? Neat, thanks.
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2015-03-15T13:08:50Z Shinmera: Two spaces at the end of a line produce a newline in markdown.
2015-03-15T13:09:08Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-03-15T13:09:13Z Shinmera: (which is really stupid imo, but let's not digress into ranting about markup)
2015-03-15T13:09:23Z hitecnologys: Right.
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2015-03-15T13:40:38Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: is there a special syntax to write selector that selects elements based on presence of attributes? (e.g. "[attr]" or "element[attr]")
2015-03-15T13:42:09Z Shinmera: No special syntax, so just writing it exactly as you just did (as in, a string) will work.
2015-03-15T13:42:32Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-03-15T13:42:32Z Shinmera: Actually I think you can just use [] literally
2015-03-15T13:42:43Z Shinmera: since they don't have any significance to the reader and will be taken for symbols.
2015-03-15T13:42:43Z hitecnologys: Yeah, that's what I thought of.
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2015-03-15T13:59:10Z beach: drmeister: I made the Graphviz drawing iterative.  Did you try it?
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2015-03-15T14:32:35Z drmeister: beach: I just woke up - I'll try it now.
2015-03-15T14:32:46Z Xach: for shame
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2015-03-15T14:41:38Z drmeister: Wow, I just slept 9 hours - several late night debugging sessions caught up with me
2015-03-15T14:41:44Z drmeister: To work.
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2015-03-15T14:42:10Z beach: drmeister: Not putting pressure on you or anything.  Congratulations to getting some sleep.
2015-03-15T14:42:46Z drmeister: No, no - it's fine - I really want to see this work and figure out what the heck is going on.
2015-03-15T14:42:59Z beach: drmeister: Oh, tell me one thing...
2015-03-15T14:43:19Z beach: ... when you said that the compiler "crashed", what kind of crash are we talking about here?
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2015-03-15T14:45:52Z drmeister: My wife just showed me that she has secretly memorized Pi to 21 digits.  She's a keeper.
2015-03-15T14:46:02Z drmeister: It's a weird morning.
2015-03-15T14:46:14Z beach: Apparently.
2015-03-15T14:46:39Z drmeister: Uh - hang on.
2015-03-15T14:47:16Z drmeister: I'm just recreating it - it will be a few minutes.
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2015-03-15T14:51:41Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I've figured out pretty much anything but element[attr |= "value"].
2015-03-15T14:52:23Z beach: drmeister: I am going to be busy for a while; I need to call my niece.
2015-03-15T14:52:25Z Shinmera: I don't even remember what that operator does
2015-03-15T14:52:35Z drmeister: No problem.
2015-03-15T14:53:00Z Shinmera: I guess it'll have to be el[attr\|=val] for now :/
2015-03-15T14:53:13Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: it checks whether attr has a list of values separated by hyphen.
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2015-03-15T14:53:32Z Shinmera: right, that thing.
2015-03-15T14:55:06Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: can I put what I've come up with on your plaster so that you could check it out before I commit it and make a pull request (or you could put that there youself, actually)?
2015-03-15T14:55:09Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I suppose I could add equivalent keyword ops for all those as I did for = as in (:= "foo" "bar")
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2015-03-15T14:55:34Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: all keyword ops work besides |= one.
2015-03-15T14:55:52Z Shinmera is ashamed at how little he remembers about LASS
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2015-03-15T14:57:19Z Shinmera: Ah, here we are: https://github.com/Shinmera/LASS/blob/master/special.lisp#L102
2015-03-15T14:57:59Z hitecnologys: Oh, neat.
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2015-03-15T14:58:53Z hitecnologys: I can't remember what /= does. It doesn't seem to be converted to |=.
2015-03-15T15:00:11Z Shinmera: There is no /=. I was intending to have that translate to |= but fudged it. That's a bug.
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2015-03-15T15:00:36Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: err, your CAPTCHA is way too complicated for me. How am I supposed to finish "eq-at-on"?
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2015-03-15T15:01:02Z Shinmera: equation
2015-03-15T15:02:07Z Shinmera:  /= comparator fix is in.
2015-03-15T15:02:08Z hitecnologys: Ah. Silly me.
2015-03-15T15:02:35Z hitecnologys: There you go: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/9F
2015-03-15T15:04:09Z Shinmera: Well, it's inaccurate in the sense that you're illustrating using a block rather than just a selector.
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2015-03-15T15:04:48Z hitecnologys: Right, I should probably just put selectors.
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2015-03-15T15:04:53Z hitecnologys: Haven't thought of that...
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2015-03-15T15:05:29Z Shinmera: Your description of the |= comparator is wrong as well. You're testing for "bar", not "en".
2015-03-15T15:05:46Z Shinmera: Otherwise it looks fine.
2015-03-15T15:05:59Z hitecnologys: Ah, right.
2015-03-15T15:06:20Z hitecnologys: I copied that from Wikipedia as I'm not that good at making accurate descriptions.
2015-03-15T15:07:05Z Shinmera: How will you learn to make accurate descriptions if you just copy paste?
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2015-03-15T15:07:27Z hitecnologys: I read the correct ones?
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2015-03-15T15:07:44Z hitecnologys: And rember then to use similar constructions later.
2015-03-15T15:08:12Z Shinmera: Right, but that also means you have to try to write accurate descriptions at some point.
2015-03-15T15:08:19Z Shinmera: Anyway.
2015-03-15T15:08:39Z hitecnologys: Correct. Next time I will be doing similar job I won't copy-paste.
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2015-03-15T15:09:37Z Shinmera: Glad to hear! I'll merge your request as soon as it arrives then and probably give the LASS source a once-over to see if there's anything else I missed.
2015-03-15T15:09:44Z hitecnologys: I'm not sure how to illustrate nested elements using only selector.
2015-03-15T15:10:04Z Shinmera: Well, that one can't be done with just a selector of course.
2015-03-15T15:10:10Z hitecnologys: Should I put ... where the rules are supposed to be?
2015-03-15T15:10:24Z hitecnologys: Or leave it as is?
2015-03-15T15:11:05Z Shinmera: Since your addition is only about selectors I would leave that out
2015-03-15T15:11:15Z hitecnologys: Roger.
2015-03-15T15:11:20Z Shinmera: The body logic belongs to a different section.
2015-03-15T15:11:42Z drmeister: beach: I was conflating what the graphviz flow chart drawing code was doing (literally segfaulting) with what the compiler does (throw up 168 "Instruction does not dominate all uses".
2015-03-15T15:14:19Z drmeister: Your new flow chart drawing code worked without crashing - now I am attempting to render a 2.8MB graphviz dot file as EPS to take a look at it in Illustrator.
2015-03-15T15:15:03Z drmeister: Wish me luck.   If I don't return in one hour send someone in with some granola bars and a glass of milk.
2015-03-15T15:16:01Z drmeister: The thing is - the cleavir/clasp compiler compiles hundreds of s-expressions before this one just fine.
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2015-03-15T15:35:21Z beach: drmeister: Good luck.  I just got off the phone with my niece.
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2015-03-15T15:45:53Z drmeister: I'm trying 'neato' to render it.
2015-03-15T15:46:45Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: done.
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2015-03-15T15:49:43Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: neat, thanks.
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2015-03-15T15:49:58Z drmeister: beach: Thanks - now that I have it whittled down to the one function that is causing the problem - I'll start whittling down that function to something smaller that causes the problem and that I can render.
2015-03-15T15:51:54Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: well, it's kind of messed up while displayed by GH, though.
2015-03-15T15:52:29Z Shinmera: I'll fix it.
2015-03-15T15:52:36Z hitecnologys: OK
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2015-03-15T15:52:44Z hitecnologys: But what in the world causes it?
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2015-03-15T16:08:20Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: things fixed, descriptions updated, some examples added, docs regenerated and pushed.
2015-03-15T16:08:49Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: nice.
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2015-03-15T16:09:33Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: ah, I see. I should have used single backquote.
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2015-03-15T16:09:56Z Shinmera: Another annoying inconsistency in Markdown :/
2015-03-15T16:10:37Z hitecnologys: Yeah.
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2015-03-15T16:26:14Z oleo: ok how do you read unconditionally until end of file ?
2015-03-15T16:27:25Z oleo: without invoking error ?
2015-03-15T16:28:21Z Bicyclidine: (loop while (read nil nil))
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2015-03-15T16:30:30Z oleo: ok thank you
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2015-03-15T16:35:37Z nyef: Hello all.
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2015-03-15T16:58:07Z burtons: morning nyef
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2015-03-15T18:15:27Z drmeister: Hi nyef
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2015-03-15T18:32:57Z oleo_: hello pjb http://paste.lisp.org/display/146234#6, dunno what i miss here
2015-03-15T18:33:11Z oleo_: it works sorta but i don't get why the delays....
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2015-03-15T18:37:03Z nyef: oleo: Without any understanding of what you're doing or what you mean by "stuttering" or "delays", my first thought is "have you tried using FINISH-OUTPUT"?
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2015-03-15T18:37:16Z oleo: nope, i think that's what i miss
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2015-03-15T19:40:08Z ben_vulpes: what's the Right Thing to do when one wants to tweak a system's behavior? i'd like to specify the value computed here (https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/blob/master/postmodern/deftable.lisp#L98) in args to the function - is this the sort of situation in which one writes a macro?
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2015-03-15T19:58:10Z dim: ben_vulpes: patch the function definition, send the patch to upstream
2015-03-15T19:58:26Z dim: while waiting for the patch to be accepted, you can "monkey patch" in your own system
2015-03-15T19:58:43Z dim: I have some patch brewing as "monkey patches" in pgloader
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2015-03-15T19:59:13Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/tree/master/src/monkey for an example, mayne not the best one, but it works for me
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2015-03-15T20:05:03Z ben_vulpes: dim: roger, ty.
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2015-03-15T20:43:21Z oleo: woh
2015-03-15T20:43:53Z oleo: got my pipe .... lol
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2015-03-15T20:52:49Z drmeister: Hmmm, I have a problem.   Cleavir/clasp compilation of my COMPILE-FILE-TO-MODULE blows up.
2015-03-15T20:53:52Z drmeister: Here's a graph of the HIR - it's not expandable - it's amazing that cleavir and graphviz were able to render it at all.
2015-03-15T20:53:53Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/zn53ESU.png
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2015-03-15T20:56:58Z drmeister: I think every one of those little knots projecting out from the central mass is a CALL-WITH-VARIABLE-BOUND
2015-03-15T20:58:20Z drmeister: And somewhere in that mass are 168 "Instruction does not dominate all uses" errors where variables defined in one function are used in another function.
2015-03-15T20:58:40Z drmeister: How the F do I figure this out?  Gah.
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2015-03-15T20:59:29Z ehu: drmeister: what I did with ABCL is that I added the errors as annotations to the graph in terms of color or some other easy to find criterion.
2015-03-15T20:59:30Z ehu: also,
2015-03-15T20:59:41Z ehu: I used to number the nodes that represented the instructions.
2015-03-15T20:59:57Z ehu: then, in the error, I'd emit the offending instruction number(s)
2015-03-15T21:00:14Z ehu: so, there would at least be something to be looked up in the graph.
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2015-03-15T21:02:32Z drmeister: ehu: Thanks - I can look for the offending symbols in the graph (I'm rendering it in Illustrator and it has a Search function) and I wanted to see the where in the graph they were occurring.    This graph is impenetrable because I had to cut so many corners just to get any kind of layout.   It still took 1.5 hours to lay out.
2015-03-15T21:02:57Z drmeister: I think I need to take a different approach.
2015-03-15T21:02:59Z ehu: I can imagine.
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2015-03-15T21:03:12Z ehu: maybe start out with a higher level graph?
2015-03-15T21:03:24Z drmeister: I've tried whittling it down but as soon as I start cutting stuff out of the function the errors go away.
2015-03-15T21:03:33Z ehu: or cut the module into pieces until the error stops occurring?
2015-03-15T21:03:48Z ehu: hmm.
2015-03-15T21:04:00Z drmeister: It stops occurring almost immediately when I comment out the inner parts of the function.
2015-03-15T21:04:34Z ehu: ok. so, what happens if you start putting the inner parts of the function in their own not-inlinable functions?
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2015-03-15T21:05:26Z drmeister: Maybe I can put in some checks to throw an error when the offending symbols are added to the HIR.
2015-03-15T21:05:54Z ehu: what I did was create a graph in-memory
2015-03-15T21:05:57Z drmeister: ehu: I haven't tried that yet.  There are a lot of macros wrapped around the inner parts of the function.
2015-03-15T21:06:21Z ehu: and then make sure to interrupt compilation as soon as the graph was complet
2015-03-15T21:06:25Z ehu: complete
2015-03-15T21:06:26Z ehu: then,
2015-03-15T21:07:06Z ehu: I'd use the repl or some IDE like environment to research the graph
2015-03-15T21:07:15Z ehu: ask myself questions about it
2015-03-15T21:07:27Z ehu: then figure out what functions could generate the answers.
2015-03-15T21:07:28Z drmeister: I'm thinking along those lines now.
2015-03-15T21:07:30Z Oladon: What are people using for Lisp webdev these days? I've got some code that I'd like to write a web front-end for, but it requires stream-like input from the user... Weblocks' promises of continuations sounded good, but the documentation is seriously lacking.
2015-03-15T21:07:57Z Oladon: I've looked at Clack and UCW, too, but both seem somewhat unsupported/outdated
2015-03-15T21:08:00Z drmeister: ehu: That's a good idea - I'll think on that.
2015-03-15T21:08:00Z ehu: drmeister: I've thought about creating/finding a realtime graph drawing app
2015-03-15T21:08:12Z ehu: drmeister: just to help me research this stuff.
2015-03-15T21:08:23Z Shinmera: Oladon: why do you think Clack is unsupported or outdated?
2015-03-15T21:08:39Z ehu: especially, it would help if you could get lists of offending instructions and then be able to inspect those instructions and the surrounding graph.
2015-03-15T21:08:53Z ehu: the only problem I ever had with that is time.
2015-03-15T21:08:58Z ehu: that is,
2015-03-15T21:09:04Z Oladon: Shinmera: well, it looks like the last github checkin was fairly recent, but the tutorial on the page isn't even complete... nor does it cover anything similar to what I need
2015-03-15T21:09:11Z ehu: I didn't have a real-time graph drawing algorithm.
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2015-03-15T21:09:34Z Oladon: Err, I guess the last github checkin was three days ago, which isn't bad at all. :)
2015-03-15T21:09:37Z ehu: and most libraries which seem to have that ability seem to be on some kind of paid scheme
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2015-03-15T21:10:04Z Shinmera: Oladon: clack is very much supported. But it's more of a framework framework than a framework, so you'll probably want something more high-level.
2015-03-15T21:10:22Z Oladon: Shinmera: hrm... such as Ningle or Caveman?
2015-03-15T21:10:31Z Shinmera: Oladon: As for streams, you'll have to look at hunchensocket or similar
2015-03-15T21:10:44Z Shinmera: Oladon: I think. I never used either myself, so I can't say.
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2015-03-15T21:11:33Z Oladon: I'm not even quite sure how to do what I need. I've effectively got some code on the back-end that runs and periodically needs input from users. I'd thought that using Weblocks' continuations I could just write a new offer-choice method for web users and pretend the whole thing was synchronous, but it's not quite working out that way
2015-03-15T21:12:03Z Oladon: I'd like to rewrite as little of the backend code as possible, of course
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2015-03-15T21:19:19Z Oladon: Shinmera: Hunchensocket seems promising, thanks
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2015-03-15T21:47:57Z oleo: :)
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2015-03-15T23:00:29Z ehu: Xach: When we move common-lisp.net Git repositories to GitLab, I'll introduce rewriting of https:// URLs from the old repository locations to the new ones. Will you be using that? Or do you simply use any published archives (which don't move)? If you want me to do anything not to disrupt your workflow, please let me know.
2015-03-15T23:00:39Z ehu: I'll see  what I can do.
2015-03-15T23:04:07Z Xach: ehu: I use a mix of stuff.
2015-03-15T23:04:16Z Xach: not sure what will be affected in what way
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2015-03-15T23:04:58Z ehu: understood. for now, I'll just be migrating the existing git repositories into gitlab.
2015-03-15T23:05:21Z ehu: gitlab will be reachable at https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ , so, an entirely new domain and location for the repositories.
2015-03-15T23:05:46Z ehu: if you want to see my latest migration result: https://gitlab-test.common-lisp.net/explore/projects
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2015-03-15T23:07:37Z ehu: do you think you can use that to see some of the impact? The resulting common-lisp.net site is at https://test.common-lisp.net/ -- one remark: there will be rewrite rules to ensure redirected clone/pull requests. These rewrites are not in place yet.
2015-03-15T23:07:50Z ehu: I expect to develop them over the coming week.
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2015-03-15T23:09:50Z ehu: the migration of the CVS repositories, hg repositories and darcs repositories will come later.
2015-03-15T23:09:56Z ehu: (this year, but not this quarter)
2015-03-15T23:10:54Z ehu: can I help you identify impact? Or will you simply repair any damage after the fact?
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2015-03-15T23:29:32Z pillton: Does anyone know why minimal compilation was introduced?
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2015-03-15T23:38:16Z nyef: pillton: I would imagine that it has something to do with ensuring that compilation has semantics that can be relied upon.
2015-03-15T23:40:25Z pillton: It seems to adversely impact the notion of lexical environments though.
2015-03-15T23:40:42Z nyef: ... Looks like it's not in CLtL1, which suggests that it's an ANSI thing, and thus might be reference by one of the "issue" writeups from CLHS or, failing that, some mailing list archive somewhere.
2015-03-15T23:40:52Z pillton: Take macrolet.
2015-03-15T23:41:09Z pillton: Cool. Thanks. I will have a look.
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2015-03-15T23:42:52Z nyef: Alternately, it might be in CLtL1, and I just didn't see it in a hurried perusal of the index, table of contents, and the two or three pages of blurb that it has about the compiler.
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