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2015-03-06T02:25:50Z drmeister: beach - when you come on: I can compile-file small programs with Cleavir/Clasp.  Argument processing is done.   Now I am throwing code at it and implementing missing HIR instructions as they come up.
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2015-03-06T02:43:31Z drmeister: I also trapped the SIGABRT signal so now I can trap failed assertions in the LLVM C++ library and enter my lisp debugger to figure out what led to the problem.   That was a major headache because it used to segfault and require many minutes to recreate the problem in lldb.
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2015-03-06T02:46:03Z drmeister: Everything is pretty much hosed at that point because I have no idea what the state of the LLVM memory is but for rapid debugging it is great.
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2015-03-06T03:35:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-03-06T03:36:27Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2015-03-06T03:36:37Z brucem: morning beach and drmeister
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2015-03-06T03:39:40Z drmeister: I can compile-file small programs with Cleavir/Clasp.  Argument processing is done.   Now I am throwing code at it and implementing missing HIR instructions as they come up.
2015-03-06T03:40:09Z beach: drmeister: Sounds great.
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2015-03-06T04:12:13Z beach: drmeister: Are you able to load the compiled files?
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2015-03-06T04:12:58Z drmeister: Yes
2015-03-06T04:13:07Z drmeister: And they run
2015-03-06T04:13:12Z beach: Wow! :)
2015-03-06T04:14:26Z drmeister: I'm implementing missing instructions.
2015-03-06T04:14:51Z beach: drmeister: Good.  I just added a new instruction: CONSP-INSTRUCTION.
2015-03-06T04:14:56Z beach: It has two successors.
2015-03-06T04:15:04Z beach: One input.
2015-03-06T04:15:18Z beach: Choose the first successor if its input is a CONS.
2015-03-06T04:15:26Z beach: Otherwise, the second successor.
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2015-03-06T04:15:43Z beach: Soon I will add FIXNUMP-INSTRUCTION as well.
2015-03-06T04:17:27Z drmeister: How do you know to add these instructions rather than leaving them as function applications?
2015-03-06T04:17:51Z beach: It would be way too slow to call a function to find out that information.
2015-03-06T04:18:02Z beach: In most Common Lisp systems, those are determined by the tags.
2015-03-06T04:18:11Z beach: So it is a matter of a masking operation and a test.
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2015-03-06T04:21:38Z beach: For Common Lisp systems that don't have tags for FIXNUMs and CONSes, they can implement those instructions as function calls, but that's no worse than before.
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2015-03-06T04:23:12Z beach: drmeister: Does that make sense?
2015-03-06T04:23:34Z drmeister: Yes
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2015-03-06T04:42:29Z drmeister: beach: What do you recommend that I do with DEFUN's during compile-file.   If I use a function in same file that it was defined in I get errors because the global environment doesn't know about it.
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2015-03-06T04:51:55Z beach: drmeister: Good question.
2015-03-06T04:53:57Z beach: drmeister: I haven't figured out the details of that kind of stuff yet.  But I imagine that WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT would capture those errors and store them until the end of the compilation unit.  Then it would re-signal them only if the functions are still undefined, and then only as warnings.  Something like that.  Maybe someone else can help me out here.
2015-03-06T04:54:28Z drmeister: Ah - I see.
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2015-03-06T04:54:48Z beach: Currently, it also signals an error when a function calls itself.
2015-03-06T04:55:07Z beach: I guess that's a kind of compilation unit too.
2015-03-06T04:57:37Z beach: drmeister: I guess step 1 is to convert the error to a warning.
2015-03-06T04:58:53Z beach: That would get you through the compilation without errors.
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2015-03-06T05:08:36Z drmeister: So you'd create some kind of missing-function condition?
2015-03-06T05:08:53Z drmeister: I don't have a lot of experience creating conditions
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2015-03-06T05:10:23Z drmeister: I guess you have one already - whatever is being signalled
2015-03-06T05:11:08Z drmeister: I'm trying to get back to that - I'm fixing a mistake I made.
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2015-03-06T05:25:56Z beach: drmeister: Yes, there is already a condition for undefined functions.
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2015-03-06T05:30:50Z drmeister: beach: What should I return for TRANSLATE-DATUM for cleavir-ir:values-location?
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2015-03-06T05:31:58Z beach: drmeister: First of all, you should convert calls followed by returns to tailcalls.  That will eliminate most of the multiple values
2015-03-06T05:32:29Z beach: drmeister: Then, you must remember how you store multiple values around unwinds and you must translate the values-location to that.
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2015-03-06T05:34:19Z drmeister: Can I hold off on tail-calls for now?   There are a bunch of issues that surround them.   The calling convention that I use in LLVM "C-calling convention" doesn't support them apparently.
2015-03-06T05:34:36Z beach: Then you must do action number 2.
2015-03-06T05:35:08Z beach: ... remember where you store multiple values around unwinds and call/return pairs and translate the values-location accordingly.
2015-03-06T05:35:29Z drmeister: Hmm, I'm not sure what that means.
2015-03-06T05:35:38Z drmeister: Around unwinds - hang on
2015-03-06T05:36:01Z beach: drmeister: If you have (defun f (x) (g x))...
2015-03-06T05:36:25Z beach: Then, if G returns multiple values, where do you store those multiple values so that F can return them to its caller?
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2015-03-06T05:39:57Z drmeister: I store them in a single array
2015-03-06T05:40:06Z beach: There you go.
2015-03-06T05:40:19Z drmeister: The same array that f would return them in.
2015-03-06T05:40:37Z drmeister: Do I need to store them temporarily somewhere else?
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2015-03-06T05:41:14Z beach: I wouldn't think so.  What makes you say that?
2015-03-06T05:42:42Z drmeister: Exhaustion I guess.
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2015-03-06T05:43:20Z drmeister: Now I have to implement MULTIPLE-VALUES-CALL-INSTRUCTION
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2015-03-06T05:43:50Z drmeister: multiple-value-call-instruction - sorry
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2015-03-06T05:45:23Z drmeister: Hmm, how does this one work?
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2015-03-06T05:47:03Z drmeister: I guess I'm going to have to figure out what action number 2 means.
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2015-03-06T05:47:43Z beach: It means "do exactly what you are doing right now".
2015-03-06T05:48:16Z beach: ... store the values returned by G in your array.  Then return those values from F.
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2015-03-06T06:02:09Z drmeister: But the MVC instruction takes one input - what do I do with it?
2015-03-06T06:02:27Z drmeister: I've seen these docs:
2015-03-06T06:02:30Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/tSk4Vku6
2015-03-06T06:03:19Z drmeister: In translate-simple-instruction for MVC there is one input and no outputs.
2015-03-06T06:03:54Z beach: The first input is the function to call.
2015-03-06T06:04:18Z beach: The output is the values-location holding the result of the call to that function.
2015-03-06T06:04:18Z drmeister: And I call it with the arguments in the values-location?
2015-03-06T06:04:40Z beach: You call the function with all the values in all the inputs except the first one.
2015-03-06T06:04:47Z beach: clhs multiple-value-call
2015-03-06T06:04:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_multip.htm
2015-03-06T06:05:50Z beach: "All the values of each form are gathered together (not just one value from each) and given as arguments to the function."
2015-03-06T06:06:09Z drmeister: Yeah, that's a problem.  I only have one multiple-values array.
2015-03-06T06:06:42Z beach: drmeister: So in Clasp you have not yet implemented multiple-value-call?
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2015-03-06T06:08:57Z drmeister: Oh - I have, but as I evaluate the forms for M-V-C I gather the multiple values they return into an array and then I pass all of those values to the first function designator.
2015-03-06T06:09:06Z drmeister: I wouldn't have anything working without M-V-C.
2015-03-06T06:09:45Z drmeister: It sounds like with Cleavir the forms will be evaluated and I have to keep the multiple-values they return separate somehow.
2015-03-06T06:09:57Z beach: Well, since multiple-value-call-instruction does exactly what the multiple-value-call special form does, I suggest you do the same thing to implement the instruction as you currently do to implement the special form.
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2015-03-06T06:11:12Z drmeister: Yeah - I see.
2015-03-06T06:11:25Z drmeister: Hang on.
2015-03-06T06:11:39Z drmeister: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'tmv '(lambda () (multiple-value-call #'list (values 1 2) (values 3 4) )) :debug t)
2015-03-06T06:11:53Z drmeister: This should return (list 1 2 3 4) - I think.
2015-03-06T06:12:21Z beach: I would think so yes.
2015-03-06T06:12:22Z drmeister: http://imgur.com/Xn3jHAQ
2015-03-06T06:13:01Z beach: Looks right to me.
2015-03-06T06:14:52Z drmeister: I see - the first funcall puts its results in a "V" and the second funcall puts its results in another "V",  Then MVC takes a function designator and both "V" as input and calls the function using the two "V" sets of values as arguments and then returns the values in another "V"
2015-03-06T06:15:17Z drmeister: I have to think about this.   I have one multiple-values array that all functions write into.
2015-03-06T06:15:18Z beach: Yes.  That's what the MVC instruction does.
2015-03-06T06:15:38Z drmeister: I would have to save the values somewhere.
2015-03-06T06:15:43Z beach: Right.
2015-03-06T06:16:41Z drmeister: But I don't want to save them and restore them when V is an input to return - that's related to the tail-call thing you were telling me about before wasn't it?
2015-03-06T06:16:55Z beach: Yes.
2015-03-06T06:18:45Z drmeister: The locations that I pass to translate-datum are passive memory locations, is there a way to have them save and restore data?
2015-03-06T06:18:56Z drmeister: I'm not sure that makes sense.
2015-03-06T06:19:06Z beach: You would have to add new instructions.
2015-03-06T06:19:35Z drmeister: MIR instructions?
2015-03-06T06:20:01Z beach: Yeah.
2015-03-06T06:20:52Z beach: When you execute an instructions that produces multiple values and those values are not going to be immediately returned, you need to add an instruction to save those multiple values somewhere.
2015-03-06T06:21:13Z drmeister: So I would change a funcall->V to funcall...save-mv-array-to-location-indicated-by-V
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2015-03-06T06:21:27Z beach: No
2015-03-06T06:21:32Z beach: Add a new instruction.
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2015-03-06T06:21:45Z drmeister: What would that new instruction do?
2015-03-06T06:21:49Z beach: funcall-> then new instruction V->secret place.
2015-03-06T06:23:02Z drmeister: That's what I meant - but could not communicate with ASC
2015-03-06T06:23:13Z drmeister: Ok, I'll sleep on this before I implement something.
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2015-03-06T06:23:58Z drmeister: Is it only prior to a return (tail call) that I don't need to save/restore the values?
2015-03-06T06:24:45Z drmeister: I knew there was something fishy about the way I was handling multiple values wrt Cleavir.  I had a strong feeing something was wrong - but couldn't put my finger on it.
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2015-03-06T06:25:34Z beach: Depending on where you store the famous array, you might not need to do anything around call-unwind-return either.
2015-03-06T06:26:01Z drmeister: Your graphviz graphs saved the day again - they point out the problem immediately.
2015-03-06T06:26:27Z jasom: yeah, those things are great
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2015-03-06T06:28:42Z drmeister: To be really clear.  I would look for instructions that have V as output and insert an instruction after them like "save MV to V-secret-place"
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2015-03-06T06:29:32Z drmeister: What instructions take V as input?  Just MVC and RET?
2015-03-06T06:29:55Z drmeister: Because MVC is going to want the secret places .
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2015-03-06T06:30:42Z drmeister: And RET - I want RET to suppress the saving of MV to a secret place after the instruction that generates the values.
2015-03-06T06:31:55Z drmeister: Sorry to be so obtuse.
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2015-03-06T06:33:11Z drmeister: Ugh, there's the M->F and F->M instructions too.
2015-03-06T06:33:23Z drmeister: I think I better get to bed - maybe it will be clearer in the morning.
2015-03-06T06:33:54Z drmeister: beach: I'll check the logs if you have any more extremely helpful advice.   Thank you in advance.
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2015-03-06T06:49:47Z beach: drmeister: There is a very simple workaround to this problem:  Define multiple-value-call as a macro that expands to (fmultiple-value-call fun-form (lambda () form1) (lambda () form2) ...).
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2015-03-06T06:51:22Z beach: drmeister: Then define that function like this (defun fmultiple-value-call (fun &rest thunks) (apply #'values (loop for thunk in thunks append (multiple-value-list (funcall thunk)))))
2015-03-06T06:51:36Z beach: drmeister: Finally, compile that function with your existing compiler.
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2015-03-06T06:58:30Z beach: drmeister: The "production" solution to your problem would probably be to store the VALUES-LOCATIONs on the stack.
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2015-03-06T07:38:43Z faheem_: So, who is going to the London Lisp thing? ELS?
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2015-03-06T07:39:52Z faheem_: Yes, ELS.
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2015-03-06T07:52:12Z jackdaniel 
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2015-03-06T08:01:29Z Shinmera: faheem_: The ones I know of are beach, drmeister, splittist, Xach, Xof, and myself
2015-03-06T08:01:41Z Shinmera: I heard some others as well, but I can't remember who.
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2015-03-06T08:14:21Z faheem_: Shinmera: oh, you're going too? That's nice. Are you presenting?
2015-03-06T08:15:04Z brucem: I wish I could go ... but I'm not in the mood for a 12+ hour flight.
2015-03-06T08:15:20Z Shinmera: faheem_: I'm planning on doing one (maybe two) lightning talks.
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2015-03-06T08:19:52Z faheem_: Shinmera: oh. On what, if I might ask? Are these talks online now?
2015-03-06T08:20:10Z faheem_: Also, what is the registration fee for the conference?
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2015-03-06T08:21:53Z jackdaniel: faheem_: 120 euro
2015-03-06T08:23:00Z Shinmera: faheem_: Qtools, and maybe Radiance. And no, I have yet to write them.
2015-03-06T08:23:13Z Shinmera: faheem_: 120€, 60€ for students
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2015-03-06T08:24:14Z faheem_: jackdaniel, Shinmera  Ok, thanks. That's not too bad I guess. Accomodation/flights would be far more expensive.
2015-03-06T08:24:39Z faheem_: Shinmera: I meant the announcements of the talks, sorry.
2015-03-06T08:24:49Z faheem_: are these your own projects?
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2015-03-06T08:30:40Z Shinmera: The programme isn't finalised yet, and I don't think lightning talks will be listed.
2015-03-06T08:30:50Z Shinmera: And yes, they are.
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2015-03-06T08:33:25Z splittist: Shinmera: my thoughts: "Qt is ... ; smoke is ... ; CommonQt is ... ; Qtools is ... . Qtools philosophy and examples. Comparison between Qt example and Qtools example. The crowd goes wild."
2015-03-06T08:33:48Z Shinmera: splittist: I can agree up until the last part.
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2015-03-06T08:34:44Z Ralt: I agree with the last part
2015-03-06T08:34:59Z Ralt: :P
2015-03-06T08:35:00Z Shinmera: It might be nice if I could squeeze in some history / motivation behind it, but I doubt the time will allow for that as well.
2015-03-06T08:35:19Z Ralt: the motivation of having something more lispy definitely needs to be told though
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2015-03-06T08:35:44Z Shinmera: Well yes, but that's not the reason I started working on Qtools.
2015-03-06T08:35:58Z Ralt: oh.
2015-03-06T08:37:09Z Ralt: question: I want to use h:* instead of hunchentoot:* in my code. Is it possible to "add" an option to defpackage? Namely, adding a :nicknames string ("h")
2015-03-06T08:37:12Z Shinmera: The whole widgets thing only came much later, and the first implementation was a horrible mess.
2015-03-06T08:37:29Z Shinmera: clhs rename-package
2015-03-06T08:37:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rn_pkg.htm
2015-03-06T08:37:37Z Ralt: thanks
2015-03-06T08:37:40Z Shinmera: Otherwise look into package-local nicknames of your implementation.
2015-03-06T08:38:09Z Ralt: I'll just go with the standard way
2015-03-06T08:38:48Z Shinmera: Adding nicknames from outside isn't something I'd advise.
2015-03-06T08:39:00Z loke: Shinmera: Can't you hust DEFINE-PACKAGE :H which then uses and re-exports all the symbols?
2015-03-06T08:39:09Z Shinmera: You can do that too.
2015-03-06T08:39:32Z Ralt: loke: example? I don't see what you mean
2015-03-06T08:39:32Z loke: There must be a system that does that for you already
2015-03-06T08:39:52Z Ralt: rename-package renames the package... I don't really want to do that. Just adding a nickname would be the best
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2015-03-06T08:40:27Z Shinmera: Ralt: (defpackage #:h (:use #:hunchentoot)) (do-symbols (symbol (find-package #:h)) (export symbol (find-package #:h)))
2015-03-06T08:40:48Z Ralt: oh
2015-03-06T08:40:50Z loke: I think the system PACKAGE-RENAMING on Quicklisp does what you want
2015-03-06T08:41:23Z Shinmera: If you just want a faster way to type I would /really/ advise to use package-local nicknames though.
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2015-03-06T08:42:10Z loke: You might also want to lock at DEFPACKAGE-PLUS
2015-03-06T08:42:15Z Ralt: http://www.cliki.net/cl-package-aliases seems to do that?
2015-03-06T08:42:39Z Ralt: Shinmera: looking up package-local nicknames... the name seems to be what I want
2015-03-06T08:43:09Z Shinmera: It's sadly implementation dependant, not available on all, and there's no library wrapping over it.
2015-03-06T08:43:25Z Shinmera: But if you're writing an application that shouldn't be a problem.
2015-03-06T08:43:39Z Ralt: ok
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2015-03-06T08:43:57Z Shinmera: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Package_002dLocal-Nicknames
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2015-03-06T08:45:47Z Ralt: looks like it works. Thanks!
2015-03-06T08:46:02Z loke: If you have a simple HTML page and want to extract the text from it in some kind of readable form. Formatting does not need to be any good at all, basically just support for paragraphs and line breaks is enough. Does anyone have a CL tool to do this? I suppose i could write something using CLOSURE-HTML, but if there is something that required less work, that's be neat.
2015-03-06T08:46:29Z Shinmera: loke: lQuery
2015-03-06T08:46:40Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/lquery/
2015-03-06T08:46:56Z Shinmera: I wrote that pretty much exactly for what you want to do.
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2015-03-06T08:47:43Z loke: Cool. Thanks!
2015-03-06T08:47:58Z Shinmera: I hope it works for you
2015-03-06T08:48:14Z loke: I use my templating language to create HTML emails sent from my application, and I just need to include a text version as well
2015-03-06T08:48:18Z loke: I'll try your tool
2015-03-06T08:49:13Z Shinmera: You might be interested in Softdrink then as well http://shinmera.github.io/softdrink/
2015-03-06T08:49:48Z Shinmera: Since mail HTML doesn't allow stylesheets.
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2015-03-06T08:56:24Z loke: How does lquery specify the "current document"? Is it a global variable?
2015-03-06T08:56:42Z Shinmera: *lquery-master-document*, yes
2015-03-06T08:56:47Z loke: Hmm
2015-03-06T08:57:05Z loke: OK, so I have to bind it dynamically then. My applciation is terribly multi threaded
2015-03-06T08:57:11Z Shinmera: Depends.
2015-03-06T08:57:22Z Shinmera: If you can do everything you need in a single $ call you don't have to
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2015-03-06T08:58:34Z Shinmera: ($ (initialize "<foo>") (add-class "bar") (serialize)) will work just fine in parallel since it expands to (serialize (add-class (initialize "<foo>") "bar"))
2015-03-06T08:58:37Z Shinmera: or at least vaguely.
2015-03-06T08:58:41Z loke: Shinmera: Am I correct in understanding that lquery doesn't actually contain a text-renderer thing? I'll have to wrtite that msyekf.
2015-03-06T08:58:43Z loke: myself.
2015-03-06T08:59:02Z Shinmera: I'm not sure what a "text renderer thing" is
2015-03-06T08:59:19Z loke: I want to take some html content and make a text version of it
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2015-03-06T08:59:49Z Ralt: you might be able to use what eww uses... although it's elisp
2015-03-06T08:59:59Z Shinmera: the (text) function will just extract all the strings from the text nodes. If your line breaks are fortunate, then it'll look good. Otherwise, you'll have to staple it together manually.
2015-03-06T09:00:35Z Ralt: Shinmera: I think he wants something like... if it's a <p>, add 2 line breaks around it, etc
2015-03-06T09:00:41Z loke: Yes
2015-03-06T09:00:41Z Shinmera: Yeah.
2015-03-06T09:00:44Z loke: Exactly
2015-03-06T09:00:56Z loke: I can do it myself, but it'd be nice if it existed already.
2015-03-06T09:00:56Z Shinmera: You'll have to do some work then, I'm sorry to say.
2015-03-06T09:01:12Z Ralt: eww's source code might be an inspiration..
2015-03-06T09:01:20Z Shinmera: Whoops, need to switch rooms, brb.
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2015-03-06T09:07:42Z Quadrescence: ovenpasta
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2015-03-06T09:33:18Z Ralt: what's the delay between each quicklisp release?
2015-03-06T09:33:30Z Shinmera: About a month, usually.
2015-03-06T09:33:41Z Ralt: k
2015-03-06T09:33:43Z Shinmera: You can see for yourself. http://blog.quicklisp.org/
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2015-03-06T09:34:47Z Ralt: looks like it's more 2 months
2015-03-06T09:34:59Z Ralt: (there was no release in february)
2015-03-06T09:35:10Z Shinmera: Yes, but that's an irregularity
2015-03-06T09:35:16Z Ralt: oh.
2015-03-06T09:35:16Z Shinmera: learn your statistics, man.
2015-03-06T09:35:20Z Shinmera: :/
2015-03-06T09:35:33Z Ralt: I just scrolled down to see the last 2 releases...
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2015-03-06T09:36:12Z Ralt: looking at the archives, seems more like each month, indeed.
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2015-03-06T09:48:45Z faheem_: Shinmera: ok. Sorry, wandered off there.
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2015-03-06T10:22:21Z Shinmera: Does anyone know of a library that can decode utf-8 directly from an octet-stream?
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2015-03-06T10:24:20Z Shinmera: Well, flexi-streams can, I guess, but it's too slow.
2015-03-06T10:25:39Z splittist: Shinmera: you want to say read-utf8-char stream ?
2015-03-06T10:25:59Z splittist: s/say/be able to say/
2015-03-06T10:25:59Z Shinmera: splittist: I want to say (read-utf-8-string num-of-octets stream)
2015-03-06T10:25:59Z Ralt: Shinmera: there's trivial-utf-8 and babel
2015-03-06T10:27:06Z Ralt: Shinmera: http://stackoverflow.com/a/602151/851498
2015-03-06T10:27:18Z splittist: and octets-to-string on top of read-sequence is too slow?
2015-03-06T10:27:20Z Ralt: > For this test case, Babel is 337 times faster and needs 200 times less memory.
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2015-03-06T10:28:18Z Shinmera: splittist: The extra consing of that bothers me a bit.
2015-03-06T10:28:53Z Shinmera: Ralt: babel doesn't do reading from streams
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2015-03-06T10:29:29Z Shinmera: Profiling is a bit hard right now, sb-sprof causes memory faults occasionally for some reason.
2015-03-06T10:30:32Z Shinmera: I'm using babel right now, flexi-streams was unbearably slow.
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2015-03-06T10:31:38Z Shinmera: To bring context: I'm writing a binary format for Plump documents. Currently, using babel, it's faster than using the standard Plump text-based XML parser, but not by much. And that bothers me a lot
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2015-03-06T10:32:16Z Ralt: Shinmera: well, trivial-utf-8 reads from streams
2015-03-06T10:32:25Z Shinmera: So I'm looking for potential places to optimise. Since I'm dealing with a lot of strings, the double-allocation of each call might be a point.
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2015-03-06T10:33:11Z Shinmera: Ralt: Alright. I'll have to see how to use that then.
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2015-03-06T10:34:25Z Ralt: Shinmera: https://github.com/skypher/clbuild.mystic/blob/master/source/trivial-utf-8/trivial-utf-8.lisp#L174-L213
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2015-03-06T10:35:13Z Shinmera: Yes, I read the docs.
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2015-03-06T10:36:32Z ovenpasta: Quadrescence: ?
2015-03-06T10:36:41Z Quadrescence: ovenpasta, nice nick
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2015-03-06T10:39:50Z ovenpasta: :)
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2015-03-06T10:45:38Z Shinmera: Whoops, trivial-utf-8 is slower than babel.
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2015-03-06T10:46:58Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: what are you trying to do? I use flexi-streams pretty extensively but I've never felt like it was too slow. Not very fast — yes, slow — no.
2015-03-06T10:47:35Z Shinmera: Using flexi-streams my binary file parsing was almost twice as slow as using my standard xml text parser
2015-03-06T10:47:39Z Shinmera: so.. unacceptably slow.
2015-03-06T10:47:49Z hitecnologys: Oh, I see.
2015-03-06T10:48:02Z hitecnologys: I've never parsed that much data at a time.
2015-03-06T10:48:40Z hitecnologys: Well, I vote for babel as well then.
2015-03-06T10:48:43Z Shinmera: Using fast-io+babel is about 0.5 times faster than the text parser.
2015-03-06T10:48:52Z Shinmera: A bit less than that
2015-03-06T10:49:22Z hitecnologys: 0.5 time faster?
2015-03-06T10:49:27Z hitecnologys: times*
2015-03-06T10:49:29Z Shinmera: Which either means my binary parser is too slow, or my text parser is really, really fast. I'm having a hard time believing the latter.
2015-03-06T10:49:58Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: testing on the same document, text parsing takes about 15 seconds for 1000 iterations, binary takes 10.
2015-03-06T10:50:29Z Shinmera: On the same document meaning the same contents, not the same format.
2015-03-06T10:50:43Z H4ns: of good is it at dealing with errors?
2015-03-06T10:50:46Z Shinmera: The text parser parses a string, the other an octet-vector.
2015-03-06T10:51:03Z Shinmera: H4ns: The text parser?
2015-03-06T10:51:23Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: ah, I've interpreted it as being 0.5*t (where t is the previous time) which confused me as the next word was faster. That's 1.5 faster, no?
2015-03-06T10:51:33Z H4ns: yes - well, i'm probably really asking about babel
2015-03-06T10:51:42Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: that's 1.5 times /as fast/, and 0.5 times /faster/
2015-03-06T10:51:54Z H4ns: one thing that i found flexi-streams to be good at is dealing with encoding errors in the input
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2015-03-06T10:52:06Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I see. My poor English is poor.
2015-03-06T10:52:07Z H4ns: that comes at a price, of course.
2015-03-06T10:52:19Z Shinmera: I'm not interested in that really, since the same program will also produce the output. I just want a fast storage format.
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2015-03-06T10:52:41Z H4ns: ah, ok.
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2015-03-06T10:53:11Z Shinmera: The Plump XML parser is very lenient towards invalid markup though, if you need that kind of thing (which you do for parsing arbitrary websites).
2015-03-06T10:53:42Z Shinmera: Anyway, I'm off to lunch. Hopefully I can do some more fruitful profiling later.
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2015-03-06T10:56:22Z hitecnologys: minion: memo for Shinmera: is it possible that we see some statistical data about all these some time later? I'm really curious about how binary decoders/encoders behave nowadays (and I guess I might be not the only one).
2015-03-06T10:56:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Shinmera when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-03-06T11:31:21Z jackdaniel: emacs on windows works like crap
2015-03-06T11:31:36Z jackdaniel installed win7 trial to find a bug ^_^
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2015-03-06T11:38:10Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: The implementation is here https://github.com/Shinmera/plump-bundle
2015-03-06T11:38:10Z minion: Shinmera, memo from hitecnologys: is it possible that we see some statistical data about all these some time later? I'm really curious about how binary decoders/encoders behave nowadays (and I guess I might be not the only one).
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2015-03-06T11:39:05Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: An average test looks like https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TkRJMw==
2015-03-06T11:39:22Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: neat, thanks.
2015-03-06T11:40:28Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: what did you use to produce those fancy tables?
2015-03-06T11:40:41Z Shinmera: trivial-benchmark
2015-03-06T11:41:05Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/trivial-benchmark/
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2015-03-06T11:42:15Z hitecnologys: Looks nice, thanks again, I'll look into that.
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2015-03-06T11:55:17Z Shinmera: Argh, there's a lot of SUBTRACT-BIGNUM going on apparently, but I have no idea where.
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2015-03-06T12:03:58Z Shinmera: I still don't really know how to read the sprof output. Can anyone tell me more? http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/99#
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2015-03-06T12:57:50Z H4ns: Shinmera: the profile output tells me that you're spending half of your CPU time in the os, and that the rest of the time is distributed over a lot of functions with no low-hanging fruit for optimization.
2015-03-06T12:58:14Z Shinmera: Ah, alright. Thanks!
2015-03-06T12:58:39Z H4ns: Shinmera: if the read calls are using sufficiently large buffers, you'll probably not be able to make it much faster without rearchitecting.
2015-03-06T12:59:02Z H4ns: Shinmera: i would run the statistical profiler for longer runs, though.  you have only 520 samples, which is not enough to draw good conclusions.
2015-03-06T12:59:24Z Shinmera: Right, if I tried running it with 1000 iterations I got memory faults before. I'll try again later.
2015-03-06T12:59:41Z H4ns: Shinmera: also, a deterministic profiler is often more useful to figure out what code paths are actually used much
2015-03-06T13:00:20Z H4ns: Shinmera: try profiling the plump-bundle-readers package.  it will slow down by the profiling a lot, but it will also be much easier to see how the package uses cpu time.
2015-03-06T13:01:11Z H4ns: are you actually dealing with large numbers?
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2015-03-06T13:07:46Z Shinmera: I should not be, no
2015-03-06T13:07:54Z Shinmera: babel might, I have no idea what's going on in there.
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2015-03-06T13:08:49Z H4ns: if you don't deal with bignums, you should try to get rid of the bignum handling once you have verified that the bignum related stuff contributes as much as it appears from the limited profile output that you've shown.
2015-03-06T13:09:01Z Shinmera: Right.
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2015-03-06T13:11:37Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted|Hunchentoot 1.2.31, SBCL 1.2.7
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2015-03-06T13:48:12Z oleo: :) hello
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2015-03-06T13:49:17Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-03-06T13:55:26Z Ralt: hm
2015-03-06T13:55:34Z Ralt: I wonder if postmodern can run several queries at once
2015-03-06T13:55:46Z Ralt: ... I'm wondering that because I want to load an sql file
2015-03-06T13:56:00Z oleo: test it....
2015-03-06T13:56:13Z oleo: if it can handle parallel....
2015-03-06T13:56:20Z Ralt: oleo: yup. I just have the bad habit of using this channel as my rubber duck.
2015-03-06T13:56:32Z Ralt: sorry about that ._.
2015-03-06T13:56:38Z oleo: no problem....
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2015-03-06T14:27:23Z pjb: Ralt: #lispcafe is the designated rubber duck of lispers.
2015-03-06T14:29:51Z Shinmera: I use twitter.
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2015-03-06T14:35:40Z H4ns: oleo: it can do that, but you need to use separate connections for your parallel queries.
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2015-03-06T14:36:19Z H4ns: oleo: that is not actually a postmodern restriction.  postgres only allows one outstanding query on each connection.
2015-03-06T14:37:05Z oleo: oh
2015-03-06T14:37:27Z oleo: well how expensive is it to use more connections ?
2015-03-06T14:37:37Z H4ns: oleo: what do you mean by "how expensive"?
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2015-03-06T14:38:09Z H4ns: oleo: if your database service provider accounts you per connection, using more connections is more expensive
2015-03-06T14:38:17Z oleo: aah
2015-03-06T14:38:18Z oleo: ok
2015-03-06T14:38:22Z oleo: i get it now
2015-03-06T14:38:48Z oleo: if you own the db there's no problem tho is there ?
2015-03-06T14:39:11Z sol__: looking for a simple set collection implementation...
2015-03-06T14:39:35Z H4ns: oleo: no.  but your application will not necessarily become faster if you're sending more queries to the database in parallel.
2015-03-06T14:39:59Z H4ns: oleo: up to some point it propably will.  just keep in mind that adding connections does not mean adding performance.
2015-03-06T14:40:26Z H4ns: sol__: if your needs are simple and your sets are small, lists are just fine as set representation.
2015-03-06T14:40:36Z sol__: my sets aren't small
2015-03-06T14:40:51Z H4ns: sol__: then a simple set library won't do :) - have a look at fset
2015-03-06T14:41:12Z sol__: looking at it, too complex for my taste
2015-03-06T14:41:12Z H4ns: sol__: if you want simple and fast, use hash tables
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2015-03-06T14:41:40Z sol__: yea i'm writing my own impl, since i can't something easy to use
2015-03-06T14:41:46Z sol__: find *
2015-03-06T14:44:30Z rick-monster: I was able to achieve a four-times speed increase using 8 threads with an application that was bottlenecking on mysql queries.
2015-03-06T14:45:19Z H4ns: rick-monster: it all depends on the type of the queries and the configuration of the database service.  that is the "up to a point" bit.
2015-03-06T14:45:20Z rick-monster: In the end though it was useless because the way I implemented the threading totally screwed up conditions, restarts etc
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2015-03-06T15:05:41Z Shinmera: H4ns: I used (sb-profile:profile "PLUMP-BUNDLE-READERS") and after running the parser a 10'000 times (a few minutes of total run time) (sb-profile:report) just printed an empty table. Am I missing something?
2015-03-06T15:06:43Z Shinmera: Ah, nevermind, I see what's going wrong now.
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2015-03-06T15:42:03Z jackdaniel: hehe, whole day lost, but chinease will be able to compile ecl on windows with their native charset \o/ had to change only one line
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2015-03-06T15:43:11Z Shinmera: H4ns: Looks like fast-io:readu32-be which I used to retrieve my size counters was wasting a lot of time doing unnecessary things. Changing that to a more direct and optimised way of reading the integer sped things up a lot
2015-03-06T15:43:35Z Shinmera: plump-bundle is now about 10 times faster than the text parser.
2015-03-06T15:43:49Z Shinmera: That's more like it.
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2015-03-06T15:50:45Z Shinmera: But I think I can do better.
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2015-03-06T15:56:24Z k-stz: Is there a lisp meetup, user group or the likes in germany?
2015-03-06T15:56:51Z Shinmera: yes. https://twitter.com/berlinlispers
2015-03-06T15:57:05Z H4ns: the berlin lisp meeting is basically dead.
2015-03-06T15:57:13Z H4ns: well, not basically.  it is dead.
2015-03-06T15:57:21Z Shinmera: Ah, shame. Well, there was one then.
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2015-03-06T15:59:27Z k-stz: It was even monthly, nice. I hope someone could surprise us with a new one
2015-03-06T15:59:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: they must have been too busy writing code
2015-03-06T15:59:39Z H4ns: k-stz: you can be the one.
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2015-03-06T16:00:18Z k-stz: H4ns: well I'd need to convice my friends first to even try lisp
2015-03-06T16:00:44Z H4ns: k-stz: if you are in berlin, there is a handful of lispers who'll attend the meeting
2015-03-06T16:00:57Z H4ns: k-stz: it is just that the meeting has run out of an organizer.
2015-03-06T16:01:31Z k-stz: H4ns: I live in BW, so I could only really attend on vacations, it's too far
2015-03-06T16:01:40Z H4ns: k-stz: ah, understood.
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2015-03-06T16:05:00Z k-stz: How's the situation in other countries? I imagine in the us you have a lot? How is it elsewhere?
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2015-03-06T16:05:56Z Shinmera: I don't know of any lispers at all that live in Switzerland.
2015-03-06T16:06:51Z Xach: Luke Gorrie
2015-03-06T16:06:59Z Xach: More of a former lisper, but once your'e in the club
2015-03-06T16:07:15Z Shinmera: Oh, right, yes I forgot about him.
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2015-03-06T16:33:47Z splittist: jsnell (perhaps former as well)?
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2015-03-06T16:36:16Z splittist: Shinmera: there are/used to be some lispers hidden at CERN; and there is some scheme-ishness around EPFL and alums. But the Swiss Lisp Users Network (dream url lun.ch) never really materialised...
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2015-03-06T16:41:33Z burtons`: morning
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2015-03-06T16:42:00Z Shinmera: splittist: Well, both EPFL and CERN are quite a ways from me.
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2015-03-06T16:43:17Z splittist: But still in Switzerland! (And may not seem far to those in continent-sized countries...) When I lived in ZRH I thought all the Lispers must be in the West. Now that I'm in GVA I think they're all in the East...
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2015-03-06T16:44:38Z Shinmera: I suppose. Still, I wouldn't want to travel down to Genève for a meetup.
2015-03-06T16:45:29Z Shinmera: Meanwhile I think I cut down as much as I can without having to reimplement babel: https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TkRNeA==
2015-03-06T16:45:52Z Shinmera: 2.7x speedup is good enough for now.
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2015-03-06T16:54:37Z jasom: Ralt: I wrote something that uses symbols instead of strings for package names; it was really only a proof-of-concept though, as it involved generating a ~1GB readtable
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2015-03-06T16:55:10Z jasom: Also parts of it are AGPL3 since I used a lisp reader implementation that was AGPL3
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2015-03-06T16:57:06Z jasom: (thanks for making it a 1-2 hour project rather than a week or two long project pjb, by the way)
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2015-03-06T16:59:00Z Shinmera sheds a single black tear of liquid sorrow for the lack of a reader extension protocol.
2015-03-06T16:59:09Z jasom: Shinmera: I know
2015-03-06T16:59:23Z jasom: Shinmera: that's the one thing I would change about CL, if I could
2015-03-06T16:59:43Z Shinmera: I'd also change packages
2015-03-06T16:59:59Z jasom: Shinmera: how would you do it? (Obviously it's an interest of mine)
2015-03-06T17:00:10Z eudoxia: i think packages are fine
2015-03-06T17:00:10Z minion: eudoxia, memo from jasom: https://github.com/jasom/parenscriptx
2015-03-06T17:00:16Z eudoxia: oh thanks jasom
2015-03-06T17:00:19Z Shinmera: Making package-local nicknames a requirement.
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2015-03-06T17:00:47Z eudoxia: tbh packages + asdf provides a far more reasonable system than *shudders* python imports
2015-03-06T17:00:54Z jasom: Shinmera: ah, playing around with symbols-as-package-names, I found to be really nice
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2015-03-06T17:00:56Z eudoxia: which is a shame since every language is adopting that filth
2015-03-06T17:01:06Z Shinmera: eudoxia: http://shinmera.com/quotes.html#worse
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2015-03-06T17:01:51Z eudoxia: Shinmera: but overall they're fine
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2015-03-06T17:02:24Z Shinmera: Something that I'd like changed about ASDF is enforcing a version naming scheme
2015-03-06T17:02:31Z jasom: eudoxia: the big issue is that since nicknames are global, using short nicknames for your packages doesn't play well with others
2015-03-06T17:02:45Z Shinmera: Then, coupled with beach's FCGE dependency hell would be a solved problem.
2015-03-06T17:02:48Z eudoxia: Shinmera: that would be useful
2015-03-06T17:03:07Z eudoxia: jasom: the solution is to not use nicknames :p
2015-03-06T17:03:27Z jasom: eudoxia: right, but that is annoying without package-local nicknames (or some other solution like the one I proposed)
2015-03-06T17:03:32Z Shinmera: That's not a solution
2015-03-06T17:03:39Z Shinmera: It's just exchanging the problem for a different one
2015-03-06T17:04:00Z eudoxia: if the package name is too long just use an :import-from in the package def so your code wont be littered with packeged symbols
2015-03-06T17:04:15Z Shinmera: And then you get name conflicts and confusion
2015-03-06T17:04:16Z Shinmera: No thanks
2015-03-06T17:04:19Z jasom: eudoxia: then you clash on symbol names
2015-03-06T17:04:45Z jasom: the canonical name for something can't be short, if you don't have a centrally managed registry
2015-03-06T17:04:57Z eudoxia: yeah that's a problem
2015-03-06T17:05:06Z eudoxia: but i was only really bitten in the ass by that once
2015-03-06T17:05:09Z jasom: long names have readability issues
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2015-03-06T17:07:21Z Shinmera: I still think Java's package system is quite aight.
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2015-03-06T17:07:40Z Shinmera: Though that might just be a remnant of my Java Days™
2015-03-06T17:09:42Z jasom: I just remember classes like: AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean
2015-03-06T17:10:14Z Shinmera: I luckily never had to deal with that kind of horror.
2015-03-06T17:10:47Z jasom: we had to make a mini-java in our compiler's class, and one of my friend's added an extension where if the class name was shorter than 8 characters, and didn't include at least one pattern from the GoF book, it would warn.
2015-03-06T17:10:57Z eudoxia googles it and discovers its an actual class
2015-03-06T17:11:00Z jasom: s/and didn't/or didn't
2015-03-06T17:12:08Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Why did you even doubt that.
2015-03-06T17:12:28Z eudoxia: Shinmera: i guess i have too much hope and faith in the world shinmera
2015-03-06T17:12:33Z jasom: Shinmera: eudoxia has clearly never encountered any Enterprise™ Java code
2015-03-06T17:12:50Z eudoxia: i don't even know java #youth #younging #rebel
2015-03-06T17:13:10Z Xach skipped java by predating it
2015-03-06T17:13:28Z Shinmera: jasom: Or he isn't cynical enough to expect reality
2015-03-06T17:13:31Z jasom: I think there's a factory-factory somewhere in Spring
2015-03-06T17:13:54Z adeht: I managed to avoid java until android came along :/
2015-03-06T17:14:50Z jasom: ObjectFactoryCreatingFactoryBean
2015-03-06T17:14:57Z Shinmera: Nice.
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2015-03-06T17:15:17Z Shinmera: My last Java project is actually on github still. https://github.com/Shinmera/kizai
2015-03-06T17:15:18Z jasom: I was right in the place where all the Colleges adopted Java for like 5 years
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2015-03-06T17:15:28Z Shinmera: Surprise surprise, it's another IRC bot.
2015-03-06T17:16:15Z adeht: they have this build system called gradle.. see documentation.. chapter 51 is "dependency management"
2015-03-06T17:16:41Z jasom: adeht: I missed gradle, but had to suffer through ant
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2015-03-06T17:17:16Z eudoxia: jesus christ https://gradle.org/docs/current/userguide/userguide.html
2015-03-06T17:18:01Z jasom: Anyway lisp
2015-03-06T17:18:15Z eudoxia: yes
2015-03-06T17:18:15Z Shinmera: I'm gonna go for dinner. Cheerio!
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2015-03-06T17:37:45Z sebboh: Hello.  I'm using CL (sbcl).  I have a little program that uses (read-line) in a loop and does some math on numbers I (the user) provide.  There are two modes of operation...  The default is mode A but I can tell the computer that the following numbers should be sent to the mode B routine by prefixing the line with a . character, then checking each input line for that character...  But I'd rather have a hotkey!  How do I do that?
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2015-03-06T17:40:05Z jasom: sebboh: you need to not use read-line; how you grab a keystroke from the terminal may depend on the operating system
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2015-03-06T17:42:17Z jasom: on linux, for example, the standard-input starts out as line buffered, so you won't get any kestrokes untill enter/return is pressed
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2015-03-06T17:45:08Z jasom: I think sbcl has a contrib for terminal streams
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2015-03-06T18:24:39Z sebboh: I know sbcl can catch and service a ctrl-c even before I press enter.
2015-03-06T18:25:42Z paroneayea: dumb question, but I don't understand really why #'(lambda) is needed for mapcar, since it isn't being assigned to a symbol?
2015-03-06T18:25:48Z sebboh: jasom, This? https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/contrib/sb-simple-streams/terminal.lisp
2015-03-06T18:25:49Z paroneayea: why not just (lambda)
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2015-03-06T18:26:18Z Bicyclidine: paroneayea: (mapcar (lambda ...) ...) works fine.
2015-03-06T18:26:23Z Bicyclidine: i don't know what you mean about symbols, though.
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2015-03-06T18:26:29Z jasom: sebboh: C-c is handled by the terminal, it sends a SIGINT to the process
2015-03-06T18:26:30Z paroneayea: Bicyclidine: ah, hm, guess I should have looked first :)
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2015-03-06T18:26:43Z paroneayea: Bicyclidine: I see that Paul Graham uses #'(lambda) in On Lisp
2015-03-06T18:26:46Z paroneayea: and it was confusing me
2015-03-06T18:27:02Z Bicyclidine: paroneayea: lambda is a macro such that (lambda ...) expands into (function (lambda ...)), which #'(lambda ...) is short for
2015-03-06T18:27:02Z paroneayea: I thought #'symbol was for accessing symbols in the # namespace
2015-03-06T18:27:06Z jasom: paroneayea: LAMBDA is defined to be a macro that expands to (function (lambda))
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2015-03-06T18:27:18Z paroneayea: oh okay
2015-03-06T18:27:25Z jasom: paroneayea: #'foo is the same as (function foo)
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2015-03-06T18:27:34Z paroneayea: ahhh
2015-03-06T18:27:35Z paroneayea: I see
2015-03-06T18:27:35Z jasom: clhs function
2015-03-06T18:27:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm
2015-03-06T18:27:39Z paroneayea: thanks jasom, Bicyclidine
2015-03-06T18:27:52Z jasom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_fn.htm
2015-03-06T18:28:05Z sebboh: jasom, there's something odd about the idea that stdin is linebuffered.  ...Arrow keys work in ncurses applications.
2015-03-06T18:28:23Z jasom: sebboh: because ncurses uses the terminal device
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2015-03-06T18:28:38Z jasom: sebboh: there are ncurses bindings for lisp you can use; I've never tried them before
2015-03-06T18:30:32Z jasom: http://www.cliki.net/console <-- partial list there
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2015-03-06T18:31:25Z sebboh: So using SB-SIMPLE-STREAMS, I can open the (virtual) terminal device as a stream.  ...I think that's what I want.  Yes, I have seen some ncurses bindings, but I'm not interested in them.  Before I had this hotkey idea, I found that manually specified traditional ansi escape sequences were enough magic for my purposes.  Thanks for your help jasom!
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2015-03-06T18:31:58Z jasom: sebboh: no problem, and good luck!
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2015-03-06T18:34:35Z jasom: sebboh: I have an example that grovels termios to do low-level terminal stuff if you care
2015-03-06T18:34:52Z jasom: the advantage of not being sbcl-specific (should work on any lisp that uses cffi)
2015-03-06T18:35:03Z sebboh: grovels?  I keep seeing that word.
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2015-03-06T18:35:48Z jasom: I don't know how it got its current meaning; it's basically scraping code
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2015-03-06T18:36:04Z Bicyclidine: like looking over C headers and generating cffi stuff from them
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2015-03-06T18:36:52Z sebboh: It maps out the structs and such.  Nice.  I could have used that last month.  Well, there wasn't any such functionality in picolisp. :)
2015-03-06T18:38:59Z sebboh: jasom, nope, I don't need to interact directly (semidirectly) with termios today. But thank you. :)
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2015-03-06T18:42:11Z jasom: sebboh: github.com/jasom/clinenoise if you ever need to
2015-03-06T18:42:33Z jasom: just a straight-up port of linenoise in pure-lisp (with one minor feature added)
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2015-03-06T19:29:19Z jackdaniel: it's better to replace (set v *whatever*) with (setf (symbol-value v) *whatever*), right?
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2015-03-06T19:29:39Z Bicyclidine: yes
2015-03-06T19:29:56Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-03-06T19:44:37Z jasom: generalized referrences are awesome
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2015-03-06T20:19:38Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I'm done. http://shinmera.github.io/plump-bundle/
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2015-03-06T22:39:01Z rak[1]: is picolisp small enough subset of lisp to be able to run on microcontrollers?
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2015-03-06T22:39:19Z rak[1]: i recently came across microscheme and last night deployed a test program to an atmega328 i had
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2015-03-06T22:45:28Z oGMo: picolisp isn't really a subset of CL in any meaningful way is it?
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2015-03-06T23:16:30Z White_Flame: rak[1]: depends on what size microcontroller you're talking about.  I wouldn't expect any Lisp system to run in 256bytes of ram, et
2015-03-06T23:16:32Z White_Flame: for example
2015-03-06T23:16:55Z pjb: Neither would you fit a C compiler in 256 bytes of RAM!
2015-03-06T23:17:39Z White_Flame: no, but you could in theory compile a C program to fit, dpeending on its use of stdlib
2015-03-06T23:18:31Z pjb: Similarly, you can compile a lisp program to fit.
2015-03-06T23:21:14Z rak[1]: aye. i have thought about writing a lisp 1.5 for AVR, but i just haven't gotten around to it
2015-03-06T23:21:20Z rak[1]: pretty happy then however to find microscheme
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2015-03-06T23:23:41Z White_Flame: pjb:  Right.  A lisp program, yes, but a lisp "system" with repl, likely not
2015-03-06T23:26:44Z rak[1]: i am curious what the boundaries are.
2015-03-06T23:27:36Z White_Flame: in theory, you could "compile" a Lisp program down to where it doesn't need to remember the names of symbols of what was compiled and suhc, which would be quite tiny
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2015-03-06T23:27:54Z White_Flame: however, how big of a microcontroller are you considering?
2015-03-06T23:28:00Z White_Flame: in terms of RAM specifically
2015-03-06T23:28:49Z White_Flame: one consideration is that the lisp interpreter itself would be in flash, but the lisp program itself would likely be in ram under normal dynamic expectations
2015-03-06T23:30:17Z White_Flame: I was going to mention harvard architecture limitations, but since at this scale you're likely talking about an interpreter, there doesn't need to be any code in ram
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