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2015-02-28T00:29:05Z jasom: Ah yes, the stack management of clisp.  I like to say it's written in "C" rather than C
2015-02-28T00:29:32Z pjb: Yes.  It looks like nobody knows how to write conforming C programs.
2015-02-28T00:29:50Z jasom: pjb: for the most part most people writing in C don't *want* to write conforming C programs
2015-02-28T00:30:02Z jasom: They want to write typed assembly, and the (ab)use C to that effect
2015-02-28T00:31:27Z pjb: "abc"+3!
2015-02-28T00:32:03Z jasom: There was about a 10-20 year period where applications written in C were common, and then there was some concern for portability, but for much of that time everyone was using either a PCC derivitive or GCC, so it only needed to work on those
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2015-02-28T00:36:53Z Bike: maybe some ports from fortran
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2015-02-28T04:03:54Z brian_o: hi there. i'm looking for a quicklisp library that can do combinations and permutations. any hints?
2015-02-28T04:04:32Z brian_o: i saw cl-permutation, but i'm looking for combinations as well. does it do that too?
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2015-02-28T05:15:00Z pjb: brian_o:  (apropos "COMBINATIONS") gives com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.combination:combinations
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2015-02-28T05:26:09Z brian_o: cool, thanks
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2015-02-28T05:26:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-02-28T05:28:23Z axion: morning beach
2015-02-28T05:28:50Z beach: pjb: I tend to agree with you.  The combined amount of time spent debugging problems due to the use of FFI could be used to make the problem go away by joining forces and making sure we have what we need in Lisp.
2015-02-28T05:30:05Z axion: i did manage to solve my pathfinding problem. thanks for your input
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2015-02-28T05:30:30Z beach: axion: Oh, sure.  I am not sure I was very helpful though.  Sorry about that.
2015-02-28T05:30:46Z beach: pjb: There is a problem though.  Most people think in terms of short-term solutions to their own problems, and such thinking favors the FFI approach over the other.
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2015-02-28T05:32:59Z Quadrescence: What are we agreeing with?
2015-02-28T05:33:30Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-02-28T05:34:05Z Quadrescence: brian_o, CL-PERMUTATION does not do combinations currently
2015-02-28T05:34:10Z beach: Quadrescence: pjb basically said "Instead of debugging FFI code, why don't you just rewrite it in Lisp".
2015-02-28T05:34:36Z Quadrescence: oh, I see
2015-02-28T05:34:55Z Quadrescence: there are of course many good reasons for not writing something in Lisp
2015-02-28T05:35:02Z axion: such as opengl
2015-02-28T05:35:02Z beach: Would that problem be related to the prisoners' dilemma?
2015-02-28T05:35:31Z beach: Quadrescence: Name two.
2015-02-28T05:35:40Z beach: axion: Why OpenGL?
2015-02-28T05:36:36Z nyef: beach: OpenGL because the vendors often won't provide specs, the open source code is fiendishly complex and not well documented, and so on.
2015-02-28T05:36:41Z Quadrescence: 1. It may not be reasonable to write a particular implementation of something in Lisp due to efficiency reasons. Things, like hash functions, tend to exploit C unsigned arithmetic conventions and it may be better off in C.
2015-02-28T05:36:54Z axion: the spec is ever-changing and huge
2015-02-28T05:37:16Z Quadrescence: 2. The library in C may be extensive and fall outside the domain of expertise of the user. Greenspunning the C library might likely end up buggier.
2015-02-28T05:37:23Z nyef: Ah, right, and the "Red Queen's race" aspect to it.
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2015-02-28T05:38:22Z beach: Quadrescence: For 1, I think that's why SBCL added modulo arithmetic, no?
2015-02-28T05:38:41Z Quadrescence: SBCL does very well with #1
2015-02-28T05:39:02Z Quadrescence: If your implementation is SBCL, #1 may not be a concern for you.
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2015-02-28T05:39:22Z beach: Quadrescence: For 2, that's why I didn't totally agree with pjb.  I am just remarking that the combined waste of time could be used to make life easier for everyone.
2015-02-28T05:39:48Z Quadrescence: Of course, I prefer a library in Lisp. :)
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2015-02-28T05:40:18Z beach: Quadrescence: I know this is kind of quaint, but I am taking this weird global approach that one person can write software that some other person might use.
2015-02-28T05:40:25Z pjb: As an alternative, in a lot of case it may be better to use a socket API than FFI.  Perhaps writing a little sever in C, and connecting to it with a lisp library thru sockets.  This let you avoid most of the problems with FFI.
2015-02-28T05:40:55Z Quadrescence: SBCL did extremely well with my implementation of MurmurHash 3: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/murmurhash3
2015-02-28T05:41:08Z Quadrescence: Other implementations, not so well, but maybe because I didn't super optimize for them.
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2015-02-28T05:41:39Z beach: Quadrescence: Nice.
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2015-02-28T05:46:57Z nyef: I need to get some sleep.
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2015-02-28T05:50:00Z beach: Quadrescence: I mostly think that airing my opinion on this matter is a waste of time just like it is a collective waste of time to debug FFI code, but occasionally, I find I need to say what I think.  Mostly I just put my money where my mouth is.
2015-02-28T05:50:20Z Quadrescence: :)
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2015-02-28T06:23:00Z ktt9: hello
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2015-02-28T06:29:28Z ktt9: I stumbled upon a fact that CLHS states that in use section of defpackage form, as well as in usepackage, package designator must be either a string or a package object itself. But everyone uses keyword for that. How come?
2015-02-28T06:30:24Z Quadrescence: ktt9, not a string, a string *designator*
2015-02-28T06:30:45Z Quadrescence: ktt9, that is a: character, symbol (therefore keyword), or string
2015-02-28T06:31:15Z ktt9: oh
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2015-02-28T06:31:18Z ktt9: I see
2015-02-28T06:31:30Z ktt9: Thank you.
2015-02-28T06:35:19Z ktt9: ugh. it takes me longer to get used to hyperspecs formalism than I thought...
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2015-02-28T07:03:33Z brian_o: any thoughts on maximum line length in code? older books say 80, Google guidelines suggest 100... any semi-authoritative sources say differently?
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2015-02-28T07:04:33Z beach: As long as my monitors have only 1600 pixel horizontally, I go for 80, so that I can split the screen in two and have code on one half and REPL on the other.
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2015-02-28T07:06:08Z |3b| uses 80 even on wider screens, i'd rather have more columns than a few wider columns with mostly empty space on the side
2015-02-28T07:06:54Z beach: I tend to agree.
2015-02-28T07:07:41Z beach: I am planning to buy two 4K screens, but apparently no combination of GNU/Linux + graphics card + drivers supports that yet.  Even so, I plan to stick with 80.
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2015-02-28T07:09:45Z beach: MAYBE one day when I have an IDE that lets me use a proportional font while still showing indentation correctly, I might change my mind.
2015-02-28T07:09:52Z axion: i've always heard 79, to notice when the line wraps
2015-02-28T07:10:56Z beach: When 80 was a hard limit, sure.  Now, it is more fuzzy.
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2015-02-28T07:11:44Z axion: well even though we have wide displays and high resolutions these days, in the world of typography, it is known that something is easier to read with less eye/head movement
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2015-02-28T07:12:28Z beach: My split-screen Emacs with 1600 pixels can actually handle 84 characters in each half.
2015-02-28T07:12:59Z beach: axion: That's a good point.
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2015-02-28T07:13:47Z beach: Though with a proportional font, you could squeeze in more characters without making the text wider.
2015-02-28T07:15:33Z Quadrescence: RIP my in-source ASCII art with prop. fonts.
2015-02-28T07:15:55Z beach: Indeed.
2015-02-28T07:16:22Z axion: true. heh i use a very small 8pt monospaced bitmap font at 97dpi on a 50" monitor :)
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2015-02-28T07:17:20Z Quadrescence: I found a certain pleasure in sitting far away with a terminal with a huge font
2015-02-28T07:17:32Z Quadrescence: the higher velocity my cursor moves the more work it looks like i get done
2015-02-28T07:17:57Z beach: Great! :)
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2015-02-28T07:27:52Z beach: Since I have presbyopia, I can't put my monitors close, or if I did, I would have to wear glasses.  It is not practical to have the monitors close though.  So what kind of optical device would allow me to see my monitors maybe 80cm distance as if they were close up and I were using reading glasses?
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2015-02-28T07:29:11Z beach: If I could find such a device, I could split my 1600dpi monitor in 3 and have 2 simultaneous source files in addition to the REPL in a single monitor.
2015-02-28T07:29:45Z beach: ... or I could just find a way of putting my monitors closer.
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2015-02-28T07:31:39Z axion: i have a problem :/
2015-02-28T07:33:26Z Quadrescence: beach, i think glasses are fine optical devices
2015-02-28T07:33:47Z Quadrescence: beach, or get a huge fresnel lens ;)
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2015-02-28T07:36:08Z beach: Quadrescence: Sure, glasses are fine.  Except that they can't fix this problem without my moving the monitors closer.
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2015-02-28T07:37:54Z beach: I think the device I am looking for is a feeble version of binoculars.
2015-02-28T07:38:05Z Quadrescence: oh I misinterpreted you
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2015-02-28T07:42:46Z grantix: beach: Get a VR headset and emulate monitors at appropriate distance?
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2015-02-28T07:43:24Z beach: That's not a bad idea actually.  If I could just get data on the resolution of such devices.
2015-02-28T07:44:02Z Quadrescence: that would be annoying if the headset did not support translational tracking
2015-02-28T07:44:10Z beach: It would have to be something like pixels/steradian
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2015-02-28T07:46:43Z grantix: beach: You would probably have to pay a premium to get a decent resolution, for few more years into "gaming" picks it up en masse.
2015-02-28T07:48:18Z beach: grantix: I am thinking the same.  But I am also thinking that if such a device could be manufactured that would make it possible for stock traders to replace their 8 monitors with a single headset, I could get rich selling such a device to them, because they would be willing to pay good money.
2015-02-28T07:48:58Z grantix: beach: The second Oculus Rift Devkit is 1080p, or 960x1080 an eye. That's probably a good gauge, seeing that they are likely going to be the big competition in the gaming market and competitors would want to at least hit this.
2015-02-28T07:49:10Z Quadrescence: beach, imagining the future of hedge funds to be full of quants with VR sets on... sounds like the start to some dystopian future movie
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2015-02-28T07:49:28Z grantix: AR & VR is going to take over the world.
2015-02-28T07:49:59Z grantix: I suspected AR will fully takeover smartphones and smartwatches in about a decades time.
2015-02-28T07:50:15Z beach: Quadrescence: I think it will happen.
2015-02-28T07:50:37Z grantix: beach: I can't see it not.
2015-02-28T07:50:39Z beach: grantix: As I said, I need a number in pixels/steradian.
2015-02-28T07:50:55Z beach: ... which they of course cleverly won't give me.
2015-02-28T07:50:59Z grantix: beach: Ah, well I don't know where I would be able to find that.
2015-02-28T07:52:10Z beach: The thing is, our eyes don't need a good resolution outside of a very narrow angle, so a device with high resolution in the middle and not so high outside would be fine as long as it is fast for tracking head and eye movement.
2015-02-28T07:52:40Z grantix: True.
2015-02-28T07:52:50Z beach: That is why it is so wasteful to have 8 high-resolution monitors when the guy is only looking at a handful of pixels at a time.
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2015-02-28T07:53:12Z beach: Hell, the traders could work on the commuter train.  They would be willing to pay good money for that.
2015-02-28T07:53:32Z grantix: Wouldn't it be cheaper/easier to develop a device that is 4k+ though, than having that good of eyetrackng at this point?
2015-02-28T07:53:52Z beach: No idea.
2015-02-28T07:55:03Z grantix: beach: Then there are people like "magic leap" that is supposively working a way to laser light right into your pixel directly and not via a traditional display.
2015-02-28T07:55:19Z |3b|: beach: pixels/steradians will be low for quite a while in gaming VR devices, since wide FoV is more important than high pixel density
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2015-02-28T07:55:47Z grantix: Well "according to sources" -- right now, "Magic Leap" seems like flimflam due to it's marketing and lack of tangible product.
2015-02-28T07:55:47Z beach: |3b|: I was guessing that.
2015-02-28T07:56:08Z |3b|: and "middle" covers quite a wide range unless you can move the display around at very high speeds to track eye position
2015-02-28T07:56:44Z |3b|: so more likely will be high res displays with most of it blurry to reduce bandwidth and computation costs, rather than reducing number of physical pixels
2015-02-28T07:56:59Z |3b|: since pixels are actually relatively cheap
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2015-02-28T07:58:45Z grantix: I find it more likely that I'll end up with a 4k VR headset before I get a 4k monitor at this point...
2015-02-28T07:58:58Z grantix: I still don't have a SSD that is big enough to do anything with.
2015-02-28T07:59:05Z grantix: 6.5 GB.
2015-02-28T07:59:24Z grantix: Maybe if I didn't install Texlive...
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2015-02-28T08:00:20Z |3b|: 4k HMD is hard because of bandwidth issues, since you need high framerate too. probably could get panels for it already, or within a year or 2. rendering fast enough and getting the data to it is a bit harder
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2015-02-28T08:00:36Z grantix: fierydiarreha, had to run like the wind.
2015-02-28T08:00:47Z |3b|: lucky to even refresh them at 60Hz currently, and for an HMD you really want 75, preferably 90+
2015-02-28T08:01:18Z |3b|: while a monitor can get away with 45
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2015-02-28T08:01:57Z |3b|: at least for the sort of content that started the discussion (code/data/etc)
2015-02-28T08:02:23Z grantix: I don't think I've ever used a non-gimmick VR headset; Once they mature, I feel like (even though I can strongly visualize what'll be like) I will still be blownaway.
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2015-02-28T08:03:29Z Quadrescence: good ol' days of politically incorrect lisp https://trac.common-lisp.net/mit-cadr/browser/trunk/lisp/lmio/qfile.lisp?rev=237#L1414
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2015-02-28T08:03:45Z grantix: It opens you up to do some really cool things though, I think, like being able to track your hands and manifest what appears to be 3d-styled changes in your environment.
2015-02-28T08:04:28Z grantix: Quadrescence: Should I be able to see it right away?
2015-02-28T08:04:39Z grantix is on a painkiller and is fairly tired ... :^I
2015-02-28T08:05:01Z Quadrescence: If your browser automatically scrolls to the linked anchor
2015-02-28T08:05:32Z grantix: Ah, "FS F'd" .
2015-02-28T08:05:52Z grantix: "GNOME Web" scrolled a bit too far down.
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2015-02-28T08:06:26Z grantix: I feel like such a heathen, being on GNOME and using their browser -- after such a long stay in Stumpwm and Conkeror. :^/
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2015-02-28T08:07:51Z grantix: I guess I'm still living 90% of my life through Emacs, and the rest is your a support system thereof ... so it doesn't matter a bunch ultimately.
2015-02-28T08:08:12Z grantix: Just feels real weird, to be back in the floating WM space.
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2015-02-28T08:11:43Z grantix: Okay, need to stop pondering over stupidity and head to bed -- or at least make a strong attempt to.
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2015-02-28T08:11:46Z grantix: Peace people. o/
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2015-02-28T08:50:59Z axion: how do i compare BIT with INTEGER? i've never dealt with BIT before, but the amount of items present in a cl-heap queue are returned as type BIT, and I need to check if it's less than a value
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2015-02-28T08:52:00Z |3b|: BIT is just the subset of INTEGER that is 0 or 1, works like any other integer
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2015-02-28T08:52:28Z axion: that is strange.....(< bit 10) returns true even when bit is 1000
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2015-02-28T08:52:56Z |3b|: 1000 is not of type BIT
2015-02-28T08:53:30Z Quadrescence: if the variable BIT is being declared as BIT then it may be violating the compiler's expectations and be giving you undefined results
2015-02-28T08:53:45Z |3b|: if someone told the compiler it was, it is free to whatever it wants (including assume it is less than 10 since 0 and 1 are both less than 10 and no other value is a BIT)
2015-02-28T08:54:07Z axion: okay. well i have a queue size of 591 right now, which is of type bit. and i need to return whether its less than 10 (int) or not
2015-02-28T08:54:24Z |3b|: 591 is not of type bit
2015-02-28T08:54:31Z Quadrescence: a bit will always be less than 10
2015-02-28T08:54:40Z axion: well then they lie to the compiler :/
2015-02-28T08:54:54Z Quadrescence: |3b|, maybe he means the queue's element type is BIT?
2015-02-28T08:54:59Z |3b|: yeah, not much you can do about that aside from file bugs or send patches
2015-02-28T08:55:15Z axion: no, i mean the result of (queue-size queue) = 591 is typeo-of BIT
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2015-02-28T08:55:25Z axion: (type-of)
2015-02-28T08:55:38Z Quadrescence: where do you get that conclusion
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2015-02-28T08:58:58Z |3b| doesn't see anything in cl-heap claiming it is a BIT (or anything else for that matter, it just returns result of (length ...), which is probably a fixnum
2015-02-28T09:00:02Z axion: odd this has to do with loop
2015-02-28T09:00:15Z axion: it is an integer if i do not bind it within a WITH clause
2015-02-28T09:00:23Z axion: why could that be breaking it?
2015-02-28T09:00:44Z |3b|: show us code?
2015-02-28T09:02:29Z axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146008
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2015-02-28T09:03:27Z axion: if i replace the first item in the format line with (type-of qsize) i get a BIT
2015-02-28T09:03:42Z axion: and the loop never finishes which is why i'm inspecting it
2015-02-28T09:03:50Z |3b|: how about if you replace it with qsize?
2015-02-28T09:03:51Z axion: it should terminate when qsize is too large
2015-02-28T09:04:01Z axion: i get an integer displayed
2015-02-28T09:04:01Z |3b|: qaize never changes
2015-02-28T09:04:07Z axion: yes it does
2015-02-28T09:04:08Z |3b|: which integer
2015-02-28T09:04:11Z axion: a bunch
2015-02-28T09:04:16Z Quadrescence: no
2015-02-28T09:04:19Z Quadrescence: WITH is static
2015-02-28T09:04:21Z |3b|: the variable qsize, not the queue size
2015-02-28T09:04:40Z |3b|: WITH binds it once, and never updates it
2015-02-28T09:04:50Z |3b|: FOR updates it every iteration
2015-02-28T09:04:57Z axion: ok, yes you're right. i feel dumb now
2015-02-28T09:05:06Z axion: thanks :/
2015-02-28T09:06:27Z Quadrescence: axion, also remember that TYPE-OF finds the type of a *value*, not that which is declared of a variable
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2015-02-28T09:06:55Z Quadrescence: so a variable may contain a value of type BIT at one point, and later be bound to a value of type FOO-BAR
2015-02-28T09:07:05Z axion: ok, i see
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2015-02-28T09:07:53Z axion: i didn't notice that wasn't a for clause. i'm so used to putting with at top for other loops i've been writing
2015-02-28T09:08:01Z axion: stupid mistake
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2015-02-28T09:16:39Z jackdaniel: proper-list is (or (cons t proper-list) null) , is it correct to replace it with (or (cons t nil) (cons t preoper-list) null) ?
2015-02-28T09:16:50Z jackdaniel: s/preoper/proper/
2015-02-28T09:17:35Z Quadrescence: jackdaniel, no
2015-02-28T09:17:44Z Quadrescence: there is no value which has type (CONS T NIL)
2015-02-28T09:17:58Z Shinmera: NIL is not a type.
2015-02-28T09:18:04Z Quadrescence: yes it is
2015-02-28T09:18:14Z ggole: null is the type iirc
2015-02-28T09:18:24Z beach: NIL is indeed a type.
2015-02-28T09:18:31Z Shinmera: Err, yes, it is a type for "nothing".
2015-02-28T09:18:42Z Shinmera: null being the type for NIL.
2015-02-28T09:18:47Z beach: That's different.
2015-02-28T09:18:48Z Quadrescence: jackdaniel, maybe you mean (CONS T (MEMBER NIL)), but (MEMBER NIL) is equivalent to NULL, and if PROPER-LIST can be NULL, then (CONS T PROPER-LIST) includes (CONS T (MEMBER NIL))
2015-02-28T09:18:49Z jackdaniel: erm, then (or (cons t null) (cons t proper-list) null) ?
2015-02-28T09:18:56Z Shinmera: beach: Yes, I was correcting myself.
2015-02-28T09:19:26Z jackdaniel: i want to remove recursion from determining subtypep
2015-02-28T09:19:46Z Quadrescence: jackdaniel, PROPER-LIST is an inherently recursive type
2015-02-28T09:19:55Z beach: jackdaniel: Sure, and (or (cons t null) (cons t (cons t null)) (cons t (cons t (cons t null))) ...)
2015-02-28T09:20:23Z ggole: You could fall back to satisfies, but I doubt that will be an, uh, satisfactory solution
2015-02-28T09:21:02Z Quadrescence: While SATISFIES would not be a recursive type, its predicate would have to be recursive (using the CONS definition of PROPER-LIST)
2015-02-28T09:21:03Z jackdaniel: Quadrescence: I'm aware, I'm thinking how to remove recursion from determining canonical-type of proper-list
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2015-02-28T09:21:41Z Quadrescence: jackdaniel, That would necessarily be a type whose representation is an infinite disjunction as beach implied
2015-02-28T09:22:58Z jackdaniel doesn't understand :|
2015-02-28T09:23:20Z zimbaroo: interesting
2015-02-28T09:23:25Z Quadrescence: Of course, we could do (defdata proper-list (proper-cons t proper-list) proper-nil) which would necessarily require the values to be constructed properly, and as such, a type check is a constant-time operation.
2015-02-28T09:24:37Z ggole: Turning cons into a linear time operation?
2015-02-28T09:25:01Z ggole: Or conservatively disallowing proper lists that were constructed from plain cons lists
2015-02-28T09:25:42Z Quadrescence: PROPER-CONS would be constant time (assuming allocation is constant time)
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2015-02-28T09:26:53Z ggole: I'm not familiar with defdata, I assume it's a macro for ML-style variants?
2015-02-28T09:27:26Z Quadrescence: ggole, https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-algebraic-data-type/raw/7c409a8a2c284d2d29d34469159daee6e43da856/README.txt
2015-02-28T09:28:02Z ggole: Ah, yeah. That's all pretty clear now.
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2015-02-28T09:28:54Z Quadrescence: jackdaniel, If X can be both 0 and (F X), what can X be?
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2015-02-28T09:30:34Z jackdaniel: thanks, I think I understand.
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2015-02-28T09:40:47Z axion: is there a way to export all symbols from a package, even those interned with USE locally from other packages?
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2015-02-28T09:41:33Z Shinmera: clhs do-symbols
2015-02-28T09:41:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm
2015-02-28T09:42:06Z Quadrescence: axion, (do-symbols (v pkg) (export v))
2015-02-28T09:42:18Z jackdaniel: so it is basically impossible to compute conanical-type of recursive data-type?
2015-02-28T09:42:41Z axion: thanks
2015-02-28T09:43:43Z Quadrescence: jackdaniel, you can in a way by extending your type theory with the type equivalent of a Y-combinator, called a "mu type"
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2015-02-28T09:44:00Z Quadrescence: jackdaniel, but for all intents and purposes, you cannot
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2015-02-28T09:45:25Z jackdaniel: thanks a lot, you saved me hours of trial and error work without chance of success :-)
2015-02-28T09:46:17Z axion: Quadrescence: is there a way to do this within a defpackage form?
2015-02-28T09:46:24Z Quadrescence: axion, no
2015-02-28T09:46:40Z axion: where would be a good place to put this?
2015-02-28T09:46:58Z Quadrescence: axion, i think it's a bad idea to do
2015-02-28T09:46:59Z Shinmera: after the defpackage.
2015-02-28T09:47:01Z Quadrescence: so nowhere
2015-02-28T09:47:12Z Quadrescence: Shinmera, that is a bad idea because the symbols wont have been interned yet
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2015-02-28T09:47:24Z Quadrescence: Shinmera, so nothing will get exported
2015-02-28T09:47:32Z Shinmera: The things you :use-d will
2015-02-28T09:47:36Z axion: i have a few packages with a couple hundred symbols, and i would like to make a concatenation of them all
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2015-02-28T09:47:48Z Quadrescence: Shinmera, yes that is true
2015-02-28T09:47:50Z Shinmera: Which is the only scenario I know of where exporting everything is useful: Making a combining package.
2015-02-28T09:48:10Z Quadrescence: if thats the case then yes that is fine
2015-02-28T09:48:48Z Quadrescence: though I recommend only combining exported symbols to avoid clashes (which may still happen of course, but less likely)
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2015-02-28T09:49:43Z axion: ok
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2015-02-28T10:13:06Z beach: Exporting all symbols from a package would also export symbols like temp or loop counters like i and j.  That sounds like a terrible idea.
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2015-02-28T10:14:07Z jackdaniel: one more question - in such situation would it be correct to return values nil, nil for subtypep, if one of types is recursive and t1 and t2 are not eq?
2015-02-28T10:14:31Z jackdaniel: *if any of types
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2015-02-28T11:07:33Z axion: beach: i am aware of that. i only want to use do-external-symbols though
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2015-02-28T11:11:12Z beach: axion: Oh, I misunderstood.  I thought you were trying to export all symbol of a package.
2015-02-28T11:11:44Z axion: beach: nah :)
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2015-02-28T11:20:31Z axion: beach: basically, if package A has 100 symbols exported, and package B has 100 symbols exported, i wanted to make a package C which has the 200 combined symbols interned into C's namespace
2015-02-28T11:21:27Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2015-02-28T11:21:56Z axion: which should include the USE'd package symbols of A and B also
2015-02-28T11:22:27Z beach: But you figured it out, right?
2015-02-28T11:22:33Z axion: it eliminated a lot of time and manual entry, plus the need to sychronize multiple sets of the same data
2015-02-28T11:22:35Z axion: yes
2015-02-28T11:22:59Z beach: Yes, I know, I do things like that all the time.
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2015-02-28T11:25:15Z Shinmera: I'm cleaning up the stack analysis part of the clisp swank implementation so I can use it for dissect and dear lord. Not exactly pretty code
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2015-02-28T11:25:38Z Shinmera is venting and should probably just shut it
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2015-02-28T11:28:40Z beach: Shinmera: For what purpose?
2015-02-28T11:29:31Z Shinmera: dissect is a portability layer to inspect the stack and restarts.
2015-02-28T11:30:02Z Shinmera: And I don't like the idea of leaving out clisp support, even if it is very tempting.
2015-02-28T11:31:17Z beach: I see.  First time I hear about dissect.
2015-02-28T11:31:31Z beach: Do you have a URL for it?
2015-02-28T11:31:32Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/dissect
2015-02-28T11:32:55Z beach: That seems like a very good idea.
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2015-02-28T11:34:06Z Shinmera: All the implementations so far have been pretty easy to write a back-end for.
2015-02-28T11:34:13Z Shinmera: CLisp on the other hand...
2015-02-28T11:34:35Z beach: Is there a canonical site for CLISP?  Or does the CLISP Swank implementation live elsehwere?
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2015-02-28T11:34:41Z beach: elsewhere.
2015-02-28T11:34:46Z Shinmera: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/swank/clisp.lisp
2015-02-28T11:35:34Z beach: I see, so not in the CLISP repository.
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2015-02-28T11:37:07Z Shinmera: The code has to use regexes to get the necessary information from stack frames, since pretty much the only introspection tool you have is to render a frame to string.
2015-02-28T11:37:19Z Shinmera: I still can't get over that.
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2015-02-28T11:47:48Z axion: my lisp game is making great progress as of late
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2015-02-28T11:48:18Z axion: the beginning was rough, never having made a game, 3d graphics manipulation, or the math involved before
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2015-02-28T12:03:25Z Shinmera: Is this even allowed? https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TkRBMQ==
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2015-02-28T12:05:49Z Shinmera: Even (typep (sys::the-frame) (type-of (sys::the-frame))) signals that error, which according to the hyperspec always /has/ to return true.
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2015-02-28T12:06:57Z Shinmera: Grand.
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2015-02-28T12:32:05Z Shinmera: Ergh, I don't think even the swank implementation does what it should anymore.
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2015-02-28T12:32:18Z Shinmera: Or at least the regexes stopped working right at some point.
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2015-02-28T13:04:34Z drmeister: beach: I have a question about the ENTER-INSTRUCTION and it's lambda list - do you have a moment?
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2015-02-28T13:05:13Z beach: Hi drmeister.  Sure.
2015-02-28T13:05:36Z drmeister: Is there a 1:1 map of variables in the lambda list to outputs?
2015-02-28T13:05:47Z drmeister: In the order that they appear in the lambda list?
2015-02-28T13:06:18Z beach: I think that's true, but that might be by accident.
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2015-02-28T13:06:23Z beach: Is that important?
2015-02-28T13:07:18Z drmeister: Oh wait - I may have misinterpreted something.  The lambda list elements - they aren't symbols - are they are values?
2015-02-28T13:07:43Z beach: They are lexical variables.
2015-02-28T13:07:46Z drmeister: It's been a couple of weeks since I worked with the enter instruction.
2015-02-28T13:07:48Z beach: Class instances.
2015-02-28T13:07:58Z drmeister: Right - not symbols.   Ok, I got it then.
2015-02-28T13:08:24Z drmeister: I spent the evening working on my code thinking - "how do I map the values I get to the outputs".
2015-02-28T13:08:46Z drmeister: No problem - I've got it now.
2015-02-28T13:09:03Z beach: Good.
2015-02-28T13:09:06Z drmeister: Thanks
2015-02-28T13:09:25Z beach: I removed the code that introduced the constants for the THE-AST.
2015-02-28T13:09:34Z beach: But I have not had time to test it.
2015-02-28T13:09:50Z drmeister: Excellent!  I can test it if you like - that will just take a moment.
2015-02-28T13:09:51Z beach: I pushed it though, so you may want to try it out.
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2015-02-28T13:11:08Z drmeister: Trying now.
2015-02-28T13:11:33Z drmeister: The problem showed up when I compiled a DOTIMES loop
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2015-02-28T13:13:37Z drmeister: Hang on - I have to fix my argument processing code.
2015-02-28T13:14:45Z drmeister: I wrote the optimized code for <=3 arguments first and that works fine.
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2015-02-28T13:18:15Z Shinmera: Hooray, better stack traces than Slime! https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TkRBMw==
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2015-02-28T13:19:06Z drmeister: Shinmera: Sounds great - which one is the better one (sorry)
2015-02-28T13:19:15Z Shinmera: left is dissect, right is slime.
2015-02-28T13:19:49Z Shinmera: It's still far from as nice as I'd like, but one can only go so far with string parsing :/
2015-02-28T13:19:55Z drmeister: I've been out of the loop - are you writing a replacement for slime or a add on?
2015-02-28T13:20:11Z Shinmera: I'm writing a portability layer for inspecting the stack and restarts.
2015-02-28T13:20:31Z adlai: once it's portable enough, try parsing template wreckages, that's where the big money is :P
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2015-02-28T13:20:42Z beach: Shinmera: Congratulations!
2015-02-28T13:21:07Z drmeister: That sounds really exciting - I'm a huge fan of powerful debugging tools - in particular ones that improve slime.
2015-02-28T13:21:34Z Shinmera: I started work on dissect last summer because I wanted an interactive web-page debugger for Radiance.
2015-02-28T13:22:27Z Shinmera: If only I didn't tweet so much I could dig up the screenshots I made back then.
2015-02-28T13:24:02Z drmeister: Once I figure out how to actually _use_ the DWARF debugging info that I generate I'd love to hook it in.
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2015-02-28T13:26:08Z monod: hello g'd lispers
2015-02-28T13:26:44Z beach: hello monod.
2015-02-28T13:29:12Z drmeister: Argh!  This is the problem with starting work on something major late in the night - I left the argument processing code broken in all sorts of ways.   Commenting everything out and reloading everything.
2015-02-28T13:29:47Z beach: drmeister: It is better you work on that then.  We can do the THE-AST later.
2015-02-28T13:30:39Z drmeister is caught with his programmer pants down
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2015-02-28T13:32:49Z drmeister: Yeah - I'll get it back together again and try it out asap
2015-02-28T13:34:29Z beach: I need a break.  I'll be back later.
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2015-02-28T13:42:18Z Shinmera: I made a new screenshot instead. https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TkRBNA==
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2015-02-28T14:43:59Z monod: hey lispers! Do you remember me talking about building an OS completely in Lisp?
2015-02-28T14:44:20Z monod: (cc: Odin-, beach, Shinmera, hitecnologys_)
2015-02-28T14:45:26Z monod: I have found a couple lines explaining something that I didn't know how to explain myself :) Something that is backed by some real world experience! Even though it only is a one-person-experience
2015-02-28T14:45:36Z monod: (but I could search for more feedback from more people)
2015-02-28T14:45:44Z monod: message incoming...
2015-02-28T14:46:31Z monod: Excerpt from "Lisp Hackers" @ ( https://leanpub.com/lisphackers/read ) : [...] Inferior-shell abstracts over the many Lisp and shell implementations so you can invoke Unix shell utilities from any Lisp implementation, remotely if needs be (through ssh), and with much nicer string interpolation than any shell can ever provide; it is a classic Lisp library notably available through Quicklisp. With the two of them, I have e
2015-02-28T14:46:31Z monod: nough Unix integration that I don’t need to write shell scripts anymore. Instead, I interactively develop Lisp code at the SLIME REPL, and have a shell-runnable program in the end. That tremendously improved my quality of life in many situations involving system administration and server maintenance. [...]
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2015-02-28T15:06:50Z drmeister: beach: The update you made fixed the problem with THE
2015-02-28T15:07:01Z drmeister: Now I can use DOTIMES
2015-02-28T15:07:18Z Xach: hooray
2015-02-28T15:07:24Z beach: drmeister: Great!
2015-02-28T15:09:11Z drmeister: The inlining stuff that you are writing is going to be very important to improving performance (as you are aware and I am becoming aware).  Most of the time spent in a DOTIMES loop is doing realloc in the GNU gmp functions. This is due to my compiler calling out to functions that have to handle the most general cases every time.
2015-02-28T15:09:40Z beach: Right.
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2015-02-28T15:10:07Z beach: Is this for the addition?
2015-02-28T15:10:11Z beach: And comparison?
2015-02-28T15:10:46Z drmeister: This time Cleavir-clasp code takes about 2/3 the time of Clasp code.
2015-02-28T15:10:55Z drmeister: so a 33% speedup.
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2015-02-28T15:11:34Z beach: drmeister: This time?  For the same code?
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2015-02-28T15:12:01Z drmeister: And this is because the DOTIMES loop generates faster code when compiled with the Clasp compiler, not that the Cleavir-clasp code is slower.
2015-02-28T15:12:18Z drmeister: I don't understand why DOTIMES can generate a more efficient loop than the one I hand-coded.
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2015-02-28T15:12:49Z beach: I guess you need to look at the expansion?
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2015-02-28T15:14:34Z quazimodo: hi
2015-02-28T15:14:35Z quazimodo: ok
2015-02-28T15:14:59Z beach: Hello quazimodo.
2015-02-28T15:16:14Z quazimodo: watcha doing
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2015-02-28T15:19:30Z drmeister: Here's the test:
2015-02-28T15:19:33Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/vVlC9Zmd
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2015-02-28T15:20:12Z drmeister: Results:
2015-02-28T15:20:15Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/876cKaz3
2015-02-28T15:22:11Z drmeister: Hmm, this is where I need MACROEXPAND-DAMMIT
2015-02-28T15:22:27Z Shinmera: What about the standard deviation
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2015-02-28T15:22:34Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/eKtuaAJJ
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2015-02-28T15:23:52Z Shinmera wishes he had tested trivial-benchmark on clasp
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2015-02-28T15:25:40Z Shinmera: drmeister: I don't know if it'll work, but you could try using trivial-benchmark to get more statistics per measurement.
2015-02-28T15:26:51Z drmeister: Well - color me confused - I don't see the difference.
2015-02-28T15:26:52Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/7b69b98253844e048748
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2015-02-28T15:27:19Z drmeister: There is my hand written loop and a series of macro expansions that expand DOTIMES and I don't see the difference.
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2015-02-28T15:27:38Z Shinmera: The LET?
2015-02-28T15:28:03Z Shinmera: No, that's the same too
2015-02-28T15:29:17Z drmeister: For some reason my compiler generates code for the hand written loop that runs approx. 10x slower than for the DOTIMES loop even though they look the same to my eyes.
2015-02-28T15:29:33Z Shinmera: Are you sure you're measuring right?
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2015-02-28T15:29:45Z drmeister: It's hard to misuse TIME
2015-02-28T15:29:48Z Shinmera: There might be warm-up times and so on.
2015-02-28T15:30:31Z drmeister: Maybe - but it's all compiled code once I start it up.
2015-02-28T15:31:14Z drmeister: It will require further analysis.  Not that I'm that interested in speeding up my compiler.  It's all hind-brain (LLVM) with very little cerebellum.
2015-02-28T15:31:38Z drmeister: Cleavir is all cerebellum.
2015-02-28T15:32:01Z drmeister: Wait no.
2015-02-28T15:32:02Z hitecnologys_ is now known as hitecnologys
2015-02-28T15:32:20Z hitecnologys: monod: sorry, was away. Yes, I do remember.
2015-02-28T15:32:29Z monod: yay! ^_^
2015-02-28T15:32:35Z drmeister: Damnit - why didn't I work harder at anatomy in college?
2015-02-28T15:32:47Z monod: I'm still reading that book, hitecnologys, and I just found that some minutes ago
2015-02-28T15:32:56Z monod: That excerpt explains what I was thinking about
2015-02-28T15:33:12Z monod: a system were the command line is lisp-aware, but talking about the system in general
2015-02-28T15:33:25Z drmeister: Cerebral cortex!   Clasp's compiler is all hind-brain and no cerebral cortex!  Cleavir is the white-matter.  Sheesh.
2015-02-28T15:33:30Z monod: I might be a bit immature on Lisp, though
2015-02-28T15:33:39Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-02-28T15:33:46Z monod: I'm still in the "researching" process btw.
2015-02-28T15:34:04Z monod: learning and exploring new paths
2015-02-28T15:35:41Z monod: I've also found some of what I would call Lisp downsides
2015-02-28T15:36:14Z monod: (besides the Lisp upsides)
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2015-02-28T15:38:29Z Shinmera: The thing about CL downsides is that either you're wrong or we've heard it a billion times over already.
2015-02-28T15:38:51Z Shinmera: That in itself is a curse or a blessing in itself depending on how you look at it.
2015-02-28T15:39:00Z Shinmera: *-in itself
2015-02-28T15:40:34Z drmeister: beach: Thanks for the fix - I'll get argument handling worked out and then try compiling the Clasp Common Lisp source and ASDF.  That kind of complex code test is more interesting than a little loop.
2015-02-28T15:41:37Z beach: Sorry, delivery (groceries).  I am back now.
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2015-02-28T15:42:16Z drmeister: beach: No problem.
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2015-02-28T15:43:38Z beach: drmeister: So no explanation for the difference?
2015-02-28T15:44:05Z drmeister: I'm looking at the compiled code now.
2015-02-28T15:44:15Z drmeister: Generated code. Sheesh.
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2015-02-28T15:44:52Z beach: monod: What are some of the downsides?
2015-02-28T15:45:35Z monod: beach, I'm reading the "Lisp hackeres" book. I've read of several experiences went bad while being programmed in Lisp
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2015-02-28T15:45:49Z monod: but not like something that could have been programmed in a different language and it all would be solved, beach
2015-02-28T15:46:17Z drmeister: Uh, that's not going to be easy - very complicated.
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2015-02-28T15:46:45Z monod: those kind of stories which I read for now left me with a sense of "the initial plan was too consufing that the project eventually went bad"
2015-02-28T15:46:47Z beach: drmeister: You could do what I did.
2015-02-28T15:46:48Z monod: something like that
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2015-02-28T15:46:57Z drmeister: It could be all sorts of things - like where debugging calls get inserted.   I should try just turning off all debugging.
2015-02-28T15:47:02Z drmeister: beach: What did you do?
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2015-02-28T15:48:18Z beach: drmeister: I executed Clasp under the control of GDB.  Then I evaluated the loop.  While waiting, I hit C-c so I got a GDB interaction loop.  Then I did display/i $pc and then si repeatedly, which can be repeated by hitting RET.
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2015-02-28T15:48:52Z beach: drmeister: That gave me the sequence of instructions that Clasp were executing, and I could understand how it spent its time.
2015-02-28T15:49:13Z beach: Just basic GDB usage.
2015-02-28T15:49:44Z beach: monod: So it is a Lisp downside that some people don't know how to make specs or program?
2015-02-28T15:50:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm not sure I understand how cl-who works. I can put forms that return a value into it, but I can't put those forms in the body? https://www.refheap.com/a57492f217c27d7bf70c57a5f
2015-02-28T15:51:02Z monod: beach, in a sense which I'm going to explain very concisely: maybe, the freedom given by the Lisp language is too much for uneducated people. I don't know, I'm just roughly supposing it
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2015-02-28T15:51:39Z monod: beach, also: I had that first impression only because of what I'm reading from that book! And it's quite strange to see the same pattern repeated again and again
2015-02-28T15:51:46Z beach: monod: Uneducated people shouldn't use any language.
2015-02-28T15:51:53Z monod: beach, alright
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2015-02-28T15:52:16Z monod: (I mean: I agree)
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2015-02-28T15:53:03Z monod: (also: it seems to me that the other communities, like Java, or C, or something else, have stronger constraints that help them do less errors)
2015-02-28T15:53:19Z monod: (and this is a very shared opinion among lispers I think, beach)
2015-02-28T15:53:34Z monod: (I mean: I think I've heard this from some people already)
2015-02-28T15:53:34Z Shinmera: Does it really, or does it just help slow down people enough to force them to make less errors?
2015-02-28T15:53:35Z Petit_Dejeuner: When you say C I think of the American Fuzy Lop success story page.
2015-02-28T15:53:39Z beach: monod: I suggest you read this: http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html  It explains why there are many people out there who are afraid of Lisp.  One way in which the fear can manifest itself is that they have to write bad things about it.
2015-02-28T15:54:24Z drmeister: beach: Hmmm, I think this has something to do with realloc and unix memory management.
2015-02-28T15:54:25Z beach: monod: "fewer" errors.  "less" water, air, etc.
2015-02-28T15:54:58Z monod: 1) Shinmera, yes it does! But the point is not java or C "slowing down people", but maybe this: other languages do not tend to encourage the way lispers think and program. That's what I'd say that does not help
2015-02-28T15:55:13Z Shinmera: I have yet to see conclusive proof that it does.
2015-02-28T15:55:22Z drmeister: I just compiled the DOTIMES version and my hand written version and then generate code that runs in exactly the same amount of time.
2015-02-28T15:55:29Z beach: monod: It is trivial to create a language where people can make very few errors. Just make sure they can't do very much at all.
2015-02-28T15:55:43Z beach: monod: Did you consider this other variable as well?
2015-02-28T15:56:10Z Shinmera: It's also a question of what constitues an "error"? Runtime crash? OS crash? Doesn't do what you want or expected?
2015-02-28T15:56:19Z beach: drmeister: So something was wrong with the first benchmark?
2015-02-28T15:56:23Z drmeister: Now the Cleavir-Clasp generated code is about 25% faster than the Clasp generated code. But they are now taking 14 seconds for what before took 3 seconds or 30 depending on what I ran.
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2015-02-28T15:56:43Z beach: drmeister: That is totally weird for the same code.
2015-02-28T15:56:54Z drmeister: 60% of the time is being spent in the GNU GMP function calling realloc - not so weird.
2015-02-28T15:57:14Z monod: Hmm
2015-02-28T15:57:19Z beach: drmeister: It is weird that the same code compiled on the same system takes 4 seconds one day and 14 the other.
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2015-02-28T15:57:47Z drmeister: Not even one day.  When I ran it about 30 minutes ago it took about 4 seconds and now its taking 14 seconds.
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2015-02-28T15:58:08Z drmeister: Timing things is hard and has to be done carefully.
2015-02-28T15:58:09Z beach: drmeister: Very very strange.
2015-02-28T15:58:20Z Shinmera: Use lots of samples!
2015-02-28T15:58:21Z drmeister: Look, I'll shut down the image and start it again.
2015-02-28T15:58:25Z Shinmera: Make a standard deviation!
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2015-02-28T15:58:33Z brian_o: if i need to know the length of a list, i can call (length list) and it will get the right answer, but it must traverse the list to get the right answer. fine. but if i have a simple-vector, i should be able to directly get it's length, right? how do i do that correctly? (without the overhead of traversal)
2015-02-28T15:58:54Z Shinmera: brian_o: LENGTH
2015-02-28T15:58:54Z beach: brian_o: (length vector)
2015-02-28T15:59:05Z brian_o: no overhead, right?
2015-02-28T15:59:36Z beach: brian_o: Unless your Common Lisp implementation represents vectors as linked strictures, there is no traversal.
2015-02-28T15:59:44Z Shinmera: An implementation may choose to traverse a vector (as long as it has no fill pointer)
2015-02-28T15:59:56Z drmeister: Yup, now it takes 4 seconds
2015-02-28T16:00:10Z monod: 1) Shinmera, a conclusive proof of that, might be the following: people who can slow down their work process, can think twice at what they're doing, and learn a better way of doing what they are doing WHILE they are doing so. In a word, what they are doing is they are Learning
2015-02-28T16:00:11Z beach: drmeister: And the Clasp compiler?
2015-02-28T16:00:12Z brian_o: cool, thanks
2015-02-28T16:00:48Z Shinmera: monod: Are they really thinking and learning more or just wasting more time thinking about irrelevant and confusing details?
2015-02-28T16:01:01Z Shinmera: not all necessary thinking time actually leads to productive output.
2015-02-28T16:01:04Z drmeister: That is the Clasp compiler - let me put this together more carefully.
2015-02-28T16:01:27Z monod: 2) I thought about that, but when we talk about C, for example, I don't think C does not allow you to do anything.. Or Java: it's true that it has features removed from C, but couldn't you program your program's behavior thinking like lisper?
2015-02-28T16:01:29Z monod: beach ^
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2015-02-28T16:01:54Z Shinmera: They're turing complete so you can do whatever.
2015-02-28T16:02:54Z monod: Shinmera, that's true, not all the thinking time is well spent. It depends on how much have you worked and are tired, maybe. For the other one, I do not agree, because you're already saying that someone allegedly has a non-working copy of a program
2015-02-28T16:03:02Z monod: and it could be a PITA in any language
2015-02-28T16:03:06Z monod: programming* language
2015-02-28T16:03:08Z Shinmera: What?
2015-02-28T16:03:09Z beach: monod: I am sorry, but I don't think you have the faintest clue about how those things work.  Neither do I but I don't pretend I do.
2015-02-28T16:03:45Z monod: beach, how can you say that if you don't know how they work?? :D
2015-02-28T16:04:02Z Shinmera: You can see that a picture is badly drawn without being an artist.
2015-02-28T16:04:05Z monod: beach, you shouldn't be able to recognize whether people know the subject! :D
2015-02-28T16:04:13Z Shinmera: Yes you can be able to.
2015-02-28T16:04:18Z beach: monod: I recognize scientific discourse when I see it.  Yours is not it.
2015-02-28T16:04:42Z monod: I think I've lost some passages
2015-02-28T16:04:43Z drmeister: Yeah, this has to be done very carefully to be meaningful.   The cleavir/clasp compiled code is consistently at least 33% faster.
2015-02-28T16:04:46Z beach: monod: Now, can we please stick to the subject.
2015-02-28T16:05:00Z monod: beach, yes, of course, but what have I said that is wrong?
2015-02-28T16:05:36Z beach: monod: It would take a lot of off-topic text on my part to tell you.  So I won't.
2015-02-28T16:05:48Z monod: can you PM it?
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2015-02-28T16:05:52Z brian_o: just for funsies, i'd like to know how to look up that behavior (get length of simple vector without traversal) myself. i checked the hyperspec, and indeed it seems not to specify the implementation details. so then i opened the SBCL user manual... any hints where i should start looking?
2015-02-28T16:05:56Z beach: monod: Not interested.
2015-02-28T16:06:05Z monod: what a lisper! :D
2015-02-28T16:06:16Z monod: just joking btw
2015-02-28T16:06:19Z beach: drmeister: Yes, better do this right.
2015-02-28T16:06:22Z Shinmera: brian_o: M-. on length.
2015-02-28T16:06:28Z monod: but what I'm reading in the Lisp Hacker book is exactly this
2015-02-28T16:07:24Z beach: brian_o: The Common Lisp HyperSpec doesn't mandate implementation details.  But a long history of lore tells us that in a vector, the length is stored in a field somewhere, so it takes constant time to access.
2015-02-28T16:07:24Z monod: I mean, you are not interested.. but couldn't you just give me a few pointers to what it's wrong with what I've said and where I can read something proving it?
2015-02-28T16:08:39Z beach: monod: I recommend you read the writings of Steven Pinker on how to conduct experiments related to learning and other behavior.
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2015-02-28T16:09:17Z monod: beach, is it the link you gave me minutes ago?
2015-02-28T16:09:44Z monod: (it seems like it is not that one)
2015-02-28T16:09:55Z brian_o: shinmera, beach: thanks
2015-02-28T16:09:59Z beach: monod: No, that is my own essay.  Pinker is a neuro psychologist (among other things).
2015-02-28T16:10:09Z monod: beach, okay
2015-02-28T16:10:15Z monod: I'm going to search it by myself then
2015-02-28T16:10:18Z monod: Thank you! :)
2015-02-28T16:10:33Z monod: but when I will have read it, I'll maybe come back arguing here XP
2015-02-28T16:10:46Z beach: Don't please.
2015-02-28T16:10:59Z monod: o_o
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2015-02-28T16:15:14Z beach: drmeister: If both versions spend more than half of the time in GMP, then it is not going to be possible for one to be 10 times faster than the other. :)
2015-02-28T16:15:40Z beach: THAT I can give a scientific proof for. :)
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2015-02-28T16:17:22Z monod: (beach: can I share your link to somebody else?)
2015-02-28T16:17:35Z monod: (psychology.html)
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2015-02-28T16:17:44Z beach: Yes, of course.
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2015-02-28T16:18:11Z beach: Here is another one: http://metamodular.com/Essays/wrong.html
2015-02-28T16:19:11Z drmeister: beach: Oh crap - I just realized something.   Any library that I depend on that uses "malloc/realloc" is a ticking time-bomb.
2015-02-28T16:19:59Z beach: drmeister: Is this related to the benchmarks or a separate issue?
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2015-02-28T16:20:38Z drmeister: Here I have an innocent little loop over integers and it's using BIGNUM's like crazy because the compiler is brain-dead and calling out to the most general arithmetic functions.  It's reallocing like crazy, probably fragmenting memory and taking more and more time as it runs longer.
2015-02-28T16:21:21Z beach: I see.
2015-02-28T16:21:28Z drmeister: Yes, I think it's skewing the benchmarks.  The time required for the compiled code is different depending if I run it in a fresh Clasp environment vs one that's been running for a few hours.
2015-02-28T16:21:50Z beach: Do you have an immediate representation for fixnums yet?
2015-02-28T16:22:20Z drmeister: Available but not used yet - I need to do a fair amount of refactoring of the C++ code to use them universally.
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2015-02-28T16:22:32Z drmeister: It's moving up in importance.
2015-02-28T16:22:40Z beach: drmeister: How are they represented?
2015-02-28T16:22:40Z drmeister: In my long list of things to do.
2015-02-28T16:22:55Z drmeister: Currently they are boxed on the heap - stupid yeah.
2015-02-28T16:23:03Z beach: Indeed.
2015-02-28T16:23:04Z drmeister: I was young and foolish.
2015-02-28T16:23:19Z drmeister: Now I'm just old and foolish - but slightly less foolish.
2015-02-28T16:23:35Z beach: Are your Lisp objects tagged?
2015-02-28T16:24:07Z beach: Or do they all end with 000?
2015-02-28T16:24:11Z drmeister: Absolutely.  The tagged pointers support tagged FIXNUMs, CHARACTERs and if I want SHORT-FLOAT.
2015-02-28T16:24:15Z drmeister: on 64-bit.
2015-02-28T16:24:30Z beach: What are the tags?
2015-02-28T16:25:14Z drmeister: FIXNUM = 0x...11    C++ compatibility requires pointers end in 0x...00
2015-02-28T16:25:25Z drmeister: I think.
2015-02-28T16:25:58Z beach: drmeister: true, but typically you use a 1 at the end for pointers, and remove it before dereferencing.
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2015-02-28T16:26:39Z beach: *((pointer) (((unsigned long long int) lispobj) + 1))
2015-02-28T16:26:42Z drmeister: I may be able to do that in C++ but it seemed ... unnatural.
2015-02-28T16:26:44Z beach: er *((pointer) (((unsigned long long int) lispobj) - 1))
2015-02-28T16:26:58Z beach: drmeister: It is so that you can use 000 for fixnums.
2015-02-28T16:27:13Z drmeister: Sure, in CL I can do whatever I want - but C++ has its own requirements.
2015-02-28T16:27:21Z beach: And the reason for that is so that you can use machine operations for addition and subtraction.
2015-02-28T16:27:27Z drmeister: Right - I know.
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2015-02-28T16:27:45Z beach: OK, I get it.
2015-02-28T16:27:49Z beach: No 000 for fixnums.
2015-02-28T16:27:50Z drmeister: I'm going to rely on Cleavir's unbox -> do lots of math -> box
2015-02-28T16:28:06Z drmeister: Right FIXNUM 0 is 0x0000011
2015-02-28T16:28:17Z drmeister: FIXNUM 1 is 0x00000111
2015-02-28T16:28:20Z drmeister: And so on.
2015-02-28T16:28:21Z beach: In your loop, "lots" = one thing.
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2015-02-28T16:28:50Z beach: Also, what if one of your existing arithmetic functions receives a fixnum now?
2015-02-28T16:28:54Z beach: Will it work?
2015-02-28T16:29:12Z drmeister: That's the cost of doing business I'm afraid.  Like I said, maybe I can change that by messing with the C++ dereferencing operator and have it strip the tag.   If it's possible then it should be easy.
2015-02-28T16:29:34Z beach: Don't bother for now.
2015-02-28T16:29:49Z beach: drmeister: When you said that fixnums are boxed on the heap, what did you mean?
2015-02-28T16:29:51Z drmeister: No.  They don't expect them at the moment - that's the hard work I have to do.
2015-02-28T16:30:03Z beach: I mean that seems contrary to the tag and the immediate representation.
2015-02-28T16:30:14Z beach: OK.
2015-02-28T16:30:45Z monod: beach, I really liked your article and I'm really going through a time in my life in which I've constantly been realizing that I like perfection-oriented paths the most, compared to the performance-oriented ones which do not offer as much great advantages in the LONG term as how many in the SHORT term
2015-02-28T16:30:47Z drmeister: FIXNUMs are classes that are allocated on the heap - they have a header and they store a C++ "int".  Just like any other object.
2015-02-28T16:30:56Z monod: btw, I think I've also found 2 grammatical errors :)
2015-02-28T16:31:16Z beach: monod: Send them to me by email please.
2015-02-28T16:31:24Z monod: ok beach
2015-02-28T16:31:40Z beach: drmeister: So you have two kinds of fixnums?
2015-02-28T16:31:43Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-02-28T16:31:52Z beach: Wow.
2015-02-28T16:32:01Z beach: Hard work to be done indeed.
2015-02-28T16:32:15Z drmeister: My plan is to remove the heap-bound FIXNUMs and replace them with immediate ones.  That requires all sorts of checks to be inserted in the code.
2015-02-28T16:32:47Z drmeister: Well, when I delete the current FIXNUM class - the C++ compiler will generate lots of helpful error messages.
2015-02-28T16:32:55Z drmeister: But I have a better idea - a super power if you will.
2015-02-28T16:33:12Z beach: Use your refactoring tool?
2015-02-28T16:33:19Z drmeister: I have the automated C++ refactoring tools that are better than anything on the planet.
2015-02-28T16:33:24Z monod: and also: remember that, when we argue with each other, that I'm one guy who's wondering "why the hell nobody is going to write a common Lisp (prototype of a) operating system?? Maybe I could be the one to start that out..." (and I know about Movitz, and I've read just a couple of lines about lisp machines, even though not as deep as what I read about Movitz)
2015-02-28T16:33:34Z monod: beach ^
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2015-02-28T16:34:10Z beach: monod: More reading for you: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
2015-02-28T16:34:11Z brian_o: shinmera, thanks. i looked it up in the source (and got a snack)
2015-02-28T16:34:21Z monod: beach :)))))
2015-02-28T16:34:27Z monod: thanks! gonna read it!
2015-02-28T16:35:55Z beach: drmeister: As the generated code gets less dominated by GMP, the difference in performance due to other factors will be more significant.
2015-02-28T16:36:12Z drmeister: beach: Absolutely
2015-02-28T16:36:17Z beach now regrets stating the obvious to a scientifically-trained person.
2015-02-28T16:36:52Z drmeister: Don't sweat it.  Stating the obvious is comforting now and then.
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2015-02-28T16:37:50Z Shinmera: brian_o: Never be afraid of using M-. It's the quickest and easiest way to get a feeling for how things work.
2015-02-28T16:38:38Z brian_o: righto. just started playing with that a few days ago. had to download the source and put it alongside my install, but i'm getting a feel for it
2015-02-28T16:39:49Z beach: drmeister: Do you need me for anything?  If not, I will go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
2015-02-28T16:40:02Z drmeister: beach: As you said "don't expect huge speed-ups right away" - and the current Clasp compiler does not have the infrastructure to support the kind of optimizations that Cleavir can incorporate.
2015-02-28T16:40:15Z brucem: beach: in the lispos one ... "exiting systems"
2015-02-28T16:40:17Z drmeister: beach: Nope - thank you for fixing the THE.
2015-02-28T16:40:28Z beach: brucem: thanks.
2015-02-28T16:40:32Z beach: drmeister: Sure.
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2015-02-28T16:44:20Z monod: I'm afk for a while!
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2015-02-28T17:02:02Z flash-: Shinmera: are you there?
2015-02-28T17:02:31Z Shinmera: Maybe.
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2015-02-28T17:03:49Z flash-: I was trying to write a CL GOG downloader. It requires OAuth.
2015-02-28T17:04:08Z Shinmera: Which version?
2015-02-28T17:05:06Z flash-: I *think* version 1, but that is mainly because the working c++ downloader uses a oauth C library that has a timestamp from before version 2 was released.
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2015-02-28T17:06:01Z Shinmera: Alright, so what's your issue then?
2015-02-28T17:06:28Z flash-: There is no official documentation on the api. The guy who made the c++ downloader wrote a documentation here: https://sites.google.com/site/gogdownloader/GOG API Documentation.pdf
2015-02-28T17:07:19Z Shinmera: Yeees?
2015-02-28T17:07:26Z flash-: The workflow prescribed by South does not seem to fit with the way this api works.
2015-02-28T17:07:41Z Shinmera: The login process looks like standard oAuth flow
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2015-02-28T17:08:22Z Shinmera: With the exception of email and password GET for the token step
2015-02-28T17:08:30Z Shinmera: Hrm. Strange, that.
2015-02-28T17:09:19Z Shinmera: You'll need a manual flow alright.
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2015-02-28T17:09:34Z flash-: Perhaps my problem is that I was trying too closely to transcribe the c++ code - which is an effect of me not being familiar with oAuth.
2015-02-28T17:09:46Z Shinmera: oAuth is confusing as hell
2015-02-28T17:10:03Z flash-: Yes, I noticed that.
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2015-02-28T17:12:53Z Shinmera: I think you might be able to make it work if you use https://api.gog.com/en/oauth/initialize as :oauth/request-token, https://api.gog.com/en/oauth/login/?user=example@example.com&password=mypassword as :oauth/authorize and https://api.gog.com/en/oauth/token/ as :oauth/access-token
2015-02-28T17:13:20Z flash-: Thanks, will try.
2015-02-28T17:13:23Z Shinmera: But... well, since it's not documented you might run into all sorts of happy fun times "failed requests" that'll leave you on your own to guess what the problem is.
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2015-02-28T17:14:04Z flash-: TBH, I did not try south, because I could not see how to fit those steps with it. I tried cl-oauth, but that is not very well documented. My method consisted of matching function parameters of the working c++ code with cl-oauth functions...
2015-02-28T17:14:05Z Shinmera: The authorize step is the most problematic, as usually you don't pass credentials via the URL.
2015-02-28T17:14:38Z Shinmera: If you look at the South source you'll find more fine-grained functions to perform the individual steps.
2015-02-28T17:15:00Z Shinmera: The How To is for conforming APIs that have their endpoints documented.
2015-02-28T17:15:06Z Shinmera: (e.g. Tumblr, Twitter)
2015-02-28T17:15:11Z flash-: My problem is, I start some projects in order to learn lisp, I end up doing something completely different, but not learning lisp.
2015-02-28T17:15:29Z Shinmera: Read the South code, then you'll learn some lisp along the way.
2015-02-28T17:16:56Z flash-: I already did, it's pretty straightforward lisp. I'll learn more about oauth than about lisp, I think.
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2015-02-28T17:18:11Z Shinmera: If you want some not-so-straightforward lisp, I can offer the Qtools sources.
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2015-02-28T17:18:32Z flash-: The first project I ended up writing a clbind binding for clasp (and an automatic generator in elisp), and now I'm haggling around with oAuth, instead of getting to something more advanced.
2015-02-28T17:19:11Z flash-: Shinmera: Actually, that was the plan. I thought I could do this backend easily, and then build a frontend using Qtools.
2015-02-28T17:19:21Z Shinmera: My first project was a web framework. I'm still not done.
2015-02-28T17:19:37Z Shinmera: flash-: I could help you get South working with GOG when I have more time. Which is not right now.
2015-02-28T17:19:58Z flash-: I'm pretty familiar with Qt on the C++ side.
2015-02-28T17:20:19Z Shinmera: Funnily enough I am not. At all.
2015-02-28T17:20:35Z flash-: Shinmera: OK, thanks. I'll look into it, and talk to you some other time, if I don't get it.
2015-02-28T17:20:47Z Shinmera: Best of luck to you!
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2015-02-28T17:34:00Z nyef: Hello all.
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2015-02-28T18:16:28Z brian_o: i'm using sbcl. how can i check the range of fixnums?
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2015-02-28T18:16:50Z Bike: most-positive-fixnum, etc
2015-02-28T18:17:23Z brian_o: ah. thanks!
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2015-02-28T18:54:02Z beach: hello nyef
2015-02-28T18:54:17Z beach: nyef: The 10x seems to have been wrong.
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2015-02-28T19:15:52Z brian_o: i'm learning about declarations and optimization (i know, premature optimization, etc). if i know have a 2-element simple-vector holding fixnums, how do i write the declaration statement?
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2015-02-28T19:18:24Z adeht: a simple vector can hold elements of any type.. (simple-vector 2)
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2015-02-28T19:18:56Z adeht: also, avoid dealing with fixnums
2015-02-28T19:19:23Z brian_o: why?
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2015-02-28T19:20:16Z adeht: instead deal with (signed-byte 32) or whatever.. something you know the lower/upper bounds of
2015-02-28T19:20:23Z thail`: doesn't a vector only store pointers?
2015-02-28T19:20:45Z thail`: unless it can fit a data type in the same space as a pointer
2015-02-28T19:20:55Z Shinmera: brian_o: The compiler can't optimise adding two fixnums well because it might end up being a bignum.
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2015-02-28T19:21:09Z Shinmera: Or any other arithmetic operation that'll potentially exceed the range
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2015-02-28T19:25:59Z Shinmera: thail`: A vector is just a one-dimensional array
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2015-02-28T19:26:48Z Shinmera: thail`: The CLHS doesn't deal with pointers. That's up to the implementation. So, potentially, an implementation could choose to not use pointers.
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2015-02-28T20:10:44Z inconceivable: I'm not certain how to contact the learn lisp the hard way people. I think I may have found a bug in the site.
2015-02-28T20:10:55Z inconceivable: Does anybody know how to contact them?
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2015-02-28T20:17:05Z eudoxia: https://github.com/LispTO
2015-02-28T20:17:30Z inconceivable: eudoxia: Thank you.
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2015-02-28T20:17:52Z eudoxia: also https://twitter.com/thephoeron
2015-02-28T20:18:14Z inconceivable: Excellent, thank you.
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2015-02-28T20:19:20Z isis__ is now known as therik
2015-02-28T20:19:31Z therik: Hey
2015-02-28T20:19:41Z inconceivable: hi
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2015-02-28T20:20:46Z therik: when I add :metaclass in class, I can't C-c C-c it, it throws an error, I have to do (setf (find-class 'foo) nil) every time. Is there something faster? Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
2015-02-28T20:21:09Z inconceivable: I would help but I literally just found out about lisp today haha
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2015-02-28T20:21:28Z therik: hey, good to hear!
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2015-02-28T20:22:37Z inconceivable: Yeah, definitely. I'm looking at a lot of the major languages. I'm 76 credits into a computer science BA.
2015-02-28T20:22:51Z inconceivable: So I guess I'm trying to see what's out there.
2015-02-28T20:23:34Z therik: are you coding lisp?
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2015-02-28T20:24:23Z inconceivable: All I've done so far in lisp is try out the interpreter on the learnlispthehardway website, but it's a bit incomplete.
2015-02-28T20:24:42Z inconceivable: I'm working through the Codecademy Ruby course at the moment.
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2015-02-28T20:25:24Z therik: yup, it's done in javascript
2015-02-28T20:25:46Z inconceivable: Yeah it's pretty cool.
2015-02-28T20:26:02Z therik: codeacademy bootcamp?
2015-02-28T20:26:05Z inconceivable: Which that's like an interpreter of an interpreter
2015-02-28T20:26:17Z inconceivable: Nah, just the online one.
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2015-02-28T20:27:03Z therik: the JS interpreter ?
2015-02-28T20:27:14Z inconceivable: I guess maybe you could call it a bootcamp, but when you say bootcamp I think of one of those intensive couple month education things to get you coding. codecademy.com is kind of at your own pase.
2015-02-28T20:27:27Z therik: ah ok
2015-02-28T20:27:33Z inconceivable: Yeah, the JS interpreter is itself interpreted by the browser
2015-02-28T20:27:40Z therik: yup
2015-02-28T20:27:45Z inconceivable: At least that's what I'm guessing
2015-02-28T20:27:48Z inconceivable: So it was kinda meta
2015-02-28T20:27:51Z inconceivable: anyways
2015-02-28T20:28:00Z therik: you're guessing right
2015-02-28T20:28:05Z inconceivable: cool
2015-02-28T20:28:08Z therik: you like meta?
2015-02-28T20:28:28Z inconceivable: What do you mean?
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2015-02-28T20:28:53Z therik: if you get improportionally excited by meta thingies
2015-02-28T20:29:05Z inconceivable: lol idk I just thought it was amusing
2015-02-28T20:29:12Z therik: I think so too
2015-02-28T20:29:19Z therik: but it's just two levels deep
2015-02-28T20:29:23Z inconceivable: It is
2015-02-28T20:29:44Z inconceivable: Maybe we should write a lisp interpreter in the browser based js interpreter
2015-02-28T20:29:53Z inconceivable: then it would be three levels deep
2015-02-28T20:29:57Z therik: that might be easy
2015-02-28T20:30:04Z inconceivable: to you maybe lol
2015-02-28T20:30:11Z therik: you already have the low level stuff done
2015-02-28T20:30:22Z therik: just rebuild lisp different way in it
2015-02-28T20:30:47Z therik: actually, that's pretty much what lisp is about
2015-02-28T20:30:55Z inconceivable: Is there already a lisp interpreter written in lisp?
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2015-02-28T20:31:02Z therik: lisp is
2015-02-28T20:31:05Z therik: written in lisp
2015-02-28T20:31:09Z Shinmera: Most implementations are written in lisp.
2015-02-28T20:31:16Z Shinmera: Or at least large parts of them.
2015-02-28T20:31:18Z inconceivable: Well then in that case we could do as many levels deep as we wanted
2015-02-28T20:31:23Z DeadTrickster: hey, do we have something like destructuring-bind but for say vectors? something like (destructuring-bind1 ((x . 3) (y 4)) #(1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
2015-02-28T20:31:23Z DeadTrickster:                               (values x y)) => #(1 2 3) #(4 5 6 7)
2015-02-28T20:31:30Z therik: inconceivable, and we indeed do
2015-02-28T20:31:40Z inconceivable: we could just copy and paste the lisp interpreter code into the JS several times
2015-02-28T20:31:47Z therik: you can make macro for that
2015-02-28T20:32:09Z inconceivable: I wonder how many levels deep we could go before the browser crashes
2015-02-28T20:32:22Z inconceivable: or the computer itself
2015-02-28T20:32:39Z inconceivable: metaaaa!
2015-02-28T20:32:51Z therik: you don't need to copypaste, just (defmacro nested-lisp (iterations &body b) ???? ) (profit)
2015-02-28T20:33:04Z inconceivable: sure haha
2015-02-28T20:33:37Z therik: man, you're gonna love lisp
2015-02-28T20:33:39Z inconceivable: Okay, I gotta go, I need to eat lunch before I go to work. It was nice meeting you therik.
2015-02-28T20:34:10Z therik: see you
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2015-02-28T20:36:21Z DeadTrickster: found something call let-plus it ca destructure arrays, good
2015-02-28T20:40:06Z DeadTrickster: no, not good (
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2015-02-28T20:49:36Z Xach: optima destructures fancy stuff
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2015-02-28T22:09:48Z jasom: Yeah optima is great for fancy destructuring
2015-02-28T22:10:01Z jasom: It also does pattern matching
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2015-02-28T22:42:12Z sol__: i'm having trouble with timeouts on usocket... i'm creating a udp socket with :timeout 1 but it gets stuck on socket-receive
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2015-02-28T23:10:47Z justanotheruser: is there a dialect of lisp that only does bitwise operations?
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2015-02-28T23:17:38Z justanotheruser: also, is there an SHA256 implementation in lisp?
2015-02-28T23:18:37Z dkcl introduces justanotheruser to www.cliki.net
2015-02-28T23:19:47Z fe[nl]ix: minion: ironclad
2015-02-28T23:19:47Z minion: ironclad: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/ironclad
2015-02-28T23:20:46Z dkcl: "Ironclad is a Common Lisp Cryptography package; several block encryption algorithms and hash functions are included with the initial release. Its initial impetus was to unify several of the cryptographic packages for Common Lisp (such as the MD5 and SHA1 implementations floating around), but it aims at providing a cryptographic toolkit similar in scope to something like OpenSSL or Crypto++."
2015-02-28T23:21:06Z justanotheruser: dkcl: found the sha256 implementation, thanks. What can I query for a bitwise operation dialect.
2015-02-28T23:21:55Z dkcl: justanotheruser: cliki is a Common Lisp wiki, not a Lisp-in-general wiki -- I was replying to your last question
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2015-02-28T23:22:35Z justanotheruser: I see
2015-02-28T23:22:42Z justanotheruser: and not-common lisp is off topic?
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2015-02-28T23:23:37Z dkcl: That seems to be the implication
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2015-02-28T23:24:25Z Shinmera: For general lisps there's ##lisp
2015-02-28T23:24:51Z justanotheruser: thanks
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2015-02-28T23:45:50Z Xach: justanotheruser: What would it mean to support *only* bitwise operations?
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