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2015-02-23T00:00:21Z Odin-: Quadrescence, pjb: Case in point - Mezzano? What's that?
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2015-02-23T00:00:43Z Quadrescence: A recently announced Lisp OS
2015-02-23T00:00:51Z Quadrescence: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
2015-02-23T00:01:08Z Odin-: Thanks.
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2015-02-23T00:22:50Z zoidberg51: hi
2015-02-23T00:23:08Z zoidberg51: does anyone have expreience with movitz?
2015-02-23T00:23:14Z zoidberg51: i can't get the loop to work
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2015-02-23T00:56:06Z emaczen: So I am sending some expressions from emacs to SBCL and I have run into a symbol issue.
2015-02-23T00:56:19Z emaczen: (slime-eval '(ev::diff '(ev::+ x 2))) -- this is what I type into IELM
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2015-02-23T00:56:27Z emaczen: (common-lisp:+ 1 0) -- this is the result
2015-02-23T00:56:46Z emaczen: the name of the common-lisp package where diff is defined is ev
2015-02-23T00:57:11Z emaczen: I never redefine + so I am not sure why I have to write that either
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2015-02-23T01:03:00Z emaczen: symbol/package issue
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2015-02-23T01:28:56Z pjb: emaczen: I get: There is no package named "EV" . from (slime-eval '(ev::diff '(ev::+ x 2))).
2015-02-23T01:29:07Z pjb: ie., works as expected.
2015-02-23T01:29:33Z pjb: emaczen: perhaps you expected telepathic debugging?
2015-02-23T01:29:46Z pjb: emaczen: it's available, but only for a fee.
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2015-02-23T01:32:22Z pjb: emaczen: nontheless, this error should give you some hint.
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2015-02-23T01:48:57Z dmiles_afk: How far off is Lisp 500 from common Lisp?
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2015-02-23T01:50:07Z dmiles_afk: It looks like initially only need to implement 158 C functions
2015-02-23T01:50:23Z dmiles_afk: Before I get to load the Lisp file
2015-02-23T01:50:42Z dmiles_afk: But then what would I have?
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2015-02-23T01:59:02Z emaczen: pjb: package EV is something I made
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2015-02-23T02:07:27Z pjb: emaczen: I know.  What I don't know, is HOW you made it!  How do you want us to debug your EV package if you don't give us your definitions!
2015-02-23T02:09:09Z emaczen: pjb: I thought this would be a common enough issue that you all wouldn't need any code.
2015-02-23T02:10:06Z emaczen: Also, it would be pretty difficult and tedious to give you all my package structure defining some packages.
2015-02-23T02:10:16Z pjb: emaczen: also, I'm not really sure what you're complaining about.  1 = (+ 1 0) seems to be a perfect simplification for d(x+2)/dx.
2015-02-23T02:10:36Z Xach: emaczen: What is the issue?
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2015-02-23T02:13:06Z pjb: emaczen: it's always the same thing: what you did, what you expected, what you got. You just told us what you got.
2015-02-23T02:13:35Z Xach will not be around to discuss, sorry
2015-02-23T02:15:56Z dmiles_afk: Who will do my homeowrk for 1000$ ?  https://github.com/TeamSPoon/MUD_ScriptEngines/wiki
2015-02-23T02:16:04Z emaczen: why do I need package names for + and * -- I didn't do anything with + or - in EV
2015-02-23T02:17:03Z ebrasca: can i make question about cl-opengl here?
2015-02-23T02:18:57Z emaczen: I expected to just type: (slime-eval '(ev::diff '(+ x 2))) instead of (slime-eval '(ev::diff '(ev::+ x 2)))
2015-02-23T02:20:56Z pjb: (slime-eval '(ev::diff '(+ x 2))) --> (common-lisp:+ 1 0) ; works for me.
2015-02-23T02:21:21Z pjb: So you told us what you expected and what you got, but still not how.
2015-02-23T02:21:40Z pjb: ebrasca: you may. Or you may prefer #lispgames (they probably know more about opengl than here.
2015-02-23T02:21:42Z pjb: )
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2015-02-23T02:21:57Z pjb: dmiles_afk: what about just embedding ecl in swi-prolog?
2015-02-23T02:21:58Z emaczen: pjb: Ok, I'll make a paste -- sorry for making you pull it out of me
2015-02-23T02:22:29Z pjb: emaczen: I did: (defpackage "EV" (:use "CL")) (defun ev::diff (x) '(+ 1 0)) to make it work for me.
2015-02-23T02:22:37Z dmiles_afk: pjb: actually i did do that a few years ago :)  and left my zip drive at starbucks :(
2015-02-23T02:23:02Z pjb: dmiles_afk: that's where gitorious, gitlab and github come into the scene.
2015-02-23T02:23:51Z dmiles_afk: hehe , was in 2005 .. i knwo i pastebined most of the impl somewhere back then
2015-02-23T02:24:29Z dmiles_afk: it was one file that SWIA-prolgo .. loaded ECL and then had a roundtrip cl_object <-> pl_term
2015-02-23T02:25:03Z dmiles_afk: it was one C file for SWI-prolog  .. loaded ECL and then had a roundtrip cl_object <-> pl_term
2015-02-23T02:26:07Z dmiles_afk: but also actually i also hav e a .lisp to .pl convertor that a all prolog version would allow us to have
2015-02-23T02:26:24Z dmiles_afk: (by term_expansion/2)
2015-02-23T02:27:01Z dmiles_afk: but also actually i also hav e a /but actually I'd like to have
2015-02-23T02:28:23Z emaczen: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/+34KP.
2015-02-23T02:28:29Z emaczen: let me know if you have any questions
2015-02-23T02:28:30Z dmiles_afk: That's why I'm spinning more as homework .. Since a serious way to do it would be to do the ECL link
2015-02-23T02:29:47Z pjb: emaczen: your definition seems good, so (slime-eval '(ev::diff '(+ x 2))) should work for you too.
2015-02-23T02:31:26Z pjb: However, with your definition, I get an error about swank-io-package::+ with (slime-eval '(ev::diff '(+ x 2))).  So it seems that swank-io-package::+  is not cl:+ and that slime-eval reads the definition in that swank-io-package.
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2015-02-23T02:32:09Z emaczen: pjb: try putting ev:: in front of the +
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2015-02-23T02:32:39Z pjb:  (slime-eval '(cl:list '+ (cl:find-symbol "+" "EV")))  --> (+ common-lisp:+)
2015-02-23T02:32:53Z pjb: Definitely, this is the way slime-eval works.
2015-02-23T02:33:40Z emaczen: So you are saying that + is reffering to swank-io-package::+ ?
2015-02-23T02:33:44Z pjb: emaczen: that must depend on the current buffer. In normal buffers in lisp-mode, slime uses the package specified in the file.  But without such a package, perhaps it defaults to swank-io-package, which doesn't use CL.
2015-02-23T02:33:48Z pjb: Yes.
2015-02-23T02:34:07Z pjb: emaczen: notice that slime-eval has an optional parameter.
2015-02-23T02:34:17Z dmiles_afk: aha evita-common-lisp started with Lisp 500!
2015-02-23T02:36:43Z dmiles_afk: at least thats what i thought when i see it's docs dirrectory.. but now is moved into c++
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2015-02-23T02:37:34Z emaczen: pjb: I'm trying to figure out how to use it...
2015-02-23T02:38:25Z pjb: yes. the package arguments of slime-eval is not used to intern the expression in lisp, but as current *package* to evaluate it  (not even to print it back).
2015-02-23T02:39:38Z emaczen: So, I am guessing that the implementation would take the package parameter and then do (in-package PACKAGE) (eval S-EXP)
2015-02-23T02:43:20Z pjb: emaczen: it's in swank.lisp decode-message uses *swank-io-package*. You could bind it to CL-USER or some other package.
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2015-02-23T02:45:08Z pjb: (slime-eval '(cl:package-name (cl:setf swank::*swank-io-package* (cl:find-package :cl-user)))) (slime-eval '(ev::diff '(+ x 2))) --> (+ 1 0)
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2015-02-23T02:45:36Z emaczen: I'v tried (slime-eval '(diff '(+ x 2)) 'ev) and "ev"
2015-02-23T02:46:22Z pjb: no, this package is only used while evaling, eg. if you (slime-eval '(read-from-string "diff") "EV") --> diff
2015-02-23T02:48:29Z emaczen: When I try that it tells me that read-from-string is not in Swank io package
2015-02-23T02:48:38Z dmiles_afk: pjb: google search makes you the lisp500 liason :)
2015-02-23T02:48:52Z pjb: Yes, because you didn't evaluate (slime-eval '(cl:package-name (cl:setf swank::*swank-io-package* (cl:find-package :cl-user)))) that I gave you above, first.
2015-02-23T02:49:23Z dmiles_afk: pjb: well you talk about it much more than anyone at least
2015-02-23T02:49:36Z pjb: dmiles_afk: I fail to see how, I'm not even on the first hit page: https://www.google.fr/search?q=lisp500&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=KJXqVK-WNpDmau_fgdAJ
2015-02-23T02:51:22Z emaczen:  pjb: there seems to be no difference whether or not I include the optional package parameters
2015-02-23T02:51:24Z emaczen: parmater*
2015-02-23T02:51:35Z dmiles_afk: pjb: ah i been into the 3-10th page
2015-02-23T02:52:16Z pjb: emaczen: you may be right.
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2015-02-23T02:53:02Z emaczen: pjb: That's pretty cool that you can set the CL-package from emacs
2015-02-23T02:53:44Z emaczen: I remember reading that packages were also first class objects in the Common Lisp specification or on the web and I never saw any utility in that -- now I do
2015-02-23T02:54:11Z dmiles_afk: of https://www.google.fr/search?q=lisp500&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=KJXqVK-WNpDmau_fgdAJ#q=lisp500+cl++ansi&start=20
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2015-02-23T02:58:28Z dmiles_afk: Anyhow I'm mostly joking.  However must the rating I did to find out how far off Lisp 500 was from CL came from you
2015-02-23T02:58:34Z dmiles_afk: reading*
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2015-02-23T03:00:46Z dmiles_afk: I guess the time constraints I may be stuck using ECL and just redoing the lost files.. Since I have about a month's worth of work on other things.. Why am willing to do the bounty of neato Prolog version
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2015-02-23T03:23:08Z zoidberg51: hi
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2015-02-23T03:26:23Z zoidberg51: how do i create an integer?
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2015-02-23T03:28:46Z nyef: "God created the Integers."
2015-02-23T03:29:01Z drmeister grins
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2015-02-23T03:44:31Z drmeister: zoidberg51: You just type it.
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2015-02-23T04:15:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-02-23T04:17:07Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-02-23T04:19:29Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2015-02-23T04:23:06Z burtons: running Mezzano in VirtualBox is a million times better than kvm for me
2015-02-23T04:23:10Z burtons: like night and day
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2015-02-23T04:23:30Z burtons: maybe eventaully i'll get it to actually boot!
2015-02-23T04:23:45Z nyef: burtons: Really? I find kvm easier to work with than VirtualBox.
2015-02-23T04:24:01Z burtons: it's about 100x faster for VB on my machine
2015-02-23T04:24:04Z nyef: At least, qemu-kvm.
2015-02-23T04:24:11Z nyef: Ahh.
2015-02-23T04:24:20Z burtons: not sure why
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2015-02-23T04:24:29Z burtons: maybe i'm not using the kvm version
2015-02-23T04:24:32Z burtons: it's just painfully slow
2015-02-23T04:24:47Z nyef: They seem about the same on mine, but the qemu-kvm setup doesn't require as much (any!) faffing about with the disk images.
2015-02-23T04:25:53Z beach: drmeister: What do you mean by an "unwind-protect environment"?
2015-02-23T04:26:06Z nyef: At some point I should probably go to the trouble of doing a build of the full environment. Thus far all of my hacking has been sufficiently low-level that I haven't even had to have the file-server running.
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2015-02-23T04:27:29Z drmeister: beach:  https://gist.github.com/anonymous/f9662ce1eeb1925fdfec
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2015-02-23T04:28:23Z burtons: ah, i must have been using the qemu emulated version
2015-02-23T04:28:25Z beach: Got it.
2015-02-23T04:28:32Z burtons: just using kvm works way faster
2015-02-23T04:28:43Z burtons: duh
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2015-02-23T04:29:09Z burtons: way too many hours wasted over that
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2015-02-23T04:29:52Z drmeister: Here's a bit more:   https://gist.github.com/anonymous/6f8a936106bdaabb2698
2015-02-23T04:30:05Z beach: drmeister: And what is CONVERT-CLASS?
2015-02-23T04:30:34Z burtons: i did manage to speed up the mezanno compiler not a small bit though, while i was waiting
2015-02-23T04:30:39Z drmeister: Thanks - it's supposed to be CHANGE-CLASS
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2015-02-23T04:31:20Z beach: drmeister: Why do you check for up-ast being NIL?
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2015-02-23T04:31:53Z burtons: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/pull/9
2015-02-23T04:32:33Z beach: drmeister: I guess I don't know what unwind-protect-info does.
2015-02-23T04:33:27Z drmeister: beach: If we aren't in the protected-form of an unwind-protect then all calls are CALL-AST nodes.   If we are in a protected-form of unwind-protect then all calls are turned into INVOKE-AST nodes.
2015-02-23T04:34:27Z drmeister: INVOKE is like CALL but if an exception is thrown during the call then it checks what exception was thrown and dispatches on it.
2015-02-23T04:34:42Z beach: drmeister: What made you introduce another environment class, rather than (say) just bind a special variable?
2015-02-23T04:35:09Z drmeister: UNWIND-PROTECT-INFO returns the most recent UNWIND-PROTECT environment or nil.
2015-02-23T04:35:35Z drmeister: It seemed more natural to make it an environment.
2015-02-23T04:36:06Z beach: OK.
2015-02-23T04:36:14Z drmeister: I'm following a plan that I developed for my compiler.
2015-02-23T04:36:29Z drmeister: It worked fine.
2015-02-23T04:37:04Z drmeister: Did you see my email about wrapping MAKE-CALL-AST in a generic function that you pass the environment to?
2015-02-23T04:37:31Z drmeister: LLVM has two "CALL" instructions, CALL and INVOKE -
2015-02-23T04:38:28Z drmeister: I'm trying to get to the point where I can generate some ASTs to see if they make sense wrt what I'm thinking.
2015-02-23T04:38:30Z beach: drmeister: I can make convert-lambda-call a generic function.  No problem.
2015-02-23T04:39:20Z drmeister: I'll post them as soon as I get them generated and you can see what I'm up to.  I'd really appreciate your feedback.
2015-02-23T04:39:53Z beach: drmeister: I can't turn MAKE-CALL-AST into a generic function.
2015-02-23T04:40:10Z beach: drmeister: It would break just about every assumption about constructors.
2015-02-23T04:40:38Z beach: A constructor is just a thin wrapper around MAKE-INSTANCE.
2015-02-23T04:42:05Z drmeister: Right - but what about this use case where there are ultimately two CALL instructions, one that has a single successor and the other where it has two - how would you construct an AST node for them?   I should differentiate them in the AST shouldn't I?
2015-02-23T04:42:42Z beach: I suppose, yes.
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2015-02-23T04:44:26Z beach: And then there will be two different AST constructors MAKE-CALL-AST and MAKE-OTHER-CALL-AST.  Each one will be a thin wrapper around MAKE-INSTANCE 'CALL-AST and MAKE-INSTANCE 'OTHER-CALL-AST respectively.
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2015-02-23T04:45:07Z beach: I am saying that the constructor is not the right place to make a choice about what is being constructed.
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2015-02-23T04:46:44Z drmeister: Where is the best place?  CONVERT-FORM?
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2015-02-23T04:47:24Z beach: Probably, yes.  One of the CONVERT functions.
2015-02-23T04:49:08Z drmeister: That's where I'm currently doing it specialized on local-function-info and global-function-info  and I'm also doing it in cleavir-generate-ast:convert-lambda-call by redefining that function (that's why I asked about making it a generic function).
2015-02-23T04:49:44Z beach: Sure, I can make it a generic function.
2015-02-23T04:52:00Z drmeister: I thought there would be less duplication if you had an (defgeneric IMPLEMENTATION-SPECIFIC-BUILD-CALL-LIKE-AST (function-ast argument-asts environment implementation) ...)
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2015-02-23T04:52:44Z drmeister: Then you could use that in place of make-call-ast and I could specialize it for clasp where it would make the choice about what to construct.
2015-02-23T04:52:59Z drmeister: Or is that not a good idea?
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2015-02-23T04:54:35Z beach: drmeister: Then I would have to make DEFGENERIC IMPLEMENTATION-SPECIFIC-BUILD-IF-LIKE-AST, DEFGENERIC IMPLEMENTATION-SPECIFIC-SETQ-LIKE-AST, etc, etc.
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2015-02-23T04:56:27Z drmeister: But the only implementation dependent decision that I see is CALL-AST vs INVOKE-AST
2015-02-23T04:56:33Z beach: CONVERT-LAMBDA-CALL is now generic.
2015-02-23T04:56:51Z beach: drmeister: In your implementation, perhaps.  What about others?
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2015-02-23T04:58:30Z drmeister: They would just use the default method (defmethod IMPLEMENTATION-SPECIFIC-CALL-LIKE-AST (function-ast arguments-ast env (impl cleavir-implementation)) (make-call-ast function-ast arguments-ast))
2015-02-23T04:59:46Z drmeister: I don't want to twist your design in directions that you don't want to take it.   It's just that LLVM has this INVOKE instruction that replaces CALL for exception handling and I use it in my present compiler to implement UNWIND-PROTECT.
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2015-02-23T05:00:13Z beach: drmeister: No I mean, a different implementation introduces an ASSIGN-AST that is sort of like a SETQ-AST, but it is slightly different.  Then that implementation would want a IMPLEMENTATION-SPECIFIC-BUILD-SETQ-LIKE-AST.
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2015-02-23T05:01:26Z beach: drmeister: Then a third implementation introduces a SHOULD-IT-BE-THE-CASE-AST that is sort of like the IF-AST, and they would want IMPLEMENTATION-SPECIFIC-BUILD-IF-LIKE-AST.
2015-02-23T05:01:33Z drmeister: I don't see how it could.
2015-02-23T05:01:56Z beach: drmeister: Well, I don't see how an implementation could possibly want an INVOKE-AST.
2015-02-23T05:02:04Z beach: ... but it happened.
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2015-02-23T05:04:04Z drmeister: I'm just pointing out that LLVM has this INVOKE instruction that implements CALL+stack-unwinding and it seems to beg for a separate AST node.  I can't argue for these other hypothetical implementations.
2015-02-23T05:04:16Z beach: drmeister: Exactly.
2015-02-23T05:04:48Z beach: drmeister: But I must plan for what other implementations might want.
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2015-02-23T05:06:53Z drmeister: I can do this with :around methods for CONVERT-FORM but I can't be sure that Cleavir won't implement an :around method and I can also implement an :around method for CONVERT-LAMBDA-CALL
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2015-02-23T05:07:32Z drmeister: So I don't need this IMPLEMENTATION-SPECIFIC-BUILD-CALL-LIKE-AST function - I thought I'd suggest it though.
2015-02-23T05:07:46Z drmeister: Maybe there is a better third way to do this.
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2015-02-23T05:08:32Z beach: drmeister: The CONVERT functions lack an IMPLEMENTATION argument.  If client code wants an :around method, it must specialize on some implementation-specific argument.  That's a general rule.
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2015-02-23T05:09:45Z beach: Once I introduce such a parameter, you can be sure that Cleavir won't have an :around method that clashes with yours.
2015-02-23T05:10:56Z drmeister: Oh, will you be introducing such a parameter?
2015-02-23T05:11:11Z beach: I am pretty sure I need to do that.
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2015-02-23T05:11:29Z drmeister: And for convert-lambda-call?
2015-02-23T05:11:33Z beach: Currently, there is only the environment argument, but that can be a local environment so it is no good for that purpose.
2015-02-23T05:11:51Z drmeister: Right
2015-02-23T05:11:55Z beach: Then all the CONVERT functions would take the implementation argument.
2015-02-23T05:12:11Z drmeister: Ok, I can work with that just fine.
2015-02-23T05:12:58Z beach: I can try to do that in the next few days.
2015-02-23T05:12:59Z drmeister: Do you think :around methods are a good way to do this?
2015-02-23T05:13:26Z beach: That's what they are for.  Intercept the normal processing of things in order to do something different.
2015-02-23T05:14:07Z beach: But like i said, the general rule is that an :AROUND method must specialize on at least one client-specific parameter.
2015-02-23T05:14:10Z drmeister: And do you think this idea of inserting INVOKE-AST nodes rather than CALL-AST nodes is a good one?
2015-02-23T05:14:53Z drmeister: Right - that's why I was uncomfortable creating those :around methods - I'm starting to think like you are wrt Cleavir
2015-02-23T05:15:23Z beach: I have no opinion about that, because I don't know enough of the LLVM.  It seems way more complicated than defining UNWIND-PROTECT as a macro, expanding to a function, and have all that stuff done in a function.
2015-02-23T05:16:21Z beach: ... but I am not in the business of telling implementations what to do.  It is just that I can't introduce implementation-specific stuff in Cleavir.
2015-02-23T05:16:28Z drmeister: I would still have to implement an INVOKE-AST node - otherwise if an exception is thrown in the protected-form function it would bypass the cleanup-forms
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2015-02-23T05:17:09Z beach: You could write the UNWIND-PROTECT FUNCTION in C++ or assembler.
2015-02-23T05:17:23Z beach: Then you don't need anything from Cleavir.
2015-02-23T05:18:39Z beach: You would have your INVOKE in a single place.
2015-02-23T05:20:23Z drmeister: But it forces everything into a closure which is the opposite direction of where I'm trying to go.  Doing this with INVOKE is the natural way to work with LLVM.
2015-02-23T05:21:02Z beach: Yes, I understand.
2015-02-23T05:22:05Z drmeister: You have acknowledged that UNWIND-PROTECT is implementation specific by not providing a CONVERT-SPECIAL method for it.  The implementation specific details for LLVM are that calls within protected-form code are converted to INVOKE with two successors and the second successor leads to cleanup code.
2015-02-23T05:23:12Z beach: Yes, I think I understand that.
2015-02-23T05:23:52Z drmeister: I implemented this in my current compiler going straight from S-expressions to LLVM-IR code. The way I'm implementing it in Cleavir is an order of magnitude simpler and more elegant than the brain-melting CL macros that I wrote before.
2015-02-23T05:24:57Z drmeister: To put my money where my mouth is I dare anyone to check out clasp/src/lisp/kernel/cmp/cmpeh.lsp.
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2015-02-23T05:26:24Z drmeister: I'm getting a crash course in compiler writing here beach - and I'm happy to learn at your feet.   If I suggest something that clashes with the design - feel free to educate me.
2015-02-23T05:26:42Z beach: I think that's what we are doing.  No?
2015-02-23T05:27:05Z drmeister: No!... I mean yes! Wait - what?
2015-02-23T05:27:15Z drmeister: Yes
2015-02-23T05:27:44Z beach: You suggest something that clashes with the design and I educate you. :)
2015-02-23T05:27:47Z drmeister: Or as we say in my home country?   Eh?
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2015-02-23T05:28:08Z burtons: drmeister: what part of canada are you from?
2015-02-23T05:28:16Z drmeister: Implementation specific :around methods it is then.
2015-02-23T05:28:30Z drmeister: The left coast.
2015-02-23T05:28:30Z beach: I need to vanish for around 30 minutes.  I'll be back.
2015-02-23T05:28:40Z burtons: i was from there once
2015-02-23T05:28:48Z burtons: originally
2015-02-23T05:29:23Z drmeister: So you understand what "Eh" means - (for those who don't it translates loosely as:  "That what I just said - it is true is it not?")
2015-02-23T05:29:43Z burtons: of course :)
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2015-02-23T05:34:13Z akkad: it's from the french
2015-02-23T05:34:33Z drmeister: We are a very efficient people.
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2015-02-23T05:35:04Z akkad: minus the d on zed
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2015-02-23T05:41:21Z burtons hopes Mezzano is worth the wait
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2015-02-23T05:45:26Z dmiles_afk: hope these bounty prices are not annoying since i know CLOS is much work..  https://github.com/TeamSPoon/MUD_ScriptEngines
2015-02-23T05:47:58Z burtons: why not just start with CL and write the prolog on top?
2015-02-23T05:48:14Z dmiles_afk: its been done already
2015-02-23T05:48:25Z burtons: i know, maybe they don't?
2015-02-23T05:49:13Z dmiles_afk: i guess alegro prolog is almost fast enough to .. but barely
2015-02-23T05:49:49Z dmiles_afk: i mean fast enough when you want to run prlog and lisp together
2015-02-23T05:50:13Z dmiles_afk: teh cl-prolog ffi is fast enough
2015-02-23T05:50:21Z burtons: implmenting prolog on lisp is pretty well documented
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2015-02-23T05:51:41Z dmiles_afk: i even implemnted prolog in lisp once
2015-02-23T05:52:02Z dmiles_afk: of course while reading a book :)
2015-02-23T05:52:29Z dmiles_afk: but no one has yet to implement lisp in prolog
2015-02-23T05:56:33Z beach: drmeister: Questions: 1. Why are you trying to avoid closures?  2. Are there so many UNWIND-PROTECTs in typical code that it is worth avoiding closures in this case?
2015-02-23T05:56:35Z Corvidium: Poplog?
2015-02-23T05:57:18Z drmeister: beach: My current approach of putting everything in closures is what I think is killing my performance.
2015-02-23T05:57:19Z dmiles_afk: Corvidium: is what i want in the end yes
2015-02-23T05:57:35Z beach: drmeister: Hence my question 2.
2015-02-23T05:58:13Z drmeister: I don't know how many unwind-protects there are.
2015-02-23T05:58:43Z dmiles_afk: Corvidium: but there are some undisclosed reasons it has to be in ISO-Prolog instead of ML
2015-02-23T05:59:59Z beach: drmeister: In my 4.5 million lines of Lisp source (not only my own code of course) there are 2888 occurrences of unwind-protect.
2015-02-23T06:00:49Z drmeister: And how many of them are in hot code?  Or loops?
2015-02-23T06:01:13Z beach: I have no easy way of finding out.
2015-02-23T06:01:44Z beach: Also, what makes you think that closures that are generated by Cleavir will have a performance problem?
2015-02-23T06:04:27Z beach: drmeister: Could you check how much time is taken by UNWIND-PROTECT in Clasp?
2015-02-23T06:05:16Z drmeister: They are the same kind of closures that I use - arrays of pointers.
2015-02-23T06:05:55Z beach: What?  A closure is a function.  No?
2015-02-23T06:06:09Z drmeister: I can't easily check how much time is taken by UNWIND-PROTECT in Clasp.  Also, the UNWIND-PROTECT in Clasp uses the same scheme that I am currently implementing.
2015-02-23T06:06:26Z drmeister: A function and an environment.
2015-02-23T06:08:32Z beach: I think it would be worthwhile giving it some thought as to how to measure the time taken by UNWIND-PROTECT.  Otherwise, you might end up working very hard for something that is not a performance problem at all.
2015-02-23T06:09:19Z beach: I find that I often have a completely distorted idea of what takes time and what doesn't.  The first step to improving performance is knowing where the bottlenecks are.
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2015-02-23T06:10:42Z drmeister: I don't think this is hard work.
2015-02-23T06:11:07Z beach: drmeister: What is it that takes time in your closures?  Creating them or calling them?
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2015-02-23T06:11:13Z drmeister: I'm also learning a lot about how Cleavir works from Sexps to MIR.
2015-02-23T06:11:41Z drmeister: beach: I don't know - I have spent months trying to figure it out.
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2015-02-23T06:12:34Z drmeister: All I know is the total time of creating, using and cleaning up heap objects is about 50x slower than stack objects.
2015-02-23T06:12:49Z drmeister: And _everything_ is currently on the heap.
2015-02-23T06:13:06Z drmeister: I'm not using the cache and I'm not using registers.
2015-02-23T06:13:39Z drmeister: All LLVM optimizations are related to integers and pointers on the stack and in registers.
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2015-02-23T06:15:22Z beach: I think you need a statistical profiler.
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2015-02-23T06:17:34Z drmeister: Profiling has not been very helpful.  It pointed out that on linux exception handling is slow and I got a 2-4x speedup when I reduced the amount of exception handling I was doing.
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2015-02-23T06:19:25Z beach: What did you use to profile the code?
2015-02-23T06:20:15Z drmeister: Instruments on OS X and gprof on linux
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2015-02-23T06:21:24Z beach: On second thought, I don't think a profiler would do, because the bottlenecks are scattered in many places in generated code.
2015-02-23T06:21:44Z drmeister: That would fit my experience.
2015-02-23T06:21:51Z beach: Something else needs to be done.
2015-02-23T06:22:31Z drmeister: How about incorporating a new compiler front end that moves most of the closed over (heap based) bindings onto the stack where LLVM can optimize them into registers?
2015-02-23T06:22:43Z beach: drmeister: From working on Multics, I got the idea of "meters" which I intend to use for SICL.  It is code that counts how many times a particular features is used and how much time it takes.  I wonder if something like that would give a better idea of the bottlenecks.  Such meters could be associated with generated code.
2015-02-23T06:23:28Z beach: drmeister: The "cells" in Cleavir code are subject to register allocation.
2015-02-23T06:23:35Z axion always hits the middle of the conversion and is wondering what drmeister has been working on for the longest time
2015-02-23T06:23:52Z beach: axion: He has been working on Clasp.
2015-02-23T06:24:20Z drmeister: I've implemented profiling code within Clasp - it isn't very useful because clocks aren't of sufficient resolution.
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2015-02-23T06:24:32Z flip214: drmeister: using gprof should show how often the code segments are being called... perhaps this helps?
2015-02-23T06:25:15Z drmeister: Look - guys - I'm looking for a 100x slow down.  I profile and nothing is taking 99% of the time.
2015-02-23T06:25:28Z axion: aha, i'm not really familiar with JIT or LLVM so I'll take your word for it
2015-02-23T06:25:28Z beach: flip214: I am guessing that if the problem is in generated code, there won't be only a few places that are slow, but they will be scattered all over.
2015-02-23T06:26:14Z drmeister: I get maybe 15% to 30% of the time spent in the garbage collector - which is what I read is acceptable in Java.
2015-02-23T06:26:15Z flip214: well, then lets start with a small example, and compare the assembler output... if the big picture won't help, use a microscope?
2015-02-23T06:29:49Z beach: Figuring out why Clasp has this performance problem is an interesting task.  But right now I must go do some more mundane stuff.
2015-02-23T06:30:11Z drmeister: Ok - thanks for your help - I'll talk to you later.
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2015-02-23T06:41:38Z drmeister: Here's what an AST looks like using INVOKE
2015-02-23T06:41:56Z drmeister: (hoisted-ast-form '(lambda () (unwind-protect (progn (print "a") (print "b") (print "c") (print "protected")) (print "cleanup1"))))]
2015-02-23T06:42:15Z drmeister: http://imgur.com/q5lTGkG
2015-02-23T06:44:13Z dmiles_afk: awesome lisp500 only has 68 C function used by lisp
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2015-02-23T06:44:57Z dmiles_afk: the other 90 are just called by the 68 touched by lisp
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2015-02-23T09:54:57Z zoidbergt51: does anyone have experience with movitz?
2015-02-23T09:55:07Z zoidbergt51: i can't get loops to work
2015-02-23T09:55:11Z zoidbergt51: or do or dolist
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2015-02-23T09:59:13Z axion: how can i do something like FROUND, but round up if remainder is >.5, down otherwise?
2015-02-23T09:59:56Z axion: >=.5 rather
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2015-02-23T10:02:41Z mood: axion: See the last note at the clhs page for FROUND
2015-02-23T10:02:57Z axion: ah, missed that. thank you
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2015-02-23T10:44:44Z Ralt: hm
2015-02-23T10:44:48Z Ralt: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/content-beane-full.html
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2015-02-23T10:45:05Z Ralt: I'm interested in the answer :D (what will it take for quicklisp to get out of beta?)
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2015-02-23T10:49:25Z jackdaniel waits for early registeration possibility
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2015-02-23T10:49:45Z jackdaniel: already have tickets to london :-)
2015-02-23T10:50:14Z AeroNotix: Ralt: what does beta even mean, in this context?
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2015-02-23T10:54:41Z AeroNotix: dang I would love to go to the CL conf in LDN
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2015-02-23T11:13:10Z loke: I'd like to as well, but no time to go.
2015-02-23T11:13:29Z loke: It's funny, time is the main barrier even though I live 8 timezones away
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2015-02-23T11:24:58Z Xof: registration will open "soon" I promise
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2015-02-23T11:43:54Z jackdaniel: that's a great news
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2015-02-23T12:01:25Z Shinmera: oGMo: I got it all working nicely. https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TXpnMg==
2015-02-23T12:02:09Z Shinmera: oGMo: And, because "why not both", you can also avoid having to use the special readtable by instead writing (q+ make-qwidget) etc.
2015-02-23T12:02:48Z Shinmera: oGMo: Thanks a lot again for the initial idea! I don't think I would've thought of it myself anytime soon.
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2015-02-23T13:38:02Z Xaving: Is there a way to interact with octave from sbcl?
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2015-02-23T14:02:16Z Ralt: I'm reading an usocket stream using read-line, and I get utf-8 invalid byte errors... what can cause this, and how can I fix it?
2015-02-23T14:02:19Z Ralt: I know the stream is fine using other softwares
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2015-02-23T14:02:25Z Ralt: I just have a (loop for line = (read-line socket-stream nil 'eof) until (eq line 'eof) collect line)
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2015-02-23T14:06:16Z Xach: Ralt: it means that the bytes do not form valid utf-8 sequences
2015-02-23T14:06:44Z Xach: Ralt: what kind of bytes do you expect?
2015-02-23T14:07:06Z Ralt: Xach: an http response
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2015-02-23T14:08:17Z Xach: Ralt: ok. an http response is divided up into the header, which is text under a particular encoding, and the body, which might have another text encoding or might be arbitrary binary data.
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2015-02-23T14:09:09Z Xach: Ralt: do you know in which part you are getting the error?
2015-02-23T14:09:16Z didi: So apparently I can't use `defconstant' with a list in SBCL. Is there an alternative besides using `defvar'?
2015-02-23T14:09:18Z Ralt: Xach: hm. I'll look up what's the headers encoding is
2015-02-23T14:09:34Z Ralt: Xach: unfortunately no..
2015-02-23T14:09:47Z Ralt: I tried break'ing, but I get a whole bunch of bytes... so not helpful
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2015-02-23T14:10:53Z pjb: 0
2015-02-23T14:10:53Z Xach: didi: the sbcl manual suggests some workarounds. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Defining-Constants
2015-02-23T14:11:21Z Xach: Ralt: When I want to get data via HTTP, I usually use a library like drakma.
2015-02-23T14:11:55Z didi: Xach: Oh, thank you. I should have tried the manual first. /me blushes
2015-02-23T14:13:18Z Ralt: Xach: I think I'll end up doing that.
2015-02-23T14:15:38Z Xach: Ralt: when i don't use a library, I usually treat the data as binary only and look for the character codes that define delimiters (like the end of header sequence, or the code for the colon that separates header names from values, etc).
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2015-02-23T14:17:05Z Ralt: Xach: hmmm I see. Thanks for the pointer
2015-02-23T14:17:28Z Ralt: I'll try to go with binary streams before using drakma
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2015-02-23T14:40:35Z didi: Is it customary to decorate constants with `+'s?
2015-02-23T14:40:43Z Xach: didi: yes
2015-02-23T14:40:53Z didi: Xach: Cool, thanks.
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2015-02-23T14:43:33Z Xaving: Is there a difference between #(1 2) and '(1 2)?
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2015-02-23T14:44:14Z ggole: Xaving: surely you can answer that by typing them both into a repl
2015-02-23T14:44:19Z H4ns: try (type-of '(1 2)) vs (type-of #(1 2))
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2015-02-23T14:47:41Z Xaving: Oh, i see. Thank you.
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2015-02-23T14:53:03Z nyef: G'morning all.
2015-02-23T14:53:16Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-02-23T14:57:57Z Shinmera: https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TXpnNQ==
2015-02-23T14:58:19Z eudoxia: nice
2015-02-23T14:58:20Z eudoxia: nice
2015-02-23T14:58:39Z eudoxia: now we need an HTML version of print-object
2015-02-23T14:58:51Z Shinmera: Barely a 100 lines.
2015-02-23T14:59:10Z Xach: heh, i can barely see the dark blue on black output
2015-02-23T14:59:22Z Shinmera: Yeah, the colours aren't ideal.
2015-02-23T14:59:38Z Shinmera: Curse you, HTML "blue".
2015-02-23T14:59:46Z eudoxia: Shinmera: is that a Qt text thing or a webview?
2015-02-23T15:00:15Z Shinmera: QTextEdit
2015-02-23T15:00:30Z Shinmera: Like many Qt components it can display HTML though, which is what I'm using for the colours.
2015-02-23T15:00:33Z eudoxia: what subset of HTML/CSS does it support again?
2015-02-23T15:01:05Z Shinmera: No idea.
2015-02-23T15:01:11Z eudoxia: hmm
2015-02-23T15:01:28Z Shinmera: Anyway, for those who are interested, code's here: https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/tree/master/qtools-example
2015-02-23T15:01:41Z Shinmera: I'll brb
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2015-02-23T15:06:50Z Shinmera: I think I'll try to add stream handling to the example as well and then call it done. It should illustrate using Qtools well enough.
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2015-02-23T15:15:15Z splittist: Shinmera: make the objects clickable and you've got something... (:
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2015-02-23T15:17:24Z Shinmera: splittist: It looks like QDocuments have an interface for blocks and such, so something like that should be possible.
2015-02-23T15:17:36Z Shinmera: But, again, this is an example and not a real thing. I'll leave that up to someone else.
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2015-02-23T15:49:45Z Xaving: Mathlisp does not appear in Clwiki. Is that a bad sign?
2015-02-23T15:50:22Z Xach: No.
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2015-02-23T15:53:11Z Xaving: Ok. Thank you.
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2015-02-23T16:26:48Z Xaving: Is there a lib in quicklisp for simple linear algebra on Matrix (*, .*, /, sum, transpose...)?
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2015-02-23T16:26:58Z akkad wishes they sold IB from CAPI as a addon to sbcl
2015-02-23T16:27:19Z nyef: akkad: Clone it?
2015-02-23T16:28:18Z akkad: :D
2015-02-23T16:28:37Z akkad: mcclim on steroids
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2015-02-23T16:39:39Z isis_ is now known as therik
2015-02-23T16:39:46Z therik: Hello
2015-02-23T16:39:54Z therik: is there something like hash set in CL?
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2015-02-23T16:40:13Z Xach: therik: Not built-in.
2015-02-23T16:40:17Z therik: I'd like to keep ordered set of objects, be able to access them sequentially and remove on demand
2015-02-23T16:40:32Z Shinmera: And here we go, streams are in too. https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TXpreA==
2015-02-23T16:40:57Z Shinmera: Now I just need to update the documentation for Qtools and I can forget about it again for a while. Hopefully.
2015-02-23T16:41:18Z therik: I can use hash table with same keys as values, would that make senese?
2015-02-23T16:41:42Z therik: is there some kind of optimization that it takes hashes of those objects when comparing keys?
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2015-02-23T16:43:54Z Xach: when i'm just using a hash table to keep track of a set of objects, i often use T as the value.
2015-02-23T16:44:09Z Xach: using the object itself is fine too
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2015-02-23T16:52:38Z therik: thanks Xach, good idea
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2015-02-23T16:53:13Z samebchase: therik: [PLUG WARNING]: https://github.com/samebchase/hash-set
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2015-02-23T16:53:29Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-02-23T16:53:59Z samebchase: evening beach
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2015-02-23T16:57:32Z therik: samebchase, got it already :)
2015-02-23T16:58:48Z samebchase: heh
2015-02-23T17:00:03Z therik: thanks a lot, looks good :)
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2015-02-23T17:03:33Z samebchase: therik: I'd love to hear if there are any issues.
2015-02-23T17:04:02Z therik: can't say, I'm typing now, not going to compile till tomorrow
2015-02-23T17:04:20Z therik: if I find, I'll tellyou
2015-02-23T17:05:21Z samebchase: thanks; have fun
2015-02-23T17:09:35Z Xach ponders a closer2mop but for logical pathnames
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2015-02-23T17:09:58Z Xof: isn't some of the pain there having to decide what the semantics will be?
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2015-02-23T17:11:24Z Xach: maybe!
2015-02-23T17:11:53Z Xach: maybe closer2mop is a bad analogy. maybe a cl-fad-ish thing. there are a number of convenience functions i wish i had.
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2015-02-23T18:23:43Z drmeister: Hello beach:  Are you still online?
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2015-02-23T18:42:47Z xyh: do we have any assembler in lisp as easy as FASM (flat assembler) ?
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2015-02-23T18:54:53Z pjb: xyh: there are assemblers written in lisp (ie. portable libraries), and there are assemblers included in lisp implementations (ie. implementation specific extensions).
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2015-02-23T19:08:15Z sol__: hi :) i'm attempting to wrap a string in stream with flex:with-input-from-sequence and then read-byte fails because "first character is not an integer"
2015-02-23T19:08:50Z sol__: i don't get it - why should i care what is the underlying data of the stream?
2015-02-23T19:10:22Z pjb: Perhaps you should use (set flexi-stream-element-type) to switch between character and binary stream?  I've never used flexistreams directly, but that'd be my guess.
2015-02-23T19:11:29Z Xach: sol__: i don't think flexi-streams are designed to convert characters into bytes. it is to make a stream out of a sequence of bytes.
2015-02-23T19:12:03Z Xach: sol__: what would you want to use for the byte value of the letter a?
2015-02-23T19:12:17Z sol__: oh so i shold string-to-octets before... ok... i just thought that string is considered to be a sequence as well
2015-02-23T19:12:35Z pjb: it is, but of character, not of bytes.
2015-02-23T19:12:46Z sol__: ok cool thanks
2015-02-23T19:12:56Z Xach: it is a sequence, but not a sequence of numbers.
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2015-02-23T19:36:58Z edne: Hi! I'm quite new to lisps (I know only Hy, the pythonic one), I'm searching a minimal and handy lisp/scheme that I will use to generate other languages code (mostly C)
2015-02-23T19:37:18Z edne: can you suggest me one?
2015-02-23T19:37:57Z eudoxia: you mean you want a Lisp that compiles to C, or a Lisp that you can use to generate C code programmatically?
2015-02-23T19:38:42Z edne: the second :)
2015-02-23T19:39:07Z eudoxia: well you can use any Lisp that supports strings for that
2015-02-23T19:39:10Z Grue``: this channel is for Common Lisp, so that's probably what will be suggested... even though it's hardly minimal
2015-02-23T19:39:21Z eudoxia: I would suggest Common Lisp, because of what Grue`` said
2015-02-23T19:39:22Z Grue`` is now known as Grue`
2015-02-23T19:39:29Z dlowe: ##lisp is for the lisp family of languages
2015-02-23T19:39:42Z eudoxia has learned to appreciate the value of CL's maximalism
2015-02-23T19:39:47Z edne: ah, ok thanks!
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2015-02-23T19:41:32Z _death: you may find http://www.merl.com/publications/TR93-17 useful
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2015-02-23T19:43:03Z edne: interesting..
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2015-02-23T19:51:13Z pjb: CL is minimalist! It doesn't even specify threads or sockets!
2015-02-23T19:51:22Z pjb: Let alone REST APIs!
2015-02-23T19:51:42Z jasom: edne: I'm pretty sure shortly after Hy came out someone made something similar for C++
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2015-02-23T19:53:55Z _death: do the other lisps of the day have a nice pretty printer
2015-02-23T19:57:25Z dkcl: _death: Are you saying SBCL doesn't? :P
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2015-02-23T20:02:21Z _death: dkcl: I'm actually suggesting it does
2015-02-23T20:02:42Z _death: dkcl: (by "other lisps" I'm talking about uncommon ones)
2015-02-23T20:03:09Z dkcl: _death: I use CCL a lot, but I haven't really tried its pretty printer
2015-02-23T20:03:41Z dkcl: It's pretty easy to set up so maybe give it a try
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2015-02-23T20:04:07Z mood: dkcl: I think _death means Lisps that aren't Common Lisp
2015-02-23T20:04:21Z dkcl: Oh! I can't help there :(
2015-02-23T20:06:51Z jasom: I'm sure each scheme implementation has its own slightly different pretty printer extension
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2015-02-23T20:10:26Z _death: dkcl: I didn't mean the code to print lisp expressions, but the pretty printer provided in CL (pprint)
2015-02-23T20:12:21Z _death: which is extensible (see the link I gave)
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2015-02-23T20:13:09Z Odin-: <3 XP
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2015-02-23T20:37:44Z pjb: _death: you're in the wrong channel for uncommon lisps.  As it has been hinted above, you should try ##lisp for uncommon lisps.
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2015-02-23T20:40:56Z _death: pjb: not that interested in the answer
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2015-02-23T20:56:40Z wglb: Xach: I have started using uiop rather than cl-fad.
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2015-02-23T21:49:22Z faheem_: Just posted this to SO.
2015-02-23T21:49:25Z faheem_: http://stackoverflow.com/q/28684001/350713
2015-02-23T21:50:58Z Xach: faheem_: CL environments generally compile only in response to user commands like COMPILE and COMPILE-FILE.
2015-02-23T21:52:12Z Xach: I think you may have trouble getting useful responses to the question, because the question includes several assumptions about C, C++, and common lisp that are unclear and possibly incorrect.
2015-02-23T21:53:07Z faheem_: Xach:  maybe. I guess I could delete it, but maybe it is correctable? what kinds of unclear/incorrect assumptions?
2015-02-23T21:54:09Z Xach: faheem_: "the compilation is not under the user's direct control, unlike C/C++". what does that mean? why do you think it is so?
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2015-02-23T21:55:33Z faheem_: Xach: it means the compiler may choose to compile something, and the user won't necessarily know about it.
2015-02-23T21:55:46Z Xach: faheem_: what kind of "something"?
2015-02-23T21:56:08Z faheem_: Xach: code. a file. or part of a file.
2015-02-23T21:56:21Z faheem_: maybe just an expression.
2015-02-23T21:56:41Z Xach: faheem_: why do you think the user will not necessarily know about it?
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2015-02-23T21:57:10Z Xach: Like there is a task that may take previously uncompiled code and convert it to compiled code behind the scenes?
2015-02-23T21:58:35Z faheem_: Xach: dunno. based on my limited experience, it is not clear to me if/when the compiler might be recompiling code. like for example. you have some code and you are passing different arguments to it. and I guess a macro might be involved.
2015-02-23T21:58:52Z Xach: faheem_: that does not happen
2015-02-23T21:59:07Z H4ns: faheem_: what do you need to know about compilation?  what is it that makes you want to be aware of when what is compiled?
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2015-02-23T22:00:46Z Xach: faheem_: in current environments, things are compiled when you ask them to be, and not compiled again unless you ask them to be again.
2015-02-23T22:01:08Z faheem_: H4ns:  partly speed issues. partly just curiousity.
2015-02-23T22:01:09Z Xach: calling things with different arguments does not recompile anything
2015-02-23T22:01:25Z faheem_: Xach: i see
2015-02-23T22:01:49Z faheem_: anyway, maybe I'll delete the SO question. Ill-posted questions don't help anyone.
2015-02-23T22:01:53Z faheem_: What do you think?
2015-02-23T22:02:04Z Xach: I think that is a good idea.
2015-02-23T22:02:09Z H4ns: faheem_: i have trouble determining the scope of the question, too.
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2015-02-23T22:02:21Z faheem_: Xach: ok, I'll do that then.
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2015-02-23T22:03:24Z faheem_: Balls, it says the question has answers and cannot be deleted. flag for mod attention.
2015-02-23T22:03:59Z H4ns: faheem_: there may be some invisible compilation going on inside of clos, for example to generate optimized slot accessors.  but in general, compilation in common lisp is relatively explicit.
2015-02-23T22:04:23Z H4ns: faheem_: also, most contemporary cl systems compile repl input on the fly and don't use an interpreter by default.  some include an interpreter.
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2015-02-23T22:05:14Z H4ns: faheem_: lastly, if you use abcl, there will be jit compilation of bytecode inside of the jvm which is, as an activity, mostly invisible but has dramatic (positive) performance impact.
2015-02-23T22:06:02Z H4ns: faheem_: i think that nowadays, talking about compilation, when it happens, and contrasting it to interpretation is not very useful anymore.  systems have become more complex, and more dynamic.
2015-02-23T22:06:38Z faheem_: In normal usage, one can load code from a file into a REPL. I think the SLIME command C-c C-l (if I recall correctly) compiles it, at least for SBCL and CCL.
2015-02-23T22:07:15Z H4ns: faheem_: yes.  by default, if you load something in sbcl or ccl, it is first compiled.
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2015-02-23T22:08:28Z faheem_: Ok. But once it has been loaded in the REPL, it is then never recompiled?
2015-02-23T22:08:36Z H4ns: no.
2015-02-23T22:08:52Z H4ns: why do you think that it would be recompiled?
2015-02-23T22:08:53Z faheem_: H4ns: ah, Ok. That's good to know. Sorry for the confused question.
2015-02-23T22:09:41Z faheem_: H4ns: dunno. I thought in response to different kinds of user input. I know that macros have to be expanded and compiled. I thought user input might affect that. So then a macro might have to be recompiled.
2015-02-23T22:09:51Z H4ns: you wish :)
2015-02-23T22:10:53Z H4ns: no, common lisps model is rather simple.  if you compile a function in which macros are used, the macros are expanded once during compilation and the resulting code ends up in the function's compiled version.  if you then change the macro, the compiled function won't be changed by that.
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2015-02-23T22:11:18Z Ralt: faheem_: the "multiple compilation" you talk about for C/C++ are headers recompilations, right?
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2015-02-23T22:11:54Z faheem_: Ralt: no, the multiple compilation was with reference to CL, not C/C++.
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2015-02-23T22:13:11Z faheem_: My question was whether the compiled output can change if no code changes. I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen with C/C++.
2015-02-23T22:13:23Z H4ns: faheem_: even though common lisp is very sophisticated in some areas, it is rather simple and old-fashioned overall :)
2015-02-23T22:13:25Z Ralt: ah
2015-02-23T22:13:52Z H4ns: faheem_: no, the compiled output cannot change when no code change, and that also won't happen implicitly.
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2015-02-23T22:14:10Z faheem_: Apparently CL doesn't really behave differently. Somehow I got the impression it did. But I don't really understand the underlying machinery, hence the misunderstanding.
2015-02-23T22:14:46Z faheem_: H4ns: ok. I got the impression that CL is space age rocket stuff, hence it does all sorts of weird and wonderful things behind the scenes.
2015-02-23T22:15:10Z H4ns: faheem_: but, and that may be a source of confusion, with most cl systems you don't get to actually see the output of the compiler as a separate file or something as tangible.
2015-02-23T22:15:29Z Ralt: faheem_: the output seems to be the same: http://i.imgur.com/lDY3iqH.png
2015-02-23T22:15:30Z H4ns: faheem_: but that should not lead you to believe that something fundamentally different goes on.
2015-02-23T22:16:40Z faheem_: H4ns: ok, fair enough
2015-02-23T22:17:43Z faheem_: Apparently you can make the compilation explicit, but I guess that is not how most people do it.
2015-02-23T22:18:01Z faheem_: The answer there mentions COMPILE-FILE, which I don't think I've ever called directly.
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2015-02-23T22:18:19Z H4ns: most people in this realm use asdf, and asdf actually compiles everything explicitly before loading it.
2015-02-23T22:18:30Z faheem_: H4ns: oh
2015-02-23T22:19:25Z H4ns: it is just that a) people tend to not think about it and b) even if asdf would not compile explicitly and just load all the source files, the code would be compiled
2015-02-23T22:19:57Z Bicyclidine: C-c C-k calls compile-file, probably
2015-02-23T22:20:06Z faheem_: H4ns: sorry, I didn't follow b). Even if asdf doesn't compile, the code would be compiled?
2015-02-23T22:20:12Z H4ns: Bicyclidine: are you sure? :)
2015-02-23T22:20:31Z H4ns: faheem_: yes, implicitly, because none of the current cl systems use an interpreter by default
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2015-02-23T22:23:12Z H4ns: faheem_: try it - put some function definition into a file, load it, call compiled-function-p appropriately
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2015-02-23T22:24:45Z H4ns: obviously, compiling stuff has the advantage that, in the general case, it is faster to load a compiled function than to compile it on the fly.
2015-02-23T22:25:01Z H4ns: that is what .fasl files are about.
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2015-02-23T22:32:55Z faheem_: H4ns: what would I expect to see with compiled-function-p?
2015-02-23T22:34:04Z H4ns: faheem_: you might think that if you load a .lisp file containing a function definition, that compiled-function-p would return nil for that function.
2015-02-23T22:34:29Z H4ns: faheem_: because hey, you did not call compile, so why would the function be compiled?
2015-02-23T22:34:46Z faheem_: Oh, I see it would return t
2015-02-23T22:34:48Z H4ns: faheem_: but maybe you're not expecting that now :)
2015-02-23T22:34:57Z faheem_: H4ns: :-)
2015-02-23T22:35:00Z H4ns: faheem_: don't trust me, try it out.
2015-02-23T22:35:09Z faheem_: H4ns: ok, I will. Thanks.
2015-02-23T22:35:34Z H4ns: faheem_: thank you for the questions.  i've learned something tonight.  off to bed now. :)
2015-02-23T22:35:50Z faheem_: H4ns: thank you for the education.
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2015-02-23T23:04:09Z Nekfh: hi hackers
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2015-02-23T23:06:54Z taylanub: FWIW CCL is now in GNU Guix.  thanks for everyone's help.  this means Guix now has GCL, ECL, CLISP, SBCL, and CCL :-)
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2015-02-23T23:14:25Z pjb: taylanub: thanks.
2015-02-23T23:14:56Z pjb: taylanub: probably next implementation interesting to have would be abcl if Guix contains a jvm.
2015-02-23T23:16:30Z taylanub: they're still working on openjdk IIRC; will look into it
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2015-02-23T23:26:39Z Poenikatu: Has anybody succeeded in getting the example-grid-packing example in cl-cffi-gtk working?
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