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2015-02-13T00:57:24Z AeroNotix: Did anyone try that CEPL?
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2015-02-13T01:13:41Z emaczen: So I am having trouble working with the inheritance system
2015-02-13T01:14:48Z emaczen: I have two classes A and B where A is the superclass to B
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2015-02-13T01:15:28Z pjb: emaczen: sounds good so far.
2015-02-13T01:15:45Z emaczen: They each have an initialize-method that I believe should call their implementation specific methods
2015-02-13T01:16:12Z pjb: what is  initialize-method?
2015-02-13T01:16:15Z emaczen: However, it appears that the subclass B is calling the implementation specific method for superclass A
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2015-02-13T01:16:24Z pjb: Do you mean initialize-instance method?
2015-02-13T01:16:26Z emaczen: oops -- initialize-instance
2015-02-13T01:16:29Z emaczen: yes
2015-02-13T01:16:31Z pjb: What about call-next-method?
2015-02-13T01:16:59Z pjb: It's a method like any other, and subclasses SHOULD in general, invoke the superclass method!
2015-02-13T01:17:10Z pjb: Have you ever heard of Lyskof substition principle?
2015-02-13T01:17:10Z emaczen: Is this a default?
2015-02-13T01:17:14Z emaczen: no
2015-02-13T01:17:36Z pjb: This is the main reason why people don't get OO: they don't know about Lyskof substition principle?
2015-02-13T01:17:40Z pjb: s/?/./
2015-02-13T01:18:25Z pjb: emaczen: an instance of B is an A, therefore it should be initialized as an A.
2015-02-13T01:19:43Z emaczen: pjb: can you change the order with :before and :after?
2015-02-13T01:19:44Z pjb: emaczen: each class should have an invariant.  You can implement it as a predicate method: (invariant (make-instance 'A)) --> T
2015-02-13T01:20:19Z pjb: What order are you talking about?
2015-02-13T01:20:43Z novemberist: if i run my lisp program from a terminal, why does the (read) prompt always get executed before (princ "foo: ") even if it clearly appears later in the code? i know i somehow have to use (terpri) but then the prompt won't be on the same line as the text
2015-02-13T01:20:56Z pjb: emaczen: http://pupeno.com/2007/09/06/common-lisp-method-composition/
2015-02-13T01:21:11Z pjb: novemberist: the same occur in any other programming language, include C.
2015-02-13T01:21:12Z emaczen: pjb: It looks like it sort of worked by changing the "order"
2015-02-13T01:21:20Z pjb: novemberist: what does it tell to you?
2015-02-13T01:21:29Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2015-02-13T01:22:29Z novemberist: i should use format and force-output like explained in pcl?
2015-02-13T01:22:31Z emaczen: pjb: I'm going to run into OO issues since I am kinda making things up as I go and take make matters harder I don't know all the features of CLOS (I have a general idea).
2015-02-13T01:22:39Z pjb: emaczen: usually, while initializing, you only need :after methods.  The reason why, is that because you cannot do anything to an object BEFORE it is initialized.
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2015-02-13T01:22:58Z pjb: emaczen: the only reason why you'd use a normal method to initialize it, is if you want to pre-process the arguments.
2015-02-13T01:23:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: pjb, So, around is :beforebefore ?
2015-02-13T01:23:16Z pjb: emaczen: but it shouldn't occur often, it'd be a code smell.
2015-02-13T01:23:38Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: yes.
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2015-02-13T01:23:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: That's weird.
2015-02-13T01:23:55Z emaczen: If I put :before on the subclass then I would think it should call that method before (if at all) it calls the superclass method
2015-02-13T01:23:56Z pjb: It allows to go around before primary after, from the superclass.
2015-02-13T01:24:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: And :after isn't really like :before, but after the primary method?
2015-02-13T01:24:23Z pjb: emaczen: that's correct.  But as I said, at that time the object is not initialized, so you probably do not want to do that.
2015-02-13T01:25:06Z emaczen: pjb: What about the defclass forms?
2015-02-13T01:25:17Z emaczen: pjb: I mean, the initforms in the defclass forms
2015-02-13T01:25:28Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: the thing is that before and after methods are invoked even when the primary method doesn't call next method, ie. even if they override and shadow the primary method of the super classes.
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2015-02-13T01:26:04Z pjb: emaczen: initforms are only used if the slot is not initialized otherwise, IIRC.
2015-02-13T01:26:46Z emaczen: IIRC?
2015-02-13T01:27:00Z pjb: If I Recall Correct.
2015-02-13T01:27:11Z pjb: ly
2015-02-13T01:27:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: Are :before and :after called around every method call, even if a method is called with (call-next-method)?
2015-02-13T01:27:28Z pjb: check the diagram.
2015-02-13T01:27:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: It confuses me.
2015-02-13T01:27:39Z pjb: follow the arrows.
2015-02-13T01:28:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: What do I do when it branches?
2015-02-13T01:28:13Z pjb: Test whether the method calls or not (call-next-method).
2015-02-13T01:28:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: Okay, fair enough.
2015-02-13T01:28:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: I assume this all seems really convenient when making things that use it?
2015-02-13T01:28:54Z pjb: Notice that in the case of :around method, if you don't call call-next-method, the chain is broken.
2015-02-13T01:29:21Z pjb: So you can completely override methods with an :around methods (and this would be bad).
2015-02-13T01:29:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ah, I think I get it now.
2015-02-13T01:30:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: The branching is saying. "If call-next-method isn't called, just skip to the after methods."
2015-02-13T01:30:24Z pjb: yes.
2015-02-13T01:30:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks, this makes a lot more sense.
2015-02-13T01:31:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: "pjb> Test whether the method calls or not (call-next-method)." I thought you were telling me to go into emacs and test it out.
2015-02-13T01:31:22Z pjb: Well, yes, look at the source of the method.
2015-02-13T01:32:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: I mean I thought you were telling me to go write some code instead of answering my question.
2015-02-13T01:32:59Z novemberist: pjb: any way to get around that behavior?
2015-02-13T01:33:05Z pjb: Notice that call-next-method must be called in the lexical scope of a method defining form.
2015-02-13T01:33:23Z pjb: novemberist: yes: flush output!  using finish-output.
2015-02-13T01:33:39Z novemberist: pjb: thank you
2015-02-13T01:33:52Z pjb: novemberist: there's also clear-input to flush input, and force-output to initiate flushing (but for input, you'll prefer finish-output).
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2015-02-13T01:35:01Z novemberist: pjb: just tried it, works as intended. thanks again
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2015-02-13T02:04:15Z emaczen: I keep getting a "slot-missing" error when setfing a slot
2015-02-13T02:04:28Z emaczen: pjb: Is this related to my slot not being initialized?
2015-02-13T02:05:06Z pjb: No, it's related to your slot being missing.
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2015-02-13T02:05:59Z emaczen: It is telling me a slot from my superclass is missing
2015-02-13T02:06:06Z emaczen: How does that make sense?
2015-02-13T02:06:20Z emaczen: slots are inherited right?
2015-02-13T02:06:27Z pjb: Why don't you believe your faithful lisp system?
2015-02-13T02:06:37Z pjb: Yes, slots are inherited, by subclasses.
2015-02-13T02:07:26Z emaczen: pjb: I see a contradiction here then
2015-02-13T02:08:05Z emaczen: my subclass inherits a slot that the compiler tells me is missing when it trys to setf it
2015-02-13T02:09:11Z pjb: emaczen: use the mop: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145750
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2015-02-13T02:13:21Z emaczen: pjb: Yeah, it's there.
2015-02-13T02:13:44Z emaczen: Question though -- what about namespaces?
2015-02-13T02:14:07Z pjb: I've pasted my code.
2015-02-13T02:14:24Z pjb: I just don't care about  YOUR namespaces.
2015-02-13T02:14:50Z emaczen: pjb: I just have a general questions about namespaces and CLOS classes
2015-02-13T02:15:04Z pjb: Unrelated.
2015-02-13T02:15:26Z pjb: You cannot put anything "namespaces" and CLOS in the same sentence.
2015-02-13T02:15:30Z pjb: It's meaningless.
2015-02-13T02:15:58Z emaczen: pjb: The question comes from what I am seeing from the output of "closer-mop:class-slots"
2015-02-13T02:16:05Z pjb: Probably.
2015-02-13T02:16:21Z pjb: But still, CLOS doesn't deal with your so called "namespace".
2015-02-13T02:16:25Z emaczen: The inherited slots are prefixed with their namespace.
2015-02-13T02:16:53Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_n.htm  namespace n. 1. bindings whose denotations are restricted to a particular kind. ``The bindings of names to tags is the tag namespace.'' 2. any mapping whose domain is a set of names. ``A package defines a namespace.''
2015-02-13T02:17:05Z pjb: emaczen: slots just do not have namespaces.
2015-02-13T02:17:32Z pjb: slot n. a component of an object that can store a value.
2015-02-13T02:17:38Z pjb: slot specifier n. a representation of a slot that includes the name of the slot and zero or more slot options. A slot option pertains only to a single slot.
2015-02-13T02:17:42Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm
2015-02-13T02:17:59Z emaczen: Then why are my slots getting prefixed with different namespaces?
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2015-02-13T02:18:11Z emaczen: My classes are in separate packages
2015-02-13T02:18:14Z pjb: A slot may have a value, it may have a name, it may have options.  But no namespace.
2015-02-13T02:18:19Z emaczen: The superclass and subclass that is
2015-02-13T02:18:30Z pjb: Because 1- those are not namespace.
2015-02-13T02:18:49Z pjb: Slots may have names that are symbols.  Symbols may be interned in a package.
2015-02-13T02:18:52Z emaczen: what are they then?
2015-02-13T02:18:53Z pjb: See, no namespace here.
2015-02-13T02:19:20Z pjb: Try: (defclass c (b) (#:z)) and  (closer-mop:class-slots (find-class 'c))
2015-02-13T02:20:30Z emaczen: I got an error -- I think we are talking about different things
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2015-02-13T02:20:47Z pjb: You cannot understand your error, because you are using the wrong words and the wrong concepts.
2015-02-13T02:21:06Z pjb: Start using the right words, then perhaps you'll be able to understand the right concepts, and then there won't be any error left.
2015-02-13T02:21:23Z pjb: Said otherwise, read clhs, including its glossary.
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2015-02-13T02:21:43Z emaczen: pjb: Alright, I thought I had the right vocabulary
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2015-02-13T02:22:18Z pjb: You didn't.  So you have slots that have names.  Those names are symbols.  Symbols may be interned into some package, or uninterned.
2015-02-13T02:23:09Z emaczen: Okay, let me try again
2015-02-13T02:23:17Z pjb: When printing a symbol, if it is not accessible from the current package (bound to the variable CL:*PACKAGE*) then it may be printed with the package named prefixed to the symbol name (and separated with : or :: depending on whether the symbol is exported from its package).
2015-02-13T02:23:29Z emaczen: brb
2015-02-13T02:23:45Z pjb: This notation package:symbol is named qualifying the symbol.
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2015-02-13T02:31:27Z emaczen: pjb: what does not yet finalized mean? It was working before.
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2015-02-13T02:31:45Z emaczen: for 'closer-mop:class-slots'
2015-02-13T02:31:45Z pjb: It means mostly that the superclass has not been defined.
2015-02-13T02:31:57Z pjb: Oh, no.  It means you need to make an instance before.
2015-02-13T02:32:18Z pjb: Until you make an instance, the classes may not be entirely finished building.
2015-02-13T02:32:55Z emaczen: Here is some example output:  #<SB-MOP:STANDARD-EFFECTIVE-SLOT-DEFINITION DT::FORMATTED-LINES>
2015-02-13T02:32:55Z emaczen:  #<SB-MOP:STANDARD-EFFECTIVE-SLOT-DEFINITION NLP::STOP-WORDS>
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2015-02-13T02:33:18Z pjb: You may use (closer-mop:ensure-finalized (find-class 'your-class)
2015-02-13T02:33:19Z pjb: )
2015-02-13T02:33:33Z emaczen: So my question is
2015-02-13T02:33:46Z pjb: So you have two slots, one named DT::FORMATTED-LINES and one named NLP::STOP-WORDS.  No error here.
2015-02-13T02:34:53Z emaczen: Inside NLP package do I need to prefix DT:: on the slots inherited from a superclass insid the DT package?
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2015-02-13T02:35:11Z pjb: If they're not otherwise accessible from the NLP package, then yes.
2015-02-13T02:35:23Z emaczen: Ok cool.
2015-02-13T02:35:31Z emaczen: I'll try that.
2015-02-13T02:35:41Z pjb: If the DT package didn't export the name of the slots, it's probably for a reason.
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2015-02-13T02:35:57Z pjb: Like, to avoid client code messing with DT slots.
2015-02-13T02:36:03Z emaczen: Is it recommended to require/use packages in other packages? (This is like #include or "import" in other languages right?)
2015-02-13T02:36:56Z pjb: emaczen: exporting a symbol from a package is a way to document that this symbol may used by the clients of this package, while not exporting a symbol is a sign that it's not intended to be used outside of that package.
2015-02-13T02:37:28Z emaczen: Yes, and you use : and :: for classes that have and have not been exported.
2015-02-13T02:37:34Z pjb: Using a package in another package only makes the exported symbols of the used package accessible in the using package.  It doesn't do anything for unexported symbols.
2015-02-13T02:37:44Z pjb: Classes cannot be exported.
2015-02-13T02:37:46Z pjb: clhs export
2015-02-13T02:37:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_export.htm
2015-02-13T02:37:55Z pjb: export symbols &optional package => t
2015-02-13T02:37:55Z pjb:  
2015-02-13T02:38:02Z pjb: see, only symbols can be exported.
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2015-02-13T02:38:32Z pjb: "exported classes" is just meaningless.
2015-02-13T02:39:06Z emaczen: Can't a symbol refer to a class?
2015-02-13T02:39:08Z pjb: If you keep using the wrong words, you'll keep seeing errors where there are none.
2015-02-13T02:39:13Z emaczen: a symbol names a class?
2015-02-13T02:39:19Z Zhivago: A symbol can name many things.
2015-02-13T02:39:20Z pjb: Yes, class names are symbols.
2015-02-13T02:39:42Z Zhivago: + can name a variable, a function, a class, etc, simultaneously.
2015-02-13T02:39:42Z emaczen: So you use : and :: for symbols that have and have not been exported.
2015-02-13T02:39:55Z pjb: Already, when you name a class, you automatically name a type with the same name!
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2015-02-13T02:40:20Z pjb: You can use package::symbol for all symbols that are interned.
2015-02-13T02:40:35Z pjb: If you use package:symbol, it only works if the symbol is exported from the package.
2015-02-13T02:40:42Z emaczen: pjb: I'm going for a Java analogy
2015-02-13T02:40:43Z pjb: Otherwise you get a read error.
2015-02-13T02:40:49Z pjb: emaczen: wrong strategy.
2015-02-13T02:41:00Z pjb: Try going for a Common Lisp analogy.
2015-02-13T02:41:06Z emaczen: pjb: Just for explanation sake
2015-02-13T02:41:19Z pjb: There's no notion of symbol in java.
2015-02-13T02:41:33Z emaczen: YEs
2015-02-13T02:41:43Z pjb: If you really want to go for a java analogy, the best you can do is to read the sources of ABCL.
2015-02-13T02:42:00Z Zhivago: What CL does here is probably the wrong thing.
2015-02-13T02:42:15Z Zhivago: You should be able to export variable names, or class names, rather than symbols.
2015-02-13T02:42:17Z emaczen: I think the question I am trying to ask is valid for any PL
2015-02-13T02:42:20Z pjb: I wouldn't say wrong.
2015-02-13T02:42:30Z pjb: Lisp is a low level programming language, made to write DSLs.
2015-02-13T02:42:35Z Zhivago: The question you're asking is invalid in CL, because of how symbols and packages work.
2015-02-13T02:42:49Z Zhivago: In CL, you export the symbol, not the variable name.
2015-02-13T02:42:59Z pjb: You could build such a system, using lisp.
2015-02-13T02:43:05Z emaczen: In Java you "import" classes -- the "equivalent" of this in CL looks like package exports and require/use
2015-02-13T02:43:05Z Zhivago: It's just that the symbol that was exported may be used to name a variable.
2015-02-13T02:43:22Z Zhivago: emaczen: Only if you do not understand what you're looking at.
2015-02-13T02:43:28Z pjb: emaczen: that's the point: it is not equivalent.
2015-02-13T02:43:48Z White_Flame: emaczen: you don't just import classes,but function names, variable names, class names, special named symbols to use in macro bodies, etc
2015-02-13T02:43:49Z pjb: emaczen: again, if you want a comparison, just have a look at the code ABCL must provide!
2015-02-13T02:43:56Z White_Flame: all via symbol
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2015-02-13T02:45:28Z emaczen: pjb: So the difference is that CL can export more than just classes right?
2015-02-13T02:45:38Z White_Flame: export/import is about symbols
2015-02-13T02:45:51Z White_Flame: CL uses symbols extensively to name various facilities
2015-02-13T02:45:58Z White_Flame: if you have the symbol, you can use the facility
2015-02-13T02:46:32Z pjb: emaczen: "export class"  is meaningless.
2015-02-13T02:46:38Z pjb: CL cannot do meaningless things.
2015-02-13T02:46:58Z emaczen: pjb: CL can export more than just symbols referring to classes
2015-02-13T02:47:31Z pjb: symbols accessible in a package can be marked as exported from that package, yes.
2015-02-13T02:49:11Z emaczen: pjb: So if I only exported symbols that name classes I could have something equivalent to Java imports?
2015-02-13T02:50:04Z Zhivago: Well, Java imports don't just import classes.
2015-02-13T02:50:05Z White_Flame: no
2015-02-13T02:50:13Z Zhivago: I suspect that you might understand java, either. :)
2015-02-13T02:50:15Z pjb: Nope, because only that symbol would be exported.  Nothing about the symbol used to name the slots, the accessors, the initargs, etc would be exported.
2015-02-13T02:50:16Z White_Flame: in Java, when you import a class, you can access all public features thereof
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2015-02-13T02:50:37Z pjb: There's no notion of public/protected/private in CL.
2015-02-13T02:50:40Z Zhivago: Plus you can import things that aren't classes.
2015-02-13T02:50:44Z White_Flame: in CL, if you import a class name, you still don't have visibility of all the related function names, slot names, etc
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2015-02-13T02:52:03Z pjb: (in-package "strange") (defun a () (delete-file "/**/*")) (defclass a () ()) (defmethod good ((a a)) (do-something-good)) (export '(a good)) (in-package :cl-user) (|strange|:a); oops.
2015-02-13T02:52:09Z emaczen: Ok, so how do you guys usually do this? Is your code filled with package:: or do you use/require other packages?
2015-02-13T02:52:33Z pjb: Modularity involves defining small interfaces.
2015-02-13T02:53:32Z pjb: Therefore you may define a package with a (relatively) small number of symbols exported and documented, and of those symbols are sufficiently unique, you may use that package without having to qualify each symbol occurence.
2015-02-13T02:53:39Z White_Flame: For library use, I tend to stick with package:name instead of :use'ing it
2015-02-13T02:54:04Z White_Flame: only for internal, tightly bound stuff do I tend to :use across packages
2015-02-13T02:54:41Z pjb: On the other hand, there's some level of hungarian going on, like: string-upcase, char-upcase.  If you write a package p, and all your public interface has names like p-something p-the-other, you may want to just name them something and the-other, export them,and use p:something p:the-other.
2015-02-13T02:54:59Z pjb: That said, since I like long package names, it'd rather use them :-)
2015-02-13T02:55:53Z pjb: One advantage of using package explicitely, rather than qualifying symbols, is that this is a pre-declaration: you only have to read the defpackage form to know all the packages that are used.  When you qualify symbols, you have to read the whole source to know all the packages used.
2015-02-13T02:56:31Z White_Flame: meh, that's what the .asd file is for :-P
2015-02-13T02:57:13Z pjb: For this reason, when I do that, I add a (declaim (declaration also-use-packages)) so I may: (declaim (also-use-packages "COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.HTML-GENERATOR.HTML"))  before the defpackage form, so I may learn about those package used thru qualification before processing the defpackage form.
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2015-02-13T02:57:52Z pjb: asdf didn't exist for a long time, and I could generate them automatically from those defpackage and als-use-packages declarations.
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2015-02-13T03:01:47Z emaczen: Ok cool
2015-02-13T03:02:00Z emaczen: I think I'm finally seeing my issue now
2015-02-13T03:02:12Z emaczen: I'm going to stick to explicitly qualifying symbols as well ;)
2015-02-13T03:02:25Z pjb: Good.
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2015-02-13T03:27:30Z emaczen: What are the use cases of declare forms besides performance?
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2015-02-13T03:28:47Z Bike: declare optimize safety?
2015-02-13T03:29:30Z emaczen: With declare forms, I am seeing CL as more than just a rapid prototyping language -- you can get performance in addition to a typed interface.
2015-02-13T03:29:43Z emaczen: The "typed interface" could be nice when you are working with other people
2015-02-13T03:30:05Z emaczen: Bike: What exactly do you mean?
2015-02-13T03:30:06Z Zhivago: Reminds me of javascript. :)
2015-02-13T03:30:20Z emaczen: Zhivago: Why?
2015-02-13T03:30:23Z Bike: using (declare (optimize safety)) to help debugging
2015-02-13T03:30:49Z Zhivago: emaczen: The reasons you just gave.
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2015-02-13T03:31:15Z emaczen: If my understanding is correct, this makes the compiler typecheck your code right?
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2015-02-13T03:31:25Z emaczen: typecheck at compile time*
2015-02-13T03:31:32Z White_Flame: it allows it to typecheck
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2015-02-13T03:31:55Z White_Flame: ie, gives it something to work with beyond type inference which may or may not be implemented
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2015-02-13T03:32:41Z emaczen: White_Flame: This is at compile time?
2015-02-13T03:32:48Z White_Flame: yes
2015-02-13T03:32:49Z pjb: emaczen: you can define your own declarations!
2015-02-13T03:32:58Z pjb: emaczen: it's like annotations in java.
2015-02-13T03:33:14Z emaczen: pjb: I'm not all that familiar with java :)
2015-02-13T03:33:31Z emaczen: pjb: I'm probably not all that familiar with anything :(
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2015-02-13T03:33:54Z Bike: nobody does that, though. and if they did it wouldn't be easy to extract.
2015-02-13T03:34:13Z pjb: What do you mean?
2015-02-13T03:34:33Z emaczen: pjb: Me?
2015-02-13T03:34:41Z pjb: No.
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2015-02-13T03:34:44Z pjb: Bike: what do you mean by "that"?
2015-02-13T03:34:54Z Bike: defining their own declarations.
2015-02-13T03:35:07Z pjb: I do that all the time.  And there's no point of "extracting" them!
2015-02-13T03:35:15Z Bike: what do you use them for, then?
2015-02-13T03:35:19Z pjb: See just above my also-use-package.
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2015-02-13T03:36:13Z pjb: I also have a stepper declaration used by cl-stepper.
2015-02-13T03:36:18Z Bike: well, "extract" referred to your generating things from the top level declaims.
2015-02-13T03:36:21Z Bike: do you have any non toplevel ones?
2015-02-13T03:36:27Z pillton: I have used my own declaration once. http://markcox80.github.io/lisp-executable/#sec-4-1-2
2015-02-13T03:36:35Z pjb: stepper is a non-toplevel one.
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2015-02-13T03:37:15Z pjb: (declare (stepper disable)) prevents the stepper to instrument a body of code.
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2015-02-13T03:37:56Z Bike: i stand corrected.
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2015-02-13T03:38:09Z emaczen: So what is the difference between a staticly, inferred-typed language (e.g. Haskell, Scala, ML) and Common Lisp? If My understanding is correct, with CL you can just choose when to use the static type checking with declarations, whereas in the other languages mentioned you are forced to abide by the rules of static type checking.
2015-02-13T03:38:30Z pjb: Yes.
2015-02-13T03:38:35Z Bike: haskell is statically typed, you just don't have to write the types everywhere. totally different.
2015-02-13T03:38:55Z Bike: well, sorta. the ins and outs of ghc make me wonder.
2015-02-13T03:39:08Z Bike: stepper has its own program parser stuff, yeah?
2015-02-13T03:39:19Z pjb: Yes.
2015-02-13T03:39:34Z emaczen: pbj: What exactly are you "Yessing"?
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2015-02-13T03:39:41Z pjb: That's the point of sexps in list: to be able to write tools of all kinds reading and processing the sources.
2015-02-13T03:39:58Z Bike: yes, well, it's pretty rare for anybody to actually do it.
2015-02-13T03:39:58Z pjb: emaczen: with CL you can just choose when to use the static type checking with declarations, whereas in the other languages mentioned you are forced to abide by the rules of static type checking.
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2015-02-13T03:40:22Z pjb: Bike: that's the only good way to program.
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2015-02-13T03:40:38Z pjb: Bike: Alan Kay "Programming and Scaling" 2011 http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/
2015-02-13T03:40:39Z pjb:  
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2015-02-13T03:41:05Z emaczen: pjb: Sweet! My understanding is correct then.
2015-02-13T03:41:30Z emaczen: pjb: IMO it is very sad that CL isn't more popular ... :(
2015-02-13T03:41:33Z Bike: darn, no transcript
2015-02-13T03:41:38Z emaczen: Given these features we are talkinga bout
2015-02-13T03:41:54Z Bike: don't worry, gradual typing is getting popular in javascript or something
2015-02-13T03:42:01Z pjb: Bike: also on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZmcmdsoAXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UOmItPa4iA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPavndhYxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9xLi0iJg1g you can use the subtitle feature there.
2015-02-13T03:42:02Z pjb:  
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2015-02-13T03:42:38Z Bike: pillton: by the way, you were going to send me a pull request, yeah? how's that going? i ask mostly because i want to make sure i don't miss it
2015-02-13T03:43:01Z emaczen: Bike: So that is what Zhivago, said it reminds him of javascript?
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2015-02-13T03:43:35Z Bike: i have no idea why zhivago does the things he does.
2015-02-13T03:44:05Z pillton: Bike: You haven't missed anything. I haven't started yet.
2015-02-13T03:44:09Z emaczen: Well he probably means the same thing you are saying given that the topic was the same.
2015-02-13T03:44:17Z Bike: pillton: aight.
2015-02-13T03:44:18Z emaczen: And his statement was the same
2015-02-13T03:44:49Z pillton: Bike: I have been working on something else. When I finish that I will start the patch for introspect-environment.
2015-02-13T03:44:55Z emaczen: Bike and pilton: What are you guys working on?
2015-02-13T03:45:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: It would be nice if type inference was a compiler warning.
2015-02-13T03:45:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: er, gave them
2015-02-13T03:45:26Z Bike: pillton: not like there's any rush, lol
2015-02-13T03:45:40Z Bike: emaczen: https://github.com/Bike/introspect-environment
2015-02-13T03:46:39Z pillton: Bike: Well, I need to get that patch done so I can do the thing after that. :)
2015-02-13T03:47:04Z Bike: pillton had a similar project but hadn't heard about mine, so they offered to patch mine to improve it.
2015-02-13T03:47:58Z emaczen: Bike: So I asked the right question for you guys :)
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2015-02-13T03:53:12Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-02-13T03:53:20Z emaczen: morning beach!
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2015-02-13T03:53:51Z pillton: Good morning beach.
2015-02-13T03:53:58Z pillton: I still haven't read your paper! Sorry.
2015-02-13T03:54:15Z beach: pillton: No obligation.
2015-02-13T03:54:32Z pillton doubts he will be able to contribute much anyhow.
2015-02-13T03:55:15Z beach: pillton: I think I have had enough feedback for submission.  The referees will do the rest.  Read it if you want to, otherwise you can skip it.
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2015-02-13T04:04:46Z beach: drmeister: I saw your mail.  Congratulations to finding and fixing the bug.
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2015-02-13T04:08:29Z emaczen: So I have a function that takes two arguments, how can I turn this into a function that takes one argument?
2015-02-13T04:08:43Z pjb: (lambda (x) (f x 0))
2015-02-13T04:08:51Z emaczen: emaczen: I'm finding this use case anonmyously
2015-02-13T04:09:18Z pjb: You're not making any sense.
2015-02-13T04:09:31Z beach: emaczen: It depends on the way you want to "turn it".  Ignore the second argument?  Ignore the first argument?  Take the two arguments as a sinle one in a list?  Something else?
2015-02-13T04:10:40Z emaczen: (let ((sep #\,)) (my-function li sep))
2015-02-13T04:10:53Z emaczen: ^^ that is my example which does a lot better than words for me
2015-02-13T04:11:24Z pjb: The free variable is li.
2015-02-13T04:11:26Z pjb: (lambda (li) (let ((sep #\,)) (my-function li sep)))
2015-02-13T04:11:30Z beach: (let ((sep #\,)) (defun new-function (li) (my-function li sep)))
2015-02-13T04:12:16Z emaczen: thanks guys, when I find more use cases I can probably generalize this pretty easily
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2015-02-13T04:12:40Z pjb: Wouldn't you rather be interested in learning lisp programming?
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2015-02-13T04:12:51Z pjb: emaczen: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
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2015-02-13T04:14:13Z beach: emaczen: You can generalize it like this: (defun specialize (sep) (lambda (li) (my-function li sep)))  The function specialize takes a separator and returns a function with one argument that calls my-function with that argument and the separator.
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2015-02-13T04:15:23Z pjb: or (alexandria:rcurry (function my-function) sep)
2015-02-13T04:15:55Z emaczen: pjb: Isn't this all part of learning lisp programming? Am I asking questions that are not appropriate here?
2015-02-13T04:16:27Z pjb: The way you're asking questions makes me thing you don't learn.
2015-02-13T04:17:14Z pjb: You're just querying tricks to perform your task.  (and perhaps, hopefully, you might be able to generalize later, but if not you will just keep asking for tricks).
2015-02-13T04:17:15Z emaczen: What exactly do you mean? I ask a lot of the same types of questions?
2015-02-13T04:17:25Z emaczen: Ahhh
2015-02-13T04:17:57Z pjb: Learning would lead you to know the axioms and the rules, and to infer the tricks by yourself.
2015-02-13T04:18:47Z beach: emaczen: You may not realize this, but pjb is definitely trying to help you learn the fundamentals of Common Lisp, so that you can generalize yourself. :)
2015-02-13T04:19:27Z emaczen: Yeah, he was helping me a lot earlier with vocabulary.
2015-02-13T04:19:42Z beach: I am glad you see it that way.
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2015-02-13T04:21:18Z emaczen: pjb: Yes, I agree. I don't really really know where the line is between learning "by doing" and learning by reading
2015-02-13T04:21:31Z emaczen: I was reading a bunch of ANSI common lisp by paul graham
2015-02-13T04:21:49Z beach: It's a decent book.
2015-02-13T04:22:05Z beach: Paul Graham has a few issues with Common Lisp, so his style is not quite idiomatic.
2015-02-13T04:22:07Z emaczen: Now that I have read what can be done, I am trying to implement some things that I found interesting and build as much from scratch as possible
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2015-02-13T04:22:34Z emaczen: I find*
2015-02-13T04:24:32Z beach: Also, we all learn in different ways.  I personally can't stand the "tutorial style" for learning a programming language, i.e., "see, you can do this", "see, you can do this, too",  "and this". ...  I need the terminology up front and the semantics explained in terms of that terminology.
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2015-02-13T04:25:48Z emaczen: Yeah that's probably not how I do it :)
2015-02-13T04:26:04Z emaczen: I think I lot to draw connections from what I already know and then experiment
2015-02-13T04:26:15Z beach: ... but most people would probably consider this preference of mine as an occupational disease.
2015-02-13T04:26:31Z pjb: you're not the only one with it then.
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2015-02-13T04:26:45Z pjb: emaczen: then you should like reading more in clhs.
2015-02-13T04:26:49Z beach: pjb: Of course not.  It is a common one. :)
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2015-02-13T04:29:07Z emaczen: pjb: Yeah, I've got w3m working through slime with C-c C-d h.
2015-02-13T04:29:34Z beach: emaczen: The potential problem with your way is that you might build an incorrect mental model of how things work.  This model will work for a while, until it breaks down and you have no idea what your program is doing because it no longer corresponds to your model.
2015-02-13T04:29:56Z emaczen: beach: good point
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2015-02-13T04:31:01Z emaczen: How does one sit down in front of a big language like CL and say I am going to absorb it all?
2015-02-13T04:31:10Z pjb: It's not that big.
2015-02-13T04:31:15Z beach: emaczen: You don't.
2015-02-13T04:31:36Z emaczen: pjb: The original scheme standard is 6 pages right?
2015-02-13T04:31:52Z emaczen: Isn't Common Lisp like 100 pages?
2015-02-13T04:31:56Z pjb: Yes, small. r5rs is 50 pages.
2015-02-13T04:32:00Z beach: More like 1000.
2015-02-13T04:32:00Z pjb: CLHS is 1182 pages.
2015-02-13T04:32:03Z loke: emaczen: Common Lisp is 900 pages or so.
2015-02-13T04:32:07Z emaczen: ahaha
2015-02-13T04:32:09Z Zhivago: Scheme was designed. CL was accreted.
2015-02-13T04:32:24Z Bike: how about "negotitated"
2015-02-13T04:32:24Z pjb: But that's small compared to Java.  Android has 6000 classes and 300000 methods!
2015-02-13T04:32:40Z Zhivago: What you need to understand is that CL was produced as a compatibility layer between a bunch of different lisp dialects.
2015-02-13T04:32:42Z loke: emaczen: But that's a very bad comparison to make. You can build CL doen to a few pages too, and it'll be as useful as basic Scheme, too (i.e. not much)
2015-02-13T04:33:06Z Zhivago: So it has a lot of junk and a lot of stuff to help implementors avoid thinking hard.
2015-02-13T04:33:41Z loke: Zhivago: But it's OUT junk... (sneering angrily at Java)
2015-02-13T04:33:46Z loke: s/OUT/OUR/
2015-02-13T04:34:31Z beach: loke: Your typing skills are substandard today.  What happened? :)
2015-02-13T04:34:41Z loke: beach: It's like that sometimes.
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2015-02-13T04:35:04Z Zhivago: svref, aref, schar, sbit, etc.
2015-02-13T04:35:05Z loke: beach: If you haven't seen me make lots of such errors, you haven't seen me type much.
2015-02-13T04:35:23Z beach: loke: I'll pass.  Thanks.
2015-02-13T04:35:47Z Zhivago: Although, surprisingly, there is no vref. :)
2015-02-13T04:36:11Z Zhivago: A lot of the library is just specialized functions to avoid needing type inference.
2015-02-13T04:36:33Z Zhivago: Or to pay attention to declarations.
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2015-02-13T04:43:10Z beach: emaczen: I have a friend who once (a long time ago) wrote a quick introduction to Emacs, meant for undergraduates.  It was incredibly complicated and hard to follow, because she had not read the Emacs terminology and buffer model (A newline is a character, point is between two characters, etc).
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2015-02-13T04:43:53Z Bike: ugh, i wonder if i'm doing that with version control at work...
2015-02-13T04:44:32Z emaczen: beach: Yep, sounds like me...
2015-02-13T04:44:35Z beach: Since I am on that subject, this trend of generating documentation from docstrings is often catastrophic, because it discourages the communication of a coherent mental model of how the software works.
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2015-02-13T04:44:49Z pillton: beach: Thank you!
2015-02-13T04:45:14Z beach: pillton: For what?  Allowing you to skip reading the paper? :)
2015-02-13T04:45:36Z pillton: No. The generating documentation from docstrings.
2015-02-13T04:45:43Z beach: Ah.  OK.
2015-02-13T04:45:53Z emaczen: Who/what is generating documentation for docstrings? Python?
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2015-02-13T04:46:12Z Bike: from docstrings. it's common. stuff like doxygen
2015-02-13T04:46:27Z emaczen: is doxygen c++?
2015-02-13T04:46:31Z beach: Lots of people.  Every month or so, there is someone here asking for such a system for Common Lisp.  Every few months someone shows up here saying he or she has written such a system.
2015-02-13T04:46:43Z Bike: yes. i think other languages have doxygen links, and similar things.
2015-02-13T04:47:12Z beach: Isn't Javadoc something similar to Doxygen?
2015-02-13T04:47:15Z Bike: i like gigamonkey's manifest, though. maybe not as documentation so much as a... manifest, i guess
2015-02-13T04:47:47Z beach: Bike: Remind me of his manifest!
2015-02-13T04:48:15Z Bike: it starts a local html server that serves up the docstrings for everything in the running lisp as a navigable website.
2015-02-13T04:48:34Z Bike: so you can click the sb-c package and see what documentation is in there, bla bla bla.
2015-02-13T04:48:48Z pillton: Imagine the hyperspec if it only contained "The X Dictionary" chapters. It would be mostly useless.
2015-02-13T04:48:52Z pjb: Not only the functions are documented.  You can also attach general information to packages for example.
2015-02-13T04:49:22Z beach: Bike: I see.  I have nothing against docstrings.  My problem is when docstrings are all there is.
2015-02-13T04:49:30Z Bike: yeah, i understand.
2015-02-13T04:49:31Z beach: .. what pillton says.
2015-02-13T04:49:54Z pjb: Also, I once wrote a document macro that would let you insert docstrings about anywhere in source files.   So allowing some kind of literal programming (with ") and ("document parentheses for the program :-)
2015-02-13T04:50:42Z pjb: beach: you wouldn't be against literate programming?
2015-02-13T04:51:00Z Bike: literate programming is more than docstrings ain't it
2015-02-13T04:51:28Z beach: pjb: I have mixed feelings about it.  I think it is great for understanding a program, but I think it is a disaster for maintaining the code.
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2015-02-13T04:51:50Z pjb: I would agree if one would argue that the problem is that there are comments.  Perhaps comments should be turned into docstrings, so they're collectable into a documentation.
2015-02-13T04:52:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: "Since I am on that subject, this trend of generating documentation from docstrings is often catastrophic, because it discourages the communication of a coherent mental model of how the software works." You mean just writing a description of the architecture that walks through how the program would handle some data?
2015-02-13T04:52:31Z pjb: beach: well, wrt maintaining the code, the problem may be that we need multidimensional tracking.
2015-02-13T04:53:49Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: That would depend on the program.  I want a "mental model" (that can be different from how the program actually works, but that is always coherent) of the program.
2015-02-13T04:53:50Z pjb: At minima, we have various project phases (eg. specifications, analysis, design, code, testing, user documentation) and elements have to be tracked along this chain.  Either you put everything in a single literate document, and extract the various phase documents from this single source, or you need a more complex system to track elements in parallel files.
2015-02-13T04:54:30Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: But I suspect that people who are used to only writing scattered docstrings also don't see the importance of the program actually *allowing* such a mental model.
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2015-02-13T04:56:00Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Let me take Emacs as an example again.  The buffer model of Emacs is that it is a long sequence of objects (let's say characters to simplify).  Newline is a character too in this model.  Point is between two characters, or at the beginning or at the end of the buffer.
2015-02-13T04:56:19Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Now imagine implementing the Emacs buffer as a sequence of lines.
2015-02-13T04:56:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: That sounds bad.
2015-02-13T04:56:48Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: There is nothing in the implementation that suggests the model, and in fact the code will have to work a bit hard to make the model a good one.
2015-02-13T04:57:01Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Now imagine communicating only the code.
2015-02-13T04:57:12Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: No, that is very good in fact.
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2015-02-13T04:58:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: I usually just avoid using code that takes over the control of the program.
2015-02-13T04:58:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: When I can.
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2015-02-13T04:58:52Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Both the model and the implementation are very good.  The model is good because it is very simple and it explains what happens when you do C-f at the end of a line (for example).  The implementation is good because it is much more efficient than implementing the buffer as a long sequence.
2015-02-13T04:58:57Z pillton: pjb: I like the parallel files idea.
2015-02-13T04:59:24Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: What do you mean by "code that takes over ..."?
2015-02-13T04:59:30Z pjb: pillton: actually, you'd want something more like a database rather.
2015-02-13T04:59:44Z pillton: To me the docstrings should be generated from the database, not the database generated from the docstrings.
2015-02-13T04:59:44Z pjb: this could be handled by emacs.
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2015-02-13T05:00:03Z pjb: We already have M-.  C-x C-f would find toplevel sexps (definitions) instead of files.
2015-02-13T05:00:13Z pillton: pjb: Yes. I agree.
2015-02-13T05:00:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: beach, I prefer to include/import/require a file instead of running a "build new project tool" that gives me a nest of directories and special places to put my code.
2015-02-13T05:00:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: libraries instead of frameworks
2015-02-13T05:00:53Z pjb: In such a system, you may use declarations and docstrings in the editing buffer, and you may split them out to different planes in the database.
2015-02-13T05:01:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm wondering if I dislike frameworks because docstring only documentaion doesn't work at all for them.
2015-02-13T05:02:38Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: That should make you dislike docstring-only documentation.  Not frameworks.
2015-02-13T05:03:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: It should.
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2015-02-13T05:03:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: I probably also dislike the overhead.
2015-02-13T05:03:52Z emaczen: Is library vs framework similar to configuration vs convention?
2015-02-13T05:04:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: The overhead required to learn it I mena.
2015-02-13T05:04:34Z beach: Though perhaps I am part of a disappearing type of learner.  These days when many people seem to have the attention span of a gnat, context-free twitter-length documentation snippets seem to be the way to go.
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2015-02-13T05:06:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: emaczen, I don't think so. When I think of a framework, I imagine something that has its own event loop and takes over the application, but when I think of a library, I think of just some code I can use.
2015-02-13T05:06:55Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: that definition of framework wouldn't cover a lot of CL software though.
2015-02-13T05:07:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: beach, I like it when the way things work is explained in a useful way. If more documentation had bits like the pages in here ( http://aosabook.org/en/index.html ) I'd be happier.
2015-02-13T05:07:55Z drmeister: beach: Hi - thanks
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2015-02-13T05:08:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: loke, I guess that's +2 for common lisp then. :)
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2015-02-13T05:08:39Z beach: drmeister: So how is the progress?
2015-02-13T05:09:30Z drmeister: I'm generating hoisted ASTs and HIR from those hoisted ASTs.   I'm looking forward to your updates re: fdefinition and symbol-value.
2015-02-13T05:10:12Z beach: drmeister: Are you expecting more than I did already?
2015-02-13T05:10:22Z drmeister: Did you see my new scheme - I'm going to pass two vectors, one of symbols for fdefinition/symbol-value and another of values
2015-02-13T05:10:37Z beach: I didn't see that.
2015-02-13T05:10:57Z drmeister: Did you convert fdefinition and symbol-value so that they have load-time-values for their symbols that can be hoisted?
2015-02-13T05:11:06Z beach: I thought I did.
2015-02-13T05:11:25Z beach: Maybe I just dreamed about doing it. :)
2015-02-13T05:11:29Z drmeister: Oh - I didn't realize - I'll pull the latest version and try it out.
2015-02-13T05:11:49Z beach: drmeister: As I said, there may be thing that aren't working yet.
2015-02-13T05:12:04Z beach: drmeister: It took a lot more time than I had anticipated.
2015-02-13T05:12:16Z drmeister: Yup, new changes that I haven't seen.
2015-02-13T05:12:17Z beach: .. and I *really* need to work on my papers.
2015-02-13T05:12:45Z drmeister: beach: Do your thing at your pace.  Don't feel that I'm going to loose interest or something.
2015-02-13T05:12:55Z beach: OK, good.
2015-02-13T05:13:08Z beach needs to go take his bread out of the oven before it burns.
2015-02-13T05:13:12Z drmeister: I keep saying I'm looking forward ... but you work at your pace.
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2015-02-13T05:13:31Z emaczen: night
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2015-02-13T05:13:49Z drmeister: I've got a DOD grant proposal and two papers I should be working on as well.
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2015-02-13T05:20:53Z beach: drmeister: What's the deadline?
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2015-02-13T05:33:51Z beach: minion: memo for Shinmera: Thanks for the offer of providing a binary Clasp for me.  However, I didn't express myself very well.  By "environment that looks like Clasp" I meant a SICL first-class global environment inside SBCL that has the Clasp macro definitions and such. :)
2015-02-13T05:33:51Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Shinmera when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-02-13T07:13:42Z akkad: are there any pgp implementations in cl?
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2015-02-13T07:14:11Z zacts: what is cl?
2015-02-13T07:14:15Z zacts: oh
2015-02-13T07:14:18Z zacts: I'm on #lisp
2015-02-13T07:14:33Z zacts: cool akkad I'm also curious too
2015-02-13T07:14:45Z H4ns: no.
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2015-02-13T07:15:20Z H4ns: how many differen pgp implementations are there anyway?
2015-02-13T07:15:25Z loke: H4ns: two
2015-02-13T07:15:35Z H4ns: loke: that was my guess, but i was not sure.
2015-02-13T07:15:45Z loke: I certainly never heard about any other.
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2015-02-13T07:19:19Z H4ns: i find it a bit disturbing to put trust on a technology that is so hard to implement, actually.
2015-02-13T07:20:02Z loke: H4ns: I read the Cryptography Engineering book, and now I realise that it's hard to implement because it's very difficult to do right.
2015-02-13T07:20:46Z H4ns: loke: which does not make it any better.  if it is difficult to do it right, it is also difficult to verify that it is done right.
2015-02-13T07:21:16Z H4ns: but who am i to judge.  crypto will save us all, i hear
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2015-02-13T07:23:53Z jackdaniel: best way to avoid decrypting messages is not to pass them through sniffing networks
2015-02-13T07:24:05Z jackdaniel: ergo, distributed networks are safer, centralized are more prone to be sniffed
2015-02-13T07:24:41Z jackdaniel: ergo, facebook/google aren't safest communication channels, even when encrypted
2015-02-13T07:24:49Z H4ns: no, really?
2015-02-13T07:24:53Z jackdaniel: ,þ
2015-02-13T07:25:10Z zacts: jackdaniel: do you mean like distributed dns?
2015-02-13T07:25:12Z loke: jackdaniel: That argument is a fallacy though. Your data should be secured in such a way as you don't have to reply on the transport having any specific properties at all.
2015-02-13T07:25:36Z jackdaniel: loke: but when you put your trust only on encryption, it's a single point of failure
2015-02-13T07:25:56Z loke: You secure data for a given recipient. What you have to understand is that when using, say, Facebook, then Facebook is the recipient of the data, not the person with whom you are communicating.
2015-02-13T07:26:25Z jackdaniel: there is always end-to-end encryption
2015-02-13T07:26:30Z loke: jackdaniel: exactly.
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2015-02-13T07:27:00Z jackdaniel: i'd say - distributed protocols (like jabber, but w/o all this bloat), with e2e encryption
2015-02-13T07:27:14Z H4ns: there is always end-to-end encryption when you can trust the maths, the implementation and the security of both endpoints.
2015-02-13T07:27:20Z loke: When using end-to-end encryption, then the recipient is the other party in the conversaion, and it shouldn't matter if you send the message directly to him using email or ehwether you go through Facebook (metadata leakage nonwithstanding)
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2015-02-13T07:29:39Z jackdaniel: loke: let's say, Alice and Bob are in Switzerland, while Ed is in US. Let's assume, that their implementation is buggy, so Ed can decypher it. Ed live in US, and all sniff channels he have are US channels. If Alice and Bob communicate via gmail, they are evesedropped by Ed, but when they use local mail server ,they're not
2015-02-13T07:30:21Z loke: jackdaniel: You are talking about something completely different compared to what I am talking about.
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2015-02-13T07:31:18Z H4ns: jackdaniel: and, as you are not able to actually verify where your data has gone, your argument is none.
2015-02-13T07:31:22Z jackdaniel: my point is, encryption is only one of pieces to protect your communication, which is especially prone to errors
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2015-02-13T07:35:33Z H4ns: oh boy, i'm right now trying to merge two gpg key rings and it is hell.  how is a normal person expected to put any trust in this stuff?
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2015-02-13T07:45:31Z Shinmera: Good morning, #lisp
2015-02-13T07:45:31Z minion: Shinmera, memo from beach: Thanks for the offer of providing a binary Clasp for me.  However, I didn't express myself very well.  By "environment that looks like Clasp" I meant a SICL first-class global environment inside SBCL that has the Clasp macro definitions and such. :)
2015-02-13T07:47:47Z akkad: netpgp
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2015-02-13T07:48:23Z akkad: don't pass if you don't want an interception
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2015-02-13T07:53:32Z akkad: was thinking worse case cl-ffi to libnetpgp
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2015-02-13T07:56:15Z akkad: H4ns: you mean trust gpg encrypted files over scp transferred ones?
2015-02-13T07:59:14Z H4ns: akkad: no, trust digital encryption infrastructure in general beyond the "looks like gibberish, should be good enough so my neighbor can't see i'm watching porn" level
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2015-02-13T11:18:03Z dim: H4ns: the people behind https://www.caliopen.org/ are working quite hard to provide such a solution, idk yet about their success in doing so
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2015-02-13T12:33:19Z quazimodo: hrm
2015-02-13T12:33:23Z quazimodo: my emacs lisp got stupid
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2015-02-13T12:59:14Z nowhere_man: Hi all
2015-02-13T12:59:26Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-02-13T12:59:32Z nowhere_man: I have a strange CLOS issue:
2015-02-13T13:00:10Z nowhere_man: I've written a method for MAKE-INSTANCE with a specializer (class (eql foobar))
2015-02-13T13:00:49Z nowhere_man: that instead of creating an instance of foobar, creates an instance of foobar/ele, which is a descendant created with Elephant
2015-02-13T13:01:18Z nowhere_man: in the REPL, this works, I do (make-instance 'foobar) and I get #<FOOBAR/ELE ...>
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2015-02-13T13:01:45Z nowhere_man: but when my code is called by my web application, this make-instance method is not used
2015-02-13T13:02:33Z H4ns: it is a bit unusual to define methods on make-instance for that purpose.  most people use something like make-foobar instead.
2015-02-13T13:02:48Z H4ns: are you sure that your web application uses the right 'foobar symbol?
2015-02-13T13:03:01Z nowhere_man: yes
2015-02-13T13:03:17Z nowhere_man: I'll try the make-foobar approach, though
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2015-02-13T13:04:24Z H4ns: i don't really see a reason why a make-instance method would not work, though.
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2015-02-13T13:05:19Z Xach: I vaguely recall some discussion that it's not proper to return an instance of something other than the class given. Not the details, sadly.
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2015-02-13T13:09:02Z jdz: there's also CHANGE-CLASS (which i've used at some point to do something similar)
2015-02-13T13:09:25Z H4ns: change-class is a big hammer
2015-02-13T13:09:40Z jdz: that works
2015-02-13T13:10:11Z H4ns: just saying.  we were kind of surprised how bad it performed in practice when we created a few million objects and then changed their class after we've read some more of the input.
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2015-02-13T13:10:14Z jdz: but yes, if one can know the exact class they'll want then it is "suboptimal"
2015-02-13T13:11:27Z jdz: H4ns: it couldn't be slower than Ruby now could it?
2015-02-13T13:11:43Z H4ns: well.  we're not aiming to beat the easy targets
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2015-02-13T13:33:44Z JuanDaugherty: anybody know where a flavors pkg sources can be gotten (besides allegro)?
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2015-02-13T13:47:47Z JuanDaugherty: i guess a flavors to modern os conversion is reasonably simple/straightforward
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2015-02-13T14:08:03Z Xach: Can you please send a test email to release@quicklisp.org?
2015-02-13T14:11:08Z Xach: thanks!
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2015-02-13T14:14:31Z moore33: Xach: What, everybody?!
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2015-02-13T14:15:47Z Xach: can't hurt
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2015-02-13T14:16:09Z Xach: I wonder if anyone going to ELS uses PGP and would be willing to sign my Quicklisp PGP key.
2015-02-13T14:17:20Z JuanDaugherty: 1st failed due to typo in domain.
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2015-02-13T14:23:11Z nowhere_man: Xach: maybe you could also use https://keybase.io/ or something similar
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2015-02-13T14:37:08Z Xach: I'll look into that.
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2015-02-13T14:38:13Z jackdaniel: nice drawnings on this keybase
2015-02-13T14:38:35Z dlowe: keybase.io is pretty great but I haven't had the problem it aims to solve
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2015-02-13T14:54:16Z jdz: i participated in PGP key signing at ECLM 2005 (i think that's the one in Amsterdam), but i'm not sure i'd still be able to dig it up; and the email i used does not work anyway
2015-02-13T14:55:48Z jdz: also the UI of gpg has not helped with any of that
2015-02-13T14:55:50Z Shinmera: Xach: If you need an invite, I still have some left.
2015-02-13T14:57:06Z Xach: I seem to need one to get in promptly.
2015-02-13T14:57:10Z Xach: I will look into it more later, though.
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2015-02-13T15:09:15Z dlowe: I'm out of invites :(
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2015-02-13T16:14:39Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2015-02-13T16:28:24Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-02-13T16:29:00Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-02-13T16:29:08Z quazimodo: hullo
2015-02-13T16:29:10Z quazimodo: pjb: prod
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2015-02-13T16:32:57Z beach: nyef: What are you working on these days?
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2015-02-13T16:33:56Z nyef: A bit of SBCL hacking, a bit of Linux hacking, possibly some more poking about with Mezzano.
2015-02-13T16:34:39Z beach: Did you get your Linux system to work?
2015-02-13T16:35:59Z nyef: It's still at the point where I know that I can make it work if necessary, but I'm still trying to figure out how to get DMA to work using direct addresses rather than mapped addresses.
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2015-02-13T16:51:38Z beach: nyef: No plans to take up NQ-CLIM again?
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2015-02-13T17:00:15Z nyef: beach: Yes, but not necessarily this weekend.
2015-02-13T17:00:46Z beach: Sure.  I am just interested in seeing any progress.
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2015-02-13T17:09:40Z a20150212: beach: is NQ-CLIM a new implementation of CLIM , ala McCLIM ?
2015-02-13T17:10:03Z beach: a20150212: It is nyef's "Not Quite" CLIM.
2015-02-13T17:10:39Z nyef: a20150212: With the caveat that there are no guarantees of CLIM compatibility for any part of it. I'm using CLIM as a model (fairly closely, in fact), but there are parts of CLIM that I will cheerfully ignore.
2015-02-13T17:11:05Z a20150212: I guess the next question is what makes it "NQ"
2015-02-13T17:11:27Z nyef: A question which I've JUST answered. d-:
2015-02-13T17:11:42Z a20150212: ahh, I see, I guess it has capabilities or featuers (CLIM) that are either no longer needed and/or of little use to you, so those can be ignored?
2015-02-13T17:11:53Z a20150212: indeed. thanks
2015-02-13T17:12:43Z nyef: It's not yet at the point where application frames "work". Or even stream panes.
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2015-02-13T17:21:09Z schjetne: beach: speaking of which, what's the status for Climatis?
2015-02-13T17:21:57Z beach: schjetne: I am not working on it at the moment.  You can consider the output part as done and the input part yet to finish.
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2015-02-13T17:24:09Z beach: schjetne: I don't seem to be very good at multitasking.  Otherwise, I would work on several things in parallel.
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2015-02-13T17:27:06Z schjetne: beach: One can't really complain when looking at the commit log for SICL. That stuff is beyond my skill level, though I've been curious about compilers for quite some time
2015-02-13T17:28:03Z beach: True, it's hard to do more.  At least for me.
2015-02-13T17:30:22Z schjetne: I've had the idea of trying to implement Forth on 68k for a while, I thought that might be both a fun and educational project, to get a feel for compilation and low-level stuff.
2015-02-13T17:30:24Z beach: schjetne: Skills can be acquired, of course.  Compiler stuff is not rocket science.
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2015-02-13T17:31:42Z beach: Sure, Forth should be a reasonable size to deal with.
2015-02-13T17:32:16Z nyef: A simple ITC Forth system should be quite doable, but it won't teach you very much about how a modern optimizing compiler works.
2015-02-13T17:32:46Z schjetne: About to do a release at work, and then I need to complete Eclastic, my library for Elasticsearch, hopefully I'll get to it soon.
2015-02-13T17:32:56Z a20150212: beach: SICL sounds like a great new effort. Question for you
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2015-02-13T17:33:38Z beach: a20150212: I am listening.
2015-02-13T17:33:42Z a20150212: I read a blog post by Zach where he talked about a past proposal to design a lisp designed in layers or colors and that such a design would allow lots of more flexibility
2015-02-13T17:34:07Z a20150212: (I cannot find the URL at this time, but I will keep searching for it), is SICL similar in effort / design ?
2015-02-13T17:34:33Z beach: I can't say I have read that proposal, so I don't quite know.
2015-02-13T17:34:35Z Xach: http://xach.livejournal.com/319717.html has a summary and a link to the original material
2015-02-13T17:34:59Z a20150212: bingo
2015-02-13T17:35:07Z a20150212: Thanks Xach
2015-02-13T17:35:44Z beach: a20150212: Oh, that document talks more about the standardization process.
2015-02-13T17:36:03Z beach: I have no ambition to change the standard with SICL.
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2015-02-13T17:37:20Z a20150212: Understood, most likely I misunderstood the original content, I will go read some more. Thanks.
2015-02-13T17:37:52Z a20150212: nevertheless SICL is an interesting project. I will keep an eye out. Thanks.
2015-02-13T17:38:03Z beach: a20150212: Thanks.
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2015-02-13T17:39:15Z beach: a20150212: I think there are a few contributions with SICL, or there will be: One is that I have a few algorithms that will make things faster, such as processing list elements from the end, and improved CLOS dispatch.  Another is that I hope the code will be simpler because of a better bootstrapping process.
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2015-02-13T17:45:56Z beach: Dinner.  I might be back later.
2015-02-13T17:50:19Z drmeister: beach: Are you still on?
2015-02-13T17:50:41Z drmeister: Dargh!
2015-02-13T17:51:22Z Fade: this channel seems particularly affected by the timezone game.
2015-02-13T17:52:10Z drmeister: When you get back:  I'm seeing some HIR instructions with two predecessors that are duplicate WRITE-CELL-INSTRUCTIONs.  It's playing merry hell with basic block assignment.
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2015-02-13T18:33:12Z luis: anyone know of a k-means clustering implementation for CL?
2015-02-13T18:35:18Z _death: I've a few toy implementations
2015-02-13T18:36:50Z luis: send them my way will you? :)
2015-02-13T18:39:03Z LiamH: luis: Any plans for CFFI's 10th birthday upcoming?
2015-02-13T18:39:54Z Xach: oh lord
2015-02-13T18:40:00Z Xach: party at els!
2015-02-13T18:40:11Z _death: luis: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145755 just hacjks
2015-02-13T18:40:16Z _death: *hacks.. and I'm off
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2015-02-13T18:41:10Z LiamH: Xach: els?
2015-02-13T18:42:11Z luis: 10th birthday? God, I'm getting old. :)
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2015-02-13T18:42:37Z luis: _death: thanks!
2015-02-13T18:42:46Z LiamH: First commit in the repo is Tue 07 Jun 2005 by jbielman.
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2015-02-13T18:45:23Z LiamH: I was wondering if it would be a good time to lose (or increment) the "0." in the release number.
2015-02-13T18:47:26Z luis: Yes, indeed. Sounds like a good opportunity to release version 1.0
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2015-02-13T18:50:06Z LiamH looks forward to CFFI 1.0, to be released on June 7.
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2015-02-13T18:50:18Z luis: yeah, sounds like a plan :)
2015-02-13T18:52:25Z Xach: LiamH: European Lisp Shindig, London, April!
2015-02-13T18:52:35Z luis marks his calendar
2015-02-13T18:52:36Z Xach is speaking about Quicklisp
2015-02-13T18:53:08Z LiamH: Xach: Ah, won't be there, sorry I will miss it.
2015-02-13T18:56:28Z Xach: sneak over during a lunch break!
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2015-02-13T19:09:46Z Vivitron: luis: I enjoyed this "educational" implementation of k-means:
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2015-02-13T19:10:16Z Vivitron: luis: pasting error,
2015-02-13T19:10:34Z Vivitron: luis: "cl-mlep" though, and it has a nice usage examples page
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2015-02-13T20:21:10Z scymtym: pause
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2015-02-13T20:23:11Z LiamH wonders why Fortran statements are showing up in #lisp
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2015-02-13T20:48:13Z Krystof: (I5.2)
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2015-02-13T21:12:44Z drmeister: How does one trace a setf function for a class accessor?  (trace (setf PKG:FUNC)) ?
2015-02-13T21:13:14Z drmeister: Can this be done?
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2015-02-13T21:14:08Z Krystof: yes, exactly like that
2015-02-13T21:14:15Z Krystof: * (setf (a (make-instance 'foo)) 3)
2015-02-13T21:14:15Z Krystof:   0: ((SETF A) 3 #<FOO {1002D23A93}>)
2015-02-13T21:14:15Z Krystof:   0: (SETF A) returned 3
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2015-02-13T21:24:39Z dim: ELS London, I'll be there (baring unexpected), but once more I don't think I will have the time to prepare a decent paper to back a full talk
2015-02-13T21:24:58Z dim: is registration open already? ... going to see by myself actually
2015-02-13T21:25:49Z dim: Xach: congrats on being invited for the QL keynote, it's well deserved ;-)
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2015-02-13T21:26:21Z dim: registration tba, not late yet, cool
2015-02-13T21:27:01Z Krystof: registration is not yet open
2015-02-13T21:27:02Z Krystof: soon soon
2015-02-13T21:27:10Z Krystof: please submit papers
2015-02-13T21:28:07Z Krystof: when registration opens, please register :)
2015-02-13T21:28:14Z dim: well what I had last time for previous ELS in Paris was far from ready (and of course rejected) and I have no time to upgrade (read redo) it
2015-02-13T21:28:46Z Krystof: you've got a week + inevitable deadline extension!
2015-02-13T21:29:11Z dim: next week schedule is kids vacations, implying dad vacations too
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2015-02-13T21:33:13Z dim: trying to find again what I had last time
2015-02-13T21:33:40Z drmeister: This COND expression is in the ECL source code - it looks really wrong.  Could someone take a look at it and maybe suggest how it might be fixed?
2015-02-13T21:34:26Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/71819b02db239002e5bb
2015-02-13T21:35:06Z drmeister: I guess it depends on what si::valid-function-name-p accepts as a valid function name.
2015-02-13T21:35:26Z dim: Krystof: http://pgsql.tapoueh.org/temp/dyla_2013/pgloader.pdf --- that's too far from being useful next week as a submission, IIUC
2015-02-13T21:36:15Z dim: and I would like to tell another story this year than the one I prepared two years ago, my idea of what's interesting to talk about in the CL world has evolved, even if I would still use pgloader as the angle
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2015-02-13T21:38:01Z Krystof: sure.  For what it's worth, I would tend to say that an interesting story with a not-quite-finished paper stands a better chance of getting through than a non-interesting story with a finished paper
2015-02-13T21:38:02Z drmeister: Maybe spec == '(setf FOO) is confusing it
2015-02-13T21:38:21Z Krystof: if you have a good story, even a rough draft can be good
2015-02-13T21:38:28Z dim: this year given enough time I would like to talk about the CL community and how easy it is to get proper help and advice and good libs to do about anything, maybe some bits about debian support for CL, things like that
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2015-02-13T21:39:22Z dim: so my story would target hesitant newcomers and address the practicals of using CL in 2015, why doing so still is a very good idea
2015-02-13T21:39:42Z dim: maybe the comparing to python angle could serve that story but I personnaly am over that now ;-)
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2015-02-13T21:40:19Z dim: now, my understanding is that telling this story at ELS is “preaching to the choir”
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2015-02-13T21:43:22Z dim: btw, just accepted a patch against qmynd, maybe I should invest time in the artisan driver and properly compare the two, my guess is that artisan is going to be better at many things except for some auth methods that I can port from qmynd easily enough
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2015-02-13T21:44:10Z Krystof: did you get any interest from the recent pgloader release?  Telling the choir about experience preaching not to the choir might be fun...
2015-02-13T21:44:34Z dim: hehe
2015-02-13T21:44:34Z drmeister: My bad - the code is fine.
2015-02-13T21:44:37Z dim: yeah lots of interest
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2015-02-13T21:45:23Z dim: a not so useful measure that I like looking at is the "github stars", I went from almost 200 to 392 just with the most recent release, which made it to Hacker News
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2015-02-13T21:46:06Z dim: I keep getting bug reports, which increasingly are 1. whish list items 2. corner cases and 3. improvements, so I'm overall pretty happy with the project
2015-02-13T21:47:12Z dim: the story here is that when the product is good enough at solving a real world problem, all of sudden nobody cares about the language it's implemented in anymore (apart for those who don't need the software)
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2015-02-13T21:48:52Z dim: I get plenty feedback like "if only I knew you could code useful programs in lisp, contrary to the coverage I got at uni"
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2015-02-13T21:56:52Z dim: anyway, gn
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2015-02-13T21:57:32Z dim: Krystof: if you think that kind of story might be of enough interest, I'll prepare an overview / draft for it and we'll see what happens ;-)
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2015-02-13T22:23:52Z drmeister: dim: Based on your discussion I just submitted a paper to ELS 2015.  Maybe I'll win the lottery and be able to make it.
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2015-02-13T22:43:37Z drmeister: If I define a class CA and then another that inherits from it CB and create an instance of CB - then I change the definition of CA so that it includes an instance variable...
2015-02-13T22:44:02Z drmeister: Does every extant instance of CB get rebuilt to have that instance variable?
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2015-02-13T22:44:12Z Shinmera: "includes an instance variable" meaning?
2015-02-13T22:44:20Z Shinmera: a new slot on the class, or?
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2015-02-13T22:44:55Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/DcXn7S9t
2015-02-13T22:45:07Z drmeister: Yeah, a new slot in CA
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2015-02-13T22:46:05Z drmeister: Because that is what appears to be happening.  My mind is boggling
2015-02-13T22:46:34Z drmeister: Unless I got the sequence wrong - hang on.
2015-02-13T22:47:03Z Shinmera: have a look at shared-initialize
2015-02-13T22:47:07Z Shinmera: clhs shared-initialize
2015-02-13T22:47:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_shared.htm
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2015-02-13T22:47:09Z drmeister: Nope - that's amazing.
2015-02-13T22:47:52Z Shinmera: When a class gets redefined it is reinitialized, which calls shared-initialize that fills in the slots. This cascades.
2015-02-13T22:48:59Z drmeister: Wow - just wow.
2015-02-13T22:49:04Z Shinmera: So yes, all instances of all sub/classes should have the slot available with the proper evaluated initform as their value.
2015-02-13T22:49:12Z drmeister: I can rewrite beaches code without touching it.
2015-02-13T22:49:20Z drmeister: beach's code
2015-02-13T22:49:31Z Shinmera: CLOS is very powerful indeed.
2015-02-13T22:49:54Z nyef: All hail UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-REDEFINED-CLASS.
2015-02-13T22:50:13Z Shinmera: There've been more than a few times over the course of using CLOS and MOP that I've been quite astonished at what it can do for you.
2015-02-13T22:51:40Z drmeister: As a temporary hack I can rewrite the cleavir-ir:instruction base class to include a %LABEL slot initialized with something like (gensym (string (class-name XXX)))
2015-02-13T22:52:08Z drmeister: Hang on.  How do I get the class name for the most derived class - BZZZZTT - I think I can't do that.
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2015-02-13T22:52:15Z Shinmera: I don't know about your specific problem, but usually you can use mixins.
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2015-02-13T22:52:30Z drmeister: What are mixins?  Investigating...
2015-02-13T22:52:39Z Shinmera: That is, if you have control over your own class hierarchy?
2015-02-13T22:53:17Z kristof: drmeister: multiple inheritance, more or less
2015-02-13T22:53:48Z kristof: You "mix in" superclasses that have the functionality you want
2015-02-13T22:53:53Z drmeister: Well I'm trying to hack a feature into beach's code to add a label to each instruction that has a gensym-like name attached to it.
2015-02-13T22:54:06Z drmeister: Rather than ENTER-INSTRUCTION   I'd like ENTER-INSTRUCTION-3421
2015-02-13T22:54:11Z drmeister: Then I can tell them apart
2015-02-13T22:54:52Z Shinmera: I'm guessing the code uses Cleavir's own classes rather than some subclass that you created?
2015-02-13T22:55:20Z drmeister: Right - it's Cleavir's own classes]
2015-02-13T22:55:46Z drmeister: I don't want to edit beach's code because that causes problems when I merge his updates.
2015-02-13T22:55:50Z nyef: ... And there's no hook to substitute an "equivalent" class, like CLIM's WITH-LOOK-AND-FEEL-REALIZATION ?
2015-02-13T22:56:07Z drmeister: I have no idea.
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2015-02-13T22:56:42Z drmeister: Actually, there is.   I can substitute his HIR instructions with my MIR instructions
2015-02-13T22:57:05Z drmeister: That's what I'll do.
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2015-02-13T22:57:38Z drmeister: I'll just inherit from his instructions and add a handy-dandy label to help me distinguish instructions from each other.
2015-02-13T22:58:19Z drmeister: Then I get the label and all of his code will still work with everything.   Common Lisp - I could kiss you!
2015-02-13T22:59:05Z drmeister: Although, that's a more pedestrian capability of many OO languages.
2015-02-13T22:59:14Z drmeister: BRB
2015-02-13T22:59:16Z nyef: Essentially, CLIM specifies that creating "panes" (windows) goes through a function MAKE-PANE, which bounces to a MAKE-PANE-1 method specialized on a "realizer", which in turn is expected to either delegate to a "next method" or some other delegate or to MAKE-INSTANCE a suitable class.
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2015-02-13T23:36:19Z drmeister: It seems a bit excessive to create a MIR instruction just to improve debuggability but "needs must when the devil drives".
2015-02-13T23:36:59Z nyef: Also, "nothing exceeds like excess".
2015-02-13T23:38:58Z drmeister: Is it better to overwrite someone else's method or write an around or after method?
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2015-02-13T23:40:20Z drmeister: I suppose, like most things, it depends on the situation.
2015-02-13T23:40:28Z nyef: minion: Advice on depends?
2015-02-13T23:40:28Z minion: You can't expect automated advice for everything.
2015-02-13T23:40:30Z nyef: Aww.
2015-02-13T23:40:45Z nyef: Yeah, the answer is usually "it depends".
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2015-02-13T23:42:47Z drmeister: I'm getting close to generatin' some LLVM-IR that actually runs.  I can taste it.
2015-02-13T23:43:09Z Shinmera: Conversely enough, it is generally better to ask specific questions; people will be able to make better use of their insights.
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2015-02-13T23:43:36Z nyef: Also, very few design decisions are irreversible.
2015-02-13T23:43:46Z nyef: Although some of them can take quite a while to reverse.
2015-02-13T23:44:25Z drmeister: I have a few of those - boxed FIXNUMs - what was I thinking?
2015-02-13T23:44:47Z drmeister slaps himself on the forehead
2015-02-13T23:45:13Z drmeister: brb
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2015-02-13T23:49:48Z nyef: Boxed FIXNUMs? As in, they're heap objects?
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