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2015-01-31T02:19:57Z clop: i have a CL library, say frob, with its own .asd file and an ad-hoc test suite; it has been suggested that the test suite should be reworked as a new frob-test.asd system; can both .asd files live in the same git repo for quicklisp?
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2015-01-31T02:31:30Z kephra: but independent of clisp - any good recommendation for a light weight web server that can do continuations?
2015-01-31T02:32:29Z kephra: i need an app server, that is able to deliver static content, and answer on a POST event, to deliver a lisp like code - so, I consider Lisp as a webserver
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2015-01-31T02:38:50Z nyef: ... Where in your requirements are continuations involved?
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2015-01-31T02:45:21Z Bike: clop: sure, bordeaux threads does that for example
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2015-01-31T02:47:32Z clop: Bike: thanks, i'll take a look at how it does it
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2015-01-31T02:52:45Z guluring: hello?
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2015-01-31T02:53:54Z guluring: hi ikki
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2015-01-31T02:54:32Z Xach: clop: sure.
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2015-01-31T02:58:57Z ikki: Hi guluring
2015-01-31T03:00:08Z guluring: :) i'm new here
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2015-01-31T04:48:33Z yenda: it's easy to find the max (reduce #'max list) but of do you find the position of the max in a lisp ?
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2015-01-31T04:53:58Z JokesOnYou77: (position (max my-list) my-list)
2015-01-31T04:54:23Z JokesOnYou77: yenda, ^
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2015-01-31T04:57:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-01-31T04:58:02Z JokesOnYou77: g'morning beach
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2015-01-31T05:05:12Z yenda: thanks JokesOnYou77
2015-01-31T05:05:35Z yenda: actually I already encountered this problem once and I used the very same code
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2015-01-31T05:05:44Z yenda: but I was wondering about its efficiency
2015-01-31T05:06:24Z JokesOnYou77: It's O(n) as it's a list. I was just thinking about that
2015-01-31T05:06:26Z yenda: because it's like looking for the max in the list, then looking in the list again for the position of this max in the list
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2015-01-31T05:07:17Z Bike: you have to go through the entire list at least once to find the maximum anyway
2015-01-31T05:07:18Z yenda: yes but in the worst case (max at the end of list) you go through the list twice
2015-01-31T05:07:43Z beach: If the list is not too long, then the second time around it will be in the cache.
2015-01-31T05:08:19Z beach: Also, the second time around, on the average, you only have to traverse half the list.
2015-01-31T05:08:33Z JokesOnYou77: Oh, I didn't know there was a cache O.o ? Is it a true cache or is it just stuff that hasn't been GC'd ?
2015-01-31T05:08:47Z beach: The processor cache.
2015-01-31T05:09:12Z Bike: your computer has like three layers of cache, unless it's older than me
2015-01-31T05:10:01Z beach: But if yenda is using SBCL, then it might be faster to just write a loop than to use SBCL POSITION.
2015-01-31T05:11:12Z Bike: premature optimization and all that
2015-01-31T05:11:25Z JokesOnYou77: I've got L3
2015-01-31T05:11:58Z JokesOnYou77: Ah, I'm on LW :P (And we had allegro at school so I've been spoiled)
2015-01-31T05:12:07Z beach: Yeah, as Bike says, I don't recommend doing that, but since yenda asked about performance...
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2015-01-31T05:14:33Z yenda: I was just wondering if something like python for index, val in enumerate(ints)
2015-01-31T05:14:45Z JokesOnYou77: What determines when something get's moved in/out of CPU cache? I guess a 64 MB - 4MB cache can hold quite a large list.
2015-01-31T05:14:46Z yenda: then you just do the list once
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2015-01-31T05:15:49Z JokesOnYou77: yenda, Yes, you could use any of the iteration macros: LOOP, DO, DOTIMES, or DOLIST
2015-01-31T05:15:56Z Bike: when it gets read, basically
2015-01-31T05:16:07Z beach: yenda: Why do you care how many times the list is traversed?  The performance depends on two things; the number of times the list is traversed, and how much work is done in each iterations.
2015-01-31T05:16:12Z beach: each iteration.
2015-01-31T05:17:13Z yenda: it's psychologic
2015-01-31T05:17:14Z Bike: (loop for index from 0 for item in list do [some stuff that's a pain to write])
2015-01-31T05:17:30Z JokesOnYou77: Bike, what determines when it switches between cache and RAM though?
2015-01-31T05:17:32Z beach: JokesOnYou77: The processor cache probably uses some version of Least-Recently Used (LRU).
2015-01-31T05:17:47Z JokesOnYou77: Interesting, ok
2015-01-31T05:18:03Z beach: JokesOnYou77: It always uses the cache.  The cache gets filled if the datum is not already there.
2015-01-31T05:18:43Z JokesOnYou77: And then it uses some kind of caching algorithm, like LRU, to determine what gets swapped out?
2015-01-31T05:18:55Z beach: I think that's what I said.
2015-01-31T05:19:16Z JokesOnYou77: Right, I was summarizing to make sure I understood
2015-01-31T05:19:31Z yenda: thanks Bike
2015-01-31T05:19:38Z yenda: I don't get loop well yet
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2015-01-31T05:21:24Z beach: JokesOnYou77: I am not updated about modern caches, but some of them are one-way, so there is a pre-determined place for each datum.  Then there is only one choice of what to remove in order to put the datum in the cache.
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2015-01-31T05:23:21Z JokesOnYou77: Does that mean that a register is a physical place, for example?
2015-01-31T05:24:00Z Bike: physical places are hard to come by in modern architectures
2015-01-31T05:24:12Z Bike: maybe you should get a textbook on architecture
2015-01-31T05:24:28Z JokesOnYou77: yenda, it's very difficult.  If you have a lager list you may be better of using an array with DOTIMES
2015-01-31T05:24:31Z beach: Computer architecture is not the topic here, but I would think there are many copies of a register, due to pipelining.
2015-01-31T05:26:13Z JokesOnYou77: (let ((max-idx o) (l (length my-arr)) (dotimes (i l) (when (> (aref my-arr i) (aref my-arr max-idx)) (setf max-idx i))))
2015-01-31T05:27:46Z JokesOnYou77: beach, Ok.  I really didn't take any low level comp sci in school som I'm learning this stuff on the fly slowly.  It's just so interesting, I didn't mean to go off-topic :/
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2015-01-31T05:28:57Z beach: I agree it's interesting.  I was lucky to take a graduate course taught by Jim Goodman, the inventor of the cache-coherence protocol and of speculative lock elision.
2015-01-31T05:29:25Z JokesOnYou77: Or if we're optimizing maybe SVREF as I seem to remember Graham's ANSI common Lisp says it's faster (though maybe not so any more?)
2015-01-31T05:29:50Z Bike: usually it's more a matter of memory than speed, i think
2015-01-31T05:30:11Z Bike: also if it's an array doing a loop is totally pointless since access is mostly O(1).
2015-01-31T05:30:11Z JokesOnYou77 O.O
2015-01-31T05:30:41Z Bike: hmmmmm no did not think that through
2015-01-31T05:30:43Z Bike: whatever
2015-01-31T05:30:49Z JokesOnYou77: Wait, what? Oh, since MAX works on sequences?
2015-01-31T05:31:05Z Bike: no, since i messed up, nevermind
2015-01-31T05:31:59Z JokesOnYou77: Well it's O(n) to get max, and since you drop constants, _technically_ POSITION and MAX together are still O(n) I guess
2015-01-31T05:32:23Z Bike: that also applies to lsits
2015-01-31T05:32:32Z JokesOnYou77: Yeah, that's what I meant
2015-01-31T05:33:23Z JokesOnYou77: Since We're already O(n) might as well do the super short (position (max listy))
2015-01-31T05:34:17Z JokesOnYou77: But I guess it is technically fewer actions to do the loop on the array.  Yeah, use an array with a fill pointer and just iterate over it.
2015-01-31T05:35:35Z beach: yenda: See what you have done.  It's all your fault.
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2015-01-31T05:38:44Z JokesOnYou77: Speaking of iteration, I keep seeing this artilce when I do searches: Don't LOOP Iterate and I've read the intro but not the whole thing, is it still relevant?
2015-01-31T05:38:45Z JokesOnYou77: http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Don_0027t-Loop-Iterate.html
2015-01-31T05:39:27Z Bike: well, people still use iterate, so probably
2015-01-31T05:39:32Z beach: I have a question.  Let's say we have an implementation (target) that is bootstrapped from another implementation (host).  Presumably, there is a "cross compiler" that will produce target fasl files.  But what does the cross compiler do when it encounters an (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...)?
2015-01-31T05:40:27Z beach: The ... part must be evaluated at compile time, but these are forms that concern the target, so the host EVAL does not always apply here.
2015-01-31T05:41:14Z yenda: beach: actually no I was back into my code, I have to read the stream first
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2015-01-31T05:41:37Z beach: Perhaps such implementation must restrict what is possible to compile with the cross compiler?
2015-01-31T05:43:46Z JokesOnYou77: I've actually never used EVAL-WHEN, how does it work?
2015-01-31T05:44:03Z beach: clhs eval-when.
2015-01-31T05:44:04Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for eval-when..
2015-01-31T05:44:08Z beach: clhs eval-when
2015-01-31T05:44:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm
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2015-01-31T05:44:52Z yenda: My list is a list of neural networks (a list of lists of weights) and I want to get the max or sort them to do some selection
2015-01-31T05:44:54Z beach: JokesOnYou77: It allows the programmer to control when (compile-time, load-time, run-time) a form is evaluated.
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2015-01-31T05:45:25Z yenda: So it's not a really long list, probably never more than 100 but it will be called a lot
2015-01-31T05:46:11Z Bike: that sounds like a good place for vectors to me, sine probably your dendrites are fixed
2015-01-31T05:46:24Z beach: yenda: I think that the amount of work done in each iteration is much grater than the additional CDR that would be called if you do multiple traversals, so don't worry about it.  Just do the simplest thing that comes to mind.  Optimize later, should it be necessary.
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2015-01-31T05:46:52Z Bike: also that
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2015-01-31T05:46:57Z yenda: Bike : the neural network itself could use vectors for weights yes
2015-01-31T05:47:06Z JokesOnYou77: beach, So in your cross-compiler question, if the condition is :compile-toplevel, shouldn't the cross compiler evaluate and compile it?
2015-01-31T05:47:29Z yenda: but it doesn't change anything in speed, I actually tried
2015-01-31T05:47:57Z beach: JokesOnYou77: The cross compiler can't evaluate anything.  Evaluation has to take place in the host.  But the forms that are compiled apply to the target.
2015-01-31T05:47:58Z JokesOnYou77: yenda, Ahh, it's a NN? Cool
2015-01-31T05:48:07Z Bike: they're probably small lists, right? the advantage of O(1) access might not matter if the whole list is in cache anyway
2015-01-31T05:48:09Z yenda: beach: yes that's what I'm doing
2015-01-31T05:48:47Z yenda: Bike: I never access the nth element of a list, it's mapcars everywhere
2015-01-31T05:49:09Z Quadrescence: MAPCON OR BUST
2015-01-31T05:49:31Z JokesOnYou77: yenda, Like a perceptron or a beep belief network?  Is the function the nodes represent more of a dot product or some kind of tensor transformation on information represnted as vectors?
2015-01-31T05:49:33Z yenda: JokesOnYou77: yeah it's an IA project, need to do handwritting recognition, and since I'm crazy I decided to learn lisp and do it in lisp
2015-01-31T05:50:08Z yenda: JokesOnYou77: it's a perceptron
2015-01-31T05:50:09Z Quadrescence: yenda, too bad your program will be slow and interpreted
2015-01-31T05:50:35Z beach: Quadrescence: What have you been smoking?
2015-01-31T05:50:48Z JokesOnYou77: yenda, My AI class in college was completely in CL I only took 4 CS classes and that one was a duesy.
2015-01-31T05:50:52Z Bike: internet sarcasm humor
2015-01-31T05:51:00Z yenda: Quadrescence: What do you mean ? CL compiles
2015-01-31T05:51:11Z Quadrescence: beach, a cigar rolled from comp.lang.lisp posts from the 90s
2015-01-31T05:51:21Z beach: That explains it. :)
2015-01-31T05:51:32Z yenda: damn I hate sarcasm
2015-01-31T05:51:34Z beach: yenda: Sarcasm is often lost on IRC.
2015-01-31T05:51:56Z beach is guessing that yenda's native language has latin roots.
2015-01-31T05:52:16Z JokesOnYou77: yenda, Very cool.  Yeah, Lisp is a great language for that.
2015-01-31T05:52:29Z yenda: beach : why ? also yes
2015-01-31T05:52:32Z JokesOnYou77: ROFL,
2015-01-31T05:52:33Z beach: IA rather than AI, OTAN vs NATO, ...
2015-01-31T05:52:45Z JokesOnYou77: Curse non-order-dependent languages
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2015-01-31T05:53:11Z JokesOnYou77: OH, wow, did not see that lol
2015-01-31T05:53:45Z yenda: beach: lack of sleep :( I should pay more attention to my writings
2015-01-31T05:54:00Z beach: Nah, it's amusing to me.
2015-01-31T05:54:54Z yenda: so you said that because adjectives are before the subject in english and not in latin ?
2015-01-31T05:55:05Z beach: Yes.
2015-01-31T05:55:21Z yenda: good guess :)
2015-01-31T05:56:07Z beach: Your native language *could* have been Vietnamese, but there are more Latin people here than Vietnamese, so the probability was higher for Latin.
2015-01-31T05:56:29Z yenda: I always get AI wrong because it's pronunced almost like IA in french
2015-01-31T05:56:45Z JokesOnYou77: beach, I'm confused, I'm missing something about how the host-target compilation relationship works.  The host produces fasls for the target, the target environment will evaluate the compiled EVAL-WHEN, what's the problem?
2015-01-31T05:57:01Z yenda: JokesOnYou77: It probably slows me down quite a lot compared to python at the moment but I love
2015-01-31T05:57:16Z yenda: I'm starting to understand more and more
2015-01-31T05:57:31Z beach: JokesOnYou77: I'll try to come up with an example to illustrate the problem.
2015-01-31T05:58:32Z JokesOnYou77: beach, ok.
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2015-01-31T06:00:06Z JokesOnYou77: yenda, I've actually been playing with lisp for a few years and I only picked up python last month and I still feel like I work faster in python.  But I have yet to ifnd a substitute for the flexibility I get from Lisp.  Although, I've heard some good things about functional programming in python
2015-01-31T06:00:58Z Quadrescence: Good things about functional programming. For example: Lambda variable capture in closures doesn't work.
2015-01-31T06:02:44Z JokesOnYou77: Quadrescence, you mean I can't export something from a lambda expression? In python?
2015-01-31T06:03:11Z Quadrescence: I don't know what you mean about "exporting"
2015-01-31T06:03:24Z JokesOnYou77: Not to go too far off topic, but I've moved almost entirely to list comprehensions in python now
2015-01-31T06:03:40Z yenda: for me python is a scripting language
2015-01-31T06:03:41Z JokesOnYou77: What do you mean by variable capture?
2015-01-31T06:03:42Z Quadrescence: JokesOnYou77, write list comprehensions in Lisp
2015-01-31T06:03:52Z JokesOnYou77 O.O
2015-01-31T06:04:02Z yenda: it is awesome to write slow code fast
2015-01-31T06:04:51Z JokesOnYou77: python?  If you stick to mostly compiled libraries (numpy, scipy) it's not terrible
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2015-01-31T06:05:52Z yenda: I've mostly done web development in python, I never used numpy and scipy.
2015-01-31T06:07:11Z JokesOnYou77: Their bascially compiled C libraries for data analysis with python bindings, very fast
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2015-01-31T06:07:30Z JokesOnYou77: Ofc, you get all that speed out of the box with Lisp :D
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2015-01-31T06:08:07Z Bike: the same argument works for matlab. tragically beautiful.
2015-01-31T06:08:18Z Quadrescence: JokesOnYou77, you don't get speed out of the box with lisp necessarily
2015-01-31T06:08:28Z Quadrescence: it takes a lot of work and implementation knowledge to get very fast code
2015-01-31T06:09:05Z Bike: well you can get faster than cpython without doing anything, that's just not saying much
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2015-01-31T06:12:55Z JokesOnYou77: Well, I think that's actually saying quite a bit. I'd say that what we're comparing to is often either cpython or Java these days.  Not that there aren't still more low level libraries being produced
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2015-01-31T06:24:07Z JokesOnYou77: Could I get some feedback for style and functionality on a utility function?  It's meant to produce the input and output pathname strings for feeding data in and out of the main function of the program.  It seems fine but I feel like I should be able to do this with less code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145495
2015-01-31T06:26:23Z yenda: JokesOnYou77: I think there is a way to pass a default parameter (param default)
2015-01-31T06:26:50Z JokesOnYou77: Oh, yeah, I almost never use it, thank you
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2015-01-31T06:28:19Z JokesOnYou77: Much better lol
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2015-01-31T06:30:02Z beach: I need to know more about how a cross compiler handles global environments before I can come up with good examples of potential problems during cross compilation.
2015-01-31T06:30:21Z yenda: JokesOnYou77: also you can do thaat http://paste.lisp.org/display/145496
2015-01-31T06:30:28Z JokesOnYou77: The base param is still ugly sence it's ffitted for my machine atm but I'll switch it out for something else when I put it into an image
2015-01-31T06:30:31Z yenda: I don't know if it's readable, for me it is
2015-01-31T06:31:07Z yenda: I made a mistake out-file has to go
2015-01-31T06:31:50Z JokesOnYou77: yenda, yeahm there's an extra paren but once it's indented it's totally readable.
2015-01-31T06:33:14Z JokesOnYou77: I have this habit, maybe bleedover from more algol-like languages, of declaring and setting variables that I want at the top of my functions but maybe I don't need to in Lisp.
2015-01-31T06:34:49Z yenda: I don't know, from my really short experience I got the feeling that "let" is annoying to force you to use functions and return-values more often
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2015-01-31T06:35:50Z JokesOnYou77: How so?
2015-01-31T06:38:09Z JokesOnYou77: yenda, Now that's much shorter: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145495#1
2015-01-31T06:38:11Z JokesOnYou77: ty!
2015-01-31T06:38:32Z yenda: your code is a good exemple, it makes more sense to me to return a value I only set once directly rather than doing surrounding code with let
2015-01-31T06:38:56Z JokesOnYou77: Sometimes you just need someone else to look at your code.
2015-01-31T06:39:01Z JokesOnYou77: That's a good point.
2015-01-31T06:39:25Z JokesOnYou77: If you bind a value and then immediately return it what's the point?
2015-01-31T06:40:45Z yenda: is it a rethorical question ?
2015-01-31T06:41:41Z JokesOnYou77: I guess I feel like sometimes it's more readable if the return value is written as something like (IN-FILE-NAMES OUT-FILE-NAMES) .  But I guess if your documentation is good enough, all of that shold be explicable through the contract.
2015-01-31T06:41:54Z JokesOnYou77: yes, that was a rhetorical question, sorry
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2015-01-31T06:44:11Z yenda: in my one and only lisp program I comment most functions with ;;; outputs : something
2015-01-31T06:44:29Z yenda: I don't know if there is a convention
2015-01-31T06:46:41Z JokesOnYou77: In school we had to do: ;;; INPUTS:  blah blah blah,   ;;; OUTPUTS:   ..., ;;; SIDE-FX:
2015-01-31T06:47:39Z beach: I don't know how many professionally-written program I have read where that sort of comment didn't correspond to the code in the function.
2015-01-31T06:47:49Z beach: Because the code was modified, but the comment was not updated.
2015-01-31T06:47:52Z JokesOnYou77: Not certain if there's a true convention, but the google style guide says that it's basically the same as python, put all of the docstring.
2015-01-31T06:48:08Z JokesOnYou77: https://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml
2015-01-31T06:49:55Z beach: Furthermore, docstrings and comments target different readers.
2015-01-31T06:50:06Z JokesOnYou77: We need DocBlockr for Lisp
2015-01-31T06:50:16Z JokesOnYou77: https://github.com/spadgos/sublime-jsdocs
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2015-01-31T06:50:40Z JokesOnYou77: Right, the docstring should describe contract and usage and the comments should explain the code
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2015-01-31T06:51:03Z JokesOnYou77: Not that my code meets that standard, jsut what that guide says :P
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2015-01-31T06:56:29Z JokesOnYou77: DocBlockr is really pretty amazing.
2015-01-31T06:57:46Z JokesOnYou77: I suppose I could just use CONCATENATE for the pathname strings, but that feels wrong somehow
2015-01-31T06:59:14Z yenda: I might have not understand what DocBlockr does exactly.
2015-01-31T07:00:00Z JokesOnYou77: On the github page I liked, scroll down to the Function Documentation section.
2015-01-31T07:00:22Z JokesOnYou77: It parses the function under it and automatically generates documentation for it.
2015-01-31T07:01:01Z yenda: it's similar to snippets with extra magic
2015-01-31T07:01:47Z yenda: doable in emacs imo. maybe I'll do it when I'll know how
2015-01-31T07:02:36Z JokesOnYou77: that would be great!  And imagine if it were in a statically typed language.  So long as you name your parameters well all of your documentation would almost be done for you.
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2015-01-31T07:03:09Z yenda: should be something like (parse-form-function) triggered by ;;; in lisp-mode
2015-01-31T07:03:57Z yenda: (parse-form-function) parses the next form between parens and returns a string corresponding to your comment
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2015-01-31T07:04:49Z yenda: JokesOnYou77: well that is pretty much what eclipse does with Java
2015-01-31T07:05:14Z brucem: beach: I guess that's partly why clang grew a doc comment parser and can emit warnings now based on parsing doc comments. :)
2015-01-31T07:05:46Z beach: Oh dear!
2015-01-31T07:06:00Z JokesOnYou77: It'The description says it's "Java-style" doc blocks.  And I didn't know eclipse would do that, but my Java experience isn't great
2015-01-31T07:06:00Z yenda: litterate programming ! the doc is the code !
2015-01-31T07:08:42Z JokesOnYou77: When I have a lisp image (executable) how do I get access to the directory it's being called from?  The hyperspec makes it sound like *COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME* is set to whenever the image was compiled, and I'm not clear on whether *LOAD-PATHNAME* will be set for an image.
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2015-01-31T07:10:26Z JokesOnYou77: yenda, This is much more succinct: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145495#2  But I feel like there's some drawback I'm unaware of for using CONCATENATE instead of MERGE-PATHNAMES
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2015-01-31T07:12:54Z Quadrescence: JokesOnYou77, While I was talking to a few friends just now, I wrote this: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/77281e8cc3c35f432e4af90a563b3490ad2c6289/list-comprehension.lisp
2015-01-31T07:12:57Z Quadrescence: see the bottom for example
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2015-01-31T07:14:12Z Quadrescence: (the code is a hack and not very documented, so don't follow its example)
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2015-01-31T07:16:13Z JokesOnYou77: This is beautiful
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2015-01-31T07:17:37Z JokesOnYou77: However, cliki may have beaten you to the punch: http://www.cliki.net/list%20comprehension
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2015-01-31T07:23:54Z yenda: it doesn't look like my lisp code at all
2015-01-31T07:25:09Z JokesOnYou77: The list comprehension?  It really doesn't, that's a good point.
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2015-01-31T07:31:15Z beach: OK, I think I have an example of a cross-compilation problem.  Either the cross compiler uses the host macro facility, or it uses its own, right?
2015-01-31T07:31:21Z beach: In the first case, there is a problem compiling the following code: (macrolet ((mm (a b) `(aref ,a ,b))) (setf (mm x y) 234)).
2015-01-31T07:31:26Z beach: In the second case, there is a problem with this code: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (setf (macro-function 'nn (lambda ...)))) and then (defun ff (...) (nn ...))
2015-01-31T07:33:22Z JokesOnYou77: Because the macro has to be expanded in either one implementation or the other?
2015-01-31T07:33:32Z beach: Yes.
2015-01-31T07:34:27Z beach: In the first case, SETF calls the macro expander for (mm x y), but the host can't handle that, because MM is defined in a target environment.
2015-01-31T07:34:36Z Quadrescence: JokesOnYou77, I am definitely not the first person to have implemented list comprehensions in Lisp.
2015-01-31T07:35:02Z JokesOnYou77: Could a macro implementation be written in such a way that it produces the syntax tree (whatever it's called, the dfa?) for the implementation it's on?
2015-01-31T07:35:14Z beach: In the second case, the cross compiler doesn't recognize that NN is a macro because the (setf (macro-function ...) ...) was evaluated by the host.
2015-01-31T07:35:40Z JokesOnYou77: Quadrescence, but you knocked it out in 30 minutes in 30 lines and it runs without libraries, that's pretty badass
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2015-01-31T07:41:19Z JokesOnYou77: beach, this is a really interesting problem you've come up with.  Are there existing implementations that tackle this?
2015-01-31T07:42:15Z JokesOnYou77: *60 lines :P
2015-01-31T07:42:18Z beach: JokesOnYou77: That's what I am asking basically.  If I am to believe the paper by Krystof, only SBCL actually bootstraps this way, so the answer depends on what SBCL is doing.
2015-01-31T07:45:30Z JokesOnYou77: It boggles the mind quite a bit.  "I'd like you to do things at compile time, but you over there need to do things at macro expansion time"
2015-01-31T07:46:21Z beach: In SICL, I solve this problem by using first-class global environments.
2015-01-31T07:46:44Z JokesOnYou77: Is it possible to just rely on the macro-expansion of the target to figure it out?
2015-01-31T07:46:52Z JokesOnYou77: What does that mean?
2015-01-31T07:46:57Z jasom: I just got a cute error message from sbcl: Nihil ex nihil
2015-01-31T07:47:48Z jasom: it happens when you try to set (symbol-value nil)
2015-01-31T07:48:46Z beach: In SICL, I use the SICL macro expansion.  But I also handle (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...) by compiling "..." using the SICL compiler in a way that the result can be executed by the host.
2015-01-31T07:49:03Z beach: So I don't call the host EVAL at all.
2015-01-31T07:50:16Z JokesOnYou77: So EVAL-WHEN jsut evaluates compiled code, that makes sense.  The trick I suppose it compiling ...
2015-01-31T07:51:12Z Shinmera: beach: I don't quite follow what the problem is with your first example, if the SETF is the one from the target?
2015-01-31T07:52:05Z beach: Shinmera: Yes, I see what you are saying.  Just have it not call the host macroexpand?
2015-01-31T07:52:31Z Shinmera: Well you could even make it try to look in both
2015-01-31T07:52:44Z beach: I suppose, yes.
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2015-01-31T07:53:18Z beach: I would have to come up with a better example. :)
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2015-01-31T07:53:52Z JokesOnYou77: I know this is missing the point a bit, but if the compiler isn't calling the macroexpand, does that mean code produced by the macro is being run as interpreted code?
2015-01-31T07:53:58Z Shinmera: And for the second case, one could use *macroexpand-hook*
2015-01-31T07:54:05Z JokesOnYou77: At run time
2015-01-31T07:54:23Z beach: JokesOnYou77: The compiler does not have the option to not macroexpand.
2015-01-31T07:54:52Z beach: Shinmera: What would it do?  Check the host environment as well?
2015-01-31T07:55:09Z Shinmera: I suppose.
2015-01-31T07:55:29Z Shinmera: I'm basically just brainstorming here, I don't have an actual clue about how SBCL does the deed.
2015-01-31T07:55:33Z beach: Sure.
2015-01-31T07:55:41Z JokesOnYou77: But...I thought you said "Just have it not call the host macroexpand"
2015-01-31T07:55:51Z JokesOnYou77: << Confused
2015-01-31T07:56:25Z beach: I am just trying to figure out what kind of restrictions there must be on cross compilation, and what they are depending on the technique used for cross compilation.  I have this gut feeling that there must be restrictions.
2015-01-31T07:57:41Z jasom: are there any lisp linters out there?
2015-01-31T07:57:42Z beach: JokesOnYou77: Sinmera says that if SETF is not the host version, but the target version, then you can write it whatever way you please.  So in that case, it can call the target macro expander on the first argument, rather than calling the host macro expander.
2015-01-31T07:58:28Z JokesOnYou77: Oh!
2015-01-31T07:58:52Z jasom: it just seems like there are a certain class of errors that I occasionally make that could be fairly easily checked; e.g. specifying the type (or foo nil) instead of (or foo null).  I think I have never actually meant nil when I typed that.
2015-01-31T07:58:58Z beach: Shinmera: I think it boils down to the following: Cross compilation must play tricks with packages so that (say) SETF doesn't mean CL:SETF.
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2015-01-31T07:59:27Z Shinmera: Well yes.
2015-01-31T07:59:42Z Shinmera: Package tricks is what it's all about is the main thing I've learned from all I've heard about the topic.
2015-01-31T08:00:17Z beach: Shinmera: And one of the premises for bootstrapping SICL is that I don't want to play tricks with packages.
2015-01-31T08:00:29Z JokesOnYou77: beach, you may be able to put your restictions into the way packages are exported rather than the way code itself can be written.  Maybe even cleverly replacing packages at compile time
2015-01-31T08:00:42Z JokesOnYou77: Ah
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2015-01-31T08:01:19Z beach: JokesOnYou77: That's what SBCL does.
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2015-01-31T08:02:11Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, well at least I'm understanding the problem well enough now to think along the right lines :P
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2015-01-31T08:03:03Z beach: I want the file containing the definition of SETF to look like this: (cl:in-package #:sicl-data-and-control-flow) (defmacro setf ....) and I want the definition of the package to look like this: (defpackage #:sicl-data-and-control-flow (:use #:common-lisp))
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2015-01-31T08:05:28Z JokesOnYou77: Ah, that's going to be more difficult.  What's wrong with the sbcl approac?
2015-01-31T08:05:38Z beach: The trick I use in order for this to work is, as I said, that code to be evaluated at compile time is translated to HIR and then to host Common Lisp, and executing the result influences the target first-class global environment rather than the host global environment.
2015-01-31T08:06:09Z beach: JokesOnYou77: Nothing wrong.  I just don't like it.
2015-01-31T08:06:33Z JokesOnYou77: Fair enough.  It does seem a bit sticky.
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2015-01-31T08:07:20Z beach: Let me put it this way: I tried bootstrapping CLOS by playing tricks with package names, and it was a debugging and maintenance nightmare.
2015-01-31T08:09:02Z beach: Granted, that could be because I am not a sufficiently good programmer to make the code more debuggable and maintainable.
2015-01-31T08:09:33Z JokesOnYou77: Yeah, it seems like it wouldn't be general enough, like you'd have to hand pick every little thing instead of defining a general solution once
2015-01-31T08:12:33Z beach: One can see the reason why implementations other than SBCL avoid the problem entirely by incrementally modifying an existing native image.  But I do agree with the objective of SBCL that it should be possible to bootstrap it from source.
2015-01-31T08:13:43Z JokesOnYou77: I'm not clear on what that objective is.  I didn't even know it was doing any kind of cross cimpilation
2015-01-31T08:14:35Z beach: If you want to bootstrap an implementation by using some other implementation, you need to cross compile, i.e. you need to generate target FASLs on some host Common Lisp implementation.
2015-01-31T08:17:23Z beach: ... just like in order to compile GCC from source code, you need to use a C compiler.
2015-01-31T08:17:59Z jasom: I think gcc requires gcc to build it even
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2015-01-31T08:18:10Z beach: That's possible.
2015-01-31T08:18:16Z JokesOnYou77: But wait, what's the host CL implementation for SBCL? Why are we bootstrapping at all?  Is this in order to build SBCL itself?
2015-01-31T08:18:16Z jasom: cmucl required cmucl and one of the goals of sbcl was to be buildable by any common lisp compiler
2015-01-31T08:18:44Z beach: JokesOnYou77: What jasom says.
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2015-01-31T08:19:12Z beach: JokesOnYou77: I think they used to use CLISP, but maybe that is not possible anymore.
2015-01-31T08:19:19Z JokesOnYou77: Ahhhh, ok that I get.  Haven't actually tried building SBCL yet (with LW ).  I asked here once and was told I'd be better off downloading the binary
2015-01-31T08:19:39Z beach: JokesOnYou77: SOMEONE has to generate the binary for you.
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2015-01-31T08:20:06Z jasom: JokesOnYou77: it's easy to build sbcl with sbcl, so if e.g. you want to build the latest version from source control you can do that with a downloaded binary
2015-01-31T08:20:18Z JokesOnYou77: Yeah but that someone has a correctly configured build environment already :P
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2015-01-31T08:22:12Z JokesOnYou77: Yeah, but my current SBCL install is borked somehow.  I can't load anything newer than 1.0.58 in slime for some reason (I think I have old versions of things sitting around) so I'm on LispWorks.
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2015-01-31T08:22:34Z beach: I have first-hand experience of requiring system A to bootstrap a newer version of system A (not Common Lisp).  If there is a bug that crept into some old version and that is detected after N levels of bootstrapping, you may have a problem going back sufficiently far to find a version without the bug.
2015-01-31T08:23:02Z JokesOnYou77: Except for library availability I realyl can't complain though.  The compiler is quite nice and since I can just use emacs on top of an image I get everything I want out of it.
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2015-01-31T08:26:42Z JokesOnYou77: Well, it's time for me to god to bed.  Good night all.  And thank you for the discussions and explanations
2015-01-31T08:26:55Z beach: 'night JokesOnYou77.
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2015-01-31T08:30:26Z jasom: and no discussion of bootstrapping is complete with out a referrence to the "Trusting Trust" paper (by Ritchie, I think?)
2015-01-31T08:30:46Z jasom: Ken Thompson
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2015-01-31T08:32:37Z ehaliewicz: jasom: anyone want to take on the task of hand-compiling a cl compiler :)
2015-01-31T08:32:43Z ehaliewicz: ?
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2015-01-31T08:49:25Z beach: jasom: Yes, I remember reading that way back.
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2015-01-31T08:52:02Z beach: Common Lisp is a few orders of magnitude harder to bootstrap than a simple language like C, which makes the topic even more interesting.
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2015-01-31T09:07:44Z pjb: minion: memo for emaczen: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq
2015-01-31T09:07:45Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell emaczen when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-01-31T09:07:48Z beach: ehaliewicz: Well, let's think... If a system S is being bootstrapped on two different host systems A and B, then after everything is being compiled a second time, the binary result ought to be identical in the two cases, right?
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2015-01-31T09:09:06Z beach: If so, one could use that method as a way of checking that there are no security holes.  At least it would make it less probable for there to be such holes.
2015-01-31T09:09:31Z pjb: kephra: have a look at UncommonWeb (arnesi).  It's the only CL web app server based on continuations  AFAIK.
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2015-01-31T09:23:05Z pjb: beach: A top-level (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) …) would have to be excuted in the compilation environment, therefore in the host environmented, for a cross-compiler.  A cross-compiler would have to have things stored in the host too (macro functions, etc).
2015-01-31T09:23:44Z pjb: Notice that it's not necessarily compiled: you could provide an interpreter to interpret the cross compiler in the host.
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2015-01-31T09:30:37Z pjb: beach: notice that it's up to the programmer to ensure that things needed at compilation time are available at compilation time with toplevel (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) …) forms.  (Including reader macros needed by the compiler to read the sources).
2015-01-31T09:30:42Z ehaliewicz: beach: I think that's correct..
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2015-01-31T09:31:37Z pjb: beach: and since this can be performed by loading (a possibly compiled) file, a CL cross compiler would probably have to compile both host fasl and target fasl in general.
2015-01-31T09:32:09Z beach: Sounds complicated.
2015-01-31T09:32:19Z pjb: I don't think we have a choice here.
2015-01-31T09:32:41Z beach: pjb: I would need to take apart every phrase you wrote to see what you mean exactly.
2015-01-31T09:33:46Z beach: pjb: I agree (it seems obvious) that a cross compiler has to have things stored in the host.
2015-01-31T09:33:52Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
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2015-01-31T09:34:52Z beach: I agree that a top-level (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...) must be executed in the compilation environment.
2015-01-31T09:35:31Z beach: pjb: But I am not sure how specific you think the phrase "the host environment for a cross compiler" is.
2015-01-31T09:35:41Z pjb: There are such forms hidden in a number of macros.  03_bbc seems to list them (hopefully) all.
2015-01-31T09:36:00Z beach: pjb: Don't interrupt me! :)
2015-01-31T09:36:07Z beach: What are "such forms"?
2015-01-31T09:36:33Z pjb: eval-when :compile-toplevel.  Ie. some CL macros have compile-time effects.
2015-01-31T09:36:42Z beach: Yes, yes, of course.
2015-01-31T09:36:47Z yenda: it's awesome how you can hotswap running code in lisp
2015-01-31T09:37:56Z beach: pjb: The question is what is meant by "the host environment for a cross compiler".  It could just mean that since we are running in the host, it must be in the host and since we are running the cross compiler it must be for the cross compiler.
2015-01-31T09:38:51Z beach: pjb: I also agree that the cross compiler could be interpreted.  But I don't see what difference that would make.
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2015-01-31T09:39:41Z pjb: Yes, the cross compiler could use the host run-time environment as its cross compilation environment, or it could compile the source code in the host to use a distinct cross-compilation compilation environment, or it could intepret the source code to use a distinct cross-compilation compilation environment.  So I guess we have some choices here.
2015-01-31T09:39:50Z beach: pjb: And I agree that it is up to the programmer to ensure that things needed at compile time are available.
2015-01-31T09:40:30Z pjb: So if you have first class environment, you may want to use them in the cross compiler for the compilation environment, instead of using the host run-time environment.
2015-01-31T09:40:43Z beach: And I am saying that if THE host environment is used (there is usually only one), then tricks must be played with package names.
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2015-01-31T09:40:52Z beach: Exactly.
2015-01-31T09:40:57Z pjb: Yes.
2015-01-31T09:41:18Z pjb: Since in anycase you need to have your own reader, to run the user's reader macro in your cross compiler compilation environment.
2015-01-31T09:41:25Z beach: pjb: There was a much shorter way of saying all you said: "beach: Yes, I agree with everything you said." :)
2015-01-31T09:41:50Z pjb: I would have to be much faster to understand all the implications :-)
2015-01-31T09:41:57Z beach: True. :)
2015-01-31T09:42:51Z beach: I am pretty sure I know how to do this "right".  I am just interested in the restrictions that are imposed if you don't do it my way.  As it happens, according to the paper by Krystof, only SBCL is concerned then.
2015-01-31T09:43:31Z beach: And I am now thinking that if you play tricks with package names, there are very few restrictions.
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2015-01-31T09:44:23Z beach: But it might still be tricky to avoid such restrictions of course, even if it is possible.
2015-01-31T09:44:23Z pjb: Do you want to use the host package system?
2015-01-31T09:44:37Z jasom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm <-- it's not clear to me, will "O" always be passed as the first argument to the test?
2015-01-31T09:44:45Z beach: pjb: I currently do, at least in phase 1 of bootstrapping.
2015-01-31T09:45:27Z pjb: Because I would imagining using something like my reader and package system, plus your first class environment to run reader macros in your own cross compiler compilation environment.
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2015-01-31T09:45:45Z beach: pjb: Yes, that is a possibility.
2015-01-31T09:46:01Z beach: jasom: I think so, yes.
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2015-01-31T09:47:19Z beach: jasom: I think "O and Zi" (implicitly) says that.
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2015-01-31T09:51:21Z beach: pjb: So it would be interesting to consider some kind of "minimality" requirement, i.e., there should be as little *additional* code as possible required in order to do the bootstrapping.  Using code that is already written for the target system doesn't count as "additional" then.
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2015-01-31T09:52:08Z beach: Such a requirement is necessarily fuzzy since we don't know how to measure code quantity.  But still, as a general guideline.
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2015-01-31T10:00:13Z pjb: beach: let's consider you already have the SICL implementation written in CL.  So somewhere you have definitions for a package system.  But since it's written in CL, you probably don't want to clobber the current package system, so it's something like defclass $package, not defclass package (which would clobber the current level package class). Therefore this SICL implementation should be loadable on a conforming CL implementation just
2015-01-31T10:00:13Z pjb: like on SICL, and there should be no special bootstrapping difficulty.
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2015-01-31T10:09:06Z beach: pjb: I think I can do (cl:defclass cl:package ...) provided that this form is evaluated in a different first-class global environment.
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2015-01-31T10:10:14Z beach: ... but its a delicate balance concerning which environment to use for different features.  I need to experiment more.
2015-01-31T10:11:17Z beach: Speaking of which.  I feel I am close-ish to an executable SICL system.  If I skimp on compiler optimizations and concentrate on generating code, there should not be much stuff left.
2015-01-31T10:11:44Z beach: However, I still don't quite know how to bootstrap the initial system.
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2015-01-31T10:12:32Z beach: Krystof wrote something about it being a delicate process to load fasl files into the initial system.
2015-01-31T10:13:51Z beach: I am hoping I can compile a form such as (defun blabla (...) ...) in some first-class global environment in the host, and have the effect show up in some memory image of the target system.  But I don't know how to do that yet.
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2015-01-31T10:14:39Z beach: pjb: Did you read that paper by Krystof?
2015-01-31T10:14:49Z pjb: No.
2015-01-31T10:15:01Z beach: Ah, you probably should.
2015-01-31T10:15:12Z beach: Hold on, let me see if I can find it online.
2015-01-31T10:16:13Z beach: http://research.gold.ac.uk/2336/1/sbcl.pdf
2015-01-31T10:16:19Z pjb: thanks.
2015-01-31T10:16:30Z Krystof: wow, our online preprints server works
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2015-01-31T10:16:47Z beach: Is that were the paper is?
2015-01-31T10:16:57Z Krystof: that's one of the copies
2015-01-31T10:17:00Z beach: Great!
2015-01-31T10:17:55Z Krystof: the delicate process of initialization is to do with how much of the runtime support is there "from birth" and how much is incrementally generated through loading fasls (or moral equivalent)
2015-01-31T10:18:06Z beach: Yeah.
2015-01-31T10:18:14Z Krystof: so for example, the initial image that we dump knows about the class T, but doesn't know about hash tables
2015-01-31T10:18:21Z beach: I am looking for the exact phrase you used.
2015-01-31T10:18:47Z Krystof: so you can't do any package lookups until you execute the forms that make hash tables exist (because packages are implemented in terms of hash tables)
2015-01-31T10:19:46Z beach: Sounds reasonable.
2015-01-31T10:21:36Z beach: "This `cold init' phase is probably the most fragile portion of the SBCL build currently, and it is also the hardest to debug (because if it goes wrong, there will be no helpful Lisp debugger)."
2015-01-31T10:23:17Z Krystof: yeah.  The debugger needs everything else to work.
2015-01-31T10:23:36Z Krystof: ah, the days when I would be running assembly code by hand to find out what had been miscompiled
2015-01-31T10:25:50Z nydel: if sstr is my socket-stream, how to send "IAC,DONT,ECHO" over it in 8-bit?
2015-01-31T10:27:25Z beach: Krystof: Wow, pretty tedious.
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2015-01-31T10:36:56Z jasom: nydel: (write-sequence '(255 254 1) sstr) ?
2015-01-31T10:38:33Z yenda: Krystof: pretty impossible with complex programs isn't it ?
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2015-01-31T10:47:27Z nydel: jasom: i'm getting "255 isn't of type character" ... syntax off someplace?
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2015-01-31T10:47:59Z pjb: nydel: telnet is a binary protocol.
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2015-01-31T10:49:22Z nydel: pjb: how should i go about sending 255 254 1 such that it takes it as a command and all? or IAC DONT ECHO (255 254 1)
2015-01-31T10:49:36Z pjb: (write-sequence '(255 254 1) sstr)
2015-01-31T10:49:48Z pjb: But use :elemnt-type '(unsigned-byte 8) when opening sstr.
2015-01-31T10:50:02Z nydel: ahh that's what it is.
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2015-01-31T10:51:36Z nydel: trying to figure out how to do that in usocket package
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2015-01-31T11:00:32Z H4ns: nydel: you need to have a bivalent stream so that you can write bytes and characters to it
2015-01-31T11:00:42Z H4ns: nydel: flexi-streams can help you with that.
2015-01-31T11:00:52Z jasom: ugh usocket; if you have to, you can set the encoding to iso-8859-1 and use (mapcar #'code-char '(255 254 1))
2015-01-31T11:01:13Z H4ns: nydel: both drakma and hunchentoot use flexi-streams + usocket
2015-01-31T11:02:34Z jasom: nydel: ah, just :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)
2015-01-31T11:04:34Z nydel: H4ns: jasom: thank you guys, this is exactly what i needed to know & wasn't sure how to ask the internet. much appreciated.
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2015-01-31T11:17:25Z nydel: still chipping away at this, not sure exactly where to set encoding, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9974564/ if anyone wants to take a look, around line 190 is where i started the toggle-echo attempts
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2015-01-31T11:48:57Z H4ns: you are treating your socket as binary stream it seems.  you could wrap it in a flexi-stream right after you're accepted the connection.
2015-01-31T11:49:13Z H4ns: then you'll be able to use it both for binary and character io without having to mess with the encodings.
2015-01-31T11:49:55Z H4ns: review the examples in http://weitz.de/flexi-streams/
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2015-01-31T11:53:55Z beach: moore33: Hey, long time no see!
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2015-01-31T11:56:59Z moore33: beach:I was thinking that too!
2015-01-31T11:57:36Z moore33: beach: What are you working on?
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2015-01-31T11:58:31Z beach: moore33: Very busy with SICL/Cleavir.  I managed to create a SICL first-class global inside the host (SBCL) and actually evaluate forms that way.
2015-01-31T11:59:08Z moore33: Cool, sounds like an advance in cross-build state of the art.
2015-01-31T11:59:09Z beach: I also have a customer for Cleavir; drmeister is planning to use it to write a better compiler for Clasp.
2015-01-31T11:59:18Z beach: yeah, I think it is.
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2015-01-31T11:59:47Z beach: moore33: What about you?  What are you doing?
2015-01-31T12:00:04Z vanila: the SICL code inspired me to write my code more carefully with a  lot more comments
2015-01-31T12:00:18Z beach: vanila: Excellent!
2015-01-31T12:01:37Z moore33: beach: Not much Lisp until very recently. I learned more about Maxima in order to work my way through http://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/content/sicm/book.html
2015-01-31T12:02:08Z moore33: beach: But I am returning to hacking on my OpenGL framework with some new ideas.
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2015-01-31T12:02:25Z beach: Great!
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2015-01-31T12:03:38Z moore33: I need to make sure that I keep my paying work separate from this; writing in Lisp is a good start :)
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2015-01-31T12:04:09Z beach: Heh.  Yeah.  Why do you need to keep it separate though?
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2015-01-31T12:05:50Z moore33: Because I can't incorporate my client's proprietary ideas in a free project :)
2015-01-31T12:06:03Z beach: Ah, yes, I see.
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2015-01-31T12:06:24Z moore33: One day they might open-source their toolkit, but not today.
2015-01-31T12:06:50Z beach: So the Lisp stuff you are working on is in the same domain as your work stuff, then?
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2015-01-31T12:07:43Z moore33: beach: Yes: efficient representations of 3D scenes for OpenGL.
2015-01-31T12:07:52Z moore33: Kinda exactly what my client does.
2015-01-31T12:08:25Z beach: Yeah, better be careful.
2015-01-31T12:09:42Z moore33: beach: Apart from writing my stuff in CL, I've taken a different approach, so I'm not worried.
2015-01-31T12:09:58Z beach: Good.
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2015-01-31T12:13:19Z moore33: beach: I went through 2 days of "formation agile" on the job :)
2015-01-31T12:13:31Z beach: Nice.  How was it?
2015-01-31T12:14:38Z moore33: Not as useless as I thought it would be. The trainer was good, and "Agile" seems like a good way to manage software efforts.
2015-01-31T12:15:01Z beach: Yeah, I am convinced.
2015-01-31T12:15:09Z moore33: We played some games, like building a Lego village using agile methods :)
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2015-01-31T12:15:23Z beach: Oh dear! :)
2015-01-31T12:15:34Z pjb: beach: depends on the kind of projects, and even.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_programming
2015-01-31T12:16:16Z moore33: It's not as stupid as it sounds. People have a tendency to fall back to their default M.O.s in games, so the managers acted like managers, etc. with predictable results.
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2015-01-31T12:16:53Z beach: moore33: Interesting.
2015-01-31T12:16:55Z pjb: That is, the fundamental question I have, is how to do what Alan Kay's promoting, using Agile project management? http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/
2015-01-31T12:17:18Z beach: pjb: First time I see "slow programming".
2015-01-31T12:17:41Z moore33: beach: Also, I arranged for a friend's son to do his stage de 3eme, with the result that he discovered that he prefers marketing to engineering. Oops! :)
2015-01-31T12:17:48Z moore33: Slow programming  is what I do all the time.
2015-01-31T12:17:51Z pjb: https://ventrellathing.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/the-case-for-slow-programming/
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2015-01-31T12:18:44Z pjb: Also, corporation aren't able to manage programmers, so with agile, they just drop the ball, and have programmers manage themselves.  No pay raise included however.
2015-01-31T12:19:14Z moore33: pjb: That's not how it works.
2015-01-31T12:19:21Z moore33: Except for the pay raise part.
2015-01-31T12:19:25Z beach: I find myself incapable of completely thinking through design decisions.  I don't see the consequences until I have implemented it, and then I have to redesign and rewrite.  But perhaps that is non incompatible with slow programming.
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2015-01-31T12:20:10Z pjb: beach: the redesign and rewrite part is what goes to the trap with agile: you're already in a next sprint, and in practice, never have time to redesign and eat technical debt.
2015-01-31T12:20:35Z beach: Isn't that what refactoring is about?
2015-01-31T12:20:41Z moore33: pjb: Again, that's not how it works.
2015-01-31T12:20:53Z pjb: moore33: not in theory, but yes in practice.
2015-01-31T12:20:53Z moore33: Or not how it is supposed to work.
2015-01-31T12:21:20Z beach: I have heard that companies that adopt agile methods skip the refectoring part.
2015-01-31T12:21:25Z beach: refactoring
2015-01-31T12:21:27Z pjb: Also, in corporation, agile is often implemented with a ton of tools (Jira, etc), and the human aspect is left far behind.
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2015-01-31T12:21:42Z moore33: pjb: I agree that a kind of "pseudo-agile" works like that, where companies think they can force people to work harder in sprints, but still do up-front design, etc.
2015-01-31T12:22:53Z beach: pjb: I get worried when I hear phrases that are suggested on the Wikipedia page on slow programming, because they suggest that I wouldn't have the right to write code until I have thought trough my design carefully, and since I do that by writing code, I could not accept working like that.
2015-01-31T12:23:16Z pjb: At the end of the day, it's still the corporation who's giving money and doing the accounting with money.  Accounting is not done with planning pocker points.
2015-01-31T12:24:39Z pjb: beach: agile (or rather, the sprint iteration) is not new either.  This was what was advocated by the people who described the cascade process which was to be implemented as a spiral.
2015-01-31T12:25:21Z pjb: The idea is not too complex, but has several components, and people keep forgetting one component or the other.
2015-01-31T12:25:33Z beach: Yes, I see that a lot.
2015-01-31T12:25:47Z beach: "forgetting" or rather saying "this would be too expensive".
2015-01-31T12:26:11Z fiveop: And there are times and circumstances where companies really can't afford that.
2015-01-31T12:26:26Z beach: Like "forgetting" about pair programming.
2015-01-31T12:26:46Z moore33: agile != extreme programming
2015-01-31T12:26:52Z beach: Granted.
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2015-01-31T12:27:48Z moore33: Gotta go fix lunch for two hungry teenagers :P
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2015-01-31T12:31:41Z fiveop: I just based my decision on where to work on the fact that one company claimes to use scrum while the other does not. Mostly because I am curious how that looks in practice (at least at one particular company).
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2015-01-31T12:34:18Z Xach: fiveop: i found "life cycle of a silver bullet" quite interesting in that regard
2015-01-31T12:35:00Z fiveop: without having read that text it sounds like the auther doesn't think it will stay :)
2015-01-31T12:35:22Z Xach: fiveop: the gist is that a company that finds success with a certain technique has the right combination of culture, buy-in, and technique, and organizations that follow hope to find the success with only the technique (and possibly only parts of the technique)
2015-01-31T12:35:48Z Xach: http://www.crosstalkonline.org/storage/issue-archives/2003/200307/200307-Sheard.pdf is the article
2015-01-31T12:36:41Z Xach: when subsequent organizations fail, the technique is blamed and the process restarted
2015-01-31T12:37:10Z Shinmera: beach: Thanks a lot for the link to that paper (SBCL bootstrapping)!
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2015-01-31T12:40:07Z fiveop: Xach: That goes in a similar direction as the discussion above: you can't just take a part of it.
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2015-01-31T12:42:32Z fiveop: And it seems obivous that you have to adapt whatever development technique you want to use to your situation. A company developing a completely new application has different restrictions than a company with a 30 year old code base that has to keep working.
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2015-01-31T12:46:11Z beach: Shinmera: Oh, sure.  I thought it was well known.
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2015-01-31T12:51:04Z Shinmera: I don't recall coming across it before at least.
2015-01-31T12:51:49Z beach: Yeah, I had the wrong impression.  Seems pjb hadn't seen it either.
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2015-01-31T12:55:39Z beach: Shinmera: One of the more interesting pieces of information in it (to me) is that no other Common Lisp implementation is bootstrapped on a host Common Lisp implementation this way.
2015-01-31T12:56:14Z Shinmera: I would say that that's because using the incremental approach is conceptually much easier.
2015-01-31T12:56:37Z Shinmera: As is shown making it independent complicates the process by quite a bit.
2015-01-31T12:56:38Z beach: That's probably true.
2015-01-31T12:57:15Z beach: But it would make me very nervous to update an implementation by incrementally transforming an image.
2015-01-31T12:58:02Z Shinmera: I'd say another tidbit is history, once again, since ANSI CL only appeared in 1994 compatibility amongst implementations was probably not as good as it is now.
2015-01-31T12:58:39Z Shinmera: Or rather standards compliance wasn't as good.
2015-01-31T12:58:57Z beach: So you mean it would have been hard to assume the features needed to bootstrap?
2015-01-31T12:59:07Z Shinmera: For certain things, definitely.
2015-01-31T12:59:14Z beach: Makes sense.
2015-01-31T12:59:37Z Shinmera: I remember a recent blog entry about issues in SBCLs process related to how big fixnums and other such types are.
2015-01-31T13:00:18Z beach: There are issues like that, yes.
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2015-01-31T13:00:45Z beach: It is important to keep the host and the target as separate as possible.
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2015-01-31T13:26:15Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2015-01-31T13:28:03Z beach: Hello nyef.
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2015-01-31T13:36:36Z Shinmera is slowly working his way through the hundreds of compile errors when loading Parasol with the new Qtools.
2015-01-31T13:36:51Z Shinmera: Talk about a backwards compatibility breaking version.
2015-01-31T13:42:03Z Ralt: hello
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2015-01-31T13:42:21Z Ralt: how should I define a test system?
2015-01-31T13:42:34Z Ralt: if I use another .asd file, (ql:quickload doesn't load the tests
2015-01-31T13:42:55Z Ralt: if I add the defsystem in the same asd file as my main system, ql:quickload doesn't find the system either...
2015-01-31T13:43:07Z Shinmera: Use a separate ASD for your test system
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2015-01-31T13:43:46Z Shinmera: But then in the main system definition form add :in-order-to ((asdf:test-op (asdf:test-op :test-system-here)))
2015-01-31T13:43:47Z Ralt: Shinmera: and I add a line to system-index.txt?
2015-01-31T13:43:54Z Ralt: oh
2015-01-31T13:43:56Z Ralt: thanks
2015-01-31T13:44:13Z Shinmera: When you do that you can use (asdf:test-system :main-system) and it'll automatically load and call TEST-OP on the test system
2015-01-31T13:45:20Z Shinmera: In your test system you'll then want a (defmethod asdf:perform ((op asdf:test-op) (system (eql (asdf:find-system :test-system-here)))) ...) that starts the actual test.
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2015-01-31T13:45:36Z Shinmera: Or rather in your test project lisp file
2015-01-31T13:45:41Z Ralt: nice system
2015-01-31T13:45:58Z Shinmera: I should write a blog explaining this.
2015-01-31T13:46:03Z Shinmera makes a todo
2015-01-31T13:46:26Z Ralt: hmmm
2015-01-31T13:46:29Z Ralt: doesn't see mto work
2015-01-31T13:46:42Z Ralt: lemme check a little more.
2015-01-31T13:46:44Z Shinmera: It works just dandy if you do it right.
2015-01-31T13:46:50Z Ralt: yeah I guess so
2015-01-31T13:47:18Z Ralt: ; Evaluation aborted on Component :LXC-WRAPPER-TEST not found, required by #<SYSTEM "lxc-wrapper">.
2015-01-31T13:47:25Z Ralt: yup, it doesn't find it
2015-01-31T13:47:48Z Shinmera: Are you using quicklisp's local projects?
2015-01-31T13:47:57Z Ralt: yup
2015-01-31T13:48:12Z Shinmera: Then you need to do a (ql:register-local-projects) whenever you add new .asd files.
2015-01-31T13:48:54Z Ralt: ah, indeed.
2015-01-31T13:48:55Z Ralt: thank you
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2015-01-31T13:51:01Z Ralt: Shinmera: it's awesome :-)
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2015-01-31T13:52:03Z Shinmera: Glad to help.
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2015-01-31T13:57:38Z Ralt: hmm
2015-01-31T13:58:02Z Ralt: isn't sbcl --load-system foo --eval '(uiop:quit (if (asdf:test-system :lxc-wrapper) 0 1))' supposed to work?
2015-01-31T13:58:07Z Ralt: or am I missing something obvious?
2015-01-31T13:59:56Z Xach: Ralt: --load-system is not a sbcl option
2015-01-31T14:00:08Z Ralt: Xach: oh right, it's a buildapp option
2015-01-31T14:00:12Z Ralt: thank you ._.
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2015-01-31T14:00:50Z Xach hopes to work on buildapp today
2015-01-31T14:01:57Z Ralt: hmf... asdf:test-system always returns T...
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2015-01-31T14:02:02Z Ralt: to the doc I go!
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2015-01-31T14:04:03Z Shinmera: Ralt: it's right in the definition of ASDF:TEST-SYSTEM
2015-01-31T14:04:53Z Shinmera: Ralt: If you want the result of your method, try (asdf:operate 'asdf:test-op :your-system)
2015-01-31T14:05:06Z Shinmera: Or alternatively raise an error if your tests fail.
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2015-01-31T14:05:26Z Ralt: Shinmera: thanks for the help.
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2015-01-31T14:15:52Z flip214: what's the reason this defstruct is always incompatible with itself? http://paste.lisp.org/display/145498
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2015-01-31T14:16:50Z Xach: flip214: defstruct is allowed to use fewer indirections, which means it is faster, but less amenable to runtime redefinition
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2015-01-31T14:17:32Z Xach: an implementation could make defstruct just as slow as defclass & friends if it wanted to, to make it easier for interactive development with defstruct, but i don't know how many do
2015-01-31T14:17:34Z Shinmera: Most famously, the consequences of redefining a defstruct are undefined.
2015-01-31T14:18:59Z flip214: yeah, but an identical form should even keep the memory layout identical ...
2015-01-31T14:19:12Z flip214: I guess I'm underestimating how smart compilers have to be nowadays.
2015-01-31T14:19:22Z nyef: The first several times that I corrupted a CMUCL or SBCL process into unusability, it was from redefining defstructs.
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2015-01-31T14:20:58Z Xach: flip214: i think it would be nice if that happened. i wonder if there are any roadblocks other than effort.
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2015-01-31T16:13:26Z wasamasa is now known as {{{
2015-01-31T16:13:33Z {{{ is now known as }}}
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2015-01-31T16:55:15Z nydel: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9979229/ i'm having trouble accessing slots in stream class objects made using usocket, anyone know why it's doing the error in the pastebin there & how i fix it?
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2015-01-31T16:56:38Z Xach: nydel: the name is not CL-USER::ELEMENT-TYPE
2015-01-31T16:56:58Z nydel: i tried sb-sys:element-type too
2015-01-31T16:57:03Z nydel: is that also wrong
2015-01-31T16:57:08Z Xach: nydel: If you got an error, yes.
2015-01-31T16:57:10Z nydel: with two ::
2015-01-31T16:57:33Z nydel: how can i figure out where it is? it's not usocket, hmmm
2015-01-31T16:58:06Z Xach: nydel: you could use the standard function (stream-element-type stream)
2015-01-31T16:58:21Z Xach: That would avoid all kinds of implementation-specific hair
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2015-01-31T17:00:01Z nydel: Xach: for some reason i kept trying (element-type stream) instead of (stream-element-type stream) that was the problem
2015-01-31T17:00:38Z nydel: just been looking at the words stream, socket, etc for so long it gets easy for me to lose track of something so simple/basic like that
2015-01-31T17:00:39Z Xach: I forgot about it, but it was pretty clear after (apropos "element-type")
2015-01-31T17:00:41Z nydel: thanks
2015-01-31T17:00:56Z Xach: I am a little surprised that the slot name does not show up in apropos
2015-01-31T17:01:38Z nydel: it does for me (with usocket and flexi-streams loaded in sbcl)
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2015-01-31T17:02:50Z Xach: Did you start fresh? Or are those symbols from your experiments with slot-value?
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2015-01-31T17:04:57Z nydel: ah. experiments.
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2015-01-31T17:12:48Z nydel: this multi-user repl project - i'm trying to make it compatible with telnet. mostly that means using binary streams instead of (or in addition to?) sockets of element-type character. or can flexi change a stream's element type momentarily? hmmm
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2015-01-31T17:22:11Z Xach: i think binary streams underneath are the way to go, then use something else to convert text sequences as needed
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2015-01-31T17:25:16Z nydel: yeah that seems to be the way to go definitely even if it involves an absurd amount of rewriting
2015-01-31T17:26:26Z Xach: rewriting what?
2015-01-31T17:27:22Z nydel: apparently almost nothing actually, thanks to flexi-streams (to which i was just introduced)
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2015-01-31T17:28:38Z nydel: now i /should/ be able to turn off echo at the remote terminal, here's hoping..
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2015-01-31T18:55:43Z jackdaniel: hmph, who is current maintainer of ecl?
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2015-01-31T18:56:25Z jackdaniel assumes nobody, but not 100% sure
2015-01-31T18:58:27Z Xach: nobody
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2015-01-31T19:00:58Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-01-31T19:05:00Z Shinmera: Halleluyah! Parasol starts up again, now using the new Qtools https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TXpJMw==
2015-01-31T19:05:37Z nyef: Shinmera: Congratulations.
2015-01-31T19:05:50Z Shinmera: Took me the entire day.
2015-01-31T19:06:14Z nyef: ... you're running ECB?
2015-01-31T19:06:23Z Shinmera: Yes
2015-01-31T19:06:28Z nyef: How's that working for you?
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2015-01-31T19:06:42Z Shinmera: I only use it for the project/file browser.
2015-01-31T19:06:47Z nyef: Ahh.
2015-01-31T19:06:48Z Shinmera: And for that it's working just fine.
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2015-01-31T19:07:28Z nyef: The one time I tried to use ECB I pointed it at some C code that I had, and it came up with spectacularly nonsensical results for what functions were in it.
2015-01-31T19:07:49Z nyef: (It thought that there were something like 128 functions named DEFOP, all returning int.)
2015-01-31T19:09:07Z Shinmera: One of the most jarring things for me when I switched from NetBeans to emacs was not having a project and file browser. ECB was the first thing I came across that didn't look and feel like ass. I've never bothered to find a more slime solution since.
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2015-01-31T19:09:54Z Shinmera: *slim
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2015-01-31T19:13:50Z Shinmera: Ah, finally. https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TXpJNQ== Now I can put Parasol behind me again for a few months.
2015-01-31T19:14:29Z Xach: looks insufficiently like motif. also where are the Courier fonts.
2015-01-31T19:14:33Z eudoxia: Shinmera: you know what other meme you should add
2015-01-31T19:14:39Z eudoxia: a brush of sleeping richard stallman
2015-01-31T19:15:04Z Shinmera: I'd welcome a pull request for that.
2015-01-31T19:15:29Z Shinmera: Xach: I'm sure you could write a Qt theme to make it look great.
2015-01-31T19:16:07Z Shinmera: Also, I was (hopefully) joking about leaving Parasol again. I really should get some work done on it.
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2015-01-31T19:27:51Z BitPuffin: hey, I was just wondering something, I'm no lisp expert and I haven't macro'd much. I was just wondering, doesn't macros invert order of evaluation. Ie, if I call a macro inside of a macro, doesn't the outer macro run first?
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2015-01-31T19:28:03Z vanila: yes thats correct
2015-01-31T19:28:25Z vanila: normal lisp is evaluated from the inside first (strict)  but macros start at the very outside (lazy)
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2015-01-31T19:28:33Z BitPuffin: yep
2015-01-31T19:28:35Z BitPuffin: okay cool
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2015-01-31T19:28:50Z BitPuffin: then my language's macros doesn't break macro programming
2015-01-31T19:28:52Z BitPuffin: :P
2015-01-31T19:29:10Z BitPuffin: thanks for answering
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2015-01-31T19:29:44Z vanila: :)
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2015-01-31T19:36:39Z taspat: hi, do use cl-gd library for resizing an image?
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2015-01-31T19:40:23Z ejbs: taspat: I don't think GD can be used for that
2015-01-31T19:40:33Z Shinmera: If you only need to resize and have imagemagick on your host, try https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-thumbnail
2015-01-31T19:41:02Z ejbs: There's OptiCL
2015-01-31T19:41:17Z ejbs: https://github.com/slyrus/opticl
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2015-01-31T19:41:54Z ejbs: And here's an example that shows how to resize stuff: http://www.cyrusharmon.org/static/opticl-examples/opticl-examples.xhtml
2015-01-31T19:43:27Z taspat: great
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2015-01-31T20:01:48Z maxade: so correct me if im wrong. but in Lisp you can make up your own syntax? so I could make it so that (1 -> string) means return the string version of 1?
2015-01-31T20:01:55Z maxade: or does it still have to be
2015-01-31T20:01:59Z maxade: (-> 1 string)
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2015-01-31T20:04:01Z nyef: You could make (1 -> string) do what you want, but you'd have to establish a context within which it would happen. It'd definitely be "against the grain".
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2015-01-31T20:05:34Z Shinmera: You can make it do whatever you want, but usually you'll want to preserve prefix syntax.
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2015-01-31T20:06:23Z Shinmera: Well that was quick.
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2015-01-31T20:56:13Z drmeister: maxade: Infix notation always ends in tears.  Become familiar with prefix notation - you will grow to love it.
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2015-01-31T20:56:36Z Shinmera: He's long gone
2015-01-31T20:56:46Z drmeister: Yeah - I just noticed that.
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2015-01-31T20:56:59Z Shinmera: Become familiar with tab completion - you will grow to love it. ;)
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2015-01-31T21:38:43Z hellofunk: /topic\
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2015-01-31T23:56:01Z taspat: hi
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2015-01-31T23:56:43Z taspat: i dont get why this (cons 1 (cons 2 3)) does not return a point after 1 in its print result
2015-01-31T23:57:44Z nyef: Why would (list* 1 2 3) have a point after 1 when printed?
2015-01-31T23:58:07Z taspat: what are you talking?
2015-01-31T23:58:08Z nyef: The point is only used when the CDR is *not* a CONS cell.
2015-01-31T23:58:30Z taspat: nyef
2015-01-31T23:58:33Z taspat: ok thanks!
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