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2015-01-24T00:00:17Z jasom: http://www.iqool.de/lispstick.html <-- that's more recent than any lisp-in-a-box for windows that I know of
2015-01-24T00:00:18Z Lokathor: the remote shell is to a raspberry pi though, so it's a hair slow after all
2015-01-24T00:02:24Z antonv: Lokathor: CCL and notepad+ is all you need for your first lisp program
2015-01-24T00:02:55Z Lokathor: antonv: what's CCL?
2015-01-24T00:03:01Z Xach: clozure common lisp.
2015-01-24T00:03:20Z Lokathor: that's a particular compiler i take it?
2015-01-24T00:03:27Z jasom: Lokathor: what antonv says is true, but once you are writing non-trivial programs, it will be worht it to try and upgarde your satckl
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2015-01-24T00:03:53Z Xach: it's a common lisp environment. the compiler is one part of the environment.
2015-01-24T00:04:11Z Lokathor: right now my serious programs are made in haskell, but sometimes you need to take a break from the main language you work in, so i'm looking into lisp
2015-01-24T00:04:21Z antonv: guyes, don't confuse him, let him to start program
2015-01-24T00:04:25Z jasom: Xach: are any of the IDE features available on non OS X systems?
2015-01-24T00:04:43Z Xach: jasom: No.
2015-01-24T00:04:54Z Lokathor: antonv: Don't worry i'm following along fine so far :3
2015-01-24T00:05:01Z Xach: antonv: it doesn't really work like that.
2015-01-24T00:05:06Z p_l: jasom: it's possible to build them, afaik, but it's not simple and requires significant work
2015-01-24T00:05:36Z antonv: Xach: forks for me...
2015-01-24T00:05:39Z antonv: works
2015-01-24T00:06:10Z Xach: antonv: I mean, "don't help people the way you want, help them the way i want" isn't really how irc (or the internet) works.
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2015-01-24T00:06:15Z antonv: I am now writting a javascript program, and emacs is constantly inserts 4 space indentation, and I am constantly changing it to 2 spaces manuall :))
2015-01-24T00:06:25Z antonv: ah
2015-01-24T00:06:37Z Xach: At best you can suggest and attempt to persuade. That can go a long way.
2015-01-24T00:07:32Z nyef: antonv: I know for C that I can M-: (setq c-basic-offset 4) to get a "sane" indent level. Perhaps there's something similar for javascript?
2015-01-24T00:07:37Z antonv: well, I am just helping to help
2015-01-24T00:07:42Z Shinmera: Xach: Fixed. A careless typo snuck its way past me.
2015-01-24T00:07:58Z Xach: Shinmera: hooray
2015-01-24T00:07:59Z antonv: nyef: thanks, I'll try
2015-01-24T00:08:13Z Xach: Shinmera: pushed?
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2015-01-24T00:08:58Z Shinmera: in a second, having brief git issues
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2015-01-24T00:09:20Z Shinmera: Ok, pushed
2015-01-24T00:11:45Z Xach: much better
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2015-01-24T00:13:24Z Shinmera hasn't had any time for coding today, wasted it all (and still is) on reinstalling his workstation
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2015-01-24T00:22:25Z emaczen: If you have a function of one argument you can usually do: (mapcar #'fname some-list)
2015-01-24T00:23:14Z emaczen: What if your function has two arguments and you want to use the same second argument -- is there some convenient way of doing this instead of wrapping it up in a (lambda ... )
2015-01-24T00:23:32Z nyef: Is that second argument a constant value?
2015-01-24T00:23:40Z emaczen: nyef: yep
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2015-01-24T00:23:55Z nyef: (mapcar #'fname some-list #1=(constant-value . #1#))
2015-01-24T00:24:06Z nyef: No, I'm not joking.
2015-01-24T00:24:43Z antonv: emaczen: go with lambda
2015-01-24T00:24:59Z emaczen: antonv: Yeah... if you have to do all that you might as well use lambda
2015-01-24T00:25:07Z antonv: :))
2015-01-24T00:25:19Z nyef: I'd go with the lambda too, FWIW. (-:
2015-01-24T00:25:25Z antonv: No, there are libraries for that, various lambda-wrapping macros
2015-01-24T00:25:40Z antonv: BTW, I've been recently programming with Clojure, I really like their #( ) read macro
2015-01-24T00:26:16Z AeroNotix: #() is more useful than people thin
2015-01-24T00:26:17Z emaczen: antonv: How does #() -- I do a little clojure hacking when I have time :)
2015-01-24T00:26:17Z AeroNotix: think
2015-01-24T00:26:26Z emaczen: How does #() work*
2015-01-24T00:26:36Z AeroNotix: emaczen: it's a reader macro which turns the expression into a lambda
2015-01-24T00:26:55Z emaczen: AeroNotix: Cool!
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2015-01-24T00:27:04Z antonv: emaczen: several libraries in Common Lisp have similar macro
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2015-01-24T00:27:22Z antonv: But I think the CLojure's is the most convenient
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2015-01-24T00:30:39Z emaczen: defclass class-name ({superclass-name}*) ({slot-specifier}*) [[class-option]] -- can someone explain what this documentation means
2015-01-24T00:30:56Z emaczen: specifically, I want to know what the {}* is
2015-01-24T00:31:11Z Bicyclidine: {optional} and * is a kleene star (meaning "zero or more"), it's EBNF
2015-01-24T00:31:39Z Bicyclidine: so (slot1 slot2), (), and (slot3) all match ({slot-specifier}*)
2015-01-24T00:31:52Z Bicyclidine: (or would, if slot1 was a slot specifier)
2015-01-24T00:32:13Z emaczen: So the brackets are part of ebnf?
2015-01-24T00:32:20Z jasom: clhs 1.4.1.2
2015-01-24T00:32:20Z specbot: Modified BNF Syntax: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_dab.htm
2015-01-24T00:32:29Z jasom: emaczen: see that for more details
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2015-01-24T00:38:56Z Lokathor: jasom: Lisp In A Box and Lipstick seem to be nearly the same, on the surface. Except Lipstick leaves the scratch buffer open
2015-01-24T00:39:10Z jasom: Lokathor: fair enough
2015-01-24T00:39:43Z Lokathor: I guess Lipstick is using a 2013 version of SLIME instead of the 2011 version though
2015-01-24T00:40:04Z jasom: Lokathor: here's part of a draft blog post about how I used to develop using a different editor; it's written for linux, but should be mostly the same once slime is setup
2015-01-24T00:40:07Z jasom: https://blog.jasom.org//post/develop_lisp_with_any_editor/#getting-started-using-sl
2015-01-24T00:40:58Z jasom: oh, you'll wnt to read the part titled "A quick minimum emacs survival note" which is near the top too
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2015-01-24T00:42:10Z emaczen: jasom: Thanks for the URL it's really helping me out!
2015-01-24T00:42:55Z emaczen: jasom: I know about CFGs but I have never applied my knowledge of them to use programming language syntax :)
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2015-01-24T00:48:58Z Lokathor: jasom: I'm still not clear on what SLIME is... so it's an IDE with a REPL built on top of an Emacs instance?
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2015-01-24T00:49:43Z p_l: essentially
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2015-01-24T00:50:44Z jasom: Lokathor: yes.  Anything that calls itself an IDE for a dynamic language will have a REPL
2015-01-24T00:51:12Z Lokathor: okay
2015-01-24T00:51:49Z jasom: And with lisp, since it uses incremental compilation, you will tend to spend a lot more time in the REPL than with other languages
2015-01-24T00:51:54Z Lokathor: i've never used an IDE on a dynamic language before honesly.. haskell and python both have a REPL, but very poor IDE support; java has killer IDE support, no REPL to speak of.
2015-01-24T00:52:08Z jasom: quickbasic was the first I used I think
2015-01-24T00:52:45Z jasom: I had been using gwbasic previously to that; was a big step up...
2015-01-24T00:52:54Z Lokathor: question: when using the REPL in slime, if i make a new definition within the REPL instead of in my file, does it have a facility to write that new definnition back into a file on disk later when i decide it's useful?
2015-01-24T00:53:17Z Lokathor: or do you mostly edit the file and use :reload a lot?
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2015-01-24T00:53:50Z jasom: Lokathor: I cut-and-paste when I do that; type "(defun" followed by M-p and you will get the last defun you typed in
2015-01-24T00:54:23Z jasom: Lokathor: that doesn't mean there isn't a feature to do what you are saying... SLIME is big, so I only have used a fairly small fraction of the features
2015-01-24T00:55:31Z p_l: there's compile-current-file and -current-form
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2015-01-24T00:56:09Z jasom: Lokathor: you can also C-x C-s to save the REPL session to a file
2015-01-24T00:56:45Z jasom: but that will include the prompts, so isn't directly runnable
2015-01-24T00:57:41Z Lokathor: hmm
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2015-01-24T00:59:48Z emaczen: jasom: Is there a way to "send" the last s-expression entered into the REPL to a file?
2015-01-24T01:00:32Z emaczen: Is there lazy evaluation in CL?
2015-01-24T01:01:00Z jasom: emaczen: not builtin, but macros let you control when forms are evaluated, so I'm sure there are libraries that do it
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2015-01-24T01:01:40Z Lokathor: i think the default is left to right evaluation of the arguments, then call the function with the fully evaluated arguments, right?
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2015-01-24T01:02:32Z jasom: Lokathor: yes
2015-01-24T01:02:36Z jasom: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.3
2015-01-24T01:02:36Z specbot: Function Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababc.htm
2015-01-24T01:02:39Z Lokathor: I remember once having someone make a deal about how lisp has a specified order of argument evaluation (unlike C)
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2015-01-24T01:03:10Z jasom: Lokathor: IIRC that's new with the ANSI standard; CLtL didn't specify the evaluation order
2015-01-24T01:05:26Z Lokathor: i guess that's just an old thing from back when people thought it would help compilers potentially decide on better code
2015-01-24T01:05:31Z jasom: but note that if one of the arguments modifies the function definition, it's not specified whether that happens before or after the function is looked up
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2015-01-24T01:06:15Z jasom: but that's something that everyone can agree is evil anyway
2015-01-24T01:09:05Z zRecursive: Anyone ever build sbcl on openbsd ? `sh make.sh --prefix=~/sbcl/ --xc-host="sbcl --disable-debugger --no-sysinit --no-userinit"` => "ln: target-arch.h: Operation not supported" on OpenBSD-5.6.
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2015-01-24T01:15:06Z nyef: zRecursive: I believe that joshe is our SBCL-on-OpenBSD person.
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2015-01-24T01:17:31Z zRecursive: nyef: The sbcl-1.1.14 in openbsd packages works great ! i just want to build a newest version
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2015-01-24T01:39:52Z Lokathor: my lisp in a box emacs won't save my settings :/
2015-01-24T01:40:04Z Xach: Don't use lisp in a box.
2015-01-24T01:40:23Z Lokathor: well that is one way around it
2015-01-24T01:41:29Z Lokathor: lipstick is giving me the same objection
2015-01-24T01:41:52Z Lokathor: when i go to save my settings, it says: Saving settings from "emacs -q" would overwrite exiting customizations
2015-01-24T01:41:58Z Lokathor: existing*
2015-01-24T01:42:54Z csziacobus: how would i use sbcl's debugger instead of slime's debugger?
2015-01-24T01:43:28Z nyef: csziacobus: There's a slime debugger command to dump back to SBCL's debugger. I forget what it is.
2015-01-24T01:43:42Z nyef: csziacobus: Or there's the option of not using slime in the first place.
2015-01-24T01:44:07Z csziacobus: nyef: true, although sbcl's default repl is kinda... bare
2015-01-24T01:44:29Z nyef: So use rlwrap, and maybe sb-aclrepl ?
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2015-01-24T01:45:03Z csziacobus: nyef: yea, although i really would like to use slime, just want to know if theres a way to use sbcl's debugger temperorily
2015-01-24T01:45:15Z nyef: Though I'll admit that I've been having thoughts about taking "lispm-style rubout handling" and some terminfo magic to get a usable REPL.
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2015-01-24T01:46:02Z nyef: Well, next time you're in sldb, use "C-h m" to get a list of commands, and look for one that will bounce the error to another debugger.
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2015-01-24T01:50:03Z Xach: csziacobus: "b" in the slime debugger, i think.
2015-01-24T01:50:49Z Xach: Lokathor: i don't know for sure, but i think if you want to customize, you need to use emacs normally, not from lispstick or lisp in a box.
2015-01-24T01:50:56Z csziacobus: Xach: yeah, i tried "B", although trying to evaluate any input afterwards freezes the buffer
2015-01-24T01:51:29Z Lokathor: Xach i think i figured it out. Lisp In A Box and Lipstick were storing their .emacs files in different places >_<
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2015-01-24T02:20:42Z pillton: Hmm. Interesting. All implementations (SBCL,CCL,CMUCL,CLISP,ABCL,ECL) have the ability to expand a type like MACROEXPAND does for macros, but not all have the equivalent of MACROEXPAND-1.
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2015-01-24T02:29:11Z Lokathor: when i exit slime, it always asks me about the active processes, and if i want to kill them anyway
2015-01-24T02:29:14Z Quadrescence: pillton, Are you writing TRIVIAL-EXPAND-TYPE?
2015-01-24T02:29:22Z Lokathor: is there a setting to just always kill them?
2015-01-24T02:30:00Z Quadrescence: pillton, If not, please do so.
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2015-01-24T02:30:12Z pillton: Yeah, I have already done it.
2015-01-24T02:30:32Z Quadrescence: Is it in a repository somewhere online?
2015-01-24T02:31:00Z pillton: No, it is in this new system I am writing. I will factor it out and put it online.
2015-01-24T02:31:52Z copec: Anyone have any stations they program to?
2015-01-24T02:32:51Z Quadrescence: copec, You mean music?
2015-01-24T02:33:00Z copec: yeah
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2015-01-24T02:34:59Z pillton: Lokathor: I only get asked that question when I quit Emacs.
2015-01-24T02:35:31Z Quadrescence: copec, I'm sure everyone listens to something that prescribes to their own taste in music.
2015-01-24T02:35:58Z Lokathor: pillton: er, right, i don't use emacs other than slime. I found a function thing for the .emacs file that blocks the question.
2015-01-24T02:36:15Z copec: sometimes I get into different genres by going at it perpendicular...like there are probably traits common to good background music for programming
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2015-01-24T02:37:44Z Quadrescence: copec, If I were you, I'd listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Rih95korc in the background
2015-01-24T02:38:58Z copec: ahaha
2015-01-24T02:39:34Z copec: I'm sort of amazed how many videos have common lisp as a theme
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2015-01-24T03:10:01Z joshe: zRecursive: that is bizarre
2015-01-24T03:10:31Z joshe: I don't have nightly builds going anymore, but I do build on sbcl regularly
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2015-01-24T03:13:05Z joshe: zRecursive: the build starts fine for me with the current git revision on openbsd/amd64 5.7-current from a couple weeks ago
2015-01-24T03:13:29Z joshe: what kind of filesystem are you trying to build it on?
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2015-01-24T03:13:52Z joshe: ln giving "operation not supported" sounds like a weird FS
2015-01-24T03:14:00Z zRecursive: FFS
2015-01-24T03:14:05Z joshe: maybe msdosfs or fuse
2015-01-24T03:14:32Z joshe: any weird mount options?
2015-01-24T03:14:35Z zRecursive: sorry, it is indeed msdosfs
2015-01-24T03:14:41Z joshe: ah, well then
2015-01-24T03:15:04Z zRecursive: i will move it to FFS
2015-01-24T03:15:21Z nyef: Mind the execute permissions when you do so.
2015-01-24T03:15:36Z joshe: I don't think you'll be able to build sbcl on that filesystem under any kind of unix :)
2015-01-24T03:16:15Z zRecursive: i ever build sbcl-1.2.7 on freebsd UFS successfully
2015-01-24T03:16:15Z nyef: Not using unpatched sources, at least.
2015-01-24T03:16:21Z joshe: yes, it would be better to do a fresh checkout or untar rather than moving, you've lost permissions by placing it on msdosfs
2015-01-24T03:16:41Z zRecursive: i see
2015-01-24T03:16:42Z joshe: but not on freebsd msdosfs, I'd bet
2015-01-24T03:17:11Z joshe: if you want a removable disk to move between OSes, I'd recommend ext2
2015-01-24T03:17:19Z pjb: FAT16
2015-01-24T03:17:25Z zRecursive: `git clone https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl` now ...
2015-01-24T03:17:33Z pjb: ext2 is totally not understood by MacOSX and MS-Windows.
2015-01-24T03:17:46Z joshe: not natively, anyway
2015-01-24T03:17:52Z nyef: If you're going to try and use a DOS filesystem to build SBCL, have a look for link_or_copy in make-config.sh.
2015-01-24T03:17:56Z pjb: (well, at least on MacOSX you could install software to be able to read it).
2015-01-24T03:18:25Z nyef: We should just all use Files-11 ODS2 as a filesystem. Surely everyone supports it by now?
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2015-01-24T03:20:41Z zRecursive: BTW, Why doesnot OpenBSD run bootstrap in maxima "cat bootstrap #!/bin/sh set -x \naclocal \nautomake --add-missing --copy \autoconf" ?  `bootstrap` will never return.
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2015-01-24T03:21:09Z joshe: no idea, I've never used maxima
2015-01-24T03:21:39Z zRecursive: Those auto* are not maxima specific ?
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2015-01-24T03:22:43Z joshe: huh?
2015-01-24T03:23:09Z zRecursive: `pkg_info -A|grep -i auto` = > autoconf-2.69p1     automatically configure source code on many Un*x platforms  \nmetaauto-1.0p1     wrapper for gnu auto*,  maybe the wrapper on OpenBSD is the problem source.
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2015-01-24T03:23:52Z joshe: the autoconf wrapper has no default version, you have to set AUTOCONF_VERSION and AUTOMAKE_VERSION
2015-01-24T03:24:54Z zRecursive: but `AUTOCONF_VERSION=2.69 AUTOMAKE_VERSION=1.9 bootstrap` never returns without any information
2015-01-24T03:25:36Z joshe: oh, I see what you mean
2015-01-24T03:25:54Z joshe: I can't see why that wouldn't output anything, if the first line of the script is set -x
2015-01-24T03:26:15Z zRecursive: weird
2015-01-24T03:26:55Z zRecursive: And the same script works great on FreeBSD
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2015-01-24T03:30:16Z joshe: wait, you are literally typing `bootstrap`
2015-01-24T03:32:15Z zRecursive: i promise there is no type error as i use "TAB" to auto input
2015-01-24T03:33:12Z zRecursive: In xterm, it is "AUTOCONF_VERSION=2.69 AUTOMAKE_VERSION=1.9 ./bootstrap \n+ aclocal" forever
2015-01-24T03:33:43Z joshe: oh, well ./bootstrap is very different than `bootstrap`
2015-01-24T03:35:00Z zRecursive: i see, now after `git clone ...`, `sh make.sh --prefix=/home/sw2wolf/sbcl/ --xc-host="sbcl --disable-debugger --no-sysinit --no-userinit"` works as expected now
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2015-01-24T03:35:51Z zRecursive: on a FFS partition
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2015-01-24T03:37:50Z burtons: is there a way to access the sb!impl package from the repl in SBCL?
2015-01-24T03:38:01Z joshe: I tried that script in the latest maxima release and it returns after a few seconds
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2015-01-24T03:40:03Z burtons: (destroy-all-packages)
2015-01-24T03:40:05Z burtons: oops
2015-01-24T03:40:10Z burtons: this isn't the repl
2015-01-24T03:40:26Z zRecursive: The maxima is the newest from git
2015-01-24T03:41:16Z joshe: how long did you want for aclocal to finish?
2015-01-24T03:41:20Z zRecursive: joshe: what's your version of anto* ?
2015-01-24T03:41:23Z joshe: perhaps the machine is just very very slow
2015-01-24T03:41:49Z zRecursive: No, it wait forever
2015-01-24T03:42:00Z joshe: I used the exact same versions as you:
2015-01-24T03:42:01Z joshe: $ AUTOCONF_VERSION=2.69 AUTOMAKE_VERSION=1.9 ./bootstrap
2015-01-24T03:42:01Z joshe: + aclocal
2015-01-24T03:42:01Z joshe: + automake --add-missing --copy
2015-01-24T03:42:04Z joshe: + autoconf
2015-01-24T03:43:47Z zRecursive: FYI, the /usr/local/bin/aclocal-1.9 is manually copied from /usr/local/bin/aclocal, do you?
2015-01-24T03:44:16Z joshe: huh?
2015-01-24T03:44:24Z joshe: no, I just used the packages
2015-01-24T03:45:10Z joshe: /usr/local/bin/aclocal is the wrapper script, if you copied it to /usr/local/bin/aclocal-1.9 then that explains it, the wrapper script would invoke the copy of itself forever
2015-01-24T03:45:50Z joshe: you should remove the copy and pkg_add autoconf automake
2015-01-24T03:45:58Z zRecursive: Without the /usr/local/bin/aclocal-1.9, `AUTOCONF_VERSION=2.69 AUTOMAKE_VERSION=1.9 ./bootstrap` will report " /usr/local/bin/aclocal-1.9: not found" here
2015-01-24T03:45:59Z joshe: then chose the appropriate versions at the prompt
2015-01-24T03:46:26Z joshe: you need to install the automake-1.9.whatever package to get aclocal-1.9
2015-01-24T03:47:02Z zRecursive: i see now, maybe i mess up openbsd packages
2015-01-24T03:47:39Z joshe: the wrapper package is confusing if you're used to package systems which only support a single version or autoconf or automake
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2015-01-24T03:55:40Z CedroK: is this programming language for fags because everyone here talks with a lisp?
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2015-01-24T04:04:38Z burtons: to answer my own question, sb!impl in the SBCL source code is the sb-impl package from the repl
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2015-01-24T04:09:05Z nyef: burtons: Sorry, didn't see your question in amongst all of the other text. Yes, there's a build step (part of make-host-2) that renames all packages starting with SB! to start with SB-. This happens well after SB!XC is renamed to COMMON-LISP.
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2015-01-24T04:29:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-01-24T04:29:34Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-01-24T04:32:21Z JuanDaugherty: yello lispers
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2015-01-24T04:33:01Z beach: Hello JuanDaugherty.
2015-01-24T04:33:06Z JuanDaugherty: anybody know if there's cleaned up version of the Babylon expert system code?
2015-01-24T04:33:28Z JuanDaugherty: someplace did something in '05 but dunno just what at the CL level
2015-01-24T04:34:02Z JuanDaugherty: ("The AI Workbench Babylon", Christaller, et. al.)
2015-01-24T04:34:45Z JuanDaugherty: it's all pre CLOS weirdings
2015-01-24T04:35:07Z JuanDaugherty: for stuff that should be regular OS
2015-01-24T04:35:18Z beach: Sounds like you have a project.
2015-01-24T04:35:27Z emaczen: I'm a little confused about using ASDF for modular designs (i.e. when do I need a package.lisp and a system-name.asd file in each module and at the system root directory)
2015-01-24T04:36:13Z JuanDaugherty: beach, yeah but tryin' not to have that particular one
2015-01-24T04:36:38Z antonv: emaczen: your are right, you are confused
2015-01-24T04:36:55Z antonv: emaczen: there is no requirement for package.lisp
2015-01-24T04:36:57Z beach: emaczen: There is no general rule.  It depends on how complex your system is and how it is structured.
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2015-01-24T04:37:26Z emaczen: For now I want it structured to have a root with 4 modules
2015-01-24T04:37:55Z emaczen: all 4 modules will be located in the same directory
2015-01-24T04:38:22Z beach: emaczen: What is a "module" to you?
2015-01-24T04:38:23Z emaczen: there will be a root.asd that contains the package name and the defsystem form that lays out all the dependencies
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2015-01-24T04:39:05Z emaczen: I want a module to be one concern in my project
2015-01-24T04:39:23Z emaczen: from the software principle "separation of concerns"
2015-01-24T04:39:44Z beach: Then, typically, each module has its own package definition.
2015-01-24T04:39:47Z emaczen: I'm also using the :module key as a component to the root defsystem
2015-01-24T04:40:46Z beach: How many files are there in each module?
2015-01-24T04:41:10Z emaczen: beach: right now I only have 1 or 2 but that could easily become like 8 (I'm just starting)
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2015-01-24T04:41:30Z beach: Then I would put each module in a separate directory.
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2015-01-24T04:41:58Z beach: And I would make a .asd for each module, but that's just me.  I do that so that I can reuse the module in other applications.
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2015-01-24T04:42:11Z beach: Then I just have to say :depends-on <module> and I am in business.
2015-01-24T04:42:40Z beach: Again, that's just me.  I don't know what others do.
2015-01-24T04:42:42Z emaczen: beach: so I will have a .asd and a package.lisp for each module?
2015-01-24T04:43:06Z beach: That's what I do.
2015-01-24T04:43:26Z beach: Definitely a package.lisp for each module if they are modules like you say.
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2015-01-24T04:44:03Z beach: I suggest a .asd file for each module that is mildly reusable so that you can easily build just that module in other applications.
2015-01-24T04:44:33Z emaczen: beach: Thanks! I didn't know that making a .asd file would allow me to just compile that module and allow for easier reuse
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2015-01-24T04:45:15Z beach: Yeah, then it becomes an independent system (in ASDF terminology) and you can just say :DEPENDS-ON in another ASDF system definitions.
2015-01-24T04:45:21Z beach: s/s//
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2015-01-24T04:45:56Z emaczen: So .asd is a recursive acronym? lol
2015-01-24T04:46:08Z emaczen: I know what asdf stands for
2015-01-24T04:46:45Z emaczen: beach: Do you ever combine .asd and package.lisp files into one file?
2015-01-24T04:46:56Z beach: I don't know whether ASD is a recursive acronym.
2015-01-24T04:47:09Z beach: No.
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2015-01-24T04:47:42Z beach: I define the .asd file in the package ASDF-USER and the DEFPACKAGE in COMMON-LISP-USER
2015-01-24T04:48:05Z emaczen: beach: which .asd file? The root one?
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2015-01-24T04:48:45Z beach: According to the ASDF manual, you should do (in-package #:asdf-user) (defsystem ...)
2015-01-24T04:48:59Z beach: For every system definition.
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2015-01-24T04:49:24Z beach: It is considered best practice to have a single (IN-PACKAGE ...) in a file close to the beginning.
2015-01-24T04:49:29Z emaczen: beach: do you have any public repos I could look at?
2015-01-24T04:49:41Z beach: A few.  Hold on...
2015-01-24T04:50:01Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh
2015-01-24T04:50:40Z beach: They are not all in perfect condition.
2015-01-24T04:50:57Z beach: And the ASDF-USER thing is recent, so I haven't used it everywhere yet.
2015-01-24T04:51:28Z emaczen: beach: that's fine -- I like the second climacs project :)
2015-01-24T04:51:36Z beach: Thanks!
2015-01-24T04:51:54Z beach: 2.0 sounded so boring.
2015-01-24T04:52:15Z emaczen: I was talking in #emacs last week about backends for emacs-lisp
2015-01-24T04:52:30Z beach: "backends"?
2015-01-24T04:52:58Z emaczen: It seems like the concensus is to sue GUILE scheme as the runtime for emacs-lisp
2015-01-24T04:53:03Z emaczen: use* GUILE
2015-01-24T04:53:12Z beach: Yeah, seems that way. :(
2015-01-24T04:53:40Z White_Flame: guile is supposed to be the embedded extension language for GNU projects in general, isn't it?
2015-01-24T04:53:49Z beach: Indeed.
2015-01-24T04:53:58Z emaczen: White_Flame: Yes -- that's a good reason for it I guess
2015-01-24T04:54:35Z emaczen: A lot of other people said CL hasn't updated any standards since the early 90s as well
2015-01-24T04:54:58Z beach: Er, GUILE doesn't even HAVE a standard.
2015-01-24T04:55:26Z emaczen: beach: RMS apparently doesn't like CL for some reason either...
2015-01-24T04:55:33Z beach: Since when did it become a disadvantage to have a standard?  I really don't understand how people think.
2015-01-24T04:55:38Z beach: That I know.
2015-01-24T04:56:13Z beach: He can decide what he wants for his software of course.  But the argument about updated standard is completely bogus.
2015-01-24T04:56:24Z beach: The same people seem to gladly use languages without one.
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2015-01-24T04:59:37Z emaczen: beach: I was under the impression that they are afraid that they can't "change" the language
2015-01-24T04:59:59Z emaczen: beach: I don't really know what that means though since Lisp is flexible
2015-01-24T05:00:06Z beach: Maybe that's true, but they don't need to change the standard to have the stuff they want.
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2015-01-24T05:00:26Z beach: The same people also use a "single-implementation" language.
2015-01-24T05:00:49Z beach: So what is wrong with picking a Common Lisp implementation that has all the stuff they want and pretend the standard doesn't exist.
2015-01-24T05:00:59Z beach: Then they will be EXACTLY in the situation they are now.
2015-01-24T05:01:14Z beach: Like I said, I don't understand how people think.
2015-01-24T05:01:15Z emaczen: beach: hahaha
2015-01-24T05:01:49Z emaczen: beach: If you won over enough people with the second-climacs maybe they would change their minds?
2015-01-24T05:02:28Z beach: Actually, I don't care about changing people's minds anymore.  It turns out to be very hard.  But I really hate to listen to bogus arguments.
2015-01-24T05:02:37Z drmeister: Hello
2015-01-24T05:02:45Z beach: Hey drmeister.
2015-01-24T05:05:49Z drmeister: Hey beach.  I'm still working through bugs to get clasp building fully (sigh).
2015-01-24T05:06:00Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I read the logs. :)
2015-01-24T05:09:09Z drmeister: Oh fascinating - I just found that my main Lisp object that maintains the entire environment is being finalized and garbage collected while I'm compiling code - that's just great.   Maybe I broke my static analyzer.
2015-01-24T05:09:33Z beach: Oops!
2015-01-24T05:10:04Z drmeister: Yeah - I upgraded to the latest llvm/clang - they made a lot of changes over the past couple of months.  Stuff breaks.
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2015-01-24T05:11:01Z beach: emaczen: These days, I write stuff for my own pleasure.  I am lucky that my activity has enough positive spin-offs that I can count it as my work as well, and thus justify my salary.  If other people like it and want to use it, that's great.  If not, I am certainly not going to try to convince them.
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2015-01-24T05:13:29Z emaczen: beach: That's awesome! and yeah i've unfortunately realized a similar thing considering when I learned how to use emacs and was so excited and I still haven't convinecd anyone to use emacs...
2015-01-24T05:14:31Z beach: emaczen: Yes, been there, done that.  The only thing I know that works is to shut up and show that you are more productive than the others.  Then some people who care about that will come and ask spontaneously.
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2015-01-24T05:20:10Z beach: drmeister: Good news for you though.  Once I implement all the optimizations that I now know how to do in Cleavir, you can build yourself a very good compiler for Clasp :).  My latest thing is that I think I know how to do "loop unswitching".
2015-01-24T05:20:29Z drmeister: What is that?
2015-01-24T05:20:52Z beach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_unswitching
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2015-01-24T05:21:58Z drmeister: I see.
2015-01-24T05:22:09Z drmeister: Excellent.
2015-01-24T05:22:26Z beach: drmeister: But I got the impression that #lisp participants got bored when I blabbed about it too much, so I won't elaborate. :)
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2015-01-24T05:23:32Z drmeister: People want to eat sausage, they don't want to know how it's made.  After making a lot of my own lousy sausage, I appreciate how it's made.
2015-01-24T05:23:51Z beach: Interesting analogy.
2015-01-24T05:24:12Z beach: Actually, I once worked in a sausage factory... :)
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2015-01-24T05:25:11Z drmeister: I'm being somewhat disingenuous for the sake of a fun analogy.  I find people in #lisp have a very broad interests.
2015-01-24T05:25:19Z beach: It is not quite true what you say though.  Here in #lisp there are some very smart and some very knowledgeable people (some are both).  And some of them care a lot about how it is made.
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2015-01-24T05:25:32Z beach: Yeh.
2015-01-24T05:25:36Z beach: Yeah.
2015-01-24T05:25:40Z drmeister: Ha - jinx.
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2015-01-24T05:26:26Z beach: I find #lisp is one of my most valuable research resources.
2015-01-24T05:26:51Z drmeister: Ditto.  I wouldn't be anywhere near as far as I am without #lisp.
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2015-01-24T05:41:38Z beach: drmeister: Are you planning to submit a paper to ELS?
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2015-01-24T05:47:45Z drmeister: I don't think so - I can't afford the flights at the moment.
2015-01-24T05:47:54Z beach: Too bad.
2015-01-24T05:48:01Z beach: Still having funding problems?
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2015-01-24T05:49:33Z drmeister: Well, the same funding problems.  These things change on an 8-month to 1 year time-scale.
2015-01-24T05:50:08Z beach: I see.  A complete waste of energy that could go to something more productive.
2015-01-24T05:50:23Z beach: I recommend you read a book called "The Dream Machine".
2015-01-24T05:51:00Z emaczen: beach: Where do modules get imported? Is this all handled when you specify dependencies via "depends-on"
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2015-01-24T05:51:21Z beach: drmeister: It's about J C Licklider and how he funded research.
2015-01-24T05:51:30Z beach: emaczen: Yes.
2015-01-24T05:52:06Z beach: emaczen: The are "loaded" then in Lisp terminology.
2015-01-24T05:52:12Z beach: ... and ASDF terminology.
2015-01-24T05:52:43Z beach: drmeister: http://www.amazon.com/The-Dream-Machine-Licklider-Revolution/dp/0670899763
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2015-01-24T05:53:17Z beach: drmeister: Much of what he funded is essential technology today.
2015-01-24T05:53:43Z emaczen: beach: you mentioned earlier that it is best practice (as of recent) to put an (in-package :common-lisp-user) for each .asd -- what is the reasoning behind this?
2015-01-24T05:53:55Z beach: No, I said ASDF-USER.
2015-01-24T05:54:13Z beach: It is an ASDF convention.
2015-01-24T05:54:28Z drmeister: Thanks - I'll take a look at it.
2015-01-24T05:54:32Z beach: I use COMMON-LISP-USER for my package definition.
2015-01-24T05:55:52Z beach: emaczen: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-defsystem-form.html#The-defsystem-form
2015-01-24T05:56:16Z beach: emaczen: "The file starts with an in-package form for package asdf-user. Quick summary: just do this,..."
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2015-01-24T05:57:27Z burtons: Anybody care to give this a try and tell me if your executables still work? https://gist.github.com/burtonsamograd/f08f561264ff94391300
2015-01-24T05:57:42Z emaczen: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-defsystem-form.html#The-defsystem-form
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2015-01-24T05:58:15Z beach: emaczen: Yes, I think that's the one I gave you.
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2015-01-24T05:59:23Z emaczen: beach: I assume that exports in package.lisp are what can be used when a package depends on another package?
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2015-01-24T06:00:35Z beach: emaczen: Hold on.  SYSTEMS depend on other systems.  Packages don't depend on other packages like that.
2015-01-24T06:00:45Z emaczen: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-defsystem-form.html#The-defsystem-form
2015-01-24T06:00:56Z emaczen: ignore that URL
2015-01-24T06:01:12Z emaczen: For some reason I can't seem to delete it when I accidentally paste it into this buffer...
2015-01-24T06:01:31Z beach: emaczen: The exports of a package are the symbols that are part of the public protocol for the module in question.
2015-01-24T06:02:48Z burtons: it's a basic tree shaker for SBCL, btw
2015-01-24T06:03:50Z emaczen: How do exports tie into 'depends-on'?
2015-01-24T06:05:39Z beach: emaczen: They don't.  Loading an ASDF system will typically create one or more packages.  So when the system being depended on is loaded by :DEPENDS-ON, you know the package is being created.  If the package is being created with DEFPACKAGE, that's where the exported symbols are mentioned.
2015-01-24T06:07:55Z emaczen: beach: what are the exported symbols generally used for then?
2015-01-24T06:08:00Z emaczen: I don't follow
2015-01-24T06:08:05Z beach: Hmm.
2015-01-24T06:08:44Z beach: A module consists of an "interface" and an "implementation".  The "interface" is the functionality that is used by clients of that module.
2015-01-24T06:09:12Z beach: The names of entities such as functions, classes, variables, etc that are meant to be used by client code are exported.
2015-01-24T06:09:36Z beach: The DEFPACKAGE form of the module therefore mentions them as being exported.
2015-01-24T06:10:12Z beach: Except in Common Lisp we use the words "protocol" rather than "interface".
2015-01-24T06:10:43Z emaczen: beach: Good to know -- I was confused by that terminology earlier
2015-01-24T06:11:10Z White_Flame: ASDF only cares that the system (and the packages it creates) are there.  It doesn't consider exported symbols at all
2015-01-24T06:11:17Z emaczen: beach: where do these functions/classes/variables end up and how are they imported by other systems?
2015-01-24T06:12:20Z emaczen: or "implemented" by other modules
2015-01-24T06:12:23Z beach: emaczen: Common Lisp doesn't have a module system, so those entities are globally defined.  However, their names are symbols and symbols belong to packages.
2015-01-24T06:12:43Z White_Flame: If a system which defines package "foo" is loaded by asdf, then the symbol foo:function is available to use by any code in the lisp image
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2015-01-24T06:13:32Z beach: emaczen: What White_Flame said.
2015-01-24T06:13:37Z White_Flame: any foo:whatever symbol becomes available, since the package was loaded, and the symbol was declared as exported by foo
2015-01-24T06:13:41Z emaczen: White_Flame: Cool, that makes sense
2015-01-24T06:14:31Z emaczen: White_Flame: In Java you could import foo and then acces whatever is there anything analogous?
2015-01-24T06:14:46Z White_Flame: package :use clauses
2015-01-24T06:14:54Z emaczen: ahhh
2015-01-24T06:15:12Z beach: I recommend against :USE of anything but very standardized stuff though.
2015-01-24T06:15:21Z White_Flame: if foo exports the symbol bar (normally foo:bar), if the package your code is in :uses the foo package, then you can just reference bar and it will use the bar from package foo
2015-01-24T06:15:35Z beach: These days, I only :USE the COMMON-LISP package.
2015-01-24T06:15:38Z White_Flame: right.  It's best to have short package nicknames and use those everywhere
2015-01-24T06:15:46Z White_Flame: explicitly
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2015-01-24T06:16:45Z White_Flame: for instance, when using bordeaux-threads, I use bt:make-thread or whatever the function is rather than using the bt package
2015-01-24T06:17:03Z beach: emaczen: The reason for that "rule" is the following: Assume you :USE some random package created by someone else.  Then you load a new version of what that someone else created, and in the new version there are additional exported symbols.  Now you can very well have a name clash in your application with some of your own names.
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2015-01-24T06:18:32Z beach: I also find that it is more obvious when I read the code where the symbol comes from if it has an explicit package prefix, and if it has none, I then know that it is in the package mentioned in the IN-PACKAGE form.
2015-01-24T06:29:33Z emaczen: beach: That's smart, I'll try that
2015-01-24T06:29:33Z emaczen:  
2015-01-24T06:30:01Z emaczen: I feel like I am sorta going in circles... Now what exactly does "depends-on" do? Is it just for defining the build order?
2015-01-24T06:30:27Z zRecursive: Why do i need to (quit) many times to build maxima using SBCL ?  FYI, both ECL and CCL donot need to (quit).
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2015-01-24T06:56:46Z beach: emaczen: DEPENDS-ON <mumble> says "In order for this ASDF system to be built, the system <mumble> has to be built first."
2015-01-24T06:57:22Z beach: emaczen: So yes, it determines the order in which systems can be built.
2015-01-24T06:58:38Z beach: zRecursive: What do you mean by (quit)?  What makes it necessary to do that?
2015-01-24T06:59:47Z White_Flame: emaczen: and not only does it declare build order, it tells it what to pull in.  If system foo depends on system bar, but there's no depends-on, loading foo won't know to load bar.
2015-01-24T06:59:50Z beach: zRecursive: It is entirely possible that Maxima uses some features that are not defined by the standard, and that SBCL is just more picky than the others in verifying them.  I wouldn't be surprised for instance if Maxima would do (SETQ VAR) without first defining VAR.
2015-01-24T07:00:43Z beach: emaczen: What White_Flame says.  When I said "build" I meant "compile and load".
2015-01-24T07:00:45Z zRecursive: beach: It seems i misunderstand it. It will continue running after a few seconds.
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2015-01-24T07:01:22Z beach: zRecursive: Is Maxima officially maintained?
2015-01-24T07:01:53Z zRecursive: i am using git version which is actively developed
2015-01-24T07:02:00Z beach: Great!
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2015-01-24T07:15:09Z zRecursive: `sh make.sh --prefix=~/sbcl/ --xc-host="sbcl --disable-debugger --no-sysinit --no-userinit"` on OpenBSD => maximum interrupt nesting depth (1024) exceeded ...
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2015-01-24T07:19:18Z beach: zRecursive: What are all those flags for?
2015-01-24T07:26:04Z zRecursive: beach: i want to build the newest SBCL using the running sbcl
2015-01-24T07:26:57Z zRecursive: The running SBCL is sbcl-1.1.14 from OpenBSD packages repo.
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2015-01-24T07:42:08Z beach: Updated version of the rewrite optimizations here: http://metamodular.com/Rewrite/rewrite.html
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2015-01-24T08:39:33Z beach: Suppose we have a LOOP with a COLLECT clause (no INTO).  It would be advantageous to allocate a sentinel to avoid a special case, and consequently a test in each iteration.  However, it is not "nice" to allocate a sentinel on the heap because there would then be unexpected consing.  Does (say) the SBCL compiler allocate CONS cells on the stack if given a DYNAMIC-EXTENT declaration?
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2015-01-24T08:46:19Z beach: I can't understand the output of disassemble. :(
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2015-01-24T09:13:31Z quazimodo: hello :D
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2015-01-24T09:18:39Z beach: hello quazimodo.
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2015-01-24T09:25:43Z quazimodo: how's it goin
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2015-01-24T09:25:59Z beach: Me?  Fine.  Working hard as usual.  You?
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2015-01-24T09:30:42Z beach: quazimodo: Are you still interested in movitz?
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2015-01-24T09:57:19Z theos: i am
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2015-01-24T10:12:57Z beach: theos: You are what?  Interested in Movitz?
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2015-01-24T10:36:38Z theos: beach yes i want to use/improve movitz
2015-01-24T10:37:51Z beach: Great!
2015-01-24T10:38:41Z beach: One thing to do would be to make it run on 64-bit machines.
2015-01-24T10:38:48Z oleo: jep
2015-01-24T10:38:50Z oleo: morning
2015-01-24T10:38:57Z beach: Hello oleo.
2015-01-24T10:38:59Z hitecnologys: beach: I wouldn't mind testing it as well.
2015-01-24T10:39:06Z hitecnologys: oleo: greetings.
2015-01-24T10:39:09Z beach: As I recall, it is very tied to 32-bit at the moment.
2015-01-24T10:39:16Z oleo: and implement an international keyboard as well, the one it has sucks....
2015-01-24T10:39:34Z beach: Yeah, I am not surprised.
2015-01-24T10:39:48Z beach: Movitz is really a proof-of-concept system.
2015-01-24T10:40:03Z oleo: i used it via erm, via some vm booter....
2015-01-24T10:40:08Z oleo: qemu or so
2015-01-24T10:40:18Z beach: Sure.  That's a good idea.
2015-01-24T10:40:19Z oleo: but wasn't fun because of the keyboard.....
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2015-01-24T10:40:26Z oleo: heh
2015-01-24T10:42:36Z beach: Sounds like you guys have some ideas.  How about some collaboration here?
2015-01-24T10:44:54Z oleo: well i don't have much time for it.....
2015-01-24T10:45:21Z beach: Too bad.
2015-01-24T10:45:31Z oleo: and it needs various drivers too.....
2015-01-24T10:46:06Z beach: Sure.  I would like to see a CLOS-based driver protocol inspired by IO Kit.
2015-01-24T10:46:08Z oleo: people experienced in driver software could be of help tho.....
2015-01-24T10:46:34Z beach: Of course.
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2015-01-24T10:46:50Z beach: But I think the hard part is to design the interface/protocol.
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2015-01-24T10:47:12Z beach: I mean, there is no point in copying the Unix-restricted open/close/read/write paradigm.
2015-01-24T10:47:32Z oleo: what then ?
2015-01-24T10:47:57Z hitecnologys: beach: I wish I could help but I don't have enough free time to contribute either. If there's something I could do that doesn't consume hell lots of it, I could be of some use, but it's not like I have any specific useful skill.
2015-01-24T10:48:01Z beach: Like I said, a CLOS-based protocol with a class hierarchy corresponding to the device types.
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2015-01-24T10:50:48Z beach: oleo: I assume you don't want Movitz to be a Unix-clone implemented in Lisp.
2015-01-24T10:51:01Z oleo: well, no idea.....
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2015-01-24T10:51:59Z beach: OK, I have some: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
2015-01-24T10:51:59Z oleo: i like linux.....
2015-01-24T10:52:15Z beach: oleo: OK, no point in doing anything then.
2015-01-24T10:52:28Z oleo: ?
2015-01-24T10:52:39Z oleo: what is your alternative then ?
2015-01-24T10:52:48Z beach: see that URL.
2015-01-24T10:52:50Z oleo: some mixture ?
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2015-01-24T10:52:59Z oleo: OS blend ?
2015-01-24T10:53:20Z beach: So I guess I was wrong.  You DO want a Unix clone written in Lisp.  Sorry then.  I should be quiet.
2015-01-24T10:53:35Z oleo: or something totally new ?
2015-01-24T10:53:47Z oleo: no i didn't say that ?
2015-01-24T10:54:11Z oleo: i don't know all the alternatives anyway....
2015-01-24T10:54:49Z beach: oleo: Look, Unix was designed that way because of a limited address space.  But we still live with it now that we have 64-bit machines.  And nobody seems to question the wisdom of that.  We need to revisit the decisions and see how to make them different in light of our new freedoms.
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2015-01-24T10:55:24Z beach: Furthermore, we have the ideal programming language for writing an OS.  We could do *much* better.
2015-01-24T10:55:25Z oleo: ok so you are for improving.... i have nothing against that....
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2015-01-24T10:56:12Z oleo: <- not an OS guru!
2015-01-24T10:56:16Z oleo: lol
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2015-01-24T10:57:25Z beach: oleo: I see.  Yes, well, you would have to read up on the history of OSes and the research as well.  Unfortunately, OS research is pretty dead now.  It seems even highly trained people have given up and settled for 50-year old technology.
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2015-01-24T10:58:48Z beach: theos, hitecnologys: What is your thinking about Movitz/LispOS?
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2015-01-24T10:59:40Z hitecnologys: beach: the idea seem similar to what I've wanted since I first found out what OSes were.
2015-01-24T10:59:58Z hitecnologys: beach: so, I'm totally voting for new thing. Screw the legacy.
2015-01-24T11:00:08Z beach: OK.
2015-01-24T11:00:31Z beach: And aside from "new thing", do you have any ideas about what you want?
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2015-01-24T11:02:12Z oleo: well it got developed in parallel with HW developing....
2015-01-24T11:02:37Z beach: oleo: What did?
2015-01-24T11:03:02Z oleo: if you wanted to write a mostrously generic OS wich bootstraps itself from a template system after doing a OS probe on the devices found on the HW and testing all possible paths of combinations....
2015-01-24T11:03:10Z oleo: uhh
2015-01-24T11:04:16Z hitecnologys: Well, as you've already metioned, single address space is very neat. Well-integrated and polished tag-based file system is close to what I'm feeling lack of as well. Also, there this thing that bothers me: ability to make snapshots of running programs and rollback to it whenever I want or save it permanently for futher restoring to original state.
2015-01-24T11:04:45Z beach: hitecnologys: Sounds good to me.
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2015-01-24T11:05:09Z hitecnologys: beach: I probably can make a list of things I want too, but I need to think hard.
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2015-01-24T11:06:00Z beach: hitecnologys: Nah.  Just put it on a web page somewhere and improve it as people comment on it.  That's what I do.  I mean, there is always a risk of making a fool of oneself, but that's the cost of learning in my opinion.
2015-01-24T11:06:02Z oleo: that way you  could also generate drivers which operate on a theoretic device, out of components of some other devices.....
2015-01-24T11:06:09Z oleo: man man man...
2015-01-24T11:06:17Z oleo: totally freaking....
2015-01-24T11:06:19Z oleo: lol
2015-01-24T11:06:54Z hitecnologys: beach: there are tons of things that I'm feeling not satisfied with from time to time (from several times in a year to longer periods). Of course it's not important, but if those times I had possibility to smoothly deal with them, that'd be beyond awesome.
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2015-01-24T11:07:31Z oleo: but unlimited -> constrained ....is pretty hard.....
2015-01-24T11:07:35Z hitecnologys: beach: right, will do as soon as I get current top-prioritized stuff done.
2015-01-24T11:07:47Z beach: hitecnologys: I understand.  I suggest that when one of those periods happen, you take 5 minutes to write it down somewhere.
2015-01-24T11:08:14Z beach: hitecnologys: I would definitely comment and discuss such a page.
2015-01-24T11:08:31Z hitecnologys: beach: yeah, that's what I'm planning to do if I don't forget it. I should probably put a sticker on top of my desk.
2015-01-24T11:08:50Z hitecnologys: beach: I'm sure half of my problems are already solved but that doesn't make it any less painful.
2015-01-24T11:08:56Z oleo: you'd need a senior multi OS expert for that either.....
2015-01-24T11:09:11Z oleo: and electronics and stuff....
2015-01-24T11:09:13Z beach: hitecnologys: yeah.  But then people would tell you that in their comments.
2015-01-24T11:09:14Z oleo: meh
2015-01-24T11:09:32Z beach: oleo: It's not rocket science.  It can be learned.
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2015-01-24T11:09:47Z beach: Well, so can rocket science in fact. :)
2015-01-24T11:09:54Z oleo: jep, but you'll find not many of that sort on this planet.....
2015-01-24T11:10:14Z hitecnologys: beach: that's what I'm hoping for.
2015-01-24T11:10:55Z beach: oleo: Virtually anyone can turn into one in a few years.  Just get to work.
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2015-01-24T11:17:03Z theos: beach i am looking for an AI OS in CL
2015-01-24T11:17:04Z beach: Anyway, one thing at a time for me at least.  First I'll bring SICL into a state where it can be used as the multi-user environment on top of a traditional operating system.  Then I'll look at drivers and such.
2015-01-24T11:17:10Z wasamasa: theos: a what?
2015-01-24T11:17:25Z wasamasa: theos: are you under the misconception that CL = AI?
2015-01-24T11:17:30Z beach: theos: Like HAL?
2015-01-24T11:17:49Z theos: wasamasa no thats why i mentioned AI and CL in the same line
2015-01-24T11:18:06Z wasamasa: ...
2015-01-24T11:18:11Z wasamasa: that doesn't even make any sense
2015-01-24T11:18:12Z beach: theos: What problem would such a system solve?
2015-01-24T11:19:03Z theos: beach yes HAL is a good example. i also dont want an OS written partially in CL while the main stuff is in C++ etc
2015-01-24T11:20:26Z beach: I personally want my OS to be predictable so that I can develop subconscious gestures.  I hate it when they automatically reorder entries based on use.  It means I have to stop and think every time.
2015-01-24T11:21:33Z beach: theos: HAL is not going to happen any time soon.  An OS in Lisp might.
2015-01-24T11:22:45Z theos: beach we have to start somewhere to read HAL. and if they can do incredible stuff in python and C, i am sure we can do better with CL
2015-01-24T11:22:52Z theos: read/reach
2015-01-24T11:23:51Z beach: I am sure we can do better, yes.
2015-01-24T11:23:52Z Shinmera: beach: One thing that's always bugged me is that there's a billion different ways that you have to explore to share data between applications or serialise it to disk. Though if I recall your article that would already be solved for native applications.
2015-01-24T11:24:33Z beach: Shinmera: Yes, indeed.  Pass a pointer to the other application.  Problem solved.
2015-01-24T11:25:01Z beach: Shinmera: And for what it's worth, I can't agree more about that being a problem.
2015-01-24T11:25:19Z Shinmera: beach: Another idea just off the top of my head: Some form of metadata 'describe' function for applications that tells you what kind of things it requires, provides, uses, etc.
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2015-01-24T11:25:58Z beach: That's an interesting idea.
2015-01-24T11:27:25Z p_l: have you looked at android's 'intent' mechanism?
2015-01-24T11:27:43Z Shinmera: beach: Something like what I've done in Radiance: https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TWpZNQ==
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2015-01-24T11:28:21Z beach: Shinmera: I see, yes.
2015-01-24T11:28:29Z wasamasa: theos: the problem is not the language
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2015-01-24T11:28:56Z wasamasa: theos: someone has to actually understand the problem, then solve it properly
2015-01-24T11:29:02Z theos: wasamasa its marketing
2015-01-24T11:29:07Z wasamasa: theos: no?
2015-01-24T11:29:08Z Shinmera: p_l: In case that was directed at me: No, I have not.
2015-01-24T11:29:13Z eudoxia: beach, Shinmera: after thinking about it for a while and discussing it with eitaro fukamachi i decided you guys were right, and changed the class names on all my commondoc projects
2015-01-24T11:29:32Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Good to hear!
2015-01-24T11:29:56Z eudoxia: this isn't a "now use it!", more like "consider the argument won"
2015-01-24T11:30:13Z Shinmera: I don't think in terms of winning or losing arguments. That's kind of a toxic mindset.
2015-01-24T11:30:25Z oleo: jip
2015-01-24T11:30:28Z wasamasa: theos: the people making progress on AI at the moment just don't happen to use CL for it
2015-01-24T11:30:31Z beach: eudoxia: Wow!  Great!
2015-01-24T11:30:35Z wasamasa: theos: that's all there is to it
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2015-01-24T11:30:44Z theos: wasamasa the problem is we dont have enough people who actually use/know CL. thats because of marketing
2015-01-24T11:30:55Z wasamasa: lol
2015-01-24T11:31:01Z Shinmera: eudoxia: But I am glad to hear that you decided to agree with our arguments after all. That means I wasn't all that wrong!
2015-01-24T11:31:10Z wasamasa: well, at this point I just refer to that one great essay about wrong assumptions
2015-01-24T11:31:16Z beach: Shinmera: Don't rub it in.
2015-01-24T11:31:26Z wasamasa: theos: http://metamodular.com/Essays/wrong.html
2015-01-24T11:31:38Z Shinmera: beach: I'm not trying to do that at all, sorry
2015-01-24T11:31:43Z wasamasa: theos: "Why should all that counts in a programming language be popularity?"
2015-01-24T11:32:25Z theos: wasamasa if your assumption is "right" then what are the reasons for CL not being used by AI people?
2015-01-24T11:32:39Z wasamasa: theos: the reasons are manifold
2015-01-24T11:33:02Z wasamasa: theos: like the people sponsoring them wanting for it to be interoperable with C++
2015-01-24T11:33:16Z wasamasa: theos: or it working with their infrastructure
2015-01-24T11:33:21Z theos: wasamasa isnt that marketing?
2015-01-24T11:33:22Z wasamasa: theos: or mature libraries
2015-01-24T11:33:30Z wasamasa: theos: or proper docs
2015-01-24T11:33:43Z wasamasa: theos: or a friendly community
2015-01-24T11:33:47Z p_l: or simply not having CL programmers
2015-01-24T11:33:48Z wasamasa: theos: or momentum
2015-01-24T11:33:50Z Shinmera: beach: Going back to the 'describe' feature: What's good about it is that it requires no extra effort on part of the developer. The system scrapes the information together from calls that are made by the module already either way.
2015-01-24T11:34:06Z p_l: that said, CL library to run under Hadoop would be a big win there
2015-01-24T11:34:08Z beach: Shin
2015-01-24T11:34:14Z beach: Shinmera: Interesting.
2015-01-24T11:34:34Z theos: wasamasa i understand but those are all symptoms and not the disease
2015-01-24T11:34:43Z wasamasa: theos: nope
2015-01-24T11:34:50Z wasamasa: theos: these are all valid concerns for engineers
2015-01-24T11:35:08Z beach: theos: Most people who "do AI" are researchers.  Contrary to common belief, researchers don't try to "do the right thing".  They do "whatever gets funded".
2015-01-24T11:35:12Z wasamasa: ^
2015-01-24T11:35:14Z Shinmera: beach: I'm not entirely sure how this could be broadened to the general concept of an application, but f.e. the system could detect compile forms that open files or streams and thus give the user the information that it will try to access those resources.
2015-01-24T11:35:27Z theos: wasamasa with proper "motivation" everyone can be taught CL and AI, IMO
2015-01-24T11:35:57Z beach: Shinmera: I see.  It is hard for me to say.  But the idea seems like a good one.
2015-01-24T11:36:00Z theos: beach yes thats what i am trying to say. the funding comes under marketing
2015-01-24T11:36:06Z wasamasa: theos: all I need to convince someone otherwise is to point them to this channel
2015-01-24T11:37:07Z beach: Since we are talking about the number of programmers needed, I am reminded of this article: http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~apt/cs457_2005/hudak-jones.pdf
2015-01-24T11:37:42Z theos: wasamasa i am just trying to understand what really demotivates most of the population from using CL and motivates them to use python and C etc.
2015-01-24T11:38:01Z beach: Basically, it suggests that the productivity of programmers can vary by a factor as large as 50 depending on the language used and the people using it.
2015-01-24T11:38:02Z Shinmera: The same reasons why some cereal is more popular than others.
2015-01-24T11:38:21Z wasamasa: theos: lol, most of the population
2015-01-24T11:38:24Z theos: is it just the stupidity of the guy funding everything?
2015-01-24T11:38:43Z wasamasa: if you find it stupid to use something that works, sure
2015-01-24T11:38:52Z beach: theos: The answer is in this essay: http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html
2015-01-24T11:39:01Z theos: i see
2015-01-24T11:40:04Z beach: theos: Basically, the psychological investment in using a programming language or a text editor or something as complex is so great, the we (humans) can't cope with the idea that we have been doing something sub-optimal.
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2015-01-24T11:40:21Z wasamasa: buyer's remorse?
2015-01-24T11:40:42Z theos: Most of the population of coders i have seen is crazy about python or perl or java and i despise those.
2015-01-24T11:40:44Z beach: theos: So we (humans) "protect" ourselves by denying that there might be something better that we have ignored.
2015-01-24T11:41:02Z wasamasa: theos: they've found it, learned it, it's good enough for them
2015-01-24T11:41:09Z wasamasa: theos: the overall ecosystem rewards them for doing so
2015-01-24T11:41:11Z Shinmera: There's also just a lot of effort already invested in other areas and you can't just "port" it over to CL or abandon it altogether. The cost of fixing this is too great and outweighs the benefits of CL in the 'short term'.
2015-01-24T11:41:24Z theos: beach thats a rational explanation yes
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2015-01-24T11:41:56Z beach: theos: I have checked it with published professors of psychology.
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2015-01-24T11:43:03Z theos: beach i would like to do an experiment in which CL is the first language that is introduced to school kids instead of BASIC/python/C etc. we might learn a lot from there
2015-01-24T11:43:29Z wasamasa: theos: are you aware of MIT.006?
2015-01-24T11:43:44Z beach: Shinmera: I for one am convinced that, because of the difference in productivity, with a handful of people we could "port" most of what we need in a very short period of time.
2015-01-24T11:43:58Z theos: wasamasa i am guessing its a class in mit?
2015-01-24T11:44:05Z wasamasa: theos: ever heard of SICP?
2015-01-24T11:44:32Z wasamasa: theos: it's the course at MIT that made it popular
2015-01-24T11:44:32Z wasamasa: theos: reactions were pretty mixed
2015-01-24T11:44:56Z theos: wasamasa i will read about it. thanks
2015-01-24T11:45:03Z eudoxia: i agree with beach, there are a lot of libraries that could more or less easily be ported to CL
2015-01-24T11:45:07Z wasamasa: theos: I know about it since I happened to have a course using both it and HTDP
2015-01-24T11:45:17Z Shinmera: beach: Sadly "what we need" varies very much depending on whom you ask
2015-01-24T11:45:39Z beach: Shinmera: We can afford to try multiple simultaneous paths.
2015-01-24T11:46:09Z White_Flame: theos: What AI is there to "port" over to CL that would be of any benefit to having more advanced AI than already exists?
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2015-01-24T11:47:12Z Shinmera: beach: That would thin out the effort too much
2015-01-24T11:47:12Z beach: Shinmera: But we do need that handful of people who are willing to roll up their sleeves and run the show.
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2015-01-24T11:47:12Z beach: Shinmera: A bit, yes.
2015-01-24T11:48:31Z theos: White_Flame i am focusing more on the point that we are thinking about porting other software to CL. why didnt we write those software in CL to begin with?
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2015-01-24T11:48:52Z wasamasa: theos: hysterical raisins
2015-01-24T11:48:54Z White_Flame: theos: I'm just pointing out that that's a completely orthogonal problem to creating AI
2015-01-24T11:49:22Z White_Flame: the language benefits of CL do not offer any benefit to the conceptual discovery of what would lead to AI
2015-01-24T11:49:23Z wasamasa: theos: try actually understanding the psychology behind group thinking
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2015-01-24T11:49:28Z Quadrescence: behold the amazing gaming abilities afforded by lisp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gpm1K1jtwuA
2015-01-24T11:49:28Z beach: If I won the lottery, I would recruit such a group.  But that won't happen since I don't play the lottery.
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2015-01-24T11:49:28Z beach: Quadrescence: Are you turning into a complainer too?
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2015-01-24T11:49:28Z Quadrescence: Of course not!
2015-01-24T11:49:31Z beach: Whew!
2015-01-24T11:49:37Z wasamasa: theos: the benefits of programming languages apparently play a miniscule role there
2015-01-24T11:49:45Z Quadrescence: beach, I just wrote that! I wouldn't complain about my own precious creations.
2015-01-24T11:49:56Z beach: Ah, OK :)
2015-01-24T11:50:22Z Quadrescence: (Its real purpose is just another test case for cl-charms, an ncurses library.)
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2015-01-24T11:50:33Z theos: wasamasa i know enough about group thinking and herd mentality that i dont associate with any
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2015-01-24T11:50:54Z beach: Quadrescence: And who wrote cl-charms?
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2015-01-24T11:51:15Z wasamasa: theos: yet you're still hung up on the topic and don't seem to know about the actual engineering problems someone using CL to recreate "AI" would need to tackle
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2015-01-24T11:51:30Z Quadrescence: A progression of people. https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms#introduction
2015-01-24T11:52:13Z Quadrescence: There were some raw and sometimes buggy bindings to ncurses, so I fixed most of that up and wrote a high-level interface to those bindings, and a few examples.
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2015-01-24T11:52:20Z beach: Great!
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2015-01-24T11:52:59Z theos: wasamasa because i want to use group thinking to my advantage
2015-01-24T11:52:59Z wasamasa: theos: http://yyue.blogspot.de/2015/01/a-brief-overview-of-deep-learning.html
2015-01-24T11:53:10Z wasamasa: theos: good luck competing with > 50 years of that
2015-01-24T11:53:56Z Shinmera: beach: your remark about the lottery reminded me of this wonderful sketch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ss-59fi4nM
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2015-01-24T11:55:21Z daniel__2: hello mighty friends!
2015-01-24T11:55:28Z beach: Hello daniel__2.
2015-01-24T11:55:37Z beach: Shinmera: Nice! :)
2015-01-24T11:55:45Z daniel__2: am i here right, if I want to ask some question about programming in lisp, sbcl&slime?
2015-01-24T11:55:47Z hitecnologys: beach: so, here is a raw draft with some things I've pulled out of my head: https://hitecnologys.org/stuff-i-want-badly.html
2015-01-24T11:55:56Z Shinmera: daniel__2: you are
2015-01-24T11:56:06Z daniel__2: Shinmera: nice, thank you :)
2015-01-24T11:57:13Z wasamasa: theos: that as reminder what you'd need to deal with
2015-01-24T11:57:33Z beach: hitecnologys: Looks good to me.
2015-01-24T11:58:05Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: oh, looks nice.
2015-01-24T11:58:13Z wasamasa: hitecnologys: how would security work with that memory model?
2015-01-24T11:58:43Z wasamasa: hitecnologys: and for the last point, did you try out nixos?
2015-01-24T11:58:49Z hitecnologys: wasamasa: that't another qustion. Probably some ACL or similar.
2015-01-24T11:58:56Z hitecnologys: wasamasa: nixos?
2015-01-24T11:59:08Z Quadrescence: hitecnologys, the game is a giant hack. it was written in 45 minutes
2015-01-24T11:59:45Z wasamasa: hitecnologys: well, I'm rather thinking of existing solutions like all the menagerie of openbsd or just pax/grsec on linux
2015-01-24T11:59:51Z Shinmera: wasamasa: security would probably work by not giving raw memory access.
2015-01-24T11:59:58Z wasamasa: hitecnologys: yes, it's a linux distribution with a purely functional package manager
2015-01-24T11:59:58Z beach: Lunch.  I hope this interesting discussion will still be around when I come back.
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2015-01-24T12:00:09Z hitecnologys: wasamasa: looks good, I'll try it out, thanks.
2015-01-24T12:00:16Z wasamasa: hitecnologys: there has been an attempt to wrap it with guile scheme already
2015-01-24T12:00:29Z wasamasa: hitecnologys: perhaps the idea itself could be done in CL in a more powerful manner
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2015-01-24T12:00:49Z wasamasa: hitecnologys: it is very convenient for deployment of machines beyond what docker and containers do
2015-01-24T12:01:11Z hitecnologys: wasamasa: yes, that was one of the reasons for me wanting what I want.
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2015-01-24T12:01:32Z wasamasa: hitecnologys: here's an overview: http://gfxmonk.net/2015/01/03/nixos-and-stateless-deployment.html
2015-01-24T12:01:46Z theos: wasamasa we can sure try to change things even after 50 years
2015-01-24T12:04:42Z wasamasa: theos: would be good to do that in a more informed way, no?
2015-01-24T12:04:42Z wasamasa: theos: at least knowing the state of art, what has been done and what didn't work would help
2015-01-24T12:04:42Z theos: wasamasa indeed
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2015-01-24T12:26:51Z White_Flame: The Mill CPU has some really well-thought out concepts for security in a flat unified memory model
2015-01-24T12:28:19Z schjetne: wasamasa: have you looked at GNU's take on the NixOS concept, Guix?
2015-01-24T12:28:39Z schjetne: I thought I'd try to catch Ludovic's talk at FOSDEM next week
2015-01-24T12:29:10Z wasamasa: schjetne: that's what I mentioned
2015-01-24T12:29:19Z wasamasa: schjetne: a guile wrapper around nix
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2015-01-24T12:30:34Z schjetne: wasamasa: sorry, didn't read enough backlog
2015-01-24T12:30:53Z wasamasa: or rather, meant :P
2015-01-24T12:30:57Z schjetne: It would be nice to have the same capability in CL
2015-01-24T12:31:37Z schjetne: Maybe it could be useful as a part of the *nix compatibility layer for the Lisp OS effort
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2015-01-24T12:33:29Z schjetne: wasamasa: anyway, I'll read that link, since I have very much the same problem
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2015-01-24T12:36:37Z schjetne: it has led me to believe that it's not as much functional programming that matters as functional interaction of all the system components. A few setfs in my code isn't what's causing all the headaches.
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2015-01-24T12:37:56Z hitecnologys: Well, NixOS concept indeed does seem quite interesting.
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2015-01-24T12:38:41Z otwieracz: What is NixOS?
2015-01-24T12:38:53Z hitecnologys: otwieracz: http://nixos.org
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2015-01-24T12:45:30Z otwieracz: huh
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2015-01-24T12:50:14Z daniel__2: As a beginner of writing code in lisp (common-lisp/sbcl) I am trying to get my code clean from errors&warnings. Since DEFGENERIC and DEFCLASS are interconnected to  eachother, there is a warning in sbcl. How can I handle this events to get a better comilation log?
2015-01-24T12:50:46Z Shinmera: daniel__2: What do you mean by "interconnected"?
2015-01-24T12:51:09Z Shinmera: defgeneric is quite unconnected to classes.
2015-01-24T12:51:52Z Shinmera: Methods on the other hand do specialise on classes, so the classes must be defined before the methods that specialise on them.
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2015-01-24T12:53:05Z daniel__2: Shinmera: not really interconnected, i guess: the DEFMETHOD is using the slots from the classes, and the classes are using some functions later in the code
2015-01-24T12:53:16Z Shinmera: Classes do not use functions.
2015-01-24T12:53:42Z daniel__2: as init-form for example? https://github.com/gigamonkey/pcl-practicals/blob/master/Chapter27/database.lisp
2015-01-24T12:54:39Z daniel__2: when i am compile this code i get warnings in sbcl, no matter in which order i put the definitions... i dont get if there's something wrong or should just handle the warnings differently
2015-01-24T12:54:56Z Shinmera: How are you compiling them?
2015-01-24T12:55:22Z Shinmera: You should be able to reference functions that are defined later in the file by #' without any warnings.
2015-01-24T12:55:31Z daniel__2: opening the file in a buffer and pushinc C-c C-l
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2015-01-24T12:56:00Z Shinmera: That LOADs the file, which is different.
2015-01-24T12:56:25Z Grue`: C-c C-k for life!
2015-01-24T12:56:26Z ggole: Try C-c C-k (compile and load)
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2015-01-24T12:56:58Z daniel__2: aaaaaahh, no warnings :)
2015-01-24T12:57:02Z daniel__2: you make me happy!
2015-01-24T12:57:24Z Shinmera: LOADing will one form after another, so you'll get warnings. C-c C-k first COMPILE-FILEs the entire thing, which will resolve functions across the whole file.
2015-01-24T12:57:32Z Shinmera: *will execute one form
2015-01-24T12:57:45Z daniel__2: Ahh, i understand! thank you =)
2015-01-24T12:58:00Z daniel__2: i want to develop interactive in the repl, my files of the program are split up, and i load them with LOAD in my code. so i guess i should do this also differently xD
2015-01-24T12:58:12Z daniel__2: thats why the order is making me trouble, i guess
2015-01-24T12:58:16Z Shinmera: If you have multiple files you'll want to use ASDF, in most cases.
2015-01-24T12:58:38Z Shinmera: see https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/267 for a very brief introduction.
2015-01-24T12:59:02Z daniel__2: Shinmera: thank you very much, i will have a try now!
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2015-01-24T14:37:02Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2015-01-24T14:51:49Z beach: Hey nyef.
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2015-01-24T14:57:07Z beach: Yet another version of this optimization algorithm: http://metamodular.com/Rewrite/rewrite.html with an additional section at the end stating similarities between the two examples and a description under which circumstances the technique is applicable.
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2015-01-24T14:58:23Z beach: nyef: Any interesting thing you are working on?
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2015-01-24T14:58:47Z nyef: Still hacking at this PCI interface.
2015-01-24T14:58:58Z beach: In C?
2015-01-24T14:59:04Z nyef: Yeah.
2015-01-24T14:59:07Z nyef: Linux kernel stuff.
2015-01-24T14:59:11Z beach: Sure.
2015-01-24T14:59:21Z beach: Remind me why you are doing that?
2015-01-24T15:00:33Z nyef: 64-bit rackmount MIPS system.
2015-01-24T15:01:04Z beach: A commercial one?  And it lacks a PCI interface?
2015-01-24T15:01:35Z nyef: It's ten years old by now, and the Linux support just isn't there yet.
2015-01-24T15:01:37Z beach: Sorry I don't mean to pry.  I am just generally interested in what people do.
2015-01-24T15:03:03Z nyef: If I can get the PCI interface working then there's a good chance that the network card and disk controllers will work fairly easily, at which point I'll have a decent MIPS system to work with.
2015-01-24T15:03:45Z beach: You would be interested in having a discussion with my wife. :)  She is the great recycler of old computer systems.  Not to the point of writing code for them, but trying various installations.  Recently, she took an old laptop with a broken Ethernet card and managed to get Light-weight X or something like that working on it, using a WIFI dongle.
2015-01-24T15:04:11Z beach: Yeah, sure.
2015-01-24T15:04:30Z beach: I guess you don't trust emulators.
2015-01-24T15:04:46Z nyef: Having written a few, no, I don't trust emulators. (-:
2015-01-24T15:04:52Z beach: Heh!
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2015-01-24T15:07:35Z nyef: With hardware, if you run into something that doesn't behave right you know that it's an issue with the hardware and you have to work around it.
2015-01-24T15:08:00Z nyef: With an emulator, you don't know if it's a bug in the emulator that should be reported or if it's a bug in your code.
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2015-01-24T15:08:13Z beach: I see your point.
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2015-01-24T15:08:42Z nyef: It's even worse when the emulator author doesn't have hardware or complete hardware documentation (and hardware documentation is NEVER complete).
2015-01-24T15:10:08Z beach: Sure.
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2015-01-24T15:22:56Z nyef: beach: Your examples are correct as far as they go, but they presume either no side effects from the test being unswitched (such as exceptions, et cetera) or that the loop always executes at least once.
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2015-01-24T15:23:57Z nyef: beach: And if the loop sometimes doesn't execute and the test is somewhat expensive to execute then you're looking at a possible further optimization.
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2015-01-24T15:28:58Z ggole: "loop invariant" usually implies all of the conditions for hoistability are met
2015-01-24T15:29:01Z ggole: At least, I would think so
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2015-01-24T15:31:52Z ggole: There's also a trick for hoisting (some) exception-raising constructs, which is that you catch and test whether the exception would have been excluded by the loop condition logic, jumping after the loop if so
2015-01-24T15:32:17Z ggole: (Doesn't work for arbitrary code, just for things like division.)
2015-01-24T15:32:27Z beach: nyef: Yes, I assume that global value numbering has been applied so that I am sure that the tests test the same thing.
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2015-01-24T15:35:10Z beach: nyef: Right.  Whether or not the transformation is desirable is a different story.  And the test must not signal a condition of course.
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2015-01-24T15:38:01Z beach: I am thinking it can come in handy in (say) the sequence functions.
2015-01-24T15:39:10Z beach: Then I can write for example POSITION using tests for :START :END :KEY :TEST inside the loop.
2015-01-24T15:39:25Z beach: It means the algorithm will be easy to test.
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2015-01-24T15:39:51Z beach: Furthermore, I can write AREF in the inner loop, and the implementation might specialize it to different kinds of vectors.
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2015-01-24T15:40:14Z beach: Then, when I apply this transformation, I automatically get special versions of the loops.
2015-01-24T15:41:49Z Shinmera 's slime impl setup is looking good. https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TWpjeA==
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2015-01-24T15:44:49Z beach: As I may already have said, my first SICL module was the sequence functions, and it was a disaster because I created the special versions manually.  It meant there were way to many cases to test.  So I abandoned it, hoping that a better solution would pop up.  Now I am hoping I have such a solution.
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2015-01-24T15:52:38Z beach: nyef: Thanks for checking those for me.
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2015-01-24T15:53:03Z beach: ggole: Are you also convinced that the algorithm works?
2015-01-24T15:53:45Z ggole: It looked OK: I didn't go over it with a fine toothed comb.
2015-01-24T15:53:57Z beach: Sure, no need to do that.
2015-01-24T15:54:08Z beach: Thanks.
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2015-01-24T15:57:48Z ggole: The movement stuff is interesting. It seems to correspond fairly closely to availability in a numbering pass.
2015-01-24T15:58:11Z beach: Value numbering?
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2015-01-24T15:58:44Z ggole: Yeah
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2015-01-24T15:59:08Z beach: Global value numbering in the case of SSA?
2015-01-24T15:59:25Z beach: I can't remember the details that algorithm.
2015-01-24T15:59:27Z beach: of
2015-01-24T16:00:58Z beach: I like the algorithm because each rewrite step is obviously semantics-preserving.
2015-01-24T16:01:38Z beach: Wait, I remember.
2015-01-24T16:02:05Z beach: They assume all values are equal.  Then they split the graph when they discover evidence of a difference.
2015-01-24T16:02:06Z ggole: Simplifying a fair amount, you keep a table mapping operations to instructions
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2015-01-24T16:02:28Z ggole: That's one of the GVN algorithms, yes
2015-01-24T16:03:54Z beach: Yes I see what you mean about the availability.
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2015-01-24T16:05:08Z beach: Anyway, I think my colleague (in her inimitable way) hinted that she might work on it starting April or so.
2015-01-24T16:05:29Z beach: She would probably help me prove termination and such.
2015-01-24T16:06:13Z beach: Nothing prevents anyone (including me) from working on it before that of course.
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2015-01-24T16:42:17Z Ralt: hi
2015-01-24T16:42:28Z Ralt: I have an issue... I know how to do something, but it feels unelegant.
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2015-01-24T16:42:35Z Ralt: I'd like to strip off the leading whitespaces in a line
2015-01-24T16:43:27Z Ralt: so I thought about doing (cl-ppcre:split "\\s+" foo), then strip off the first element, then join the rest... but it's ugly. And will lose spaces... although that doesn't matter in my case
2015-01-24T16:43:45Z Shinmera: clhs string-trim
2015-01-24T16:43:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stg_tr.htm
2015-01-24T16:43:56Z Ralt: thanks!
2015-01-24T16:45:43Z Ralt: I forgot about the trim functions...
2015-01-24T16:46:14Z pjb: beach: IIUC, the choice of guile as an implementation language for GNU emacs comes mainly from the fact that guile is a GNU project, and the designated scripting language for GNU applications (cf. eg. Gimp and more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Guile#Programs_using_Guile).  Unfortunately, the GNU CL implementations are 1- the "official" gcl (which is not even yet fully compliant), 2- GNU clisp (which wasn't originally a GNU project,
2015-01-24T16:46:14Z pjb: but a CL implementation that had to be put under GPL for its use of readline).
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2015-01-24T16:47:05Z beach: pjb: Yeah, that seems right.
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2015-01-24T16:48:36Z pjb: beach: In any case, switching to guile might provoque the defection of Common Lispers to another (or multiple other) emacs(en).  We would only need to port slime to Hemlock or climacs to make us switch. :-)
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2015-01-24T16:50:47Z beach: Maybe so.  It will be interesting to see what happens in any case.
2015-01-24T16:51:36Z beach: You missed a talk in Montreal by Stefan Monnier.  He seems to be leaning more toward Common Lisp.
2015-01-24T16:52:33Z Ralt: is there anything that prevents us to write emacs in CL, embedding an elisp interpreter? (except time)
2015-01-24T16:52:47Z beach: Ralt: No.
2015-01-24T16:52:53Z beach: Ralt: It has been done.
2015-01-24T16:53:31Z pjb: Ralt: hemlock contains some elisp.
2015-01-24T16:53:50Z Ralt: ok
2015-01-24T16:53:56Z beach: Ralt: Might as well take advantage of the situation and get rid of Elisp though.
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2015-01-24T16:54:17Z ggole: There's a lot of stuff people want to use written in elisp.
2015-01-24T16:54:21Z wasamasa: beach: stefan won't do such a thing
2015-01-24T16:54:25Z pjb: Ralt: the elisp part is rather easy.  It's the emacs library that takes more time to implement completely enough to have elisp application run seemlessly.
2015-01-24T16:54:34Z wasamasa: beach: if anything, the comment was hinting at extending elisp to become sufficiently CL-like
2015-01-24T16:55:18Z pjb: Now  of course, as beach suggests, it might not be a bad idea to rewrite applications, because there's some wild code in the emacs lisp ecosystem…
2015-01-24T16:55:18Z beach: wasamasa: I didn't mean to say that Stefan would write a new Emacs in Common Lisp.  I meant what you said, move Elisp toward Common Lisp.
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2015-01-24T16:56:11Z pjb: For one thing, if you integrate threads from the beginning, you might want quite a different structure for apps, modes, etc.
2015-01-24T16:56:35Z beach: If anyone really wants their preferred Emacs application, I can see providing an Elisp -> Common Lisp translator as a temporary solution.
2015-01-24T16:57:02Z nyef: ... org-mode?
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2015-01-24T16:57:27Z beach: Also Emacs is *very slow* in general.  I think we could do much better with a Common Lisp implementation that generates native code.
2015-01-24T16:58:21Z wasamasa: good luck making these as portable as emacs itself
2015-01-24T16:58:22Z beach: pjb: I fully agree with your analysis.
2015-01-24T16:58:37Z beach: wasamasa: There is that, yes.
2015-01-24T16:58:52Z wasamasa: ECL is what was considered for embedding an implementation into emacs
2015-01-24T16:59:04Z wasamasa: but it has less support by libraries compared to, say, SBCL
2015-01-24T16:59:06Z beach: Though, providing a Common Lisp interpreter in C for those other platforms wouldn't necessarily be slower than Elisp is now.
2015-01-24T17:00:26Z nyef: What platforms are there that are powerful enough to run emacs, that people would WANT to run emacs on, aren't supported by either CCL or SBCL?
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2015-01-24T17:00:53Z nyef: (Yes, this is a legitimate question.)
2015-01-24T17:00:53Z ggole: DOS
2015-01-24T17:01:02Z ggole: (Emacs still supports it.)
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2015-01-24T17:01:16Z nyef: Hrm. Could be done, in a pinch.
2015-01-24T17:01:38Z wasamasa: how good is BSD support?
2015-01-24T17:02:04Z Shinmera: breddy good according to sbcl's platform table
2015-01-24T17:02:18Z beach: I recall an email exchange that I had with RMS a few days after his announcing GNU Emacs.  I wrote to him and said it would be better to write a general Lisp system (Common Lisp didn't exist at the time) and then write Emacs in it.  He answered almost immediately saying "Sounds good.  Let me know when you have implemented it!".
2015-01-24T17:02:24Z Ralt: ggole: "... that people would WANT to run emacs on"
2015-01-24T17:02:25Z Ralt: :P
2015-01-24T17:02:42Z ggole: I'm fairly sure that the DOS support lives on because of one person
2015-01-24T17:02:48Z nyef: Don't know what the coverage on BSDs is like, particularly with respect to threads and less-common CPU types.
2015-01-24T17:02:57Z ggole: Who happens to be a fairly prolific contributor to emacs.
2015-01-24T17:03:15Z beach: ggole: And who is that?
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2015-01-24T17:03:51Z wasamasa: eli zaretskii
2015-01-24T17:04:01Z ggole: Yeah, eli
2015-01-24T17:04:01Z wasamasa: the probably only developer left who knows how the display engine works
2015-01-24T17:04:11Z beach: Hmm.
2015-01-24T17:04:20Z wasamasa: who was crazy enough to implement bidi rendering on his own for it
2015-01-24T17:04:44Z wasamasa: I don't want to know what makes him use emacs on dos, I assume it's his job
2015-01-24T17:05:37Z beach: Even if we (or someone else) were to propose an Emacs in Common Lisp, nobody would be forcing Eli to give up the current version.
2015-01-24T17:06:04Z pjb: wasamasa: some people like DOS "simplicity" and keep using it!
2015-01-24T17:06:35Z pjb: beach: of course. There'd be a war on killing applications.  We'd have to have a better org-mode :-)
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2015-01-24T17:07:42Z pjb: Which means that either we have something radical, such as an AI implemented in CL to integrate into it, or we more programmers than elisp. but the later is not the case.
2015-01-24T17:08:26Z Shinmera: a full browser in emacs would be what I'd consider 'radical'
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2015-01-24T17:09:35Z wasamasa: pjb: lol, good luck recreating the 100k lines of code org-mode is made of
2015-01-24T17:09:45Z wasamasa: pjb: especially with the manpower of the CL community
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2015-01-24T17:10:02Z pjb: wasamasa: well, I'd bet just rewriting it in CL would reduce it to 80% or 70%.
2015-01-24T17:10:54Z wasamasa: pjb: that doesn't save you from solving the problems org-mode solves
2015-01-24T17:11:02Z wasamasa: (then, org-mode reinvents a lot)
2015-01-24T17:12:08Z pjb: bbl
2015-01-24T17:12:16Z dim: well what about providing the same API as Emacs (buffers/windows/etc) and an elisp "reader"?
2015-01-24T17:12:40Z Ralt: Shinmera: well, there are already browsers based in webkit bindings...
2015-01-24T17:13:01Z Ralt: s/in/on/
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2015-01-24T17:13:58Z wasamasa: Ralt: yes and they suck
2015-01-24T17:14:10Z wasamasa: Ralt: even more so now that chrome has forked it and went blink
2015-01-24T17:14:33Z wasamasa: Ralt: the last thing I need is a browser in emacs leaking memory like crazy
2015-01-24T17:16:18Z Ralt: webkit leaks like crazy?
2015-01-24T17:16:32Z Ralt: it's still maintained by apple afaik
2015-01-24T17:17:51Z wasamasa: apple maintains cups, too
2015-01-24T17:18:10Z xyh: if I have a array of which the index-list is '(100 2)
2015-01-24T17:18:10Z xyh: an element of index (n 0) must be of type string
2015-01-24T17:18:10Z xyh: and an element of index (n 1) must be a nature-number and less-then 1000
2015-01-24T17:18:10Z xyh: how should I declare the :element-type of this array ?
2015-01-24T17:18:11Z minion: xyh, memo from pjb: This is not a fatal error.
2015-01-24T17:19:00Z ggole: xyh: t
2015-01-24T17:19:44Z xyh: ggole: for real ? can not be more special ?
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2015-01-24T17:20:04Z ggole: The element type applies to every element, not to particular rows/columns
2015-01-24T17:20:12Z ggole: You could use two arrays though
2015-01-24T17:21:13Z xyh: ggole: I see. when using two arrays, how to declare "a nature-number and less-then 1000" ?
2015-01-24T17:22:12Z ggole: (integer 0 999)
2015-01-24T17:23:02Z xyh: ggole: thx
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2015-01-24T17:23:29Z ggole: Be aware of the array type limitations though
2015-01-24T17:24:51Z ggole: Hmm, what's the name of the page
2015-01-24T17:24:54Z ggole: clhs make-array
2015-01-24T17:24:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
2015-01-24T17:25:15Z ggole: clhs array upgrading
2015-01-24T17:25:34Z ggole: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/15_aba.htm
2015-01-24T17:25:45Z nyef: clhs upgraded-array-element-type
2015-01-24T17:25:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm
2015-01-24T17:26:25Z ggole: Essentially, the implementation might generalize the type that you specify a bit
2015-01-24T17:26:34Z nyef: And we really mustn't let a discussion of array upgrading go by without mentioning (ARRAY NIL).
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2015-01-24T17:29:16Z ggole: Is that any more than an amusing special case?
2015-01-24T17:29:33Z nyef: Well, (vector nil) is a subtype of string.
2015-01-24T17:30:08Z ggole: Er, really?
2015-01-24T17:30:28Z nyef: NIL is a subtype of character, so yes.
2015-01-24T17:30:37Z nyef: Err... subtype of CHARACTER.
2015-01-24T17:30:44Z ggole: I did not know that.
2015-01-24T17:31:11Z nyef: It's also a subtype of BIT, which is a required specialized array type, and upgrading can only move upwards in the lattice, so there must be an array type specialized to NIL.
2015-01-24T17:31:21Z nyef: Thus, subtype of string.
2015-01-24T17:31:44Z nyef: I somehow doubt there are three implementations that actually follow this interpretation, though. Even two is unlikely.
2015-01-24T17:31:48Z ggole: Ah, that's why its there
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2015-01-24T17:40:20Z pjb: xyh: (or (integer 0 999) string)
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2015-01-24T17:41:37Z pjb: xyh: but you might want to consider instead: (defstruct named-length (name (error ":name must be given") :type string) (length (error ":length must be given") :type (integer 0 999))) (make-array 100 :element-type 'pair)
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2015-01-24T17:42:08Z pjb: s/pair/named-length/
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2015-01-24T17:42:49Z pjb: So for example, if we could provide an emacs written in CL that would be able to read your mind about simple refactoring such as renaming a defstruct, that'd be a killer app I'd say.
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2015-01-24T17:45:03Z pjb: xyh: or perhaps in your case, you could rather use: (vector (make-array 100 :element-type '(integer 0 999)) (make-array 100 :element-type string))  and (defun ref (a n sel) (aref a (ecase sel (:length 0) (:name 1)) n))
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2015-01-24T17:59:35Z xyh: pjb: I am using two vector, thx.
2015-01-24T17:59:42Z xyh: pjb: IMO, an editor should be designed in a way that
2015-01-24T17:59:42Z xyh: it provides a lib of low level functions about editing,
2015-01-24T17:59:42Z xyh: every language wishs to use that editor,
2015-01-24T17:59:50Z xyh: should creats an interface-binding to these low level functions,
2015-01-24T17:59:54Z xyh: then the language's editing-mode can be hacked in its onw language,
2015-01-24T17:59:55Z xyh: and the language gains a editing-lib by port to that editor.
2015-01-24T18:00:16Z xyh: * porting
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2015-01-24T18:09:30Z copec: Programming in CL as a noob sometimes feels like I'm setting up a Rube-Goldberg device starting with the last step and not know what prior steps need to take place.
2015-01-24T18:10:04Z pjb: copec: that's strange. Programming in all programming languages should be done in the same systematic way.
2015-01-24T18:10:24Z pjb: There's no reason to implement more kludges in CL than in other languages.
2015-01-24T18:10:44Z copec: I was never a very good programmer :-p
2015-01-24T18:11:02Z pjb: Programming is done with concepts, not with characters :-)
2015-01-24T18:11:15Z pjb: copec: perhaps you'd want to read Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs  http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html  http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
2015-01-24T18:11:16Z Petit_Dejeuner_: s/characters/parens
2015-01-24T18:11:25Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner_: Right :-)
2015-01-24T18:12:17Z nyef feels like he's setting up a Rube-Goldberg device starting with a bag of undocumented, badly-documented, and just plain weird parts, and trying to figure out which way around they go in order to make something happen. Like playing The Incredible Machine, but with computer hardware.
2015-01-24T18:12:59Z pjb: Perhaps this would be a good time for everybody to watch: Alan Kay "Programming and Scaling" 2011 http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/
2015-01-24T18:12:59Z pjb:  
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2015-01-24T18:14:01Z copec: I have actually read that before, I just haven't actively programmed as much as I probably should have
2015-01-24T18:14:13Z nyef: pjb: "A plugin is needed to display this content." That was a quick watch.
2015-01-24T18:15:24Z pjb: It's also visible on youtube, split in four parts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZmcmdsoAXU
2015-01-24T18:18:51Z xyh: even when useing  :element-type 'string
2015-01-24T18:18:52Z xyh: I can do  :initial-element 0  ???
2015-01-24T18:19:06Z nyef: xyh: It's somewhat under-defined, IIRC.
2015-01-24T18:19:17Z pjb: Yes, it's not conforming. Anything can happen.
2015-01-24T18:19:40Z pjb: Notice that you are allowed not to use :initial-element, if you don't read a slot before setting it.
2015-01-24T18:20:12Z pjb: xyh: you can use :element-type (or null string (integer 0 999)) :initial-element nil
2015-01-24T18:20:17Z pjb: +'
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2015-01-24T18:25:21Z xyh: I am writing a hash-table of string, I will not declare the type to be 'string any more, and use 0 to test if an entry is used before.
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2015-01-24T18:27:09Z pjb: why 0?  It's customary to use nil.
2015-01-24T18:28:06Z pjb: and hash values are not between fixed bounds in general, but the upper bound may change depending on the size of the hash-table. Also, it's preferable to use prime sizes for hash-tables.
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2015-01-24T18:34:57Z xyh: (defparameter *size#name-hash-table* 100333) [1000003 1000033 1000333 are all prime numbers]
2015-01-24T18:35:01Z xyh: the hash-table is for the symbol datatype (i.e. name) in my VM, I have my own hash-function.
2015-01-24T18:35:06Z xyh: the VM must be ported to assembly language too, so I use 0 but not nil.
2015-01-24T18:35:39Z pjb: Even in assembly language it is preferable to use NIL rather than 0.
2015-01-24T18:36:17Z xyh: nil in assembly ?
2015-01-24T18:36:23Z pjb: Of course.
2015-01-24T18:36:41Z xyh: what it looks like ?
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2015-01-24T18:36:49Z pjb: like a pointer to a symbol.
2015-01-24T18:37:01Z pjb: a symbol named "NIL", CL:NIL
2015-01-24T18:37:14Z White_Flame: especially if you can keep the NIL value in a constant register
2015-01-24T18:39:43Z xyh: oh I see. my language will not have a common-lisp-like general NIL. false and empty-list will be of two different types.
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2015-01-24T18:40:39Z nyef: xyh: Will you also have a privileged "uninitialized" value?
2015-01-24T18:43:06Z xyh: nyef: what is an uninitialized value? a value have not value?
2015-01-24T18:43:50Z White_Flame: (defvar *foo*)
2015-01-24T18:43:52Z nyef: Approximately, yes.
2015-01-24T18:44:03Z ggole wonders in which ASM symbols are "preferable" to zeros
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2015-01-24T18:44:27Z White_Flame: ggole: you don't want fixnum zero and nil to be ambiguous
2015-01-24T18:45:35Z ggole: Hmm, I guess pjb meant that NIL was the right thing and it doesn't stop being the right thing in assembly.
2015-01-24T18:46:15Z ggole: While I was thinking about instruction costs...
2015-01-24T18:47:42Z White_Flame: in x86 & 64, it can do an immediate compare of the fixed NIL value
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2015-01-24T18:47:58Z White_Flame: the instruction is a lot bigger than keeping a constant register, but it's not a multi-step process
2015-01-24T18:48:41Z White_Flame: (disassemble #'null) for instance, and you'll see NIL and T in their literal form (in my SBCL at least)
2015-01-24T18:48:58Z xyh: nyef: I my lang, a global variable must have an initial-value.
2015-01-24T18:49:15Z xyh: White_Flame: cool! I see it in CCl too :)
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2015-01-24T18:51:29Z xyh: the AT&T-like syntax looks ugly ...
2015-01-24T18:52:19Z Bike: having only one symbol be an immediate sounds about as weird as sbcl's fixed address crap, really
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2015-01-24T18:55:30Z White_Flame: at least 2 symbols are, NIL and T :)
2015-01-24T18:56:07Z ggole: What does "fixed address crap" mean? It doesn't put placeholder values and link them into place?
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2015-01-24T18:56:55Z Bike: well, i don't understand it very well honestly, but i think sbcl has to have nil at a particular location in memory, like compile-time specified or something
2015-01-24T18:57:43Z ggole: I remember asking about something like that, but it was particular to NIL if memory serves.
2015-01-24T18:57:59Z Bike: that's what i meant.
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2015-01-24T18:59:53Z White_Flame: Right, the GC can't modify the code in functions to use different immediate addresses in its instructions, so it has to lock it into place
2015-01-24T19:00:28Z White_Flame: whereas most other variable references keep a table of symbol references before the function, which the GC is aware of and can patch up
2015-01-24T19:00:39Z White_Flame: (to my understanding)
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2015-01-24T19:04:50Z nyef: White_Flame: In SBCL, have a look at the so-called "fixup vector" on x86.
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2015-01-24T19:07:20Z nyef: Part of the problem is that there are a number of references to read-only and static space that simply aren't kept track of.
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2015-01-24T19:32:59Z drmeister: Xach: I just sent you an email with the changes to quicklisp for clasp.
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2015-01-24T19:51:12Z White_Flame: Is there any interactive way in SLIME + SBCL to macroexpand macrolet bodies, like C-c Ret does?
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2015-01-24T20:17:14Z Xach: drmeister: thanks
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2015-01-24T20:20:18Z drmeister: Xach: Thank-you.
2015-01-24T20:20:39Z Xach: no diff for quicklisp.lisp?
2015-01-24T20:20:42Z Xach can generate one
2015-01-24T20:21:06Z drmeister: I sent you the entire modified quicklisp.lisp that I edited.
2015-01-24T20:21:29Z Quadrescence: xach has a responsibility to look at the diff for backdoors!
2015-01-24T20:21:54Z Xach: drmeister: i saw that, yes.
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2015-01-24T20:22:09Z Xach: i like a diff more than a whole file in that case
2015-01-24T20:24:48Z drmeister: Noted - I thought you would just apply the patch to your version of quicklisp.lisp and if you hadn't made a change to quicklisp.lisp in the past couple of weeks then you would end up with exactly the file that I just sent you.
2015-01-24T20:25:50Z drmeister: Quadrescence: Good point - I didn't think about that.
2015-01-24T20:27:30Z Xach: drmeister: apply the patch you sent to me? that wouldn't affect quicklisp.lisp
2015-01-24T20:30:15Z drmeister: I misunderstand something then.   I had to make a three sets of changes to quicklisp.lisp to add support for clasp.  Had I created a patch file, you would have applied the patch to your quicklisp.lisp to add support for clasp.
2015-01-24T20:30:30Z drmeister: "I had to make three sets of changes ..."
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2015-01-24T20:52:17Z Xach: drmeister: yes
2015-01-24T20:52:26Z Xach: quicklisp.lisp is in the quicklisp-bootstrap project on github
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2015-01-24T20:56:07Z drmeister: Oh - I didn't realize that
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2015-01-24T20:58:05Z drmeister: Ok,  FYI - I made changes to the quicklisp.lisp file that I downloaded from here:  http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2015-01-24T20:58:27Z drmeister: I didn't realize the quicklisp-bootstrap project was that.
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2015-01-24T21:18:01Z yenda: how is clim developpement going ? it looks like nothing happened since 2008. Are all lispers using bindings to foreign interface libraries or web interfaces nowadays ?
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2015-01-24T21:21:32Z White_Flame: web interfaces here :-P
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2015-01-24T21:22:44Z puchacz: hi, guys, do you run "production" hunchentoot image with --disable-debugger?
2015-01-24T21:22:58Z puchacz: I do, and I set up hunchentoot to catch errors
2015-01-24T21:23:19Z puchacz: however when I do something occasionally in REPL and I make a mistake, the image dies - as expected
2015-01-24T21:23:25Z puchacz: not super convenient
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2015-01-24T21:28:25Z puchacz: on one hand I want almost all errors to be caught and neutralised by hunchentoot so no thread is blocked by error and consumes resources, but on the other hand I want safety net when I play with it interactively
2015-01-24T21:28:33Z Xach: puchacz: i run it within a loop that restarts it after a few seconds.
2015-01-24T21:28:49Z Xach: oh, hmm. i don't think it's the same situation.
2015-01-24T21:29:08Z puchacz: Xach: so you have hunchentoot in a loop?
2015-01-24T21:29:30Z dim: interactively playing doesn't sound to me like something you would do in production...
2015-01-24T21:29:54Z puchacz: why not? it is lisp :-)
2015-01-24T21:30:17Z dim: you already said why not, didn't you?
2015-01-24T21:30:38Z puchacz: it wouldn't be an issue if my simple typos were caught into debugger
2015-01-24T21:31:05Z puchacz: if I write (run-my-functin) instead of (run-my-function)
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2015-01-24T21:31:44Z puchacz: it is like having SQL access to production database, it does not sound too scary
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2015-01-24T21:32:11Z puchacz: Xach: can you elaborate pls how you run it exactly...?
2015-01-24T21:32:29Z Xach: puchacz: it's something like: while true;do start-my-website; sleep 15;done
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2015-01-24T21:32:44Z Xach: puchacz: if the website crashes hard, it restart
2015-01-24T21:32:47Z Xach: (s)
2015-01-24T21:32:57Z puchacz: Xach: do you run with --disable-debugger?
2015-01-24T21:33:31Z Xach: puchacz: no. tbnl caught and logged them. sometimes it would crash hard (what would put sbcl in ldb)
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2015-01-24T21:34:18Z puchacz: ah, ok, got you. so while true start my website; sleep is in bash or similar, isn't it?
2015-01-24T21:34:36Z puchacz: and actual sbcl has debugger enabled AND tbnl configured to catch errors?
2015-01-24T21:34:45Z puchacz: so it does not tend to enter debugger?
2015-01-24T21:35:37Z Xach: puchacz: i can't really remember, sorry
2015-01-24T21:35:44Z puchacz: no worries
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2015-01-24T22:23:05Z drmeister: Where does slime put trace messages?
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2015-01-24T22:25:49Z drmeister: I'm turning on trace and then switching through all the *xxx* buffers/frames - I don't see any trace messages.
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2015-01-24T22:30:25Z nyef: Not even *inferior-lisp* ?
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2015-01-24T22:30:40Z Xach: drmeister: normally to *trace-output*
2015-01-24T22:30:40Z nyef: And what's the value of *trace-output*?
2015-01-24T22:30:44Z drmeister: Nope.    It may be an error in my implementation.
2015-01-24T22:31:09Z drmeister: How do you check the value of a variable with slime?  Do you use inspect?
2015-01-24T22:31:23Z Xach: drmeister: just type it into the repl
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2015-01-24T22:33:59Z drmeister: Ah, I was expecting some key combination.
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2015-01-24T22:34:35Z drmeister: *trace-output* is a synonym stream for #<core:iostream-stream '*STDERR*'>
2015-01-24T22:34:50Z drmeister: Let's see where that goes.
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2015-01-24T22:35:56Z drmeister: Hmmm, (print "foo" *trace-output*) goes to *inferior-lisp*
2015-01-24T22:37:08Z drmeister: Well, when I defun a function and trace it and call it - I see the trace in *inferior-lisp*
2015-01-24T22:37:15Z drmeister: Maybe the function isn't being called
2015-01-24T22:37:37Z nyef: Is it getting inlined?
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2015-01-24T22:41:56Z pjb: You can always redirect streams: (setf *trace-output* *standard-output*) ; but the problem is when you have threads; you need to do that in the threads you're interested in.
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2015-01-24T22:42:56Z drmeister: nyef: I don't do inlining at this point.
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2015-01-24T22:46:30Z Xach: outlined?
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2015-01-24T23:18:43Z burtons: Xach: have you found sb-directory useful?
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2015-01-24T23:22:48Z Xach: burtons: i have not tried it yet, sorry
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