2015-01-19T00:00:04Z JokesOnYou77: nyef, READ wont do it? Any thoughts?
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2015-01-19T00:00:31Z nyef: Give it a try anyway?
2015-01-19T00:00:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: JokesOnYou77, I'd expect read to work, but you'd get symbols for every word.
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2015-01-19T00:02:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: A symbol for 'NP' might be fine, but a symbol for 'the' and 'raining' probably isn't what you want.
2015-01-19T00:05:43Z pillton: Define "won't do it".
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2015-01-19T00:07:53Z JokesOnYou77: Petit_Dejeuner, actually im going to define the various part of speech tags and phrase tags as functions that will perform data munging operations
2015-01-19T00:09:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: If you want to do that, you should be able to read in the data and eval it, but the actual text will be evaled too since they're not strings.
2015-01-19T00:10:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: <something-about-eval-being-evil-goes-here>
2015-01-19T00:12:01Z JokesOnYou77: I thought i could use Read?
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2015-01-19T00:13:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: read won't evaluate anything, https://www.refheap.com/d4deb98afe06e106461c47a11
2015-01-19T00:14:36Z Petit_Dejeuner: You can pass the result of read to eval.
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2015-01-19T00:19:40Z Quadrescence: READ may EVAL sometimes!
2015-01-19T00:21:32Z JokesOnYou77: So if i have a bunch of these s-expressions in a file hiw do i get them one at a time?
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2015-01-19T00:24:02Z pillton: READ only returns one s-expression.
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2015-01-19T00:25:36Z pillton: Perhaps, the next s-expression in the stream, is a better way of saying it.
2015-01-19T00:25:57Z zRecursive: CCL seems cannot run on OpenBSD ?  And SBCL is just 1.4.4 on OpenBSD.
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2015-01-19T00:27:51Z nyef: zRecursive: You could try building a newer SBCL yourself.
2015-01-19T00:28:13Z JokesOnYou77: So once the file is a stream i can just READ until theres nothing left?
2015-01-19T00:28:45Z pillton: Yes.
2015-01-19T00:29:00Z pillton: clhs read
2015-01-19T00:29:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm
2015-01-19T00:30:33Z zRecursive: nyef: i think so
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2015-01-19T00:31:20Z zRecursive: hope sbcl-1.4.4 can compile sbcl-1.2.7 on openbsd
2015-01-19T00:32:48Z pillton: 1.1.14?
2015-01-19T00:33:31Z nyef: My current build host on Linux is still 1.0.23, so you should be okay.
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2015-01-19T01:55:34Z ruste: Say I wanted to install common lisp libraries for clisp by hand.
2015-01-19T01:55:40Z ruste: How would I go about doing that?
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2015-01-19T02:01:51Z Bike: ruste: "by hand" meaning without quicklisp? you'd download the sources to a folder asdf will check, then load the systems.
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2015-01-19T02:03:48Z ruste: Without asdf?
2015-01-19T02:04:02Z ruste: I don't think clisp has asdf by default.
2015-01-19T02:05:00Z ruste: gnu clisp that is.
2015-01-19T02:05:32Z ruste: I'm trying to install the ABLE editor.
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2015-01-19T02:15:40Z White_Flame: asdf is just a single file to load as well.  Shouldn't be any barrier to get that going
2015-01-19T02:15:46Z White_Flame: did you try (require 'asdf)?
2015-01-19T02:16:24Z White_Flame: (tried it, it fails on my clisp, so probably no go there)
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2015-01-19T02:20:00Z ruste: Yeah, no go.
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2015-01-19T02:20:37Z ruste: I can probably get it I'd just prefer to learn about where all of my libraries are included from. Is there some sort of path variable?
2015-01-19T02:20:42Z Bike: Does (asdf:asdf-version) work?
2015-01-19T02:21:00Z Bike: ruste: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems.html it's complicated
2015-01-19T02:21:06Z ruste: Nope.
2015-01-19T02:21:22Z Bike: that's weird. i would think clisp has asdf bundled with it like most impls.
2015-01-19T02:22:07Z ruste: Is there a path variable for clisp? Where does it look when I use (require)?
2015-01-19T02:22:42Z Bike: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes.html#require
2015-01-19T02:24:43Z Bike: checked sources, clisp does have asdf as a module. this thing has generic instructions: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/modules.html#mod-dynload
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2015-01-19T02:30:34Z ruste: Alright, thanks. I'll check it out. I'm trying to get (require) to load something from /usr/lib64/clisp-2.64/ right now.
2015-01-19T02:32:32Z Bike: you can always just use the second argument to require
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2015-01-19T02:34:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-01-19T02:35:47Z brucem: hey beach.
2015-01-19T02:36:09Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-01-19T02:41:11Z yenda: when I call flexi-streams:octets-to-string in the REPL it works but if I call it through a test function that contains exactly the same call I get "The value #\V is not of type INTEGER." in sbcl. How do I find what's going on ?
2015-01-19T02:41:11Z yenda:  
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2015-01-19T02:42:13Z Zhivago: Perhaps it wants octets?
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2015-01-19T02:43:02Z Zhivago: Also your diagnosis is probably wrong.
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2015-01-19T02:46:01Z beach: yenda: You need to paste your code.  It is impossible to tell what is wrong from your description.
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2015-01-19T02:49:29Z yenda: beach: http://codepaste.net/hgiw5t
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2015-01-19T02:51:57Z beach: yenda: So you are saying if you call TEST it doesn't work, but if you issue the same call as is in the body of TEST, it works?
2015-01-19T02:54:25Z yenda: beach: yes exactly
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2015-01-19T02:54:54Z beach: I suggest you do (TRACE MAKE-REQUEST) and check it again.
2015-01-19T02:55:19Z beach: [since you asked how to find out what is going on]
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2015-01-19T03:00:16Z yenda: nice I found it
2015-01-19T03:00:26Z beach: What was it?
2015-01-19T03:01:57Z yenda: with trace I saw that there was a "o" missing in the request when called from within "test". It's because I was using *sparql* in the repl and *request* in test and I had corrected sparl only
2015-01-19T03:02:34Z beach: OK.
2015-01-19T03:03:03Z ruste: Bike: Maybe I'm missing something but what's the need for all this? Is there not just a path for lisp libraries?
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2015-01-19T03:03:41Z ruste: Why can't I just copy the appropriat folder or lisp file into /usr/lib64/clisp-$(version) and have it work?
2015-01-19T03:03:51Z ruste: s/appropriat/appropriate/
2015-01-19T03:04:40Z ruste: I've just spent the last few hours trying to install a lisp editor and haven't even managed to install the dependencies. It can't be this hard.
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2015-01-19T03:06:02Z Bike: ruste: usually we use quicklisp. you install quicklisp by loading one file and then do (ql:quickload whatever) and you're done.
2015-01-19T03:07:18Z ruste: Quicklisp doesn't have the libraries I need as far as I can tell.
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2015-01-19T03:07:37Z Bike: what do you need?
2015-01-19T03:07:43Z Bike: i would think the editor has installation instructions.
2015-01-19T03:07:53Z ruste: cl-fad and ltk
2015-01-19T03:08:23Z ruste: The editor expects asdf as far as I can tell and I have that it's just one .lisp.
2015-01-19T03:08:35Z ruste: I'm coming from a c background.
2015-01-19T03:08:44Z Bike: quicklisp has both cl-fad and ltk.
2015-01-19T03:09:08Z ruste: Hmm. I'll look try that. I have quicklisp for sbcl but not clisp.
2015-01-19T03:09:24Z ruste: I'd still kind of like to figure out how to do this though.
2015-01-19T03:09:28Z Bike: here's what i'd do: install quicklisp. install cl-fad and ltk. then unzip able sources in quicklisp/local-projects, and asdf will know how to get it.
2015-01-19T03:09:45Z Bike: actually. able's in quicklisp.
2015-01-19T03:09:53Z Bike: so just install quicklisp, then install able. done.
2015-01-19T03:11:42Z Bike: if you're from C you can think of asdf as being like make, but with its own weirdnesses. building a large c library without make or some kind of extra-C automation would obviously be irritating to do.
2015-01-19T03:12:51Z ruste: So asdf builds it but why do I need the asd file after building?
2015-01-19T03:13:28Z Bike: lisp programs aren't made into a single executable file. the asd file also has necessary information on how to _load_ the system into a running lisp.
2015-01-19T03:13:39Z Bike: stuff that in C is handled by ld.so, i suppose.
2015-01-19T03:14:43Z ruste: that makes sense.  Why can't I just put built or unbuilt libraries in the directory specified in the path and have them be loadable though?
2015-01-19T03:15:10Z Zhivago: There are ordering dependencies.
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2015-01-19T03:15:34Z Zhivago: asdf maintains those for you.
2015-01-19T03:15:38Z Bike: you should be able to, if i understand what you mean. asdf just has kind of a, well, overcomplicated system for it.
2015-01-19T03:16:18Z Bike: like that page i linked you says, ~/common-lisp/ and that .local thing should work.
2015-01-19T03:16:38Z ruste: Lets say a.lisp requires b.lisp and b.lisp requires nothing. Why doesn't a.lisp have something at the top that says (load "$path/b.lisp")?
2015-01-19T03:16:48Z ruste: Why bother with an entire extra system?
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2015-01-19T03:17:49Z Bike: well, for example, b.lisp might have already been loaded for some other system that requires it.
2015-01-19T03:18:34Z Bike: which is what require is supposed to handle, but require is so undefspecified as to be pretty useless.
2015-01-19T03:18:55Z Bike: except with the second argument, like i mentioned. kinda.
2015-01-19T03:19:44Z Bike: dependencies in lisp are also sometimes more complicated, like requiring that something has to be loaded before another thing is compiled, versus before it's loaded.
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2015-01-19T03:20:31Z Bike: don't get me wrong, it's all more confusing than it has to be, which is why i'm glad we have quicklisp to paper over some of the problems.
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2015-01-19T03:21:01Z ruste: In c that could be taken care of with something like #ifdef _NAME_H_ or #pragma once. Is there not some analagous method in lisp?
2015-01-19T03:21:32Z Bike: require
2015-01-19T03:21:56Z Bike: also that only covers includes, linking is more involved.
2015-01-19T03:22:07Z loke: ruste: You have to remember there are cases (rare, but existing) where you _want_ a file to be loaded more than once.
2015-01-19T03:22:33Z ruste: Seems like a huge pain in the butt for little reason to me.
2015-01-19T03:22:46Z ruste: Perhaps it will make more sense as I learn more.
2015-01-19T03:22:53Z loke: ruste: Very likely. :-)
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2015-01-19T03:24:58Z loke: ruste: I have come to realise that for beginners, it's sometimes hard to grasp that Lisp is not about the edit→compile→run→repeat cycle, but rather start→(1:edit→test→goto 1)
2015-01-19T03:26:17Z loke: I tried to illustrate this on slides 18 and 19 in a presentation I once did: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1mIHAruC3nbI-CZPVjX7AuRp-bj9xjJima0l6XrHUI6Y/edit?usp=sharing
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2015-01-19T03:38:19Z ruste: I don't think that's what bothers me. It's just that I feel like they've overcomplicated the include system.
2015-01-19T03:38:38Z ruste: I played with guile and had no trouble installing libraries by hand.
2015-01-19T03:38:50Z ruste: clisp, very different.
2015-01-19T03:40:49Z Xach: Guile has not been very good at very much for very long.
2015-01-19T03:41:01Z Xach: It's gotten nicer lately, which is good for guile users.
2015-01-19T03:41:13Z Xach: Common Lisp has a different history and ecosystem.
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2015-01-19T03:42:37Z pillton: It isn't an include system. It modifies the running system.
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2015-01-19T03:43:00Z pillton: (progn (load "a.lisp") (load "a.lisp")) may do different things.
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2015-01-19T03:44:24Z Xach: the trick is multi part: think of something better, then make it, then get people to use it
2015-01-19T03:44:28Z Xach: all parts can be tricky
2015-01-19T03:47:41Z Xach: some parts are easier when one of the speed bumps isn't "it doesn't work with my existing stuff"
2015-01-19T03:49:35Z loke: Hell xach
2015-01-19T03:50:28Z Xach: hello loke
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2015-01-19T04:09:18Z Zhivago: ruste: Think about compiled files that provide macros.
2015-01-19T04:09:49Z Zhivago: The top level isn't declarative as in C.
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2015-01-19T04:36:59Z White_Flame: ruste:  nobody's mentioned it explicitly, but asdf has a variable asdf:*central-registry* which is a list of pathnames to directores where .asd files live
2015-01-19T04:37:19Z White_Flame: pushing dirs onto that allows you to load them via asdf
2015-01-19T04:37:25Z White_Flame: that's its version of a path
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2015-01-19T04:40:21Z White_Flame: also, there is no "include system" in the CL specification, besides "require" which was tacked on and is insufficient.  So system/module/etc building utilities are external to the spec in tools like asdf and quicklisp
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2015-01-19T05:04:50Z beach: It is interesting to me how confusing all these explanations must be to ruste.
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2015-01-19T05:06:10Z beach: I am trying to think of better ones, but I can't find any.
2015-01-19T05:06:26Z Adlai: ruste: what are you previously familiar with?
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2015-01-19T05:06:44Z beach: Adlai: He says he is a C programmer.
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2015-01-19T05:09:10Z Adlai stays out of this discussion, being about as removed from "C programmer" as it gets... not anything against C, just lack of familiarity on my part.
2015-01-19T05:12:03Z pillton: beach: I doubt irc is the best place to "correct" one's priors or expectations.
2015-01-19T05:12:43Z beach: That is probably very true.
2015-01-19T05:13:31Z beach: ... especially since several people simultaneously propose different ways of "correcting" those priors.
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2015-01-19T05:26:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: loke, Yeah. I remember spending a lot of time wondering how to build an executable with SBCL. "I thought it compiled code? Why can't I compile my program?"
2015-01-19T05:26:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: "Every implementation has a different way of doing it?"
2015-01-19T05:26:53Z joshe: "lisp is different"
2015-01-19T05:27:03Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: Yes, it helps to think of Lisp as an operating system. Although that analogy only takes you so far.
2015-01-19T05:28:35Z joshe: and if you think every C implementation isn't different then I dare you to port linux C code and a build system to windows
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2015-01-19T05:29:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: If someone had just said, "It's like your Python REPL, but it compiles definitions to native code.", it would have made more sense to me.
2015-01-19T05:29:56Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: Well, it's not quite, right? Don't you usually build an application in Pyton is such as way as you restart the python interpreter every time you test?
2015-01-19T05:30:21Z Adlai likes http://www.loper-os.org/?p=405 although it's more helpful if you're already more than a little familiar with lisp
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2015-01-19T05:31:36Z joshe: "It's like your python repl, except different things annoy you"
2015-01-19T05:31:59Z loke: I find pretty much everything about python annoying
2015-01-19T05:32:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: nonlocal and global
2015-01-19T05:32:38Z joshe: you get used to it
2015-01-19T05:32:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's like a variable undeclaration./
2015-01-19T05:33:17Z joshe: I hardly ever use closures in python anymore, it confuses people
2015-01-19T05:33:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'll use closures if I want a callback.
2015-01-19T05:34:35Z loke: joshe: People are stupid
2015-01-19T05:35:26Z loke: All the time I look at an overengineered/underfunctional library in Javascript where I'm like: "why on earth do I have to jump through these hoops to extend your system? Why not use a bloody closure?"
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2015-01-19T05:36:42Z joshe: people are unsophisticated when it comes to techniques they are unfamiliar with
2015-01-19T05:37:00Z loke: joshe: Then they should stay the hell away from a progamming environment
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2015-01-19T08:20:02Z jackdaniel: is it ok in macro to search through body argument and if some construct found to inject env? I mean something like (pseudocode) - http://ix.io/fQV/common-lisp
2015-01-19T08:20:32Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: You need to emit fresh lists.
2015-01-19T08:20:55Z Shinmera: Modifying the arguments is not conforming
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2015-01-19T08:21:01Z Shinmera: At least for macros
2015-01-19T08:21:03Z jackdaniel: ok, noted
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2015-01-19T08:27:04Z jackdaniel: but regarding injecting - is there any other way to share some info between nested macro calls without user interaction?
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2015-01-19T08:37:47Z lieven: there used to be COMPILER-LET but it was removed
2015-01-19T08:38:04Z lieven: there's some discussion in the CLHS issue relating to that about alternatives
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2015-01-19T08:41:29Z jackdaniel: the other solution is to use user-reachable variable, but with some agreed prefix, like ^xxx-info, and shadow it with (let ((^xxx-info (push my-info ^xxx-info)) rest-of-xxx)
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2015-01-19T08:46:21Z loke: Isn't the problem that the macro expansions can happen at wildly different times?
2015-01-19T08:47:23Z lieven: and multiple times
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2015-01-19T08:50:28Z jackdaniel: http://ix.io/fQW/common-lisp - i think not, since it's part of lexical-scope of expansion
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2015-01-19T08:52:22Z Shinmera: You could inject your own struct or similar type
2015-01-19T08:52:54Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: what do you mean?
2015-01-19T08:53:08Z Shinmera: Symbol prefixes are almost always the wrong idea
2015-01-19T08:53:14Z Shinmera: because it could lead to accidental conflicts
2015-01-19T08:54:24Z jackdaniel: yes, I'm aware of that, that's why i tought about injecting stuff - yet first solution is bad, because xxx may be nested in the tree, not as (car var)
2015-01-19T08:54:52Z jackdaniel: but ie (cadr var)
2015-01-19T08:55:04Z Shinmera: Having the need to share data between macro forms sounds rather wonky to me.
2015-01-19T08:55:31Z Shinmera: Sounds like they should be only one form, or there shouldn't be any sharing in the first place.
2015-01-19T08:56:10Z jackdaniel: some context maybe - as exercise i want to implement while-like macro, which behaves like while, but you can do something like (jump-up 3), and it jumps three levels up, if there is three while nested loops
2015-01-19T08:56:13Z Shinmera: However, if you absolutely do need to you can throw in some type of data that is otherwise irrelevant and have lower macros traverse the tree looking for those.
2015-01-19T08:56:38Z jackdaniel: three or more *
2015-01-19T08:57:19Z jackdaniel: therefore i need variable, where i can store names of blocks, and which is passed down
2015-01-19T08:57:29Z Shinmera: I can see a way to do this without gross macro-data-sharing using the conditions system.
2015-01-19T08:57:42Z lieven: for that specific one you could just pass along a closure over a go tag. #'(lambda () (go gensym))
2015-01-19T08:58:14Z Shinmera: You could add your own condition type that stores the amount of times you want to jump up, add a handler-case and rethrow if it's still above zero.
2015-01-19T08:58:30Z Shinmera: *add a handler-case around each while that catches it ..
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2015-01-19T08:59:33Z Shinmera is happy to have found a clean solution
2015-01-19T08:59:46Z jackdaniel: yes, that sounds a lot better
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2015-01-19T09:38:49Z pjb: minion: memo for JokesOnYou77: you can use READ to read your file since it's basically a SEXP. But it's not a standard CL sexp, for the use of comma, for example.  You can easily write a readtable so that CL:READ may still read it. http://paste.lisp.org/+343B/1
2015-01-19T09:38:50Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell JokesOnYou77 when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-01-19T09:41:40Z pjb: ruste: you should go back to the future to find a solution to your problem.  The current version of clisp is 2.49+ not 2.64.
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2015-01-19T09:48:19Z jdz: jackdaniel: or the macro could cons up the name of block it uses for the expansion in a special variable, so inner expansions will be able to reference all enclosing ones
2015-01-19T09:53:58Z pjb: jackdaniel: you can use flet/labels/macrolet/symbol-macrolet.
2015-01-19T09:57:26Z pjb: (defun tool (x) (declare (ignore x)) (error "~S should be called only inside ~S" 'tool 'with-tool)) (defmacro with-tool (&body body) `(flet ((tool (x) `(hi ',x))) ,@body)) (defmacro use-tool (x) `(tool ',x))  (with-tool (print (use-tool 42)))
2015-01-19T09:58:21Z pjb: For more privacy, you may also use a non-export symbol for tool, or a symbol prefixed with %, or even an uninterned symbol with (progn … #1=#:tool … #1# …).
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2015-01-19T10:24:50Z Cymew: Anyone good with THROW and CATCH? I just read section 3 in CLtL2 and found that example with FUN1, FUN2 and FUN3 confusing. The way I read the docs, CATCH should evaluate its form after the tag, but doesn't FUN2 evaluate that multipplication?
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2015-01-19T10:26:50Z pjb: url?
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2015-01-19T10:29:08Z pjb: Cymew: the multiplication doesn't get a chance to be executed.
2015-01-19T10:29:17Z pjb: Remember: 1- evaluate arguments. 2- call the function.
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2015-01-19T10:29:50Z pjb: If evaluating the arguments leads to a non-local exit, then 2 never occurs (and even the rest of the arguments, given the left-to-right rule for the evaluation of arguments).
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2015-01-19T10:31:47Z Cymew: It's the left-to-right rule that trips me up, and makes me wonder why the multiplication is not evaluated, actually.
2015-01-19T10:33:24Z Cymew: I saw now that the same example in in the clhs section 3.1.6
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2015-01-19T10:35:03Z Cymew: So, if I buy that the function is never called due to the non-local exit, why is the whole form evaluted in FUN1? Shouldn't that just return the value returned from the THROW as well?
2015-01-19T10:35:17Z Cymew: i.e. 7 instead of 10?
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2015-01-19T10:40:14Z lieven: the most nested handler stops the throw
2015-01-19T10:42:03Z Cymew: Right, so the function is not evaulated in FUN2, so it returns 7. But why is the form evaluated in FUN1 then? Shouldn't that form only be evaluated if the outer handler gets invoked? that's where I'm loosing it. I can see why the result is not 35, but I feel it should be 7 instead of 10.
2015-01-19T10:42:42Z Cymew: non-local exits I've stayed far off until now...
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2015-01-19T10:44:05Z lieven: as far as fun1 is concerned, it's just the same as (catch 'trap (+ 3 7))
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2015-01-19T10:51:12Z quazimodo: Ok i think I have a decent CLOS question
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2015-01-19T10:53:29Z Cymew: lieven: Right, but since it's not catching the trap, I expected it to just exit, thus returning the value returned from FUN2
2015-01-19T10:53:35Z quazimodo: in my module (in a contrived situation because I'm not so smart) I have two classes, File and Person. I want to have a function to "touch" these, only the semantics are entirely different while the verb is the same. i can (touch file) and that will update the timestamps on it, while i want to (touch my-person "gently") to cause a physical touch thing to happen to person. What happens here
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2015-01-19T10:53:50Z quazimodo: i am forced to use different function names in any case, aren't I
2015-01-19T10:54:15Z lieven: Cymew: there is no trap anymore. fun2 has a normal return from the CATCH form.
2015-01-19T10:54:24Z quazimodo: the other more important question is, am i even  looking at this the right way?
2015-01-19T10:54:31Z quazimodo: i was told not to view CLOS like any other OO system
2015-01-19T10:54:44Z H4ns: quazimodo: you need to call the functions differently if they have a different signature
2015-01-19T10:55:42Z quazimodo: H4ns: can you give an example of what you'd have done
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2015-01-19T10:58:01Z H4ns: quazimodo: not really, because i don't know what "touch" means.  i would just try to find two different names for the two operations.  if the two have different signatures, it is a hint that they have differing semantics anyway
2015-01-19T10:58:03Z Cymew: lieven: Hmm. I see. Since it was grabbed by a handler there is no trap anymore. Right. I think there are some nuances to this idea about extents that I need to think about.
2015-01-19T10:58:11Z Cymew: lieven: Thanks
2015-01-19T10:58:32Z Cymew: pjb: many thanks for your insight as well. Appreciated.
2015-01-19T11:00:14Z quazimodo: H4ns: i dont know about that. I shouldn't compare but it's my only reference point, but a method like open in other languages has so many different signatures
2015-01-19T11:00:38Z H4ns: quazimodo: not so in common lisp.
2015-01-19T11:01:06Z quazimodo: ok
2015-01-19T11:01:20Z Cymew: quazimodo: Am I totally missing your point, or are you meaning you are implying you are using multiple dispatch depening on the argument of the TOUCH being a Person or a File?
2015-01-19T11:01:31Z quazimodo: Cymew: kindo f
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2015-01-19T11:01:55Z Cymew: ...not sure I can contribute anything useful. Just curious about what you're doing
2015-01-19T11:01:59Z quazimodo: i guess i'm curious why multiple dispath doesn't let the methods of a generic function decide on what they need to work
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2015-01-19T11:02:56Z quazimodo: a generic function 'open' could have a billion different ways of working depending on the class it's working on, so yeah. I'm trying to see the wisdom in not doing that
2015-01-19T11:03:28Z H4ns: quazimodo: there is no "wisdom" behind that.  it is just a different style of dispatch.
2015-01-19T11:04:02Z H4ns: quazimodo: but here is some explanation:
2015-01-19T11:04:57Z H4ns: quazimodo: in common lisp, dispatching can depend on multiple arguments of a function.  in other languages, dispatch is done only on the basis of the first argument, which can sometimes be implicit.
2015-01-19T11:05:35Z H4ns: quazimodo: so, in the end, it is an efficiency decision.  it would be rather hard to efficiently dispatch on arbitrary argument lists.
2015-01-19T11:09:45Z Zhivago: You can always use &rest and decode it after dispatch.
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2015-01-19T11:09:48Z rick-monster: hmm that's interesting I'm using the library optima to achieve this type of behaviour in my midi sequencer project.  maybe I should think about refactoring everything in CLOS...
2015-01-19T11:10:09Z Zhivago: But what would open dispatch on?
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2015-01-19T11:12:01Z quazimodo: Zhivago: i dont know, simple examples that occur to me could be (defmethod open ((object IO) mode)... ) or (defmethod ((object Jar))...)
2015-01-19T11:12:54Z quazimodo: it's much more intuitively obvious
2015-01-19T11:13:04Z quazimodo: you don't need to remember the names of a billion functions
2015-01-19T11:13:15Z H4ns: quazimodo: what prevents you from doing that?
2015-01-19T11:13:20Z quazimodo: but i mean, i know it'll never change or anything. Was just curious why that design choice was made
2015-01-19T11:13:43Z quazimodo: H4ns: don't you need to use the exact same arguments for each defmethod?
2015-01-19T11:13:45Z Zhivago: Not pathnames, then?
2015-01-19T11:14:11Z H4ns: quazimodo: no.  you can use keyword arguments and those can be different for each method if you like.
2015-01-19T11:14:45Z H4ns: quazimodo: it is just that you need to decide how many positional argument your generic function has because that is what controls the dispatching.
2015-01-19T11:15:56Z quazimodo: ok
2015-01-19T11:16:00Z quazimodo: maybe I'll investigate that
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2015-01-19T11:16:31Z H4ns: we kind of knew that.
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2015-01-19T11:16:47Z Zhivago: I suspect that "pathnames" us the deeper answer.
2015-01-19T11:16:55Z quazimodo: Zhivago: whatcha mean?
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2015-01-19T11:18:20Z Zhivago: That's what open takes.
2015-01-19T11:18:24Z pjb: Cymew: http://paste.lisp.org/+343G
2015-01-19T11:19:13Z quazimodo: Zhivago: it was a contrived example
2015-01-19T11:19:14Z quazimodo: :)
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2015-01-19T11:23:13Z rick-monster: all the different types of midi events are just stored in the sequencer as human-readable plists. Then when I recall an event and send it, I guess the send function probably ends up working harder inspecting those plists than if I used CLOS to keep track of different types of midi event...
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2015-01-19T11:27:32Z H4ns: rick-monster: if you have individual functions that deal with the different event types, using clos would probably make much of your dispatch logic go away
2015-01-19T11:28:06Z H4ns: rick-monster: but then, if your plist based approach already works, why bother changing it now? :)
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2015-01-19T11:28:53Z quazimodo: pjb: do you do commercial lisp work?
2015-01-19T11:29:15Z rick-monster: hmm the thing runs great using sbcl on a laptop. However it's struggling with CCL on the beaglebone arm chip...
2015-01-19T11:29:18Z pjb: I try to use CL professionnaly, yes.
2015-01-19T11:29:40Z H4ns: rick-monster: is the dispatch logic really what causes the struggle?
2015-01-19T11:29:55Z rick-monster: H4ns - no idea!
2015-01-19T11:29:56Z pjb: quazimodo: I'm a free lance CL developer.
2015-01-19T11:29:59Z H4ns: rick-monster: and what does "struggle" really mean?
2015-01-19T11:30:47Z quazimodo: pjb: what kind of clients do you end up servicing?
2015-01-19T11:30:53Z quazimodo: who wants common lisp work done?
2015-01-19T11:30:56Z H4ns: rick-monster: you need to find out before you try to change your software to optimize it. optimizing without proper analysis rarely yields the desired result and almost always causes wasted efforts.
2015-01-19T11:31:14Z pjb: quazimodo: the kind of customers who don't care about the language, ie. final users.
2015-01-19T11:31:49Z rick-monster: so 2 issues when I ported it:
2015-01-19T11:31:49Z rick-monster: 1. latency goes to the point of noticeable and becomes jittery
2015-01-19T11:31:49Z rick-monster: 2. intermittent ffi-related crash
2015-01-19T11:31:55Z quazimodo: pjb: so you script a lot for random people via cl
2015-01-19T11:32:11Z pjb: "a lot" is a big word :-)
2015-01-19T11:32:45Z quazimodo: you sometimes get to use common lisp
2015-01-19T11:32:48Z H4ns: rick-monster: both issues are not likely caused by dispatching over plists instead of using clos, unless your plist dispatch is implemented _very_ inefficiently.
2015-01-19T11:32:50Z quazimodo: haha
2015-01-19T11:32:54Z quazimodo: so what do you do otherwise?
2015-01-19T11:33:16Z rick-monster: possible 1 & 2 related.  Both are possibly nothing to do with method dispatch.  But CPU usage does go to like 30% (viewed via top)
2015-01-19T11:33:43Z H4ns: rick-monster: but you need to be aware that you need to be very careful with (not) creating garbage when you want to use common lisp in a real time setting
2015-01-19T11:33:52Z pjb: Anything that would otherwise bring bread on the table. I can do unix, Android, iOS, MacOSX development.
2015-01-19T11:34:13Z H4ns: rick-monster: the jitter could be caused by the garbage collector.  but you don't know until you know.  use a profiler first.
2015-01-19T11:34:46Z quazimodo: pjb: you seem so very knowledgeable lispwise, how come you don't work fulltime with something like lispworks or similar?
2015-01-19T11:36:07Z pjb: quazimodo: there aren't that may corporations using lisp anyways.  I counted less than one per country in Europe.
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2015-01-19T11:40:20Z rick-monster: H4ns is the profiler in slime a good place to start?  Actually just thought of something else.  Should probably also try running this on the arm device outside of emacs to see if that obviously changes performance...
2015-01-19T11:41:49Z H4ns: rick-monster: the profiler that is accessible from slime is a good start to pinpoint performance problem.
2015-01-19T11:47:15Z rick-monster: I'll take it for a spin.  Pretty sure the whole thing could be made *much* more efficient by encoding/decoding the raw midi bytes using lisp, rather my current complex way of using cffi to call alsa sequencer api, then mapping the C structs onto plists
2015-01-19T11:48:29Z H4ns: that sounds wasteful, yes.
2015-01-19T11:48:42Z H4ns: ffi interactions can be surprisingly expensive if one is not careful.
2015-01-19T11:48:54Z H4ns: (consing up intermediate objects and the like)
2015-01-19T11:51:41Z rick-monster: I only realised after building this monstrosity that you can actually directly interface to usb midi device or similar by writing the midi bytes directly to /dev/snd/midi0d0 or similar
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2015-01-19T11:55:33Z rick-monster: maybe a good compromise would be to have lisp read/write the raw midi messages from the alsa api but still retain the ability to dispatch via alsa sequencer (rather than hogging the physical device)
2015-01-19T11:56:17Z H4ns: why bother?  do you have other synth software running on the same midi interface?
2015-01-19T11:56:36Z Cymew: pjb: Thanks for the stepper. Way nicer than the usual vanilla TRACE!
2015-01-19T11:58:17Z H4ns: a good reason to use the alsa sequencer would be that it can do the realtime scheduling well.
2015-01-19T12:00:03Z rick-monster: h4ns - that was my original motivation.  Until I discovered sbcl on the laptop doesn't seem to give me noticeable timing jitter running without scheduling...
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2015-01-19T13:29:10Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2015-01-19T14:05:08Z zyg: in CL-GD I have a brush containing pixels with different alpha values, those pixels "tears through" the image background, why? (does the question make sense?)
2015-01-19T14:09:04Z H4ns: zyg: the alpha channel's purpose is making the background tear through.
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2015-01-19T14:13:27Z zyg: I'm using the "brushed-arc.png" in the CL-GD as example. There the brush has a transparent color, and it works. If I replace that brush image, with an image loaded from PNG, it will also work (as in, where there is no pixels in the brush-image I can see the canvas-image background). But where there are semi-transparent pixels in the brush, those are drawn as if the canvas background pixels didn't exist.
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2015-01-19T14:16:15Z H4ns: ah, understood.  i fear that this is more of a gd question than a cl-gd question, really.  try looking at the formats of your png and the brushed-arc.png file using identify (from imagemagick) - maybe you need to supply the brush in a different png encoding.
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2015-01-19T14:20:22Z zyg: H4ns: thanks! didn't know that command existed :) .. I'll dig around some more
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2015-01-19T14:32:05Z |3b|: zyg: might also look at ALPHA-BLENDING-P
2015-01-19T14:33:23Z zyg: 3b: I've played around with a-b-p and transparent-color (in all combination between canvas and brush).
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2015-01-19T16:49:16Z xyh: are there functions to save a common-lisp number to an array of :ELEMENT-TYPE '(UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) ??
2015-01-19T16:49:53Z |3b|: (setf (aref ...) ..) same as saving any other value to any other array
2015-01-19T16:50:52Z |3b|: possibly also with some combination of coerce/mod/floor/truncate/etc depending on the value and type of the number
2015-01-19T16:51:09Z xyh: I mean number bigger then 256
2015-01-19T16:51:58Z splittist_: xyh: you mean something like http://quickdocs.org/binary-types/ ?
2015-01-19T16:52:03Z |3b|: well, they don't fit, so you need to decide how to make them fit and do that before trying to store them
2015-01-19T16:52:06Z Grue`: well, you didn't specify the exact encoding so... (map '(vector (unsigned-byte 8)) #'char-code (princ-to-string "212343"))
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2015-01-19T16:53:04Z |3b|: if you mean serializing arbitrary numbers, printing to string and serializing that would probably be easiest
2015-01-19T16:53:31Z |3b|: if you mean integers of some specific range, you could use LDB to extract octets
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2015-01-19T16:55:13Z xyh: LDB looks cool.  I am writing a vm.
2015-01-19T16:55:15Z xyh: thx
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2015-01-19T17:31:45Z xyh: the naming of common-lisp's function is really bad ...
2015-01-19T17:31:45Z xyh: (ldb (byte s i) n)
2015-01-19T17:31:45Z xyh: ==
2015-01-19T17:31:45Z xyh: (fetch#bits :size s :index i :number n)
2015-01-19T17:32:57Z p_l: xyh: that name is older than Common Lisp by over a decade, and comes from specific CPU instruction
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2015-01-19T17:33:29Z p_l: (just like CONS, CAR, CDR, all come from assembler macros used in original lisp implementation)
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2015-01-19T17:34:15Z p_l: xyh: and Common Lisp had a certain focus on easy porting of pre-existing code
2015-01-19T17:34:40Z p_l: thus some things weren't renamed
2015-01-19T17:36:54Z |3b|: also, you can store the value returned by (byte s i) and pass around to pass to LDB, which is a bit harder with keywords
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2015-01-19T17:37:24Z p_l: but you can create macros to handle LDB/DPB etc. for you
2015-01-19T17:38:01Z xyh: yeah, I rename them to fit my understanding of these functions.
2015-01-19T17:39:02Z p_l: xyh: my first serious macro involved generating accessors for binary fields extracted from file using LDB
2015-01-19T17:39:07Z p_l: (and test-bit etc.)
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2015-01-19T17:45:23Z xyh: p_l: you lib is com/informatimago right ?
2015-01-19T17:45:34Z p_l: no
2015-01-19T17:45:39Z p_l: that's pjb
2015-01-19T17:45:48Z xyh: oh!
2015-01-19T17:45:54Z xyh: sorry
2015-01-19T17:46:23Z xyh: p_l: a link please :)
2015-01-19T17:46:47Z Grue`: I think Practical Common Lisp has something like that
2015-01-19T17:46:55Z Grue`: in MP3 parsing chapter
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2015-01-19T17:52:25Z p_l: xyh: https://github.com/unya/linux-vm-analizer/blob/master/utility.lisp <--- the macro
2015-01-19T17:52:40Z p_l: xyh: https://github.com/unya/linux-vm-analizer/blob/master/pagemap.lisp <--- use case
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2015-01-19T17:59:43Z scymtym: xyh: https://github.com/froydnj/nibbles could also be useful
2015-01-19T18:00:59Z xyh: https://www.refheap.com/96283
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2015-01-19T18:12:20Z |3b|: xyh: (apply #'aref (cons array index-list)) should be (apply #'aref array index-list), no need to build a list for it
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2015-01-19T18:13:03Z |3b|: (and don't expect any CL programmer to want to look at/work on code using those functions
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2015-01-19T18:17:16Z |3b|: also, wrapping SETF with functions like that loses functionality, compare (setf (ldb (byte 8 8) (aref some-array 1)) 123) with (save#bits :value 123 :bits (aref some-array 2) :size 8 :index 8)
2015-01-19T18:18:01Z |3b| had to read the code to figure out which of :value :bits :size :index meant what, so i don't even think that helps readability
2015-01-19T18:21:13Z jasom: anybody here use cl-prevalence?
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2015-01-19T18:27:45Z jasom: anyway I was wondering if there is a good way to add a slot to all objects in cl-prevalence
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2015-01-19T18:38:35Z xyh: |3b|: these functions will be mapped to the vm's primitive-functions, (so I have to de-macro the interfaces of them anyway)
2015-01-19T18:38:41Z xyh: and the vm is for a Forth-like language. (the terms FETCH & SAVE are from Forth)
2015-01-19T18:38:57Z xyh: CL programmers very likely will want to look at/work on my code, because the design of the vm (and the language) is very interesting :).
2015-01-19T18:40:27Z nyef: ... As a Forth programmer, I can state that I don't recognize "FETCH" and "SAVE" as being Forth terms.
2015-01-19T18:40:33Z xyh: and I will provide a general interface to embed other languages in to common-lisp code.
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2015-01-19T18:41:29Z xyh: nyef: oh! sorry.  they are not!  in Forth, FETCH is @, and SAVE is !
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2015-01-19T18:42:03Z nyef: I figured that much, I was just pointing out that the terms don't seem to be from Forth. d-:
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2015-01-19T18:56:33Z jasom: how do I get something resembling the path of a lisp source when using asdf?  *load-truename* yields the name of the fasl, and *compile-truename* will be nil at load-time
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2015-01-19T18:57:19Z Bike: people do #.*compile-truename*, I think
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2015-01-19T19:04:26Z Grue`: jasom: (asdf:system-relative-pathname :system filename)
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2015-01-19T19:05:03Z jasom: Grue`: thanks
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2015-01-19T19:28:27Z pjb: jasom: use (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-source-op :system) instead of  (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :system)!
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2015-01-19T20:23:54Z xyh: is there a standard function like VECTOR->LIST ?
2015-01-19T20:24:19Z nyef: clhs coerce
2015-01-19T20:24:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm
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2015-01-19T20:24:46Z xyh: thx nyef
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2015-01-19T20:32:55Z CrazyWoods: Are there someone here doing gui programming using lisp?
2015-01-19T20:33:26Z shka: CrazyWoods: yes, there is a drawning application written in common lisp
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2015-01-19T20:33:56Z shka: also there is a application acting as any airplane database (or something) for windows
2015-01-19T20:34:09Z shka: and for unix as well i think
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2015-01-19T20:34:19Z CrazyWoods: shka: links?
2015-01-19T20:34:24Z p_l: piano.aero
2015-01-19T20:34:31Z shka: p_l: thanks
2015-01-19T20:34:45Z shka: that was the airplane application
2015-01-19T20:34:54Z CrazyWoods: shka: ok
2015-01-19T20:34:55Z p_l: that's the aircraft calculator application for airlines and vendors
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2015-01-19T20:35:06Z p_l: CrazyWoods: Generally, commercial lisps make it easy to build GUI
2015-01-19T20:35:22Z shka: CrazyWoods: it is used all over the world, btw ;-)
2015-01-19T20:35:36Z shka: and it was written by one talented person
2015-01-19T20:35:56Z shka: anyway, i wanted to ask a question
2015-01-19T20:35:57Z p_l: ClozureCL makes it somewhat easy too on Mac, sometimes on other platforms (if you manage to build the necessary parts)
2015-01-19T20:36:26Z shka: i'm reading fairly old ebook
2015-01-19T20:36:40Z shka: in fact author states that it was written in concordia
2015-01-19T20:36:48Z pjb: Yay!
2015-01-19T20:36:50Z shka: and author worked for symbolics
2015-01-19T20:36:56Z shka: it
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2015-01-19T20:37:13Z shka: it's title is "object oriented programming in common lisp"
2015-01-19T20:37:20Z CrazyWoods: p_l: how about Lispworks?
2015-01-19T20:37:37Z shka: however, some informations here seems to be either outdated, or wring
2015-01-19T20:37:55Z pjb: Yes, Lisp Machines existed before Common Lisp.
2015-01-19T20:37:57Z shka: for instance describe is described as a generic function which is simply wrong
2015-01-19T20:38:03Z p_l: CrazyWoods: Piano is currently developed on LispWorks
2015-01-19T20:38:14Z pjb: But outdated and wrong are very strong words in the lisp world.
2015-01-19T20:38:19Z p_l: shka: a case of implementation difference
2015-01-19T20:38:35Z shka: p_l: fair enough
2015-01-19T20:38:52Z shka: however, there is something else that confusese me here
2015-01-19T20:38:54Z p_l: I think it was also written a bit before final ANSI standard
2015-01-19T20:39:01Z CrazyWoods: p_l: so commercial would be a good start for gui programming, right?
2015-01-19T20:39:02Z Xach: describe-object is a generic function.
2015-01-19T20:39:20Z p_l: CrazyWoods: if you can afford to buy it? Sure
2015-01-19T20:39:22Z shka: p_l: 1989
2015-01-19T20:39:32Z p_l: shka: and final version of the standard is 1994
2015-01-19T20:39:45Z Xach: shka: that is a good book in general
2015-01-19T20:39:46Z shka: it was written beffore nirvana realesed first album
2015-01-19T20:39:56Z shka: anyway
2015-01-19T20:40:13Z shka: my question, after background has been setted
2015-01-19T20:40:16Z pjb: And I don't remember any rule prohibiting implementations to define standard functions as generic function.  Is there one?
2015-01-19T20:40:24Z p_l: don't think so
2015-01-19T20:40:50Z CrazyWoods: p_l: :)
2015-01-19T20:41:26Z shka: book describes class precedence in the multiple inheritance scenario
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2015-01-19T20:42:18Z CrazyWoods: p_l: is it a good practical to seperator business logic with UI?
2015-01-19T20:42:31Z shka: and it says that "each class definition sets the precedence order of its direct superclasses"
2015-01-19T20:43:50Z Xach has several years of quicklisp download stats now loaded into a proper database and ready to analyze
2015-01-19T20:43:51Z shka: and because of that when class c inherits class a1 and b1 (and b1 has parent: b2) you are getting the following order
2015-01-19T20:44:05Z shka: Xach: share it once you can :-)
2015-01-19T20:44:11Z p_l: CrazyWoods: My general suggestion would be to start from the data you're manipulating, then what you're doing with it, and then figure out a gui for it, and don't make the gui intertwined with business logic - it makes it harder to reuse the logic etc.
2015-01-19T20:44:21Z shka: c, a1, b1, b2
2015-01-19T20:45:11Z shka: because a1 if leftmost to the b1 on the list
2015-01-19T20:45:29Z shka: is this is actually standarised?
2015-01-19T20:45:41Z CrazyWoods: p_l: Then using IPC to communicate?
2015-01-19T20:46:04Z shka: and yes, it is really nice book
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2015-01-19T20:46:08Z |3b|: clhs 4.3.5
2015-01-19T20:46:08Z specbot: Determining the Class Precedence List: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_ce.htm
2015-01-19T20:46:28Z p_l: CrazyWoods: or just structure your code into definite layers, i.e. don't mix business logic into GUI code and vice versa
2015-01-19T20:46:53Z shka: |3b|: thanks
2015-01-19T20:46:55Z Xach: when did specbot start doing that?
2015-01-19T20:46:58Z Xach: i like it.
2015-01-19T20:47:21Z shka: Xach: it evolves
2015-01-19T20:47:22Z CrazyWoods: p_l: i see
2015-01-19T20:47:37Z shka: soon it will send terminator to the past
2015-01-19T20:47:38Z Xach: shka: not very quickly. glad to see it does still happen though.
2015-01-19T20:47:43Z p_l: CrazyWoods: it's generally sound idea no matter the language
2015-01-19T20:48:06Z shka: to kill G.S. before he will be able to work on java
2015-01-19T20:48:14Z CrazyWoods: p_l: Are you using commercial lisp?
2015-01-19T20:49:00Z p_l: no, but I tested few a bit
2015-01-19T20:50:32Z CrazyWoods: p_l: Are you doing gui programming?
2015-01-19T20:50:53Z shka: well i hope that i can finally understand clos a little bit better with that book
2015-01-19T20:50:59Z p_l: not right now. I haven't really dealt with GUI programming since Delphi, to be honest
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2015-01-19T20:51:15Z shka: a bit sad that we don't have more books about clos
2015-01-19T20:52:00Z p_l: well, there's always AMOP, and it kinda kills the competition in some ways
2015-01-19T20:52:01Z Xach: PCL is very good on CLOS.
2015-01-19T20:52:10Z Xach: Winston & Horn has a good bit on CLOS
2015-01-19T20:52:17Z p_l: Winston & Horn?
2015-01-19T20:52:37Z pjb: minion: Winston & Horn?
2015-01-19T20:52:38Z minion: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
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2015-01-19T20:52:56Z Xach: 3rd edition, anyway
2015-01-19T20:52:59Z pjb: Strangely enough, google gives the right answer.
2015-01-19T20:53:07Z pjb: (< minion google).
2015-01-19T20:53:08Z Fade: see also, AMOP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_the_Metaobject_Protocol
2015-01-19T20:53:21Z Fade: AMOP is an amazing book.
2015-01-19T20:53:26Z shka: Fade: do you want to boil my brain? ;-)
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2015-01-19T20:53:51Z Fade: I prefer not to kill the meat that hosts the mind.
2015-01-19T20:56:51Z shka: seriously though, amop is a bit… fast for me
2015-01-19T20:57:04Z shka: mini clos as a first chapter?
2015-01-19T20:57:12Z shka: really? -_-'
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2015-01-19T21:02:36Z Fade: well, if you've already used CLOS in anger, it's merely brisk.
2015-01-19T21:03:17Z nyef: I might finally, more than a decade after having bought the book, be able to read and understand that first chapter.
2015-01-19T21:03:51Z Fade: I'm quite skeptical that you found it so opaque, nyef. :)
2015-01-19T21:07:41Z nyef: I bought it before I started hacking Lisp. And I only started using CLOS more recently.
2015-01-19T21:07:43Z playnu_com_ar_: Any link or tutorial of how to debug compilation and runtime errors in CL, the compile erros are pretty annoying and Generic:  "Serious errors encountered during compilation of ..." And a cryptic ASDF messages.
2015-01-19T21:08:27Z nyef: playnu_com_ar_: The actual errors should be higher up in the output, assuming that the output wasn't muffled by anything.
2015-01-19T21:09:34Z Xach: In sbcl, the line will start with ERROR: or WARNING:
2015-01-19T21:10:25Z Xach: playnu_com_ar_: the direct answer is "no, there isn't a tutorial". it's just accumulated experience floating around.
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2015-01-19T21:15:03Z playnu_com_ar_: in the top of the output i found a call to compile file, should i to compile function per function to get a proper output? Or is just i am using CCL, and not other compiler with a better output?
2015-01-19T21:15:16Z CrazyWoods: p_l: are there resources & document about communication among different languages?
2015-01-19T21:16:16Z Xach: playnu_com_ar_: hard to say. is it feasible to paste the output & error message to paste.lisp.org?
2015-01-19T21:16:22Z Xach: playnu_com_ar_: maybe someone here can make sense of it
2015-01-19T21:17:28Z pjb: playnu_com_ar_: http://cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger
2015-01-19T21:18:02Z pjb: playnu_com_ar_: http://www.mozartreina.com/sldb-or-debugger.html
2015-01-19T21:18:33Z pjb: So contrarily to what naysayers say, there are tutorials about debugging.
2015-01-19T21:19:31Z nyef: pjb: Doesn't cover compilation errors, I note, which rather defeats the point with respect to the issue at hand.
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2015-01-19T21:20:35Z playnu_com_ar_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145287
2015-01-19T21:21:02Z playnu_com_ar_: the output is about the call to sly and ccl compilation, sorry if i am posting so much
2015-01-19T21:21:49Z Xach: playnu_com_ar_: not at all. it's actually a bit too little. but it helps! can you try using the repl and calling (compile-file "ccore.lisp") -- using the full pathname to ccore.lisp
2015-01-19T21:22:59Z pjb:  (compile-file "ccore.lisp" :verbose t :print t) ; rather
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2015-01-19T21:27:39Z playnu_com_ar_: THANKS! compile with :verbose and :print shows me everything! That should be in a tutorial
2015-01-19T21:27:46Z playnu_com_ar_: pjb: thanks
2015-01-19T21:27:49Z pjb: it's in:
2015-01-19T21:27:51Z pjb: clhs compile-file
2015-01-19T21:27:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm
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2015-01-19T22:18:09Z drmeister: Does slime-macroexpand-all fully expand all macros in an expression.  To do this swank would need a code-walker - I havent tried it because I'm debugging clasp at the moment and I don't have slime working.
2015-01-19T22:18:42Z drmeister: Related question:  Is there an ASDF system out there for fully expanding macros?
2015-01-19T22:19:12Z Grue`: clhs macroexpand
2015-01-19T22:19:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm
2015-01-19T22:19:32Z Grue`: fully expands macro
2015-01-19T22:19:50Z nyef: Grue`: Not in the sense of needing a codewalker, though.
2015-01-19T22:19:51Z Grue`: oh wait, I get it
2015-01-19T22:20:02Z drmeister: Right. FULLY expand.
2015-01-19T22:20:11Z xyh: any examples of calling other languages functions in common-lisp ? and ideas how should I design an interface between them ?
2015-01-19T22:20:12Z Grue`: I don't think SLIME expands like this either?
2015-01-19T22:20:19Z Xach: drmeister: i can't tell if macroexpand-dammit does that or not
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2015-01-19T22:20:45Z Xach: drmeister: the waters paper that explains some uses of the pretty-printer also shows a macroexpand-all implementation
2015-01-19T22:20:57Z Xach: xyh: lots of examples of calling C
2015-01-19T22:22:03Z drmeister: xyh: I wrote a whole new Common Lisp implementation that enables Common Lisp code to freely interoperate with C++ code.
2015-01-19T22:22:18Z drmeister: xyh: What language did you want to call?
2015-01-19T22:23:15Z xyh: drmeister: I am embeding a Forth-lime language (designed by me) in common-lisp, by implement the language's VM in common-lisp.
2015-01-19T22:23:27Z xyh: * Forth-like
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2015-01-19T22:24:19Z drmeister: I think you will have to roll your own.
2015-01-19T22:24:52Z xyh: yes I plan to
2015-01-19T22:25:36Z nyef: xyh: A simple approach might be to have a function that exports a given Lisp string to the Forth environment and invokes INTERPRET.
2015-01-19T22:28:05Z xyh: nyef: I will write some docs latter, and post a link to my docs here.
2015-01-19T22:29:24Z scymtym: drmeister: there is a code-walking MACROEXPAND-ALL in SBCL's contrib/sb-cltl2/macroexpand.lisp
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2015-01-19T22:35:33Z drmeister: scymtym: Thanks.
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2015-01-19T23:00:54Z akkad: There is no thread support in this instance. Hmm, any alternatives to bordeaux threads that fall back to green threads in this case?
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2015-01-19T23:11:55Z fe[nl]ix: akkad: bordeaux-threads uses whatever the host provides
2015-01-19T23:12:17Z fe[nl]ix: on CMUCL, it's green threads, on SBCL that's SMP threads
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