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2015-01-18T00:08:21Z jgrant: Is it currently possible to build SBCL with GCL?
2015-01-18T00:09:10Z jasom: is there a way to list all slots in an object?
2015-01-18T00:10:05Z Bike: yeah, mop. class-slots i think.
2015-01-18T00:10:06Z Shinmera: jasom: With MOP, yes
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2015-01-18T00:10:36Z Shinmera: jasom: you'll want CLASS-SLOTS or CLASS-DIRECT-SLOTS.
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2015-01-18T00:12:07Z Shinmera: (and then probably SLOT-DEFINITION-NAME on the returned effective-slot-definition instances)
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2015-01-18T00:25:28Z jasom: thanks; I ended up just using describe
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2015-01-18T00:45:33Z Xach: jgrant: no way.
2015-01-18T00:45:41Z k-stz: is it true that swank code live-editing only works with multi-threading support?
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2015-01-18T00:46:05Z Xach: k-stz: live-editing like graphics or sound stuff?
2015-01-18T00:46:37Z k-stz: Xach: graphics yes, in this case though the window manager stumpwm
2015-01-18T00:46:58Z Xach: yes, you need threads
2015-01-18T00:47:04Z jgrant: Xach: Yeah, kinda got past that pipe dream already, I'm trying to get some decent CL in GNU Guix.
2015-01-18T00:47:15Z jgrant: Looks like it'll probably be Clisp for now.
2015-01-18T00:47:15Z k-stz: according to emacswiki article on it if it is compiled with clisp it will freeze when trying to create a swank-server
2015-01-18T00:47:25Z k-stz: ok
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2015-01-18T00:48:40Z Xach: clisp should work
2015-01-18T00:48:46Z Xach: for jgrant, not k-stz
2015-01-18T00:49:26Z jgrant: Xach: Ah, okay.
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2015-01-18T02:17:17Z axion: what would be the best way to create a 2d array of random integers within a certain range?
2015-01-18T02:18:19Z nyef: minion: advice on depends?
2015-01-18T02:18:20Z minion: You can't expect automated advice for everything.
2015-01-18T02:18:21Z zRecursive: clhs make-array
2015-01-18T02:18:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
2015-01-18T02:18:22Z nyef: Aww.
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2015-01-18T02:20:49Z axion: that's helpful
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2015-01-18T02:27:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-01-18T02:28:41Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-01-18T03:25:15Z beach: So how hard would it be to turn trace output into presentations in SLIME?
2015-01-18T03:26:21Z Quadrescence: And, for extra credit, how hard would it be to fix Slime so that #+#:foo (form) doesn't blast me with annoying warnings that pop up in another window?
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2015-01-18T03:33:18Z theseb: i've said this before but let me say it again because it is new to me.....if we "live" in emacs for most of our computing we are essentially living in a "lisp machine"
2015-01-18T03:33:34Z theseb: not exactly like ye olde Lisp Machine but it is what we got
2015-01-18T03:34:01Z theseb: Emacs is like a lisp based "overlay" over a computer...a VM if you will
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2015-01-18T03:34:29Z theseb: agree?
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2015-01-18T03:34:55Z Zhivago: It's an editor running an embarrassingly crap lisp dialect.
2015-01-18T03:35:09Z Bike: you know how there's that tumblr taking sicp quotes and melding them with king james' version?
2015-01-18T03:35:47Z Zhivago: Does it have the one about bears eating children?
2015-01-18T03:35:58Z theseb: Zhivago: yes but there's an advanced effort to move Emacs to scheme called Guile Emacs
2015-01-18T03:36:03Z White_Flame: http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/
2015-01-18T03:36:19Z theseb: Zhivago: it ain't CL but it is sure better than EL
2015-01-18T03:37:05Z beach: There is a parallel movement to move Elisp towards Common Lisp.
2015-01-18T03:37:09Z Zhivago: theseb: In which case it wipl still be an editor, probably repurposed as a crap windows system.
2015-01-18T03:37:22Z jgrant: beach: It doesn't have nearly as much momentum.
2015-01-18T03:37:45Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
2015-01-18T03:38:01Z Zhivago: Anyhow, if it works for you ...
2015-01-18T03:38:07Z jgrant: Guilemacs is practically a dropdown replacement now.
2015-01-18T03:38:25Z jgrant: Give it one more GSOC and it should be good to go, two at most.
2015-01-18T03:38:26Z theseb: jgrant: yea and it is all because the leader of GuileEmacs is a programming one man powerhouse
2015-01-18T03:38:46Z jgrant: But Emacs is more of a LISP DE, than an Lisp OS.
2015-01-18T03:39:27Z theseb: jgrant: that what i thought for 15+ years...BUT....as you do more and more in Emacs....then it is basically an OS for some def of an OS
2015-01-18T03:39:34Z beach: Is this going to be another debate over whether A is a B or A is a C without defining neither B nor C?
2015-01-18T03:40:04Z jgrant: theseb: Until it has it's own kernel and drivers, I don't consider it as an OS.
2015-01-18T03:40:08Z nyef: beach: Worse, there won't be a definition for A, either. d-:
2015-01-18T03:40:19Z beach: Yeah. :(
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2015-01-18T03:40:43Z theseb: jgrant: Linux/Windows/Mac is the kernel/driver/bootloader of Emacs...that's the deal
2015-01-18T03:41:04Z protist: making some progress with my APL-ization of Lisp: http://pastebin.com/U5u5L0Gu
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2015-01-18T03:41:22Z theseb: Zhivago: beach: all i'm saying to do is bring some lisp good news.....people literally "live" in lisp VMs all over the world
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2015-01-18T03:41:49Z beach: theseb: Thanks for the good news.
2015-01-18T03:41:53Z theseb: :)
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2015-01-18T03:42:15Z theseb: beach: thanks for all the CL help
2015-01-18T03:42:21Z jgrant: theseb: Nah, that's basically saying that I don't run a hybrid system when I run GNU+Linux because it's "replaceable" and not part of the project I care about.
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2015-01-18T03:43:16Z theseb: jgrant: what is a "hybrid system" ?
2015-01-18T03:43:18Z protist: theseb: If only emacs lisp were an acceptable lisp
2015-01-18T03:43:20Z protist: theseb: :p
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2015-01-18T03:43:47Z jgrant: theseb: As in, not all components are owned by the efforts of one project. So, GNU+Linux for example.
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2015-01-18T03:44:35Z jgrant: protist: I mean, to be fair ... it's slowly been getting better, it's stil easier to yank out the core and build Elisp through /not it's codebase/ that it currently lives.
2015-01-18T03:44:44Z theseb: jgrant: linux and *BSDs i think are all rag tag compilations of disparate apps from all over the multiverse
2015-01-18T03:45:03Z protist: jgrant: I want lexical scoping
2015-01-18T03:45:16Z jgrant: theseb: You can get a complete UNIX-like system fro exclusively the Linux kernel and applications from the GNU project.
2015-01-18T03:45:24Z theseb: protist: you misssed the discussion about the emacs port to scheme
2015-01-18T03:45:32Z protist: theseb: I've heard it
2015-01-18T03:45:34Z jgrant: It may not be ideal, but it's doable and that's important to note.
2015-01-18T03:45:57Z protist: theseb: My ideal is a Lisp-1 with unhygenic macros
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2015-01-18T03:46:04Z theseb: jgrant: what does it matter where open/free SW from?
2015-01-18T03:46:17Z protist: theseb: unhygenic macros are most important to me, so I use Common Lisp
2015-01-18T03:46:20Z theseb: protist: yea..i hate hygiene too
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2015-01-18T03:46:31Z theseb: i never shower
2015-01-18T03:46:36Z protist: theseb: yep...hygenic macros fix a non-problem
2015-01-18T03:46:43Z protist: theseb: :p
2015-01-18T03:46:45Z jgrant: theseb: If you are giving a classiorgical assignment to an OS, it's important.
2015-01-18T03:47:18Z protist: theseb: I want my anaphora...I'll use gensym when I need it
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2015-01-18T03:53:55Z Adlai: anaphora it love, anaphora it life
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2015-01-18T04:01:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: I haven't really had any problems with hygenic macros besides everything being more complicated to do.
2015-01-18T04:01:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: The pattern stuff is nice.
2015-01-18T04:02:05Z Zhivago: They're easier to analyze.
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2015-01-18T05:38:01Z beach: ParaSICL is now able to define generic functions using SICL versions of ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION, and ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION-USING-CLASS, and the host version of MAKE-INSTANCE.
2015-01-18T05:38:57Z beach: I had to define these first, because the host version defines bindings in the host global environment, whereas I needed bindings in the ParaSICL first-class global environment.
2015-01-18T05:44:43Z beach: Next step is to replace host functions such as MAKE-INSTANCE, INITIALIZE-INSTANCE, and SHARED-INITIALIZE by target versions.
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2015-01-18T06:09:15Z pjb: beach: AFAICS, implementing presentations would only require a specific Gray stream.  But the problem may be that often the meaningful part of the log messages are pre-formated with (format nil …).  This would argue for the use of "~?" but libraries may still pre-format messages when dispatching log messages to different destinations (instead of using broadcast-streams).
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2015-01-18T06:11:04Z beach: I think I understand.
2015-01-18T06:11:55Z pjb: That is, we should advocate for "~?" and broadcast-stream instead of pre-formating :-)
2015-01-18T06:12:42Z pjb: Oh, I'm not sure broadcast-stream wouldn't pre-format too. :-(
2015-01-18T06:12:49Z beach: clhs ~?
2015-01-18T06:12:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgf.htm
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2015-01-18T06:13:36Z beach: So the way SLIME creates presentations is to parse what comes in on a stream as Common Lisp forms?
2015-01-18T06:13:41Z pjb: it would be logical that the broadcast stream do the pre-formating, and then send just strings to the destination streams.
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2015-01-18T06:14:18Z beach: I am only partially following what you are saying because I don't quite know the mechanism that SLIME uses to create presentations.
2015-01-18T06:14:30Z pjb: slime streams are Gray stream.
2015-01-18T06:14:50Z beach: OK, but I still don't know what mechanism is used to create presentations.
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2015-01-18T06:15:32Z beach: Does SLIME decide that everything coming in on a particular stream can be turned into presentations?
2015-01-18T06:15:52Z pjb: but it's a trivial stream. I guess it's a kludge implemented in slime, not in swank.
2015-01-18T06:17:19Z pjb: There's some magic here: Compare: (defstruct p x y) (make-p :x 1 :y 2) vs. (format t "#S(p :x 1 :y 2)~%")
2015-01-18T06:17:36Z beach: I think I am not explaining my ignorance very well.  Let's see if I can ask a question.  In the SLIME REPL, if I type 234, it turns into a presentation.   If I type (FORMAT T "hello"), the "hello" output is not turned into a presentation.  Why?
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2015-01-18T06:18:38Z beach: Yeah, exactly that.
2015-01-18T06:19:34Z pjb: Ah, there's a contrib/swank-presentation-streams.lisp
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2015-01-18T06:20:05Z beach: Is it that the output from the REPL goes to a different stream, and that everything coming in on that stream is turned into a presentation?
2015-01-18T06:21:01Z beach: I guess there is no point in guessing.  If I really want to know, I can read the SLIME code I suppose.
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2015-01-18T06:22:13Z pjb: In swank-presentation-streams.lisp we see that it works by hooking into implementation specific functions (eg. sb-impl::%print-unreadable-object)
2015-01-18T06:22:59Z beach: I am beginning to understand the problem.
2015-01-18T06:24:26Z beach: I guess I (foolishly) thought that the implementation was altered so that it would call PRESENT rather than PRINT/FORMAT when it wanted to output Common Lisp data.
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2015-01-18T06:25:08Z pjb: No, they still call print or format, and internally record presented objects, and go on with producing the text.
2015-01-18T06:25:41Z pjb: The problem is that while we have (eq *trace-output* *standard-output*), printing on the former produces only strings, while on the later we obtain the presentation.
2015-01-18T06:25:49Z pjb: Typically: (print (make-p :x 1 :y 2) *trace-output*)
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2015-01-18T06:26:14Z pjb: will print a string on *trace-output* and the REPL will print the presentation thru *standard-output* and this is very mysterious.
2015-01-18T06:27:56Z beach: I don't see a difference between printing on *trace-output* and on *standard-output*.
2015-01-18T06:29:51Z beach: ... but I get your point.
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2015-01-18T06:32:06Z jgrant casts invisibility on beach.
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2015-01-18T06:34:13Z zacts: hi
2015-01-18T06:34:18Z zacts: where is there a good list of lisp books?
2015-01-18T06:34:26Z zacts checks out cliki
2015-01-18T06:34:32Z pjb: http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial
2015-01-18T06:34:50Z zacts: neato
2015-01-18T06:34:54Z pjb: http://cliki.net/site/search?query=books
2015-01-18T06:35:25Z Oladon: I don't see Land of Lisp on there -- I'd highly recommend that one
2015-01-18T06:35:38Z zacts: hum.. I own that book, in dead tree form
2015-01-18T06:35:41Z zacts: but I have yet to read it
2015-01-18T06:35:44Z pjb: Oladon: it's a wiki.
2015-01-18T06:36:05Z Oladon: pjb: I realize that.
2015-01-18T06:36:09Z Oladon: zacts: do it!
2015-01-18T06:36:23Z zacts: I'm hoping to also read the racket equivalent of that book
2015-01-18T06:36:25Z zacts: (scheme)
2015-01-18T06:36:32Z zacts: I want to get a feel for the two lisps
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2015-01-18T06:37:14Z pjb: zacts: Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2015-01-18T06:37:14Z zacts: hum.. ok I may just do this Oladon!
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2015-01-18T06:37:47Z zacts: oh neato
2015-01-18T06:37:50Z Oladon: zacts: Conrad Barsky (the author of Land of Lisp) is a very smart guy, and his book is entertaining as well as informative
2015-01-18T06:37:57Z zacts: =)
2015-01-18T06:38:28Z zacts: Oladon: will I learn things that will help me with other languages? I'm getting fascinated by DSLs / interpreters / compilers / parsing / etc.. right now
2015-01-18T06:38:40Z zacts: but I'm still very much a newbie in many ways
2015-01-18T06:38:44Z Oladon: zacts: By learning Lisp, you will, yes.
2015-01-18T06:38:54Z jgrant isn't really a fan of the gamifed style of teaching programming.
2015-01-18T06:39:08Z zacts: Oladon: which main concepts does he introduce in LoL?
2015-01-18T06:39:09Z Oladon: jgrant: To each his own. Some methods work better than others for different people.
2015-01-18T06:39:16Z zacts: I like both styles, personally
2015-01-18T06:39:30Z zacts: sometimes the fun books make me comprehend things in a different way
2015-01-18T06:39:34Z Oladon: zacts: A lot of them. You have only to look at the index. In one chapter he has you write a very basic web server...
2015-01-18T06:39:48Z zacts: like, I think game programming can be really benificial for even every day programmers
2015-01-18T06:39:53Z zacts: and vice versa
2015-01-18T06:40:00Z Oladon: I believe he has 1-2 chapters on macros as well
2015-01-18T06:40:11Z zacts: oh, yes. I really want to learn macros and metaprogramming
2015-01-18T06:40:21Z pjb: Casting Spels in Lisp  Conrad Barski, M.D.  http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html
2015-01-18T06:40:23Z zacts: Oladon: anything on domain specific languages?
2015-01-18T06:40:27Z Oladon: Yes
2015-01-18T06:40:30Z Oladon: He's got a few chapters on that
2015-01-18T06:40:34Z zacts: alright, I'll read the book then
2015-01-18T06:40:38Z Oladon: Heh.
2015-01-18T06:41:08Z jgrant: I like the appealing to a more casual audience, not really staying in the "game" spectrum though. Ideally, I'd like to see an introductory programming box aimed at teaching the everyman (who are not necessarily interested in going into such things as a career), the skills to solve basic problems they may run into.
2015-01-18T06:41:18Z jgrant: Like automating basic things.
2015-01-18T06:41:22Z zacts: Hum.. does PCL have anything about designing programs?
2015-01-18T06:41:30Z zacts: jgrant: I liked the elisp intro guide
2015-01-18T06:41:35Z zacts: but it should have been more involved
2015-01-18T06:41:41Z zacts: it really was just an intro
2015-01-18T06:41:43Z Oladon: jgrant: You mean like codeacademy?
2015-01-18T06:42:01Z zacts: jgrant: or perhaps that o'reilly book on elisp
2015-01-18T06:42:02Z Oladon: I've had quite a bit of success taking non-programmers (people in recruiting, sales, HR, etc.) and teaching them the basics of JS with that
2015-01-18T06:42:23Z jgrant: Oladon: Eh; Code Academy is still teaching for somefactor of expectation of continued study in the longish rnu?
2015-01-18T06:42:26Z jgrant: run*
2015-01-18T06:43:30Z Oladon: I spose
2015-01-18T06:44:00Z jgrant has considered working on such a project, but he'd have to find a decent way to implement a repl in probably Racket.
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2015-01-18T06:44:21Z zacts: heh that intersection of common lisp + emacs lisp + scheme is really cool
2015-01-18T06:44:49Z zacts: jgrant: that would be really cool man
2015-01-18T06:45:21Z zacts: I'm also planning on making a simple VimL Plugin for indenting scheme and lisp
2015-01-18T06:45:30Z zacts: I know of SLime for vim
2015-01-18T06:45:36Z zacts: but I really really don't like it
2015-01-18T06:45:40Z zacts: I do like emacs though
2015-01-18T06:45:42Z zacts: and evil-mode
2015-01-18T06:45:55Z zacts: but, I want to get more of my vim friends to learn some lispy languages with me
2015-01-18T06:46:21Z zacts: I use a plugin with tmux to send expressions from vim to a REPL
2015-01-18T06:46:33Z zacts: tslime.vim
2015-01-18T06:46:53Z zacts: for now I'm using emacs + evil-mode for learning lisp
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2015-01-18T06:48:35Z jgrant has been toying around with a lot of stuff recently, specifically Lisp related due to parenthetical.io .
2015-01-18T06:49:30Z jgrant: Which I was supposed to "launch" today, but moved back to Valentine's Day because I've refactored it from a personal blog to some factor of a general community portal for Lisp. :^P
2015-01-18T06:49:35Z pjb: jgrant: you can put a dot at the end of domain names.  You should even, probably in most cases.  A dot at the end of a domain name makes it absolute.  Without a dot, you the domain is searched in the search list in /etc/resolv.conf
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2015-01-18T06:50:56Z jgrant: Hm?
2015-01-18T06:51:23Z pjb: So if you have search your-isp.com  in your /etc/resolv.conf, and if they have a google.com.your-isp.com domain, then when you type http://google.com/ you may actually get http://google.com.your-isp.com/
2015-01-18T06:51:37Z pjb: but  http://google.com./ will go to goole.
2015-01-18T06:51:40Z pjb: google.
2015-01-18T06:52:34Z pjb: And yes, this is what a single space makes me say, so be careful >:-}
2015-01-18T06:52:39Z jgrant: pjb: Sans the possibly of pooping out an irc.parenthetical.io, I don't see me having many active subdomains. :^P
2015-01-18T06:53:26Z pjb: That said, that site is under construction, so I don't see why?
2015-01-18T06:53:47Z jgrant: I'll probably do uri for parenthetical.media/src/ (gitlab) & parenthetical.io/media/ (mediagoblin) eventually.
2015-01-18T06:53:57Z jgrant: pjb: Don't see why, what?
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2015-01-18T06:54:36Z pjb: http://parenthetical.io/media/ is 404.
2015-01-18T06:54:47Z jgrant: pjb: Yeah, I don't have it set up.
2015-01-18T06:54:50Z pjb: why you've been toying with a lot of stuff.
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2015-01-18T06:56:19Z jgrant: pjb: Well, it originally started as a personal blog and then talking with a friend  -- it's kinda started to morph into a community portal dedicated to lisp and related projects.
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2015-01-18T07:09:01Z beach: Hmm.  I need to replace MAKE-INSTANCE atomically.  If I create the generic function first, then MAKE-INSTANCE will have no methods on it when I need to create the methods on it by calling MAKE-INSTANCE.
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2015-01-18T07:15:01Z beach: Perhaps I should not incrementally update the target environment, and instead initialize the target environment from the host environment.   I need to give that some thought.
2015-01-18T07:17:20Z |3b|: can't you create it with a different (or no) name first to add methods?
2015-01-18T07:17:31Z beach: I could.
2015-01-18T07:18:02Z beach: But then I have to make a special version of the code that give it a different name.
2015-01-18T07:18:35Z beach: In the worst case, that's what I will do.
2015-01-18T07:18:53Z beach: However, I suspect I will have more situations similar to this one.
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2015-01-18T07:55:06Z beach: Ah, I think I know what to do.  I already knew that I need a succession of first-class global environments, but I wasn't sure about the frontier between them.  The first one should be set up to make definitions in the second one.  Problem solve.
2015-01-18T07:55:08Z beach: d
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2015-01-18T09:14:40Z guicho: on clozure cl,  (open "/proc/self/0" :direction :input) --> No such file or directory : "/proc/self/0"
2015-01-18T09:15:36Z guicho: weird
2015-01-18T09:16:47Z guicho: sorry proc/self/fs/0
2015-01-18T09:16:49Z guicho: sorry proc/self/fd/0
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2015-01-18T09:17:42Z H4ns: not sure if it the cause, but /dev/fd/0 maybe?
2015-01-18T09:17:50Z H4ns: also more portable
2015-01-18T09:19:13Z guicho: actually the above case worked, sorry
2015-01-18T09:20:01Z guicho: but in some cases, such like what I am working on, like reading /proc/<child-process-pid>/fd/51, it sometimes fails
2015-01-18T09:20:18Z guicho: maybe the timing, and also I might have to consider /dev/fd
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2015-01-18T09:23:16Z guicho:  --------------------------------
2015-01-18T09:23:17Z guicho:  READ []:
2015-01-18T09:23:17Z guicho:       Unexpected Error: #<CCL::SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR #x302002166D0D>
2015-01-18T09:23:17Z guicho: No such file or directory : "/proc/20835/fd/49"..
2015-01-18T09:23:17Z guicho:  --------------------------------
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2015-01-18T09:24:38Z guicho: when I enabled the debugger and check the same directory while on the debugger, I see the pipe objects
2015-01-18T09:24:56Z guicho: sbcl handle it correctly
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2015-01-18T09:27:18Z guicho: found an interesting things; when I put /dev/fd/0 on the browser addres bar it redirects to an odd adres
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2015-01-18T10:37:04Z Ainieco: hello, how to keep track of index during looping? e.g. (loop for x in y do) i'd like to have 'x' as element of 'y' list and 'i' as index of 'x' in 'y'
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2015-01-18T10:38:12Z ggole: (loop for i from 0 for x in list ...)
2015-01-18T10:39:30Z Ainieco: ggole: cool, thanks!
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2015-01-18T12:09:18Z playnu_com_ar_: (defun test() "hi") (eval `(intern "test")) => ERROR UNDEFINED FUNCTION |HI|
2015-01-18T12:09:45Z playnu_com_ar_: can i avoid the `|`s in the intern?
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2015-01-18T12:10:46Z playnu_com_ar_: sorry, i had an idea.... cl always traduces to MAYUS, xddd! (intern "TEST") fixs that, sorry
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2015-01-18T12:21:49Z Posterdati: hi
2015-01-18T12:23:08Z Posterdati: how can I convert a string address "1.2.3.4" to a iolib address?
2015-01-18T12:24:58Z Posterdati: ok found!
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2015-01-18T12:25:26Z playnu_com_ar_: dotted-to-vector?
2015-01-18T12:25:47Z Posterdati: I do not know what iolib:connect wants
2015-01-18T12:26:31Z playnu_com_ar_: ALT+. in the connect to go to the function description
2015-01-18T12:28:34Z Posterdati: a local-address
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2015-01-18T12:52:39Z guicho: still not achieving a success...
2015-01-18T12:52:40Z guicho: CL-USER> (probe-file "/proc/1054/fd/0")
2015-01-18T12:52:40Z guicho: 0> Calling (NATIVE-TRANSLATED-NAMESTRING "/proc/1054/fd/0")
2015-01-18T12:52:40Z guicho: <0 NATIVE-TRANSLATED-NAMESTRING returned "/proc/1054/fd/0"
2015-01-18T12:52:40Z guicho: 0> Calling (CCL::%REALPATH "/proc/1054/fd/0")
2015-01-18T12:52:40Z guicho: <0 CCL::%REALPATH returned NIL
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2015-01-18T13:00:26Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2015-01-18T13:06:43Z dmiles_afk: why are prolog coded in lisp slower than their c counterparts? (this is not a language war.. i am realyl intereasted)
2015-01-18T13:07:11Z dmiles_afk: is it a lack of optimization flags?
2015-01-18T13:07:32Z dmiles_afk: i know the C versions havbe been worked and worked to make themselves fast
2015-01-18T13:08:12Z guicho: which prolog lisp do you mean?
2015-01-18T13:08:19Z dmiles_afk: not saying that lisp needs to be magical.. but what would the lisp prorammer do to make is as fast?
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2015-01-18T13:08:28Z guicho: sry lisp prolog
2015-01-18T13:09:15Z dmiles_afk: guicho: well i am not using ACL prolgo as a comparison.. but actualyl talkign about CYC in C vs CYC in ALC
2015-01-18T13:09:52Z dmiles_afk: but i am thinking though that i've heard everyone grumble much about PAIP
2015-01-18T13:10:15Z dmiles_afk: of course PAIP was not designed to be fqast
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2015-01-18T13:10:54Z dmiles_afk: CYC C runtime vs   CYC runing in ACL
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2015-01-18T13:12:46Z dmiles_afk: guicho: which would be the fastest you know of?
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2015-01-18T13:15:23Z guicho: Actually I have no prolog experience (other than toy prolog in on-lisp), and I was just interested in which implementation you are comparing prolog in C with prolog in lisp, feeling if I might get some useful information
2015-01-18T13:16:13Z dmiles_afk: I'd say a very unfair comparison of SWI-Prolog vs PAIP
2015-01-18T13:16:21Z dmiles_afk: PAIP-Prolog
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2015-01-18T13:17:49Z dmiles_afk: i need a prolgo comnpatable with swi-prolog and i need a lisp to run some lisp programs on.. . it seems i have to merge a lisp and aprolog codebase.. i spent 6 months combining ECL and SWI-prolog ... but lost that harddrive
2015-01-18T13:18:19Z ggole: O_o
2015-01-18T13:18:29Z dmiles_afk: lost the source of my unified interpreter :(
2015-01-18T13:18:30Z guicho: isn't paip-prolog a personal work by peter norvig?
2015-01-18T13:18:42Z guicho: http://norvig.com/paip/prologc.lisp
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2015-01-18T13:18:58Z dmiles_afk: guicho: right and there are many faster impls
2015-01-18T13:19:08Z dmiles_afk: but they are still 1000s times slower
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2015-01-18T13:19:46Z dmiles_afk: if i was crazy and coded a lisp interp on swi-prolog i'd be lickly 1000s times slower
2015-01-18T13:20:51Z dmiles_afk: secretly i wonder which direction is the slowest
2015-01-18T13:20:59Z guicho: Are faster impls 1000s times slower than C version? hmm
2015-01-18T13:21:32Z dmiles_afk: guicho: yes.. but remember these C version people are optimizing the heck and they are 20 year + codebases
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2015-01-18T13:21:51Z dmiles_afk: erm 20 years to speed their C versions up
2015-01-18T13:22:20Z dmiles_afk: many are 10 times slower than each otehrs
2015-01-18T13:22:33Z ggole: The fast prolog implementations are compiled to machine code anyway.
2015-01-18T13:22:35Z dmiles_afk: (but not 1000s)
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2015-01-18T13:24:06Z ggole: There's a very interesting retrospective on Prolog implementation floating around if you're into that stuff
2015-01-18T13:24:15Z dmiles_afk: am
2015-01-18T13:24:18Z ggole: By van Roy
2015-01-18T13:24:43Z guicho: I guess it is largely due to the algorithmic part, rather than O(1) part (say, lisp compiler vs C compiler).
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2015-01-18T13:26:34Z guicho: Sometimes a well-guided heuristic search on a slow interpreter might beat the exhaustive search on C
2015-01-18T13:26:41Z dmiles_afk: ggole: on this? http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/cv.html
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2015-01-18T13:27:21Z ggole: Yeah, search for The Wonder Years of Sequential Prolog Implementation
2015-01-18T13:27:27Z dmiles_afk: guicho: see this si why i am willing to interpret lisp on PRlog :P it can be well guarded adnd then it wont need to be as fast ;)
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2015-01-18T13:36:28Z guicho: well, finally found out that ccl does not check the errno EACCES raised by  (#_realpath name resultbuf) in %realpath , and it says "file not found" instead of saying "Read or search permission was denied"
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2015-01-18T13:38:57Z guicho: I suspect Im using a bit older version of ccl, better check out the latest
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2015-01-18T13:39:48Z protist: I have an APL interpreter I am building...I want to pass and manipulate the lexical invironment from Common Lisp and use it in my interpreter...can this be done portably?
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2015-01-18T13:40:42Z guicho: hmm nothing seems updated
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2015-01-18T13:43:01Z guicho: A Programming Language?
2015-01-18T13:43:07Z protist: guicho: yes sir
2015-01-18T13:43:23Z protist: here is a small session with the REPL http://pastebin.com/yLZZMvuX
2015-01-18T13:43:54Z protist: I stuff things into the ANSI multi-dim arrays so the data is easy to manipulate when it goes back to Lisp
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2015-01-18T13:53:58Z loke_: guicho: Do you have a full APL implemented?
2015-01-18T13:55:07Z protist: loke_: its mine....not full yet
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2015-01-18T13:55:20Z protist: loke_: have the majority of the parser working and parts of the back-end
2015-01-18T13:55:39Z protist: loke_: thinking about interop before I get into namespaces and how I will handle functions
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2015-01-18T13:57:26Z protist: loke_: I want lexical scoping and closures...and I have a way I have used in the past to do this with the not-fully-parsable grammar....not sure I can fit hand-rolled closures into normal Common Lisp functions though
2015-01-18T13:57:34Z loke_: protist: How's performance?
2015-01-18T13:57:45Z protist: loke_: performance is an abomination right now
2015-01-18T13:57:52Z protist: loke_: the back-end is all prototypical
2015-01-18T13:58:08Z protist: loke_: several instances of O(n^2) where it could be O(n)
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2015-01-18T14:03:10Z protist: loke_: my end goal is to be algorithmically sound, but not fast compared to the Lisp it runs on
2015-01-18T14:03:48Z loke_: there are some interesting opportunities for parallelisation in an apl optimiser
2015-01-18T14:04:38Z protist: very true...I'm going to focus on getting something usable first
2015-01-18T14:05:12Z loke_: Like how F¨X can run F in parallel as long as it doesn't have any side-effects
2015-01-18T14:05:38Z protist: loke_: yep
2015-01-18T14:05:54Z protist: loke_: are you an APLer?
2015-01-18T14:06:06Z protist: loke_: I noticed the ¨ ;)
2015-01-18T14:06:23Z loke_: I've been quite involved in GNU APL, and I wrote the Emacs mode for it
2015-01-18T14:06:40Z protist: loke_: I wrote an APL variant in C with lexical scoping and true closures
2015-01-18T14:07:04Z protist: loke_: it still has some memory leaks though, and I'm not sure I want it to work the way I made it
2015-01-18T14:07:15Z protist: loke_: my APl variant in C is more like Q under the hood
2015-01-18T14:07:22Z protist: APL*
2015-01-18T14:09:04Z protist: loke_: this is the core file that my APL variant loads, written in itself http://pastebin.com/tgTcXRJf
2015-01-18T14:09:47Z loke_: protist: Very nice
2015-01-18T14:09:54Z protist: loke_: thank you :)
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2015-01-18T14:10:35Z protist: loke_: but it was more like Q, so things were arrays or arrays of arrays, but didn't have a shape beyond their length
2015-01-18T14:10:37Z loke_: protist: How do I follow further development?
2015-01-18T14:10:40Z protist: loke_: so no concept of rank
2015-01-18T14:10:58Z protist: loke_: I haven't made it public...I keep a lot of things private :p
2015-01-18T14:11:23Z protist: loke_: talk to me on here hehe...or I can pm you my email if you want to descuss APL implementation
2015-01-18T14:11:30Z protist: discuss*
2015-01-18T14:12:30Z protist: loke_: you might notice I have somewhat Church-encoded cons'es in that core file...and I make use of lexical closures in several instances
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2015-01-18T14:14:53Z playnu_com_ar_: exist a standar `case` but that uses `equalp`?
2015-01-18T14:15:31Z loke_: playnu_com_ar_: no
2015-01-18T14:15:45Z loke_: playnu_com_ar_: If you want to do strings, then I recommend the string-case package
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2015-01-18T14:16:05Z playnu_com_ar_: loke_: thanks
2015-01-18T14:16:08Z loke_: playnu_com_ar_: What are you using equalp for? In my opinion, that one is remarakably useless
2015-01-18T14:16:33Z playnu_com_ar_: loke_: for strings (:
2015-01-18T14:17:13Z loke_: playnu_com_ar_: I presume you meant EQUAL then. EQUALP does case-insignificant comparison, which is never what you want
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2015-01-18T14:20:19Z protist: playnu_com_ar_: I just made it for you http://pastebin.com/35DWhz7D
2015-01-18T14:20:26Z protist: playnu_com_ar_: that is a case that uses equalp
2015-01-18T14:20:46Z protist: playnu_com_ar_: didn't put any default case or fanciness on it, idk if the normal case has that, I don't use it
2015-01-18T14:20:59Z loke_: protist: string-case is much MUCH faster :-)
2015-01-18T14:21:07Z loke_: and no sane person needs equalp for strings :-)
2015-01-18T14:21:21Z protist: loke_: true :)...I solved the general problem hehe
2015-01-18T14:22:35Z protist: loke_: or maybe I should make a macro that makes a case statment that uses the supplied comparison? hahaha
2015-01-18T14:22:36Z playnu_com_ar_: thanks xdd!
2015-01-18T14:22:54Z protist: who is xdd?
2015-01-18T14:22:56Z loke_: protist: You could, or not :-)
2015-01-18T14:23:11Z playnu_com_ar_: XD is a smile icon
2015-01-18T14:23:18Z loke_: playnu_com_ar_: Is it?
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2015-01-18T14:23:43Z shka: good day!
2015-01-18T14:23:48Z protist: playnu_com_ar_: was that a thanks for the macro?...or string-case? lol
2015-01-18T14:24:31Z playnu_com_ar_: protist: the idea of create a macro that compares using a supplied comparison function
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2015-01-18T14:26:17Z protist: playnu_com_ar_: now you can specify the comparison http://pastebin.com/nneLYDT1
2015-01-18T14:26:53Z protist: playnu_com_ar_: note you don't use #'...for example (comp-case = (+ 1 1) (2 "correct) (3 "wrong"))
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2015-01-18T14:30:24Z protist: "correct"*
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2015-01-18T16:15:10Z AeroNotix: how can I export all symbols in a defpackage?
2015-01-18T16:16:01Z H4ns: AeroNotix: you need to list them
2015-01-18T16:16:09Z AeroNotix: H4ns: this is for autogenerated code
2015-01-18T16:16:38Z H4ns: clhs export
2015-01-18T16:16:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_export.htm
2015-01-18T16:17:14Z AeroNotix: H4ns: I've read it, it doesn't explicitly say this isn't possible.
2015-01-18T16:17:21Z AeroNotix: but if it's not, oke doke
2015-01-18T16:18:02Z H4ns: i meant to suggest that you can export the symbols using export and only declare the package itself in the defpackage
2015-01-18T16:18:21Z H4ns: there is no actual need to export symbols using defpackage
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2015-01-18T16:18:57Z AeroNotix: oh, ok
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2015-01-18T16:22:00Z pjb: AeroNotix: the problem is that you may need to ensure that the exports are performed in the compilation environment to avoid problems.
2015-01-18T16:23:04Z Grue`: if the code is autogenerated, can't you collect all the symbols from it and put them into generated defpackage?
2015-01-18T16:23:28Z pjb: You would use make-package instead of defpackage in such a case.
2015-01-18T16:23:39Z pjb: or your own defpackage macro.
2015-01-18T16:25:06Z Grue`: it depends on how it's generated, I assumed it just dumps a foo.lisp file to be loaded later
2015-01-18T16:25:20Z pjb: I assume a macro.
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2015-01-18T16:32:19Z guicho: not just package-all-symbols?
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2015-01-18T16:32:46Z guicho: I don't remember the function name correctly
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2015-01-18T16:33:20Z guicho: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm
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2015-01-18T16:34:58Z guicho: then (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel ...)
2015-01-18T16:35:34Z pjb: guicho: why do you want to export i, j and x?
2015-01-18T16:36:14Z guicho: it's not me, its AeroNotix
2015-01-18T16:37:37Z guicho: When I saw "how can I export all symbols in a defpackage" then the only thing came up to my mind is do-all-symbols and families
2015-01-18T16:38:05Z pjb: yes. do-symbols.
2015-01-18T16:38:44Z pjb: but again, unless the package is some run-time data structure (and then export is useless), you don't wan't to export indiscriminately.
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2015-01-18T16:40:20Z guicho: I see. that's the point in "use make-package brabrabra".
2015-01-18T16:40:30Z guicho: thanks
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2015-01-18T17:29:54Z AeroNotix: Grue`: it's autogenerated in a format I don't control.
2015-01-18T17:30:03Z AeroNotix: non-macro
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2015-01-18T17:34:13Z pjb: With this, we can help you very well.
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2015-01-18T17:36:07Z AeroNotix: pjb: sarcasm?
2015-01-18T17:36:13Z pjb: yes.
2015-01-18T17:36:17Z pjb: More details?
2015-01-18T17:37:01Z AeroNotix: pjb: protoc-gen-lisp generates a file with a (package ...) decl but no (defpackage ...) form
2015-01-18T17:37:08Z AeroNotix: it's a protobuf compiler
2015-01-18T17:37:24Z pjb: Do you mean in-package?
2015-01-18T17:37:27Z AeroNotix: pjb: yeah
2015-01-18T17:37:46Z pjb: isn't there a parameter to tell it what package to use?
2015-01-18T17:38:16Z AeroNotix: pjb: what do you mean?
2015-01-18T17:38:21Z AeroNotix: (in-package #:com.aphyr.riemann)
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2015-01-18T17:38:32Z AeroNotix: it just creates that^ for the in-package call
2015-01-18T17:38:42Z AeroNotix: how can I depend on that package with asd files without a defpackage
2015-01-18T17:38:57Z AeroNotix: I'm not super familiar with asdf/et al so I might be misunderstanding what I need.
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2015-01-18T17:42:31Z pjb: asdf deals with systems, not packages.
2015-01-18T17:43:12Z pjb: systems have dependencies, which are other systems, and components, which are files (basically).  files have dependencies which are other files.
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2015-01-18T17:44:35Z AeroNotix: so in this particular case I could just put the protoc output as a component not a separate system in my library?
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2015-01-18T17:50:50Z pjb: (let ((pname '#:com.aphyr.riemann)) (make-package pname :use '()) (protoc-gen-lisp #|in hard coded package|# #|in what file?|#) (load #|the file that was generated|#) (export (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:list-symbols pname :sorted nil) pname) (setf (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-file-contents "package.lisp") (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:sexp-for-package pname)))
2015-01-18T17:51:17Z oleo: all that cons piracy.....
2015-01-18T17:51:20Z oleo: lol
2015-01-18T17:52:46Z AeroNotix: pjb: I'll take a look, thanks
2015-01-18T17:53:11Z pjb: then you write a asd file to load package.lisp and the file that was generaed by protoc-gen-lis.
2015-01-18T17:53:14Z pjb: p
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2015-01-18T18:54:03Z xyh: when use MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND one always has to bind all return values ?
2015-01-18T18:54:07Z xyh: * using
2015-01-18T18:54:55Z nyef: xyh: Any values bound but not returned will be NIL, any values returned but not bound will be ignored.
2015-01-18T18:55:23Z nyef: The other fun thing is to DESTRUCTURING-BIND a MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST form.
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2015-01-18T18:58:24Z clop: hi, i'm trying to write a quicklisp package; my .asd file starts with (in-package :asdf-user) and this seems to make ccl/sbcl/cmucl happy, but allegro complains that :asdf-user does not exist... any ideas?
2015-01-18T18:58:39Z clop: i seem to be able to load other quicklisp packages successfully, e.g., (ql:quickload "bordeaux-threads") works fine
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2015-01-18T19:00:34Z pjb: DESTRUCTURING-BIND a MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST is not fun for the consing.
2015-01-18T19:01:04Z pjb: clop: don't put any in-package form in your asd file.
2015-01-18T19:01:14Z nyef: pjb: A sufficiently smart compiler can elide the consing, or at least stack-allocate the data.
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2015-01-18T19:02:28Z xyh: nyef: "a value bound but not returned" must was returned by a function, in who's one cond-clauses there written such thing as :: (VALUES 1 2 3)  while in another cond-clauses there written such thing as (VALUES 1 2) .
2015-01-18T19:02:34Z xyh: right?
2015-01-18T19:02:42Z clop: pjb: thanks, ok i'll just remove the in-package there
2015-01-18T19:03:04Z nyef: xyh: Basically, yes.
2015-01-18T19:03:22Z pjb: xyh: (list (multiple-value-bind (a b c) (values 1) (list a b c))  (multiple-value-bind (a) (values 1 2 3) (list a))) --> ((1 nil nil) (1))
2015-01-18T19:03:57Z xyh: thx pjb
2015-01-18T19:04:00Z xyh: no way to use &key in the multiple-value interface?
2015-01-18T19:04:05Z pjb: no.
2015-01-18T19:04:22Z nyef: No, that's what the destructuring-bind and multiple-value-list thing is for.
2015-01-18T19:04:38Z xyh: oh! I ll look
2015-01-18T19:04:49Z pjb: (DESTRUCTURING-BIND (a &key b c) (MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST (values 1 :b 2 :c 3)) (list a b c)) --> (1 2 3)
2015-01-18T19:05:08Z pjb: but it's silly.  if you want to return list,  return a list!
2015-01-18T19:05:24Z pjb: (DESTRUCTURING-BIND (a &key b c) (list 1 :b 2 :c 3) (list a b c)) --> (1 2 3)
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2015-01-18T19:07:21Z clop: hrmn, now when i do (ql:quickload "mylib"), allegro complains about the (in-package :mylib) form at the top of main.lisp, even though it's defined in package.lisp, which is before main.lisp in :components (it works fine on ccl/sbcl/cmucl)
2015-01-18T19:08:15Z nyef: clop: If you're not using :serial t in your system definition then you need explicit dependency data.
2015-01-18T19:09:24Z clop: nyef, aha, thanks! that seems to have fixed it
2015-01-18T19:09:42Z clop: i didn't realize the components needed their own depends-on stuff
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2015-01-18T19:14:51Z pjb: clop: asdf = makefile
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2015-01-18T19:17:38Z clop: n
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2015-01-18T20:18:37Z xyh: even when I do NOT check the arguments of type in my function, sometimes I get [Condition of type TYPE-ERROR],
2015-01-18T20:18:38Z xyh: so SBCL is refering type for me ?!
2015-01-18T20:20:46Z PuercoPop: why would uiop refuse to list a git/objects dir? is the #\. interpreted as a special char in a pathname?
2015-01-18T20:21:10Z shka: xyh: some functions in the sbcl perform type checking
2015-01-18T20:21:11Z ehu: Xach: one question that interests me: if common-lisp.net had run better git services (such as gitlab), would you have uploaded Corman Lisp there?
2015-01-18T20:21:13Z shka: for instance, cons
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2015-01-18T20:21:22Z shka: or sort
2015-01-18T20:21:35Z xyh: is it that true if I have a function called STRING->TITLE, very likely I do not need to check type of arguments explicitly?
2015-01-18T20:22:22Z shka: if it is function that is supposed to work on specific type, i would suggest to declare type
2015-01-18T20:22:31Z shka: it makes debugging easier
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2015-01-18T20:22:57Z shka: you can even get warning on compile time
2015-01-18T20:23:52Z shka: xyh: the real question is: are you completly sure that those type-errors comes from your own functions?
2015-01-18T20:23:56Z shka: since i don't think so
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2015-01-18T20:30:16Z xyh: shka: I will declare type.  and, yes, not directly from my function, my function is labeled "2:" in "Backtrace" of sldb. (but pretty good for SBCL.)
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2015-01-18T21:45:01Z Xach: ehu: no
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2015-01-18T21:47:03Z Xach: ehu: can't discuss more at the moment, sorry
2015-01-18T21:47:08Z Xach must run
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2015-01-18T22:00:26Z francogrex: https://github.com/stuij/armish interesting
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2015-01-18T22:36:03Z ehu: Xach: np. I hope to learn more later.
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2015-01-18T22:54:29Z yenda: What would be the recommended tool in cl to fetch a file from an url ? Would cl-curl be the equivalent of the curl library in python ? Is it how it's supposed to be done in cl ?
2015-01-18T22:55:12Z nyef: I usually just use DRAKMA, but it may-or-may-not do what you need. I typically care more about data than about files, for example.
2015-01-18T22:56:04Z yenda: well it's acutally jsons or xml or html from a sparql endpoint
2015-01-18T22:56:58Z nyef: Give DRAKMA:HTTP-REQUEST a try, then.
2015-01-18T22:58:00Z yenda: yes thanks, cl-curl was actually linking to it as well saying it does the same and is in full cl
2015-01-18T22:58:13Z pjb: CL-CURL is Completely Upposite of Regular curL.  So it cannot serve to fetch a file from an url.
2015-01-18T22:58:41Z Grue`: drakma downloads files very well
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2015-01-18T23:46:05Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all. I have a file in this format: http://paste.lisp.org/+343B and Id like to use lisp to parse it as s-expressions. How can I EVAL each expression at a time from the file, and how can i write the inner-most functions so that they take their args as strings even though they're not quoted in the file?
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2015-01-18T23:47:08Z pillton: JokesOnYou77: Use READ and you get the s-expressions. No EVAL required.
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2015-01-18T23:47:46Z nyef: JokesOnYou77: You probably can't do what you want with the standard reader or EVAL.
2015-01-18T23:48:40Z JokesOnYou77: pillton, even without the quotes on the strings?
2015-01-18T23:49:11Z pillton: They will be read as symbols. You can use SYMBOL-NAME to get the string.
2015-01-18T23:51:01Z JokesOnYou77: Cool! And how do they need to be separated in the file to get then one at a rime?
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2015-01-18T23:54:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: JokesOnYou77, This looks neat. What are you doing with the parse trees?
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2015-01-18T23:55:57Z commoncreative: is there anyone who knows Common Lisp in Australia?
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2015-01-18T23:59:25Z JokesOnYou77: Petit_Dejeuner, training a reccurwnt neural network for document classification.